The 2025 Ig Nobels, Part 1

many years now by Mark Abraham's. The publication's stated purpose is to quote honor achievements that first make people laugh and then make them think. You can learn much more

about them at improbable dot com. They have a wonderful list where you can just you can scroll through all the winners over the years, different peer reviewed papers, scientific papers, and sometimes just individual researchers that are singled out for these different studies that are in one way or another comedic and hilarious, but also deep down our legitimate science that it is often answering very important questions or things on the borders of very important questions, things that are

still part of the ever growing expanse of scientific curiosity.

of cats. One was funny, yeah when done right, but it's perfect.

or weirdly counterintuitive. I guess there are a lot of different ways that a scientific paper can end up being funny. But one thing I always really enjoy about doing these episodes is that usually even when something seems really silly at first glance, once you actually read into it, there's kind of some interesting stuff going on underneath the hood.

be decades old. So sometimes we'll get excited for the Ignobells and we're like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's something we covered that years ago.

But one of the studies they were doing with the methodology that they employed, involved putting little necklaces around their necks, and like, that is in and of itself hilarious. Right, anytime we put little bits of clothing or something even akin to clothing on an animal for scientific purposes, it's going to cause us to giggle. On some level where it's going to make me giggle. Anyway, serious scientists may disagree.

And the paper in question was a Nigerian, Togalese, Italian French production and was awarded quote for studying the extent to which a certain kind of lizard chooses to eat certain kinds of pizza, and it published in twenty twenty three.

a whole production. You have made a dough, you have made a sauce, you have you know, you have created cheese out of milk and probably added some other things to it. It's all this stuff coming together and producing this very synthetic, technological product. And the fact that an animal is taking your pizza away. I think that's what's funny about it.

so lizards eating pizzas. This is even more hilarious. You know, we're clearly getting into teenage mutant into turtle territory. Here brings to mind not only the pizza loving Turtles themselves, but also fellow mutant Mondo Gecko. I don't know how many episodes of the old cartoon Mondo Gecko actually factored into I included an image of this particular character for you here, Joe, obviously a half human, half lizard hybrid with a lot of attitude.

strange pizzas. And I did a short detour in my research here, and I discovered a YouTuber somebody who goes by the name of Kirk Cooks that's with a K, and apparently on YouTube over the course of I don't know, multiple episodes, maybe even years, this guy cooked all sixty seven pizzas mentioned on the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle series, So things like anchovies and butterscotch ice cream, pepperoni and marshmallow, pickled herring, and caramel fudge, and of course locks and

cream cheese, which I just referenced.

pizza but fruit meat combos. Okay, because there were other like fruit meat combos back when I ate meat that I also didn't like, like prostudo and melon like some people love that. I just never it was never for me.

here too is certainly a valid inquiry. As we've discussed on the show before, human cities, especially greatly alter the lifestyles and diets of the creatures that continue to thrive in them, and for most of you listeners, this is instantly going to bring to mind things like pigeons and rats obviously, but it also concerns all manner of creatures that find ways to thrive in human augmented environments. Highly adaptable creatures with varied opportunistic diets often do quite well.

And in parts of Africa that means rainbow lizards. You know what they're eating from our refuse why and then what it's doing to their health and door behavior is totally worth studying. If for no other reason you might think of it as like they're eating pizza because of us, it's kind of our responsibility to figure out why this is happening and what are the ramifications.

apparently the conflict between these males. It's more pronounced in urban environments because they're kind of constricted in their territory, so they can't spread out as much and they grow to around thirty centimeters or eleven point eight inches in length. Now in the paper, the authors point out that the species has high ecological plasticity, especially so far as thermal

ecology and foraging strategy goes. So in rural areas they're strictly diurnal, but in urban areas they apparently make use of artificial lighting to become nocturnal foragers. And apparently most of this has to do with keeping their body temperature up, taking advantage of those lights to stay warm in the night, and continuing to hunt. Oh interesting at first. When I first read it, I thought, oh, well, you know, insects drawned with lights, and maybe that's a part of it.

I didn't read that specifically, but it seems like thermal regulation is the main feature here now. In addition to eating insects, though, it has for a while been observed that they will sometimes eat certain bread based foods, and this led directly into this study that considered that asked the question what sort of pizzas do they prefer? And this took place at a particular seaside resort in Togo.

