Interview: Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson

on Bill Maher. Um, he's been a nova like all the time. Yeah, yeah, he's he will Basically he is the least camera shy scientist I've ever heard of. Like, he's just a huge extrovert and he's amazing doing a great advocate for science, and it's a real talent for for taking this stuff down and just in talking about science, uh in a way that his intended audience can really

understand it. Be that intended audience, Um, you know, the average Joe, the the listener, you know what, viewer of the Daily Show, or politician looking to pass some sort of bills. So yeah, we were very excited to be able to get on the phone with him and ask him some questions about what he's been up to and his thoughts on science and where does the state of it so to speak, all right, so let's uh let's

go ahead and jump into it here. The first question we had for Dr Tyson had to do with the fact that there is a new Cosmos television show coming in so it's gonna be a little little ways off. But Cosmos is, of course the classic Carl Sagan show that just continues to uh to to have a big influence on people like people who grew up watching the show. We're just really inspired about science and about the universe and cosmology and just a just a really beautiful show.

And so they're they're bringing it back. Tyson is the new host, and so we had to ask him about stepping in and filling Carl Sagan's shoes. It's a twenty first century version of Cosmos, conceived as though it was the first time it would it would be aired. However we already know. But what I mean by that is there's a lot of issues and science frontiers and cultural social um dimensions to the relationship of science to society

that mattered today more or differently than they mattered years ago. Okay, so we couldn't help it, but we had to ask, you'd probably have to wear a turtle neck then in the new Consince. You know, if I do, it would be some sort of back to our homage to Carl. But there are other ways we we can think of honoring him without the turtle n I was a big turtle netwear in my day, but right, these are other days that we're talking about, and so, uh so we'll

and my my wardrobe was not yet determined. Actually, we have to consult people who think deeply about this sort of thing. So he got a big kick out of that. Come to ask him about the sweater, I wanted to ask him. It was very intimidating talking to I wanted to ask him whether he would have his own spaceship in the show, like like Sagan had. But um, you know, like you said, they're still not even sure exactly what he's going to be wearing this, so perhaps those decisions,

that's right, that's right. The best minds are on it, though, So we also wanted to ask him some some more hard core science questions here. We were particularly interested what Tyson's take on this question would be, if he had had unlimited funding in his disposal, what two large scale astrophysics projects would he like to see realized and why. He had a pretty awesome answer, And here's what his

answer was. We still don't know enough about the structural integrity of asteroids too too to claim that we have any clue about how to deflect them, or to destroy them, or to mitigate what would otherwise be an extinction level catastrophe on Earth, something that's happened before. So I would do all the above. So so you know what NASA

would be. NASA would be like a space depot and you go there and say, okay, I need to go to an asteroid that's orbiting beyond Mars, and you would assemble the rocket propulsion elements to to your to your spacecraft necessary to reach that goal. Right, So it's like choosing what kind of fuel tank and what kind of supplies and you pack it up and then you go. And so it's not let's only go to this one destination and that would be what we that that will

be the mission. No, all of space should be the mission. Otherwise it's it's a one they're all one off you know, if expansion of human presence, we're all one off, we would all explore and then go back into the cave. It's okay, we did that. Um, let's think of something different to do. But of course, the history of our species is one where we explore, we pitch tent, and then we explore from there and find ways to survive. And and our species has thrived because of this fact.

And space is simply another frontier where I had full expectations that we continue the way we have. So I thought that was very thoughtful in talking about space is more of a cohesive mission exploring space, and that we shouldn't necessarily have these one offs. And I really like this this idea that we we don't just stop, you know, we just don't go back to our caves and stop

thinking about these things and stop exploring. Yeah, And and that NASA should be like a you know, a home depot for space travel that I thought was pretty great. And I could see like the little orange uh pests or whatever they wear, um, and how cool would that

be to go and get your space parts there? But you know, this is sort of big The question or or made us think a little bit more about funding and how we are hamstrung by that currently in our environment we don't necessarily have all the funding out our disposals. So we wanted to ask him about, uh, the sort of unfortunate state of funding for space exploration. And we had wondered if he thought it was just a current political zeitgeast, or if we're just not doing good enough

