Satanic Panic

thing called Satanic panic. And uh, I feel I feel like depending on where our listeners are in terms of of age and the geographical location, they're gonna have varying levels of of intersection with this topic. Based on our previous conversations, I believe we both have varying degrees of contact with the Satanic panic of the nineteen eighties, especially time in which there was a lot of moral panic and outrage over the perceived threat of secret Satanic cults,

which sounds crazy. It may sound crazy to you, but this was a very real atmosphere. Yeah, I mean, the peak of Satanic panic was between nineteen eighty five and around nineteen two, although I think you can probably trace it even a little further back into the late seventies probably, and that for me, I'm thirty seven, I'm about to be thirty eight, So I grew up that was the

period of time when I was growing up. You know. Okay, well we're the same age, so okay, yeah, so so yeah, Like I was in elementary school while this was going on, and it was a it was something that my parents weren't necessarily as afraid of it, but I had friends whose parents were afraid of it. Uh, And then um,

we talked about this off air. But I had an experience where for a year I had to go to a private religious school and there was a lot of Satanic panic within this school, and in particular about demon possession and being the need to be exercised or even Uh. We had a classmate who was ostracized by our teacher because he was purported to be possessed by the devil. Oh wow, I mean I I definitely grew up as well in a in a family environment where a lot of there wasn't a lot of of of emphasis on

satanic panic. It wasn't really a thing in my family. But would go to church and you would you would hear about the thread or read about the thread in various youth of publications that were that were aimed at us about the dangers of say, horror literature, about of course heavy metal music, and and then there were I remember also having having friends who were really heavily involved in our youth group and being at a youth coffee house and being asked to come into a back room

to sit in on an exorcism. Uh. You know, it was this whole atmosphere, uh, you know, it was especially attractive to teens in which these these demonic forces were real. There was this there's this war between the forces of good and the forces of evil, and your soul, your mind is kind of the battle ground. Yeah, and and it's satanic panic are also you know what what the claimed practices are generally termed under the phrase satanic ritual abuse UM or s r A. For sure, we might

say that throughout the podcast. But there there was this mm hmmm uh sort of chaos about the general chaos about growing up as a human being in the world, especially as an adolescent, when you're trying to figure things out, you're trying to make sense of the world, and then along comes this narrative that's basically like you are at the center of this and either um, these underground mysterious heavy metal cults can transform your soul into into darkness,

or you you can be guarded and uh you know, come out on the side of right business. Uh and it you know, it sounds silly, it sounds very um black and white. Um, but yeah, having lived through it, like it's especially like going back and then doing the research on this and being like, oh, yeah, I remember when that happened. And but but but my little ten year old brain, you know, seven couldn't couldn't exactly make sense of it, you know. Uh, yeah, it's just some

fascinating stuff. But largely satanic panic was a combination of that. There was this idea of repressed memories being brought back, and a lot of these repressed memories were supposedly of interactions or torture within satanic underground organizations. There's secret organizations that are worshiping the devil and as part of their rights, they are abusing, often sexually, very young children, and that that is sort of where the moral panic comes in.

That gets everyone involved, at least in the children. Yeah. The again, the this is kind of ironic as I wrote a comic book called this But Think of the Children as where you always they always comes back to these moral panics, is that something is going wrong with the children. And in this particular case, it was actually true in a lot of these incidents that there were

children that were being physically abused and sexually abused. But there has not been by and large evidence that there ever was an underground Satanic network or cult that was operating and performing these these acts. Yeah. I mean, certainly there are there their individuals out there that self identify as Satanists, but Fatanist of the type that are vilified in Satanic panic. Uh, And in this movement, they never existed,

and that's something that's key to teep in mind. But that's one of the things that's so fascinating about it is that there is no actual religious group that this is Bay surround. It's all based on on hearsay and

myth making and fear. Yeah, and it's um that myth making largely came out of media sensationalism in the eighties too, And in particular, there was one hallmark that we both watched and kind of kind of went back to, which was Horaldo Rivera and had a uh an expose that was called where is it the title of this thing, uh Devil Worship, exposing Satan's underground And it was this two hour talk show that he did, interspersed with various you know, on the scene reports of Heraldo talking to

victims of Satanic ritual abuse. But then in the studio he was talking to Ozzy Osbourne via satellite. And then he had um a Catholic priest on stage, and he had members of the Church of Satan Anton LaVey's Church of Satan, not to be confused with the Satanic Panic Satanist cults that we are supposedly operating. Uh FBI agents were in the room or on stage who were supposedly, you know, tracking down these underground cults uh it rewatching it. I expected to be very skeptical, and instead I found

myself saying, Okay, I know about this. I know that this is largely a a moral hysteria that happened thirty years ago, but it's compelling. I could see why people fell for it at the time, and we're you know, deeply concerned. Um so, yeah, it's just really interesting. But so ultimately Satanic ritual abuse falls under the following claimed

