Listener Mail: Moa Money, Moa Problems

the mail bought Carney. That's right. Uh, you know, Carney has been making it through this whole pandemic thing as well. We we were tempted to terminate his functions as a cost cutting measure, but we found other ways to to cut back instead. So, uh, without further ado, let's let's bring Carney out. Now. One thing we might want to make clear to the audience is that now we cannot look at Carney because if we do, we will be petrified and turned to stone. That's one of the cost

cutting measures. They've had a safety feature too removed. Uh, so we have to we have to kind of keep our backs turned and use some some mirror kung fu if we want to get the messages from him. But we're all doing what we gotta do. Yeah. I don't know why he had the Gorgonian protocol installed in his systems,

but it's activated now, so we're stuck with it. And it looks like this first batch of mail that Carney's handing us is in response to our episodes about the Moa of New Zealand, the Great uh, the Great Rattite Cornu Copia. That we got a lot of great listener mail about this stuff. I've noticed something People from New Zealand really like talking about being from New Zealand. Well, you know I would too if I was from New Zealand. It's pretty cool place. Yeah, a lot of it seems

to be Middle Earth related. I wonder if the same kind of responses would have happened before the Peter Jackson movies. But uh, but yeah, maybe let's die right in on responses to the MOA, Robert, do you want to read this message from THEO? Sure? THEO rights in and says, hi, guys, I absolutely loved both of the MOA episodes. I'm a Canadian backpacker currently in New Zealand, and I love listening to your podcast while I'm at work picking raspberries. Essential work,

even during the lockdown. I especially loved learning about the extinction and I intend to go on a research rabbit hole about mica rizal networks in New Zealand forests. I hope you do more episodes about New Zealand in the future. I would love to learn more about Maori agriculture and the plants they brought with him. I had to rush through a fascinatating exhibit in Auckland War Memorial Museum about

the cabbage tree. Apparently there are many uh cultivars of and many uses of this species, and I would love to hear about them. We've been in lockdown since March, so I really appreciate your podcast. It helps keep me entertained in saying cheers THEO. Thanks for getting in touch THEO. So this next message come was from someone who has just identified as the letter S. I don't know what that stands for, but S really seemed to enjoy the MOA episodes, but wanted to add a fact that they

think we didn't stress enough, which is quote. Although museum MOA skeletons were set erect. More recent science indicates that they were not so, And this is an interesting point. S is correct about this. Like the oldest museum reconstructions of the moa. You you might see these old pictures of how they were posed. They would have the neck

vertebrae extending straight up into the air off the body. Uh. And I was reading about the centerpiece hosted by the Auckland Museum, actually the same museum that THEO mentioned, which explains that these earliest museum exhibits of MOA skeletons were based on the posture imagined by the British paleontologist Richard Owen,

who we talked about in the MOA episodes. But I think it was beginning around the nineteen eighties most museum displays were corrected to show what would have been a more common posture when the moa is just, you know, not reaching up at something, but just walking around ound. And that would be not with the neck it's extended straight up from the body, but kind of curved with

an S shape with respect to the body. Yeah. I remember reading about this as we prepared for those episodes, and I think we mainly just ended up focusing more on just sort of the the undeniably weird and amazing things about the MOA without really getting into this issue. But but we see this in other areas of paleontology

as well. We've discussed it in the context of the rannosaurs Rex, for instance, where earlier um attempts to put together the bones of the t rex gave it a much more erect posture, and we've corrected over time for for what is also a more horizontal presentation with the tail outstretched behind it for balance. Uh. And one sees

other similar things with other prehistoric creatures as well. Uh, the initial way we put them together is not necessarily where we are today in our understanding of how they probably um, you know, stood and held themselves and moved around. Yeah, there's a whole lot actually that we're not told explicitly by bones or bi fossil remains, and that can be

a very interesting to to play with. Variations on of course, one is posture how the body would have stood and what would be the you know, normal ways of arranging the neck and the arms and all that kind of thing in the tail. But another thing, of course is soft tissue. This is actually debate with the MOA itself is like what kind of soft tissue did it have? Was it a plump bird, was it a skinnier bird? Um. This is an interesting issue that's often hotly debated in

the paleo art world. How to render the sort of soft, fleshy tissues of dinosaurs and other extinct animals that we only now know by their bones. Yeah, exactly, and then also comes into play with toy dinosaurs. Yeah, you can instantly tell if if if a toy dinosaur is based on these these outdated understandings of of dinosaur posture, or they're more recent. All right, here's another one related to the MOA. This one comes to us from Nathan. Hey, Robert,

and Joe. I just listened to your recent episode of Rise of the Moa, and you were talking about large birds that could kill humans. In my mind automatically went to a prehistoric rattite that roamed parts of North America around the same time as the saber tooth tiger called Titanus Wallery. Now, this is, by the way, you can look up images of this. This is a terror bird often just referred to as Titanus. Uh. And indeed, uh create the terror birds are are amazing to look at. Anyway,