job of explaining why space exploration is important. And this is what he had to say about it. Space exploration should be funded, not for any normal reason. That's given the fact to have a book coming out in February, which was originally titled Failure to Launch The Dreams and Delusions of Space Enthusiasts, but the publisher felt the title was too depressing, so we came up with a less depressing title and what it will appear in the form

of a book titled Space Chronicles. It's every thought I've ever had about our past, present, and future in space, and out of that comes certain realizations that we've never gone into space because it's a frontier, or because it's to explore, or because there's scientific to goveries to be had. We've never gone into space with the Man program for that reason. The man program is the lion's share of

the cost of space exploration. So and in fact, we've never gone into space without humans above a certain cost level, because there's a radar level below which you can fund almost any science you want, and that's a function of how wealthy the nation is that's conducting the activity. The Hubble telescope, for example, that's essentially just at the limit,

a little bit below the funding radar. You can get multibillion dollar projects funded over the years, but when you're up around ten billion, thirty billion, that's where discovery and it's our mission, it's in our DNA. None of that works. None of it, or at least the history of the funding of expensive projects of our species and all cultures and all civilizations, there is no evidence that we have

ever responded positively to those kinds of drivers. The only drivers that really stimulate people to spend money is war and economics, and a third one which is less common today, the praise of royalty or deity. There was a day when you could use you can invoke one or both of those and you can get anything done. That's how you get the Pyramids and all the church building in Europe.

The Cathedrals of England, this sort of thing. You could do that if there's a power above you that you fear or that you want to praise too for your protection. So but that doesn't happen much anymore. That leaves war and economics. We went to the Moon because we were at war. We choose not to remember it that way, but that was the driver. And but we remember it as though was where Americans. Of course we're going to explore. Without the war driver would have never had. And and

so that's the blunt realization of it. So to say, let's become a space faring nation if it is, if it is, if the arguments are absent these other drivers, then you would have to assert that we are a fundamentally different kind of civilization from all civilizations that have

ever preceded us. So I found that really fascinating. Um, you know, the idea that that that for modern society, the big driver of this kind of advancement and what we would need for like really hardcore investment in space exploration is you know, the economic incentive or the war incentative incentive. So on one level, I could not but think what we need to do is fake an interplanetary war, like we need to roll out the war the World's hoax for real, and then people will be like, oh

my goodness, there's an alien race that wants to destroy us. Yes, let's invest in space because there's a lot at stake here. This is war, this is serious, this is what humans are all about. Um, you know, let's let's work on those battle crisis. Yeah. But then of a sudden you're rolling out study and their space lawyers. Right, it's gets a little bit more complicated. Space lawyers always complicate things. Um.

The other thing that did really fascinating. We've we've talked before about the topic of religion and space, and I've I've blogged about it, and I actually got an accompanying blog post for this podcast for Discovery Space where I talked about this a little. But the idea like what if you had to create a religion for space now, And for some people, that's completely ridiculous because because science, science is king and space exploration, there's no room for religion. Right,

That's that's certainly that's a valid argument. But the other side of the argument that I'm not I'm not necessarily saying like this is what we need to do. But it's interesting sort of thought process is what if we created a religion to make to make space, to support space exploration. Like I was talking to a friend of mine, this guy Andy, who's a game designer and he works with space themes sort of space opera projects, and so he was arguing that, like, all right, in space exploration,

space travel, you know, the details are important. Everything's gonna be ironed and you've gotta be disciplined. So you need some sort of like really dogmatic religion that's going to inspire that you know, you have to this is your duty, this is you know, you've got to play another Yeah. Well, I mean I think on a certain level, any kind of space expression is gonna be fear based, because if

you messed up, you're gonna die. But he was talking about like just you know, really regimented kind of like uber you know, Catholic kind of a space religion or something very heavily ritualized. Right, And we've talked and we've talked about in the past. You know, people who have been inspired by, say, um, the Church of Jeice Christ, the Latter day Saints, and that is the fact that that faith has space already factored into it, and therefore

for some individuals that has been a driving force for them. So, but what Dr Tyson said made me think about, all right, well, what if what if you created this religion to where where another huge part of it is by exploring outer space you are pleasing some some deity or even just some sort of divine king, and maybe you're everlasting soul is somehow tied up in the bargain. I know it's