I'm going to read from the paper here. After having opportunistically observed an adult male quote stealing a piece of four cheese pizza from tourists by climbing a table, we decided to investigate whether this behavior was occasional or usual

in this rainbow lizard population. So again, observations of adult lizards not only you know, dining on thrown away slices of pizza or you know, pizza bones in a garbage can, but just straight up stealing slices of pizza pizza rat style from human tourists.

traditional in many areas. It's divided into four sections, So one quarter of the pizza is artichoke hearts for spring, and then another quarter is basil and tomatoes for summer, and then another quarter is mushrooms for autumn, and then another section is ham for winter.

giving a cat a saucer of milk. Yes, they do it in the cartoons and in the movies all the time, but I think most of us know by this point you're not supposed to do that. But these are lizards, right, Why would lizards need cheese? Why would lizards need milk? In fact, I was looking around and like, in general, pet owners who have lizards are generally reminded, do not feed your lizard milk. Do not give your lizard cheese. They don't need it, they can't handle it.

They seem to be in good overall health. And it seemed like one of the leading hypotheses here is that they're perhaps benefiting from a high fat, high calorie energy boost when they eat this cheese pizza, specifically the cheese here. As for like the bread itself, I don't. I don't. I'm not to understand that that has any like real impact. But maybe that's the main way that these lizards, lizards have been observed to obtain cheese like this off of a you know, a type of food that has spread

around the world, like invasive pet lizard species. In this case, the.

So here My source is a press release on the website of the Florida Museum of Natural History from April twenty twenty by Halle Marchesi, and the story goes like this, Some researchers at the University of Florida and at the Florida Museum came into possession of a remarkable specimen, an

adult female northern curly tailed lizard. The species is Leocephalus caronadus, and this northern curly tailed lizard was so constipated when they found it that the mass of impassable poop in its digestive tract had become almost eighty percent of the animal's total body mass. I think the exact figure was seventy eight point five percent. Yikes, so more poop than lizard.

bullus stuck in its digestive system. And again, the bullus to body mass ratio was huge. It was so far past the previous record that it was crazy. The previous record was in a Burmese python, and this ratio was six roughly six times greater than that. Edward Stanley, director of the Florida Museum's Digital Discovery and Dissemination Laboratory, said, quote, I was blown away by how little room there was

left for all the other organs. If you look at the three D model, it has only a tiny space left over in its ribcage for the heart, lungs, and liver. So the sad part of this story is that unfortunately this condition was not survivable for the lizard. The lizard

was humanely euthanized. But how did it get so constipated. Well, this lizard had been feeding in the parking lot next to the grease collection bin outside of a pizza parlor in Cocoa Beach, Florida, and the researchers think that this lizard was probably hunting insects and other smaller lizards that were drawn to the pizza grease, and as a result, it was ingesting a lot of greasy sand. It had

probably eaten a bunch of insects. I think they said it had eaten another lizard in a knoll and a bunch of grease soaked sand along with these other meals, and this turned into the bullus that it couldn't pass. Now, Rob, you were just speaking about invasive lizards in Florida. The northern curly tail lizards originally native to Cuba, the Bahamas, and the Cayman Islands are also not originally to Florida. They were intentionally introduced to Florida in the nineteen forties

in an attempt to control agricultural pests. How many times have we heard that story they were brought into control. I think it was sugar cane pests, and as so often happens, they became a problem in their own right, out competing and threatening native lizard species and contributing to a decline in the native diversity of reptiles in Florida.

Apparently they are especially at risk for getting blocked up intestines because their diet is so diverse, and they will eat all kinds of things they find in human environments. To quote Claunch in that article, quote from bits of fish to cheese and crackers. So again, we don't know for sure that this lizard was actually eating pizza. It was eating in the parking lot next to the pizza parlor, But I don't know cheese and crackers. Is that too far off from pizza or be happening.

had not yet happened to this one. Though. I do wonder this is not anything that the sources were suggesting. I'm just just guessing here. Would those predators now have a higher likelihood of also getting constipated. You got to wonder if if you're a bird or something and you eat a lizard that is actually like eighty percent fecal bullus made of largely, you know, pizza, grease, and sand, do you get constipated with pizza, grease, and sand.