Nathan continues. They roamed throughout the Lower USA and possibly into South America two to five million years ago. They stood about two point five meters tall and had great speed, which people think was their main hunting strategy, along with their sharp beak. This bird has always interested me, uh and thought you all could compare other extinct species to this one. Thanks for your time, Nathan, I've always wanted

to be eaten by a bird. Really Now, I think we mentioned this in the in the mo O episodes, but you actually have done episodes about the terror birds in the past, right did you do them back when with Julie years ago? Ah? That sounds right. I don't. I know I've read about them before, but I honestly can't remember if we covered them at all. Uh, certainly so the kind of topic we could return to. Yeah, because they're they're they're totally fascinating, and there's the North

American connection here. I mean, you'll find examples of them. You'll find fossil evidence of this creature in Florida um, which, by the way, it always it always kind of amazes me where there'll be some sort of there will be a fossil like this, and you'll think this should be this should be the fossil of Florida, right, this should be the state fossil. But if I'm not mistaken, the state fossil of Florida is um is a coral. So sometimes they're they're less exciting, Like Georgia has a pretty

good one. We have a cretaceous sharp tooth that is our state fossil. Yeah, and you know, it varies from state to state. Some have really cool ones. Uh. Some have multiple ones, like uh, Kansas has both a taranodon and a tylosaurus, so they have like two awesome creatures. Meanwhile, Kentucky it's um a brachiopod. It's you know, it's just

like little shells. And not to say these aren't you know, important fossil finds, but in terms of like the kind of thing you might plaster on the side of a U haul truck or put on a license plate, you know, I think he can jazz it up a little bit. I am at least encouraged that apparently every state acknowledges the existence of fossils. Yeah, that is a good sign. None of them. Have um have taken him back yet? Right? Um? But yeah, they're they're they're tons of great ones. Nevada,

you guys have an ichtheosar. You know. New New Jersey has a duckbill dinosaur um. New York has a c scorpion. You know. It's a wonderful list, you know. I recommend checking it out. Find out what your state fossil is, and if it's disappointing, fight for it. You know, like if you're if you're if you live in for Gina and your state fossil is a scallop, you should you should be a little mad about that. You should fight for something maybe a little more robust, something with with

claws and teeth, if you can. I think Tennessee state fossil is a replica of Noah's ark. Um. No, but it is. I'm looking it up now. It is a cretaceous bivalve. So maybe, well, I don't know. I feel like Tennessee might be better off if they had an exciting fossil as there uh as their state fossil. Uh you know, something that would maybe get people more excited about the prospect, you know, like South Carolina it's the Colombian mammoth for for crying out loud. I know you're joking.

I know you believe that all fossils are exciting. They are, they are all exciting. But in terms of say, animating the kids, I think maybe it pays to have something a little a little you know, more action toothier. Yeah. Now I will say Arizona State fossil is. Of course, the pet is petrified wood from the petrified forest, which maybe is not that exciting the children, but I think that one's pretty exciting. So Arizona, you still get credit

for a non animal fossil. Al Right, maybe I'm gonna skip ahead to this uh message we got from Tabitha about the MOA episodes. I thought this was was really great, so Tabitha writes, Hi, Robert and Joe, I'm a long time Kiwi listener, and yes we love being called Kiwi's. Who wouldn't want to be named after a furry football with the largest egg body ratio of any animal? I

did not know that. Oh yeah, I had kind of forgotten about this, but yeah, if you know, there's some some wonderful illustrations of just how much space inside the Kiwi's body, like a mature egg takes up before it is before it leaves the body cavity. Oh, this is kind of like the epic pooping of the sloth that we talked about in the in the Star Wars episode recently, right where it's like its body way is poop it sometimes.

But anyway, sorry, tab Tabitha goes on. She says, love your moa episode, And I thought i'd write and share moa facts and some insight on the history and ecology of and oh, I'm sorry. This is the word I believe for for New Zealand, and I don't know how to pronounce it. I believe it's a o t a roa.

That's my best try. A reason for the rapidity of the extinction of large bird species in New Zealand, the moa and other birds like adds a, bill, swans and geese is that New Zealand is lacking in plant species that are edible to humans. There are some fruit producing plants we have native BlackBerry with even worse thorns, but few plants that produce a lot of starch without tremendous effort, and obviously none that have been domesticated to enhance yields.

