Samuel Hartlib and the Hartlib Circle

I know this person, Samuel Hartlib, who will talk about some more a whole lot today, originally was born in Prussia. His name is from the German side of his family, his father's side of the family, which would lead one to say Heartlib. And it's spelled a million different ways if you look at various historical documents. But because he did most of his work in Britain and most of the writing about him has been in Britain, most scholars about him pronounced it Heartlib, and so we're just going

to roll with that, recognizing that he too. I don't know where he landed, if he had a preference or not. I suspect probably his contemporaries also pronounced it that way once he was living in London. The name Samuel Hartlib probably does not exactly spring to mind when people are

thinking about influential figures of the seventeenth century. But he was very connected to a lot of the names you would think of, and he served as this sort of conduitive information to many of them and made connections among them as he sought to promote his own ideas regarding theology and education, which he saw as being very closely tied to government and successful government, as well as this really overarching goal in his life to provide ready access

to information to anyone and everyone about like the latest scientific developments. You'll see references to the Heartlib circle in a lot of writing about these people. Heartlib never called his network of people that he corresponded with anything. That name Heartlib Circle wasn't coined until the twentieth century, and that happened then because there was a surge of scholarship about his work in the nineteen twenties and thereafter after a fortuitous turn of events brought his life's work back

to light. Samuel Hartlib was born around sixteen hundred, probably in Elbing, Prussia, to a German father and an English mother, so Elbing is part of modern day Poland, and in Polish it's pronounced very differently from that, more like Elblong. He's one of the many cases we've had on the show recently where this early life is not well documented.

In a biography written by gh Turnbull in nineteen twenty, the biographer notes that there's no record of Heartlib in the birth records from Elbeing at the time, and there are also not any records in the baptismal records from the churches of the city. He doesn't appear in any of the school records of Elbing from the time when he would have been a child, so there are just a lot of question marks about his early life and education. There are mentions of a George Hartlib who is believed

to have been Samuel's brother. Even Samuel's higher education comes with a lot of debate. He has long been cited as attending the University of Cunningsburg starting in sixteen fourteen, but there are once again no solid records to really back that up. A more recent biography by Charles Webster, which came out in twenty twenty five, says that there's actually more substantiation that Samuel was in Silesia and enrolled at the Academy at Briggs starting in sixteen five fifteen.

When did he leave there another unanswered question. We do know that hartleb went to the University of Cambridge, but that two has inconsistencies regarding the timing. Sixteen twenty eight is frequently given as the first year that we can conclusively say he was living in England, but in the latter twentieth century additional correspondence has come to light that indicates that he was definitely there before that, in the

mid sixteen twenties. And even in saying he went to Cambridge, we really have to clarify because he does not appear to have actually enrolled in the university, but did study informally with some members of its faculty, and even after that he returned to Elbing after his time at Cambridge, So that whole like right up to the late sixteen twenties, so much guesswork going on regarding his background. It's very foggy. Indeed,

he became friends with John in sixteen twenty eight. Durry was born in fifteen ninety six in Edinbargh, Scotland, so he was around the same age as Heartland. Durry was a Protestant minister and was in Elbing in sixteen twenty eight, and the two men met there soon after that this, a series of interlocking conflicts known as the Thirty Years War, which spanned from sixteen eighteen to sixteen forty eight, made

Elbing an increasingly more dangerous place to be. Sweden was using this port city as a base and a staging ground in the struggle for the control of the Baltic Sea. So Heartland went to England, and this time he stayed there. Durry did as well for a time, and the two of them continued to be close friends. On January twentieth, sixteen twenty nine, Samuel married a woman named Mary Birmingham. Some accounts show her last name with an M like Birmingham.

Unclear to me which of those is accurate. We also just don't know a whole lot about Mary, although the two of them were married for years and they had at least six children together. Most of what we know about their kids is because later in their lives they lived near samuel peeps and he wrote about them. Heartlib was an active promoter of the need for reform within schools and Protestant churches. John Durry was his friend, but also one of his influences and ultimately a collaborator on

many reformist texts. Derry sought to reform the church by uniting the fractured Protestant factions. Heartlib agreed with this idea, and he put forth the idea that if the church could be united in England, then the whole country would benefit. And this is also where a little bit of a

confession has to come in for me. I wanted so much to include lots of Heartlib's writings in this episode, but let me tell you that is a slog He was deeply verbose, and in addition to the somewhat stilted writing of the day that you might see in any text, he was even more stilted than that. As an example, here is a portion of a pamphlet that he wrote in sixteen forty seven titled Considerations tending to the Happy Accomplishment.

