Wrestling with Kayfabe (with guest Colt Cabana)

a pro wrestler. And uh and yeah, we're gonna chat a little bit about pro wrestling in this podcast. But do not let that scare you away, um, because I know most of you, probably for most of you, wrestling is not your thing. And if some of our listeners are wrestling fans, a couple of our listeners are actually wrestlers, if I remember correctly. But but but trust me, trust me on this journey we're about to take you on. That's right, because by the end of this podcast, you're

going to say it all makes sense. Now. I know Robert and Julie wanted to talk about wrestling because I now see how it has everything to do with my life and my reality. Yeah, I mean, it's a big ticket item to try to fill, but we're gonna try to take you through that with wrestling and something called Kabees. So first of all, I mean, you mentioned Roddy Piper,

so your memory is of pro wrestling. You're not a pro wrestling fan, but you have you you grew up in the eighties like me, and you had a brother exactly, which meant that I've spent a lot of television time rooting for some of these characters in the eighties, most notably Hulk Hogan for the Giant I mean soft spot there. Yeah, well, of course there was the Princess Bride tie and so yeah, I mean, of course, and that that's where we got to see his tender heart right there. Wendy Richter, okay,

she she was backed by Cindy Lauper. Lauer was in in the WWF yes to try the rock and wrestling thing. Yeah yeah, So, I mean I was drenched in Whole Comania, which sounds kind of gross that I was. Well, um, I was a little late for Whole Comania, not because it wasn't on TV, but because I wasn't really allowed

to watch it like I was. I remember like it would come wrestling would come on that like at odd times, like suddenly it would be a Saturday night and they would just be wrestling on it, and and I'd be like, Oh, what's this. This looks kind of interesting and uh, and then my parents would be like, Oh, you don't want to watch that, don't don't worry about that. They put pds on for you. Yeah. And of course when we lived in Canada, we had no access to pro wrestling

that I remember. But but then eventually, like junior high years, I started, you know, I had a little more time to an access to a t D on my own, and then I started really getting into it and exploring it and uh. And to this day, I still I don't follow it religiously. I mean I kind of followed religiously, but I don't watch it religiously. I just I keep an eye out, keep my ears peeled, and if I hear about a match it's that's really good, then I'll

go and check it out. And it might be something from the US, it might be something from Japan or Mexico or what have you. Um, I'm even tempted. I've even been out to a couple of wrestling shows here in Atlanta. I'm really intrigued. There's one, uh that just started up where their whole gimmick is, um that is, the wrestlers are all monsters. So it's like Dracula versus a wolfman. Oh. Nice. Nice. So that's kind of like the Lucha libre concept just taken to another level. Yeah.

So to just to give anyone who's not really familiar with with what pro wrestling is on on a large, larger national and international level, you have varying shades of it. Like here in the US, you have the whole sort of whole comania, larger than life characters that are to the naive you or they're having a big fight, a big crazy fight in a ring and then at the end somebody wins and then uh. And then in Japan they have it there. It's it's pretty big there as well.

It's a little more steeped in honor in tradition, but and and at times it's just utter wackiness. So it's very Japanese and that that sense. Uh. And then it's also huge in Mexico where we have, of course Lucha Libre, which I think everyone has at least been introduced to the the the visual flare of lucha libre by this point, um, you know, crazy costumes, guys flying all over the place. But then at its at its roots, it all comes back down to guys grappling with each other. Now, pro wrestling,

here's a big spoiler for everyone. Pro pro wrestling is quote unquote fake. Now you get into trouble Yeah, I know, I know, you get into trouble with with the with the term fake because fake is such a big word that it's it often takes on this negative connotation of uh that that implies that what's going on does not involve talent, does not involve um, you know, skill does not involve physical wear and tear, uh and and pro wrestling involves all of those things. It's it requires highly

skilled individuals to do it right. Uh. There's a lot of thought that goes into it. It's it's ultimately storytelling in the ring, like a physical storytelling, and it's very well choreographed and it has to wait you choreographed and or um improv because there are guys guys that have worked with it with with each other enough. They go out there and they don't necessarily know what all the little moments are going to be, you know, the big

moments that are gonna happen. They know how it's gonna end, maybe, But but there's a certain feeling each other out and going with the flow of it that's really kind of an improv kind of vibe um And I say choreographed in this sense, because you and I were talking about this yesterday that you have to have a feeling for what's going to happen and how to execute certain moves in order not to actually hurt the opponent or do

in a way that you don't hurt yourself. Yeah, it's a cooperative battle, a cooperative fight, a cooperative wrestling battle between two individuals or four individuals or what have you. A referee thrown in there. It's also part of the act. And but and then there's but again, it's a lot of wear and tear involved, and individuals do become injured. So you can read more about If you want to know more about pro wrestling, go to how stuff works

dot com. We have an article called how pro Wrestling works. We have an article called how Lucha Libre works. They're both find um fine articles that really give you a little more in depth about what they are and how they work. But we're not going to spend a lot more time on that. Instead, let's also go back in time.

Let's go to a time before pro wrestling. Well, before we go to our time for pro wrestling, can we talk a little bit about the universality of it, Like why wrestling, I mean, why did it, um take such a hold of you as a youngster and as as a man. Now, yeah, well pro okay, so pro wrestling? What is it that captivates people? Um? I think, I mean a lot of it does come down to conflict. Um. Like, I'm I've never been one for like team sports. I'm

really not into sports. But if I watch a sport, I'm more inclined to watch something that is more about one person against another, like say singles, tennis or something.

