Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.
Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert.
Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.
Now many times on Stuff to Blow Your Mind when discussing religion and the ancient Greco Roman world, we have referred to the mystery cults, also known as the sacred mysteries, or even the mysteries. Watching my Stories, we've discussed specific
mystery cults and a little more depth. But I was recently thinking about this and I realized that this was a topic that deserved deeper consideration, and indeed, I think more than once I've personally kind of left it at and this deity was also taken up by the mystery cults, as if to delve deeper is impossible or somehow forbidden. Now, certainly mysteries surrounding the various mystery cults remain and much is left open to interpretation, but we do know quite
a lot. Whole books have been written on the topic, and we're going to follow along in these episodes to see what we can learn and share about the mysteries.
Well, Rob, I am excited to go on a journey exploring the mystery cults of the Greco Roman world. But I kind of like the way that you used to leave it off, you know, just you know, in this deity yes became a focus of the mystery cults and saying no more, because that is a tradition going all the way back to the ancient world itself. One of the main sources we're going to be using in this series is a great book called Mystery Cults in the
Ancient World that just got a new edition out. I think it was originally published over a decade ago, but it got a new edition in twenty twenty three by an author named Hugh Bowden, who is a professor of ancient history at King's College, London. This is a really great book. But one of the things he mentioned several times is ancient writers bringing up a mystery cult and then saying I have been instructed in a dream not to say any more about this.
I can.
My lips are sealed, like Paulsenius will be like, then, this really interesting thing happened in Samothrace, of which I can tell you nothing, which itself makes for a very enticing subject.
Yeah, and and course runs completely counter to our modern understanding of history, like, now everything must be revealed, Please reveal it to us.
Yeah, everything except when you have met face to face the terrifying power of a god or a goddess. Now, Rob, I know today you wanted to wanted to do some work laying the groundwork establishing a bit about the historical context of broader Greco Roman religion in the ancient Mediterranean world, which is the context in which these mystery cults existed.
But before we do that, I thought it might be important just to do a little bit of disambiguation on terminology, because if you are coming into an episode called mystery cults, and you are bringing the normal connotations of the word mystery and cult that modern English speakers would bring with you, that might send your mind off in several different wrong directions at once.
That's right. If you were to tell someone I just joined a mystery cult today, you might be it might be accurate to think, oh, this individual joined a book club, or maybe this is a really cool band name. And if someone were to join a mystery cult, say in the nineteen eighties or nineteen nineties in say the United States, well it's going to have different connotations and it might read to a certain it might lead to a certain
amount of panic. But yeah, we have to differentiate a mystery cult in its ancient application.
Here, right, And so we need to do work on both of those words, actually, on mystery and on cult. So in in modern English, the word cult is typically used to mean a specific type of religious phenomenon, almost always with pejorative connotations. So a cult refers to a marginal, extreme and usually socially harmful form of religion from the point of view of the person choosing this term. So, for example, a cult is a religion that has relatively
few adherents compared to major world religions. Maybe one that enforces strict reverence and obedience of a human leader. Maybe religion that requires adherents to cut off contact with loved ones and the rest of the outside world. Things like that.
Yes. Indeed, the word cult has often been used by more established religious groups against new religious movements, new religious movements that could potentially have harmful attributes but may not. This was a hallmark, of course, of the Christian countercult movement of the late twentieth century, often targeting Christian groups held as heretical by larger Christian organizations, which of course is a tail almost as old as Christianity itself in many respects.
And in some cases what the Christians were saying about those people probably resembled what the Roman Pagans were saying about the early Christians. You know, they meet in secret, and they eat babies alive and stuff.
Yeah, and of course all this bleeds over too into fiction and fantasy. You know, if you play Dungeons and Dragons, you've probably noticed that I haven't checked in the new Monster Manual which just came out. I have a copy of it, but I haven't gotten to the cultists yet. But generally, cultists are an enemy type in Dungeons and Dragons.
And what do you think of in Dungeons and Dragons Within the context of Dungeons and Dragons when you encounter cultists, well, they are just absolute bad guys with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. They're just they're villains that you battle. They see that another fantasy as well.
Usually their own proprietary robes and daggers if you loot them.
Yes, yes, yeah. If you get a mini of a cultists, what do you expect to see a robe and a dagger?