practices that were being acted out by these groups. Supposedly, uh, there was human sacrifice, sexual depravity make of that what you will, or perversion uh, and that these were actual statistics that the law enforcement officials were throwing out. Fifty thousand or more people were eyeing a year in the United States of America from Satanic ritual abuse, supposedly, and uh during their torture or murders, they were forced to

consume urine or feces or blood. And there's just you know, basically anything that you can think of as being like depraved acts were placed upon uh at the at the foot of these mythological groups. I mean, I don't know if mythological is the right term to use here, but

they were fantastic. Yeah. And it's it's interesting when you start looking back, um through history, like how we got to this point because I kind of think given in terms of of a bonfire, right um, in which you have all this kindling that's built up and it gets it's to the point where you all you need is that additional spark to to really just send it ablaze, and the spark being of course, threats a threat, a threat to the children or you know, a threat to

you know, a real personal threat to yourself. Now, if you you go back far enough in time, you'll find plenty of accounts of for instance, blood Libel fourteen seventy five assignment of print blood Libel, in which an entire Jewish community was tortured over the death of a two year old Christian boy. There were, you know, the claim being that there was a ritual murder of the child. Um. You can you can find parallels and uh in which

hunts and which person persecutions throughout time. But when you're looking particularly at the twentieth century. Um, there's a historian by the name of Philip Jenkins who wrote a fabulous piece called Satanism and Ritual Abuse. And this is collected in the Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements. You believe

it's one of the last chapters in the book. Um. Yeah, it's really interesting piece, and I think it's one of the best things that I've read that sort of encapsulates the whole hysteria of the time and sort of points to their being similar themes within the Satanic panic hysteria to the rhetorical themes that were going on with fringe religions throughout history too. You know, there's an empathy emphasis

on protecting endangered children, as we already talked about. There's also this idea that religions are shaped by mass media. Yeah indeed, and um and yeah, it's the only this is the only chapter in the book that deals with a non existent religion. Like there's all deal with actual faith and splinter groups, but this is one, as we

pointed out, never actually exists. Now you have culturally resonant concepts of the Black Mass, ritual magic, uh, the witches, Sabbath all kind of merged together, and and just just setting back there in the public consciousness on on top of that, you have you have en you have tales of Alistair Crawley's Black Masses and Exotic London. Uh. They were published, they were published stories about this in the

New York World. Uh. So already you have this idea that there are there are people out there in the world that are engaging in these dark rights. Uh. You have of ninety seven Herbert Gorman's tale The Place called Dagon, which is a work of fiction about Satanist or Satanist

like cults that were descended from Survivors of Salem. Yeah, this was a fascinating find for me in the research because I am a fan of weird fiction, I'm a fan of horror fiction, and obviously a lot of that traces back to HP Lovecraft's work, and HP Lovecraft was apparently influenced by this book, and it's something that I had never heard of before. I mean, or if I did,

it just never resonated with me. Yeah. Same here he because he apparently mentions it in Supernatural Horror and Literature, which I've read, but he throws out a lot of authors and titles that, especially the modern reader is not going to be deconnected with. But apparently it's a big influence on on Lovecraft, Block, Henry Kuttner, Dennis Wheatley, various other individuals who who definitely resonated at the time and affected the weird fiction world and then the larger pulp

pop culture world to emerge from it. Yeah. And one of Jenkins arguments in this piece is that you can trace almost all the elements of the nineteen eighties Satanic panic back to this nine seven story, the place called Dagon, which ultimately you know it's summarizes being like it's a thriller that's set in western Massachusetts, which is where I'm originally from. Uh, and that descendants from Salem, Massachusetts, which if if you don't know, Salem is on the east

coast of Massachusetts. Uh, practice the you know, which is famous for the witch trials and for for witchcraft. These descendants moved out to Western mass and essentially we're performing the same satanic rituals and and uh, you know, usage of it actually ties back to what we talked about in a in a previous podcast about grimoires. The the idea of this sort of ritual magic being used and in these texts being used to perform it, it's energing.

Jenkins points out that by the nineteen thirties, uh, the roots were already there fictionally, but you also saw a few instances here and there of law enforcement actually beginning to at least entertain the possibility of sacrificial cult activities in some crimes. Yeah. I think that that's one of the really interesting things that probably helped popularize it too, right, is that, um, these various law enforcement officials, and I

don't think that they necessarily had malicious intent. They probably thought that they were They had come upon, you know,

actual leads in these stories. I mean, you know what I kept thinking of when I was reading this stuff was True Detective, the first season of True Detective, And I was like, you could look at the first season of True Detective as being about, uh, these misguided uh police officers who think that there's a secret uh ritualistic cult somewhere that's you know, running things and abusing children, which which ultimately you know, that's that's what that fictional

story is about. But ultimately that was the same narrative that these FBI agents or police officers or whomever were, you know, kind of on the hunt because the thought thought was going on they they wanted to be doing their jobs basically, Yeah, because I mean, in one hand, you have this fictional world, but then you have in these fictional accounts of Satanic rights. But then you also have, you know, in the back of everyone's mind this idea that black Mass and ritual mass, magic and the witches

