On Teasing

One person is teasing another person over something kind of funny, some funny foible of their personality, and there's that moment, there's that awful little moment where there's kind of a pause after somebody says some some teasing joke and then you realize like, oh no, suddenly it has gotten serious. Oh yes, I mean it's especially if it it's a multi person group and and there's a bit of piling

on occurring. They'll be there, I've seen this, this happened, where they'll they'll be a breaking point where the person has had an enough and and and you realize, oh, no, lines have been crossed, and now this person who is gonna leave and we're gonna have to resolve this uh via emails later. Uh yeah. And it's a ter it's a terrible feeling because things have spiraled out of control. Something that was playful and um and just part of hanging out has now become a divisive email the best

place to work out tense social disputes. Well sometimes sometimes it depends. I mean, I guess it depends on what role one had in the in the breakdown. I've been fortunate enough to to not be like at the epicenter of the of the breakdown generally, so um email tends to suffice for me. You know, you never have to worry that when you type a smiley emoji that will look like a fake smile. When you actually smile at somebody, you always gotta worry like does this look real? Is

my face moving? Right? You just have to use the authentic smiling emoji, not the inauthentic one. You know, it's all on the micro expressions of the emoji. What's the authentic one that's like colon and clothes brackets? Oh no, I'm talking about the ones that actually like the little yellow face with the smile, like you'll know what when

you see it. But is everyone can realize at this point, we're talking about teasing today on the show, and teasing is weird territory to try and figure out deceptively, so really, um, for many of us looking back on our childhoods, it's it makes up some of our worst memories of social interaction. And as a as a parent, I have a lot of apprehension about it, you know, regarding my own child,

the inevitable struggles that he's gonna gonna face. And at the same time, there's this weird cult of the tease that is often difficult to understand. We see teasing in our media, and it's sometimes presented as in a fun comical light. We also see adults for whom teasing is a standard part of their interactions, not fighting with each other, but but just picking in various ways that it's it seems like they're just terms of endearments, joking, benign criticism. Yeah,

and it and uh. It's often a case where I look at it and I realized, well, this is clearly part of their social dynamic. It wouldn't necessarily work in my social dynamic. But I guess it's okay. Uh. We see it factor into courtship as well, which also has a way of of seeming weird and sour at times of an outside perspective. Right. Well, I mean there's there's two very different ways it can take place. There's a kind you can see, a kind of friendly, sweet teasing

that takes place between people in a courtship relationship. And then there's like the pickup artist version of it, where somebody's clearly like making a power play. Right. And then likewise we also see this this space, this sort of ambiguous space where playful teasing gives over to what is clearly something based in hate and abuse name calling uh that occurs among children and even among adults. Obviously even at the highest levels of government, you see name calling

used in a in a hurtful fashion. So if you start, if you start picking out and I imagine a lot of your doing this as well, thinking of all the varying levels of teasing that are going on in your immediate environment and um in politics and the media, etcetera. On the street as you're driving your car and listen

to this podcast. You know, it's enough to make you wonder if if we're just nothing more than just cruel apes jockeying for social position, uh, And it's any wonder that we managed to emerge from these social interactions with self esteem and respect for our fellow humans. But part of the issue here is that while all forms of teasing share common features, there are at least three distinctive forms of teasing that are often signal, that are often

singled out and definitely deserve mention here. Okay, well, what would those forms be? All right? Well, the first is pretty obvious, and that is that is the hurtful teasing. And I think it's one of those things where we all we all know it when we see it, right or hear it. This is obviously the domain of bullying and harassment, and yet at the same time it's the sort of teasing you might see in a celebrity post or some of you are more viciously charged a humor

or political humor. I guess you could also say it's maybe the domain of the jester, the fool, and the clown. Uh and important These are important roles throughout human history. Oh yeah, well, I mean I might argue that the fool in the Shakespearean sense requires its own category here, because the fool has a lot of power and freedom, and that's important power and freedom. Like they're the only member of the lower classes who can point out the flaws of the monarchs and the upper classes and get

away with it. There's something about the ridiculousness of the fool that allows a critique of power that might result in a beheading if you made the same critique in a serious tone. And likewise, a king who beheads a jester every week is a terrible king. They look weak. Yeah, it makes the king look foolish if the king overreacts to a to a comical critique, right, I think you're pointing Joffrey from Game of Thrones is this type of

ruler where you realize how he's terrible. He's totally incompetent. Look how thin Skinndy is against Uh, the humorous criticism of the the court fool. Well, it codes so easily for us. I mean, one of the clearest signs of a toxic personality is somebody who's unable to accept criticism and even benign criticism, or to be the butt of a joke. You know, somebody who cannot tolerate that, especially because of the positive role that teasing plays in our culture.

I mean, there's so much teasing that is not hurtful, hateful. I mean it is a constant feature of conversation between friends, between couples, between family members, between educators and the people they educate. Teasing, you know, there's like a sweet, benign form of teasing that's absolutely essential to these relationships. You know.

