Normalcy Bias and Psychogenic Death

And then there's a window covered up by curtain. Now imagine suddenly the curtain blows out and and we're also suddenly we're being sucked out the window as if this is a pressurized aircraft cabin. I don't know why that would happen, but let's assume there's like a you know, a sharknado on the other side. Is King Kong on the other side of this way though, King Kong and a sharknado most likely? Okay, yeah, all right, got it in my head. Go on, Okay, So how do we react?

How do we react to look to set sudden interruption of normal life? Normalcy is quite literally going out the window, and suddenly life has become this just complete struggle for survival and every second counts. Okay, well, I think we have three options here. One is that you could just shriek and freak out right and not really do yourself any sort of service here, always a good option, Okay. The second thing is you could just stare, you know, sort of into oblivion as King Kong takes you into

his clutches and stuffs you into his mouth. Just stare and not do anything. Okay, Well, at least I'm not gonna look foolish. Okay. The third thing is you can try to save yourself. You could try to flee from the situation in some way as you're getting sucked out, maybe you hold onto something that the window casing, and you try to crawl back into the room and then escape through the emergency exits. And what's interesting is when

you when you think of these three possibilities. Yes, and when we can all put we all certainly will go through these scenarios in our own head. Maybe not the King Sharknado combination one, but we we inevitably think about what am I gonna do in disaster strikes, and we imagine ourselves typically going through that to survivalist instinct we imagine ourselves doing the thing that logically would need to be done to survive. But does it shake out that way?

I mean it does in the movies. Well, all of us think, of course, we would hold onto the window frame and we would somehow escape the clutches of King Kong and Sharknado. But this is according to Esther ingliss Arkel,

she's writing for I oh nine. She says about seventy percent of people in a disaster exhibit this sort of unusual Ladi da behavior, just staring into a blivion ten to fent, freak out in another ten to fent, react to the situation accordingly, efficiently, and orderly, and they do the thing they're supposed to do so, in other words, they get the hell out of dodge. And that is crazy because you just you we're programmed, especially by movies and disaster movies, to to to not see things breaking

down along along the percentage lines like that. The image that always comes back to me is the original Blob movie, The Blob Steve McQueen. There's a scene where the Blob has made its way. You know, it's rather grown at this point. You know, the blob right big jelly creature that dissolves people, makes its way into a movie theater, crowded movie theater, and then all hell breaks loose and there's this wonderful scene of everyone just rushing out of

that movie theater. And then there's a fabulous scene after that, the blob oozing out of the theater doors and the crowd just running in front of it like everybody knows what's up. It's all right, there's a there's a blob. We're all going to freak out, We're all gonna run, and you can you can view that freaking out and running as you know that as either just completely freaking out and making a run for or doing the logical thing.

But either way, it doesn't line up with these percentage points that we're looking at, because seventy of them would be just setting there being are we supposed to? This is being the movies over? Should I sit there? Hey? Hey, you do you know if the movie is over, we're gonna get a refund on this. And meanwhile, you do just just get your flesh dissolved off of you by a monster. All right, Well, let me give you a real life example of that. That's example, well one that

actually happened for real, the not on a film. Actually, it's one of the best known examples of this sort of emergency situation in which people gravitate towards what is called a normalcy bias. And we'll talk more about that in a moment, but in this scenario, we're talking about two planes that collided on a runway in the Canary Islands nine and one of the survivors, Paul Heck, he grabbed his unresponsive wife who just sat there, you know,

sort of saying what what's going on? And what they did is they got, of course the hell out of dodge and on the way is they are passing other passengers, they're noticing people who are just sitting there, staring straight ahead, not doing anything. They're uninjured people. And what happened is that they only had sixty seconds to leave that plane before it was engulfed in flames. And it was a huge, huge fatality for that flight. A lot of people did

not get out of it. It and so a lot of emergency management personnel look at that case is why why do those people who are uninjured sit on that plane and do nothing? Is this um because they were unprepared? Is this some sort of instinct in humans or is there something else going on here? And that's what we're really going to try to get at the heart of today. Yeah, so a normal cy bias is what it sounds like.