it's probably a little bit disenterying. I just get I like to get a little bit more simplistic with it, and I just say, let's just just call it second is um and we all wear the turtle. Yeah, we all wear turtlenecks, and we all support space exploration. Yeah and uh, and we can ritualize it as much as possible, you know, and to to make it feel like, hey, this is let's do it for for Carl. Second, so like the pretest sets down with you and says, look,

you want to make your heavenly sake and happy, don't you? Well, exactly really need to apply yourself more in space exploration and get a new turtleneck because that one is a little dingy. Yeah. Um, So I don't know, it is

it is. Uh. What I thought was interesting about what Tyson had to say is that he really is stripping away the reasons underneath why we do what we do, right, Yeah, I mean that's the really the driving point here in the argument is that the reason we built the pyramids these other great acts because the thing is, like humans, we know what humans can do, but we got to have some sort of motivation to do them. Yeah, and you know us like build a pyramid, Well, what are

you gonna do to make me do it? Or you can you know, maybe you're gonna crack a whip or tell me about um, you know, the afterlife or some of the divine being that have to be other motivators there, And he's saying that the only ones left to us for the most part are war in economics because gods and god kings are not really as as much of

a driving force and technological advancement these days. Well, and I just thought it was very refreshing that he said that to say, you know, okay, it is part of space exploration as part of our national identity, but let's just be real about it. This was driven by war, Its driven by economics. Um. And this is following what he said about frontiers and like the basic adventure, you know,

spirit of man. So he's not denying that, but he's saying saying that that's this is all well and good, but you have to face the realities of actually seeing these big projects take off, you know, past that threshold, right, and I that's the rub, right, because we can't help but to create as a species. And yet we have these drivers that, um, that that are behind why we

do what we do. Yeah, So my plan end is we convince everyone that the devil lives on another planet and it's going to invade Earth unless we team up with a space god and start getting serious about exploring the cosmos. You have got some elaborate plans. Might we gotta we we gotta push that throughout Congress. Um. But before we continue with the interview, we need to take a quick break, so we'll be right back right after this. This podcast is brought to you by Intel, the sponsors

of Tomorrow and the Discovery Channel. At Intel, we believe curiosity is the spark which drives innovation. Join us at curiosity dot com and explore the answers to life's questions and we're back. Let's get back to the interview. Um, what was it? What was the next question that we had for Dr Tyson. Well, it was a sort of a m an idea about neuroscience and how uh this this question about whether or not it's stolen any thunder

from space exploration. In this sense, the people are so sort of taken with exploring the universe of their minds that perhaps they have moved away from space exploration. And in case in point, our podcast stuff to blow your mind. But I haven't done account but I have a feeling we've done more uh episodes about the mind than we have about space. Yeah, and certainly, I mean there's a lot of stuff in the media in neurosciences as a field that is just completely exploding. So this was the

question that we pose to Dr Tyson. And there's no comparison with regard to the funding that goes to space exploration versus the funding that goes to neuroscience. In other words, whatever thunder one might imagine, it has taken away the relative funding, which is the most that's the clearest measure of of of thundered one might have. Uh, it's small.

Neuroscience is pennies compared with space exploration. And by the way, if you look at the total space budget of the world, all money spent on space related products and services, the NASA budget is a tiny fraction of that total money. If you add up all the total value of GPS and weather satellites and communications satellite, direct TV, satellite radio, add it all up, what we actually spend on NASA

is small. So so as an enterprise, space is huge, and it's sort of permanently huge because it's worked its way into our daily lives in ways that some people today take for granted. People who are saying, we don't need the space exploration. But you know, it's as it's has been stereotyped. The person first person to say we don't need space exploration, and what do I need that for. I've got the weather channel, you know, and of course were it gets all its images of the hurricane en

route to your town, you know. So so there's a lot that we all take for granted, and on some level that's a good thing. It means it's a fundamental part of our culture. But the funding to extend it and to promote it then need the case needs to be made because people haven't thought about why they do it.