Sabbath was real. You have these stories, uh that that you're you're reading about when in which there are people they're self identifying as Satanist. For instance, uh, nineteen sixty six, that's when Anton LaVey founded the Church of Satan, and obviously that makes the that makes the media rounds. People are outraged about that, even though at heart um LaVey's Satanism was really more grounded and to a certain extant satire and also uh cultural commentary and as well as

sort of Carney hijinks and fun. Yeah. I think like this is one of the really important distinctions that we should make here in the podcast that there isn't confusion for the listeners is that the Anton Lavay Church of Satan is uh an entirely different philosophy organization. They refer to themselves as a religion. Uh, then what was even

being imagined as these underground Satanic cults? And to sort of summarize it, I'm not I'm not the best at Anton LaVey uh philosophy, but my takeaway from it is that ultimately it was just about a philosophy of individualism and that Lave's thing was that each individual as their own God. And so they used quote unquote Satan as a metaphorical expression right of of having pride in yourself

and being enlightened because you were your own God. Uh. And it was ultimately about and They refer to this in the Heraldo Special Rational self Interest, But you're right, it was very a theatrical and it had like elements of datas them to it. I guess that this performance were like Llvey dresses up in these robes and has you know, his his eyebrows waxed so that they look villainous. You know, he was playing up to it, and he was using terms like Church of Satan or Book of

Satan in order to provoke people. But then they were sort of appropriated again, uh for this this panic about Satanic ritual abuse, and we're often conflated. It's really fascinating when you watch that Heraldo Special to see members of his church. I think at the time Love was dead, but like his daughter and another member of his church

who at the time was an army colonel. We're on stage and answering Horaldo's questions, basically trying to say, you know what we're talking about here, that they're completely two separate things. This, you know, Church of Satan is a ironic performance philosophy piece essentially, whereas like the the accusations of ritual abuse had nothing to do with them rights.

It is interesting that they were kind of dude to a certain extent, they were riding the wave of of the the the sort of Satanic culture, if you will, but then also end up falling falling into the trap of satanic panic as well, because you had, of course satanic elements in rock music, you had satanic exploitation cinema that you know, really came into its own, especially in

the nineties seventies, UM. And then on the other side, and do you also have some real life stuff that's happening, uh that that either has overt shades of Satanic culture to it or some some you know, more subliminal content, or even just media shades cast on it, such as Charles Manson, right right, Yeah, So Charles Manson obviously, you know, associated himself with quote the Devil or Satan, even in a looser fashion, I would say that Anton Leavey did,

and again I suspect Charles Manson. For Charles Manson, it

was largely theatrical purposes. I believe that he had a quote where he said Satan and Christ will come together at the end of the world to judge humanity, and he is actually in that Haraldo special he had I think Carldo had done like a previous special year earlier murder where he'd gone and visited Charles Manson interviewed him, and he's like, you can't even like gather any kind of coherence from their conversation because Manson is just rambling

the whole time. But uh, but Haraldo is able to kind of take that and manipulate it through edits and footage to seem like he's at the heart of the Satanic virtual abuse. And in around nineteen seven you see child abuse really becoming a trending topic in the media with years of media expose is to follow on child murder,

child pornography, kidnapping very much. Though you know the stranger danger elment of of moral panic um that that really, I mean existed before the Satanic panic and survived well after connoones to survive in many many ways. Yeah, and I mean, you know, it's understandable now to look back on it and to see why parents are probably terrified

at the time. You see real life things like the Jonestown incident happened, where there's a massacre that included many children that were killed by a cultist activity, and so that really takes on a prominent role in the media coverage of threats to children and in this this case,

religiously themed threats to children. Uh. Then of course you have you have other murderers who end up taking elements from this moral outrage and incorporating it, incorporating it into their their crimes, or at least there uh the way they end up talking about their crimes after the fact. Richard Ramire's the night stalker murderer between of eighty five. Um, yeah, he was. He was certainly more overt in it than

Charles Manson. He would mention Satan during his crimes. His first court appearance, he shows up with a pentagram drawing on his hand and he yells, Hail Satan. Uh. And of course that's just that just throws more kindling on the fire, this idea that there there's a danger here with with the with satanic individuals and they want to hurt us. And then there's this there's a danger president culture for our children. Yeah, sort of that behind the scenes,

that there there's a Richard Ramirez or a Charles Manson. Uh, you know, they could be anywhere. Basically, it's it's sort of an invasion of the body snatchers all over again. You know, it's this idea that anybody could be part of these networks, anybody uh could lure your children into danger or you, uh, and that you should be on heightened alert at all times. This explains a lot about me as an adult now having grown up in that period. I'm like, oh, yeah, now I understand why that was

so hammered into my head. You know, don't accept candy from strangers that one or like the old Is this an old wives tail or not? I don't know about a girl scout cookies with needles in them? Do you remember that? I never heard that one. Of course, I always heard the the the trick or treating uh story. You know that you need to be careful because there

might be razor blades in the apple. Yeah. We used to have to um after we were trick or true to bring all the candy home, and if it was big enough to have a razor blade in it, my my parents would, you know, break it down into smaller pieces to make sure it was safe. You gotta be you gotta be careful. I mean there was when I was growing up, there was one house in the neighborhood where the guy would put um razor blades in the