Um and and so pro wrestling you have you Generally, it's to varying degrees, it's almost always a good guy and a bad guy in the ring, locking up, engaging in this pure physical battle, a test of strength and a test of wills to see who is going to be the victor, and uh, and then and then there's a lot of and they're basically also using an unreal form of martial arts, like it's the roots as will discuss their in actual wrestling and actual um, you know,

physical grappling. But they are all these layers of fiction that have built up over it, and so many of the moves are are fantastic and just would would never occur outside of a fictional environment, and that just adds to the to the flare. That's what I like about

wrestling is because it does have that universality of struggle. Right, everybody struggles, and it's highly symbolic because you don't actually want to go mono mono with someone normally right, um, it's slay him or her, but you may want to release your aggression, right or your frustration. And that's what I think is so um basic to wrestling is this, as you say, this man against man, the struggle. And I think, and this is kind of a joke, but

it's kind of not. Um. I think this is why festivals took people's imaginations, at least here in the United States. I don't know if this is the Sinfeld thing. This is a Sinfeld episode about wrestling, your father during the holidays to air the grievances of the past year. And I won't go into the long history of that, but you know, once that aired on television, people began to actually have festivals, celebrations, And I do think that, um, it's struck a nerve there in and airing grievances and

again this highly symbolic act. Yeah, and it certainly when you throw in the characters. I mean in pro wrestling, you especially say in Mexico, where the masks are so rich, and you'll have like one character and there's an even bigger divide between good guys and bad guys. There's less in between, there's less gray area. It's the the rudeo's

and the technicos. So on one hand you have, you know, guys in like devil maths and skulls and snarley beast faces, and then the other more you know serene and u and positive images like guys with crosses on their face. It's because you know, a heavy uh, you know, a Catholic element down there. Um, you know, guys with would say like a cat face, like like blue Panther comes to mind as a mass that was in a week like embodying like an animal spirit and something like positive

that you would you would strive for. And so these these symbolic characters are are locking up in the ring and it brings to mind um like non wrestling uh passion plays, you know, where you'll have a certain members of a village dress up as like an evil outside force and then others um dress up as the victor and and reenact myths of that that are vital to a community or people, so that you have that basic tripe that's so important to humans because versus evil, and

you have all this pageantry. And we're going to discuss in a little bit why this pageantry matters, why it matters to aspects of science or economics, um. But before we do that, we need to unpack the sport a little bit more and tell you about some of the basics behind it. Yeah, because again, you watch pretty much any pro wrestling product on TV now in any country, and there's gonna be something that's that's unreal about it. And ultimately it is uh. It is to some degree

like choreograph or at least cooperative. It is a it is a performance. So how did we get to the point where we have this performance of this sport versus its original roots, because you don't see this in every sport. I mean, you can make a case for say Harlem Globetrotters, isn't is an exposition a fake team having a fake basketball game against another team. But you don't see that in most sports. So so what is what is unique

about about pro wrestling? Okay, so you go go back in time to like the earliest aspect of human culture, and you have people law king up. You have people wrestle like wrestling is is pretty much as old as humans because at the very base you have conflict, be steel conflict between people that involve clawing each other, dragging each other to the ground, biting, jabbing, butt, punching the whole nine yards but punching, but punching band in most

most most combat sports. So so so just imagine that I want to just like cave me in tearing each other up and rolling around the ground trying to kill each other and strangle each other. Out of that, out of the basic skills involved in that, you end up developing a metaphor for that kind of combat. Because you live in a society that needs cooperation, right, you can't

go around just brutally beating each other to death. Yeah, you need to, like you say, are your grievances and open a way that doesn't end up with somebody dead. You end up with this this kind of proxy battle in the same way that sport itself is ultimately kind of a proxy war. Uh. Wrestling is like a proxy tooth and nail battle to the death. It's a metaphor for that. So everywhere around the world you have some

sort of tradition of wrestling. And and if you want anyone who wants to learn more about the various types of wrestling out there, I highly recommend you check out the blog wrestling roots dot org. Uh. They go, they go into just all these different they travel around, they their photos, there's video, and they go into the different traditions, like, for instance, there's traditional Turkish oil wrestling, which a number of you're probably familiar with, but I was not aware of.

I was it does it sounds like, you know, Turkish delight, um, But I was not aware of just how much oil is involved. Like it's not just like a little bit like greased yourself up for the tanning bat or something, but lots of olive oil like leaders of olive oil poured over them and also down their leather shorts, just you know, because it makes it harder for your opponent to get a grip on you. I guess adds the

passion of it um. Then likewise, there's also India's uh Kushti wrestling, which which is it is neat too because there are no points in this. You can only win by pinning, and you can also grab onto the shorts, like some wrestling traditions are like don't grab onto the shorts, and this tradition it's okay to use the shorts for leverage, which I guess is like a sumo in that regard, because I think in sumo wrestling, yeah you had to grab. You had to explain that to me because I kept

thinking that people were getting pants. Yeah, there's no pantsing and custi. But Kusti is also interesting because they they the wrestling takes place on softened earth where they've poured out this ge mixture to the soil um, which which

is neat. You have this element of ritual to it a well, and there's just any anywhere on Earth you can go you can find some sort of culture of wrestling but as far as the the transition from these cultural folk wrestling traditions, uh, the transition from that into professional wrestling, we end up looking at European models. They are all these different European models of of of wrestling, of folk wrestling that were popular and continue to be popular.

