Are zoos good or bad for animals?

did he play? I've got to know. Spindale, North Carolina. I can say honestly that I've been to Spindale, North Carolina. Did you go there to see him? Yeah? You mean he's a big fan actually, and he's spent half an hour talking about his life. That guy's had it rough man. Yeah, you should check him out. He's interesting. I mean he was part of my childhood for sure. You should have gone. He played some old it. But he actually has a podcast in case you Yeah, he's got a podcast. Yeah,

it's pretty good too. It's him like telling stories, talking and then playing a song and like he'll talk to somebody like off camera or off mike or whatever, like what did I forget or something like that, and then you'll hear something muffled and we're like, oh, yeah, okay, and he'll start playing. Is it called millsappen? That's what I call it. I think it's called like the Ronnie Millstap Show or something. Yeah, and we met him too. Actually,

of course you're like eight people there. You could know it was packed. We definitely skewed the median age tremendously. Yeah, there was a lot of old folks there, but went to Dollywood right afterwards. We were definitely the only people from Atlanta there for sure. Cool. Yeah, Chuck, I love that that intro. Thanks Chuck. Yes, have you ever seen a chimpanzee masterbait? Uh? Yeah, I have you have. You're not the first person I met who's seen that? What

you saw it at the zoo? Uh? Yeah? I mean is there any other answer than yes it was at a zoo. If I say it was hit my friend Roger's house, authorities are going to show up at you have seen that. I've never seen it. I think you've seen on YouTube. See. I think that that is a normal behavior, as I understand that they are primates after all, as are we. Um. But I think that you could make an argument that there's such thing as doing it

too much among chimpanzees. And if you did notice that your chimpanzee was abusing himself a little too much, you could make a case that that chimpanzee was experiencing zookosis. You just dropped the mic, Josh just left the room literally, thank you good night. That's it. Yeah, zukosis, man, that's when animals in captivity start doing strange things like uh pascing like a bearable paste in a circle for hours on end, or a chimp might abuse himself, or a

make the Saints cry. Cheetah might uh can like a bathe itself too much like self groom, how cats do like lick rash like holes in their body and stuff. Yeah, there's even worse stuff too. Um. A guy named Bill Traverse who's an actor from the UK who appropriately enough was in a movie called Born Free uh he uh. He was an animal rights activist as well. In he coined the term zukosis um and it described some pretty horrific behavior. Like you said, a lot of it is

found in the wild as well. But it's just too repetitive. It's over and over and over again. It's constant. Like animals groom in the wild, but they don't groom until they have sore spots on their skin. Um. There's other stuff that they don't normally do in the wild, like smear their feces on, you know, the windows of their enclosures. Um,

self mutilation, like chewing their own tailor leg um. There's a there's a kind of bulimia that some primates exhibit, uh in captivity, where they vomit, eat their vomit, and then vomit again. Uh, just over and over. I don't maybe out of boredom, maybe out of frustration or anger. But the point is you see this among animals and captivity. You don't see this kind of behavior among animals in the wild, which indicates what some people would consider a

problem with zoos. Let's get down to it, discuss. Yeah, our zoo's good or bad. And obviously we've read the same article, so you can make the case for both, right, Yeah, Well, I guess we should start with good since we've already indicated a hint of the bad, just a hint, just a hint. The good let's talk about some pros on the zoo side. Um, zoos have gotten a lot better in the last four thousand years, and a whole lot better in the last like thirty years from what I've seen.

Like when I was a kid and went to the Atlanta Zoo, it was the tile room with the guerrilla in it. And the monkey bars are not the monkey bars, the cage bars. Monkey bars were to play on right, I'm gonna play they didn't have monkey bars. But I mean if if they're the bars to the cage for a monkey and closure, they are technically monkey bars. Yeah what I'm the low nd on the totem pole, am I talking about? Yeah, that's that's a good thing. M uh.

But they come a long way in the last like thirty and forty years and trying to create um more. The miniature habitats that they normally would live in the fences are gone now replaced with like moats, so they can't get to you, obviously, because that would be bad. Zeus have kind of kept in step with um the progress of mental institutions. Yeah, you know, they've gotten a lot better. Same with zoos. Apparently, Uh, they used to procure animals by going into the wild and taking them.

Have you ever seen the Mystery Science Theater three thousand short catching Trouble? It is so unsettling you should check it out. Okay, So they used to go out procure animals, like they just go out to the to the planes and like get some giraffes and bring them home. They don't do that much anymore, although I do have some

examples we'll get too later where they still actually do that. Yeah, now they have keptive breeding programs, yes, or a lot of animals are born in a zoo they never knew the wild, which he would make the argument that that's a lot better than having memory of Oh I used to live in a five thousand square mile range and now I live in a square feet area. And uh, they also, Josh, are trying to help restore endangered species with breeding programs and releasing them back into the wild.

