Of Humans and Squids, with Martin Wallen

The book is out in both digital and physical forms, and I highly recommend it as it dives into not only science and natural history, but also mythology, folklore, and literature. So without further ado, let's jump right into the interview and discuss all of this with Martin. Hi, Martin, welcome

to the show. Thank you very much. Your book, Squid, part of Reactions Animal series, came out last year, and uh, as I started reading in our ease, this is exactly the sort of book that we'd love to discuss on the show. So if I make cobble together a couple of questions here, where did your interest in cephalopods come from? And how did this book come together? Right? Well, that's

that's a nice question to be good with. UM. I had written UM two other books about animals UM, one about foxes, which is also part of the Reaction Animal series. UM and I've written a book about dogs UM. The book but dogs I actually started before the fox book, and that really arose out of UM relationships I've had

with horses UM. Oddly enough, but because I've been around horses for a long time, I've increasingly begun to wonder how to engage with UM or how to write about an animal UH with whom we half engaged in a completely non verbal way UM and most effectively UH through touch UM and other forms of sensory perception. UM. And there's a mode of being on horses as known as

being quiet UM. But I could never quite work out our way to deal with that, So UM and I began thinking more pointedly about my relationship with dogs and how we interact with dogs generally, which led me to think about relationships with non domestic animals like foxes and

so on. UM and then UM I began to think, well, what about preachers that are even more UM alien to us creatures We probably don't interact with UM on a daily level UH the way we interact with UM domestic animals or even the wild animals that might be passing through our neighborhood UM, and I really began to question what animal might I um explore just in a perhaps a theoretical way uh that would enable me to at tackle questions like, umbly, what is it like to be

in a world with unknown, unknowable creatures not only once we have to remain quiet about, but once we can barely even begin speaking about. Um. And so I started exploring squids uh and found them enticingly bizarre uh and enticingly weird um and really just took up a series of questions about about those strange, odd animals and how um human cultures have over the millennia tried to describe them, or account for them, or express their anxieties about them

and so on. And that's where I is up. Yeah. I really love the way that you you tackle the subject of of the of the animal of the squid in this book, because you you know, you approach it from the you know, the philosophical and the naturalist viewpoint. You get into the scientific research both um current and UM and and of the previous century and so forth, and then then you get into this idea of of of literary treatment mythological treatment, etcetera. So it's a it's

I love the net that you cast in this. But you begin with Aristotle in the fourth century BC philosopher's attempts to understand and chronicle cephalopods. What did Aristotle get right and what did he get wrong? Well, first of all, I by push someone an ancient writer like Aristotle is that he's really working within his cultural context. So in his view and in the view of let's say, the

classical Greek world, he got pertually everything right. Um. What we would see that he got uh wrong in that regard is when he describes the semple plods um as bluntless, because of course they're not bloodless. They simply have a different color of blood than um most of those terrestrial

animals um. And um. What he makes uh references to certain qualities, like the fact that they lay imperfect eggs um, because we think, well, those are squid eggs, and they're appropriate to squids, and they're like squids, uh, And that they're aquious. But by imperfectly means um that's the term he uses it in reference to other animals as well.

By perfect he really means that the eggs um don't remain uh, don't stay keep the same appearance um that they have when they're first laid by the mother squid. O the way, let's say chicken eggs are UM. Lizard eggs basically are laid as hard shelled eggs, and say that way until they're hatched. UM. So that seems like, um, something incorrect in our thinking, UM, but it's actually appropriate

to Aristotle's um uh conceptual view of the world. Well, we generally UM say that Aristotle got right, of course, UH his physical descriptions of of really all the animals and everything he he writes about UH. And that's that's that's really what UM puts him at the very foundation of modern um natural philosophy and ultimately modern science, because he does pay a lot of attention and great care

to the physical appearance of squids UH. And and that enables him to make certain rudimentary uh classifications among the different kinds of squids. UM. It's also important to bear in mind, and maybe this is on the wrong side, but UM, it's more of a qualification that Aristyle, being a Greek and a Greek of the fourth century BC, UM, really stayed pretty close to shore Um. He most of his observations of squids were done on the Isle of Lesbos from the Gulf of kolani Um, rather than out

in the deeper waters. So that means that the squids he saw were the smaller inshore varieties of squids, and possibly some of the some of the larger varieties which he probably would have seen on fisherman's boats or as uh dead specimens that floated ashore um, and those would have been less common to him. Uh. And so it doesn't offer that many accounts of us those squids, and nor does he really dealt into the differences between inshore

and the offshore squids. So uh no, that's that's what I would say, is let's say right and wrong gish about um accounts. Now you mentioned the fisherman, of course, and that leads to the question like, what was the culinary view of of of squids and their relatives during Aristotle's time? Well, that's that's intriguing view. I think almost um, everyone um who doesn't vegan has had calamari on our

different kinds of squid. Um. Squids are nice to eat, um, and they were nice to eat then, except that the ancient Greeks had a much more emp different view of of what we call seafood um than than we do. And that in biblemence comes from uh general general revolver towards the sea, which was commonly referred to as being simply perfidious because it was a dangerous place. Uh and uh you could think you, being a human, could think

um down below the surface and never be seen again. Uh. And fish, including squids um, were known to eat humans. And so the idea of eating an animal that eats humans uh just tends to stir the stomach, but also tends to um rub against the philosophical if you have madam madam psychosis, which would suggest that if um squids eating humans, then we are essentially eating humans that have been transformed and so squids by their digestive tract uh.