But but certainly back in the nineteenth century you had a couple of things of note. You had you had the the catches catch can style of wrestling, and you had the Lancashire style, and they're closely related. They're closely related. There's this guy named J. W. Chambers and he was kind of a minor celebrity and he editor, he was the editor of Land and Water, and he started promoting a new grappling system UM that he called catches catchcan style,

first down to lose and uh. And this was this was a folk wrestling tradition that also wasn't completely groundbreaking because it was based on earlier models, but it involved guys locking up UM and you could pretty much apply any type of hold above um above the waist and and first down to lose is a big part of this too, because this actually changed the sport quite a bit,

because otherwise if you're looking at past traditions. You could have wrestling matches going on for days, meaning you know, the person hadn't submitted yet said hey, I give up, and so they would break for the day and resume the next day. Well, the Lancashire style, Yeah, I was

was like that. I was reading this book Wrestling by Walter Arms Armstrong, which is an eight nine book where he's just so it's this is a pre pro wrestling book talking about these different folk traditions and he has some a couple of bits I want to read from that about the Lancashire style. Um quote. Sometimes a wrestler will apparently make an unsuccessful attempt to wrench off the other's head, twist his arms from the sockets, or break his fingers, finally rolling him bodily over, all of which

are eluded in a simply marvelous manner. Their elasticity of their movements is at times something remarkable, as they struggle, ride, and twist four hours together before obtaining a fall. Uh, it would go on. Not only would have gone for hours,

but here here's another quote from the book. When a match is not concluded on the day appointed, the referee orders the competents to meet again and commenced wrestling after being waited at the same time in place every day except Sunday until the decision has arrived at So you would have this this match that would go on for dates. Uh you know, and they were like, you know, their their minor breakes as wells't it just constant action? But still it's just goes on for days and then and

then there's the brutality of weary. I read the part we're talking about people's heads being twisted. Um, but this is a quote from a book called Fencing that had a number of authors, but Walter Armstrong also contributed to this, and the quote goes with regard to Lancashire wrestling, there can be no question that it is the most barbarous of the English systems, and it more nearly approaches the

French dog fighting and tumbling than any other. A fair stand up fight with the naked fists is the merest skim milk, in fact, a perfect drawing room entertainment in comparison. So, yeah, the the rules of it were pretty laxed. Yeah, it's basically like tried, don't crush your opponent's fingers, right, like this was sort of it would happen, It would happen. They would tend to say, please, don't break each other's bones.

And the reason why the especially the fingers that are the hands that they frowned upon that is because a lot of the people who were doing this, we're working class in parts like Shire, England, they're working in coal mines. So obviously if you crush your opponent's fingers then you're putting that person out work for a while. So there's a cultural contract here. It's like this is wrestling is fun, but we all have other jobs we need to do.

That being said, the Lancashire style involved struggling on the ground, catching legs, which the catch system that is described in this book does not, catching legs, twisting limbs, bending fingers, um. And so it was so you had two things going on here, three things. Actually. First of all, there's something about it. It's really entertaining. People really getting into this. They enjoyed doing it, they enjoyed watching it, but it's super long. They commitment commitment to to to act in

and commit it to watch. And then it's really violent, and you would have situations where you know, individuals would become really badly injured in this sport. So how do you make money off of something like that? Right? You're trying to your promoter. You want to carry this around from town to town and and have these matches and people pay to watch them and and all of this. You don't want it to be that long. You want it to You want of a product that you can

market a little better. Um. You know, it's like how many people really have it in them to go see Wagner as the ring cycle where you have to go like multiple days to see the whole opera. You want to you know, condense version. You want something smaller most people do, you know. So so let's find a version of this that fits into a smaller package. And let's find a version that doesn't injure the participants as easily, because these are ultimately the people that you're you're making

your money off off. You know. It's like we were podcasters and uh and writers and editors here at how stuff worth and general only the risk of injury on the job is low. It's more like you know, carpal tunnel syndrome and strained eyes, paper cuts. Well, there you go. What if we were using a type of paper that was like just cutting fingers off left and right. You't want to eliminate that paper because you need these people

to run the business, to keep the business running. And likewise with the wrestling, you need to make it a little less brutal. But you but the thing is when you take the if you take too much of the brutality out of it, if you say, all right, well, don't touch the fingers at all because we don't don't want to risk that, or alright, no grabbing the legs anymore, then you end up taking away from what is attracting

people to it. So what do you do? You start tweaking it a little bit with you start layering just a little bit of fiction on it. Right, and this is where you start to see some of the manipulation, uh, coming into the sport and just sort of mounting and

mounting as it progresses through history. Um yeah, like maybe it starts with all right, guys, when you go out there tonight, Um, just go like one hour instead of six, just one hour and also just kind of work together a little bit so that you don't, you know, injure one another in a really horrible way. Right, It becomes so much more about showmanship. But what I wanted to point out is that this is something that became very

popular all over the world. Um, as you already noted, in various forms, but this sort of catches catch can wrestling, and this Lancashire was actually exported when immigrants went to different countries like in the United States. Became very popular and it even hit the big time at the Olympics at one point in nineteen o eight, it showed up there. And I wanted to point this out because this is

just seems so fictional, but it's not. Abraham Lincoln actually was uh one of the stars of catch wrestling in the United States. Yeah, I mean, he apparently was a big dog in the sport. In fact, this is from a Sports Illustrated article The Civil Warrior Lincoln with this was described as an onlooker as quote the big buck of the lick, and um, this onlooker saw Lincoln give the notorious county wrestling champion Jack Armstrong the worst thrashing of his life one hot September day, more than one

sixty three years ago. The article goes on to say that that was the future president's most celebrated victory. Frustrated from the start by Lincoln's tremendous reach a k a his height, Armstrong began stomping on his opponent's feet. Lincoln lost his temper and a few tosses later, Armstrong lost consciousness. So I mean here Lincoln was a brawler, is what I'm saying, And and had some throws, he had some like that. Maybe there was a Lincoln suplex in there.

And I wish I could have Linken the pile driver. Yeah, who knows what he innovated? Yeah, And that the article that you were looking at there, it also mentioned that a few other presidents UM were involved with some type of wrestling at some point, like of course Teddy Roosevelt was was up to grappling around with the boys of the dust, UM, I would have been surprised he not. But but Lincoln was into the rough stuff. He was

into the catch wrestling. Yeah. And I think that that kind of points to the popularity of the sport and the fact that again it was exported and it started to show up at these county fairs. And then this is where you began to see these various counties loosely organizing themselves and producing winners from different regions of the country, and believe it or not, these regions eventually coalesced into

what is now the World Wrestling Federation. Well and well now it's the World Wrestling Entertainment, World Wrestling as the big billion dollar industry that it is today. Yeah, you mentioned the Olympics that, like, the history of wrestling in the Olympics is pretty interesting. Um. That was the first modern Olympics and Greco Roman wrestling was there. But the interesting thing about Greco Roman wrestling, it's basically European wrestling.