candied apples every year. But they were really good candied apples, so nobody said so we just kind of ignore it because you knew it's in there. You just know to take it out and enjoy the treat. Yeah, it's part of it's part of the experience. Um. And now another another experience. It's another activity that's often thrown into the the the into the Satanic Panic culture of course, is Dungeons and Dragons. Um. I specifically remember getting into Dungeons

and Dragons. And this is in the nineties, so this was after the Satanic Panic had died away for the most part, but I still received, uh I think a chick lit, a chick pamphlet. Oh yeah, jack chick track. Yeah, I received it as part of a birthday present from an ant one year anti Dungeons and dragons. Really. Oh,

that's fascinating. So so for listeners who don't know, a chick track is a very small comic book that is uh usually like a fundamentally Christian in nature um warning about the perils of pop culture and how they can draw you into uh not I don't know, necessarily satanic practices, but just you know, not being a good person and sending you to hell. Yeah, basically, damnation was always the threat and it and it would often include a little you know, exploitive or grizzly kind of image read to

really grab particularly young reader's attention. Yeah, they're fascinating because they incorporate elements of like the early nineteen fifties horror comps into these these comics that are ultimately against that kind of pop culture. Yeah. I love those things. You can actually go online and look at like the whole

library of them. They're fascinating. Yeah. The D and D thing for me, I uh, it must have been the late eighties early nineties when I probably started playing Dungeons and Dragons as a little kid, and shortly thereafter I had that experience where I went to the religious school that I mentioned at the top and was sort of terrified that that this box set of Dice and monster Manual and and uh, you know, the silly stuff about elves and dwarves and gnomes was somehow going to lead

to my demise and satanic ritual abuse. But I did have some pretty heavy demons in there, and the orcs and elves and then Dice. You know, there's something kind of arcane and uh yeah, and and of course, you know, like we mentioned this before when we talked about Remois in the other episode, but there's there's a lot of connections between the system of Dungeons and Dragons world of magic and the Grimoire cult world of magic. You know,

they're they're they're connected. And obviously people who weren't familiar with either of those things kind of saw them as being one and the same and subsequently associated them with satanic ritual abuse. But it's really interesting, Um, the D and D thing, there was a group that was formed

in the nineteen eighties called Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah, and there the acronym was bad and I was serving the acronym then yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, uh And I believe that they filed a lawsuit against whomever owned D and D at the time. I don't know if that was Gary Gygax or they had gone to TSR at that time or not. But this group then joined forces with this guy who's a psychiatrist named Thomas Rodecki um, because they wanted to raise the social awareness of the

dangers of dungeons and dragons. Uh. And they basically associated it with the idea of that in psychotherapy that you act out role playing as a way to sort of you know, recover, uh. And that but that within the game they were using role playing for violence and sex and fantasy, and that it would ultimately be the have the opposite effect. It would it would lead them down the wrong path. Uh. And it was linked with heavy

metal music, which we've talked about earlier. And the demons within think that this is what's fascinating to me, is it all comes around again. After this whole satanicchanic movement kind of fades away in the mid nineties, Um, you start finding out that that a lot of this, you know, their accusations weren't true. And then academics started doing a real research on dungeons and drags and they found that, Uh.

For instance, one of the accusations that bad made about dungeons and dragons was that increased the chance of, um, your kid committing suicide. In fact, I believe the founder was the mother of a of a teenager who committed suicide,

and she blamed it on dungeons and dragons. Um. But there was empirical research that proved that that, in fact was not the case, and that rate of suicide were lower in kids who probably Dungeons and Dragons, and there was also no measurable negative impact on their psychological functioning

emotional measures, or reality testing. This is all from an article in Psychology Today that was published in fourteen about Dungeons and Dragons Satan in Psychology uh and uh So their final conclusions here basically that the leaders of this group bad had completely exaggerated their own credentials. They cherry picked their data for convenience obviously of you know, making Dungeons and Dragons look bad. And then this is the

real interesting fact. So the sec chiatrists that they associated with, Riddecki uh he in particular, was arrested in for sexually exploiting his patients. Uh he was treating basically um medicine for sexual favors from his patients. So this same guy who is accusing Dungeons and Dragons of being responsible responsible for sexual abuse himself was a perpetrator. Alright. So so far we've discussed the cultural kindling for the most part that leads up to the moral panic of Satanic panic.

Uh that as uh, as historian Philip Jenkins points out in his peace, Satanism in which will abuse. Um, you can you can really trace a lot um of the the s R a Satanic which will abuse outcry to this particular book that comes out in nineteen eighty titled Michelle Remembers, UH comes out and it really cements this

notion of ritualized sexual abuse by Satanic cults. Everything we've been talking about, black robes, UM, you know, vile rights, UH, the the abuse against children, and it entails UH so called Michelle's memories that are called during therapy in the nineteen seventies of her sexual abuse in the nineteen fifties

in Vancouver. So we're talking Ozzie and Harriet Era here and that One of the interesting things about Michelle Remembers, which again this was a book that I was not familiar with before we governed any research for this UM, is that Michelle Smith, who was the patient that underwent the therapy and was the subject of this book, her therapist later became her husband. So this man who helped her uncover these memories, they also began an intimate relationship together.

