The Seven Deadlies: Green With Envy

talked about pride. This time we're talking about envy, which lines up nicely because in Dante's Purgatory, Dante has to ascend this mountain of purgatory that connects Earth to the sky, Earth to the heavens. At the top of this mountain is the earthly paradise, and individuals that are going through purgatory they have to work off each layer of sin before they're to enter into the higher realms. So the first level you end up going through a terrace on

this mountain. The first terrace deals with pride, and the second Terrorists deals with invY. And it's interesting when one travels to this imagined room, you find the envious shades to these individuals who were who were very envious in life, and they're gonna have to work this junk off before they can they can rise higher. They're all leaning against each other again and against boulders. They're all sort of huddled around like beggars. As Dante comes closer, he finds

that their eyelids are sown shut with wire. Okay, yeah, that seems reasonable because in the especially you know, are under our are sort of figurative understanding of it. It's all about the eyes, you know, green eyed envy. It's about it's about looking at other things and covening. Um. And so these individuals coveted in their lives, they looked with with these envious eyes. And now all these envious

eyes are shut. See. I think that is the sort of attention that envy should get, because it is it's actually pretty important. And we I was, we were researching this. I thought, this is really very interesting stuff. Um, and you think it's exactly the kind of attention and we should get. Well no, no, no, I don't actually have their eyelids shown the sun shut. No, especially not with wire thread. That's just that's just cruel. Well I was

really interesting enough side. Uh no, but apparently they would take hawks and they would part of the training of a hawk would be too so it's eyes shut with with laces of gut like you know, tennis string or something, and that was just part of training the hawk to accept food from a human master. In all this so right that it is not like the hawk was coveting other hawks, right right. But it's interesting that that's where that came from. It wasn't just Dante being morbid. And

I mean he's being a little more bid. He's Dante, but but he he got the idea from the way people trained at hawks. Well. But again, I think that this is the sort of import that MV has. New York Times writer John Turney actually was talking about it being one of the seven sins and being kind of boring. He said, at first, you know, for him, it was the most useless of the deadly sins, excruciating to experience, shameful to admit, bereft of immediate pleasure or long term benefits.

To an evolutionary psychologist, there's a certain logic to seducing thy neighbor's wife or stealing his goods. But what's the point of merely covering them. Yeah. Yeah, it was an interesting point you made, because it is. It is not a fun sin when you hear people talk about it. I'm gonna go out and say, you know, we're like a carnival type deal where it's like I've got to start being good tomorrow, but tonight I'm just gonna covet my face off. Like nobody says that, you know, it's

all about the other vices. No one's like, Oh, I'm gonna so the envious of bread pet tonight, it's gonna be great right in front of you and I'm going to cover you all up. Uh, but let's talk about a belt's started to get into meat up in the meat of it because some people think of it as jealousy,

but it actually is not jealousy. Um. Envy is more of a longing for what you don't have, whereas jealousy is more provoked by losing something that might have had to someone else, Like like two people are competing for a job and one gets it over the other, and then the person who didn't get the job to be jealous. And actually, envy comes from the Latin word in the invidiary, which means to look at with malice or cast an evil eye, which is sort of interesting when you were

talking about the sewing shuts of the eye. Again, it's all relating back to that consumption. Um. And is there an upside to this? It's kind of funny all the other since there's a bit of an upside, but this one, I have to say, this is a bit of a dark side. And yes, there's an upside in the sense

that you can use envy along um. Let's say, if you use the prism of admiration alongside with it, um, you could be more likely to closely note how someone behaves or has attained his or her success and then try to emulate that and create these conditions for yourself. Yeah, you end up with the with these two different versions

of envy. You have a benign envying, you have a malicious on the benign and v I just for consistency sake, I looked up in the Ascetaic Bible to see what Anton LaVey had to say about Of course, yeah, he's you know, it was very much making kind of a new age argument for for these various sins and against organized religion and and uh. He said that envy needs to look with favor upon the positions of others, and to be desirous of desirous of obtaining similar things for oneself.

And if he and greed are the motivating forces of ambition, and without ambition, very little of any importance would be accomplished. And that's a valid goat hats aside, that's a that's a valid argument, you know, because because you think of the people in life that you look at our heroes and uh, and there's a certain amount of envy there. You're like, man that you know that dude is an awesome writer. I wish I had had skills like that.