And that's something that that seemed to be immoral um and and um culpable, so that people who did eat squids, and they're numerous references to the um ethicals. Do people who did squizz worse somehow morally suspect uh and somehow Um, we're either indulgent or not to be frosted um. Part of that sew I think it's gets um um exacerbated later on by the high morality of someone like Plato who really lives sort of titanical or had a puritanical

view of the world. Uh, and so he would keep really condemned U. Some of the UM writers who focused on their their diets and um what they enjoyed eating like squids. So all it was it was people people ate them almost certainly, but um they were unhappy about eating them, at least in the Greek world. Uh. And notably, there are very few um visual despictions of squids or even marine life UM, apart from the sat dolphins until

pretty late in the Greek world. Now, why is there so much terminological confusion concerning squids, octopuses, and cuttlefish and classical literature? This is something you discussed in the book right right. Well again that that largely comes from Aristotle UM and who Aristotles, when he was describing the cephalopods UM really grouped them all under the general general heading of malakoi was basically means um um soft bodied creatures or as I like to think, squishy, squishy creatures UM.

And he didn't go into that much detail, and distinguishing, as I said earlier, the inshore from the offshore UMU squids. He distinguishes UH squids from cuttlefishes and octopuses, but even there he refers to UH polly plods UH. And then he'll refer to the cuttle fishes, sometimes using the term cps um UH and other times as polypus um and other times as tooth is or other times still as

truth oaths UH. And as as later commentators and translators UM are obviously confused about exactly which creature he was referring to. UM. The confusion has us to do with um occupuses, that does with the two decapods cuttle fishes and squids UM and there um Aerosold say that the he does, he does allow for a certain distinction, and

that is based on the quality of their flesh. So cuttle fishes, which swim closer to shore, he says, UM absorb more of the heart um surface hard substances of the earth, so they have um a bone running through their um bodies with the cuttle bone UM, and that he referred to as the um cbi or the phobia bone UM. And then the the squids He then just referred to the tooth and the tooth tooth, And it's hard really to know again what he meant by the tooth is which has the ending i s and tooth oath,

which has the ending o s UM. But it does seem that that that's largely my deduction as based on UM lexicons and UH simply the fact that gave more attention to the truth is UM that that one truths refers to the instore crystals refers to the up floor UM.

So there's really a confusion of what he The confusion is partly due to his his vagueness UM and his accounts, and to the later confusion of UH of commentators and translators, largely again because those commentators would themselves not have ventured out into the sea to look at squids or for

that matter, of cold fishes or occupuses. But we're probably writing and unlocked the libraries UH, copying or summarizing um Aristotle's texts, so that that confusion does become pretty much um um a quality of squid or even m squishy um uh. Natural history for the next many years, let's say, the next thousand or so years, and as as you later discussed in the book, and we still have what what would encounter cases where something we're calling a squid

is actually not technically a squid. Right you mean the um wasn't there? Uh when when you start talking about the vampire squid. Oh yes, yes, yes, of course, um right, technically that it is not a squid. That's it's actually more of an octopod because it doesn't um, it doesn't really have the same layout of of arms and testicles that squids do. Uh so yeah, so you're right us that's one of the strangest um creatures um and also a creature was one of the most delightful names of

the vampire squid from hell um. Uh yes, but almost certainly as are let's at least possibly it's not actually as squid. Yeah. I love the the illustrations we see of this particular cephalobod in the book. One of them I was really taken with. I hadn't seen there seen this particular illustration before, but the artist almost it seemed like they were trying to make the squid appear like a skull. Am I alone in uh interpreting it this way? Yes,

I think that's that's sort of appropriate. That's that's I believe carl Um illustration Um, oh no, I have right here. It does look like skull um because it's it's black, and it's it's in this particular stration, it's upside down, so it has the sort of duelish mouth that seems to be in sort of a hideous grin underneath two eyes.