It's based in European folk wrestling traditions, particularly some French traditions. So it's really not all I mean, you can you call it Greco Roman, but yeah, you know, it's it's more like the central you know, Western Europe kind of vibe to it. Um. But it's only been in the Olympics regularly since nineteen o eight and uh and then in the nineteen o four Games in St. Louis, Uh. In that particular year, UH, a limited form of catches

catch can wrestling was there, but Greco Roman was not. UH. And it was the nineteen o eight London Games where we saw both Greco Roman and catches Catch can finally coming back. So um yeah, it is a sort of casual observer of of wrestling and Olympics. I always kind of thought, oh, I guess Greco Roman that's the real deal. That's the old stuff and and that's and it's been around forever, and that pro wrestling was the new stuff. Is that were you thinking? Yeah, yeah, just kind of

you throw it into that kind of dichotomy. But but it's not quite that simple. Um So anyway, but back

to blayering the fiction on. You know, like you said, you're going around to these differ and counties, You're you're you're letting the guys know, you know, work together, put it in a certain time frame that makes sense, and then all the other changes become naturally, like you can imagine all the every step of the way on on the journey from from catch wrestling to pro wrestling, because you might say, all right, well, you know, um, it would really make more sense if the hero one tonight

rather than the villain, or rather the villain should really win tonight, because then it's gonna make it all the more awesome when the hero wins the next night. So you start end up you end up throwing in narrative flows. Um, you know, think of things like everyone loves an underdog story, so that that you it's if you wait for underdog stories to emerge organically in a sporting environment, you know,

you gotta sometimes you gotta be pretty patient. But if you can orchestrate it, if you can spin it, and if you can you can say, hey, you're the underdog tonight and it happens, then you're improving the product that you're selling. So you keep going and then you can

then you get to the point where you're throwing. You're adding element to the physicality of the match, to the even the physics of the match that make it more flashy, that make it more entertaining, and decade upon decade, it just builds and builds into this into the largely unreal martial art that that you see in the the fictional performance sport of pro wrestling today, which he sees a system in place right that is giving us a measure

of predictability, but also giving the audience what it wants. And roll Ebarts, you sent me that's great article or rather essay by the French philosopher Roll Embarts, and he took on wrestling, and he talked about why it is um so intoxicating to people, and basically it was saying, you know, it's an I'm paraphrasing here, but he was physically saying that it's not a real image of passion that the audience wants. They just want an image of passion.

It doesn't have to come from a real place. And that's really the contract that the audience has with the performers is just give us a show. And um, we'll talk a little bit more about this in a moment, about how this show aspect is really reflected in our daily lives. But before we do that, we should probably take a break. Yes, let's take a quick break, and when we come back, we're just gonna talk briefly about the kind of death of Cafe um And well, I

guess we'll talk about what Cafe is. We really didn't totally describe it. And then also we will hear from an actual pro wrestler and podcaster, Colt Cabanner. All right, we're back, All right, yeah we are. And you know what, I don't think that people realize, but when you were talking about stamps dot com, you were actually wearing your wrestling outfit and your cape was waving in the wind behind you. That was my my promo I was cutting there. I felt like he sounded very like w W E

that that that would actually be great. I would. It's too bad the Macho Man is no longer with us, because I would love to hear a Stamps dot Com advertise for much of man of course, because he's he's

got or he had a lot of moxie. Right. And that's what we're talking about here when we're talking about how pro wrestling, what we think about it today, that the sort of fakery, uh, the illusion that's put forth or not so much the illusion anymore is predicated on this moxie and this ability to put forward a character and put forward these tropes and act them out. Um. And this is related to this term called kape. Yeah, because like we said, the gradual um addition of fiction

to catch wrestling. Uh, you can't just like the first night you did it, the first night that that you're out there and say and you say, hey, you guys are gonna work together on this and he's gonna win. You don't amount announced that to the crowd and likewise that it you just don't market the product like that. Uh. So you have this thing, this cape this uh this Carney talk for keeping the secret. You don't let the audience.

You don't let them marks know what's up. You don't you don't explain to them how the magic trick works. You don't let them know that there's a magic trick at all. If if one dude is acting like he's the you know, the healish villain, and the other guy is that is the face, the baby face, the good guy, they have to keep fooling everyone. They have to keep the act up because it's it's the act is what

they're selling. But yeah, that's this idea of cafebe and uh, it's spot that the etymology of this has its roots in a sort of pig Latin, right, So fake kbe, keep it fake, keep it fake um And that there apparently are various ways to say this, like kee fib, like that might have been the way that Carney's would

have said it back in the day. It is. Yeah, this is some straight up Carney stuff we're talking about here with this is but this is what has colored pro wrestling, and this is what is so interesting about and as you had pointed out, you've got the heel who is the bad guy, right, um, and you've got the face who is the good guy. So whole Covin was your tip goold face right yeah. I mean he was America, he was you know, and he was he

was our hopes and dreams. He was our vitamins eating, um, muscle gaining good guy, just out there fighting the good fight against you villains and of course foreigners. Um. Because that's that's another thing about restumes. You see it invoking various cultural fears and worries and topics, um, often in a cheap or exploitive way to generate heat from the crowd. That's right. And again though that this provides that catharsis

right to see this pageantry played out before you. Um. And of course a lot of these characters too, As you had said, they build up these narratives and these mythologies, and a lot of them turn right, so that the good guys, the faces sometimes might get overwhelmed by their egos and start acting like a heel. Uh. And then later on maybe they have some sort of redemped and so you get to watch characters fall from grace and

then to send back to two Hero Doom. I mean, it's that those are that's the kind of drama people want to see, and that's so that's the kind of

drama they orchestrated and presented. Now. The thing about KFVE, though, is that as time rolls on, as the product becomes further and further removed from actual grappling, and also and also when you're throw in TV and it just exposure, it really becomes more and more obvious that what is happening is something that's orchestrated, and especially to if you're if you know, you're involving people of different skill levels.