I do have to add one more thing about the gesture first, though, and there is there is this this curious aspect of the dying ammic you see with kind of a classic gesture situation, but also in modern political humor, there are two extremes that are both equally well, maybe

not equally, but they're both cringe worthy. Certainly when the king, the rule or the politician, whoever the celebrity is too thin skinned to let humorous bashing go where they have to call out, say, you know an episode of Saturday Night Live, right, if you made a joke about me, how dare you right? Yeah? That is is cringeworthy and awful.

But on the same hand, and this is something that I believe it was pointed out on an episode of Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History podcast, there's also this danger in what happens when the king says, yeah, this gesture guys, great, I'm going to hang out with him and do a skit with him, or or yeah, that's Saturday Night Life skit is funny. I'm gonna appear on that Saturday Night Life skit with the person doing an impression of me.

There can be uh, too much protection of one's dignity is a bad sign, but too much surrender of one's dignity also looks kind of bad. Like you got to find the middle ground. You want the ruler that that ultimately has very little to do with the gesture and doesn't politely laughs perhaps but leaves it at that. I know exactly what you're talking about. Like when presidential candidates go on SNL, that's always like, I don't know, it's

just always terrible. Yeah. But one of the points that Malcolm Gladwell made in his show is that it takes the punch out of the political humor, like you managed in a way. It's like it's a genius move I guess for the politician, because you have you have killed the humorous skit. You have you have killed the power of the humor in a way that you could never do by attacking it. Well, yeah, I guess it doesn't make you look great, but it also is a type

of defense mechanism. It undercuts any truly biting criticism that's hidden there in the in the comedy. If you go on stage with the comedian. Yes, oh, but before we were talking about the jester, we were we were about to get into playful teasing. You know, the sweet form of teasing, right, And obviously there's a line between hurtful and and u and playful teasing good luck finding, especially

with people you're maybe not that familiar with. But yeah, especially in close relationships, you tend to see these you know, you see in jokes and you see established safe zones for playful teasing. Uh. For instance, if my wife teases me about some nerdy hobby of mine, uh, it's it's really more of a form, more of a term of endearment. Or if she teases me about liking robot music, like like really robotic sounding electronic music, and uh and teasing

me about how awful it sounds. Uh like like this is that this feels good when we're doing it. I don't feel hurt or defensive about you know, my my love of dungeons and dragons, or or or my miniatures painting miniatures, or yeah, or my affinity for the music of autech or that sort of thing. Yeah, I think almost all good romantic relationships include an element of teasing. I don't, you know. I don't want to be overly general.

So maybe some people people make it work in all kinds of ways, but I rarely see what seems like a happy couple that doesn't tease one another, right, I mean, it seems like you do. And this is something we're going to return to throughout this episode, this idea that that teasing it is, is an opportunity for bond forming and the establishment and the maintaining of bonds. And but

obviously you need a safe place for the teasing. Just you know, all of us, I think we're going to have, unless we are some sort of like in human politician type, you know, we're going to have those areas that we are cool being teased about in areas that we're less comfortable being teased about. You know, thinking about several of the areas that that teasing functions in our our social interactions, one of which is sort of reminding people of hierarchies

or establishing hierarchies. That it does something of enforcing a pecking order. Number two is maybe like establishing a criticism of somebody's behavior. And number three is allowing bonding. Put these three things together, and it seems like a key place where teasing should come into play is education, right, because that's a place where you need a hierarchy between teacher and student. You want to teach lessons and you

also want to have a good relationship. That's right. So this brings us to this third area of teasing, educative teasing, and this pops up in areas that you wouldn't quite expect it as, as we'll discuss a little later. One example is that is that of a frat boys giving each other nicknames based on, you know, various bone headed things they've done. Uh And and this can be viewed as a way of of educating, of laying down various

um moral rules or or social expectations. Right, you teasing, you might get nicknamed like, I don't know, toilet head because you fell asleep with your head in the toilet, right, And the idea is, don't do that. Don't drink so much that you sleep in the toilet. But then again, one of the things I noticed about that kind of teasing is that toilet head might originally be applied as a sort of like moral injunction. But that toilet Head make may well come to identify with the nickname and say,

that's right, that's who I am. I am toilet Head forevermore, and I will embrace it. Yeah. Now, some anthropologists point to specific traditions of educated teasing between parents and children in various Indigenous American um cultures, and the idea here is that it's a form of teasing that can work better to impart knowledge of social rules and emotionally instilled ideas. However, we we didn't really focus on any of that for this research, but I just want to let everyone know

that that that is an area of study. Now, as far as these three terms for types of teasing go, I I feel like there's some difficulty in how we use terms here because I admit that I would typically reserve the word teasing for the more benign or playful forms what we were calling hurtful teasing, the kind that's actually cruel and mean spirited. I would not usually call teasing. I'd probably call it bullying or harassment or something. Um though.