So the point of this work is to make the case that if England can reform its religion, everyone will benefit. As Tracy just mentioned, this is the most easily accessible passage in terms of messaging that I could find quote, and least any might make a doubt of this last position, let us a little enlarge ourselves thereon, to make it more apparent from the undoubted maxims and reasons of a true reformed Christian state, such as we are now called

to be. If we take notice of our condition first, then we conceive that the glory and happiness of a state go hand in hand together, so that everything which may add unto the true glory is also fit to increase the happiness, a vice versa. On the other side, whatsoever doth add unto the true happiness, is also fit to increase the glory of a state. Basically, if we're all happy, the whole country will be happy. But he has to put a lot of extra words in there.

Samuel Hartlib also believed that education was vital for everyone, and one of the efforts he made early on during his time in England was the establishment of a school. This attempt was in Chichester in sixteen thirty. Although that school did not draw enough students to stay open, Heartlb closed it almost immediately after founding it. It lasted for less than a year. Not long after that, he started a correspondence with John Amos Comenius, who became another huge influence.

For a little background, John Amos Comenius was born in Moravia, in an area that is now part of the Czech Republic. You'll often see him described as being Czech if you look him up today. He was a minister and an educator, and he developed an ideology that he thought could lead to a deeper connection among the warring countries and cultures

of Europe, and that was universal education. Comenius thought that if everyone was truly educated, they would understand and accept their fellow humans better and would be less likely to start conflicts with one another. One of the cornerstones of this idea was that everyone should learn to read Latin.

He thought that this would improve access to a wide range of historical information and open up the wealth of Western knowledge to all to heartlive in a lot of his colleagues, these ideas of educational access and a united religion were two sides of the same coin. This was at the heart of Hartleeb's thinking. He believed that God granted every person a talent, and that if they shared that talent with others, everyone would learn from one another.

They would all know more, They would understand each other better, and people would recognize a divine fine hand in play for all of that to happen. Teaching everyone to read would also ensure that they could study the scriptures and become better Christians. Coming up, we will talk more about the influence of Comenius on Heartlib, and we will get to that after a sponsor break. The writings of Comenius were very important to Heartlib in his ideology Comenius is

sixteen thirty two. Writing the Gait of Tongues Unlocked was one of many that really captured Heartlib's attention and formed the foundation of his thinking regarding education. He started translating the writing of Comenius for the English audience, and this offers another opportunity to share his proclivity for using just

lots and lots of words. The title for this translation of Comenius, as one of his many writings, was a Reformation of Schools, designed in two excellent treatises, The first whereof summarily showeth the great necessity of a general reformation of common learning? What grounds of hope there are for such a reformation? How it may be brought to pass?

Written many years ago in Latin by the reverend godly learned and famous divine mister John Amos Comenius, one of the seniors of the exiled Church of Moravia, and now upon the request of many, translated into English and published by Samuel Hartlib for the general good of this nation. So brevity was not his strong sush we love a long title on this, but I was reading many of his titles, I was like, oh, oh, my friend, goodness.

But that relationship that he developed with Comenius really established Heartlib as a connecting point of European intellectuals. Comenius actually visited England in sixteen forty one on the invitation of Heartlib, and he stayed there for several months, meeting with many of London's preeminent thinkers and scientists. Heartlib was associated with so many other famous names of the seventeenth century in

the Western world. I don't think Holly mentioned in the outline, but he came up in our John Evelyn episode like somebody had given him a paper and he gave that to John Evelin was another example. John Milton's pamphlet of Education was dedicated to Heartlib, and that's because the Reformer had convinced Milton to write it. The entire thing is

addressed to Heartlib. It opens with quote, mister Hartlib, I am long since persuaded that to say or do ought worth memory and imitation, no purpose or respect should sooner move us than simply the love of God and of mankind. Nevertheless, to write now the reforming of education, though it be one of the greatest and noblest designs that can be thought on, and for the want whereof this nation perishes, I had not yet at this time been induced, but