So that's that's some good, right, that is good. Yeah, I mean and the California condor, Right, that's that's one that's usually held up as an example. Uh, not too long ago, the California condor was on the verge of extinction. Um, and the San Diego and Los Angeles, who's got together and said, let's let's bring this vulture back. Let's get

this vulture back up and running. Okay. So they had a in flying and they had a captive breeding program, and um, they took the population the world, the global population of the California condor, which was just relegated to California, um from less than two dozen birds to a d seventy not self sufficient even better, Chuck is the um pair David's deer right? Tell us that story. Well, this is a this is a Chinese deer. So what I

like to say, it is a deer from China. And this deer had had had it been bred in captivity or was extinct, and then they re introduced it to the wild once they bred activity. How how did it happen? Uh, they went extinct in the wild, but they happen to have a few in captivity. Yeah, and then they eventually released I think four into the wild for the first time and another self sufficient, self sustaining, which means they get it on. Yeah. They're a good looking dear too,

so they don't they don't have any problems. Now, I just mean it's a it's a you know, majestic animal good looking. Also, zeos often serve as a better home to animals that are like part of traveling circuses. Um, you remember our own aquarium here and Atlanta rescued. I guess the whale shark, both of their whale sharks. One was in Mexico, I think, and like a tank it could barely turn around in And now it's got the biggest tank in the world. And we swam in it.

We did. It was cold, big dudes. Yeah. Uh, and there's polar bears that have been rescued. Leo. The snow leopard. Yeah, taking from Pakistan in two thousand seventh, wasn't was in great shape. In two thousand seven in the Bronx Zoo said give us that snow leopard, bring him over here. Yeah, that was my Bronx dude, Oh I got it. Okay, what else, Josh? Oh, they have their care We know a lot more now we're we're about animals and what

they need in the kind of habitat. So the care taking of the animals and zoos has gotten way way better over the years. Yeah. Again, the at the Bronx Zoo, they just released there or they just opened their art vark exhibit new and improved uh. And apparently art varks were notoriously difficult to keep alive and happy because their termite diet is really hard to replicate. But they got it down to this uh insectivore chow in meat slurry diet, which sounds I wonder if it says new and improved

now featuring live art varks corpses, it's much improved. No flies buzzing around them, Josh. The A lot of zoos give back financial The Bronx Zoo is channel more than three million dollars towards conservation projects in Africa, and sometimes they pair with groups like the Nature Conservancy to work not even just within their zoo, but in other states to uh. I think who is a Toledo zoo was

working to restore butterfly habitats and Ohio. Yeah, and I have to tell you the Toledo Zoo for the size town of Toledo, the Toledo Zoo and the Toledo Art Museum are world class, really great zoo. Yeah, it puts Atlanta Zoo to shame. And then you can go to Tony Pacals right, Tony Pacos Pacos hot Dog. Yeah, you can get uh. Yeah, the best hot dog on the planet from Tony Pacos. Feed it to the I feel like cleaner. Uh and Josh, research and scientific research is

obviously a big part of what zoos do nowadays. Okay, so that was like the well I got a step for you. Oh sorry, that's right. In two thousand two, zoo's participated in two thousand two thirty research projects, conservation projects, and more than eighty countries, which is pretty good. Yeah, and we shouldn't just poo poo that and go, you know, Willie Nilly buy it now. And you have to make the case that yes, zoos are helping in some way,

shape or form. Right, Like, imagine the deer, the pair David's deer, right, Um, that would not be around anymore. That's that species would be extinct if it weren't for conservation efforts among zoos. Right, condor perhaps California condor might be gone. Maybe loss of the vulture. Apparently those things

are huge. I read an article once where this guy was um standing on a cliff in California and he heard this, and then all of a sudden he just got really loud, and right up in front of him, this enormous condor just flew up and had been had been hunting, I guess, in this canyon and came up along the cliff's face and just flew like ten ft in front of him. He said, was just huge and probably the most thrilling thing that's ever happened to them. Yeah, they're big. I saw a bunch of them in Napa

Valley on my recent trip, like tons of them. They hanging around the vineyards because when you're plowing a vineyard you'll dig up like rodents and stuff. So the vultures follow along behind the tractor literally and like go down there and eat up nice good for them, all right, Chuck, let's let's talk about the bad. Yeah, we get the ugly and the good down. Yeah, let's talk about the bad. You mentioned that the um that zoos are big on conservation, right,

some say they are well in the US. If you are an animal exhibitor, meaning that you are showing animals for money, you have to be licensed by the U. S t A. Yes, there's about animal exhibitors in the US and they range from like the San Diego Zoo to the place in Arkansas where you drive through and like an Ostrich sticks his head in your car, right and go call the police. Exactly. Yeah. Um, about two hundred of those hundred are actually members of the American