So there maybe two guys who can go out there and put on a like a totally believable match, and even the unbelievable things they can make seem real. But then you get some guys out there who are green and don't really know what they're doing, and you know, it's it's like watching a um a, a poor magician trying to do a trick with coins falling out of their pockets. Right Anyway, eventually it's not that well kept a secret. Everyone really knows and you know, it's more

like us Anna Claus level thing. Even among children, you know, where someone's like, hey, you know that stuffs fake, right, and they're like, no, man, it's not fake at all. But but but then it reaches a point though, uh in nine so the McMahon's have built up um, they've taken all these like independent territories, and they've really built up this this World Wrestling Federation. Then they're they're beginning

to roll in the dough again. These are the territories that were established in the nine hundreds in the United States. So again loosely organized, but this is what he evolved into. The McMahon family became sort of head of that. Yeah. Yeah, And and part of keeping cafeve though was that they were also there were things like the state athletic commissions were regulating the business in large ways, Like there was I remember reading that this guy Milmascaris, who is a luchador.

He would come up and work matches and there was like some sort of like some sort of law in New York where no one could wear a mask in a match, and so he couldn't go there to do to do his his matches because the Athletic um Commission was had this rule. So it really reaches the point that where it comes down to money, and so vincement man h breaks cafame in a big way. He hated

to pay state athletic commissions to regulate his business. So he just finally admitted, Hey, it's not a sport, so back off, and I'm not going to give you all of this money anymore because it's sports entertainment. It's not sport. Right into the audience care now because at that point everyone really knew. It's kind of like it's like Santa Claus. You know Santa Claus. You reach a point where you know, Santa Claus isn't isn't real. It is not a physical

reality that there is. It's fiction and myth and uh and and and you have to suspend disbelief. But it's still it's still entertaining. It's still something that you can involve yourself in. And so yeah, people still watch it. They suspend disbelief when they watch it. Uh. But it does make for a really weird kind of area because it's it's not quite like watching a movie where you're like, oh, you know, there's a there's an actor playing a character.

Like it's more like there's this actor, but he's pretending to be the character all the time. Um, and it's uh, it's we'll we'll discuss uh here. It's there's more of this gray area between truth and fiction. And that's kind of like that's kind of what the modern cafe is all about. Well, should we hear from Cult Cabana here? Yes, Yeah, let's uh, let's hear from Cult. Just a little introduction to those of you who are not familiar with Cult Cabanah.

He has about fourteen years in the pro wrestling business. He's wrestled for World Wrestling Entertainment, Ring of Honor, Pro Wrestling. Noah, that's a Japanese promotion, Uh, Juggalo Championship Wrestling, which is

exactly what it sounds like. The Insane Clown Possible, um Chakara, which is a really cool, like family kid friendly promotion, UM up North, uh National Wrestling Alliance, and then countless other you know, independence because there's still a lot of independent wrestling out there, uh, but more notably to a lot of you. He also hosts the Art of Wrestling podcast where he interviews other wrestlers and they just kind of talk about wrestling but also about life and all.

And it's a It's it's A it's a It's a really entertaining podcast. He has also been on Mark Marrin's WTF podcast, and he's also been featured on the Sound of the Young America. And if you want to learn more about him and find out and also check out some of his episodes see where he's performing, you can go to we love cult dot com and he has

all that information there. So I recently spoke with with Colt on the phone, and uh, and we were wondering to what degree we should keep Kfebe here and and I could act like I'm actually speaking to him live when actually I'm rereading my questions that I asked him, and then we're cutting in his his answers. But but I guess we should suspend Kfebe a little bit since that's what we're talking about. Uh So here we go. I'm gonna ask the first question, and Colt is gonna

can you ask in a wrestler voice? No? I think that disrespectful. Well, no, I'm just in the spirit of kfe No. Alright, So, first off, do you have a specific character in mind when you perform in the ring? I have a specific persona or character when I go out in the ring, it's it's a lot like who I am in real life. But I know that I have to be on and I'm not going to break away from this character and I'm going to commit no matter what because I'm on stage or you know, slash

ring and so so. Yeah, I want to keep to my character and and what I have going through my head for what I want to do in a specific match or instance. So based on your experiences, do acting and wrestling go hand in hand? I see, uh, I see a big parallel. I definitely see a big parallel to acting and wrestling. And I see it now more than ever that I've kind of dabbled or I'm putting the two together and correlation. More than ever, I see that they're the similarities between the both. I guess what

once I started once I was wrestling. As I was wrestling, I was never like, oh, I'm an actor. I see the similarities. But then when I started doing a little bit of acting in comedy, then you realize, holy crap, I've been acting and doing company for the past ten years in the wrestling ring. Now imagine a number of listeners at this point may have kind of Wikipedia and you look up Cold Cabana and uh and over there on the right, you'll see a list of aliases that

he's used in the ring. Different because most some guys in wrestling may go in and they're only ever like one name, but most end up using various names, various gimmicks,

various personas that they take on in the ring. Uh. Just looking at the list for Colt, he has wrestled as Chris Guy, as Colton Nevada, as the Goon, as Matt Classic, as Masked Flipper Number seven, as Officer Colt Cabana, as Punchline, as Scott Colton, which uh this is really as Scotty Goldman, as Twinkie the Kid, and Colt Daddy. Uh so Colt of all these characters, and granted some of these are just one offs that you know, maybe only existed once. Which one is the furthest from the

real you. I do character called Officer Cold Cabana, and I do that for the Insane clown Poss's Juggalo Championship Wrestling.