But but in many cases it takes on that that form of I'm gonna really look at what this guy's doing. I'm going to try and emulate how he approaches his art, and then I'm going to be better for it, you know. Yeah, And that's what I think. It's interesting about envyous So much of it is predicated on your ability to him imagine your life, a future life for yourself. And again that's where the benign comes in. If you could look

at someone and say, I feel motivated by this person. Uh, there are things that this person has that I want that that fit along with what makes sense in my life or what's really important to me. Obviously, the malicious part comes uh into play when you pay attention to people who you feel like are superior to you too, to the point where, uh you wish that things would happen to these people, Um that you began to resent people. You spend way too much mental energy on obsessing about something,

and that obsession is really at the core of this. Yes, a malicious envy becomes. It's it's not as much a I really admire that person I want to be like them. It's more like I really admire that person or not as much I admire them, and like that person has things I wish I had. I can't have them, but

stabbing them would still would still feel pretty good. If I can't, If I can't achieve that level aim, I could at least take that level of fame from them, which on the surface sounds just insane, but as well, as we'll discuss if if you kind of break it down you can you can find some potential evolutionary advantages in that as well. Right well, I mean, what you're trying to do is find their weakness so that you can bring them back down to your your level, right,

so in essential leveling the playing field. Right, It's kind of like, all that person is an awesome runner. My benign envy says I can train up and become as good a runner as they are and maybe, you know, get a little faster and beat them. The other one is like, I will never be as good a runner as they are, but I bet if I cut their tendons with a knife then I could easily outrun them. Either way, each scenario ends with me winning the race.

It's kind of the Tanya Harding effect, right, like, Wow, you're such a great skater, I'm just gonna hit you in the in the knees and break your knees. Um. So, yeah, there's malicious, there's benign. And it turns out that in memories to auties, this sort of envy really plays into

our ability to remember details about people. Um. There have been experiments with envy a students at Texas Christian University and Fort Worth and the University of Texas at Austin, Texas, and researchers bore out the conclusion that students who read stories about envy inducing characters had far better recall than non envy inducing characters. Again, here's your mind really dwelling on this person and what they have or what they

don't have, what you don't have. And it also turns out that, um, there's a bit of ego depletion involved in this. So it ends up actually wearing down your mental faculties. Yeah, and we talked about this, We talked about ego depletion. Is is um, one of the things

that happens when decision fatigue. You have to make up all these decisions about what goes on my sandwich, whatever music I'm gonna listen to, you know how, I'm gonna get to work, and by the end of the day, I'm not able to really tackle difficult cognitive problems exactly because you you're suffering from ego depletion. So another study

this is this the same group of researchers. They had students contemplating a wealthy, attractive peer, and then students were asked to work on puzzles and compared with the control group, they gave up much sooner, which is the same thing that we saw with the decision fatigue and the people that had to make up all those decisions or make all those decisions, and then we're later given a self control test and those people I remember this is something like they had to put their hands in ice water,

and those people had were able to put their hands in ice water for half the time than the control groups. So again you're seeing parallels here with the eroding of of um, your mental faculties, of which honestly, we only have a finite amount of mental energy per day, right, so it's how are you going to spend it? Are you're gonna waste it sort of dreamily staring at this other person's life or worth stabbing them in your imagination?

And and the thing is they whole, They're just all you have to do is go through the checkoutline at the grocery store, and and whole industries thrive on on injy um. I mean, all these tabloids about what's the celebrity doing, what's this celebrity buying, what's the celebrity's of personal life consists of? And mean you walk by it and you're just like, what how do people fill their days with this? You just just gaze into this, Uh, the celebrity of this. There's one magazine that the I

don't know if it's us or something. But I remember flipping through it once and they have a section called celebrities they're just like us, And it just completely cracked me up because it was like, this person wears a sweatshirt when they're going to the store, too, and so it reminded me of this this idea that's not quite schaden freud. Yeah, but it's sort of like, well, they look kind of schleppy sometimes too. That makes me feel a lot better. Yeah, well, yeah, it's not quite personally, Yeah,

but no, I understand what you're saying. It's not they're not it's not quite I hate this person. I want to see him stabbed. It's like I'm taking comfort in the fact that this person is mortal as well, and uh and and is open to the same flaws and normalities that I am. Well, and it turns out that envy and chitten freud are actually linked, researchers think, and we'll talk about that in one minute when we come back.