The Maori came to New Zealand with advanced farming skills, but the crops they brought with them from Polynesia are tropical. Tarot is a staple crop across the Pacific, but can only be grown in the very northern tip of New Zealand. Some lily kumara or sweet potato, is a hugely important traditional Maori staple, but can only be grown in the

top half of the North Island. In the few hundred years it took to learn how to process and exploit the few plant species that do provide food, the ancestral Maori had little choice but to rely on hunting and fishing to survive. In midden pits in the coastal South Island. There's a distinct change in food remains over time from mostly bird bones to fish and seal bones, which tracks the extinction of moa and other large birds. I thought this was so interesting um she goes on as the

major large herbivore in New Zealand. The moa was incredibly important to the ecology of the islands. Moa and other large birds distributed seeds which cannot pass through the guts of mammals. In fact, I read an article the other day, saying they ate and distributed fungi, which is essential to the health of southern beech forest. I think we talked about this in the second part of our MOA episode this I believe this came in after the first part. But she goes on the fungi which isn't retained in

the guts of deer and pigs which browsed the forest. Today, many niches left open by extinction have been filled by introduced mammals in this country, but MOA's role in keeping forests healthy is irreplaceable because they were one of the only browsing mega fauna that is a bird. The native forests evolved with bird morphology, and introduced ungulates just can't do the same things with their guts. I'll finish on

my favorite moa ecological fact. Many native trees have two phases of growth, a juvenile stage and an adult stage. Juvenile stages tend to have small or spiky and tough leaves and grow in spind lee unappetizing bush shapes. Once they reach a certain height that moa can't reach, and this would be three to four meters, they spread out and the leaves change shape, becoming broader to catch more sunlight with out being munched on. The most dramatic example of this is the lance would or the horo aca

um and Uh. Here she she attaches an image for us to look at of a juvenile versus an adult lance would and and it as it is, as Tabitha says, like, the juvenile looks basically inedible. It looks like this kind of spiky, nasty bush thing. But then once it gets tall enough to leave, spread out and become something that looks more like a traditional tree. Yeah, that's fascinating because really,

in in terms of evolutionary time, the moa is barely gone. Uh. You know, all these plants that would have uh you know, thrived alongside it still have their defenses in place. Yeah, that's wonderful. It's like the so so many of the other species of New Zealand are still adapted as if the moa should be there, they're just not. So it's like this link in the chain is missing. Uh. And this is reflected in the rest of Tabitha's email. She says, sorry,

this gots along. I'm sure you've got emails from every KeyWe listener you have, because we're desk it for attention and extraordinarily bored at the moment um. The gist is bring moa back if we can. I think there's still a place for them here. Native biomes still cover twenty three of New Zealand, and a lot of us are trying hard to increase that and decrease introduced pests. If I could see a moa in my lifetime, I would

die happy. I'd also like to bring back the hostas eagle, but that's a harder sell, especially to all the sheep farmers. Thanks for doing what you do, Keep safe, keep well, and keep learning. Much love from aote aroa Tabitha. All right, well, speaking of bringing the moa back. Uh. This next email gets into this a little bit as well. This comes to us from James. Dear, Robert and Joe. I'm a

longtime listener, first time writer. I just finished your two part series on the moa, which was totally awesome and I enjoyed it immensely. However, is a kiwi. I want to give you two pieces of information you might enjoy. Number One, we don't mind being called kiwi's at all. We describe ourselves thusly on the Red the National Rugby League team is called the Kiwi's Number two. We may not need to bring back the MOA at all. There are rumors that they may still survive in the unexplored

reaches of New Zealand, South Island's Alps and Fiordland. That's how it's spelled. UH. It's spelled f I O R D l A n d in. Patty Freeney, republican of the Bailey Hotel near author's past, reported sighting Amoa while tramping in the Alps. He supplied a blurry photo of what is almost certainly a flightless large flightless birds he attached. The story made national headlines, with believers launching further search parties and two cries arguing it must have been an

emu escaped from a zoo. The closest zoo is in christ Church, some three hours drive away. UH. Patty Freeney passed in two thousand twelve, so we may never know if he was being genuine or looking to advertise his hotel or what. UH includes a link to the web story with more details, and then James finishes up. Keep up the great work. I listen to your podcast every week. My favorite is probably the Mind Flavor episode I have one tattooed on my shoulder, but the moa is a

close second. You're the best, James. Oh thanks James. Now I looked up this picture. I don't know where this ranks on the Patterson Gimblin scale. I'm gonna say I'm not convinced. I am not convinced that there is a living moa. It seems highly doubtful to me. But there is a blurry, vaguely S shaped blob in the middle of this photo. Well, you know, I have to um,