leave this one. B maybe I'll only eat a part of it, or you know how that ends up going down. I know that, Like, there are various predators who you know, that do not want to consume the fecal matter of their prey, like I believe. I remember reading that Komodo dragons, for example, might like swing the animals around like to dislodge in intestines that may have fecal matter inside them. So even if you're eating most of the animal, you

might not eat it home. But then again, there are also plenty of examples of animals that absolutely do eat their prey hole and then either it all passes through or you know, some of it gets you know, barfed back up again and the rest continues. The journey.

that they are intelligent? So the name of the winning paper, published in twenty twenty one in the journal Intelligence perhaps emphasizes what's funny about this more than the ceremony language does. It's called telling people they are intelligent correlates with the feeling of narcissistic uniqueness, the influence of IQ feedback on temporary state narcissism.

experiment to tell you that. I've made this point many times on the show before, including in previous Ignobel episodes, but I just want to do my brief speech on this again right now. To the extent people actually mean this kind of thing when they say it. I think this point of view really misunderstands the purpose of most experiments, and it misses the value of science. The whole reason we have experimental science is to test what we think will happen against what actually happens. So we have a

hypothesis and we subject it to an experiment. Sometimes the results apport the hypothesis, sometimes they don't. So if you say I have an intuition about how this experiment will come out, therefore you shouldn't run an experiment, that essentially reduces to saying that we shouldn't have experimental science at all. It's like saying, however, I assume the world works based on just living my life and getting a vibe is good enough. We don't need to look any deeper. Now.

That doesn't mean, on the other hand, that every scientific experiment and every paper published is amazingly valuable. You know, there are some phenomena that are probably not the most important things in nature to study, though sometimes you don't realize how important something is until after you study it. And of course I would say that the most important criticism you could make of a study is if its design is poor meaning, it could be generating false knowledge.

But I would argue that just looking at the result and saying I could have told you that is not a good criticism of research, because the history of science is full of counterintuitive things where a lay person would assume an experiment would find one thing, and instead it

finds the opposite. Even in psychology, there are tons of results that violate a lay person's intuition and have proven robust, meaning they've been replicated many times by independent teams of researchers, and we've talked about a bunch of these on the show before. Just in the domain of psychology, I think about the great example that it is a super common lay intuition that we are really good at spotting lies

and liars. Most people think that they can tell when somebody is lying to them by I don't know, reading facial expressions or verbal cues. Tests show over and over again that Nope, our intuitions here are very misguided. We grossly overestimate our ability to tell when people are lying to us. In the same vein rob remember those episodes we did on authenticity last year, it's very common lay intuition that we can tell when people are being inauthentic

when not really being themselves. Turns out if you test this, like if you compare other people's ratings of Johnny's authenticity to Johnny's own rating of how authentic he's being in an interaction, the correlation tends to be pretty low. We think we can tell, but actually we're not very good at it.

very important. Sometimes the process of investigating the assumption with an experiment, even if it confirms our intuition, it reveals new ways of thinking about the issue, and it leads us to ask new questions we didn't think of before. So I'll get off my soapbox now, but I just do want to reiterate this thing. I probably end up saying this most years when we talk about the ignobels in one way or another. I could have told you that is not a good criticism.

not answering important questions or solving important problems. It's not big enough, and like this tends to I don't know, it kind of comes back to that saying, you know that the modern scientists there they're standing on the backs of giants, which is true, but they're also standing on a lot of gnomes and halflings and other smaller Like there's a lot of small studies in science that are

just necessary stepping stones and the whole ordeal. Again, I think if we just think about science, is this thing like this, this focused lamp that we need to shine onto various problems, Like sometimes it is that, but it also is about the like the larger you know, full lantern elimination.

things going on. A lot of experiments that don't seem very exciting to the layperson are just laying important groundwork, like testing a tool or a concept to see if it is valid and thus can it be used in further research or making establishing a small establishing something in a small setting to see is it worth investigating with a more high powered study, right or again, as is often the case, you know, looking into things that might be of interest to the researcher, but a lot of

people would say, well why does this matter? And you don't always know why it might matter. Maybe it doesn't end up mattering to the whole world that much. And then other times things could have very squarely been seen when they were first being studied and the why does this matter category, and then they turned out to be a huge significance.