Zoological and Aquarium Association. Those are the up and up. Now, the a c A has far higher standards than the U. S d A for its members. Um is stricter safety requirements. Um. It's they forced conservation spending among their members. So um, you know, when you're not a member of the a c A, those other twenty four or hundred animal exhibitions in the US are spending nothing on conservation. And the other problem is the members of the a c A spend about three percent of their take at the gate

on conservation every year, which is not that much. I mean, it goes kind of far, but not far enough. Uh. And also the the I think a hundred and forty six reintroduction programs took place in the twentieth century, sixteen were successful. Those are the status. You don't get, No, they just say we did a hundred forty five programs, and most of those programs were um, undertaken by the US government. So zoos are getting a lot of credit and taking a lot of credit. Actually, um, in the

public mind, in the public consciousness. They've very successfully carved out this place where hey, we're here. It is to save the animals, and the idea that they are a business that makes money off of people coming in and looking at the animals has kind of been washed away, although it's still very present. It's zoos are very much businesses, you know this condourse. Yeah, only about two thirds of

those worth strong enough to live. Yeah, that's sad. So you don't see that stat on the front end they got plowed under the front end of the tractor rather than flying in the back end. But they are I mean, part of me says these programs only sixteen were successful, But I mean they were trying at least, so I will give him that. Well, yeah, but I mean, like dead animals don't usually give you an e for effort,

you know. Um. And I think part of the other problem is and I don't mean to Hammer's zoos like I do, see both sides of this coin. This isn't this, This isn't me just like, yeah, we talked about the good, now let's really get to it. Um again, there's that that pair David Deer. It wouldn't have existed had it

not been for zoos. But I think by and large, if the reason zoos exist is because of encroachment on land, Like there's no there's a mind toward conservation, but there's not a mind toward preservation, and that's really where the mind should be, the mind and the money, right, I mean, if you take an elephant and put it into a

little enclosure, it's gonna go nuts. Elephants are Actually that's one of the big ones as far as uh people not trying to be a pun master there, but it's one of the big animals that people are trying to get out of zoos. Like, if you're not going to shut down a zoo, at least get the elephants out of there. Yeah, And there's actually a website Josh called Save Wild Elephants dot com, and um, some zoos are starting to get rid of their elephant habitats and and

they should honestly. I mean, elephants are used to traveling about fifty miles a day in large herds, and in the in captivity, they're you know, standing around an enclosure all day alone or with maybe a buddy or two. Right, So they're very social, highly social animals. That travel great distances, and no, they shouldn't be in in captivity at all. Yeah.

The Detroit too actually got rid of their two elephants and closed down their exhibit, and the director of the zoo said Asian elephants should not live in small groups without many acres to rome, and they clearly shouldn't have to suffer the winners of the North. That's the other thing you know, think about is they're this elephant in

the Detroit winner Are you kidding me? Now? And even worse as a uh, poor elephant called Maggie the elephant who in two thousand seven, during a cold snap at her home at the Alaska Zoo, was kept for days on in and this little inside enclosure because the zookeepers were like, she can't go outside, she'll freeze to death. And they brought in a treadmill that was big enough for and she wouldn't use it. Apparently the public finally just went crazy over it because it's a treadmill. Yeah,

who likes a treadmill? Nobody? Nobody. I've got some more horror stories for you, Josh, if you want to hear. Yes, Tatiana Siberian tiger at the San Francisco Zoo in two thousand seven, escaped the substandard enclosure that she was in and was shot to death after she killed a person by police. So that happened. Um the Dallas Zoo, a guerrilla name Jabari tried to escape by jumping over the

walls and moats and was fatally shot by police. Witness later reported that teenagers were taunting the animal with rocks are to escape? Remember that? Yeah, so these little kids throwing rocks at this gorilla and then, uh, all of a sudden, the gorilla escapes and the cops shoot it down. This wouldn't happen if the grillos in the wild. I think. Did it get that kid? Though? Didn't he get his hands on one of the kids. I don't know. That's not that's not in here. Uh. And at the Virginia Zoo, boy,

they're really doing a great job. They had ten prairie dogs die when their tunnel collapsed on them in their habitat. They had a rhinoceros drown in the moat that was trying to you know, the moat that they used as a barrier. Uh. They had a zebra narrowly escaped death after jumping into the lion exhibit, which obviously she had passage, and another zebra lost her life when she bolted from a holding pin, struck offense and broke her neck. So they're really, uh, really doing a great job there in

the Virginia Zoo. Well, I think that kind of demonstrates the problem is zebras are too stupid to not run in defenses, and if they're next then there shouldn't be fences around them. I got another elephant stat too, let's hear it, man. They studied records of forty elephants and they found that the median lifespan of an African elephant in a zoo is sixteen point nine years. Do you know what it is on the open plane? Fifty six years? Yeah, that's not good. That's quite a drop. It is. Another.