I have to say. This is kind of a staple of of seeing some sort of crypted or some sort of uh, you know, animal that's largely believed to be extinct in the wild. And it's easy to say, oh, well that's barely anything. That's such a horrible photo. But if you look around that there are some Facebook groups now that are that that exists solely to sell librate bad nature photography, and you quickly realize that no, this

is this seems likely. You know, you see something really cool uh and unexpected uh, and it's fleeting, and then you rush to take a picture of it, and chances are you're an amateur or even if you know a little bit of what you're doing. You're you're you're rushed, and you have to get a picture of the thing as it is leaving your site. You may end up taking a terrible photo of it that does not reflect, um,

the degree of detail that you yourself actually saw. Uh. For instance, I was recently walking in a cemetery uh in the Atlanta area and got to see some wild turkeys roman about which you know, wild turkeys. They're they're not MOA's by any stretch, but they're still really cool. And there are rare enough sighting uh you know, in in um in the Atlanta area. So I was excited about it. UH, watched them in and then I realized, oh, I should try and get a picture. So I busted

out my phone and took just a terrible picture. Maybe not quite as vague as the US, but still um. You know, if I was trying to make a case for having seen a you know, a prehistoric turkey, I would have really had an uphill battle. Now that being said, based on what we were reading in researching our MOA episodes, it seems like the experts are very doubtful that there are any moa at large in the world. Yeah, that

was my impression as well. And and to be fair, I think James is sort of joking in and bringing up this example. I'm not saying like he's trying to pass off something that seems very unlikely as as being real. But uh, yeah, I don't think there's any serious expert opinion from you know, local zoologists or whatever that would think that MOA's are still out there roaming around New Zealand. Yeah, but still, I mean, obviously I wish it were the case.

And it's kind of the curious nature of alleged cryptid sightings. And you know, much like conspiracy theory really is that by expressing the idea that it might be, you make it a little more believable, you know, you give it provides something for for us to latch onto, sometimes in a way that is maybe hopeful, but also sometimes in

a way that is maybe counterproductive. Sure, I mean, there are other ways that you could imagine actually seeing a moa in New Zealand, and that would be the extinction. I'm interested that we you know, one of the things we talked about in the episode was I'm not sure exactly what the what the best argument would be for bringing back an extinct animal like the moa, but I

don't know. Tabitha kind of made the case like it's an important part of New Zealand ecology and a lot of the other organisms that are you know, had their evolutions shaped around the presence of the moa are still there. So bringing back the moa in a way would would sort of breathe life back into the native New Zealand ecosystem. Yeah,

we discussed in those episodes. They're what scientists think their role probably was in a spreading spores for instance, And so you know, you take out a keystone species like the moa, and you know that there they are missed. They are missed by the uh the various plants, animals and uh fun guy that depended on them. So I think, yeah, that's probably the avenue where you can make the best argument for them rather than just it would be cool if they were here. Now, can we also get the

terror birds back? Well? I hope, so, I hope. So all right, on that note, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll jump into some more listener mail and we'll talk about soap than All right, we're back, all right. This next message comes to us from our listener Carl. It was in reference to the episode about soap, which was the last episode

of our other podcast, Invention. Uh. Carl says, Dear Robert and Joe, just to let you know, an avid fan of your podcasts, but regrettably don't let you know much because I'm usually gardening, lawnmowing, debt cleaning, or just walking. But you make those other mindless tasks fly by and I get work done, exercise, edification, and amusement as painlessly

as possible. So thank you. First point, I think the soap episode is appropriately the last episode of Invention, because I'm convinced that soap was more of a discovery than an invention. It's not hard to imagine that roasting meat over a wood fire with rain afterwards often produced soap like substances that the ancients found would clean fats off of implements, clothes, skin, et cetera. By the way, I'm bummed about discontinuing Invention as such, but I understand that

could happen, and it's good to hear. You'll keep the invention spirit and stuff to blow your mind. Uh. And then a little bit later in his message, He says, I thought the the fist bump versus handshake thing was funny with regard to passing the piece. Remember we talked about how uh in churches, Uh, there there's this. Many churches have a tradition of shaking hands. The people shake hands with each other and they you know, they say peace or the peace of the Lord be with you

or something. Um. And we were discussing a study that found that a fist bump actually transmits many fewer infectious agents than a handshake does. Uh. And so Carl says, here in my church, which is Eastern Orthodox, we have a ritual called the Right of Forgiveness, where we hug and kiss each other while forgiving them and asking for their forgiveness in turn. To start off, Lent, I guess you could say we take full advantage of our immune systems.

Thanks for one of the best podcasts going, Carl. Oh, well, thank you, Carl. That's that's very kind. But yeah, this does raise the uh, you know the reality that when it comes to various greetings, uh and and so forth. I mean, they're gonna be cultural variations. You know, some in some cultures hugging or or kissing is is more of the standard mode of greeting, and so perhaps it's it's you know, it's more more challenging to make those

changes in those cultures. And I'll just add one other message we got from a listener named Chris who also talked about a guest preacher at his church one time who had a sense of humor. And Chris says that the guest preacher encouraged the people in the church to greet each other with what the preacher called holy knuckles, and that was the fist bump instead of the handshake.

I don't know if this was for a reason of of sanitation or whatever, or of you know, hygiene, but maybe, well that's perfect, right, because you can take a sharpie and you can write h O L Y on your knuckles before you go in there for the bump, right, like Robert Mitchum in the Night of the Hunter. Night of the Hunter is a fantastic movie. By the way, Robert Mitchum is a force of nature in it. Oh wow, Yeah, that's one that I've remarkably never seen. I've never seen that.