And then there's a no socket. Right. That's that's that's sort of a fastful rendition of vampires than now, going back to the two ancient writings here Plenty of the Elder. Of course, his accounts inevitably come up when anytime we're discussing Western understandings of the natural world. And I was really taken by a bit from Plenty that you discussed in the book. Can you explain the proposed connection between

the quote lavish nature of liquid and large marine animal sizes? Well, plenty um very much an air of Aristotle was describing the world as as he thought, uh and describing the world very much as a Roman. So when he looked out onto bodies of water, lakes, rivers, and the sea, um, he saw that there there there was a large form that was basically being fed continually by rainfall and other forms of precipitation. So that's that's the nourishment that he

sees taking place UM. And then he draws a basic analogy between h two different realms of the world. On the one hand, there's the terrestrial realm populated by humans and land animals, and then the um aqueous world uh. And she says every form of of of um uh life that exists on land must also have its counterpart in the sea uh and the cious realm. But because the ocurious realm is more obviously nourished by precipitation uh and is by precipitation, which is like uh, the acicus

realm than land is like precipitation UH. That means then that the animals are nourished themselves more um than land animals are, so they grow to greater uh scientists, even monster sizes. And because water is more fluid, they also are liable to take uh more varied shapes uh and even diverged into a completely different animals that do not exist on land. UM. So that analogy is central to

plenty kind of thinking about natural history UM. And it's also a clear indication that he's thinking specilatively, since of course you didn't have a bathosphere uh and couldn't see the below the surface of the dark sea. Um. But it's also on the basis of that that um uh that later accounts of sea monsters of claimed to have

some basis in um natural history. In fact, I also love a bit that you from Plenty that you share, because this is one of those quotes that I guess when you're when you're looking at things Plenty shared, I guess sometimes you know second or third hand about things in the world. Sometimes they may feel a bit detached

from the actual reality. But this is one of those quotes that that I feel like actually after just speaks across the ages and and matches up with like my experience of seeing octopi in the wilder or any cephalopods in an aquarium. And that is quote that squids are virtually incomprehensible to those who have never seen one because they continually shift their appearance by moving their arms and changing colors. UM. I don't know about you, but I thought that really had a real ring of solid truth

to it. Absolutely uh. And as I mentioned at the very beginning, would my interests uh and squids Uh, it's just that incomprehensibility, how can there be such an animal? The simple the basic word supple pod the official term for those whole group of animals, really means the head of feet, right suffalo and then pod for feet. That makes no sense, and that name encapsulates the oddness and strangeness,

the alien quality of of these these creatures. Um. And they they really do challenge our basic sense So what an animal should be like m or act like? Because indeed they do change shape continually, they change colors continually, UM. And they in many ways they should not exist. Uh. There even questions that at various times in history about

whether they should be categorized as animals or instead as plants. Uh. And so they've always been a real mystery uh and a real challenge to our ability to create um taxonomies, UM and explanations and based on categories of animals and their relations to one another, because there's always the troublic question of how do we do this head of feet

in relation to ourselves? Um? And who's backwards? Are we built backwards or are they m Now you mentioned the mysterious, and of course you spent a lot of time in the book discussing mythologies and folklore concerning various cephalopods, and of course you get into the into the giant squid quite a bit as well. UM. So so getting more into the scientific realm here, can you tell us what role Japterese Steamstrup played in bridging squid myth and squid

science of the nineteenth century. Yeah, that's that's a great question for UM. Lots of reasons UM stage up. It's really the turning point from the tradition of UH, let's say, squid lower based on legends and UM uncertainty UH and the terminological vagueness that we were talking about two modern classifications that UM made possible scientific studies about squid since cephalopods UM. So for a number of years, especially in

the North Atlantic area, there had been UM. Of course, there were the legends of the creek and the big monsters that swallowed up UM ships or that people would mistake as islands and land on and perform religious rituals and and then be swallowed up and dragged down to the sea. UM. And those legends were intermixed with a number of beachings of giant squids UH, the Artitude of

ducks UM and other sightings of squids UH. And there were recorded as historically evince uh really starting um uh and let's say the sixteenth century by Guillame Brondelas who uh described um uh strange creatures that he referred to as um monkfish are episcopal fish, and he uh illustrated his roll delayed, that is, illustrated his accounts with drawings of of um preachers that had fins instead of feet

and hands. But we're wearing a monk's habit or cardinals miter um and that those sorts of accounts really verd on on um uh my and uh fabulous accounts um. But there was still an effort to provide some kind of empirical credence to the existence of the unbelievable monsters um. So as a number of sightings and beach things occurred. By the middle of the nineteenth century, uh stain stroke came along um and fortuitously no one gave him a beak from one of the um uh giant squids that

had beached um and Uh. He delivered a lecture in eighteen fifty four where he went through all the different accounts of sea monsters by Rondelay Uh and others, and he people are in the kind of a literary analysis of all the descriptions um which had probably been um um gathered by Rondalay and others from from fisherman's accounts who tried to describe these bizarre creatures they had seen UM and on the Statestrup then concluded that all these

accounts were referred to one very real creature. Uh. And so after a lengthy series of extra jesys of these various accounts, he quite dramatically um presented to his audience, Uh this beak he had been given a very imposing uh beak. A squid speak is like a hawk's beak or a parents beak, So it's really sharp and curved and mekets to tear flesh. Uh. So this is a

good size speak Uh. And he with that sort of dramatic flourish of showing his audience to speak um, he was really to to change the accounts of seafarers and and let's say the legends of monsters into a verifiable uh animal that could be given a scientific name. And uh he's the one who then gave it the name