It's a bias towards thinking everything's okay, minimizing with the actual risk, and thinking must not be that big of a deal. We've all had this, uh, certainly as you just observe your environment around us. I mean there are times where you freak out and you say, oh, the shady person on the street, I better up to no good. But then a little reason creeps in and you're like, well, there, it's probably okay. I'm going to air on the side

of just assuming everything is completely normal. Yeah. I mean, we really sometimes underestimate things, and we'll talk more about why we do that, but I wanted to say that According to a National Institute of Standards and Technology study, which was drawn from the interviews with nearly nine dred survive verse of nine eleven, they said that the people who made it out of the World Trade Center waited

an average of six minutes before leaving their desks. So what we're talking about here is this idea that you are looking at the odds, You're plane the odds because really, on a day to day basis, we don't have really that many, um real dangers in front of us, and we have imagined dangers that we do with all the time.

So it's like a matter of sort of suessing those out. Well. Like, I think about this every time I board a plane, because on one hand, I have every disaster movie I've ever seen, you know, plane rex happening all the time, and those because the story of someone getting on an airplane is generally only interesting if there's a creature on the wing of the plane where it crashes into a mountain. Then people have to eat each other. I mean, you

need to drum. But then I start breaking it down and I think, I think of I think of football, which I almost never do, but I think, how many times have I ever heard on the news, Oh, an entire football team was lost in a plane crash today, or they can't have this football game because half the team went down. Um. You know cases like this that remind me that, hey, these are people that fly around all the time, Um, why do I not hear of them?

Parash it? Yeah, I mean that takes an enormous amount of mental energy in the first place for some of us to board that plane and convince ourselves that it's a good idea to get into this this metal hole that's just flinging itself through time and space, and and

that it's going to all turn out okay. Right. In my theory about the seats, I think the reason that the seats are so uncomfortable and seemed to be designed to to to make you uncomfortable is so that you end up focusing on the immediate discomfort of having to cram yourself into that small space and deal with all these people around you, rather than the actual uh potential of crashing into a mountain. Right. So you have a

couple of different elements going on there. You have all this this uh, the stories that you've told yourself that allows you to get on the plane in the first place. You have distraction, and then when a real emergency happens, you have something called milling, which is part of that playing the odds process, right, because milling is this idea that people will check in with one another before taking action, saying, is this really a dangerous situation? Are we okay? Did

you did you hear something is that. Does that the engine sound weird to you? Did you see that creature on the wing of the plane, because I'm not sure that's real. Uh. And what's interesting about this this million is that we're not On one hand, it is, yes, an attempt to get the best information. You don't want to jump to conclusions, and you you want to make sure you get the best possible information from a few different people. But on the other hand, you also want

to get specific information. You you keep you want to keep asking the question, do you get the answer that feels right, the answer that feeds more comforting. You want somebody to tell you, Oh, it's no big deal. Engines make that kind of noise. The creatures live on the wing of the plane. It's just how it works. Here's a kind of a rote example. But if you've ever been um in an area where there was a tornado warning, have you ever called someone up and said, Hey, what's

the weather like over there? Or I mean, have you ever called up a you know, a friend or a family member and said, I like, tornado is coming my way. I'm I'm terrified of tornadoes, So I if I have any reason to believe they're in the area. Then I well, I head to the basement if there's a basement, and if not, I guess I just freeze up and wait for death. So but you batten down the hatches, right, Yeah, I know, not to go look out the window because

it could blast in on me and kill me. Well, from that National Institute of Standards and Technology study, another finding was that on none elevidently, seventy of survivors spoke with other people before trying to leave. The study shows so again it's this Milling idea that sometimes it's not just sitting there in disbelief in doing nothing. Sometimes it's just trying to collect data, even in the face of really significant data in front of you, saying this is

an extraordinary situation. You should do something about it. Now. Yeah. I mean we're social animals, you know, so it makes sense that we would reach out for these answers. Um And you see this all the time with with other threats to less concrete threats where people end up just going and go online and to find out let me feed this fear or let me put out put out the fires of this fear with enough you know, links

from this website or another. Well, I think that's the curse of knowledge, right, We all the time are getting sorts of messages, warning messages, especially here in the United States. Other countries make fun of us for this, But you could have a pillow and on that pillow there's going to be some sort of warning on there that says, you know, please don't suffocate yourself. Just because of all

the legal battles we have here in the States. Um So at some point those messages just we they recede into the background because there are so many of them to filter through. And again, there are so many real threats versus perceived threats that the mind does want to do a little bit of milling to figure out what's what. Yeah, like, is this is this? Is this a toy that is actually inappropriate for my child that will actually kill him?