I've never seen cape fear, So I should I should really, uh what fill in those holes as they say, oh on movie crush. Uh. Yeah, they're always talking about whole filling. I guess I have less than opinion about Cape Fear. Night of the Hunter is a horrifying movie. It feels like dangerous and scary ahead of its time. Robert Mitchum plays this, Uh, this psychotic, murderous traveling preacher. It's yeah, he's he's powerful. All right. Here's another one. This comes

to us from Steve. Dear Robert and Joe. Happy belated tenth anniversary. I hope this that boy that seems like it was a long time ago, that was in a different time and as no meaning anymore. Yeah, I hope this finds you both in good spirits and good health. Thank you so much for years of entertainment, education and mind blowing content. You've managed to make my hour commute one of the highlights of my day for the past seven years, and I greatly appreciate your thoughtful nuance and

insightful treatments of fascinating and often overlooked topics. I'm a general surgeon in Los Angeles, and in the operating room we take turns on choosing we listened to during surgery. Categories range from classical our scrub text pick to Death Metal by a seventy year old enthusiologist, and I usually put on an episode of stuff to blow your mind or invention. I find that the mental engagement actually helps me stay relaxed and focused on the task at hand,

rather than distract me. At first, the staff roll their eyes at me, but most have come around and themselves became big fans of your show. It always sparks interesting discussions and debates, and I also like that it never gets too loud to hear important communication, unlike Dr Death

Metals music. Things are definitely becoming crazy with the COVID patients flooding the hospitals, but we are managing just find so far, most m Angelino's seem to be taking social distancing very seriously, and our much maligned sprawl is finally working to our advantage. Thank you for helping disseminate accurate and helpful information regarding this challenging disease. It goes an incredibly long way to helping us minimize or at least

slow the spread. Although it's not the kind of content you would usually cover, it is a true public service that you have done one small thing in the COVID episode, though Joe refers to the mortality rate of the flu as point zero one percent. Probably just a slip of the tongue, but it is important to realize it is

zero point one percent, still much lower than COVID. Well, I didn't realize I said that, but if indeed I did, thank you so much for that correction, Steve so so, Steve continues, I've probably come up with a couple hundred other comments on topics you've covered over the years, but I'll keep it down to two that's stuck in my head. Number one. Regarding the Band or Snatch episode, I always thought that the demon Packs is actually you, me, us,

the viewer player. Packs is described as the thief of destiny, and by making the choices for the protagonist, we decide his fate slash steal his destiny. The scene where Stefan is communicating with the viewer through his computer is the aha moment in which he realizes someone has taken over his ability to make his own decisions and choose his own adventure. Or maybe Packs is Netflix. I think that's

a strong uh reading of it. Certainly, at least one of the beautiful things about Bandersnatch, though, is that depending on exactly how you make your way through the plot, some of those elements are stressed more than others. Um. I think the second time I watched it, I was I think I was able to avoid like the really overt netflix uh integration stuff, which I liked more. Um. But now I'm forgetting I probably need to take a

third John through there, just to be sure. I just wanted to bring up also this this came up in an episode since we did the Bandersnatch thing, but in response to Steve, there is an actual monster that is known in some ways as the Thief of Destiny, and it's the monster un Zoo, who's a sort of bad god or kind of winged monster thing from many ancient

Mesopotamian religions and and on. Zoo goes in and steals the tablets of Destiny from the King of Gods, and I believe somebody has to go punish him and get them back. It might beat an inerta or something, all right, and then he moves on to number two. In your x ray episode of Invention, I think Robert made a comment suggesting that bullets have to be removed from the body.

This is actually not usually the case unless the bullet is near certain vital structures, eroding into a blood vessel, bowl, etcetera, and is a common misconception that leads to many angry trauma patients insisting that they need surgery. Digging around to remove a stray bullet often causes more damage than it's worth, and the bullet is usually sterile due to the high temperature.

President Garfield died of sepsis due to wound infection following many painful, uh likely misguided attempts to remove the bullet fragments, and may have survived otherwise with basic wound care. UH. This is this is a great point, if memory serves. I think I I brought that up because I was kind of like saying, hey, if there was a bullet in your body and you had to get it out, um, you know, how would you go about that properly before

the age of X ray. So I didn't mean to imply that that bullets always need to come out of the body, because I mean, just in life, you occasionally run into somebody who you know will anecdotically mentioned how they still have a bullet or fragment of a bullet in their body stemming from some old injury. Yeah, totally. Uh. And what Steve says about President Garfield here James Garfield, who is sometimes said to have been killed by an assassin's bullet. He was shot while he was in office,

but it took him. I don't remember how long it was, like a month or more after that to die. And yeah, Steve's exactly right that like the surgeons kept going in and digging around in him, they were using unsanitary methods, and his wound got infected and he died. So he was probably killed more by the medical intervention than by the bullet. So Steve closes out here and says, thank you again for all the wonderful content you've created over the years, and I look forward to the next kin,

hopefully not from all from your closet. Please stay curious and safe. All the best, Steve l Well, thank you, Steve. As of this recording, we are both still in our closets. Um one day, hopefully that will change. Okay, Next, let's turn to some messages we got in response to our episode about The Fly, the Cronenberg movie, The King of

Bad Feelings and Reaching into the Slime. Uh, so uh so multiple listeners got in touch to correct us about something we said uh in the episode, which is that we were talking about before the Cronenberg version of the movie. There was the original The Fly from nineteen fifty eight, and we talked about the fact that Vincent Price was in the movie. But I think we both misremembered him as the actor who played the scientist who creates the telepods and gets turned into a fly, and that's not

the case. He was in the movie, but he played the scientist's brother, so that was it was not Vincent Price in the Spider's web saying help me, help me. We got a number of messages about this so much. Apologies to the to the career of Vincent Price. Yes, though really it does underline just how great again, just

how great a remake Cronenberg's The Fly is. Uh No, No, I mean, not only is it the one that we tend to remember and we tend to look back on, but you know, why is Vincent Price not playing Like why is the main character in the original Fly? Uh? And you know the story as well that inspired it. Why why are they not the ones going on this uh this crazy um? Uh? You know metamorphosis, uh infused journey. Why are they? Why is our main character outside of it?

Uh So? I think that was a brilliant change on the part of Cronenberg and the other writers involved in the remake. Yeah, I'd agree with that. But so this next pair of messages, I'm going to sort of do them together because they get at the same thing. This came from two listeners, Linda and Fernando, who got in touch with us after the episode about The Fly to respond to us a series of comments we made about

the effectiveness of Placebo's and uh So. Fernando rites, Hello, guys, longtime listener, first time caller, truly enjoyed the show, and so forth. I couldn't pass on an opportunity to blow you guys minds. You guys minds. Uh. In the episode when you reviewed Cronenberg's The Fly, you mentioned in passing the Placebo Effect you were wondering if somebody needed to believe in the supposed medicine for the placebo effect to work, or whether simply believing in the placebo effect itself could

do the trick. The surprising responses apparently neither. I was recently a few months ago listening to another science podcast, and I think the pod he gives a couple of options, but I think the one he's talking about his NPRS Hidden Brain. Yeah, and Fernando continues, and in a show about the placebo, they interviewed a lady who had suffered from chronic pain for many years and tried different medicines

and technique still little or no effect. She was enrolled in a study of the placebo effect, and for the first time, her pain subsided. She was placed in the placebo group, of course, but the thing is, she was told she was in that group. She knew she was taking placebos and was not expecting to get better, but she did. Nevertheless, Anyway, I thought you'd enjoy that little tidbit. Please keep up the good work. Uh. I can't really express how pleasurable and provocative it is for me to

intrude on your conversations. Cheers Fernando and then uh. Linda writes in about the same subject, attributing it to an episode of NPRS Hidden Brain, where she adds an element of explanation for the outcome. Linda writes, the takeaway was that the doctor who prescribed the placebo, who told her it was just a sugar pill, was kind and attentive and seemed to really care, and somehow that was what

made the placebo work for her. Wondering what you guys might think of this angle of looking at placebo's and medicine in general. I wonder if people like my elderly mother in chronic pain and who have been addicted to opiates could be provided a placebo in place of their pain meds in order to break the addiction, if the doctor was nice enough. Uh and so so thanks for

getting in touch, Fernando and Linda. I don't know the answer to that question, Linda, but it is very interesting to consider how a placebo could work when somebody knows it's a placebo, and whether the doctor's presence has something to do with it. So obviously it could be reduction in pain due to just positive social interaction and attention, you know, like feeling loved, feeling appreciated, feeling taken care

of can in some ways make you feel better. There can also, I think, be aspects you know, we've talked about this on the show before, aspects of a relief that you feel due to reassurance from a knowledgeable authority and I know I've talked about the experience of going to a doctor with a complaint, uh, you know, being worried about some kind of like feeling in the body, and then being told that it's nothing, that is fine,

and then the feeling goes away. It's just like having a knowledgeable doctor say no, I don't see anything wrong. It makes the original complaint just disappear. But then finally, I was wondering about the idea of um, sort of a double placebo effect, Like placebos sometimes work, presumably because people expect them to work. And if you're aware of this fact, could you also expect the placebo to quote work, making even a known placebo effective as a placebo, Like

you get a placebo from expecting the placebo effect. Yeah, I guess so it's sounds possible. I also, like, you know what you mentioned about the you know, trusting in a doctor and you know, trusting in an expert. Uh, and and you know when you receive feedback on one what you're experiencing. Because it also raises the reverse question, you know, then, how does what is the effect of having I'm not gonna say, like a bad doctor, uh, necessarily,