Those are the hallmarks, right, So that's what cult usually means in English today in general usage, and then of course you get the derivative term, you know, like cult films and stuff that are more ironic usages stemming from that usage. Yeah, but in the context of Greco Roman history, the word cult does not have any of those connotations. It doesn't have any negative implications. It does not imply
a marginal or unusual practice either. There were cults of the mainstream gods of the Greek and Roman pantheon, so you'd have the local cult of Apollo, the local cult of Jupiter, the cult of Dionysus, et cetera. So when used by ancient historians, you can think of the word cult as basically just a synonym for the word worship or system of worship. So the cult of Apollo a particular time and place in the Hellenic world would be the system of beliefs, practices, and social structures under which
Apollo was worshiped. In fact, there's a bit of interesting etymology here. The English word cult is derived through several steps, originally from the Latin cultus, which often literally means worship but also means care in the sense of taking care of something or tending to the needs of something. So, for example, agriculture is tending to the needs of the fields. To cultivate means to till a field and preparation for planting.
So the cult of a particular god is the way of tending to the needs of that God in the form of worship, prayer, festivals, rituals, and sacrifices, the latter of which could take many forms, often agricultural products like grain or the meat of livestock, or could have other forms, you know, maybe a monetary donation, purchasing one of the aforementioned products, or things like incense or wine.
So when we think of something like the cult of Cthulhu, we're just talking about taking care of Cthulhu. Yes, looking after Cthulhu, tending to the needs of Cthulhu, which sounds far less frightening and threatening.
That's true, it's a beautiful thing. And in fact this highlights something about Greek and Roman pagan religion that is unfamiliar to practitioners of many of the major world religions today. People who are primarily familiar with religion through Christianity or Islam or Judaism. The most common form of public religion in the Greek and Roman world was essentially a transactional quid pro quo relationship between the person or the local
community and a god. So the person and the community at large performed rituals and sacrifices in honor of the god, and in return, the God was expected to provide blessings to the person. So it was generally understood that, you know, the gods would have power over events that were beyond
human control. They can maybe control how, you know, the weather and agricultural outcomes and diseases and things like that, and so in order to get the God to you know, treat you nice as far as those things beyond human control went, the thing you would do is take care of the God. You would honor their festivals, you would make sacrifices to them, you would do prayers for them. And in that sense, you can really look at it
as kind of a contract. There's a bargain. We do things for you, you do things for us.
Yeah, I think the agriculture comparison is quite apt here to think of it almost as like a knowledge of the unseen world that then you of course have to honor. Like Okay, we've discovered this. We were aware of this relationship between these entities we cannot see, but who are quite powerful over human affairs. And of course we have to cultivate this relationship. We have to make sure that they're happy so we can be happy. This is how the world works.
Right, and this is the main way religion is understood among the ancient Greeks and Romans. That way of approaching religion is fundamentally different from the major religions of the world today, like Christianity and Islam, which place emphasis on belief and on a form of mental submission to God. Mainstream Greek and Roman religion was really there was not a lot of discourse about what you believed or like, you know, did you mentally internally honor and love God?
That That was just not really a common way of approaching it for the ancient Greeks and Romans. Instead, it was did you do the rituals, did you do the prayers? Did you make the sacrifices, did you celebrate the festivals?
Yeah? Yeah, do you know what the gods want? And generally what the gods want are those rituals, are those sacrifices and so forth. It's more transactional.
I was thinking about another difference that came to mind for me as I was reading this Abouden book that we're going to be talking about in the series. I can really only speak to my intimate familiarity with Christianity here in America today. But I think a lot of modern Christians, at least in the United States, would today say that God does not need our worship, like he
is not left wanting if deprived of it. Rather, I think most would say that say something like we worship God because it is right to do so, that God is by nature deserving of worship, and so we his followers are simply acknowledging that. I don't get that impression about Greco Roman pagans. I don't get the feeling they would have thought of it this way. The worship and sacrifices that Greco Roman pagans seem to have given the gods were things that the gods wanted and in fact needed.
And one piece of evidence for this occurred to me when I was reading Bowden's recounting of the myth of Demeter and Persephone, in which Persephone has stolen a way to the underworld. Demeter is left to straw looking for her. Eventually, she can return back to the upper world for part of the year, but has to return to the underworld for another part of the year, and this ends up
relating to understandings of seasonal cycles. But anyway, this myth is related to one of the most important mystery cults in the ancient Mediterranean, the Elusinian Mysteries. More on that later, but there is a part of the myth where Demeter, the Greek goddess of fertile fields and the harbor, is mourning the kidnapping of her daughter into the underworld, and she uses her power over the fields to stop grain
from growing over the earth. And it turns out, at least within a common telling of this tale in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, this is alarming not only to
humans who need to eat the grain. You know that's going to cause famine on earth, but it's also alarming to the gods, because the gods need to receive grain sacrifices from humans, and so Zeus is motivated to do something to fix the situation, and that struck me as very alien to the most common ways of thinking about God that I encounter at least to the twenty first century American. It seems to me that that to the Greco Roman pagans, not only was the worship of the
god's transactional. The gods were not just taking pity on us or doing us a favor by engaging in this deal making. They needed, or at least very much wanted, what we were bringing to the table.
Yes. Yes, very different from the idea of well, God created you. God wants your love, and you are loved by God and therefore like invited into his arms. No, this is more we need that grain, like there's a there's an economy here, and it needs to be maintained.
Yeah, that's right. So anyway, I guess we got into some digressions there. But that's why the word cult should not mislead you.
There.
We're not talking about the you know, the the cultists of dungeons and dragons. It just means a form of worship as understood within the ancient Mediterranean. Now, the other word in a mystery cult is mystery. This is an interesting case too. In common usage today, mystery refers to a sort of puzzle with a hidden solution. So a mystery story is one where the plot is propelled by your desire to have a question answered. There may be a hidden solution, or there may be no known solution
at all. Sometimes a mystery refers to a thing that a question that cannot.
Be answered right unsolved mysteries.
Yes, So this could imply that a mystery cult is a form of worship where the main goal is to solve some kind of information puzzle, to answer a question, or to access a piece of hidden information. That's not
primarily what's going on with mystery cults. While the Greco Roman mystery cults absolutely did have elements of secrecy and privileged information, and we'll get into more of that later as well, the main sense in which the word mystery is used in mystery cults is to refer not to an information puzzle, but to a specific type of secret initiation ritual known in Greek as mysteria, which some somewhat overlaps with other Greek concepts of orgia and teleti. Abouden
mentions these three concepts altogether. They seem to sometimes be used interchangeably, or maybe to refer to related but slightly different things Orgea and teleti. He translates as mystic rights and initiations, So what are the mysteries? The mysteries are these initiation rights, and they could indeed be described as in many ways mysterious. They were often held at night. They were often conducted in secret, so they might take place inside a kind of a protected building outside of
public view. So in the case of the Elusinian mysteries, which will describe in more detail later, I'm sure there would be kind of publicly viewable part of this festival. They would take place outside, people would be able to see it going on, but eventually the festival would progress into an enclosed area inside a kind of temple complex, where things would happen inside and those not initiated into the secret rights would not be able to know what
was going on. Sometimes these rights would also be mysterious in the sense that participants might be blindfolded or hooded so that they couldn't see or understand what was happening. And the rights were often just made up of weird, baffling, frightening, emotionally intense experiences and encounters with the power of the gods.
So there are absolutely things about these rights that we might think of as mysterious and the mystery cults did absolutely have secrets, but the mystery in the name refers to these rights, refers to the strange, powerful, obscure rights of initiation, not so much to an information puzzle mystery in the Sherlock Holmes sense. If that distinction makes sense.
Yes, yes, absolutely. Now I want to add an additional note on the term that you mentioned already, orgia. This term is of course used in the context of religious rights in ancient Greece, and while orgea might entail sexuality, it does not inherently entail sexuality. I was reading a bit about this in a really nice twenty twenty three
piece in The Conversation by Christian George Schwinzel. This is a historian, a French historian of the ancient world, and he writes about this, and he points out that the term that we in common usage today, org orgy in English, didn't come to mean group sexual activity and excessive food and drink till after eighteen hundred CE, especially during the
nineteenth century, and especially in French literature of the time. Schwinzel, however, stresses that this doesn't mean that the ancient Greeks and Romans didn't engage in such activities. They certainly did, they just referred to them by different names. Games Twinzel, who is again himself French, wrote an entire book on the subject.
It's funny how this is one of these terms that has come around, kind of like cult in a way, where I use the word orgy all the time, not to refer to anything sexual. I just mean like a sort of an excessive indulgence in something.
Right right. Well, And in fact, he gets into this a little bit like bringing up the film Babylon for the kind of thing came out that same year, which is like a Hollywood Babylon sort of thing, and he points out that some of that the movie does contain a fictional depiction of a Hollywood orgy in the modern sense. But then one might say, well, this movie is an
orgy for the senses in the metaphorical sense. But again, when you get back to the use of the of the term orgea, it does not necessarily mean any kind of sexual activity was going on. It could, but it doesn't inherently mean that. So it's just another important footnote
about the the usages of the term. The French literature example, you do see works of that in thearing that time period that are portraying the ancient world as engaging in these sorts of rights, that putting more of a you know, an erotic sexual spin on them.
Right, So that's kind of an adaptation. But even in the original Greek understanding that we were just talking about, as explained by Bowden, there is the idea that the orgea or orgea, these mystic rights would have been probably extremely emotionally intense and overwhelming to the senses ancient writers who do, even if they don't describe what the rights themselves were, they often describe the effect of them, which is that they are life changing, an overwhelming experience that
leaves one deeply shaken to the core exactly now.
Again, that book by Hugh Bowden has been one of our key resources here, and Balden does a great job as a great approach to the topic, grounding his initial approach in a discussion of what we might refer to as the mainstream religious ecosystem of the ancient Greco Roman world, and then diving into where the mystery cults fit in
and how they generally differed. And we've already been engaging with some of this, you know, we have to we have to exit our modern understanding of organized, top down religion and get into a different ecosystem, a different way that things worked in order to understand then how the mystery cults are sort of set aside even from that, So we're we're largely dealing with the world before Christianity and set apart from its key characteristics, namely, you know,
any notion of a centrally organized doctrinal religion. So first up, this is this probably seems like an outrageous overstate the obvious, but there were a lot of gods, yes, and by that we don't just mean the standard twelve Olympians set menu that instantly comes to mind. You know your Zeo's here, Apollo and so forth. You know your main Greek gods, the ones that you're going to see in a poster. They're the ones that are frequently utilized in Greek mythology
themed works of fiction. No, I would say, instead, think of an exhaustive cheesecake factory style menu, one that makes you question whether the kitchen can truly deliver on all of these diverse menu items. Only even that is not a perfect technology, because the cheesecake factory is, as I understand it centrally organized. The idea is that any cheesecake factory you go to is going to have the same exhaustive menu.
Right, Yeah, that's right. I'm trying to think of a better analogy, because so you had lots of different gods, and then you had local versions of all these gods. So almost more like how you got McDonald's. But the local McDonald Donald's is a franchise, you know they But that's a little misleading too, because there's top down control like McDonald's Corporates, that's rules about what franchise owners can do.
So I don't know. You imagine you've you've got your basic list of gods, then you've got a lot of other lesser known gods, and then you've also got the local ways or the local cult of each of the main gods that are going to be different than how that god is appreciated and understood in a different place.
That's right. Yeah, Any given community or city, states, city state is going to have its own cast of deities. They determine the course of people's lives. Individual cult practices are going to vary widely across the inherently fractured populations.
A variety that was at times due to actual independence, such as in the post Alexander period where you had a you know, very formerly united and now fractured empire, or during Roman rule, where you know, everything is is wrapped up under Roman rule, but with local religious customs largely left alone. As long as they're not interfering with what the Romans are doing, fine, go ahead and do
whatever you were doing beforehand. So you know, as an example, in ancient Greece, you'd likely find the major Olympian gods, you know, the Big Twelve anywhere you went, as well as the various underworld deities, although there again might be regional differences in the way any of these are treated. But then you'd also have lesser nature deities and especially body of water specific nymphs and the like that would depend on where you were. You know, they're inherently localized.