by your earnest entreaties and serious conjurements. Milton goes on to share there at the beginning of the book that Hartley is somebody who deeply respects and at the same time could be said of quote men of most approved wisdom and some of highest authority among us. Yeah, basically just saying, like all of us smart guys think Hertleib

is great. But despite the numerous people that Hartlib was connected to and the network of correspondence he developed, it was the friendships Heartlib had with John Durry and Comenius that were the most important to him. On March thirteenth, sixteen forty two, the three men signed a pact written in Latin that outlined their shared goals for promoting reform

and education and religious unity. And the document is really fascinating because, in addition to those goals, it also has this very cute vibe, in my opinion, of we will BFFs forever, and this is our secret. We are going to read only the most abbreviated versions of the points of the pact, and they are as follows. Number One, that we shall have before us the sole aim of manifesting God's glory and of promoting public support for our

fellow men. Two, so that with God in his goodness, we may pursue this end, We set ourselves the task of recalling to a better and fuller accord in their profession of religion, those who have already been called to acknowledge Christ. Three to the end that we may have

God's favor toward us. In this our purpose, we shall strive in daily prayers before Him, in turn, both for ourselves and for all those others wheresoever they may be, who, whether we are aware of them or not, are now stirred by God to like endeavors, or will be stirred hereafter. Or we meanwhile promise one another that in these matters we shall do nothing except it be by mutual design and consent. Five. We promise that no one of us will conceal from the other any of his thoughts, even

his innermost thoughts, which have to do with this proposed goal. Six, That no one of us will take an inflexible stand against the purposes agreed among the others, but will rather yield to them, even if he may not perhaps be able to perceive fully the strength and weight of the reasons that are put forward. Seven, we promise that we will preserve complete faithfulness in our dealings with one another. Eight.

We also take it upon ourselves to freely admonish one another, but as between close friends, for any errors that may be committed out of human ignorance. Nine it has seemed proper, and we faithfully so promise not to divulge to others these conditions of our pact entered into in the side of God, chiefly for our conscience's sake, unless by common consent, and then to those alone of whose suitability for future

association in our treaty we are assured. Ten. Finally, if anything further is discerned by common accord as likely to benefit this our religious fellowship in God. It must be subscribed to. These conditions of this are packed and will be equal to them in force. So they struck this pact just as the conflict between parliamentarians and the Crown

in England was reaching a boiling point. We've talked about the English Civil War and its causes in a bunch of other episodes, so we won't go into depth here. But the shorthand is that Charles the first, with no checks within the government that could stop him, enacted a number of policies that were damaging for a lot of his subjects that made him really disliked. That included dissolving the parliament. He re stated it when he needed help in the form of financial backing for his war with

the Scots. Parliament began to use its reinstated power immediately, including prosecuting members at the King's Circle. Five months and two weeks after Heartlib, Durry, and Commenius signed their pack, the English Civil War began. Heartlib and his friends were parliamentarians. He and Durry stayed in the country, but Comenius left. Still, the pact remained very important to the three men, and

sometimes it is cited as a guiding force in Heartlib's life. Yeah. Also, just for clarity, Durry didn't stay in England all the time. He is sometimes described as being sort of itinerant. He moved around Europe a lot, so just in case shelike, did he live there the whole time? No. But in addition to his translation work and his prodigious correspondence was seemingly everyone, Heartlib also wrote original works. Many of these works were influenced by by other reformers and thinkers of

the day. For example, Francis Bacon is often cited when scholars mentioned Heartlib's seventeen page pamphlet An Essay for Advancement of Husbandry Learning, or Propositions for the erecting a College of Husbandry, and in order therein too for the taking in of pupils or apprentices, and also friends or fellows of the same college or society. He published that in

sixteen fifty one. In it, he laid out the need for agricultural education that offered a continuous stream of the latest information and advancements in the field, so that farmers could produce the best possible livestock and crops. Throughout all of this work, Hertleib was connecting people to people and

more importantly, people to information. He was supported throughout his time in England by personal patronage, with people and families paying him with some degree of regularity so he could continue in his work, but he wanted to establish something more official means to disseminate information that would not just be him working alone, but would have a dedicated staff sending out published materials and recording new information. This was

what he called the Office of Address. In sixteen forty eight, Heartlib published a pamphlet that was written either by him or by John Durry. That comes up a lot when you look at the HEARTLB papers, where it's like either Dirry or Heartlib because they've worked on things together sometimes and their writing style developed in a very similar way.