And the greatest thing about it, and what's the most interesting thing is that people have learned to love the character Cold Cabana, the fun lucky the fun, loving, happy, gold lucky professional wrestler, the nice guy of professional wrestling, and then they know it seems like it's almost like they're in on the joke of when I go and I become the bad guy at the insane clown Posse shows, and now I'm the Officer Cold Cabana and I'm swearing, and I'm vogler and I'm rude and I'm vowing to

take the Juggalos and arrest them one by one. And it's so completely different not only from who I am the person, but who Cold Cabana the wrestler is. Is that this character has taken on like a life of its own and in each of its own, and people really seem to love it, I think because they know that it's so far from who I am and what I am as a person. Now, do you ever find yourself carrying Officer Colt Cabana with you outside of the

ring when you go back in the locker room? No, No, I know I'll never come back after a performances Officer Cold Cabana and find myself in the same character. I think because I've been doing it for so long and I know exactly when I go through that curtain when the matches ended, to switch it right off. But when I'm in the middle of the action and the adrenaline is going and I'm allowed to do whatever I want, I definitely get carried away. And I definitely, I definitely um.

I love the fact that I can do everything I want and I and I. What people don't know is that almost like my real interpersonality will come out because I can swear and I could be vulgar and it's accepted and it's fine. So any like real life frustrations that I really have is allowed to come out in this character of Officer Cold Cabana, the bad guy. Because as Cold Cabana, the good guy, the fun, lucky, happy, go love, you know, loving guy, I could never let

that out or else my character would be ruined. But when I let it out as Officer a Cult, it's what it's expected. So when I mean, I'll get carried away, and for me it's almost therapeutic because I'm allowed to do it, and and honestly, the more carried away I get, the better the character is. So can you speak a little more about the blurred lines between fiction and fantasy and pro wrestling it's just that's the one big difference

between you know people. It's interesting because I think that's where the line of quote unquote fake comes from a lot. Is that your favorite movie that you go and in the middle of it, If um, you know Brad Pitt is in Fight Club, no one's going in the middle of that movie. This is fake. This is that they get drawn in there, enthralled and they love it and it's the greatest thing. And then afterwards you take yourself

out of that world. You know that that was Brad Pitt, not what was his name of the movie I forget, but Tyler And I think, yeah, right, that was Brad Pitt, not Tyler Dirten. But for us it's funny because as it's kind of as a as a businessman myself, and you know, I have to portray the character Cold Cabana at all times and that's I'm not I don't My business card doesn't say Scott Colton. It says Cold Cabanna.

And that's how I make my money. And it's a twenty four hour business, not only with the wrestling at shows, but then outside the shows and podcasting, and I have to keep up this, uh, you know, and the YouTube and Twitter and everything. It's all done under the guys of Cold Cabana, unlike where Brad Pitt would you know, tweet or do his business as Brad Pitt, but then he goes and has a two hour block of Tyler Dirton where he's performing is that character or if he's

in seven or another movie. He's going from character to character to character, whereas I am always going to be Cold Cabana and that's always going to have to pay my bills. So I asked, I always have to protect that character of Cold Cabana, and that's kind of where Kid comes into into play, is my protection of that character. So this is more or less the modern Yeah, it's it's hard because a lot of wrestling obviously has kind

of been exposed. People enjoy it for what it is now and the right the idea of KFB was to keep that secret of what's going on in the wrestling industry, so everyone thinks it's on the up and up and that it's a it's a full fight, you know, it's a full exhibition, I guess, or a fight and not an exhibition. And now there's yeah, there's different I guess ideas of Kape. Also, I don't want I think it's so insulting when someone's like, is it fake, just tell

me or whatever. And you know, a magician, no one ever said David Copperfield was fake. A magician is not going to go out. We all get the idea of what magic is and what illusions are, and if you're a good fan or if you're someone who loves that idea of magic or illusions, you're not going to be screaming that this is fake or I don't you know, obviously this isn't real. And that's the same idea of wrestling.

And the magicians have their world of cape of keeping their allusions to themselves, and us as wrestlers, we want to keep our allusions to ourselves, and it's it's better if it's not completely out in the open. For the fact that you will enjoy the show more if you allow yourself to kind of just kind of be stupid and just enjoy it for what it is. Good versus bad, heals versus uh, you know, baby faces, heroes versus villains.

That's the best thing about wrestling. And if you just stupefy yourself and enjoy the show, then you're allowing yourself to have a better experience, and that's when the cappe is kept in part. All right, So we're gonna pick up a little more with cold here in just a second. But at this point we want to mention a really cool article that we ran across that that really gets to the heart of way cafe is so fascinating for

non wrestling fans and for just people in general. And it's a It's an article called Kafade by Eric Weinstein, who is a mathematician and economist UM with the Norton Group. So you probably want of what is a mathematician and an economist care about pro wrestling? What is it about? Uh? In Weinstein's world, the altered reality of layered falsehoods uh, And that is kade, Like why does that matter to

the rest of us? Um? And it's interesting because this was a question that he was answering from edge dot org. Every year they pose an annual question or question to various thinkers, and the question he was answering was what scientific concept would improve everyone's cognitive toolkit? And so the first line of his essay says, the sophisticated scientific concept with the greatest potential to enhance human understanding may come not from academy, but rather from the unlikely environment of

professional wrestling. So this is what you were just touched on right there, because he's saying that this ca faving is existing h at every level of our society, is really pervading our cultural fabric Yeah. In his words, K fabrication is the process of transition from reality toward K fab and it arises out of attempts to deliver at appendably engageable product for a mass audience while we're moving