And then you would also have foreign imported gods that were worshiped locally, you know, likely with some sort of
localized spin as well. So I hope I don't sound insensitive by continuing to compare all of this to food, but it feels like one of the better ways to compare it to the modern world is to think of all the restaurants in your given location, some very widespread but perhaps localized to some degree, highly localized cuisines as well, whatever that you know, the weird local spin on pizza happens to be in your city, that sort of thing, and then also put a bubblegum on it, and then
also imports from other areas that are again likely localized to some degree as well. Now there's here another great question that that about and explores early on in the book, and that is where did these gods come from? And of course this is a huge question, but he does a great job addressing it in brief, you know, for
the purposes of this work. Because naturally one can go in all manner of exhaustive skeptical rationales for the emergence of belief in gods and human beings, as well as more than a few fringe theories leading up to just belief in their pre existence. You know, you just can go all the way and say, well, Zeus is real. That's all there is to it. I'm reminded of the in sort of looking at the spectrum of different ways of thinking about it, though, I'm reminded of that famous
Voltaire quote, which I'll adjust for our purposes here. If gods did not exist, it would be necessary to invent them. And as Balden explains, the gods did prove necessary to our ancestors, though they were not created wholesale by spiritual leaders or religious committees or anything like that. Nobody said, well, we really need some sort of invisible figure to serve this purpose in our culture or life. Now, again, that may seem like an overstatement of the obvious, but I
think it's important to sort of draw that out. So rather, the gods emerged out of a variety of factors in human evolution and cognition, including Balidan points out our predisposition to have strong reactions to the potential presence of a
predator or a corpse. In this I was reminded of one of the great quotes from Cork McCarthy's The Crossing, where he writes, deep in each man is the knowledge that something knows of his existence, Something knows and cannot be fled nor hid from, you know, which is kind of a fancy way of saying it feels like something's
watching you. What is watching you might be a god who knows and Indeed, Balden brings up the ancient tradition of the evil Eye in this which I hadn't quite thought of as a predatory presence before, but that's pretty dead on. You can think of the evil eye roughly as an invisible supernatural entity. You see some ancient traditions regarding the evil Eye from, you know, especially throughout the
Mediterranean world. Jewish superstition in particular holds that it lurks in the world at large, ready to afflict individuals with malign force if provoked, and it's particularly provoked by good luck, by boasting and so forth. So if such an entity is watching you, then what else is watching you? And in fact, we've discussed this on the show. Before you get into traditions like the Hamsa, this is like a
hand eye symbol toward off the evil eye. You get into Gorgonian traditions, you know, some sort of terrifying head to scare away evil and sometimes things like the Haamsa are also connected to the idea of independent supernatural entities. So you're potentially using one unseen entity against another in order to protect.
Yourself, right the way you might use the demon Pazuzu to protect yourself against Lamashtu or something like that exactly.
Yeah. Yeah, we discussed that at length back in October. And it's interesting to you have to connect these ideas like these, at least in part, like the rough forms that would be fleshed out into these traditions of deities might be in some way connected to just our hardwired nature to be on the lookout for things that are watching us and might not you know, might might wish us no harm, but also might be hungry.
Yeah. So this is the kind of thing where, of course it's impossible to know for sure where our original where our religious impulses originally come from. We can only come up with more or less plausible stories about how we think it may have happened. I find that the kind of predator consciousness agent detection theory is a fairly strong candidate in my view. It seems pretty plausible to me.
Right right, you know, at least for some of like the initial broad strokes. But obviously you end up having a lot of additional cultural influences and just basic human needs that get woven into that, things like you know, veneration of ancestors and personal loss. I mean, the list goes on and on.
Yeah, it's kind of like the way religions develop. It's like chess games, you know, It's like they can all start off kind of similar and then branch off into everything is a unique in the end.
Yeah, So the gods bout and stresses are invisible and for the most part unheard. At least, they're not heard through their voices at least by most people, but rather through their actions. But unless these actions actually occur inside a temple devoted to a particular god, it's left up to our interpretation which deity spoke and what they were trying to say, And that interpretation was often a state duty.
Various forms of divination were employed to see what the gods wanted, rather again distinct from simply putting one's faith or trust in a deity, but rather figuring out what they want. And again, what they generally want is appeasement via rights and sacrifices.
Now we've already alluded to the fact that a lot of these sacrifices were agricultural products, but they could take a lot of forms.
Actually, yeah, he brings up treasure from conquest. You know, we just got this bunch of gold in and it seems rvy prisoners, Yeah, and mean prison It seems right to give you some of this gods. Also, how about some meat and the smoke from the burning fat. This of course is another hallmark of you know, of offerings
to the gods. But I found it really interesting what he brings up here, pointing out the bone was often part of the sacrifice that was given to the gods, bone being long lasting, bone being you know, under in a certain way for our purposes here eternal. So you offer the bones up to the eternal gods. While the meat off the bones, well, that's that's not going to last in neither a week, and so that's why we will feast on that, and we will offer the bones to the gods.