journal Intelligence twenty twenty one. So the authors begin by making a statement that will take a little bit of unpacking, but that statement is a statement about the background research stuff that has already been established before they started their paper here, and that background research finding is that what's called grandiose narcissism is positively correlated with self assessed intelligence or SAI. Now let's define terms here, starting with psychological

concept of narcissism. It is defined in the Encyclopedia of Social Psychology as follows quote. Narcissism in its extreme forms

is considered a personality disorder. It is defined as a syndrome or combination of characteristics that includes the following a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, self importance, and perceived uniqueness, a preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success and power, exhibitionism and attention seeking, emotional reactivity, especially to threats to self esteem, displays of entitlement and the expectation of special treatment from others,

and an unwillingness or inability to show empathy. So that's a lot of different things. It's hard to say that all in one short phrase, but I would say, for simplicity's sake, you can think of narcissism as an extreme form of self centeredness that manifests in a host of characteristic behaviors, these kind of behavior clusters that we see

happening together again and again. And those behaviors include the need for praise, attention and adoration, the lack of empathy for others, the sense of entitlement and a desire for special treatment, and so forth.

For a succinct distinction here, I found another paper from twenty eighteen in Frontiers and Psychology called vulnerable and grandiose narcissism are differently associated with ability and trait emotional intelligence. And note that the first listed of the four authors on this paper here was the same as the Ignobel paper. That's Marson Zagenkowski The authors make the distinction as follows quote.

Grandiose narcissism is characterized by high self esteem, interpersonal dominance, and a tendency to overestimate one's capabilities, whereas vulnerable narcissism

presents defensive, avoidant, and hyper sensitive attitude in interpersonal relations. So, based on these definitions, I would say that your grandiose narcissist is probably the most stereotypical type of egomaniac, all of the typical self obsessed and self privileging narcissistic traits, but with an emphasis on really high opinion of your own abilities and powers and an orientation toward personally getting ahead, competitiveness, dominance, and self aggrandize.

You know, at first, when I think about that, I have a negative reaction to that, and they're like, Oh, that's pompous, that's no good, which I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that. But also it's worth noting that having high confidence in your own intelligence can have both

good and bad consequences. In terms of good consequences, studies have found that even if you can't for actual intelligence or actual ability, higher self assessed intelligence is correlated with some desirable outcomes, like greater feelings of well being, and some studies have found it correlated with better academic achievements. So there are some benefits to seeing yourself as smart, whether or not you're actually smart, and there could be

a lot of reasons for this. For example, one possibility is just, even beyond the narrow domain of intelligence, just generally believing I can do this whatever the domain allows you to take more risks and actually pursuing goals and developing your own skills compared to someone who is actually at the starting point just as capable as you, but feels I cannot do this and thus doesn't take any risks on development or skill attainment, doesn't get opportunities for

success and so forth. As you know, as the saying goes, some percent of success is showing up, and in some cases, believing I am very smart helps motivate you to show up, whether or not you're right about that.

good advice from others. One big thing you see with people high in grandiose, narcissistic traits who rate their own intelligence very highly is that they do not take feedback that contradicts them. So if a piece of information contradicts their view or contradicts their way of understanding the world or their view of themself, they attack the new information or they attack the person delivering the new information, rather than incorporating that information as feedback and updating their model.

And this is one reason it can be so dangerous to have grandiose narcissists in like leadership and authority positions, and they do often end up there. You know, this is a personality type that specifically is set up to reject information that is threatening to their ego.

above average. It's interesting giving people an intelligence test tends to reduce our level of overestimation of our own intelligence. And so this occurs not even at the getting your score on the test stage, like you just take the problem solving portion of the test, and this experience of the task itself reduces people's overconfidence about their own intelligence. It's something about the process, like having to solve the problems.