Another argument that's made in favor of zoos often is that they educate the public. Um studies have actually shown that people come out of zoos less informed than they were before, and um with this kind of false sense of security that zoos have it under control and they don't really need to do anything to for conservation or

preservation efforts. So zoos could actually be counterproductive in that regard. Yeah, and you know on that note they say that, um, the signs and the zoos, which you get is a little information about their species and diet and where they're from. But you never, if you notice, you never get any information on their normal behavior in the wild because you're not seeing it. So you're not really educating on how the animal really is. You're educating them on how they

are in this small enclosure. And even then it's just a sign like this zebra likes to eat this plant. This chimp loves to vomit, eat its vomit and vomit again, and then spirits poop on the windows. Right, not funny. And I did want to mention to how we said earlier that they don't go out in the wild and

catch their animals anymore. Not quite true. In two thousand three, the San Diego Wild Animal Park and Lowry Park Zoo captured eleven African elephants elephants elephants a species that is threatened, and they captured them from their natural habitat and Swaziland, and I guess brought them back to the zoo. And then I've got one more really sad one that Jerry is going to not listen to. Part of the problem in zeus, Josh, is that we like our cute little

baby animals. What happens to cute little baby animals? They grow up, they grow up, and many times they get shuffled around after they're not cute anymore. Two different zoos moving around, it's not good for an animal. There was a chimpanzee named Edith born in the nineteen sixties at the St. Louis Zoo, and Edith was a big hit

because she was a cute little baby. Edith grew up like all animals do and wasn't as attractive, so they shuffled her to five different facilities over the course of the years, eventually landing at a roadside zoo in Texas, and after an undercover investigation, they found Edith in a filthy concrete pit, hairless, living on dog food. How sad is that? That's pretty? Said Jerry. Did you hear that

she's she's not listening. But I mean, I don't want to like throw the gauntlet down too much and say think about this when you're going to a zoo, but you know, think about this when you go to a zoo. Oh yeah, if you see an animal pulling its own hair out, Yeah, chewing its own tail off, or doing other some other bizarre saddening bay. If you should feel to that ad and you should tell somebody about it,

you should contact somebody about it. Um Uh, it's it's it's everyone's own choice how they view a zoo, obviously, but if it gets to you, then do something about And there's plenty of organizations out there that somebody can join if they find that they are opposed to the concept of zoos absolutely. Uh. Pete also wanted to point out there are a few forward thinking zoos, progressive zoos that are trying their best to do right, like Monstory Zoos.

So the Baltimore Zoo, good for you, Detroit Zoo, we love Detroit Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium, and the North Carolina Zoo are apparently doing a pretty decent job of giving back. What was the last one? North Carolina? Okay, So Atlanta's not in there? Huh. No, Atlanta's not in there. Grant Park, you've been there lately? Um? Year or so ago? Two years ago? Um? Have you heard of the lu Gen Zoo? No, but I'll bet it's in China. It's in Argentina, maybe l u J and maybe it's not Lujon.

They have an awful zoo where you can go and sit on the back of a lion, or get in the cage with a tiger and pet the tiger, or bottle feed a bobcat and you can do this when you pay your fifty bucks. And it is a truly terrible thing because you're not supposed to ride lions. No, people aren't supposed to interact with these predators like that. If the Darwin Awards have taught us anything, that you have to sign a thing when you go in there saying that if I get killed, then it's not your fault.

Then it's just thinning the hurt. But I don't usually do this. But there is actually an online petition against this this place. It's at the petition site dot com and they need ten thousand signatures and there even so, even if you like zoos, you don't like the Lujon zoo. It's not a good thing. And what about Chuck. You know, we we talked about zoos. What about aquariums? What about sea world? Should a killer whale be kept in a little tank? Of course, it's gonna eat it. Strainer at

some point. Yeah, I've blogged about that. Yeah, that's it's a killer whale. Which camp are you? I don't know. As far as zoos go, I don't know if I want to say every zoo should be shut down, but definitely a lot of these animals shouldn't be kept in captivity, like elephants. What do you think? I cannot answer. That is all in my head. Now, there's always something going on on the Stuff you Should Know blogging their Chuck Shure, Josh. You can visit the Stuff you Should Know blog anytime

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