Yeah, so you'd have a common way of dividing up the animal sacrifice so that, yeah, the humans eat the meat and the bones and the fat are burned for the gods. And one way a bout in frames this which I thought was interesting, is it's kind of a way for the humans and the gods to enjoy altogether. It's a shared festival. So we get the meat and the gods get to enjoy the smoke rising up from the burned bones and fat, and the organs that that's smoke is rising up into the air where it will
be enjoyed by the gods. And this point of view, by the way, is not unique to Greek and Roman paganism. You find this, for example, in the Hebrew Bible. There are multiple passages in the books of I think Exodus and Leviticus that talk about the burnt offering being a pleasing aroma to the Lord. The smoke rises up and God enjoys the smell.
Yeah, yeah, I also really liked the way about and discussed this here, the idea that when these rites were held, the gods were invited and present, they were enjoying the food alongside us and other festivities as well, like the
gods were present there. And of course I guess it's worth noting that you see echoes of this, you know, throughout other organized religions, like even today in modern Christian churches you may hear form of like well, when you know, when we gather together and worship God, God is present, at least in a spiritual.
Sense, right, Yeah, that's right. Though I do get the feeling. There's a difference in that a lot of Christians today, I would say probably feel they enjoy a more intimate connection with God as a person. Then you get from the idea of at least the public transactional forms of Greco Roman paganism.
Yeah, and I guess it's also worth noting that in like a lot of modern Christian traditions, is the idea that like God is always with you, He's always there watching what you're doing. You can always speak to him, even if you don't necessarily hear him speak back to you. And it's and to put that, at least some of the ways it's described in other monotheistic religions. Is it like God is closer than your own breath. Yeah, but another place, and this is perhaps an interesting exams ample.
And then it's drawing on, you know, so called pagan religions. In its fictional treatment, you get into these accusations of the witch's Sabbath, where witches are gathering together and having their big festival, and then who shows up, Oh, it's the hornet goat himself. It's Satan who appears physically, which you know kind of like matches up to a limited degree with some of these ancient Greco Roman ideas that
when you celebrate the gods. When you make offerings to the gods, the gods may appear, though.
In the public festival. I mean, Bouten very much makes the point that, in his view, in the public festivals, that appearance would be indirect like that it would just be the understanding there would be like a cult statue of the God there, and there would be the understanding that by making the sacrifice, you're kind of sharing a
meal with the gods. But it's very much, at least as this book argues, very much not the feeling with the public religions, the transactional ones, that God's presence is felt intimately, because that's kind of the difference that makes the mystery cults so appealing. That's when you actually have what feels like a more direct encounter with the presence of the God.
Yes, this is this is this is a really good distinction to make. Yes, So the modern Christian Church example, a God is spiritually present, the totally made up which is Sabbath example, the divine or infernal force is physically present. And in the Greco Roman examples we're discussing here, according to Bowden, the gods are still very much invisible we
don't see them, we don't hear them. But again, their presence is known not by anything they're doing, you know, they're at the festivities, but what they are doing in the world at large that affects humans, causing natural disasters and so forth, affecting the crops and so.
Forth, or communicating through divination maybe exactly, you know, Apollo might communicate through his priestess at Delphi or something. But yeah, like you said, largely in affecting the outcomes of events beyond our control.
Yeah, so they were invisible, but that doesn't mean they were absent. They were thought to be very present in human affairs, and it came when it came time to engage in these special feats and sacrifices, they were understood to be present, but were invisible. And when I say they're present, though, we should also point out there would be likenesses as well, So there would be of statues, idols and whatnot carried through the streets or situated within
a temple. At any rate, these various cults, as we've been discussing, engaged in activities that were concerned with maintaining proper relations with the gods and about and indicates you can roughly divide such rights into two modes of religiosity, imagistic and doctrinal. So the doctrinal is more like regular low key maintenance. So you know, you bring your car in, you know, every for so many miles whatever the sticker
tells you. It's generally what, you know, a certain amount of time or certain amount of miles, bring it in, get some low key maintenance, and that's all you really need to do. And you can also compare this, he points out to modern weekly Christian religious services. You know, like you're going to go. It's not going to necessarily knock your socks off, but it's you know about regularly engaging in the top down information and rights and values of a given religion. Yeah.
He describes the doctrinal approach to religion as one in which the rituals are frequent, low intensity, and usually also they have the element of being semantically clear, like their meaning is well explained and commonly understood.