All right, we're back, um, which is an interesting concept and one that you actually find some theologians discussing Thomas aquinas Um in uh Suma Theologica said, wherefore, in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them, and they may render more copious thanks to God for it. Uh, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. So we're talking about saints

being able to see people's torments in hell. And then there was I ran across another example where Jonathan Edwards, the author of Center in the Hands of an angry God, he was making pretty much the same argument. The view of the misery of the dam will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints in heaven. Forth, the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of

the saints forever. It will not only make them more sensible of the greatness and the freeness of the grace of God and their happiness, but it will really make their happiness the greater, as it will make them more sensible of their own happiness, which sounds kind of nuts, yeah, kind yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean there's this idea of Schipenfreud of um sort of lowering the veil of perfection, right, And uh, if if it's someone you emvvery they seem

like they're just bulletproof. And then all of a sudden you see that they've got a chink in their armor, and it's it's the tabloid thing again. It's like, let me see my heroes in unflattering swimsuits, let me see

them making mistakes, let me see them growing older. And I always find a morbid fascination in the phrasing of that, because it's, uh, if if it's somebody that the reader of the tabloid is meant to like, it is, it's always like so and so's brave last days, Like like I think Elizabeth Taylor was having brave last Days for like half a decade. But then other people, it's just the language is always far worse, like oh, they're just

they're just on the verge of death, you know. And and and people eat it up because it's they're getting to see their their heroes fall there, their gods are are brought down to their level. And then, well, isn't it the whole problem? I guess you could say the problem of our existence is at our our consciousness and the sense that we know we're all going to die some days. So yeah, at a very basic level, it's like, hey,

this is happening. I know, what's gonna happen for me is gonna it's happened to this person, but birthday candles to bring it back to that, what's going to happen when we reached the point where the first celebrity that everyone hates is like, and guess what, guys, I'm living forever? And then I mean I think rise up among the tabloid readers will just be immense. I think our example for that episode was Charlie Sheen. Yeah, I don't think my just changed since we recorded that. Um if there's

anybody else that could replace them. But I want to tell you about a study about envy and schaden freud and um it has a great title. Actually, it's called when your gain is my pain and your pain is my gain Neural correlates correlates of envy and schaden freud. And this is a study by Haidahiko Takahishi, which we

talked about him in the Pride episode. UM So he and some other researchers set out to to research this and this was there um part of their in their abstract that said, we often evaluate the self and others from social comparisons. We feel emvy when the target person has superior and self relevant characteristics. Schanden Freud occurs when envied persons fall from grace and they go on a bit and then they say, are finding document mechanisms of

painful emotion and the rewarding reaction shaden Freud. It's really fascinating what they did here, And if you guys can just kind of bear with me as I talk a bit about the details. UM, because they did two different studies that relate together. They had nineteen subjects that were asked to visualize being a protagonist in scenarios that college students might faceball undergoing UM an m R I. So they have these scenarios that they're they're inserting themselves into

as the protagonist and UH. For example, UM, the following scenario, a male subject was asked to imagine himself as a protagonist. Student A, this is the person that they're invying, did well in his final examinations, but the protagonist did not. Student A is talented in baseball, but the protagonist is not. Student A is popular among girls and has a beautiful and intelligent girlfriend, but protagonist is not popular and does

not have a steady girlfriend. So they go on to say student A successful in a job interview and getting along really well the company he wants to join. The protagonist is not. The salary is great for Student A. He has a luxury condominium downtown. Okay, it just gets

worse and worse for for protagonist. Takahashi had the subject imagine as schaden Freud evoking scenario then in which the protagonist is then doing much better than Student A, and the scenarios are were varied to include the gender of the subject UM and other students might be assigned the same gender as the subject to help them relate right um. And also details were changed so that there would be a degree of similarity between the imagined student A and

the protagonist. So analysis of the resulting brain scans compared the activation in different brain regions under envy invoking and then Schadenfreud evoking and then neutral scenarios, so they could test this out and controlled type situation. UM, and then the subjects were asked to rate their relative feelings of envy. And they're gloating in the scenario, so this is okay, this is all okay, Yeah, yeah, I get it. They're they're really trying to set this up. Um, This is

where it gets interesting. The envy producing scenario showed activation in the anterior singulate cortex, and that's the place in the brain that's associated with error detection or conflict, which was also activated by pain. Said. The conclusion here is that people experiencing envy, which is associated with shame, or feeling emotional pain or the pain of social exclusion, which I found fascinating because here's just part of your brain

that that is really sis to perceive physical pain. But if you are envying someone, you're actually feeling some sort of emotional pain from your envy. And we have to think back to the purpose of pain itself as the my my body is feeling pain, therefore something is wrong and must be addressed or avoided. Like there's a stick jabbing into my thigh, I should remove said stick. My stomach is hurting. Whatever I ate is bad and I