It's what what this highlights is that the line between playful teasing and hurtful bullying is not always clear. It's not always clear to the person doing it. It's always not always clear to the person receiving it. What sometimes ment is benign or playful by the teaser can feel like bullying to the teaz and sometimes more benign or playful forms of teasing. I bet you've been there for this. I think we sort of talked about it at the beginning. It starts off as a friendly and playful session of

ribbing that somehow catches this terrible momentum. I don't know what causes it, but that momentum it edges into harder and meaner stuff as it escalates, and it's this enormously painful and uncomfortable thing to witness, And looking back, I can remember instances of this in my life where I watch something like this happened to somebody else, and in retrospect, like I wish I'd found a way to step in

in the moment and stop it. But it's so much easier to to to feel that kind of policing authority in retrospect in the moment, to step in like that into clear teasing. To have gone too far requires you to take this major risk. It feels like you're violating a taboo, you're making it weird, you know, you know about making it weird, right, um, And in the moment you're never really sure if you've like misread some kind

of unspoken set of cues. Maybe everything is actually okay, and you're the one who's making people feel bad by getting serious from out of nowhere. It can be a really difficult and complicated uh dance to to navigate. All right, on that note, we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna we're gonna really get into the question of teasing and what purpose it truly serves.

Thank thank thank Alright, we're back. So one of the big names that comes up in teasing resear is that of psychiatry and psychology researcher Dr Keltner, who has written on this, researched on this, and one of the big pieces that has often circulated is a two thousand and eight New York Times piece titled in Defensive Teasing. Uh. And he also directs the Berkeley Social Interaction Lab. So

this is like right in his uh, his area of focus. Yeah, Keltner makes an interesting point, which is that a lot of our social conventions in the modern age, I think are centered around trying to make social interactions more safe, which in a way is a good thing. Right. We we all know how destructive and terrible bullying can be. We've all seen the kind of teasing in a relationship. And you know, somebody's somebody's got a new boyfriend and he's teasing her, but he's like going a little hard.

It doesn't quite seem so sweet. And when you think about stuff like that, it can be very easy to start to to start to view teasing is this really negative thing. It's this this cruel, malicious force that permeates our culture and and make you want to do things to eliminate it. Right, Well, how can we get people to not act like this? But I feel like teasing is a situation where you really don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Well you don't, but

you you want to protect the baby. That's the thing I mean. Throughout this episode, I kept coming I keep coming back to um, my own son, and I just want to protect him so much from these things. At the same time, I realized I can't protect him there from everything. I can't just chattow him through school and you know, feed him excellent, you know, comebacks. Uh, anytime anybody is is trying to tease him, he's going to be teased. It's it's inevitable, and he it's probably inevitable

to that to engage in teasing. Um. But at the same time, it is hard for me to just really get behind everything Kelton is saying about just the importance of teasing, like, I still my impulse to protect is too strong. Well, I mean, I think the point he would be making is that the good kind of teasing is not actually hurtful, it's not actually something that needs to be protected. And he is not advocating that that

bullying should be permitted. It's very clear about that. But but but he does make this strong, strong case that that teasing is an essential part of our social interactions, and in fact, he points out that the teasing is

pervasive in the animal world. Right now, we generally think of teasing as you know, as a verbal phenomenon, right and I guess you do have to think of of human teasing as as a lot of things with humans happens to be you think of it as a linguistic and cultural complication of an impulse that may also be found within uh language less animals, and so, for instance, Keltner says, quote, the centrality of teasing in our social evolution is suggests by just how pervasive teasing is in

the animal world. Younger monkeys pull the tales of older monkeys. African hunting dogs jump all over one another, much like pad slapping joking football players moments before kickoff. In every corner of the world, human adults play peekaboo games to stir a sulking child. Children as early as age one mimic nearby adults and teenagers prod one another to gauge romantic interest. In rejecting teasing, we may be losing something vital and necessary to our identity as the most playful

of species. I mean, I think I'm pretty on board with his message there. It's the the difficulty comes in our uncertainty about recognizing the line between benign teasing and hurtful teasing. And and I think it's because there's that ambiguity, because there's always the danger that you you're not necessarily going to be able to recognize immediately the difference between

one or the other. It's exactly the same problem. I was mentioning a minute go where you like, I think back on a time you saw somebody getting teased and it went over the line, but you didn't stop it. Um, it's because of that ambiguity, like you didn't know if you should step in or not. And that ambiguity makes us uncomfortable because we know teasing this over the line is wrong, but you can't always see the line in

the moment. It would be interesting to hear from from educators out there who are listening to the show on this, because it does make one think that the message should not be hey, kids, don't tease one another. It should maybe be more. Here areas where it is not cool to tease, you know, like it's not cool to tease someone about their physical appearance or the characters or stereotypes, etcetera. Uh, but various behavioral teasing. I don't know how, I mean,