the unpredictable upheavals then impair all the participants. Um So again he's he's going back to what we've been discussing how traditional folk wrestling that is quote unquote real transitions into pro wrestling, which is quote unquote fake. And again not to get into the whole quadmire of fake, we've already discussed that, but just in the idea of how does reality become fiction and and and that process that that K fabrication that exists in between that what he's

talking about. He's saying that it's a feature of our most important systems such as war, finance, love, politics, and science. And um I was even thinking about Kfebe economics, Uh, in particular the sub prime mortgage crisis, because this was basically passing off crap mortgage backed securities as investment grade commodities among this group of financial institutions. And it's an example of this collective insanity that can be formed around

incorrect assumptions that gain acceptance because there are sources of status. So, in other words, the sub mortgage crisis that occurred was all because everybody was sort of playing along with this sort of Kfebe ization of of economics. When it came to that the housing bubble and to these um really crappy mortgage backed securities, they were passing it off as the real deal, right, because they wanted this This was system that we would only work if we could all

buy into this illusion. Yeah, like you come down to this, Uh, this idea that you know, the pro wrestling is this metaphor for that that exists for actual wrestling and for actual combat, and so you you can you can apply this model to for instance, journalism came up in Weinstein's articles an example, and certainly I think too, I think to science journalism since that's probably what I see the most of with my job, particularly space. Okay, so like

you can compare space exploration two catch wrestling. Uh. Catch wrestling was really long and at times kind of monotonous, uh, but but at heart there was something really compelling about it. Likewise with space exploration. Space exploration is really important. I mean, it's about who we are and where we stand in the cosmos. It's about the long term survival of the

human race and all of these these grand ideas. But if you just take a look at a peer viewed article or just some like doing the hard scientific data about something, it can it can come off a little boring. It's not it's not sexy, you know. And then so the science journalists swooped in and they take the core of it what's important, but then you know, they sex

it up a little bit. They maybe they add the instead of just being a black hole in the headline, it's a cannibalistic black hole, or it's a monster black hole. You start layering over a little fiction to dress it up and make it more presentable as a product. And and ideally you have journalistic integrity keeping it from going

too far. But but but yeah, you see, KFE, we want you to know what it is you see it everywhere well, and and he talked about it too in science, because if you have a certain agenda, then you would try to fit you know, certain data or elements to create that fiction. Right. And so when I think about it, and I think about it in terms of science, I think about erroneous studies that still have some sort of

weight outside of the science world. Really, and in particular, I'm thinking about Jenny McCarthy autism and um this false link between autism and vaccinations. Now, the study that she cited and the doctor has been discredited over and over and over again, but yet there is this false reality that has been formed around this idea and it gained status. And this is sort of a perfect example of k fabrication in our lives where we don't, as you say,

you don't really think about it that way. But when you look at these instances and economics, or in science, or in journalism in the way things that are reported, you began to see that it really is a system that we are all sort of buying, not all of us, but we tend to sort of buy into as a society. Um, So you sort of wonder, like where where if you strip it all away, what are the truths? Because we're talking about is perception versus reality? Um, this idea that

perception is exalted above actual reality. Back to a quote from Weinstein, he said, what makes KFE remarkable is that it provides the most complete example of the process by which a wide class of important endeavors transition from failed reality to successful fakery. So, um, let's go back to Colt Cabana, the professional wrestler and professional podcaster. Uh does the Art of Wrestling podcast? Go back to him with just a few more questions about the nature of cafe.

So do you see kfebe at work in the world around you? Yes? And you know these are my own, I guess thoughts. But it's because I've been engulfed in the wrestling world and I've seen I guess the art of trickery really is. What I've been doing is I don't believe anything for anything, and that's why these are my own thoughts. Anyone can have, you know, life and subjective, but I refuse to vote because I believe everybody is just corrupt and everyone's out for themselves and you know

who who? Every we hear on the news so much the just politics in general, everyone's taking money from this person, everyone's taking money from that person who's ever in charge because of wrestling and k FEB and the idea that you know, we're quote unquote working people all the time. That's how I kind of unfortunately look at life. But I feel that it's real. That's how life is, and

uh it's I think that's sad and it's unfortunate. But I think in every aspect, especially those higher power political aspects, that's going on all the time so much to the point that it's so disappointing and it's it's taken me out of that world. I really want nothing to do with it because I believe that they are they're using that world of trickery or cafebe or disguising or masking and um yeah, uh, boxing, football, even the realist of real sports. This is going on because it's almost because

it's business and wrestling, right. Wrestling was very popular in the very early nineteen hundreds of late eighteen hundreds, and the matches would go on for so long that some of these matches would be three, four or five hour matches, and the business people they said, our business is dying. We need to change this business aspect, in this business model, and it all comes down, I guess that's the American way.

It all comes down two dollars and cents. And they said, here's how we need to fix, you know, we here's how we need to fix wrestling. Wrestling as we know it catches catch can uh, two guys go in and the better man will win. And it got so boring or it got so long that they were losing their audience that they changed it, and they fixed it so they could make more money. And that's the American way. And that's every job, and that's every aspect. How can we change this or how can we make so how

so we can make more money? How can we get the more most bang for our buck? How can we make how can we make money? And that's in politics, that's in unions, that's in uh, you know, unfortunately, like you know police and fireplighteris and even the nicest of the nice I believe it all. It all happens because we're all driven by the almighty dollar, and especially I mean that's what wrestling is all about. Two is it's a business. Is how do you make money in this thing?