but because we don't even necessarily have to go there. Like, what when you go to a doctor where perhaps you don't feel like you really heard on a topic, or perhaps they're you know, their bedside manner is not as solid as as other professionals working in their field, Like to what extent that ends up affecting the effectiveness of of medicine, you know, via the placebo effect? Oh yeah, what you could get like a brusque doctor gives you a no sebo effect. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It

seems like the kind of thing there. There may be some papers on I have to dig around. I'm not sure how you tell. Well, there are ways you can test for that. Actually, I guess it would be harder to do that ethically. You can't like tell a doctor like beat me in your patients. Let's see how it goes. Yeah, it would have to Yeah, it would have obviously have to be a little be someone removed from from actual clinical work. But um, they would be interesting to see

where that thread would take us. Yeah, all right, Well I think we need to take another break, but then we will be right back to round this out with a couple more emails. Thank thank thank Alright, we're back now, obviously folks that listen to the show, sometimes you listen to older episodes. A lot of older episodes have been coming up in the feed recently because for one thing, we always run a rerun episode on Saturday's pull something

out of the Vault for a Vault episode. But then we also have had all these playlists that have come out as part of a uh you know, a company initiative to provide some some curated selections of past episodes. So listen to during this time of pandemic. Uh. So here is one from Brett and this is a response to Sacred Mountains. Uh. These were a pair of episodes

that we have recently rerun in the feed. Hello Robert and Joe, big fan of your show and I love the questions you ask always lead us down a path of education and curiosity. I wanted to write about the Sacred Mountain and add my opinion about mountains. Living in Colorado. It is a culture here to quote head to the mountains,

whether for biking, hiking, or skiing. There is a term out there that is directed to how many fourteeners you have bagged, meaning how many you have climbed In doing so, your perspective about their true nature can be obtained from Afar. They look dominant and overwhelming with how far they reach into the sky and seem to touch the heavens. And when you drive to UH to hike one, you cannot always see the top, leading you to you to believe

that the hike is is just that a hike. But once you start going up and you have to UH, that is when the power of the mountain can be felt. You notice your legs feel heavy, like someone has tied cinder blocks to each foot. You pay attention to your breathing because it feels like you cannot get enough oxygen sweat,

even though it might only be fifty degrees fahrenheit. But upon reaching the summit, which is never the first top of the mountain you see called a false summit, and after you catch your breath, there is just a feeling that comes over you that is hard to describe. You were just in awe about how far away everything seems and how small you as a human really are. It is very joyous and most people do some sort of celebration.

Thinking about two centuries ago, people probably did not have a concept of oxygen and an understanding of why it becomes difficult to breathe. This could bring about great respect for elevation here in Colorado. Once up top of fourteen er the oxygen level is fifty six percent that of sea level, So I can understand the respect people must

have cast upon the mountains and how it happened. Also, when up that high, it is usually windy and storms can come out of nowhere, producing a lightning and hail like you were angering the gods for trying to climb to heaven. Also, if it happens to snow, becoming snowblind can lead to disorientation, which I have experienced. Another point is that today we have roads and paths to access the peaks. Uh, we're trying to get to the base of a mountain out there long ago in itself was

a feat. Trying to find your way back without a path can feel impossible. Ancients may not have had our understanding of science, but they respected the power of the mountains, which a lot of us here also do. I appreciate your time and please stay safe Brett in Colorado. What a wonderful message. Thank you, Brett. Yeah that he raises some excellent points here about just the experience of climbing the mountain, all these little things that uh, you know

we met. I not really have thought about as much or stressed in that episode. Like I love the idea of the false peaks, you know, or just you know, driving home. Um, like the bodily awareness of that kind of physical exertion, which certainly there's an element to that in all exercise, you know, where oh my body healing, my body more than usual, I'm feeling my breath more than usual, and that is grounding us in the now.

It is an exercise and mindfulness, the exercise and mindfulness to a very large extent, like the primordial exercise in in mindfulness. But the change in elevation would seem to um to make this even more pronounced. Yeah, yeah, totally that. I think that's exactly right. And now I just wish I could go climb a mountain, but now more than ever, I mean recording a podcast in my closet. Thanks Brett, I I totally so. I I in no way have ever done like the the actual like dangerous or athletic

type of mountain climbing. You know, I'm not that sort of person, but I do absolutely feel this urge to get up on top of natural heights. Like you know, I see I see a big hill or rock, and I feel an instinct to climb on top of it. It's very powerful and I and I do want to obey. That's the goat mind speaking to you, right, That's the the Sader brain take And over all, right, I think we should finish up with one last email here and

and I really loved this one. So this was in response to um our episodes about a World before Fire. This is also an older pair of episodes that we re ran recently, I think um where we talked about the history of fire on Earth. You know the interesting fact that Earth is often known as the water planet, but Earth is maybe even more uniquely the fire planet.