how do you end up teaching such nuance? Maybe you to a certain extent, you can't. It has to generate via the social interactions. Here's something I would say, Um, well, with a with a big exception for we can talk about the jester in a second, with a big exception for the jester. Maybe one thing is that you shouldn't tease somebody unless you like them and they know you like them. That's true, because otherwise, if the if the existing social dynamic is is is anything different, than you

are perhaps not engaging in pure teasing. No, I mean, then it becomes bullying. When you tease somebody you don't even like her respect, obviously you're you're going to be tempted to edge over into some form of cruelty. Now, speaking of cruelty, we have to think again of of kings, and of course the jester. Keltner points out then that in the tradition of the court jester, you could say teasing is quote a playful, provocative mode of commentary. Yeah,

I think that's right. I mean, as Touchstone said in Shakespeare's as you Like It quote, the fool don't think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. You know, that's hundreds of years before all the modern research on illusory confidence and dunning Krueger

and all that. I think this reveals that a key social good of even harder edged thing is that when it's properly applied, it can be kind of a leveling tool like it knocks down the wickerman of big egos and and pops the balloons of unearned self confidence that we see so often in our highest levels of leadership. But of course, just as often it's applied the other way, and in a very bad, destructive way. It gets applied from the top down by the inflated ego against the

less empowered. I guess as sort of like a hierarchy enforcement mechanism, but the bottom up form, the jester driven form. I think that's a that leveling instinct is a useful social good and a form of freedom. Teasing is an arena that allows us to experiment with language, with personality and relationships. It's sort of an open ended game that

we can use to manage relationships and learn about each other. Now, Culton A. Keltner also turns to the work of linguistic anthropologist Penelope Brown and cognitive anthropologist Stephen Levinson, who I believe we've we've touched on both of their work before on the podcast, but their work that he's referencing here

is more specifically aligned with the study of politeness. But of interest here is the their focus on two forms of communication like basically breaking down communication into two forms that we're talking mostly about linguistic communication here, but on the on record communication and off record communication. Okay, so tell me the difference. Okay, So on record communication is just literal direct speech. You take it literally. It's meant

meant to be taken literally. It's clear, and it's direct. This is the kind of speech you would want from your doctor or your lawyer or whatever. Right if you if someone were to come up to you on the street and uh and say, hey, you've got something on your face? Um, like that's clear, Like, hey, I think there's some food on your face. You need you might want to get that off. Like they're they're not playing around. They're just letting you know. It might be socially awkward,

but they are being direct in their communication. They're they're not they're not joking, they're not being vague about it. Off the record is veiled meeting metaphor alternative meaning. So this if someone were to come up on your street and be like, hey, um, you got a little something

right there. Hey, if you you know, if they were kind of kind of beat around the bush a little bit, you know, you might want to take a look in a mirror bro right, Yeah, that kind of thing where it can it's off the record, and it can be in a way that is meant to, uh to to make the the the message softer, or it can go the reverse, right, it can, it can make it harder. You could be straight up mocking somebody on the street for the little bit of lunch they still have, you know,

caught in their beard. Yeah, it seems the key to the off record communication is is some form of ambiguity. And one reason is that off record communication is sometimes risky, right, people want deniability if their message is not well received. Off record communication is the kind of communication where you can say I was just kidding. On record communication, you cannot plausibly say I was just kidding. And you've all been there when somebody delivered on record communication and then

tried to I was just kidding afterwards. It doesn't work. There's no there's generally no room for for retreat except to like physically retreat. So the point here is that in modern human interactions, you don't always want to be direct. On record communication doesn't always work for the same reasons that it's not practical to always be truthful. White lies

are sometimes required or lies of emission. Uh, And so it's it's sometimes necessary to communicate via off record communication to say something and signal some other meaning, as annoying as it can be at times. Obviously, we can all think too situations where someone is not direct with us and we wish they were direct. Oh yeah, I mean pretty much everything we're talking about today that has a possible good social good, you know, useful social role also

can be used for evil. I mean, every shifty, dishonest guy you know uses a lot of off record communication and always wants to be able to kind of weazle around about what he said or what he meant. And so Kellner argues that teasing is quote, just such an act of off record communication. Provocative commentary is shrouded in linguistic acts called off record markers that suggests that commentary

should not be taken literally. So there's some sort of a uh, there's some sort of a wink there, right, But I don't think this should cause us to sort, uh, communication into like on record which is important, and off record,

which is not important. Yeah, I mean, to your point, it may be very important, It just might be socially delicate or you don't want to overstep the boundaries of your established relationship with someone, and it may be essential to to to to to to provide that wink to let them know via you know, some sort of hand signal or some alteration of your voice, or even the use of rhyme or the mimicking of of of some other individual. It could be key to letting them know.