should probably not eat it again. So we have to take that and extrapolate it into the into social dynamics. You're feeling this emotional pain. I am not as good as they are. I'm not feeling that my self worth is really taken a hit here. I should become as good as them. I should I should rise above them, I should stab them in the thigh. You know, well, I mean it's the stabbing is the purest form of

malicious envy, I think. Well, okay, so this is the other interesting part of this is that when they had the downfall of student A, they saw activation in the ventral striatom, which is as associated with rewarding stimuli, and so Takahashi interpret the activation with schadenfreud as a feeling of pleasure, which makes sense, right, um, So they feel like there are correlates here. You know that m vy

and Schenfreud go hand in hand. The other thing that correlated with this is that if the student or the person in this um, I should say that the protagonist, the person in the study, if they did not feel any sort of kinship with this person, did not feel that they were at all on the same level and that they couldn't imagine themselves in habiting this person's world.

They did not feel any envy, They did not have any activation in the interior singulate cortex or in the ventral striatom when they were when they had the shade fraud scenario. So you have to be able to put yourself in their shoes to some extent to actually take pleasure in their downfall. You have to imagine this life for yourself because even though there might be some great object that someone has in their possession, if you don't somehow connect with that person, to relate with that person,

then it doesn't matter to you. So you you know what, that could be a myriad things, right, It could be um, they have socio economic background. Um, it could be the kind of music they listened to. Um. But it makes sense that in a workplace scenario, why there might be more instances of envy because in a workplace scenario, you're more likely to connect or not necessarily connect, but to um, Well, they're in your world. They're they're in your world. That's

right there. They're on your playing field. So that was really fascinating about this study. But not only that, there's neuroscientists. Um. They're taking the findings of the activation of the anterior singulate cortex. Again, this is where the pain physical pain would usually light up activation of the brain, and they're saying that it's an indication of development of complex emotions, piggybacking off the primal brain system. So that's the rat

like hind brain. Yes, yeah, yeah, So what they're saying is that that that this could point to um, not us developing more complex systems in order to deal with more complex feelings, but really piggybacking off these primal feelings. It's the it's the brain is an ice cream scoop again, you know the idea that that it's just one more scoop added to the brain evolves. Yeah, not not an overall rehall of the system. It's not a banana split.

It's an ice cream cone. Yet, you know double degger. Well, I can't speak for most work places, but we do have relatively few stabbings here at the Work's true. Yeah, um, there's no a lot of meaning going on here. Um. And I'm going to say that's I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that's probably because there are not a whole lot of people, as far as I know, that are morally disengaged. And when I say morally disengaged, I don't need to say like cool,

they're you know, good or bad people. I'm talking about it more in the sense of UM. A study that was called the social context model and being social undermining, and it was in the Academy of Management journal, and they were saying that if if an employee feels morally disengaged at work, so they're feeling disconnected from other core co workers, they are far more likely to not just envy co workers with whom they feel they have similarities.

Again that's really important, but they would actually act on those on those uh thoughts of envy and try to sabotage them. Interesting. So, potentially, say an office where individuals don't have much of contact with one another, they would there would be more likely to be a morally disengaged

I would, Well, it kind of depends on the person. Uh, it's it may just be that they feel disinfranchised or they just don't feel connected, because I think a lot of us now work remotely, but we still have relationships, uh, you know, thanks to the magic and the power of

the internet. Right. Um. But what they did is they looked at a hundred and sixty employees um from a Midwest American hospital and they tested whether the person had a lack of identification with colleagues because they knew this would increase the them acting on their envy and respondents took to surveys they were eight months apart to assess their envy, their affinity with colleagues, and their comfort with

subversive acts and the research. The research basically said that envy these people with ties to coworkers were less likely to act on their envy, while lone wolves seemed to enter into a bubble of moral disengagement that allowed them to more freely undermine colleagues by, you know, withholding information

or spreading gossip for instance. And so the more all of this story was, you know, hey, company, she should really make sure that all of your employees feel like they have a stake in the matter, or they feel connected to each other in one man or another, and make them feel like they're on the same team. That it's that it's a wee and not like that I'm not this embattled employee. That it's like, well, they're all out to get me anyway, so I might as well

do whatever that I want. So, yeah, I mean that's so that you don't enter into this bubble where it's okay to morally distance yourself and maybe just start jamming up the copying machine on purpose. I don't know, Oh that one I was broken the other day. Well, it reminds me. I can't help but think of the film The Spanish Prisoner by David Mamma, see this I did, yeah long time had like Steve Martin plays the shadowy