Right, And he points out that some of the various ancient examples of like the city states carrying out rituals on a regular basis, these might fall under that classification. And I was also wondering, well, maybe it would. Also, you could also throw in like minor acts of household or personal protective right though I guess that would violate the general top down organization model involved with the doctrinal. Now, coming back to the imagistic, this is more important to
our discussion of mystery cults. This is the infrequent, intense, and often nonverbal. It is a high key experience engaging about and points out episodic or flash bulb memory rather than semantic memory. So we're talking high levels of arousal, an experience, a roller coaster ride. And while this latter classification is not unique to the nature of mystery cults, it does seem to be a defining factor as we'll
be exploring. So you're talking about engaging in a just jaw dropping experience of the gods and or the unseen world of these ancient religions.
Right. So, under this system of classification, the imagistic is something that happens rarely, is extremely emotionally intense and powerful, leaves a lasting memory, and often is not clearly explained and is left for the person experiencing it to figure out what it means by themselves exactly. Now, one of the things that's interesting in the book when he brings up these concepts of these concepts from the anthropology of religion doctrinal religions versus imagistic ones, is that they seem
to often arise in different systems of social organization. That doctrinal religions are more common in large, large social groupings, maybe in say cities or towns, you know, places where there are lots of people gathered together, and places that tend to be more socially hierarchical, where you've got levels of authority, whereas more often we find imagistic forms of religion in people that live in smaller groups, smaller social
systems of or organization, that are less hierarchical, more egalitarian. And one can kind of think of reasons that may be the case, Like it just occurred to me that you know, in smaller societies with less hierarchy, you know, you say you're living in a in a tribe of you know, a few dozen people instead of in a in a big city full of strangers, A lot more of your existence is probably governed by individual relationships between people, and that might affect like how the meaning of experience
needs to be managed. There's maybe a lot more room for ambiguity and trying to understand the uh, you know, what life means? What was the meaning of a powerful emotional experience you had that has something to do with your role in this society and and you're you're you know,
attaining of age within it and things like that. Versus in a big culture, like say you live in a in a city state with a lot of strangers around, there is a lot less social trust and a lot less based on individual relationships that will be maintained over time. You're going to be doing economic transactions with strangers and things like that, and thus you really might need you might get more comfort from the idea of a system of clearly explained rules. You know, does that make sense?
Like that you want to kind of legal doctrine there where things are explained and you don't have to worry about not understanding what the religious experience means anyway. So there's that kind of distinction about where you find these different modes of religion most often. But it's not a strict rule here because clearly one of the things that's going to come up in this book is that while you've got these public forms of ancient cults in the
Greco Roman world that are. You know, you can argue about which category they fit better in, but they probably fit better into the doctrinal version. You know, they're more about kind of clearly explained relationships. They're more kind of low intensity than high intensity. So you've got those going on in the Ancient City States. But then you also have this parallel form of religion, which are the mystery cults, which I think you can very much argue are more
like the imagistic religions. They are based on these rights that are powerful, extreme emotional experiences that people not only are not allowed to fully explain to people who have not been initiated, they probably, as Bouten argues, could not explain if they tried. So you've essentially got both forms within the same general culture, within the same time and place.
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, this is the basic concept of the mystery cult. This is the religious ecosystem in which you will find it. And yeah, in the following episode or episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, we're going to dig in a little deeper and look at some of these specific examples of mystery cults, what we think they were up to, what is written and known, what is presumed it should be a fun ride, a high intensity ride. Oh no, it'll be low key.
It'll be low key, I'm kidding, but hopefully of high interest, yes, low key of high interest, yes, But we're not going to subject to you to like blindfolded beatings and ritual mockery and things like that like you might get on the way to the Lucinian Mystery.
Yeah, or on other podcasts, other podcasts maybe ended that, but that's not really our vibe here. All right, Well, we hope that you'll join us in those subsequent episodes, so the next one should come out the following Tuesday. In the meantime, though, we'd love to hear from you if you have any feedback, personal experience, and so forth regarding what we've talked about already right in, we'd love
to hear from you. A reminder of the stuff. To Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, though on Wednesdays we do a short form episode, and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. If you want to follow us on social media, Well, we're on different social medias. Whatever you use, you may find us, and you know,
we'll just leave the mystery there. We're probably there. If you're looking for us on Instagram, we're stvy and podcast and if you use letterboxed and you want to keep up with Weird House Cinema, we're Weird House on there.
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