I'm I'm using off record communication here, even even though what I'm about to tell you is important. Well, yeah, it on record communication and off record communication. I would say, our respectively analogous to work and play, and play is very important. Play is where we learn how to work. Ultimately, it allows us to send messages in a in a masked way, or at least a kind of like a lubricated way. Socially. Uh. This this may be a terrible example,

but but one that I have observed before. If you've ever seen, say, an individual come out of a public restroom and uh, and they say, who, do not go in there. We'll give you some sort of like joking warning, that's a good one. Maybe it tends it are it Definitely, I would say, definitely works better than if they were to look you square in the eyes and say do not go in there. Though that's sort of like five minutes, you know, like then that's self deprecating. Yeah, but it's

also it's like awkward for both parties. But if but if there's a joke there, like then it's kind of like I'm kind of making fun of myself and I'm also kind of making fun of fun of you. But I'm also providing definite information that you should be aware of regarding the the the aromatic state of this bathroom you're about to enter. Well to to incorporate teasing, I can see how in that situation, teasing if somebody else could actually be used to diffuse tension and make them

feel less bad. So like say you have to go into a bathroom after somebody else and it smells bad, and the other person knows that they've been in there, and you know they're probably feeling embarrassed. You might be able to say something that's like a tease of them that indicates that they shouldn't actually be you know, you can both laugh about it, which actually feels better than just leaving it, leaving it unsaid on the person feeling

awkward and embarrassed. Though I'm not necessarily advocating making fun of people's body smells. You've got to judge the situation case by case, Keltner says. Quote, in teasing, we become actors, taking on playful identities to manage the inevitable conflicts of living in social group. Which is as kind of crude as this example we just laid out, is it? I mean it that is an example of what we're talking

about here. I mean that is the inevitable conflict of living in social groups, of going to restaurants and sharing restrooms. And they also may allow us Kelton argues, to engage in the sort of social contest that may prove physical and deadly in other species. And indeed, we see plenty of non human species that have evolved drama dramatized status contests that don't involve combat, you know, uh, some sort of like feathery display or or even a display of

something that might otherwise be used for for combat. But some mean, some means of of engaging in social contest that doesn't actually require two individuals to to fight until one backs off. Yeah, I don't know if this is the kind I would call teasing. I guess there might be elements you call this gets up against when exactly I would actually use the word again, But it's clearly yeah, it's clearly part of human culture that we use words and like insults and humor and stuff like that to

manage hierarchy navigation. You're trying to take down the person above you, and you can do it with a witty comment. But stuff like that isn't always isn't always in this playful, sweet realm of teasing, I mean that kind of stuff can actually be pretty biting, right, But but the argument here is that even in playful teasing, there is this

potential for uh, for establishment of a pecking order. And that's just another way that teasing and requires us to walk a fine line, right uh, enhancing social connection while also establishing a pecking order. Like it it's sounds it's one of those things that when you when you boil it down, um, like imagine like setting out to do that consciously, Like, all right, I've got a I need

to walk into the office today. I needed I need to tear everybody down just the appropriate amount so that we all feel a little closer, but also that it's so that everybody thinks that I'm superior or that I of the appropriate place in the social dynamics of the office you're describing management strategy. Probably probably so, No, no, no,

that's not fair. But yeah, I mean I unfortunately, I think there are some people who are that deliberate and that calculating about the kind of stuff they say in a workplace. They're not just talking to you about whatever they're thinking about. They're making a comment to you in front of an audience based on how it will benefit them.

Now we mentioned frat frat brothers earlier, Keltner observed that among frat brothers, in one study, teasing nicknames seemed to be quote more morality plays based on misdeeds that they were encouraged to move beyond, and among teens, teasing as a vital part of a flirtation, a way of testing out others and looking for genuine signs of interest. Yeah, And as I mentioned earlier, I mean, I feel like

this can easily go two ways. There is a very sweet kind of teasing that takes that takes place in courtship, and then there's definitely a gross form of it that's some kind of so shull leverage trick, right, and then there's also something problematic too, about like, if you established this rule that like, oh, they're teasing you because they like you like, then that that and that may be the case, I mean that these but if you but then he goes too far. If you established it, then

is this excuse for for problematic teasing? Right, like, oh, that's just boys being boys or girls being girls? Then you know, is it Are we using that to cover up something that should be um policed in some fashion? Well? Often we are. This is yet another case where it would be great if we could always clearly see what the line is and people's discomfort comes in because sometimes

it's not clear where the line is. Now. On the subject of of teasing among committed partners, uh, he points out that there is a language to it, you know, they're all these little in jokes, and he points to two studies that have shown that married couples with a rich vocabulary of you know, various teasing nicknames and ends of remulate insults, they tend to be happier and more satisfied.