But that paper was titled a further discovery of the Office of Public Address for Accommodations, and this read in part quote, whereby the good of the Kingdom and the

benefit of all inhabitants thereof may be greatly advanced. There is one very easy to be set afoot, which is called an office of Address, whereby an orderly and effectual correspondence and agency will be settled for the advancement of universal learning, and all manner of arts in ingenuity, whereby ready helps will be offered to supply the wants of everyone without prejudice, unto any whereby all manner of commerce will be mainly facilitated, and whereby everyone will be easily

accommodated with such things as may be lawfully used and are usefully communicable unto everyone from each other in a well ordered society or commonwealth, as it is more fully specified and explained in the printed discourses that describe the foreset office. Listen, This is one tiny part of a very very verbose paper. Continuing, it is therefore most humbly desired that the Parliament would be pleased to resolve upon these following particulars as the matter of ordinance to be

passed by both houses. One that Samuel hartlib Esquire be appointed Superintendent General of an offices of address Number one indicates that there were additional points, and there were points two through four. Asked that heartlib be paid two hundred pounds annually for this work, that he could charge users a small fee to pay the wages of the clerks and registers, and that quote a convenient great house be

set aside for Heartlib to establish this office. The rest of the document goes over the particulars of how the office would be run and emphasizes the great benefit this would be to all. While the Office of Address was never formally established, Heartlib was granted an annual pension of

three hundred pounds. That number is sometimes reported as two hundred or even one hundred pounds, depending on the source, But as biographer George Turnbull explained in the nineteen twenties, that payment was not really the portent of success that

it seemed to be. He wrote quote, Ultimately Parliament officially recognized him and made arrangements for financial support, thereby raising Heartlib's hopes of the near approach of the millennium to the highest pitch, but they only flattered to The political atmosphere was too troubled to allow of the prosecution of such magnanimous designs, and as has already been indicated, the financial support promised was irregularly paid and finally ceased altogether.

So this annual payment was more like lip service to Playkate Heartlib. They didn't even keep up with it. This must have become a men'sly frustrating for Samuel Hartlib, as he believed the Office of Address would be the culmination of all of his life's work. It would enable him

to fully manifest his goal of education for all. He'd already been doing this sort of work at his own personal expense, and he knew that people found it valuable, but it was simply not perceived as valuable enough for Parliament to put money and resources behind it, Just the same with the money he was awarded when it was paid out. Heartlib did continue to expand his personal efforts to sending materials and correspondents throughout his wide network of associates.

He continued to publish pamphlets offering information on a variety of topics, although agricultural subjects were particularly frequent. We will talk about some of Hartlib's other writing and the nature of his connection to the Royal Society after we hear from some of the sponsors that keep the show going. One of the projects that Samuel Hartlib worked on for

decades was something he called ethe Verities. This was an ongoing record snippets really of information about interesting developments in the realms of science and culture and things of note that were related to advancements in human knowledge. It was sort of like Peep's diary, but it didn't include any of Hartlib's own day to day doings unless it was specifically about acquiring some of this information. He started writing Femerites in sixteen thirty five, and it continued until sixteen

fifty nine. For example, an entry from sixteen thirty five reads Bortwit knows a countryman of his who is about to make a collection out of English divinity books nb. It will confer with Darius about it, as also about

his own work, which is a catechism of conscience. A sixteen fifty note states, quote the twenty eighth of February, mister Worsley sent me the receipt to be given to mister Osmusingh concerning the spirit of Tartar, which he got from mister Morion as a special present, who seriously affirmed unto him that it cost five hundred guilders. Spirit of Tartar was a reference to a distillate that was used

in alchemical experiments, probably why it was so pricey. Uh. One of these entries from sixteen fifty five reads a woman in England burning a smock one of her women neighbors came bouncing at the door and entreated with all entreaties that she might come in, which if she had a obtained she would have killed. But not prevailing, she went home and was found dead. This is a true story related by doctor Mayerne to the King. These are the kind of entries in the f Marites in more

Tame Fair. In sixteen fifty four, Hartlib published True and Ready Way to Learn the Latin Tongue, which was of course part of his effort to make more religious texts readable to a wider range of people. He published several dozen pamphlets and various short books throughout his life. In sixteen sixty, the Restoration reshaped England's government, as Charles the Second became king and the monarchy was re established. As many of the decisions of the Long Parliament were rolled back.