But over the course of the years, many people have discredited the claims that were made within the book. UM both psychologists and I believe people from her actual past. Yeah. I think literally all of the charges that that come out of her personal accounts of this abuse comes from West African secret societies accounts of them anyway, they were imported into Canada in the nineteen fifties. But this narrative becomes really popular and and it has two key things

that does here. It leads to other survivor accounts that spring up, other people that are that are writing books about their their reclaim memories of Satanic abuse in the past. And it also really pushes into a certain example, legitimizes the theory that traumatic memories can remain dormant only to be recalled later by a therapist. Yeah, it's really the common theme that runs throughout most of the Satanic panic hysteria.

Is uh, this this this scientific idea of repressed memories being a psychological phenomenon that certain therapists are going to be able to dig deep enough and pull out this traumatic memory and make you, you know, realize what what truly aige you the way that you are? What, what

is what is actually causing your problems? Um, And it was everybody from psychotherapists to child welfare advocates, and they didn't you know, again, like the law enforcement officials that were involved, I don't think that they necessarily had malicious intentions. Maybe some of them saw some profit. I would imagine that the author of Michelle Remembers saw some good paychecks out of that book's popularity. But uh, you know, basically they thought that this was evidence of these satanic cults

actually existing, and they wanted to protect small children. That

was essentially what they saw from it, um. And so they used hypnosis or different kinds of psychological protocols to essentially, you know, save people from Satan, to save people from these past traumatic events, and to dig up uh dirt on on the actual you know, threat that was still out there, um, which which led to a lot of finger pointing and and um in some cases which we'll talk about later with like West Memphis three uh accusations

that send people to jail unjustly. Yeah, I mean, you can certainly see the attractiveness of it both on the

the treat the treatment side, and the patient side. I mean, if you're you're feeling like you're out of sorts in the world, like you have some problem, and if only you could you could just tear out the root cause of it, right, and then if there is this, uh, this narrative that's presented to you that well, perhaps in the past you were abused, uh, perhaps you were abused by this nefarious organization and all the main thing we need to do, or at least the first step, is

to get those memories out of the dark, out of the you know, the closet of your mind, and pull them out to where we can dispel them and to give you an idea of just how prevalent this was. Uh. An organization formed in around this idea of repressed memories.

It was called the False Memories Drum Foundation. And here's some statistics I found from a USA Today article at the time when it was first formed and they were interviewing them, uh, they said that, um uh, they had done a survey where they interviewed three thousand of families, and their preliminary findings were, of just these three thousand people, twenty of the children within these families said that they people who are adults now but who had been children,

say that they had been tortured in Satanic rituals. So of the three thousand people that they interviewed that that's huge to me and sounds uh like like an astronomical number when you apply that kind of generalization to the entire American population. Uh. And then there's this also interesting study.

A group psychologists at the State University of New York at Buffalo looked further into it, and they found that of eight hundred therapists UH had at least or Sorry, they interviewed thirty thousand therapists, and eight hundred of them said that they had at least once in their sessions with their patients, had come across cases of Satanic ritual abuse. So this, I mean, there was hard evidence as far as people I saw that this was happening, that it

was pervasive and it needed to be stopped. Yea. And of course, these narratives that they're pulling out there obviously informed by the the established narrative in the culture that that of the retrieve memories. But also um, all of these influences we've talked about before the culture of black Masses and Sabbaths, every Devil movie that came out but in the nineties, sixties, seventies, and eighties, all of it

coloring your perceptions, UM of the adults. Anyway, Now, what happens when you attempt to pull these uh, these these types of memories from from a small child, though, from someone who hasn't seen Rosemary's Baby, who who doesn't listen listen to who has heard Heraldo on television talking about the dangerous of death metal. It's well, we see that in UM in a very pivotal nineteen four case to make Martin Preschool UM sexual abuse case in southern California.

And this is a case where prosecutors charged that a ring of teachers were sexually abusing hundreds of small children in rituals that involved robes and masks and pentacles and church altars. And the case now is regarded as completely focused. But at the time it sent out these waves of fear just through throughout the society, got picked up on the media and just you know, boosted, uh, you know, tenfold. UM in this case, like cases to follow, uh, it

followed a particular flow. You had a limited plausible accusation of abuse that emerges at a school. Then you haven't have an investigation, and you interrogate the child and then you get this therapist derived account from from an impressionable young child child regarding what happened. And since these kids, for the most part, they have no knowledge of adult sexuality, but they but they can tell that this this concerned adult authority figure is trying to get something disturbing out

of them. So what does a small child bring to the table, what can they possibly pull out? They start talking about, well, well, they made me drink peepee, they made me yeah. Yeah. It's basically like they go for their version of whatever the worst taboo possible thing could be at the time. And you know, so of course they think of it as being things like that, uh it's the word copperphilia yea, yeah, yeah. And that McMartin

incident was one of many. Yeah, there's I believe in the Heraldo special as well that they talked about a Presidio daycare center that had a very similar kind of uh incident that was that was labeled as being potentially attached to Satanic ritual abuse. And there's an interesting part two where they talked about the mcmartins school abuse scandal, I believe, and they started comparing that their idea of Satanic rituals as being somehow associated with the Episcopal Church,

which I thought was interesting. It felt like this strange smear campaign against episcopals, as if it wasn't like a a valid form of Christianity. It was, it was brief,