Arctutus ducks. Uh. And with that name, uh, he basically cleared up the ambiguity that existence Aristotle and he uh allowed for a focused and discipline study of UM of squids based on UM, a real taxonomy, and a taxonomy that lays out UM different genera of squids, different species of squids, and is able to map their locations around the world. So m in in short stage really marks the transition from the world of myth and uncertainty and

ambiguity to the world of modern empirical study. Now, speaking of modern study, one of the big topics that comes up in all this, and you discussed in the book of course, is the is the our attempts to understand cephalopod intelligence UM, and you bring up some of our responses to cephalopod intelligence and even the idea that they could be quote the primates of the sea. What are what are the challenges and limits in play when it comes to understanding the mind of the squid? Well, the

cheligence a player or or are great. Even even though UH there is such thing as uh scientific study of squids and uh um the science of squids is growing. The taxonomy of squids is UM expanding exponentially as more and more species in general are being discovered continually UM. But on the other hand, exactly what these creatures on her still remains UM cheezing, because they're these strange creatures

whose heads consists of feet UM. But they also have sizeable brains UM, and they show a real intelligence UM. The marine biologists differ. Mather, as pointed out, I think most valuable, valuably UM that squids exist in on courting

her hair worlds away from us UM. And even though she says, even though their their brains may not have quite the same UM structure as ours, they can still be seen to work in analogous ways to our brains, and therefore their intelligence can be seen to be somewhat analogous, albeit bizarre. UM. It's worth noting that the squid brains UM regulate movement through visual cues UM. That makes UM their perception UM and their movement their response to that

perception almost simultaneous. In fact, so simultaneous has to be virtually the same event. Whereas let's say, in humans, most land creatures, UM, we perceived something and it might take a second or two to to respond UH, squids perceive and UH respond instantaneously. UH. Scientists have focused UM, particularly on what they call it the giant act on a very large nerve fiber that radiates throughout the wall of

the mantle the tubular part of the squid. UH. This this nerve about a millimeter and diameter UH, really the largest nerves of any any animal in the world. And it's the size of the nerves that is able to enables the squid to transmit um as perceptions from its eyes and other receptors around this body instantaneously into as

musculature to move UH so that they can UM. They can propel themselves by by shooting out streams of water within milliseconds of of UM perceiving something that they want to attack UH and UM their intelligence that really is I think can cannon should be described as want of movement onto one hand and predation on the other hand. Or really that's that's us the same as well, because they really are predators UH. And they are hyper sensitive

UM to the UM their environment. UM. They have a number of organs and mechanisms for perception, not just their eyes but long their their entire bodies UM that are able to perceive well beyond our five sences. They don't have hearing almost certainly, but they are able to perceive um motion uh and motion and a very very fine

degree um. And they also then can uh famously change colors um flash colors brilliantly illuminate themselves through chromatic fours, which are essentially um facts of of pick miants that cover their entire body uh and that can be um contracted and um opened um will to change the color

of the skin UM. And as these sacs open and shut, expand and contract um, they reveal uh some routiforms underneath, and the routifors reflect light back uh as a kind of iridescence that's a different kind of light, is more of a polarized light, which we humans aren't really geared to perceive. That we can see a kind of sheen the way you would see on a soap bubble. And these changes, these chromatophores are really controlled again by the

squid's eyes. So movement color changes are all instantaneous and um very much part of squid intelligence, governed by astonishing powers of perception, uh very dominant and and uh impressive nervous system uh and a brain so to do them as primates of the see they are again predators um and they pretty much live not at the top of the food chain, because of course they're eaten by many other creatures. But uh, their intelligence uh and their athleticism

certainly makes them formidable. Uh so UH definitely puts them at the top of many people's hierarchy than now. One of the one of the things that you mentioned here that really blew me away. You discuss handling and messengers research into quote unquote squid talk in touch on their idea that that the squid in particular may engage in not only play, but dishonesty in communication. What are we to make of this? Right? Right? That's that's that is

a delightful UM discovery by the scientists. UM. First of all, uh zniverer Mather again UM has studied um what she refers to as squiddish, the language of squids. UM just categorized that through studying um various postures and light flashes that squids uh make, so that she's able to come up with something approaching a lexicon. UM. And for the most part, UM, scientists and others UH look at the lexicon as as UM simply being informational the way we

usually think of animal communication being informational. UM. Birds UM UH squawk and chirp, perhaps to say, um, um, good morning, or you and I are boyfriend and girlfriend, or there's a predator close by or something like that. UM. And if we think of if we start to think as Roger Hanlon and John Messenger suggests that perhaps squids are not simply communicating information, but they're creating misinformation UM disinformation UH. That suggests that there's something else going on a higher

level of communication. And it suggests that there might even be a let's say, a performative quality to uh squiddi ish uh to squid communication, which is say, it's it's not literal, it's not simply um informational um, but it's something else UM. And that this honesty play a big role. And let's say literary allusions. So the very very much of literature UM does not simply consist of information UM

relayed about something. It's not simply uh the empirical um descriptions of Aristotle, but it's suggestive UM, it's elusive UM. It relies on puns um, and it can rely on jokes. UH. So that suggestions that UM. Squids are not simply um, let's say, unimaginative animals who are merely saying food here. Pred sure there, but UM perhaps have the capacity for