And that's the sweet kind. Yeah. And he also adds that it may help diffuse arguments over really explosive issues and that the terminology of the teasing as well as often drawn from the same metaphors we use for for love. They have to do, for instance, with with food or small animals, like referring to somebody as like a dumpling or a muffin or something like that, or a or

a bunny. Yes, though apparently it does depend on the language. Here, I remember speaking with an individual of Thaie descent and about how the use of pig or piggy or you know, it's thie equivalent was a term of endearment, especially for young children, whereas in English that the term maybe has a has a bit more like spite to it, if you're gonna call someone a pick or a piggy. So a term of endeuarment in one language or culture is

not necessarily going to translate equally into another language. Oh but I can actually see, like even in English, a great novel where you establish it character's relationship, what we're like a wife calls her husband little piggy or something that seems that that's good, that's good character right there. Yeah. Now, there's a ton of material out there on teasing, and we can't possibly touch on all of it here today.

After all, it does seem to be a major aspect of human social dynamics, and the legacy of childhood teasing seems to be quite long. A lot of studies look at childhood teasing and and the ramifications of it for adults. Yeah, a lot of what I saw was just study after study looking at whether child whether children perceived teasing as harmful or not, and generally they did. Now, one of one of the problems here is that it does come

down to that perception. How is the instance of teasing perceived and and and here we see this this this this case where an instance of teasing might well be perceived by one party as being played well and another party as being harmful. I mean, going back to our initial example. You know, in in like group social dynamics, where someone goes over the line, I mean most of the most of the cases, and the person is not thinking I'm going over the line, I'm going for it,

I'm gonna go for the hurt point. Here, well, sometimes they are, I mean, there there are clearly different categories here. There's like, very often teasing is going to be perceived as good natured by the person doing the teasing and as mean and hurtful by the person receiving the teasing, but also there there are two different versions of what's going on in the perpetrator's mind. You've definitely seen cases where somebody who genuinely meant no harm accidentally hurts somebody's

feelings with teasing. And then you see cases where people try to cover their butts afterwards, like clearly they let some you know, hurtful inclinations reveal itself too much. They were being mean, but then afterwards they can be they can retreat. It's off record communication, so they can be like, oh, I was just kidding. I didn't mean any harm, don't

you know, don't get upset. I'm I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but they kind of did, right, Yeah, I was looking at a paper here, two thousand paper titled I Was Only kidding Victims and Perpetrators Perceptions of Teasing by Robin M. Kowowski, and he points out that via seventy two person study, I found that perspectives might

reflect the views of perpetrators and victims. The teaser remembers it more as fun and focused on behavior, and the person being teased remembers it more as hurtful and potentially focusing on their appearance. Yeah, that's another thing. So one area in which teasing I think is just never acceptable. I mean, you just never want to go there is teasing about innate characteristics, not not like about what somebody just did, but about what they look like about their body,

about fundamental personality issues. It comes back to like the educative aspect of teasing, like you can you if it's if it's if there's something educative about it, it's like you should be doing this differently, where you should have done this differently. But I mean, you know, people for the for the vast most part, cannot do anything about

their their physical appearance, you know. But but I've I'm sure you've seen this where people tease somebody and it edges into teasing about innate characteristics, and when they get called out, they try to retreat to to like pretending they were just reacting to behavior or something. No, no, no, no, I didn't mean that. I meant this other thing. Yeah, Or they're kind of like, oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were just being mean, and so I was going

to be mean too. I didn't realize that we were being playful or that we were critiquing things they had choices about. Now, this this leads me to a question that I've I've had in my mind for a little while here, and that is, do certain people invite more playful and potentially hurtful teasing than others? And if so, what are the factors? So I've observed this in social situations in the past, I'm sure a number of our listeners have as well. In social dynamics, some individuals seem

to attract more teasing attention than others. And why is that? I think based on some of what we've discussed here so far, we could we could really point to various causes apparent social status, attractiveness and desirability, but also difference outside or status, really any area that would seem to invite, invite off the record linguistic attention right. Well, because teasing has so many different uses and meanings, there are a

lot of different ways that it can be attracted. I mean, one thing that you can see is that obviously in hurtful teasing, you know, the kind of cruel the thing I wouldn't usually call teasing cruel, mean spirited bullying. I think the people who attract that are people who look like easy targets, people who are lower status in the community where they're being teased, people who have less power to respond. I mean, bullies pick on people they perceived

to have a weakness. Now, when it comes to the jester type of teasing, I think obviously they're the people who are going to be attracting it, are going to be prominent, high status people. And high status people also tend to invite the different kind of teasing that's not even really teasing. But Keltner talked about it in this article when he talked about how frat brothers give each

other nicknames. There's a kind of teasing as praise that frat pledges show towards the senior brothers of the fraternity. Uh So it's structured like teasing, but it's really more of a veiled compliment. Do you know what I'm talking about. I'm sure you've seen this before, where it like people will be obsequious by pretending to rib somebody above them, but in a way that's not actually for anything bad

they did, but really is more for something good about them. Yeah. Yeah, you do see examples of this, uh from time to time, almost kind of getting into the idea of like hot shaming somebody, right, like making fun of them for being attractive, or making fun of them for being successful or something of that in that regard. I mean, obviously, in the fraternity context, a lot of this is going to be like pretending to rib an older frat brother for his

you know, drinking ability, or his sexual prowess or something. Uh, it's not really in that context perceived as an insult, but they structure it like one. It's a strange phenomenon. But but to come back to other people who seem to invite I think one thing that is common to most forms of more barbed teasing is that it's invited by people who do not appear to have a very well developed sense of humor, or people who appear to

take themselves very seriously. I'm sure you've observed this, right, Robert. Yes, I've definitely seen this implay, you know, in various work environments over over the years, where the person who takes themselves very seriously just it almost requires you to to take them down to pay, not if they can't laugh

at themselves. I mean, and this is something that's not necessarily going to take place like face to face obviously, Like like if you have a say, you have a boss that is just really self involved, you you cannot help but make fun of them with a coworker. You know, regardless of if you if you ever do anything or say anything that you know that that that individual is ever gonna hear, you still have to at least joke

about them, uh with your other coworkers. Right, And as Keltner points out, the dynamics of teasing tend to change dramatically around eleven or twelve, around that that kind of age, which is about the age that he says kids most often learn to hold contradictory ideas about the world in their head at the same time these you know, that's the the idea of negative capability, the thing that allows the ironic stance, and this allows them to see subtleties

of teasing and participate in it, especially on the receiving end, in a more graceful way, without interpreting all of it as bullying and bad. You know. That's one big difference is that when you're an adult, it becomes you learn how to take a joke usually, you know, like you learn how to be the butt of a of a good natured piece of criticism. I mean, as long as it's not like really cruel, uh, to be the butt of a good natured piece of criticism or or teasing

and to not get too upset about it. But kids don't have this ability. They are not good at this at all. Kids take themselves very seriously. All right. Well, on that note, we're going to take one more break, and when we come back, we will discuss teasing U in bonding. Thank thank you, thank you. Alright, we're back. So one of the funny things I discovered in this episode is there's this entire academic journal called Discourse Studies, all all kinds of research about the ways people communicate.

And they have this amazing way of like mapping out conversations in a way that includes all this information about tone and about gestures and laughter and and how different kinds of laughter sounded. It looks like computer code. It's like conversations translated into cobal. You should look this up

if you get a chance. It's it's pretty interesting. Um. But I was just looking at one study from Discourse Studies in that was published this year in ten called getting to Know You Teasing as an Invitation to intimacy in initial interactions by Michael Hall and Danielle pill at Shore and so that they write about how before the study, teasing was often assumed to take place mostly or exclusively between people who have previously who have previous relationships, who

have some degree of intimacy. But this article examined conversations between unfamiliar people who were becoming acquainted, and I thought

this was interesting. They found that teasing does play a role, uh, and the role it seems to play in this kind of conversation and the getting to know you conversation is a sort of experiment, is testing the new acquaint sense, is willingness to become more intimate, because I definitely know this feeling like you're at a party or whatever, you know, any place you've got to meet new people, and you're talking to somebody new for the first time, and for

a while in that first conversation, you don't know if this conversation will sort of escalate into a relationship and a point of familiarity where you might start to think of this person as a friend, or if you're just exchanging pleasantries until you can move on, right, Yeah, So you never know. Some sometimes you think it's gonna go one way, and it goes to the other. And this study found that teasing plays an important role in this and getting to know people as a bid for increased intimacy.

So the researchers taped and studied thirty initial interactions twenty four of which twenty four out of the thirty featured one or more sequence of teasing. And the teases were produced by and directed at both male and female speakers of varying ages. And this is fascinating. The researchers discovered that there was a clear pattern to the teasing exchange in the initial conversations. So first, something teasable would happen.

There's a triggering action by the tease target that affords the tease, and then second there's the tease at a quote, a teasing action directed at the tease target. And then third there's affiliation, a mutual ratification of the non seriousness of the tease and the author's right quote. Given, teasing is one way of criticizing another, it constitutes a potential

breach of tact or interactional propriety in initial interactions. However, participants can construe this potential impropriety as an invitation to intimacy, as it involves the proposal of a shared ironic stance that may be either accepted or declined by the target of the tease. So teasing in initial interactions, teasing while first getting to know somebody can essentially be an off record invitation to escalate the interaction and open up possibilities

of friendship. It's a sort of ambiguous, off record way of saying, will you play with me? And of course, reading through these, you know these like cobal conversations, you see that a lot of the signaling both ways here is relegated to nonverbal signals. There's intonation, uh, facial expressions, laughter, And you know, one thing I was thinking about it is how sometimes a teasing interaction doesn't even necessarily involve

words like think about this situation. Somebody says something teasable, and all you really need to do for a subtle tease is to respond with a certain facial expression or type of laughter, And the teased person has the option of either joining you and and laughing along with you, or rejecting the bid to join you in the river of irony and staying on dry land, At which point you realize like, oh, Okay, this conversation or this relationship is not going to a friendly place, or that this

is not the this is not the safe point for teasing, you know, I mean it, it's very possible. I think we can all think two situations like this where you're kind of doing this playful teasing and then you realize, oh, maybe this individual is very serious about this particular aspect of their personality or the world. Like they do not They're they're not game for say, uh, you know, political based humor or teasing, but they may be open in

other areas. And that is also ultimately part of the social dynamic, right, figuring out like what is the shape of my relationship with this person and what is this shape of this relationship going to be? What are the avenues for bonding and teasing that can take place. Yeah, I was reading another article about teasing as bonding and it talked about how one of the main features of teasing is the creation of distinct alliances between participants in

a conversation. Of course, you know, we we see this happen all the time. Teasing is going on, and it forms factions in a conversation. People can either join in with the teasing and now they're on a team together, or they can like resist, or they can you know, it's often a form of like joining people together against an isolated recipient. And this can take very cruel forms. Of course, this is where it can very easily turn into bullying, where in group members strengthened bonds by teasing

somebody from the outgroup or somebody new. But I've also noticed that this form of teasing as alliance formation, can be really positive. It can have really really sweet forms. Here's one very specific benign way I've seen happen a lot in my life. It's when there's someone who's uncomfortable

or unfamiliar in a social group. Say a person's over at your house for the first time and they've never been there before that you know that they're not one of this this social in group yet, and a member of that social in group tries to make the new person feel comfortable and welcome by inviting them to participate in teasing of another member of the in group. Like.

A very common version of this is I see, um a wife trying to make somebody feel welcome in her home by inviting that guest to join in with her in teasing her husband. Okay, yeah, I mean I can think of examples where my wife has done this, where essentially what she's saying is like, this is my husband, Uh, here's this nerdy thing he likes. It's okay to tease him about it because it is part of our dynamic and you can share to a certain extent in this

dynamic as well. Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's an inviting thing, and it it also tells that person it's safe here. It says you're not going to get your head cut off for mocking the king, right right, Yeah, beheading always a sign that that that that a dinner party is going terribly wrong. It's it's a demonstration that there is no Jeoffrey in this house, right. But it's

also a form of social bonding and alliance formation. It allows the person to feel like they are you know, the that the crucial that the bull's eye of the in group right now. Though then again, because because teasing has all this inbuilt uh ambiguity and risk there, there's always the risk of seeing something like that edge into actual mean spiritedness in a couple. I hadn't really thought about this before, but I was thinking of my my

own house. A lot of teasing, linguistic teasing, mind you, is aimed at our cat, and our son engaged in this as well. You know, we we treat the cat obviously like a like a queen. You know, she has even as a pedestal that she lays upon, and you know she hasn't made in the shade and OK, yeah, we we love the cat, but at the same time we have all sorts of ridiculous names for the cat. We're always going, oh, what is the cat doing? Now?

We're essentially teasing the cat and it is a very safe zone for linguistic teasing, you know, because the cat doesn't care. The cat doesn't know what we're saying. Well, you know why cats are great to tease, it's because they take themselves very seriously. They do that, They are very to take themselves very seriously, whereas there is there's certainly more of a an air of the jesture to the dog. Though. We make fun of our dog too,

and he deserves it because he's very funny. But it does make me wonder to what extent pets then, you know, they they are enabling this avenue of bonding, uh that

that that that involves teasing. I think in this world where we're trying to be sensitive and socially conscious and not and not hurt people and necessarily but at the same time, but where we also recognize the absolutely necessary value of positive teasing, if we need like a theory, we need like a theory of teasing to guide our teasing so so that we we always understand where it's going and we don't accidentally pilot it into the rocks

of of of bullying. I agree. I wonder if we need like posters, you know, sort of like a military propaganda posters that are instructing us about teasing, Like what is good teasing, what is bad teasing, what is teasing accomplished? What should we tolerate, what should we not tolerate? Yeah, I don't know exactly what the best rules of the road are. I mean, I know some things you should not do, but it would be good to have positive rules as well. How do you know you're on the

right track when you're teasing somebody? Yeah, for the most part, we're all just winging it, aren't we. Well, I mean you're trying to you're trying to read read their reaction, like if it's good natured teasing, if it's between people who are friends or in a relationship, they're teasing each other that you know, you're reading their their facial expressions and all that, and you can generally tell if things are going well, but it's harder to tell for some

people than others. And it's harder to tell in some situations than others. Alright, we're gonna go and close it out there. But obviously this is a topic that everyone

is going to have some contribution for. I mean, everyone has experience with teasing or being teased, both you know, as children, as adolescents, as adults and uh, and we would love to hear how you take some of the ideas that we've discussed here to uh to dissect teasing that has occurred in your life, you see occurring around you. We'll tell you how to reach out to us here in a minute. But first of all, stuff to blow your mind. Dot Com that of course, is the mothership.

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