They just do it. The human brain seems to only go from A to B. Doesn't know how to go from A to B then to see and then you get to D, and the D is the goal that you want those extra steps to fund a space program to have that be a carrot for the smartest kids and the educational pipeline who then want to become biologists

and chemists and aerospace engineers and astrophysicists and geologists. Because if you're a geologists, I say, well, you can study this rock face on Earth, where this rock face on Mars. I'm gonna get the best geologists because they're gonna want to do it on Mars. I can say you can study this slime mold here on Earth where you can look for life that's never been found before in the aquifers of Mars. I'm going to get the best biologists.

Space has a way of attracting the best people because the best people want to work on the best problems, with the hardest problems, with the most interesting problems. And

once that happens, you care. Then you create the culture of science as something that a nation is engaged in that gets the respect of politicians because they're the ones voting to fund it, and then it works its way into the moods and attitudes of teachers, of students, of parents, and science is no longer something to fear and something

to embrace. Once you embrace this, then the culture creates stem field people who in their creativity, invent tomorrow, and that creativity births entire new economies for the twenty one century, and that's what will keep a nation at the forefront. This whole job's package that they're trying to promote now it's it's it shouldn't be about jobs. It should be about frontier industries so that America can lead the world as it once did. Oh, by the way, those industries

need jobs. It's not Let's get you back to work and then all will be fine. We can get you back and we can have a country of a hundred percent working people, but we'll be dancing to the tune of everyone else who's actually innovating. And the innovators are the people who are the engineers, the scientists, the technologists who see what is to come combined with what they know, and they invent something new to make tomorrow. Come. Once

this happens, then the country's economy will boom. And this connection between space exploration and a booming economy, like I said, takes longer than an elevator ride. And it's not a direct connection, it's indirect. And I think therein is the challenge. So again from Dr Tyson, there's another sobering look at what it takes to push science through the political system. Yea, And I believe that um Dr Tyson was at the

World Science Festivals Stephen weinberg keynote address. Yeah you were there, Yeah, I was there, and I'm pretty sure he was in the audience, And so we asked him about what Weinberg argued that we need a new particle accelerator because it's necessary for society to better understand the laws of nature. That's that's what Weinberg says, in particular dark matter, because you know five six of the universe is made up of it, and why not know more about that? Right? Right?

And and just to clarify, because we haven't really talked as much about particle colliders in this podcast, but this is where you take particles and you speed them around this giant facility, smashed them into each other. They and when they break apart, you can learn about what composes them and therefore learn about the about what's happening with

matter at its smallest and briefest uh points right. And what Weinberg said is we we really need something that is the more beefed up superconductor than than what we have right now and certain so, um so it led us just to wonder about dark matter and how how we can get the general public interested in that, How could we relate to the general public that this is actually important to look into. How can we make it more personal? And um this is what Dr Tesson had

to say. It won't trigger the funding, so I won't even I don't even go there. That's the delusion. The delusion is you just have to make the science case and everyone will want to do it. I the history of human behavior does not bear that out. And so the reason why particle physics was funded for a hundred years in America was because the physicists who were engaged in that activity built bombs. It was the physics of

our nuclear arsenal in the Cold War. So the illusion was that America was interested in physics research because we wanted to be on the frontier of discovery. The actual reason was that these are the people who won the Second World War for us and are creating the power that the geopolitics needed throughout the Cold War. So there

is no there is no argument. That's my point. There's no argument unless you can say, or at the other end of this, we've got a new weapon and we're at war with somebody against whom we can use this weapon, we get funded overnight. The original super collider was canceled. It was proposed in the mid eighties, work began in the late eighties. It was canceled in the early nineties because a couple of years earlier peace broke out in Europe.

That's not what they'll tell you. They'll tell you, Oh, because there's cost overruns and we just couldn't afford it in this climate. Okay, that's what they'll tell you. But there was no talk of cost overruns in the Manhattan project. There's no talk of cost over runs in the Apollo program. Those are war projects, and when you're at war, money flows like rivers period, and the sooner we understand this, the more relevant is any conversation we have about what's

possible and what's not in a funding environment. So if you want to make the case with a SuperCollider, you make the case that you're gonna be on the frontier with your technologies, and those technologies will influence a culture of other technologies that will stoke our economy. The economy has to be in there somewhere the pure scientific discovery.