UM joking UM or UM imagination. But then since qui squids are undeniably major predators UM and even cannibals, we have to ask, UH, what are there jokes or what are they imagining? UM? Are they making jokes about us, which is discomforty um UM? Or are they making jokes with a punchline I will you um? Or if they're jokes are not found funny by other squids, will they be eaten? UM? That's a poling room for UM jokes

of our own. And also, UM worry that's that's amazing. UM. Now a lot of that, I guess we're talking about information, you know, bicephalopods for cephalopods. But but coming back to the topic of what cephalopods can do for us. UH, that's something that that certainly drives a lot of the research you point out, UM, what are the brightest possibilities here and what are the arguments for for eating cephalopods even if they might be primates of the sea. Because

I know that, UM. I know people who, for instance, are pastytarians but don't eat cephalopods or make a distinct

choice not to eat them. Based on some of the intelligence research out there, well, the argument for UM eating UM self pods is simply they're enormous numbers UM they they UM they swarmed throughout personally UM all UH oceans and ease except for the Black Sea UM and and alive quantities, and they are highly are the fisheries UH years around squids are very successful in catching large quantities of them UM and that's important UM in this time

of industrial fishing, when many species of a qualtify life are being simply wiped out through the drag netting and other forms of industrial fishing, so that um it really has become a mass produced kind of of food which are depleted, specially everything squids seems to be impervious to that, or at least so far UM and UM. That's that's

really the argument. I'm I'm gonna hold off on what it means to something of intelligence for just a second, because there are other possibilities or um ways humans have sought to use to exploit UH squid UH. One of course is they're the giant axon um, so that scientists have begun to harvest squids just for that nerve UM and the hopes of using them to uh read juvenate

UM humans who have become paralyzed, who have lost neurological functions. Uh. And that's that's a big hope for the pharmaceutical industry, or even suggestions that because of the squids um a capacity change colors that maybe um, some UM genius will find a way of transferring that used by the military industrial complex to allow UM let's say, camouflage in the battlefield, so that um um just as in phil Kate Dick's novels Scanner Darkly, where the policemen where these scanner suits

that change their physical configuration completely. Uh. So let's say warriors could change the films completely so that nobody could see them. UM. So that sounds pretty far fetched, but UM it's it's perhaps on at least the table um as for eating them, or let's say it's loading them in any sense UM for the military or U for

um uh medical uses. I think those arguments really wrestled doing them as resources UM, overlooking at intelligence UM or best as or at least disqualifying UM squid intelligence being less than human intelligence. UM. It's long been our tendency to say, uh, whatever is alien to us. Whatever is different from me. Uh, it cannot be as good as I am. Um And um, it can't even be real because it's not human, it's not really intelligent. Uh. And I might I might even mentioned that. Um. I submitted

my books to the press. One of the editors took real issue with my prossses to the squid humor. Um. She said, Uh, that's impossible. There's no such thing as humor in the animal world. Has never been documented. Um. Well, UM, I don't know. I disagree, as I said, I spent plenty time around forces, and I know that they could be real jokesters. Um. And I know dogs can be jokesters. And uh, fox hunters around the world will tell you about foxes playing real tricks. Um. And So there is

such thing as humor um. But it's hard to fathom of what self podh sepopod intelligence would be. But UM, I think it's also important to recognize. I'll just um challenge your farshating friends UM further and say, well, certainly all kinds of fish, all creatures of intelligence. Um. And we have to ask ourselves if it's just different from ours, or if it really is lesser than ours, which would

justify as eating a lesser being. UM. I don't know. Now, you of course get into cephalopod evolution, uh, taking us back six hundred million years. But but then something special seems to have occurred during the struggle with fish and marine reptiles. Can you describe what what what what we think happened here? UM? Well, of course at all highly expectative, UM.