character and and uh, and that's largely all. I don't remember what the exact plot was, except I had to do with a classic scam called The Spanish Prisoner. There's a really nice scene where this, uh, this the protagonist in the story is really sudden, like he's working condition is suddenly taking a dive and his employers are being kind of jerks to him and he's He's like, what's

this about? And this outher character explains to them, Well, it's because they're about to screw you over, so they're they're having to create this moral distance from you to do it. So so you can see that that potentially working both ways and an employee employee or situation. Well, we've seen moral distancing in so many different situations. We talked about it and lying, where people start to use third person references for themselves as opposed to first person.

We've talked about it in eating animals, how you start to talk about meat in very different terms. Um so yeah, I mean you can definitely see this at work in

all different levels of your relationship to your world. Anytime you hear someone talking about bureaucracy um, which granted there's there are plenty of times in any corporation, any kind of working environment where you can say like, oh, that seems a little bureaucratic, you know, in the negative sense, but it's also like an instant way to to distance yourself from the actual people and the you know, you're just like, oh, there's a bureaucracy in place, there's the

soulless entity that is messing with my happiness well, and it is the ability to label like that is a sense of comfort to right because it's like, oh, this nameless, faceless thing, which is you know, impacting my life in a nameless, faithless thing. I can totally still off the supplies from that. Yeah, post it notes, Yeah, let's have my name on it. Journalist Oliver James he has a talk on the School of Life about envy specifically, and it was really interesting. He talks about envy as being

affluenza as opposed to influence. The affluenza this preoccupation would becoming affluent, and he says it's largely cultural he says that if you live in Denmark and had an envy inspiring childhood, meaning things happened in your childhood and which sort of set you up to to envy others, uh, you're less likely to express it than if you live in New York or London because at a very simple level, much less energy is um expended in mainline continental societies

and fostering envy. So his point there is there, you know, there has got to be culture. Well, there are some countries, there are some regions where this pursuit of things and in abstractions of happiness via wealth aren't really important. And he says that since the nineteen sixties, four times more has been spent per capita on advertising and marketing in America compared to the continental mainline Europe. And he says and throughout the rest of English speaking world, including England,

twice as much as being spent. So he says, okay, let's let's look at the marketing and the advertising, because it's very much encouraging you to covet to want things that other people have. Huh. It reminds me of the in Tibetan Buddhism. The Buddhism in general, there's the idea of the predda is the realm of the preda is the hungry ghost these which is one of the lower

realms that one can find themselves born into. And the predas have enormous bellies and u and tiny narrow necks and the ravenous mouths because they're just so hungry for things, for material possessions generally, you know, they're they're so hungry for the things in the world around them, and they don't have the ability to keep up with that hunger. Well see, And it's it's interesting there you have a

culture and where you're actually talking about this, right. This is if you're I don't know if people are sitting around the dinner table into that for instance, and talking about this. But here is a story about envy and um and what happens when you engage in it. And this is another thing that James Oliver was talking about. There are cultures that are much more traditional that actually try to minimize evil. And what he was talking about is that they have belief structures in place to kind

of downplay it. And he was saying that for instance, an evil I might be cast upon you if you were to start to brag about your success right or your successes and um, he's also saying that cultures that have less property rights. And this is not just we're not just talking about giving smyth the stink guy here, whether they just kind kind of like every actually evil eye and actual pulling out the evil eye and basically

saying stand down. Yeah, like we were not really interested in you know, man, wouldn't be great to do that. Like you go to you go to a party and somebody starts off on some some some long discussion about how great the are and you can just pull out the evil eye and let him have it. Yeah, and you say, hey, hey, hey you jack and EPs just just enough with that, I got my evil eye out.

You know, maybe we should Maybe this is something that we can introduce in the United States, you know in market and and market and other people will covet it. Your friend talking a little bit too much about their promotion evil. I I think for something here co worker loves his nw kando a little too much evil. He didn't get it evil eye tattoo. There are all sorts

of possibilities here. But I mean with his point though, is like, here are these cultures that are actually saying that this is not acceptable um in our society for you to act this way. Well, again we go back to Dante and the idea of a whole bunch of Endia's individuals sitting on the side of a mountain with their eyes soone shut. That sounds like like a pretty argument there. Maybe just nobody listens to it anymore within those cultures. I don't know. Yeah, that's a little bit

harder to sort of bring up in a special situation. Well, you know, in terms of a metaphorical what do you do? Do you like a picture of some of their eyes? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I guess you what you're saying. There's not an instant sort of thing. I mean, all you could do. I guess that the version of it we have that we go to most in Western cultures is simply to roll your eyes or sort of walk away from the conversation

or drastically try and change the subject. Or you could put some sort of like make it look like wire um thread on the rim of your eye and then shut your eyes. Yeah, or you inject a little of the schadenfreud if you're bragging about something, you ask a Biden question that knocks the blockout from under him a little bit, like like someone's got a new car and they're like a new car is so great, and you're like, so what's the appreciation right on a new vehicle like that?

