Presenting Prodigy: The Polgar Sisters

Lowell Balante, and this is prodigy. If you're like me, you believe that a prodigy is a rare combination of genetic talent, environment and effort. But some people have made a lot of money selling the idea that talent doesn't exist and that the driving force behind expert performance is just effort. They also call it hard work or practice. A common way they introduced this idea is by using the example of the Polgar sisters. Here is their story.

Before his children were even conceived, Laslow Polgar believed they would be prodigies. Laslow is a Hungarian educational psychologist born in nineteen forty six. As a university student, he studied intelligence and came to the conclusion that people who were recognized as geniuses had early introduction to their domain. Laslow is quoted as saying, it's very interesting because when I looked at the life stories of geniuses, I found the same thing. They all started at a very young age

and studied intensively. Mozart is a classic example because his father was a music teacher. Mozart began learning to play the piano at three years old. He developed perfect pitch and became so famous that his name is interchangeable. A genius. So Laslow theorized that early specialized education is far more important than talent. He concluded that introduction should begin at three years old and intensive education should begin at six.

Laslow was so confident that he became determined to prove that he could turn any healthy newborn into a genius, and he decided he would do it with his own children. Laslo began courting the daughter of a family friend. She was a Ukrainian foreign language teacher named Clara. They wrote to each other often, and in the letters Blow disclosed his plan. Claire thought he was a little strange, but became convinced, and after a year and a half he proposed.

Laslow and Claire married and had a daughter they named Susan. They considered various topics for Susan to specialize in, originally considering mathematics and language, But one day the toddler found a chessboard in a cabinet and became intensely curious. Years later, Susan would say he could have put us in any field, but it was I who chose chess. I liked the chessmen. They were toys for me. Here's a quick introduction to the game of chess. The board is a square made

up of sixty four smaller squares. Each player has sixteen pieces which control one fourth of the board. Those pieces include six different types, made up of eight pawns, two rooks, two nights, to bishops, one queen, and one king. Players alternate turns with the goal of apping their opponents king. Once the game begins and each player makes their opening move, there are now four hundred different possibilities for their next move.

After their second move, they're over seventy two. After three moves there are nine million, and after four moves they're over three eighteen billion. To put this in perspective, the observable universe is estimated to have approximately ten to the eighty atoms. That's a ten with eight zeros after it. The number of possible permutations of chess is estimated to be ten to the one twenty three, so the quantity of possible games is nearly unlimited. This is why chess,

while easy to learn the basics, has infinite layers. Chess, Clara said, is objective and easy to measure. Chess is what's known as a zero sum game, which means the winner takes rating points from the loser. Those points out up to your rating in what's known as an Elo rating system. In an Elo rating system, two equally rated players facing off should win an equal number of times,

thus winning and losing an equal amount of points. But if a lower rated player defeats a higher rated player, then they're awarded more points than if a higher rated player defeats a lower rated player over the course of many games. This system is designed to give players a rating consistent with their skill level. Laslow only had an amateur understanding of the game, so how would he turn

his children into grand master level players. He published a book in nine titled Raise a Genius, where he discusses his method. The first thing he states is that there is no secret to his system. It's based on the following standard educational concepts. You can't achieve results through coercion. Too much severity will diminish the child's interest. Allow the child to win sometimes so they are given the feeling of success. Play with a handicap, then gradually reduce it

as the student becomes better. The training must be age appropriate. Use games to awaken interest, because students master subjects much more quickly when they are interested. So he gradually taught Susan the basics of chess one concept at a time, and kept her interested by making smaller games out of it. The first thing he did was teacher the names of

the squares using pieces of graph paper. Since chess consists of an eight by eight square grid, the row of squares facing the player are labeled alphabetically A through H, and the perpendicular squares are numbered one through eight. Laslow gives Susan a location B three, for example, and she would have to mark it with an X. Next, he taught her the colors of the squares, which alternate between black and white. After Susan learned the layout of the board,

he introduced the simplest piece, the pawn. They would play pawn wars with the goal of reaching their opponents baseline. Then he introduced the next piece, and so on and so forth. Mastering the basics is a critical concept where Laslow believes standard education fail students. Without it, you cannot master more complicated subjects. My father believes that innate talent is nothing, that success is hard work. I agree with him. Susan Polgar. Susan is the firstborn child of Laslow and

Clara Polgar. She played her first major tournament in an eleven and under Championship at only four years old and dominated with a perfect ten and no score. The media labeled her a prodigy, but there were many who were critical. They believed little girls should play with dolls, not chessboards and wooden pieces. At six years old, it was time for her to go to school. Her parents decided that formal education would be more harmful than helpful and decided

to apply for a permit to homeschool Susan. It was a very difficult process, but they did eventually receive permission. The following five years were spent studying chess to improve tactical and calculation skills. She read books, studied famous grandmaster games, learned to play blindfolded and practiced her endgame. When Susan was twelve, she won the sixteen and Underworld Championship. By age fifteen, she was the number one ranked female chess player in the world and remained in the top three

for the next twenty three years. She became the first woman in history to qualify for the men's World Championship. In nights one, she became the first woman in history to achieve the men's Grand Master title. In two thousand three, she became the first woman to win the USO and Blitz Championship. She went on to win it again in

two thousand five and two thousand six. She became the first World champion in history to win the Triple Crown, which consists of rapid, blitz, A and classical chess all total. She is a five time Olympic champion. Susan was not an only child, and when Sophia was born in nineteen seventy four, chess was already taken seriously at home. When Sophia was five years old, she won the Hungarian Girls

eleven and Under Championship. She won the gold medal in the Under fourteen Girls World Chess Championship at age eleven, when Sophia was fourteen, while playing in an open tournament in Rome, she delivered one of the strongest chess performances ever recorded, defeating four grand master level opponents and scoring an ELO rating of two thousand, eight hundred and seventy nine. It has since become known as the Sack of Rome. She finished second at the Rapid Women's World Chess Championship

and s get in the World Junior Chess Championship. Although she never reached the level of grand master and hasn't played competitive ranked chess since two thousand ten, she was at one point ranked six amongst all female chess players in the world by chess standards. Sophia is the least accomplished of the three sisters, but Susan considered Sophia the

most naturally gifted of them. Susan wrote in her book Breaking Through that Sophia would give up fights easier, and rather than focusing on one thing entirely, she diversified her interests. Two years after Sophia, Judah was born. By the time Juda turned three, both Susan and Sophia were playing competitive chess. They lived in a small apartment and her older sisters were training in the living room behind closed doors. Judah was forbidden to go into the room, and as you

can imagine, she very much wanted to. Her parents told her she could enter. Once she learned to play chess. From an early age, Judah loved challenges. She would take the stairs when everyone else took the elevator, So the challenge of chess suited her. Judah would become the strongest female chess player of all time. She was the youngest player to break into the top on international chess ranking

at only twelve years old. She achieved the title of grand Master at age fifteen, several months younger than even Bobby Fisher. Gary Kasparov, considered by many to be the greatest chess player of all time, once said she has fantastic chess talent, but she is, after all, a woman. It all comes down to the imperfections of the feminine psyche. No woman can sustain a prolonged battle. Judah defeated him

in two thousand two. After the loss, he has quoted as saying the pulgar showed that there are no inherent limitations to their aptitude, an idea that many male players refused to accept. Until they had unceremoniously been crushed by a twelve year old with a ponytail. Jude was the number one ranked female player in the world for twenty one years. She's the only woman to have ever won a game against a world number one ranked player. All total,

she has defeated eleven current or former world champions. Although none of the sisters accomplished Laslow's goal of becoming the world champion for both women and men, Judah did reach the overall rank of eight, which was an unimaginable achievement. Chess had been completely dominated by men until the Polgar sisters broke the gender barrier and proved that women can

compete with men at the highest levels of chess. Laslow's educational experiment was incredibly successful, but as with any experiment, it has to be repeatable. We'll get into that after a quick break. Still living in and manually taking notes, start the new year with otter dot ai to generate automatic notes for meetings, interviews, or lectures. With auto dot ai, you can search the meeting notes, insert images, playback the audio,

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Welcome back to Prodigy. So I'm interested in the pollgars actually were suited for chess or if this method could be repeated with any child. I contacted a child psychologist who has worked with gifted children for decades, Dr Spamanka Newman. I began by asking her to define what a prodigy is. We have extraordinarily advanced and very early domain specific skill, and then we have a child who exhibits ability to perform in the domain as he is a talented adult.

In popular media, sometimes people refer to very smart children as geniuses, But genius is an adult. That adult doesn't just have a skill in a domain, but transforms a domain in a way that is irreversible. As a result of a genius, we start thinking differently about something that is very important and it has a lasting value. Children prodigies have early promise and they have early performance, but they might not transform the field. They just perform in

the field as though they are talented adults. I know this may be a different definition of genius than you're used to. The word has evolved over time, and psychologists seem to prefer not to base the word on an IQ test result. Last lous ability to initiate and retain interest in his children. It seems rather critical. What was the significance of his method. We are having extraordinary talent here,

but we are also having a child. You may have potential to achieve in learning chess as an adult, but you are three year old. Three year olds play. Unless learning is a play, it might not be sustained for a long time. Plays rewarding place, exhilarating, place, energizing. Like in every development of mastery in any field, there is a point later where there is going to be transitioned from play to discipline. Mastery cannot be achieved without disciplined practice,

but that comes later. If that is introduced to early, it may kill the joy and so the child might lose interest. Regardless of what I think, Laslow did state what his plan was, and it worked, could it not be reproduced with other children? There is that intersection of a parent who is already having a child with exceptional potential, drive and interest. That can lead that potential into realization.

But I don't think it can create a prodigy. Most parents would try that if they don't have the child with a potential and interest, create very angry, resentful children who actually at the end don't love what they are exposed to. So Dr Newman believes that loudslow success was a coincidence and would not be as effective with the average child. And she's not alone. Here's Dr Scott Barry Kaufman. Feldman noted, there's usually a lucky coinciding of lots of

different factors. You know, they usually do find a parent who accelerates the process in some way. And here's Dr Feldman himself. I asked him about the belief that any healthy child is a potential prodigy. That's the behavior of belief, and a lot of people bought it and still do that you can make any child into anything, and it's not true. So that they got to just is maybe fortunate in their case. If they had tried something else,

the probabilities are not in their favor. They probably would not be known to us as the Polgar family, they probably wouldn't be known to us at all. Laslow believed that genetic predisposition was irrelevant. However, if that were true, wouldn't his daughters either have the exact same skill or increasing skill As he refined his method. While the youngest sister, jude It, was the most successful, the middle sister, Sophia, was the least. To me, this shows the influence of genetics.

Genetics can indirectly influence our attention and influence our drives to want to create experiences for ourselves. I mean, they're all throughout the course of the day. We have a million little micro decisions we have to make. These things add up starting at a very very young age. I think genes can help direct our attention to features of the environment that we find interesting and help us ignore

features of our environment that we don't find interesting. Based on my research of Susan Paulgar, I think she might disagree, so I reached out to her. I was very curious whether she applied the same strategy to her own children. I began by asking her if inherent talent was important. Well, it definitely, how although I think it's very much overrated in many people's minds. I think hard work definitely is

a much more important ingredient in someone's success. So I I certainly agree with my father's theory that success is mostly hard work and sweat rather than the innate talent. I wasn't necessarily an extraordinarily talented chess player when I was born, but rather that it took years of persistant practice and devotion that resulted in my success. Do you believe that you might have been born with genetic traits

that were suited for chess. Well, it's obviously hard to tell, but I don't think I had a very special talent for chess. There are other types of talents that are more generic, like having the patients to focus on a particular subject for a lengthy amount of times and having the perseverance or this type of more generic human Well, it is I think I'm more important than than the specific talent for a certain activity. Why do you think