Or is this just one of those situations where it's a bunch of legal mambo jumbo because you could conceivably strangle yourself with a toy horse Probably not gonna happen, But lithium ion batteries keep them away from kids. Okay, that's my p s A for this podcast, because we get out juice stuff on them. No, no, it's it's horrible, for they're tiny, you know, the size of quarter, and it can do horrible that Actually children can die from

ingesting them to keep them away half. Indeed, all right, let's take a quick break, and when we get back, we're going to talk about survival psychology in this idea of psychogenic death. All right, we're back. So is there a positive spin here to those just milling about? There is and and And to understand the positive you have to remind yourself again, Seventy people of the people are just setting there, are going, hey, is there something weird?

Is there's something wrong? Ten percent are in action mode, no what to do? That's ten, and the other ten to fifteen percent are freaking the heck out. One positive is that all of those calm people who don't know what's up and are just asking and milling uh and and and have that normalusly bias fully engaged, they have

a calming effect on the freakouts. That's true. And some people would argue that it makes it easier for that ten to to actually exit even faster, because well, if nobody's clogging the stairwells or other exit strategies, then you

can zip through there pretty quickly. Yeah. But then that that's the downside as well, is that those ten percent who realize what needs to happen, we need to get off of this plane before we're all consumed by fire, they could actually have their progress um um impeded by the individuals who are just setting there asking what's up. There's saying is there's something wrong, is there's something on the matter, and they're saying, no, you need to get out of my way, or and you need to run

for it too, because we have to survive. The ideal situation is that that ten percent would actually get people sort of you know, a fire under the artist and say, okay, I see that person in action, I will now follow suit. And we have seen this over and over again in other emergency scenarios, particularly in UM being the world trade centers and not eleven attacks. So UM I wanted to just shift a little bit and go into survival psychology

and highlight someone named John Leech. He's a survivor psychologist, and he says that we need to reframe the question of survival and quit sort of looking at these examples of the survivor or not just as they're innately courageous and they have this robust will to live. But rather we should be looking at the people who do not make it and asking the question, why do people die

when they don't need to. Yeah, particularly gets into this idea of psychogenic death, which is a really snazzy term, and it refers to a biological process that takes place as in natural death, but it's triggered at a premature stage in the person's life, when they're under all this script. So it's it's kind of this idea of al right, plane crashes and you have some people who have that strong will to survive, they're a survivor type, they're gonna

make it. But then there are people who just shut down. They die within the first first one or one to three days. And and why is that. It's like, it's not like they had a grievous injuries, they just shut down. Yeah, He's got all sorts of examples that he points to. He talks about light aircraft crash and Sierra Nevada, and he says that of the three people on board, one passenger was trapped in the wreckage, so obviously that person

couldn't do anything. Another person had no more than superficial bruising. But then you have the pilot who had injuries to his arm, ankle and ribs. And it was actually the pilot who left the scene and for eleven days he walked and he hiked through the snow covered mountains before reaching a road and getting help. Now, after that eleven days, both the person who had just the superficial wounds and the person of course who was trapped in the wreckage

they died. But the question was why did the person with just the minimal wounds perish when he had acts us to water in food and shelter and could have made a fire. So does it come down to this like, oh, you're just prepackaged with courage and know how. Uh No, According to Leach, it all has to do with the way that you're processing that information and in some cases

your past experiences. Yeah. And he makes a strong argument too that it's it's you know, we tend to think of you know, stress comes our way, threat comes our way, and it's fight or flight, right, Am I gonna punch it in the face or turntail and run? And he's arguing that it's really more than this situation of fight, flight or freeze? Am I going to punch it in the face. Am I going to run away from it? Or am I just gonna stand there and let it take me? Yeah, Because he's saying that there's a lot

to take in when a trauma happens. He's saying there's pre impact, impact, recovery, rescue, and post trauma. And he said that most people have a certain cognitive load that were that that sort of normalized to our day to day operations. Right, We've talked about called it to load, this idea that you have just finite resources of energy for your brain to operate on. And so he's saying that if you have this extrnsic condition bringing with it all sorts of new data in a new environment, it's

gonna crash your brain. So what he said is that what happens is that in the first three days, particularly you're looking at the end of this this situation in Sierra Nevada Mountains, um that those first three days were really important to the survival of the people who were still alive, because that's when the executive functions will fritz out, and when that happens, working memory that stops and you have you know, at selective attention, disturbed and that becomes

really important because that selective attention is what allows you to really focus on what matters in Maelstrom. Right, if you've got you for you're on a plane and smoke is rolling in and people are screaming or just sitting there, you still have a situation that is new to you, and you have to figure out what's important here? Now, what's happening when people freeze up? What are we talking about here? Um? Now? Leach refers to this as cognitive paralysis,

So we're talking complete in action. We're talking uh, just setting there, uh, not not fighting, not flighting, just just shutting down completely. And he does say that you can actually recover from this, But what becomes so important is that if you if you can't find a way out of that, if you can't find some sort of clarity in there and get back to your working memory, well then it's just gonna usually have cognitive dysfunction, which is probably what happened to the survivor in the plane crash

who for eleven days sat there. Is perhaps after the third day that his brain just said, forget it, We're gonna shut this down. And that's what's so interesting about that idea of psychogenic death that your brain could fold up in on itself and say, Okay, I'm just gonna draw the covers here. Yeah. Yeah, And and we and again, we we all think we're going to be the survivor type. We all kind of even if we're we have a

pretty realistic understanding of our skills. Like if I crashed in a plane in the mountain, I'd have to realize, yeah, I'm probably not going to fashion a bow and arrow and hunt a grizzly bear or anything like that. But I like to think that I'll at least have, you know, the clarity of mind enough to to sort of look around and realize what my options are. But maybe that's not gonna be the kicks. Maybe I'm going to freak

the heck out, or I'm just gonna freeze. So the thing that makes the difference here is really the ability to call up patterns again, that selective memory, or not just the working memory, but that selective attention and in some ways training yourself for for the emergency at hand. And when you look at Paul Heck and that example of the two planes colliding, it turns out that he as a child was involved in a theater fire, and since then he had always made sure to check exits

no matter where he was. In fact, when he boarded the plane with his wife, he pointed out to his wife, Hey, look, these are the emergency exits. And so the idea is that when the plane crash occurred, he wasn't as um reliant on trying to piece together new information. In fact, he could go to that blueprint that he already had

stored in his brain and act quickly. So in some ways, you can look at the survivors and say, Okay, it may be that they're prepared to some extent, or they've had some sort of life experience that has told them that they should be more aware of their environment and ready to act on it, and are subconsciously storing away information that could help them. That's interesting. Yeah, the the idea of sort of a domestic animal versus a wild

animal suddenly put in a situation of extreme danger. One has never had to really deal with threats and is completely overwhelmed by the predator in smits. The other has always lived in the raw and therefore is more prepared to act appropriately in the face of danger. Yeah, And when I was reading about Paul hex account. I thought this sounds like my dad, and my dad was actually in special ops in Vietnam, and so in some ways

he has had a lot of the survival training. But this is a guy my dad who every time he goes into a hotel will go and look at the map of the hotel that's pasted on the back of the door in the hotel room, look at the emergency exits, and then he will leave the room and count the number of doors it takes to get the emergency exit. So he has that information in his mind. And you know, he didn't train my brother and I to do the same thing, but in a way, we subconsciously saw how

he was behaving. And both my brother and I, when we enter a room, most likely we are going to take the seat that is facing the door so we can have a bead on the door to exit. And it's weird way. We've talked about this before, so there may be something to that. Okay, So in the face of appropriate training and or real life experience, you're you're likely to be in a better position to act appropriately in the face of the threat. Right. It's no guarantee,

but it helps, right, Yeah, case in point. If I may draw another example from science fiction. Um in the movie Aliens, the mission there into the colony, it went bad, and what happened. You had Private Hudson freaked out. He was definitely in that ten of the freak out, We're all gonna die game over. You had Lieutenant Gorman. He was definitely in that se though, where he was just he you know, he froze up, froze up, just was was asking questions and was of no use. But then

you had meanwhile, you had Hicks and Ripley. They acted responsibly and they made it to the end of the movie. There you go. So all right, now you know we're focusing on the survivors, which is what we weren't cointd. We're gonna focus more on and in order to do that, you really have to look at animals in this reflexive ability to go into tonic immobility or fantatosis, which is something that we talked about last week. Yeah, Like the basic idea here is you have a bunch of ducks.