What's the insurance like for that vehicle? And then yam, But you know, if that's what Oliver James says, he actually he talked about instance in his own life where there was a colleague that he started to attack on national television PS and or I guess on the BBC and uh no no, but he started. He said it was a complete rant and it didn't make any sense to him until later he realized that he envied that colleague and was trying to take him down a notch.

So you see that his he must have been getting some sort of kick there, some sort of reward in his brain. Um. But you know, this is what he says. He says that that this sort of envy that's wanting this void, this filling the void, is driving a lot

of mental illness. And he says that if we could just turn more inward and try to figure out the things that that make us happy, Like he was saying, if you can, if you can identify the state of flow that sometimes we engage in that state of flow in which time just evaporates, right, because you were so engaged in something and it's so pleasurable and you're living in the moment. You're not living in a path that

you're concerned about or the future that you're worried over. Yeah, he's saying, if we could just engage in that and quit focusing on the exterior and what we think we're lacking, then a lot of this sort of mental illness of society would would not be as bad as it is. Um, if we could quit listening basically to marketers and advertisers and I didn't really care about the halftime Super Bowl ads, you know, for instance, that this is sort of a path that would would get us away from that, and

then we can depart the realm of hungry guys. I like it. All right, Well, let's um, let's call the robot over and uh see if he has an interesting listener. Mayo, maybe to cap all this off, all right, we have a couple here, both a rat related which I like. The first one is a respond to our recent and dare I say, awesome rat King episode. Devin writes in and says hello from Canada, thank you for all the amazing podcasts. Uh, with the exception of your rat king episode.

I listened to all your podcasts while it would work as a postman here in Edmonton, Alberta. Alberta is thankfully a quote rat free, unquote province. This knowledge was a secure any blanket that I clung to while listening to you your podcast has me gagging and quivering up while delivering mails. His childhood, I have had a phobia of rats. I am able to control this fear down to a mildest comfort in most cases. The rat king, however, is

one of the most disgusting things I could possibly imagine. Uh. And then it all descends into as gibberish from there. So that was a delightful Yeah. I'm sorry to cause such consternation, but that was a really funny email. Yeah. And then we also heard from Sue B who writes in about the same gender sex pairings and animals the gay animals episode we did, and Subi says I had two pet rats that their sisters named Natalie and Eka.

It has an explanation point at the end as to say that that's the kind of name that you would need an explanation point with. Eka was large and more aggressive, but not as adventurous as Natalie as to exploring their surroundings. Natalie would get into anything not sealed off. Eca was very interested in pinning latally down and licking her genet o you or mounting her as a male would. Natalie had no interest in this. At times, ECA's ardor was very aggressive and nat would have to fight her off.

Eka would be would be relentless to the point that it distressed me. I wanted to tell her to stop raping her sister. So many character aspects here in incest, same gender, sexual attraction, a possibility of a sexuality, and just playing domination. I guess that's my two cents best regards to be Wow, that was the oddest configuration of words ever tumbling out of your mouth with with such intonations as well. I don't even know what to say

with about that. So that's fascinating. We we asked for examples of same sex animal adventures and uh, that was an interesting account, So it wasn't expecting yet the level of detail. Yeah, so hey, if the rest of you guys would like to pipe in, if you have something you would like to add about rat kings, about same sex relationships between rat Kings, or just good old green indeed, let us know. We'd love to hear about it. I mean specifically, you know, how do you process envy in

your life? I mean, to to what extent do you feel like you're aware of it? Do you ever catch yourself becoming envious? And uh? And then how do you process Did you ever know how much it wore your brain down? Yeah? Yeah? Do you feel like a little worn out after a long bout of envy? If so, let us know. Um. You can find us on Facebook as stuff to Blow the Mind, and you can find us on Twitter as Blow the Mind, and you can send us an email at Blow the Mind at Discovery

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