early specialization is so important. I think that children rest certain concept and dynamic of the various activities. It becomes second nature as you grow up. You don't think of it as a study or work or anything like that. It just kind of becomes normal and natural for you. And that's something I think it is hard to teach, and I think that's a very important component of my

father's theories. The brain is like a sponge. You grasps the knowledge the dynamics of of the certain field just so much clicker and naturally then than it would later. Often you find prodigies and families where a parent was talented in the domain and accelerated the process. Was your father a skuillt chess player, as well. He was not a professional chess player ever, or even a competitive as players.

He had very limited skills as a chess player. However, he was a teacher and a psychologist by education and profession, so he had amazing skills patients and asking the right questions. And initially we were learning together. I mean he was ahead of me a bit, but we were learning together from books. The mark of a good teacher is to a having the patience keeping the interest of the students, and then not less importantly, keep asking stimulating questions and

the right type of questions. And he was really really good at that, in creating my interests and then keeping my interests, which is not easy. I can tell you as a as a mother and as well as a coach that, especially of young children who are four or five six years old, it's not easy to keep the interest for an extended period of time. But he was really good at it's making it's fun. I remember I couldn't eight for for the next lesson, for the next discoveries.

How exactly was he able to first get you interested in chess? Well, he he made it sound like a fairy tale story, you know, like the King and the queen in the castle and the fortress, and it's not competitive. And I think the fact that he did not emphasize the competitive aspect of chess in the beginning was important. Susan was monumental in breaking the gender barrier that existed in chess. She was the first woman to become a men's grand master. But I was curious if she resented

missing out on a typical childhood. Well, at some point, obviously, I realized that my life is somewhat different than of my peers. I certainly missed out on something. But I understood also at the same time, even back then in my teenage years, that while I am giving up on some things, I'm getting a lot of other things that they miss out on and may never get those opportunities. Your parents dedication to your training must have been an incredible amount of work. Did you use the same educational

method on your own children. I definitely did, consider it did not exactly happen right like that for a number of reasons, partly because I got divorced pretty early on from their father. Also, it takes a lot of sacrifice from the parents perspective. I had to focus on my career at the time, and wasn't in the position to fully focus on them. You were obviously born from some really intelligent parents. Do you think your father could have

reproduced the success with adopted children. I think it could have, and I know that he was approached by some people in trying to see if he can, and he was ready and willing to do it, but he did not want to do it with two children unless he was able to actually legally adopt them. That was a little bit complicated, and eventually it never happened. But he does And if I believed that he could have done it,

it's obviously a very long term experiment or project. It's like a fifteen twenty year project, and it's a matter of having the energy to to do it all over again. In fact, he believed that he would have been even more successful because he had the experience, and he he would have not had made some of the mistakes that he made back with us, but he could have improved on them. Also, we were growing up very poor, you know, years later, and this was in question. He would have

had much more resources to make it easier. Since your sister Sophia displayed such a strong aptitude. I was really curious as to why she never reached the rank of grand Master. Sophia has a different personality and she always had a lot of interest in art. She's quite a good artist. She basically gave up relatively early and chose a very different lifestyle, mostly to support her husband and

the raised the family and and all that. But it's also that she has skipped at one point a month or month and a half from just away from home.

By the time she came back from that trip, her younger sister Judd kind of made a Humongo's jump and it was kind of difficult for her, I think, to handle that she is older, and before she left on the trip she was clearly ahead of Judy as she was expected to beg than that she is older, and basically the month month and a half or so that she was away and didn't practice at all, it just made a world of a difference. All of a sudden, Judy it was fitting her and the whole dynamics changed

and her motivation level dropped. And on one hand, of course, she was very happy for Judy's but at the same time for her own motivation it was white life changing, I think. And then after that she never really why it got back, even though she showed some brilliants and she had some amazing results even years later. But nevertheless, I think she lost the belief that she will be as good as student, even if the goal is not to create a grand master. Do you think it's beneficial