The foxes move in attack the ducks, and what do the ducks do a number of the ducks they just freeze up. They play dead if you will. But it's not a conscious act of playing dead. It's it's it's it's just it kicks in. It's a it's involuntary. They're just they're they're just laying there acting dead for all

intents and purposes. The foxes are mouthing them, dragging them off to store their bodies for later, and and this allows them the possibility to escape later on, though it's not a very high possibility, but apparently they stand a better chance playing dead and escaping than you know, standing up and fighting against the foxes. Right, And that's that example of more of what is a pre meditative response, at least we think in nature, But there are other

examples that seem to be reflexive. And when I think about that, I think about the great white, which can enter that tonic immobility state and basically take the vital signs down to the studs, whereas something like the fox or an opossum still has its metabolic rate at its

normal rate and doesn't off it. Yeah, and you also see it in a number of farm animals to where actual um, you know, vet's in an animal husbandry where it's useful to exploit this because you know that if you kind of handle the animal the right way, it's gonna freeze up, and it's going to be very calm and still, and it's essentially give up and submit to your handling. So in this sense, could humans that could they be entering into what would be a sort of

reflective state of of tonic immobility. And in order to answer this question about whether or not that's exists in animals, we're gonna look at a study called Biological Evidence from Victims of Traumatic Stress and this was actually published in Biological Psychology by Alien and Vulcan. You have the Brazilian study from two thousand eleven, and uh, it's it's pretty interesting. They looked at thirty three trauma survivors, fifteen women, including

eighteen with the diagnosis of post traumatic stress disorder. Now what happened to this is they were they were all asked to describe the ordeals that they went through in detail, and then that you know that they took these accounts and they transcribed them into basically sixty second audio narrative, which is in a male voice presented in a second

person presentense form, so kind of like role playing. You're walking down the street, there's a shadow that sort of thing, all right, So each participants account is been played back for them over headphones while they stand on a platform that records body sway. Their heart rates also monitored during this and afterwards, they asked questions about how they felt as they listened to this, to this recording, to this, uh, this,

this transcribed account of their incident. And what's interested with the participants who reported a strong sense of being paralyzed, frozen, unable to move her scream, they tended to show less body sway, higher heart rate, and less heart rate veriability. Yeah, and this was true across both PTSD and non PTSD patients, but it was the PTSD patients who were more likely to report feelings of paralysis while listening to these recordings

of their ordeals. And so the idea is that those who suffered a trauma, in particular rape victims, may have reflexively entered into a state of tonic immobility, hinting that this kind of frozen state that we see in animals happens in humans when we're faced with a life or death situation. Yeah, that's some some tough stuff to think about. I mean, it's it's really really some kind of dark

material to process. It really is, and I think that it gives us a much more nuanced look at how we're react in these situations, because a lot of us say, oh, I'm the wolf in this situation and you're the sheep or the sheep dog. And it's not that black and white, um, as we know any The ways in which our brain operate depend on the context, that path depends on past experience, UM. And so you know, you're not maybe always going to be the wolf or the sheep dog in a situation. Yeah. Yeah.

I think one of the big overall take homes from all of this is just a more realistic understanding of how humans um react to threat, react to stress, and and what we can do, uh, you know, in in

a reasonable sense to prepare for bad times. And of course it all takes a little bit of preparation or a lot, depending on the situation, and then just kind of calming the mind, because otherwise you're gonna be Chess Tannembomb in the Royal Tannembombs, taking your family through an endless fire, drill your entire life, trying to prepare and not living actually in the moment. But the fire drill is a great example, you know, and they stress you know,

have have an emergency plan for your household. It doesn't necessarily mean you're going through the fire drill every night, but but having like a general idea like, hey, if there's something weird, like if you know, if something happens to the house, where's where's the point where we meet up? You know, if there's if if if the smoke detector goes off, you know, what do we do? What what is the what is the appropriate response? And you maybe

even rehearse that to a certain extent. Of course, the closest thing that comes to mind with that, outside of just you know, workplace fire drill, school fire drill settings, is that when I was I think junior high, that was when I had that definitely fear of being abducted by aliens, and I would run the escape scenario over my head that if I if they come into my room, how am I going to escape? How close am eight of the door? Uh? And and how close am eight

of the window? You, sir, probably would have avoided being abducted by an alien improbed, I hope. So, But then again that's the trap we all fall into right. We think we're gonna we're gonna be the one to run away from the alien, but are just gonna lay there and take it. Well, you know, we have talked about the whole body paralysis that happens when people think that they're getting alien or abducted by aliens. Um, I will