It was kind of interesting. And so in both of these cases we see this established in the media and the increasingly in the public mindset, uh that Satanic ritual abuse is a threat to our children as well as to the child that we used to be, that we all could have been conceivably sexually abused by Satanist in the past, and we have only to to pull that out of our out of out of the closet of our memory. But the thing is, it's it. It goes

beyond just Heraldo Rivera right. It becomes a part of it becomes disseminated outward through professional organizations, through police, therapist, youth workers, seminars aimed at the discovery of new Satanic abuse histories. And so you reach the point by the by the nineteen eighties where the panic is spreading outward into the UK and Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, South Africa,

anywhere that American therapeutic and criminological literature is read. Yeah, yeah, And it's so the Netherlands part is one of the ones that's interesting to me. Uh. So Uh, I am a fan of heavy metal music. Uh and uh uh. The Netherlands and Norway in particular are are known for as being the home of black metal, this particular genre of metal, which was largely associated with this sort of traditionalist movement of burning down Christian churches, and some of

their members were accused and tried for murder. Uh. And so even though they didn't necessarily have I don't even think like possibly their their song lyrics have anything to do with Satan or devil worship, but because they were against Christianity again, the Satanic panics hysteria sort of spread over there. Yeah, so that the cultural kindling was perfect

for that spark to fly across the ocean and take root. Yeah. Absolutely, it's interesting to uh like how much of the messaging was, of course aimed at parents, but also a teenager's about the dangers of all this stuff about dungeons and dragons and the music. Uh. And you know, when you're a teenager, of course, all you want to do is is is find the significance in your life and and at times lash out against the authority figures in their expectations, so

you actually end up fleeing to that stuff. Like I I definitely had a copy of both that fake Necronomicon and the and the Satanic Bible, nice paperback versions of both. Satanic Bible was a bestseller. Yeah, I mean lot of I think there were a lot of both adolescence and adults with that same experience. They were like, oh, by this is you know, it's kind of a I imagine the kind of thing that you would find it urban outfitters nowadays or something near the checkout one. Yeah, but

I remember having both those books listening to Marylyn Manson. Yeah, very much engaging in that, you know, in the in the in the on one level, in the possibility that there was something to do all this darkness, but also just in the you know, need to stand apart from the adult world. Yeah, it's the traditional sort of adolescent anti authoritarian reflex, right combined with the um the hysteria at the time moving around uh Satanic ritual abuse. So yeah,

I could see whether two would be conflated. I mean, especially in a if you're if you grow up in like a Christian or even just vaguely Christian environment in which you have the the the economy of good and evil, of God and Satan, and uh, you're gonna have a tendency to sympathize with the villain in that piece. And then uh and and by his book, yeah it is,

it is right exactly. And so like my experience growing up was literally being in one of these uh private Christian schools where I was told constantly, if you do the wrong thing, uh, then you're going to be possessed by a demon and you'll possibly murder your family. I mean this was like an actual thing that our pastor

would tell us in class every day. Um. And so you know, I mean this is probably around I don't know, so so towards the tail end of this stuff, but but you know, uh, they fill fill your head with this enough. It's it's as bad, if not worse than Ozzy Osborne, ser King Diamonds. You know, Yeah, because you know that stuff is just largely engaging in fun and theme. It's theatrical. Yeah, yeah, I don't Yeah, I don't know.

As a as a person who's into heavy metal, I don't know of a lot of people are famous metal musicians that are serious members of a Satanic organization. Yeah, yeah, I mean I think of like some of the interviews I've seen with metal that I enjoy, and if you just listen to their their their their lyrics and their music, you get, you know, very much the the theme they're going for, and this is the dark, the heavy, the

you know, industrial disturbing nature of the thing. But then you see an interview with them and they seem like like goofy guys their music, and yeah, absolutely, I mean I think that that's that was probably the case with Ozzy Osbourne as well. He's in that Geraldo thing and

it's it's hilarious watching him be interviewed. He's much more lucid than the later Ozzy Osbourne of reality TV the probably Yeah, but he uh, you know, he obviously wasn't articulate enough to kind of argue on his own behalf of why he was just using these elements, this imagery and symbology, uh, theatrically as part of his stage persona, uh, rather than you know, it being directly impactful on teenagers in America committing crimes against other children or their or

their their peers. Even um there, yeah, there there were moments in that in the Haraldo special where they they're interviewing kids who were in prison for having killed uh, their their peers in school. Like uh. I can't remember the name of the particular um guy. He'd probably be a little older than us now, probably in his forties, but um, there was an interview with him and he just, you know, straight up blames it on heavy metal and satanic uh participation. I have a feeling it was Sean