to teach your child to play chess? Chess with your children is definitely a verse, while endeavor, if for nothing else, to develop the mind, to develop good habits that can are transferable for any other field. Susan has retired from competitive chess. She's currently the head coach of the number one rated collegiate chess team in the United States. She's led them to five Final Four championships along with dozens

of national, World, and Pan American titles. Remember those people I mentioned in the beginning that sell the idea that talent is unimportant. Well, the reason why they used the Pulgar Sisters as an example is because when you first look at their success, they seem like genetically talented prodigies. Once you dig into their story, you realize the massive amount of training and practice they accrued by starting so young. This reinforces their argument that the most important predictor of

performance is practice. The first issue I see here is that the example uses the demand of chess, but as chess an accurate representation for other domains. We'll get into that. After a quick break at Target, we come in for black owned coffee and leave with change in our hands. We come in for healthier snacks and leave feeling more fulfilled at Target, better days are within our reach. What

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speed Internet and compatible device. Content varies by package and location restrictions supply, welcome back. If you want to learn more about my guests, the research, my dog, or get in touch with me, visit Prodigy podcast dot com. All right back to the show. To me, competitive games like chess are fun, But what I'm really interested in is do these lessons actually apply to other areas like your career. Professor Robin Hogarth came up with the reason we should

differentiate domains like chess compared to others. He refers to skill games and sports as kind learning environments. Yeah, you're here is the following. When is an intuition going to be successful? Where will an intuition be accurate? An intuition will be accurate if, in fact, it's based on the right information. So if you've learned learned about the situation you're involved with in the past, in an environment is what I call kind where you've got good feedback, You'll

be able to see all the data. Everything's been clear to you and it's well laid out. The environments are going to change. That's what's what we call kind running environment. So in a kind learning environment, the rules don't change, feedback is immediate and all the data is clear to you. Chess is a kind learning environment, so time accrued memorizing patterns is valuable, and early specialization is an advantage. The

opposite learning environment he refers to as wicked. But on the other hand, you can also be in a wicked learning environment where are you getting the wrong information, where there's a lot of noise in the system, and perhaps even where data is missing. So that's the difference in your kind in a wicked learning environment, And we think it's very important to understand where you're forming your opinions,

whether you're in a kind environment or wicked environment. In wicked environments, feedback is delayed, inadequate, or simply doesn't exist. Data can be ambiguous and even misleading. Hogarth used the following example. An early twentieth century physician working in a New York hospital developed a reputation for being able to accurately diagnose typhoid before symptoms manifested simply by feeling a patient's tongue. It turned out that the doctor was actually

infected and giving the patients typhoid. It's an extreme example, but it shows how in a wicked environment, feedback can teach the wrong lessons. So if you want to improve your performance in a wicked environment, should you try and turn it into a kind one. Absolutely. One of the interesting things about experience and learning is that we learned automatically.

We can't help it. We were just tuned to picking up information so that we're exposed to and because of that, if the environment is kind to learn the right thing, environment is wicked. Rule in their own things, quick, accurate, and abundant feedback is critically important. Chess is a very kind environment. The rules don't change, the games are easily recorded, and you can try cur rating as a measure of performance.

The pollgars had the benefit of grand master level coaches throughout their training, so early specialization can definitely be an advantage, but the major value in it might just exist in kind learning environments. Also, early specialization might not actually be

much of an advantage at all. Professor Gulick, director of the Institute of Applied Sports Science in Germany, published a study in the Journal of Sports Sciences that compared the training history of eighty three Olympic medalists to eight three Olympic non metalists. The results showed that the medalists actually started training in their main sport later than the non metalists. Additionally,

the medalists accrued more time training in other sports. This is really interesting and I asked Professor Gulik what the reason was, and the answer was, we don't know because it's really difficult to study. But he does have a couple of hypotheses. The first one is that early specializers become mentally fatigued a k A. Burnout, were succumbed to the increased risk of injury. The other is something known