So as a as a fan of pro wrestling, and uh, but ultimately as an outsider to pro wrestling, you hear stories about guys who buy into their own gimmick who over time and ego gets involved, and you know, maybe they're portraying a monster in the ring and they start feeling like a monster outside the ring. Like I said, ego gets involved in things supposedly spin out of control. But but does that ever, does that really happen? Does

the fantasy ever bleed into reality? Yeah? Uh, I would definitely say that people start buying their own hype, they start believing their own hype, They start believing to the character that they are, and that is the idea that then they egos collide with egos and sometimes during a wrestling match, two people have egos and they don't think what should happen should happen, So they're gonna go and go into business for themselves and they're gonna change whatever

was supposed to happen. And that's when that great line of professional wrestling becomes Is this a work or is this a shoot? You know? Is this real? Is cafe ave happening? Am I getting worked? What's going on? And that happens all the time. And that's what I think is like the new thing that's drawing people to wrestling as opposed to the early, you know, nineteen thirties. This is the new era of what people seem to really enjoy. And not only is it in wrestling, but it's I

think we've all seen it with reality television. What's real in this show? What's not real in this show? And now it's such a blurry line that no nobody really knows, especially you know, paranormal activity or uh whatever that other scary movie was. And people seem to really like, you know, uh, that's the new culture that we're in. And it happens for sure in the wrestling ring, in the wrestling backgrounds.

You play this character, and again, once you get off set, you know, you're if you're this is a movie, it's not like you're ending this character. You have to be a part of this character seven because it's your it's your it's your living and when you when some people do that, they get caught up in it and it's very unfortunate, but it can also make for interesting television or interesting drama. Thanks for talking to us. Just to close out, give us a just a brief feel about

about your philosophy in the ring. What what does cult Cabana bring to the product. A lot of people know the world of professional wrestling is two mean men trying to beat each other up, and I always trying to take that aspect and change people's mind with it, because wrestling is an exhibition where two people are going in the ring and somebody's trying to win. I don't use anger or I don't use a Russian as my way to win. I use humor as my way to win, and I think that always makes for a real fun

match and people seem to like it. And because I'm a humorist inside the wrestling ring, my humor translates outside the wrestling ring, so people really seem to support and people really seem to relate and enjoy who I am as a wrestling performer and other things that I do in terms of the way I tweet or the way I podcast, or the way I have different comedic slash

wrestling ventures that I put out in the world. And I think when you put that all together, that you know that makes the ultimate showman or the ultimate entertainer or what you have it. So I like the idea that I've kind of crossed this line of not just a wrestler, but uh, you know, an entertainer for everybody.

So there you go. Thanks to Coult for taking the time to chat with us, I think as we're recording this season in Japan wrestling some matches, and again, if you want to check out his stuff, just go to uh we love Colt dot com. And just to close this out, I wanted to to bring up this question about whether or not this is something we can even avoid because we've talked about how storytelling, fictionalizing, creating realities for for ourselves is part and parcel of being human.

And it makes me think about those babies studies that we keep coming across in various ways in our research. Um, and I'm talking in particular about Karen Wynd, who's a Yale psychologist who has looked at babies and morality, and um, this is really interesting. Uh. I think we've probably mentioned this before, but kids as young as three months old can suss out these little puppet characters. Who is the good good guide, Who is the bad guy or the

good gal or the bad bad gal? And uh, not only can they suss them out, they they sort of have a preference for the one that is the good guy, usually the good puppet, but they also will uh try to even the playing field when they can. In other words, they will punish the bad guy when they can. And I won't go into the particulars of how they do this, but time and again, like three fourths of the babies will be able to pick out the good puppet as opposed to bad puppet, and many more will reward um

a puppet for punishing the other one. So again, here's this very deeply ingrained idea that we have in our brains about a sense of justice and injustice. In this morality and in this sort of patent tray that always plays out in front of us, we can't help but get our hooks into stories and be intrigued by them. So how can we help to uh you know, with that is sort of the base of our cognitive systems. Um, how can we actually go about peeling back those illusory

layers to really see what's going on? Yeah? To it? To end on a quote from Roland Barts says that in the ring, wrestlers remain gods because they are, for a few moments, the key which open nature. The pure gesture, which separates good from evil and unveils the form of a justice which is at last intelligible. So we're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit more about some related issues to this, about um, what happens when, uh, when

the self is layered in these these various elements of fiction. Uh. The episode is going to be called Undercover Actors in the Shadow Self. It's gonna be the one that publishes right after this one. So you're really into this topic, check it out. We promise there's some some excellent content in there. So um, let's put it putting wrestling aside. Now, let's ask the robot to come over here and bring

us some listener mail. All right, here's one from Critter Jones on Facebook, and I just love the We have a listener named Critter Jones. It just it lightens my day, Uh, Critter says, you sweet sweet people have the best product on the air today. Thanks for pushing boundaries and breaking mysterious walls. Uh, as always with your Labyrinth episode. I don't know what I do without you guys. Please don't

make me find out. Love and infinite rockets to both of you, sweet cats, please please keep on keeping on. Thank you. We also heard from Kristen. Kristen said, hey, guys, just listen to the maze episode. Another little quirk of the maze in Harry Potter was that the hedges also moved, so you couldn't really go back the way you came, and you'd also have to hurry and pick a direction

before the hedges took you out. Great podcast, guys. And finally, Paul wrote to us on Facebook as well and said, regarding the call for video game mazes, the worlds of the Metroid series come immediately to mind. Many times you can clearly see the path ahead or shiny upgrade, but lack the necessary equipment, which you obtain much later in the game, often long after you have forgotten where you found the blocks path. So so there you go. Thanks

guys for writing in. If any of the rest of you would like to um chat with us about mazes, about labyrinths, about pro wrestling, uh, if you yourself are a pro wrestling fan or or a pro wrestler and you have thoughts on some of the content that we've

discussed here right in. Also if you're an outsider, if you're your husband or or other significant other is is into wrestling and you're kind of like viewing it from the outside and you have some thoughts about it, and maybe those thoughts have changed a little after listening to this podcast. Let us know. You can find us on

Facebook and you can find us on tumbler. We are stuff to blow your mind on both of those and we have a Twitter feed, uh that is blow the mind one word, and you can always drop us a line at blow the Mind at Discovery dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works dot com