And finally, though on average we are we're all likely to overestimate our own intelligence, some people overestimate their intelligence more than everybody else, particularly people who score high in the traite narcissism. But anyway, coming back to the main thrust of the paper here, yes, grandiose narcissism is correlated positively with self assessed intelligence. It is typically assumed in the scientific literature that the direction of causation here flows

from the narcarcissism to the self assessed intelligence. In other words, because I have a narcissistic personality, I think I am very smart. I think I'm smarter than other people. But the central question the authors are asking in this paper is, to some extent, could the causation be going the other way or could it be going in both directions? Could it be that something causes me to think that I am very smart, thus I become more likely to exhibit

narcissistic traits. So the authors designed an experiment with three hundred and sixty four subjects where they measured the effects of giving the subjects IQ tests and then randomly telling the subjects either that they performed better than average or that they performed worse than average. The subjects also took standard inventories to measure the presence of particular narcissistic personality traits or state traits, you know, things that could just

indicate being in a narcissistic state of mind temporarily. Specifically, the authors were looking to see if there were temporary boosts to traits of what's called narcissistic admiration, which quote is characterized by striving for uniqueness, grandiose fantasies, and charming behavior. And the authors found that feedback from the IQ test, which to be clear, was random it's not actually reflective of performance, did positively correlate with people's self assessed intelligence.

So if you tell somebody that they did better than average on this IQ test, it did also make them see themselves as smarter, And it also temporarily increased one particular subscale of narcissistic admiration, but not the others. The one part of narcissism that it did increase, at least temporarily, was known as striving for uniqueness, which the authors characterize as the feeling of being special, bragging about one's abilities,

and the enjoyment of one's successes. So the core hypothesis there was that it was a kind of mixed result. Actually did not find that telling people they did well on an IQ test increased all aspects of narcissistic admiration,

but it did significantly increase one aspect of it. Also, the people who were told that they did below average on the test reported lower self assessed intelligence afterwards, so the effect went both ways, and they tested lower on temporary measures of the same narcissism subscale striving for uniqueness.

So the authors say, we conclude that IQ feedback may shape people's beliefs about their intelligence, and that lay concepts of intelligence might incorporate some narcissistic elements, such as the feeling of being uniquely special. So, like any good research, this raises more questions. If it's true that being told you did well on this IQ test causes at least a temporary increase in, but not all, components of state narcissism. Is it possible that things like this could have an

additive effect over time. Could it be that various types of positive feedback about intelligence could be contributing to the narcissism of the world. In other words, like, not only are people high in narcissistic traits going around with an inflated view of their own intelligence. We already know that is true, but perhaps people all over, regular people too are being pushed in a more narcissistic direction by getting various kinds of lavish and unearned praise about how smart

they are. I think there are a lot of ways this can happen, but I'm just thinking, like every time they ask chat GPT a question, it starts the answer with, Wow, that's a great question. You are so curious and thoughtful for asking that. You know it is so special. And to be clear, like this is not to proven finding of the paper, but I think it's a really interesting question that it raises and something that would be a good subject for future research.

that was a great question. I'm a great interviewer.

personality over time. We don't know that it does, but if it does, could be encouraging people to become more narcissistic in certain ways. Now, I don't know if that were actually the case. I don't know what the remedy would be. I don't know if we should be going around negging each other all the time. That seems wrong too.

don't know what. I don't know what actually works. But yeah, so I think this does raise a lot of interesting questions, and obviously I think the investigation of the subject does not end here, Like there are more questions to ask, Like we were talking about earlier, a couple more interesting

elements I wanted to mention from the paper. One that I thought was actually quite funny was subjects who got positive feedback, who you know, were told you did better than average, rated the test as more valid than those who got negative feedback. Yeah, something's wrong with that test. And then also I'm coming back to not just regular people,

but specifically people who showed higher narcissism. Narcissism generally caused people to rate their own intelligence more highly, but this was especially true in the condition where subjects got negative feedback when they were told that they had done worse on average. This seems to indicate a very important role of narcissistic behavior patterns in ego protection. This seems to

be a lot of what narcissism is about. Narcissism means that you are more likely to ignore and discount feedback that reflects poorly on yourself, and so it is especially important in maintaining a high self assessment in the face of ego threatening information. It's kind of the narcissistic superpower is just like, you know, you don't get discouraged when you do bad on a test. It's like the test was wrong.

positives and negatives of self assessment. That you know that there are good things, there are like empowering things that can come out of positive self assessment, and there are also negative and destructive things that can come out of it, and a lot of maybe, uh, self cultivation and living the good life is about trying to understand how these things work in your own mind and balance them correctly, to empower yourself with enough positive self assessment that like

you feel you feel like you can do things and you can you know, pursue opportunities and take risks and stuff like that, but also not puffing yourself up and thinking you're better than other people.

and then you sort it out. Then you see what your capabilities are, you see what the resources are, and you find a landing spot.