Hartlib officially lost his annual pension. That was also the same year that the Royal Society was founded, but Heartlib was not invited to be a member, neither was John Durry. There were eight fellows elected in the original sixteen sixty group, and there was some crossover among them with Heartlib's unofficial circle.

You may have heard if you've done any reading about the early years of the Royal Society of the Invisible College, and that was another similar group to the Heartlib Circle, which included men who shared information with one another through correspondence and in person meetings. George Turnbull and other scholars have written about this and just how much connection there was between Heartlib and the founding fellows of the Royal Society.

Many of those men are certainly mentioned in his correspondence. Irish chemist Robert Boyle, who came up recently in Our Modern Inventions that Aren't Episode and who is on my short list, wrote to Heartlib on more than one occasion, and there's evidence of direct connection with others who were Founding Fellows and even Mormon who were invited to become

fellows later. There were clearly a number of them in his correspondence network, and quite a few of them sent information to him to be cataloged and shared, and in some cases he consulted with them to get their take on various scientific matters. In some cases, Samuel Hartlib also acted as a sort of informational middleman, receiving information from one of these men with instructions to give it only to one specific person. Another one of these men who

became a fellow. He was clearly trusted and was considered knowledgeable about all manner of subjects. So for a lot of people, the question arises, why then, was Heartlib not included in the Royal Society. Turndall lays out some reasons.

For one, Heartland may have been seen as a trusted friend and a conveyor of information, but maybe not as an equal quote Heartlib seems to have gone little further with these men than to act as a receiver, seeker and disseminator of information, including letters and writings about them and them, and thereby to help them in their work.

Turnbull also cites several instances where people mentioned that Heartlib appears to be very interested in the collection and dissemination of their scientific writing, but not in the writing itself. And in one case there's a letter to Hartlib from German theologian Henry Oldenberg that states that, quote, you care

not much for the philosophical discourses of our clubs. So he wasn't directly involved in the activities of the group that eventually became the Royal Society, although he was clearly on friendly terms with its members. It also seems like Hartlib himself was not all that interested in the Royal Society. He saw it as a piece of a bigger vision

that he had of a democratized knowledge utopia. Yeah, he wrote about this idea of a utopia many times, and the founding of a society like this seemed like, of course, that's the next step to get to my utopia. Following the loss of his occasional pension from Parliament, Hartley really had a very difficult time financially. He had never really had a lot of money, and what he did have

he largely funneled into this universal Education project. Even before sixteen sixty, though, when that money was cut off, Hartlebb was having a variety of health issues, including ulcers and possibly kidney stones. His son in law, Amanding Claudius, was his doctor and worked to manage his various ailments, although it sounds like there really wasn't a lot of relief there. When he did get relief, it was quite temporary. In sixteen sixty he had some sort of attack that left

him with temporary limb paralysis, although he did recover. I was reading various descriptions of it, and it didn't quite sound like a stroke to me, although it could have been. But that incident scared him a lot, and he became constantly fearful that it was going to happen again and that he would be what he called useless to make things worse. He also had a number of significant life stressers in the early sixteen sixties. His wife Mary died

in sixteen sixty. In sixteen sixty one, he had some sort of problem with the business associate that had been storing his books and he lost all the remaining copies of his book catalog. Then there was a fire at his house. He blamed a young member of the house staff for mishandling a stove for starting that fire. While the fire was caught before it could burn the house down, it did cause a lot of damage. Heartlib died on

March twelfth, sixteen sixty two, in his London home. Yeah, it is possible he had another one of those intense events that caused some paralysis, may or may not have been a stroke, etc. Were it not for a somewhat wild series of events, Heartlib may have faded almost entirely from history. His papers, which were extensive and included his years and years of correspondence were purchased after his death by a man named William Brereton, a member of the