It's the only place in the Solar System we could think of really where you could have fire, because it has the oxygen to react with the fuel and all that things that other things in the Solar System that we think of as fiery, like the Sun are not fiery. Like the Sun is a you know, giant ball of hot gas and plasma, big fusion reaction, and nothing is actually on fire there. But then we also talked in that episode about how necessary fire is for the unique

history of human technological development. For example, it's really hard to imagine like an under water intelligent species ever developing the same kind of technological regimes that we did that ruled human history, because those regimes are based so strongly on things like metal working, which, as we understand it is dependent on fire. I don't know, maybe you could figure out some of the way on using hydrothermal vents to work metal or something, but it seems hard to picture.

And in response to this pair of episodes, Corey writes in Corey says, Robert and Joe, I was listening to some back episodes and found the world before Fire the human flame. It was very interesting and included the unintended bonus that it reminded me of Chesterton's remarks on the poetical name of Smith in Heretics, thank you for what

you do? And then Corey attaches a quote from G. K. Chesterton, And so the context here is that Chesterton is talking about um finding what he calls the poetical sense lying under all things. He's essentially trying to make a point that in fact, there are no uninterest sing subjects. There are only subjects where we fail to see what's interesting

about them. And so somebody challenges him on on the sensibility of his and says that they offer up the example of a character in a book named Mr. Smith. Presumably this name is is a boring name, right, It's an unremarkable feature for a character to have, And like, how could you find something interesting about a character named Smith? And Chesterton responds like this quote. In the case of Smith, the name is so poetical that it must be an arduous and heroic matter for the man to live up

to it. The name of smith is the name of the one trade that even kings respected. It could claim half the glory of that arm of verum Quay which all epics acclaimed. The spirit of the smithy is so close to the spirit of song that it has mixed in a million poems. And every blacksmith is a harmonious blacksmith.

Even the village children feel that, in some dim way, the smith it is poetic, as the grosser and cobbler are not poetic when they feast on the dancing sparks and deafening blows in the cavern of that creative violence. The brute repose of nature, the passionate cunning of man, the strongest of earthly metals, the weirdest of earthly elements, the unconquerable iron subdued by its only conqueror. The wheel and the plowshare, the sword and the steam hammer, the

arraying of armies, and the whole legend of arms. All these things are written briefly, indeed, but quite legibly on the visiting card of Mr Smith. That's wonderful. I love this and I for me this encapsulates a lot of what I try to do with this show is try to find the thing that you might not even realize has something interesting and mysterious lying underneath it, and dig

down into that that sediment. Yeah. Absolutely, the idea that that there are no uninteresting topics, that that is something that we we try and take to heart here. I mean they're there are. Of course, there are topics that

we tend not to cover on the show. But I think it has always been our experience, has always been my experience with h you know how stuff works as well prior to all of this that, you know, any any assignment that one gets, any topic that has passed down or suggested by another, you know, there's there's gonna be something there. Once you start digging around, you're gonna

find some nugget of wonder. Well, what I would admit is that I think, I think I agree with Chesterton, like there are no uninteresting topics, only topics which we fail to find what's interesting about. But there. But I admit that there are plenty of topics where I keep failing to find what's interesting about them, like that, you know there there are things that don't interest me. I just want to say that I think that's a failing

on my part. I haven't gotten there yet. I mean, part of it is like, you know, you lock yourself in a room long enough, and the walls will start speaking to you. Right, your mind will find the patterns where there are no patterns. Um. Spend enough time with a topic that you might otherwise not really um you know that you know might otherwise not research, and you'll you'll you'll suddenly start seeing things you didn't see before,

though hopefully things that are actually there. Right, I hope we're not just like always hallucinating interesting things about Well, No, we do our best to keep it real. I think, so all right, Well, I think maybe we need to call our first listener mail episode right there. But we've got another whole episode worth of listener mail to catch

up on that we're gonna feature next week. I believe, yes, and I believe the plan is we're going to have recorded these listener mails before anyone has had a chance to respond to the episode that we have coming out this month on a Star Wars related topic. So if you if you end up writing in about that topic, uh, we'll have to catch you on the next listener mail, which you know hopefully won't be quite as um as

far in the future. Maybe we can get back in a pattern of doing one of these a month like we used to. I don't know, we'll see. We'll see if we get to do anything like we used to. That's kind of the big open question right right, But either way, keep them coming. We we always love hearing

from you, absolutely. In the meantime, if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your mind, you will find us wherever you find your podcasts and wherever that happens to be whatever strange program or aggregate or uh you know, uh you know. Back Alley Shady h Man in a trench code who sells podcasts on thumb drives. I don't know wherever you get the show. If there is a way to rate, review and subscribe,

then you should do it. If the man in the trench coat has like a notepad where you write down a little review and UH and leave your your name and social Security number, then I guess go ahead and do that because that probably helps us out huge Thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

If you would like to get in touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other to UH to submit some listener mail that might be featured in a future listener Mail episode, you can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your favorite shows