inherently funny things, drunken animals and just fruit bats. Just fruit bats in and of themselves. I don't know, I'm maybe there are a few of us out there, but I just find the idea of a fruit bat hilarious. And then fruit bats in the wild are at least extremely amusing to observe.

and various insects. I think mainly you're looking at cases of the ones anyway that were coming up from me or like fruit flies. But then also there are cases with bees and nectar, so we're not talking about a weird totally like what if scenario, like what if blue

whales drink red bull? You know, it's like because you know, fruit bats, being of rougivores, are certainly exposed to ethyl alcohol via ripe fruits, or at least potential to consume them, and ethyl alcohol is present in all fleshy fruits when those fruits have ripened sufficiently, And of course it also goes without saying that this is the foundational principle behind

human alcoholic beverages as well. So the study in question here looked at the Egyptian fruit bat, that is Rosettis agypticus, which certainly can be found in Egypt along the expanse of the Nile River, but its range includes large areas throughout Africa, the Middle East, the Mediterranean, and the Indian subcontinent, so that they are not just found in Egypt. The researchers here had previously found that the marginal value of food for Egyptian fruit bats decreases when its ethanol content

exceeds one percent. They hypothesize that if ingested food containing more than one percent ethanol would be toxic today, these bats probably causing an abriation that would then affect flight and echolocation skills. And they predicted that this might be the reason why Egyptian fruit bats had previously been observed

to avoid highly ripened fruits. So this is another case where this is not highlighting something that had not been already observed to some degree, like Egyptian fruit bats seem to not really go for the hard stuff, and the idea might be, well, maybe they don't want to get slashed on super right fruit because they have to fly everywhere and that could get them into problems.

human beings as well. We may like how it makes us feel, but it can certainly make us more susceptible to injury via accident in many different ways. And I suppose you know, it would also make you more susceptible to predation in cases where an animal predator was already in play. If there's a tiger in your backyard already, you know, maybe you should limit it to two beers if you're having a backyard barbecue. That just sounds like reasonable advice.

multiple tissues and functions. It can impact cognition, reaction time, coordination, reflexes, and nerve transmission. It can make a human being trip over something in their house and hurt themselves. And we're just walking, we're not flying, and seeing the world through through our screeches and then the reception of those screeches. So with the bats here, the researchers found that yeah, Egyptian fruit bats took longer to fly between the two landing st in this study. I believe they use like

a hallway. So this is not like you know out in the wild. It's in an artificial testing environment after being fed ethanol containing food, and this, they argue, indicates that the deterrence perceived in Egyptian fruit bats for ethanol rich fruit is justified and that its ingestion can result in impaired flight and reduce decolocation skills. So again, this is one of those things that yes, it kind of sounds like a no brainer. If a bat gets drunk, it's not going to fly as well, it's not going

to echo locate as well. But this study seem to bear that out as well, because again, this would hurt the bat's ability to effectively fly from one location to the next safely, which they're having to do through, you know, in a varied environment with all sorts of factors tree, limbs, buildings, rocks, and so forth, and this could potentially make them more susceptible to predation as well. And Egyptian fruit bats have

many predators, including various raptors and owls. Also the genet which is a cat like non feline carnivore, so it's ultimately more related to something like a bentarong as opposed to a cat. But you look at it and it's very much a feline like form and you know it is and for it, the Egyptian fruit bat is on

the menu. So again like this is a study that, yeah, it is humorous, but I also I think the study is worth highlighting as well because the examples of animals that seem to readily engage in high alcohol ripe fruit consumption, like well of course, you know humans in our own way,

but also chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas. This often overshadows cases of animals that tend to avoid such fruits, which includes not only Egyptian fruit bats, but orengtex They have also been observed in the wild to avoid these super ripe ethanol rich fruits. So good role model for the teetotalers and the sober curious.

you know, does it what are its options? Like is there a case where there's just suddenly a glut of super ripe fruit and that is just what is available, Like, that's the biomass you have to consume and then you just have to roll with the consequences or do you have stuff to choose from? And can you do you have the freedom then to say no, thank you to the boozy fruit because I would prefer not to glide

into the side of a tree. Certainly something we could come back to on the show with a deeper dive. But again I think that often more emphasis is put on the fact that there are animals that get drunk off of fruit as opposed to looking at those that avoid it.