But around four hundred and fifty million years ago, I believe this is what you're referring to, UH, what is always been called as the Devonian extinction, when UM pretty much all almost all life UM disappeared UM, and slowly animals began to reappear UM in in various parts of the world, but decidedly not in the deepest oceans because oxygen levels there are are low. But stuffle pods seem to do okay. Uh. They moved offshore. UM. Squids in particular,

UM moved into the deeper water. So that UH we again look back to Aristotle's to um accounts of the inshore and the offshore squids. Uh. The offshore squids grew bigger because squids generally lost UM, their shells, their molusky and shells UM. They UH we're able to move faster UM and they didn't have the bones that fishes had, UH, so that they were able to um prey upon the fish that previously preyed upon them because boneless squids were able to move much faster and react more quickly than

bony fishes could UM. So that was that was one of the theoretically one of the key steps in the development of of or squids to somewhat modern squids that we see fairly recently, relatively speaking. And I've already alluded to changes going on in the oceans today. Is there a cephalopod explosion happening in the world today? Are we seeing changes in cephalopod populations? Well, it certainly seems so

in many ways um UH. Popular presses around the world have referred to squid blooms or squids invasions, where large populations of supple pods show up in a particular area UM and it seems that that could be happening because of of UM climate change, so that UM the occurrence are shifting. That that's one explanation for why UM humble squids have shown up in large numbers in certain years

around Monterey Bay, California. UM uh and have social large numbers that they have washed ashore UH and and and you know, along by the by the millions UM, causing course um serious sidetic issues. UM. It's also possible because of which to say that the explosion of squids also possible UM because of of the depletion of other fish UM, of fish that might be eating squids or competing with

squids for um other food. UM. Maybe um whales have been uh depopulated enough to allow for explosions of squid. But it's also possible that people are starting to pay more attention to squids um. Uh. When there are putitive squid bloom somewhere, then fishing fleets will swarm to a particular area um and of fish that area heavily UM.

And Since squids have a fairly short line of very short life, generally about a year UM, they can disappear and then reappear again uh later on, and as they move through the currents, they can appear in a different place uh and again in large numbers UM I just mentioned uh squid breed infant large numbers that scientists have referred to them as the protein pump of the sea. So that ass say UH breed in one part of the sea and then moved to another part of the sea,

die and decompose. UH. They provide nutrients for other fish, other aquatic live forms UM so that UM they moved around in that way as well, UM so UM. At any rate, it seems that squids are highly adaptable if as climate change happens. UM. Squids, more than bony fish UM and other UM aquatic creatures UM, are very willing to change. UH. They're very willing to move into areas that had previously been thought to be incompatible with squids

or cephalopods or really any form of life UM. And I think that the bottom line there's we see that almost certainly squids will endure than now. Obviously, I love the section in the book on folklore e squids and how interconnected the folklore is with our our just basic understanding of the various species. And I think our listeners will particularly enjoy this section of the book as well. And I can't possibly ask you about all of it,

but one example I wanted to bring up. It was the the idea you share of the North Sea Reek, and the idea that the Sea Reek might be linked to ammonia in the giant squid body. Can you describe this? That's a a slight um connection UM that I hope I'm not um making too much of. But it is the case that the giant squid, artitude of ducts made famous by stains, ropen and others um, possesses um um um ammonia chloride and in its um um and it's

flesh uh. And the reason for that is that these are animals that live very deep in the ocean um and the ammonia chloride provides buoyancy so that they don't um float to the surface where they wouldn't want to be because they be eaten by birds or whatever. UM, and also prevents them from sinking down to the bottom. All squids have ammonia chloride um. Really just a giant

squid and a few other species in general. But in much of the folklore of squids uh folklore extending up into the novels of the modern era, the reek of ammonia is very much an aspect of an encounter worth a craken or half gufa or one of these monsters of the seas that would supposedly um uh wrapped their arms around the entire ship and drag it to the

to the bottom of the ocean. Um. So I think that the cea Reek and as a possible literal account of um uh, this this feared um, mythic and yet real monster that everyone dreaded um and always left kind of of tell tale odor uh. And it's weak. Throughout this section, I was just you know, trying to you know, put myself in the mindset, possible mindset of let's say, you know, a Norse seamen. Uh, you know, witnessing this, smelling these creatures, you know, and encountering uh, you know,

firsthand and then secondhand knowledge of them. Uh. It's really really remarkable. Well and and um frightening. Yes, of course the city is frightening enough, since we all know that humans aren't meant to be able to see in the natural sense. We tend to sink uh. And we else know that way down deep there are monsters like the vampire squids from Hell and giants, squids, cools attack our ships. Yeah.

And I love how this is a recurring theme in the book, talking about our relationship with the sea, our relationship then with squid, and then the idea of the squid, and of course that leads us to the squid gods. So when when even when I say squid gods, I know many listeners are probably thinking of of a certain fictional deity that will mention in a moment here. But there is a squid deity in Polynesian traditions, right well. Um, I hesitate to speak authoritatively about another culture, UM, but

Polynesian culture is very close to the ocean UM. And from what I was able to UM understand from my own very amateurish UM investigation, is that there are prayers to Knola, who described as a god of the squid. UM. Does not seem that that god is actually a squid, but is perhaps represented by a squid us, since it would be inappropriate to say uh the god's name directly literally.