tell you one thing. The next time our office building has a fire drill, I will not, as I usually do, skip out twenty minutes early and go get a sandwich and avoid the whole ordeal. I am going to line up with everybody and go down those endless flights of stairs again and again. I'm not gonna do that. I'm going to go for the sandwich. Alright. It is far

more effective. And really that puts me, I think in the tent ten to fifteen percent of people who say, oh, there's gonna be a fire drill, I'm gonna be proactive about this and not be here for it. And then the other ten of fifteen percent that freak out and they just start ripping off their clothes and running around. Yeah, you never see that during the fire drills here. But but he doesn't remind me of the there was no no I have not been again, I'm always getting the

sandwich st you miss out, my friend. Yeah, but it reminds me of that episode of the Office where I think there was it was a fire drill situation where everyone just goes completely baddy and you know, they're they're they're knocking stuff over there, running around like crazy and uh and again that was probably uh, that was probably an exaggeration as well, because they're they're putting something that would have been tend to fifteen percent of people freaking

out and extrapolating it to everyone. Well, the question is if media began to you know, report it in that way via our stories that we tell, you know, film books of this sevent normalcy bias, would we begin to change or be hevi we're more aware of this. That's interesting.

You know, I just watched the new trailer for the new Godzilla movie and and it would be interest I'm sure they're not gonna do it, but what if this new Godzilla movie showed a realistic interpretation in which seventy of the people just sat there and we're like, hey, did you hit? Is there a giant lizard outside? Did you? Is this on the news that's on it's on MSNBC. Is it also on Fox News? We should check out CNN to to see what CNN is reporting, and it

would be less traumatics. Yeah, this is They're not gonna let us direct Godzilla too. No. No, someone somewhere just tip their cigar into nash Ria and said, forget those kids, forget him, forget them all right, So there you go, look at the world of normalcy bias and psychogenic death. Let's call the robot over here and do a quick listener mail. Do it all right? This one comes to us from Hannah. Hannah writes in and says, good and talk Julian Robert. Back in February two thousand twelve, you

did an episode about rat kings. Uh, and I just mentioned rat kings in this episode, so this is uh, this is this is good. Just I'm relatively new to the podcast and I just listened to that episode. I thought you'd be interested to know about something that happened in June two thousand thirteen in Germany, hence the greeting A squirrel king was found. This was a group of baby gray squirrels that had gotten stuck together at the tails by tree sap that had gotten into their nest.

They were successfully separated by veterinarians. One can assume, considering the massive population of squirrels in the world, that this has happened to other leaders of squirrels who weren't lucky enough to be aided by humans. Happy holidays, Hannah in Oakland. Well there you go. All right, Um, that's terrifying to think of, especially when I look at all of the

squirrels in my backyard just marauding. Yeah, well, I think when I when we covered rat kings, I can't remember we mentioned it, but I remember running across mentioned in our research of a squirrel king. But it may not have made it into the podcast because really, you already talking about about rat That's enough cryptozoological mumbo jumbo or not to to discuss in one podcast without getting into

the squirrels. But but the squirrel example brought up here is very interesting and maybe a little less frightening, perhaps perhaps slightly less. I mean, if if the rat king is a portent of death and disease and medieval plague striking down your city, what does the squirrel king represent? Home values are gonna dip? I don't know, it just doesn't seem like it would be near as the Diers.

I'm still thinking about it. Hey, I wanted to mention that before we started podcasting, our video producer, Tyler came in here and he filmed us chit chatting, and that's when we were actually talking about the squirrel King. So if you guys want to excuse me, the rat King. So, if you guys want to check that out, make sure to go to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com because no doubt the video is hanging out there. Um. I have one quick, super quick email that came through.

This is from Jennifer and the subject line with sasquatch and it's simply said, spirit totem. Only those meant to see will see be well. Sounds good to me. I know, I loved it. Thank you. Cryptic and delightful and I'm not sure if that is in jest or not, but it doesn't matter. It's pretty great either way. All right,

on that note, let's go and close it out. Hey, you want to get in touch with us, You want to check out this video that Julie mentioned of us prepping for this episode and just getting comfortable on our chairs. You want to listen to all the podcast episodes in the past, such as that rat King episode, such as the episodes to do with sleep paralysis, all of them.

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thoughts with us, you can do so. Blow the mind at discovery dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff works dot com? Could you Indu? Could you into the pla