Seller's repete Rowland Roland. That was it. That was the guy. Yeah, yeah, so it's um. You know, I think it was also easy for people like that who had committed these attra just crimes, to say to put the locus of control externally onto something else and to say it wasn't me, it's not inside of me. I didn't mean to do this. It was because of heavy metal or Dungeons and Dragons or and they're just yeah, they're just taking the excuse that the media is has crafted for them and presented

them and say, hey, it's not your fault. It's because you've got involved in this this thing that has a viral component, that that if you just start rolling the Dungeons and Dragons dice, if you start listening to savy metal music, that it's just a slippery slope to just violent outbreaks in demonic possession. Yeah, and that leads us to the West Memphis three. You want to talk about them now? Yeah, because I think that's certainly a case. Even though it kind of it tends to fall towards

the end of the life cycle of satanic panic. Um, it represents some of the worst, um, the worst residual effects of satanic panic, at least on you know, individual level. So this happened in between I believe was the the the actual murders happened in ninety three, I think. And uh, the trial lasted or there are multiple trials I believe

for two years. Um. But essentially, if you if you want to know more about this, I highly suggest that you go watch these documentaries that they're called Paradise Lost, Is that right? Uh? Yeah, And and they're really well put together by a crew that was basically they're shooting from the minute these guys were on trial. Uh, and it and it sort of documents the the cases throughout the twenty years. Maybe I don't know, does the I don't I haven't seen the last one. I don't think

I've seen. I don't know if it goes up to the when these guys were released, but essentially, to boil it down to its simplest terms, these three teenagers in West Memphis, Arkansas were accused of tr I and convicted from murdering three younger boys and it was supposedly part of a satanic ritual. Uh. These these three guys were all fans of heavy metal. They looked the part UH,

and it was easy to to place the blame on them. However, in eleven UH they were able to make a plea for their innocence based on DNA that was recovered from the scene, and they were released. Essentially, the judge said, UM, you're you're you're guilty up to time served. UM, so the time that they had served from until eleven and and they're out. Now you've probably seen there's UH fictional feature accounts of of this story. What's the movie that

does yet? It has a Reese Witherspoon in it as one of the mothers of the victims um and UH. Colin Firth I believe plays a private investigator who's working on their behalf to try to find evidence that that proves their innocence. It's a complex case and it's it's an extremely complicated Yeah. That's why I don't feel like we can really do it justice here without doing an entire episode. If you have bungled investigations on one hand,

you definitely have Satanic Panic and play. Yeah, and there's all kinds of stuff to weird stuff that goes on between some of the parents and the people making the documentary, where the the filmmakers themselves sort of become part of the story, and there's implications that maybe one or two of the parents might have been involved in the actual

murders themselves. It's it's really confusing and disturbing, but ultimately it comes down to that the three teenagers who were convicted of these crimes were in fact innocent, uh and wrongfully put away for crimes they didn't commit. Yeah. Of course, sad like crimes that we we do not we don't have an answer for we know who is RESPONSI yeah, exactly. That's the sad part is that the person or persons

who did do it, uh got away with it. But luckily, as we said, this occurred towards the end of Satanic Panic as it's going out as it's uh is it's leaving the public mindset and becoming far less of a media obsession. Uh. And you might wonder what what caused that? What makes us get away from that? What what creates a situation so that by um you see you see cases where the media doesn't jump on the Satanic bandwagon.

Four um abuse charges that at an elementary how do we get to the point where by you have the Columbine shootings. And despite all the various theories that come up that initially in the wake of the awful incident, Satanism is not one of them. Right, Yeah, that could have very easily have been tagged within the Satanic panic easily, and if it had occurred years earlier, no doubt it

would have. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh. There's this really interesting article that I read uh UM called the Satanic Ritual Abuse pan as a Religious Studies Data as part of the journal International Review for the History of Religions, that sort of this was written in two thousand three that summarizes sort of the the entire era of Satanic Panic and looks at this this sort of ending phase, and their conclusion is there was no evidence for abuse of Satanic

cults existing Uh, anything that connected them as as ever existing largely came from these repressed memories. Uh. And or they were extracted from small children who then subsequently recovered from what happened to them through the use of psychotherapy. But there there was there was no actual, tenable forensic evidence that these groups ever existed or responsible for these crimes.

Uh and and uh. There there's sort of a a sadder thing at play here, I think, which is that, um, that human culture maybe has a harder time dealing with child abuse or violence, especially this this kind of you know, horrific violence, as in the case of the West Memphis three, especially sexual abuse, um, without being able to place it into a fantastic narrative that it is somehow outside of the every day And that's the unfortunate part about this is that in a lot of these cases where these

children and people were abused were hurt, um, oftentimes it was just their friends or relatives, you know, it was that that is the most disturbing thing of all, because you want to be able to position that kind of thing outside of your immediate sphere out you want to place it on another and even if they look like

you and seem to be the same group. Like, if the narrative is, oh, well they're secretly a Satanist, that's far It's far easier to wrap your head around, as fantastic as some of the ramifications are, than to say, well, they're just this person that we just thought were like us, someone that lived within our sphere, within our family. Even. Yeah, this, this is a good quote that I liked from that article that addresses that the author whose last name is Frankfurter,

I don't know what his first name is. He says human memory psychologists have shown is clearly not a matter of historical snapshots, even in the cases of trauma, and it is enormously subject to suggestion, fantasy, social conditions, and cultural nuances. So largely I think that's what we're talking about here. Yeah, I mean you basically had a situation where the experts moved in, the actual experts, not the ones that would appear on like the soralto Special, and

they said, look, it doesn't exist. You had people like Kenneth Lanning, FBI lead investigator on these so called sex rings, who is a skeptical of it from the beginning, and then with an outspoken critic of it in the media had study of ritual crime allegations sponsored by the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect, and it just credited virtually everything um as a massive study, and they only found a very few cases of loan or or paired

perpetrators using ritualized tactics to intimidate children or thrilled themselves. And they looked at twelve thousand incidents and they couldn't find a single one that provided evidence quote of a well organized intergenerational Satanic cult who's sexually molested and tortured children in their homes or schools for years and committed a series of murders unquote. So UK studies end up

backing this up. The McMartin preschool case falls apart. So the media begins to realize, oh, well, there isn't anything to this story. This is uh. They start talking to the actual experts, and that the discrediting of Satanic panic becomes the media narrative for a while, effectively killing it off at least in the United States. But then, of course you have lingering elements of it that remain in

other areas, particular in South Africa, for years to follow. Yeah, and so one of the things that I think is an interesting question for us to sort of pose to ourselves and to the audiences, is uh. So we have had these uh moments of hysteria throughout human history, you know, um satanic panic. Uh. One of the ones that comes to mind for me is something that I researched here for a video that we did about, um, the Pokemon

panic in Japan in the late nineties. There was this idea that there was an incident where an episode of Pokemon supposedly caused seizures and kids and then, like I believe it was something like I can't remember the exact statistics off the top of my head, but something like three thousand kids overnight claimed that they all had seizures.

So these kinds of you know, like like we were talking about earlier about how our memory and trauma is susceptible to suggestion and cultural nuances, Um, they recur over and over again in human history. But I can't really remember a large incident of that in the last I don't decade other than ebolabola and uh and vaccines. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, movement, Well, I guess on both sides depending yeah, yeah, So it's

kind of fascinating. They have not, and neither of those I think really got the traction that stuff like satanic panic did. And I don't know why that is. Um it's interesting to think about, though, you know. Is it is it because of the proliferation of social media it spreads information faster and further, or is it uh, simply because you know, mass media has been around long enough now that there's somewhat of an innoculation maybe against the

hysteria that can be spread by it. I'm not sure. Well, there's certainly more voices in the media. Yeah, I mean they're more they're more channels, they're more people on the channels talking constantly about the subject matter. So uh, you know, maybe there's a be maybe our our media is less susceptible to long term UM panic with no grounded evidence. Yeah, it does. It does make you wonder like, could could something like which trials or Satanic panic happen today? You know,

would are we as humans, uh susceptible to that? Still? I have a feeling we are. I think it's a lot of it comes down to the particular environment that we find ourselves in. And uh and hopefully, I mean hopefully we are a little less susceptible to it, just

based on how much information is out there. It just comes down to how much information are we willing to ignore to support this uh, this this this script for what has happened or what could happen to us that fulfill some need to either make the danger more tolerable,

you know, more palpable. You know. It's like like we're saying, it's sometimes the the more outrageous explanation or something is more attractive because it's it's easier to handle, because it's it's it's that you position it outside of the atmosphere and it has lines and boundaries that you can sort of use to yeah to again, like stick to the narratives, stick to the strip, to the script, and um somewhat to try to understand experiences that are so horrifying that

normally otherwise you wouldn't be able to understand them. All Right, So there you have it, Satanic panic. Um. We took you through it from the beginning to the end of it. Uh. And we would love to hear from any of you out there who, like us, have some element of their childhood immersed in the world of Satanic panic, or if you came about after Satanic panic, but we'd love to hear, you know, an outsider's take on on all of this, UM, like, do you see any of these elements at work in

your in your modern world? Um? If you would like to learn more, check out the landing page for this episode, it's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. I'll conclude links out to some of the resources that we mentioned and what about you, sir? You can find me personally at Christian Sager dot tumbler dot com. Uh and UH for the how stuff Works content that I produce. I am primarily working on the brain stuff YouTube channel. If you haven't seen that yet, check it out. That's our

general science channel. UH. And I also work on the main house stuff Works YouTube channel as well, where we're producing shows like what the Stuff UH and interviews and content like that cool cool. Thanks much again to Christian for joining me here UH. And in the meantime, you want to get in touch with me, you can reach out to Stuff to Blow your Mind at how stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com