But it is the case that also that, as in many UH cultures, UM, there are certain um beings that serve as family guardians UH, which can ward off threats on bring um good fortune UH to particular families. These these, of course, these guardians would be revered among those would be the squid UM, and in that regard, one of my happiest discoveries UM. But I was researching UM for the book UH. Well the modern New Zealand poet there in Kamali Um, who invokes um agents polity Nesian traditions

in his poetry. UM, he called upon guardian squids um to rejuvenate UM his culture UH that has been has subsuved by the Western views by commercial exploitation of non human life UM. And so his his songs about UH squids UM, about a squid becoming a man whose tentacles then become dreadlocks, who then chances these these rejuvenating songs UM, they've become chance calling up this this, this agents UM

UH life, this ancient um um um familiarity UH. And UM let's say companionship or guardianship among animals, or let's let's just put this way, an ancient community among humans and other creatures UH that perhaps can um rectify some of the ills caused by UM western exploitation UM and Western views that that UM squid intelligence cannot be UM compared to human intelligence. That has to be less than intelligence to enable us uh to exploit them just for

their nerve fibers or for their flesh. Well, I feel like that that would that would almost be a fitting end to the interview right there. But I have to, of course ask you about about the squid in in literature in particular, and some of the the the weirder weird fiction of of of the twenty and the twenty one century. And again there's a lot in the book. I'm not gonna ask you about everything. I encourage our our listeners to pick up a copy and dive in themselves.

But Uh, one of the big ones you, of course, discusses Jules Vernes treatment of the giant squid in twenty tho Leagues under the Sea. How essential is this novel to pop culture visions of the giant squid? Oh, well, it's it's enormously important. Um. In anyways, Verne uh does just the reverse of what uh stadings group uh did.

Um so that and the narratives. The main character, Professor Aronnax who was a natural historian UM, gives an account of the giant squids that she sees from inside the submarine that um uh led by the evil captain Nemo UM and he gives Aaron Axes descriptions very um accurate, empirical,

uh dispassionate description. But then almost immediately that scene turned into um uh very exciting, dramatic account where the squids are attacking the Nautilus um and uh they become the um repellent embodiment of the old myths um and who who are who trying to pull on Aaronax's companion, the harpoonist ned Land from the from the strip until Captain Nemo hacks off the tentacle of the squid um and so on. Uh. Ned Land is almost topped in two by the the the beak, the giant beak of the

monsters squid. So really, what Verne is able to accomplish there is making something seem something seems scientific uh into a uh a rejuvenation of the old myths of the craken of the sea monsters. Uh. So we end up with UM a decidedly modern, empirical kind of dread on a modern kind of anxiety. That so that we can name what these creatures are uh and still feel that that oh yikes, if I've been rowed into the sea, they'll definitely rap hole of me and shot me in

half with their giant beak. UM. So that that's really uh lay the groundwork, as as yourself set for much of the later kinds of stories that describe UM space aliens coming to the world and destroying the world. Um and of course those aliens all or squits. Yeah that that you of course you have bring up HP Lovecraft's Cthulhu and The Call of Cthulu, which I think most of our listeners are probably familiar with. But then you also touched on a work by William Hope Hodgson, The

Boats of Glenn Carrigg. And I've read Hodgson's The Night Land, but I wasn't familiar with this one. Can you tell us a little about it? And it's rolled in squid related weird fiction. First of all, I really have to give a shout up to my um great friend Tim Murphy, who is not only a lover of squid of back to almost as much as I am, but also an expert on Hodgson, this book and weird fixing fiction generally. Uh.

And he's he's just finishing a book on Hodgson. UM and the short the story of the Books of Glenn Carrig um uh come from the the voice of John Winterstraw, who's the narrator who's basically telling a kind of sailor's story of having once um uh encounters strange monsters at sea. UM. Basically, what happens in in his strange his sailor's story is that his ship UM, the Glenn Carrick, gets caught in a big field of seaweed let's say, probably something like

the Sargasso Sea. And it's worth noting parenthetically that Hodgson UM just spent quite a good time and the merchant marine. So he was familiar with ships UM. He was worried familiar with UM ship war uh and with these kinds of tales that sailors telemone another UM. But he also was interested in UM that the category of of fiction UH,

it's called weird weird fiction. UM. So while the game terrig is caught in um this Sargassas Sea or just a field of seaweed um UM, the sailors began to to um threat because they encounter other ships that have been obviously trapped there so long they've just become uh skeleton ships. Until finally they drift towards of what seems to be an island UH, and they try to um set up a residence on the island UM. And then UH winter Strong notices of a few times he looks

over the side of a boat um. And the title of the uh novel comes from the fact that the sailors escape from the ship from the land Carrick and the ships and boats which they rode towards the island. So while he's in one of these boats, winter Straw looks over the side and he sees a white human like face staring back up at him. Uh. The course um scares the Jesus out of him. Uh. And then once they get on the island, the sailors begin to encounter other beings. Uh. There seem to be encampments of

squid like characters. UM seems that perhaps these squid monsters are traveling underneath the island and subterranean caverns and showing up on land uh and attacking the fortified of the sailors. UH. And the the attacks happened um uh nightly over a standard time UH, even to the point that that the sailor has become exhausted. UH. And they said look out,