as the gene environment correlation. We'll get into this in a later episode, but briefly, the idea is that our genetic traits have an influence on what environments we seek out. A basic example is, if you are a very tall and lean you may be drawn to the high jump. However, a person who specializes early in basketball due to these same physical characteristics may not realize they are actually better

suited for the high jump. So late bloomers have more time and opportunity to find the domain best suited for them. I think it's worth noting that Laslow didn't actually choose the domain, Susan did, so the claim that they could

have chosen any domain doesn't really hold much weight. Here's Dr Feldman, one of the few people who was actually directly studied prodigies, And there is a whole movement making this claim that talent is irrelevant, and I and others school have actually done the work have tried to show that the evidence does not support that claim, and it does.

It's a reasonable claim if you're arguing that effort and sustained effort and teaching are essential to high level performance, and that is absolutely true that it's part of what I learned from my prodigies research. It's not something that happens easily even with the most gifted, the most extraordinarily talented kids. But to ignore the fact that they are

extraordinarily naturally talented kids, it's just ignoring the evidence. The evidence is very clear, and anybody within any of the fields that we've studied, people who actually do it, knows that that's true and will assert it. Everybody knows that that's true. Dr Kaufman has some really good advice about finding your calling, finding a service from outside of yourself, not just that you can do, but that also makes you feel intrinsic sense of joy and satisfaction when you

are engaging in it. That's enough. You don't have to be go go on the TV circuit for your amazing ability to do one narrow thing in order to feel like you've lived a meaningful life. The behaviorists who champion the power of practice don't just use sensationalized examples like the pollgars to make their argument. Another thing they do is cite a particular study that is at the very core of their argument. It was published by a researcher that would come to be known as the father of

expert performance, Dr Carl anders Ericsson. We're going to dig into the details of that as well as how we learn and what is physically happening in the brain when we do. I have so many questions to answer and a ton of really interesting topics to cover. Thank you so much for listening, and please subscribe to the show because I'll be back next week with another episode of Prodigy. Prodigy was created and produced by me Lowell Berlante. Tyler

Klang is the executive producer. Without him, this show would not have been made. If you want to learn more about my guests, the show, my dog, or get in touch with me, visit Prodigy podcast dot com. Dr Spomanka Newman performs psychological assessments and therapy in Tucker, Georgia. You can find more information at Psychologist for Kids dot com. Robin Hogarth released a book titled The Myth of Experience, Why we learn the wrong lessons and Ways to correct them.

Susan Polgar Foundation TACs chess and gives opportunities to young people. You could find more information at Susan Polgar dot com. Dr Scott Berry Kaufman is host of the Psychology podcast and has a new book out. Visit Scott Berry Kaufman dot com for details. Dr Feldman is a brilliant psychologist. He's currently retiring but hopes that more people will take the initiative to study the prodigy phenomenon. If you like the show's artwork, checkout Pam Peacock on Instagram at The

Voyager Peacock Spell Show. Thanks to ban Kybrick, Tristan McNeil, Michael Meyer, Dave Kuston, Alison Canter, and Alex Cardinelli. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How do you prepare your kids today to succeed in tomorrow's world? With Juny the online Learning Experience Equipping the next generation of students to solve the world's largest problems.

Choose from popular Steam courses like coding, investing, novel writing and all new robotics, crypto app development, three D design and more. With all types of learning formats and project based curriculum, your student will be ready to take on the real world. Visit j U and I learning dot com and enter promo code I Heart thirty at checkout for thirty percent off. Still living in manually taking notes, there is a better way to start the new year

with auto dot ai. Automatically get meeting notes. Auto dot ai works for virtual meetings like Zoom, Microsoft Teams and Google Meet. Sign up on the web for free or download in the app stores. Auto dot ai. That's O T T e R dot ai. Still living in manually taking notes? There is a better way to start the new year with auto dot ai. Automatically get meeting notes. Auto dot ai works for virtual meetings like Zoom, Microsoft Teams and Google Meet. Sign up on the web for

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