Royal Society, who took them to his family's estate. After they were organized with the help even of some of Hertlb's associates. They were stored there at Brereton Hall, and

then everybody kind of forgot them. The Brereton estate stayed in the family until eighteen seventeen, when it was sold to a merchant named John Howard, and then the house changed hands at least one more time, and possibly more than that before George Turnbull, who we've referenced a couple times, who wrote that nineteen twenty biography we mentioned earlier, was contacted by a lawyer who said that he had a huge stash of HEARTLB papers that had been brought to

him by the current owner of the property because they had found them, did not want them, but thought they might be useful. Turnbull, who was teaching at the University of Sheffield at that time, and this, by the way, happened after he had published his biography, had become the or most Heartlib scholar that anybody could think of, so

he was the obvious recipient of these papers. And he accepted them, and he brought them home where he worked with them until the end of his life in the nineteen sixties, and at that point Turnbull's wife gave the papers to the University of Sheffield. The school started a digitization project with the collection in the nineteen nineties and today the entirety of the heartlib papers is available online

for free. And it is through these papers that modern historians have really learned and understood the true extent of Heartlib's influence and impact, and new analyzes of these connections continue to be published today. As we said, that other biography just came out months ago, and that biography is also in the spirit of Heartlib, available for free online. Even though it's a nice book, it is in our show notes, so to a look for it. It is

the one that is written by Charles Webster. It is going to be one of the last ones in our show notes. Paid yeah, and you can go there's literally on the publisher's page. It's like get book for free and you just pop right there and get the whole thing is PDF, nice, perfect, perfect. So if you want to get the in depth, real real on Samuel Hartlin, do it there. You go. You have some listener mail. I do, and this is how to title an email to make sure I read it. Boys and Barry Murder. Yeah,

this is from our listener. I don't know if it's pronounced Andrea or Andrea either who writes. I'm a high school history teacher, so I just wanted to thank you for the continual outlet to learn and grow. I am very behind and just listen to the eponymous Fruits episode. I grew up in Anaheim, California, very near Pearson Park that was mentioned as part of Rudy Boysen's development project for the city. The park also has a cactus garden named after him. We also have a boys in Park

in Anaheim named after him as well. I currently live in Fullerton, that was mentioned as the city mister Boyson lived in. My house is over one hundred and ten years old, which is ancient for the West Coast. When I moved in, there was a strange growth of boison berries in my backyard. When you mentioned boison had berries growing in a ditch in his yard, I immediately had an overwhelming feeling of guilt. What if my house was mister Boyson's house. I felt guilt because I intentionally killed

those berries a few years back. They were riding my last nerve and pricked me one too many times. Anyways, I may have murdered a historic plant, and I will feel guilty until I'm able to find mister Boyson's exact address to vindicate myself. I plan on doing some research in the City Library history room during my summer break. I've had my PhD in stuff you missed a history class, but since having twins, I have been continually behind. Listen, no shame in that game. I don't have twins and

I can't keep up with anything. No uh, Andrea continues only my second time emailing. In these frustrating times, I have appreciated the allusions to fred strations in politics because I have had to deactivate social media and stop listening to NPR as a form of self preservation. The positive is I am catching up on your podcast much faster. Attached are some pictures of pie from a three fourteen

Pie Day celebration. The moon pie reminded me of George Maliez, and I just thought you would enjoy the Lichtenstein pie. My pet tax is my dogs, Barack Obama and my cane Corso mix Rosie the riveter German shepherd and Loki, my twelve year old black cat. Wishing you positive vibes

in these wild times. I can't remember and I did not go back and look at my outline for that one, but I think the original ditch got identified, so I think you're probably safe because you would know, and those original you know, the bois And farm that is still producing boisonberries today has plants in some cases that are from or directly related to those original plants. So I'm here to you of your guilt. You're fine. You didn't

kill anything historical. The history grows on in many places. Also, man, Loki looks like my kind of cat, and Tracy's all black, but the facial expression is the real cell that is a like yeah for real with the pictures kind of face. Your pups are so sweet. I want to kiss those snoots. And I love pictures of pie for sure. The moonpie is very beautiful and I love it. These are spectacular. So thank you, thank you, thank you, because this is a very fun email to read. Thank you again for

being an educator. I feel like we cannot think educators enough right now. Thank you for sharing your story and I'm glad that I can banish your guilt. I hope. I had this vision in my head of like a rosary meat out of boys and berry somebody else, but to anybody but me anyway, Thank you, thank you, thank you.

If you would like to write to us and tell you about plants that may or may not be historical that you're worried you've killed somehow destroyed history again you haven't, you can do that history podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. You can find the show notes for all of our episodes, and this one, of course included at Mistonhistory dot com.

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