hoping to to war off more attacks. Winter Straw numerous points looks out to sea and he can see the uh squid monsters swarming into the island and um what he describes as discipline formations. So it's the squid army coming to attack the marooned sailors uh and the disturbing faulty there and they're really intriguing paulity. And I think this is what Hodge and what makes Hodges and such an interesting writer and much of his work um uh

is that he really probes the question of alien intelligence. UM. What what a lot of what you and I have been talking about in the past few minutes. UM. In this regard, we could even think back, perhaps to the

squid jokes. UM. That might not be funny to us, because these disciplined military formations of squids uh would seem to demonstrate uh high intelligence, very sophisticated intelligence, and an intelligence that's directed at us humans in a way that is about as discomforting as I think is possible, and that is thinking of us humans as the resources for a squid economy. UH. So the question would be what use would humans be to a squid sibilant zation? How

can humans be exploited by squid intelligence? UM? And that really goes against everything that UM we want to say about ourselves and relation to our fellow creatures uh and about our view of ourselves as UH. The only dominant

intelligent force on the planet. And I think it's it's as my Tim Murphy suggests and brought his discussion of weird fiction, UM, since weird fiction is pretty far removed from let's a mainstream fiction, that's the kind of question that weird fiction can ask that other forms of of literary inquiry or other forms of scientific um or just

oracle inquiry really cannot venture into. UH. And that's I think the value of weird fiction and UM the value of learning how to read um the myths and legends of ancient uh times and the um uh theological accounts of other cultures in a less skeptical way, perhaps in a more open minded sense of of seeing that maybe we're not the only intelligence and maybe there are other ways of of engaging intelligently with the world. Excellent. Well, uh,

you know. Finally, one last question here after reading the book, I have a couple of guesses about what your answer might be. But do you have a favorite squid species? Oh? Absolutely, I don't even have to have state. UM my favorite squid UM is a little apart from the traditional favorite squid um. The favorite squid I think it generally is um. The giant squid because of all the lore uh that's

growing up around over the millennia. But I really became fascinated by the Humboldt squid UM the um, the filicus gigas right, which is about five ft long. UM. It's also referred to as the red devil because it has plenty of lore of its own. UM. So that we hear over over again. UM. Sailors fall from the boats UM, they're fishing boats, and they're immediately devoured by swarms of of the Humboldt squids who chumped them to pieces. UM

and UH. There there are videos on YouTube of of underwater cameraman being attacked by uh one of these five ft long squids coming after him and ripping his oxygen hose and and so on. UM. And of course, these these are the squids that um defy explanation and their ability to pass through UM areas of the ocean where there is there is no action uh and and where they're not supposed to be able to go, and yet

they do. UM. And they're also hunted in large numbers for their giant axons UH and UM and their flesh and their fears. And I think because of their adaptability, uh, their voraciousness. Um. And I'll just add this one detail. Um, there's one um weird weird lead of delightful video of sub scientists putting a camera on a humble squid to see how it interacts with other humbold squids or what

it does way down and the ocean depth. Uh. But the video only lasts a few seconds because you can tell the squid is descending and then immediately another squid approaches and Egypt. So the three blank um. So that that aggression, even to um, cannibalism of of one's um schoolmates, of maybe one even once family, that's consumable. Um. All that is alien and it's right to the heart of why I wanted to write the book. Excellent. Well again for everyone out there that the book is Squid. It

is part of Reactions Animal series. It's available in physical and digital formats. And and now that I know that you also have one on the Fox, I'm gonna have to pick that up as well. Uh. I'm instantly thinking of all the various folklores funding the Fox and it's secretive nature. Oh great, right, and just just go to plug out. Let me say that, Uh, there are hundreds um different animals covers and Reactions series. Um. And really

all those books have have a great deal to offer. Um. They all all the different authors have their own approaches to particular animals. Um. Not everyone who's trained in literature as I am. There, scientists, sociologists, historians, um, journalists, um you name it. Uh. So many people have been intrigued by how to how to talk about an animals and what it means to try to understand the relevance of one animal to human life and culture. Excellent. Well, than

thanks for being on the show, Martin. Sure, thank you are inviting me. I really appreciate it. All right, Thanks again to Martin Wallon for taking time out of his day to chat with me again. The book is Squid from one part of the Reaction Animal series, which also includes Wallon's book on the Fox. Wallon's other works include

Whose Dog Are You? The Technology of Dog Breeds and The Aesthetics of Modern Human Canine Relations and A City of Health, Fields of Disease, Revolutions in the Poetry, Medicine, and philosophy of Romanticism. As always, if you want to listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow your mind, you can find them in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed, which will get wherever you find your podcast.

Core science and culture episodes published on Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener mail on Monday's short form Artifact or Monster Fact on Wednesdays, and on Friday, we set aside most serious concerns and just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. If you'd like to reach out to me or Joe or any of us here at the show, simply drop us an email at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind

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