And Steve Weinberg is in that sense. You gotta love him because he's like a pure academic and he thinks academically and the world shows appears to him through his academic filter. But at some point a congressman has to vote, and why they vote is completely linked to what they think is in the interest of the wealth of the nation or the health of the nation, health as in national security. They and they can say whatever they want about discovery, but the actual drivers are not that at

which they which I was, it wasn't true. This is these are my findings in my study of six thousand years of human culture, and that analysis is in this book coming out in February. Okay, So that's why it's important to write your congresswoman or you're a congressman, right, Yeah, Though also I think there's a little more rationale for the fake devil planet. I was thinking about that as

but but now, but beyond beyond that. Yeah, he really makes a solid case for just how we end up achieving these these different scientific programs and what is really the motivator there. And again that's what's one of the brilliant things about Tyson these not blind to these economic and political realities when talking about the future of science, because I mean, we would all like for the you know, it just to be like, yes, ra ra science raa discovery because in our heart, I feel like we all

feel that way. Certainly if you're listening to to this podcast, you have at least a little of that in you. But you know, thus is the world, and we let's move through the world. That's right. And pure science is like sitting down to a blink page, right and just creating just for free creativity's sake, whereas applied science, you know, you sit down that blank page and you know who your sponsors are and what's going to come of it.

So it's a little bit disheartening to think of it that way, but it is a really pragmatic way to understand why civilizations further their cultures, right, Yeah, what Dr

Tyson has say. Remind you. I can't help but be reminded of the documentary on origami between the photos, because that's a situation where you have mathematicians who were just really into origami, not just like oh I made a swan, but like really complex oregonamy problems that have to be tackled from a mathematical standpoint, And in that regard it's purely academic, like like on one level, there is no

application for the heavy mathematical study of origami. But these guys reached the point where they figured that where where their findings did have applications in the real world, such as in uh, how we fold a parachute or solar sales and satellites. But like Hyson says, it's there's an indirect link, and for the most part, people were blind to indirect links, certainly in politics. Yeah, there you go. So we had just one final question that we had to ask Dr Dyson, and here here it is Julie.

Here's Julie asking it and us getting an answer. Burning question, bring it back it alone, if you can bring it back, bring it back sure, Uh, I don't know that it would know how to survive here's the problem. You bring back a wooly mammoth just in time for global warming. You know that's cruel. Bring back something that likes hot wet, not the mammoth who thrived on the on the glacial coverage of North America. So I think it's inevitable, whether we want to do it or not, somebody's gonna do it.

And uh sure so So in other words, I'm indifferent to that. I don't have an opinion one way or another. It's going to happen, and when it happens, I won't even stand in judgment of it. I'll just okay, it was inevitable, and uh, you know, they we should have some foresight about what it means to bring it back. Do you bring back a male and a female their mammals, so I presume they made it sexually. Do you keep it in a zoo? Do you sit it loose in

the northern Northern Canada? Like what do you do? You know? Be nice? If we so thought that through. So there you go, bring it back? Yeah, yeah, there you go, according to Tyson and why not? Yeah, well but you're just caution. He's you know, no, no, you're right, He's not he's not saying just you know, wholesale, let's start selling them at a pet smart Yeah, um, you know not know, we have a miniature version that can They

can live indoors and be potty trained for sure. So we'd like to thank Dr Tyson for taking the time to talk with us. Was a real honor and privilege to get to chat with him a little bit there. And if you would like to learn more from Dr Tyson, you should definitely check out his radio show, his podcast on which you can find on a star Talk Radio

dot net. That's star Talk Radio dot net. You can also check out his new book when it comes out in February again, that's gonna it called Space Chronicles, and you can also find him on Nova right and pretty much everyone. Yes, let's say, just turn on the TV you will find him. Um. But yeah, it was. It was great to be able to interview him and we appreciate it. We hope that you guys enjoyed it. Yeah, let us know what you think. You can find us

on Facebook and Twitter. We are blow the Mind on both of us and you can drop us an email at blow the Mind at how stuff Works dot com. Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow.