From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nolh.
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. In a rare two part episode, we are diving into the darkly disturbing, the
frankly terrifying story of something called the Ludlow massacre. And when we're talking off air, you know, we realized that this had to be a two part episode because there was so much to get to, especially the aftermath and implications.
Yeah, there's a ton of details here. What we recorded for like an hour forty or something overall on this episode. Yeah, it was. It's a long conversation.
It goes in a lot of directions. We all have a lot to say about this. We also please, we I always said, exhort, We plead with you, fellow conspiracy realist to check out episode one or part one of this episode before you dive into episode two.
Well, yeah, because the context is everything, and then applying that context and these specific things that occurred back in nineteen fourteen to two twenty twenty four and just what we're going through now, this is important stuff.
One hundred percent. So let's jump right back into this episode on the Ledlow massacre already in progress.
Look, the bullwood Feltz folks got up to some pretty nasty stuff, especially in the tent colonies, including Ludlow, but including other ten colonies because there were multiple. They would have these big search lights and they would wait until late at night and they would just roam the search lights around the tents. Again, these are canvas tents, so
the whole tent lights up. They would also they built a special evil car, an armored car called the Death Special that had a machine gun mounted on it, and they would drive by the edges of the cap and just rat through the windows or through the tent.
I don't think it's this exact agency that's depicted, but a lot of this kind of behavior is very well, kind of dramatized in that Woody Got three movie.
I was talking about Bound from Glory m Yeah, and I can see it in that from you know, these very real events. They were also detaining people, they were doing sniper attacks, sometimes some folks who might be union leadership, and at the whole the.
Whole time, assassinations.
I mean, most of this is intimidation, like that's you can see that, that's what they're doing. But some of it is, like I'm assuming, going after lives.
Yeah, people died. And then at the same time, you know, the so called scab workers. We have to give them a moment. They're like anybody else, They're just trying to have a job, and they've probably already traversed hundreds of miles, probably in an immigration situation or leaving, you know, a very dangerous rural situation. They're they're saying, I'm not the enemy, but the union is saying, if you're not with us,
then you're against us. And so there are also fatal confrontations between union workers on strike and the so called scabs. So this is very dirty business all around. This is the dawn of something that is much larger in scope. It's called the Colorado Whole Field War. Again, not in your history textbooks at least in grade school or if you had I don't know if you somehow had Howard Zen at your career day. Yeah, do you think he does or did career days? Sure, that'd be cool. I
would do. I missed doing career days. I used to do them all the time. Have you guys ever done one?
I haven't. I mean I've participated in one on the you know, student end of it when I was a kid. But that'd be a lot of fun. I would love to go and talk about the wonderful world of podcast.
You guys can come with me next time if you want. Why do you do this?
I've done like single days out of school, like a career talk, like, hey, let's talk to this guy. Tell us about your job.
Dad.
That's in me.
Damn.
I do those things. I've been doing those for a long time. And you know, once you accept that you are never going to be the most popular career Day guest, then it's a wonderful opportunity. It's really cool. Hang. The most popular guest is always the guy with the fire truck boom the fire truck. He runs the game. He is the Rockefeller of career day.
Do you make like a poster of three? A trifle? Poster board says like podcasts the Future of Radio.
The first time I did it, I played some videos that we have worked on and I gave out a bunch of house stuff works swag. Nice or the first time I did it for this occupation. And you know, if you got the swag, then you got the crowd in grade school at least it probably works in college too, right, Who doesn't want a free T shirt.
Shot glasses that just say listen to the cast, like and subscribe shotglasses. Yeah for the college kids.
Okay, well, you know, if we get a price break on the shot glasses, maybe we can get away with it in grade school, like give this to your parents.
Mm hmm.
What could go wrong? That's the question Colorado Governor Elias m Ammon's asked when this violence is continuing to escalate. And again, you know, the story is often explained in terms of the men who are working as miners or working for this detective agency or these local guards. But we have to remember there were many more women and children. Right. The population is much bigger than it sounds when you hear some of these round numbers. The governor calls in
the Colorado National Guard, yes, a militia. On October twenty eighth and at first the Guard seemed kind of calm, but later evidence would show that the Guard troopers were, in fact a lot of them being paid the under the table by Colorado Fuel and Iron.
Gee, that's it's weird. How could that happen?
I mean, think of it this way, like the Dave and Busters example. So we're in that daven Buster's company town, we strike, and we say pay us dollars, and then the Atlanta Police Department comes in, or the Georgia Troopers come in, as a better example, and they crack down on us, and it turns out that they're getting paid by Dave and Busters.
Dave, why Buster?
No? Your name is so fun. An example of this would be the adjutant there we go General for the National Guard on the case, John Chase. John Chase has, similar to Baldwin Felt, he has a reputation for breaking strikes. About a decade earlier, he was involved during the Cripple Creek strike, which is its own own back of badgers. And there are a couple of inciting events, right, and these kind of things you always look for what the pivotal moment is, right, what is the cause of belly
or belly. On March tenth, nineteen fourteen, one of the scab worker bodies is found on the railroad tracks near Forbes, Colorado, and Forbes also has a tent colony a little smaller than Ludlow. What happens when they find the body.
So the guard blamed the strikers, which, Matt, you made a point off, Mike, that certainly would be an obvious, first choice, first line of questioning, given the controversy and the fact that there's a lot of there's no love loss between the union members and these quote unquote scabs.
Yeah, and so they decide to retaliate, and.
Yeah, they go in and they just talk to people right, calmly.
Well they would have if they were worried about what we call proportional response, but they're not. Instead, they completely destroy the nearby tent colony. Oh over in Forbes. The strikers are just further galvanized by this, because usually in these situations you'll see a growth in unity and commitment to a cause before you break the back, right, and so the violence escalates. It's nineteen fourteen and Colorado Fuel
and Iron is starting to run their numbers. You know, they're Q two or Q three numbers, and they say it's actually getting too expensive for us to maintain these troops, and so in step with the politicians the governor, they decrease the amount of National Guard on the ground and this results in an increase in violence because now more of those fatal conflicts can occur.
YEP. And then on Sunday, April nineteenth, so that's like just a month and change afterwards, in nineteen fourteen, the National Guard creates a big circle around the camp, so they're stationed all around the camp. Basic there's no way to run, no direction out of the camp. You can run without running past some National guardsmen. And they also install a machine gun, so we're talking like military grade
weapons on a bluff above the camp, so overlooking the camp. Basically, if anything happens down there, this machine gun can probably reach you with.
Its bullets higher elevation. So yeah, let's step back a little because I like that we're pointing out there's a murkiness to it. The climax of this part of the war is at that Ludlow ten colony. It's April nineteenth when they install the machine gun. Wee hours almost April twentieth. The next day, the National Guard does attack to that
earlier point. No one sure exactly what instigated the violence, but the most popular account you can find in historical records says that the day after some members of the colony celebrated the Orthodox Easter, three guardsmen approached the camp, so there's no firing yet, and they say, hey, you're holding someone against their will. Let them go. Go fish, We don't have the person you're looking for. The leader of the camp is a guy named Louis Tikas Tikas,
and he gets an offer from these guardsmen. At the same time, they say, hey, come meet us about a half mile away in Ludlow Village. This is getting out of control, right, just for the good of the families, let's talk true. So come meet our leader, Major Patrick J. Hamrock dumb last name, it's his real last name.
Maybe a little nominate determinism there too, And they meet at a train station in Ludlow Village, about a half mile from the colony. And while this meeting was going down, two separate militias, the ones running that machine gun, take positions strategic positions along a rail route about half a mile south of blood Log and it's not almost like they're laying the groundwork for an ambush, right.
So at the same time, simultaneously, concurrently there are miners Union miners who are armed Greek miners, and they begin flanking this other arroyo. And when two of the militia forces explosions occur later we'll learn outside of the fog war. These are detonated to draw support from National Guard units,
and these explosions alert the Ludlow tenth colony. Most of the people have heard, you know, three National Guards are here, right and have seen someone trying to make that siege perimeter, but they don't really know what's happening, so they hear the explosions. The miners at this point are pretty well militarized themselves. They take up positions at the bottom of the hill right, So again the elevation here is a big factor. The militia opens fire and then hundreds of
miners their families they run for cover. Chaos is raining. Three of the strike leaders, including Tikas, are captured and killed by the Guard. It very much does seem like the Guard lied to him. They conspired to lure tik Us out and never intended to make a truce.
There's reccounts that just say they're shot and left to their left where they died. Right, They just left their bodies there. They didn't do anything ceremoniously. They didn't pick up their bodies and take them to you know, whatever hospital or you know, whatever medical assistance they were there. They just shot them and their bodies fell.
Yeah, the bodies hit the floor. The strikers are out gunned and they're you know, they're exercising gutty tactics, but they run out of ammo with that.
Let's take a quick break here a word from our sponsors, and return with more on the Ludlow massacre. And we're back.
And so a lot of people retreat to the countryside right to gather forces and figure out their next step. A lot of women and children, because they've already had this siege mentality. A lot of women and children hide in cellars that have been dug beneath these canvas tents.
Because they're bullets flying right.
Right, and these are not the fancy pants cellars of old New England. These are holes in the ground. The guard responds by dousing the tents and kerosene and setting them a flame.
And the big question for history here is how yeah, how awhere were they that most of these tents had something dug beneath them Because of the cold that we talked about, one of the main ways to get away from that cold is to go a bit underground. And like, did any of those National guards men know? It seems like one person could have raised their hand and said, hey, whoa, whoa. But again, this is a big movement. These are a lot of National guardsmen doing this is not one or
two dowsing with kerosene and then setting fires. It's going through and systematically clearing this tent.
The banality of evil which we discussed earlier, I was just following orders. Yeah, we have to remember the National Guard here is pulled from people who are loosely familiar with the area. It was not an uncommon practice, especially in inclement weather, to dig into the ground like that. So it is possible that they didn't know or didn't think about it in the heat of the heat of the conflict, but it is it begs probability right to say that it didn't occur once. I mean, especially in just one
cellar alone. There were eleven children and two women found burned and suffocated to death, body so mangled that it's impossible to know which of these tortures events actually killed them.
Yeah, but it's likely that just the flames above them, filling that cellar with smoke got to them.
First, the oxygen out as well.
Yeah, So are you saying they thought the tents were empty because they weren't aware of the dugout cellars or it's by design, like I mean, they were they were intending to burn.
People alive, basically, right, it's highly It is cartoonishly unlikely that they would not have thought about people having cellars dug under the tents.
It is incredibly unlikely.
Where do they think they were? Like, I mean it, don't you know?
I mean, I agree with you. It's it's hard for me to come to grips with knowing how bad of a situation it would be for the company, Right, that's once gets out that women and children were burn their lives like that, So it's hard for me to grasp like, well, was it on purpose? Was it an accident or was it just oversight? Or I mean, are they trying to send a message to the striking miners will kill your family.
At least some of at least some of them had to know because this has burned the village to save the village type stuff. This is insidious kind of total war because you're removing any infrastructure. I mean. In total, the massacre resulted in twenty five deaths, three of whom were National Guard troops, and there was media on the scene and photographs of the ten colonies because this tension had been rising for a while in the Colorado Coalfield War.
There are reports you could see on the ground about this from a New York Times reporter talking about that a bit off air, so the deaths were a matter of national interest. The rest of the country knew about this, and most people blamed John D. Rockefeller Junior, because you know, for years, this guy has not really cared about where
his money's coming from. He's out in some fancy pants part of New York and he's just saying, mall col bring me more cold, and that's actually pretty close to what he was doing.
And to your point, Matt, at this point it becomes a major optics problem, like a major PR disaster, and that's more the issue than the actual lives lost. You know, as far as the company is concerned, I would argue, I mean, you know, of course they're gonna, in their pr response probably address the egregious oversights and the over zealousness of National guardsmen, and how you know their hearts are with the families. But you know, it's all kind of.
Smoking mirrors if you haves in prayers, right, are you guys? Okay? If I read just one short excerpt from this New York Times article, of course.
Oh absolutely absolutely.
April twenty first, the day after the massacre nineteen fourteen. Quote. Just get a sense. Imagine you're a member of the public, right, you've never been to Colorado. This is how you're learning about this. The lud Blow Camp is a massive charred debris and buried beneath it is a story of horror imparalleled in the history of industrial warfare. In the holes which have been dug for their protection against the rifles fire, the women and children died like trapped rats when the
flames swept over them. Now you're just somebody in Florida reading this, right, You're just somebody on the West coast or in Chicago or something. This is how you're learning about the disastrous, heartbreaking result here that comes entirely from corporate corruption and stuff.
Like this that really demonstrates the power of the press and like how important it is for that poetic description to go around painfully poetic description where it really starts to make people understand the stakes and almost for the first time, perhaps see the evil of the situation.
Yeah, I want to call out our source here, just because we're talking about how the internet archive is down and it's really hard to locate that actual New York Times article unless you're going to a place to find it.
You can see a great compilation from PBS, right American Experience.
Yeah, exactly, So you can look up PBS American Experience, Rockefellers, the Ludlow Massacre, and you can find that specific excerpt that we just read. But there's also all kinds of other interesting stuff in there in a couple of New York Times articles from nineteen fourteen that you can find, but they are mostly a part of the aftermath with like the Rockefellers coming through and trying to I guess spin this a little bit.
Yeah, it's a pr stuff I was talking about earlier. Yeah, it's a different conspiracy, right, And you can see in there also Rockefeller's timeline, where he appears to be rethinking things, also speaks with Congress. The America is watching this in rage, in astonishment. And you don't have to be pro union, right, there were not everybody was pro union back then? Right then? Is now you don't have to be pro union to object to the indiscriminate murder of civilians. And these folks
aren't doing anything wrong. They're not a threat to the law enforcement of the militia. They're literally hiding in the ground and try not to die.
And again to see something to see it's so starkly that something is very, very broken in this system and that something has to.
Change, right, that's the idea. Something must be done, and it continues. The aftermath of this massacre, even though the public already knows about it, is even worse. This is followed by something called the Ten Day War, which is again part of the larger Colorado Coalfield War. So miners are retaliating for this massacre. Lies. People have lost family members, right, friends that barely survived, and they say, look, it's now, it's on site. Right, the time for speaking has passed.
We are attacking anti union town officials. We're attacking strike breakers, the overseers, the people are running the mines. They take control of an area about fifty miles long five miles wide. All in all, fifty people die during this ten day war, and ultimately it reaches a guy named Woodrow Wilson who did a couple other things, but one time he was US president.
Not particularly popular when it comes to super producer Max Williams of.
The Ningians History podcast.
Yeah, guy was kind of a pill.
Yeah. I like the name Woodrow, but which ruined it for everybody.
Funny. His boyhood home is actually in my hometown of Augusta, Georgia, and I once lived on the corner of Woodrow and Wilson.
Yea who That's one of those things where every so much stuff in the neighborhood gets named after the guy. Like there's a small town in Tennessee where I want to say it was it was Johnson or Jackson. But there's there's a town. We'll follow up on this later. There's a town where everything is named after that guy.
It's a small town. I only know about it because I have family living there, and if you ask the people who live there, like, hey, yeh sure, like this president they all say no, the only town is now so he's unpopular.
But there's a street right out right around where I live called generally.
Eventually, well, as we were talking about it earlier, they don't specify which generally that it could be, you know, like a law about a Russian president, just that a general general is.
Named after generally the name Lee, yes, yes, yeah, specifically is a different cul de sac, but the.
Perhaps Lady Gaga's character from the New Joker film.
I'm gonna skip it, I think. But okay, So the President Woodrow Wilson makes the decision to send in federal troops. Luckily, these troops are paid by the US government actually, and not by a corporate mining interest, so they're able to somewhat well. The disaster and strike negotiations reach an ending point. They end peacefully on December tenth of that same year. But the strikers don't really get any of those seven again,
very reasonable demands they made in the first place. A lot of them go to get arrested.
Yeah, and four hundred of them go to trials which last until nineteen twenty, though none were convicted.
That's so crazy to me, all this strife, all this loss of life all of the I didn't mean to rhyme that, you guys, but all of this terrible stuff happened, and the strikers don't get anything, and then the state in the country attempt to take all these people to court and nobody gets convicted. Just what was it for?
I mean, absolutely nothing, right, geous it Also we also see that there was one guy, a fellow leader of the strike called John Art Lawson. He's convicted of murder, but eventually, once the story moves from the headlines, his conviction is overturned. There were some like twenty twenty two National guardsmen originally in trouble. They were going to be court martialed, they got exonerated. Congress held a bunch of hearings and didn't do anything.
Jeez, what were the charges against some of these miners. They were like being accused of inciting a riot or of like you know, openly firing on the people who firing on them, which I would argue is self defense.
Murder, assault, vandalism, destruction of property, maybe theft in some cases.
But similar to the Leonard Peltzier story we were talking about, where it's like you just because you have a government agency descending on you and firing on you does not make their cause legitimate. And it's at a certain point they are coming for your life and you have to defend yourself and not think about the fact that it's a government subsidized or perhaps even part of the government.
This is a national Guard we're talking about here, right, the Colorado.
Yeah, all right, let's take a quick pause here hear a word from our sponsor, and then come back to the Ludlow massacre and we have return.
Let's jump right back in. Okay, now we know there's one big thing that's on all of our minds. Fellow conspiracy realist, Whatever happened to this poor Rockefeller guy? You know what I mean? Yeah, he went through so much he had to write letters. Take a letter he talks to Congress, right, dictated but not read by Rockefeller Junior. He does make some tangible improvements. Ultimately, though, he decides to make his own company sponsored union. Is that alternative mean classic capitalism?
Sure?
But like I mean, it's just it's just kind of lip service, right, I mean, it evolves understood.
A better form, but in the beginning, I'm just it makes me think of one of my favorite lines about capitalism. Capitalism is the one ideology that figured out. If you see someone say screw capitalism, you can print it on a T shirt and sell that T shirt to them.
Yeah, and here you go. I want to read this statement before we get to this last thing that we're going to say. Hear about John D.
Rockefeller.
This is a statement that he made in June of nineteen fourteen. So massacre occurs in April. This is in June of nineteen fourteen. This is what Rockefeller stated happened. He says there was no Ludlow massacre. The entanglement started as a desperate fight for life by two small squads of militia against the entire tent colony. There were no women or children shot by the authorities of the state
or representatives of the operators. While this loss of life is profoundly to be regretted, it is unjust in the extreme to lay it at the door of the defenders of law and property, who were in no slightest way responsible for it. That thought of the defenders of law and property isn't that doesn't that strike you, guys as like representing what police forces are. The American dream be defenders of law and property.
Yeah, we've spoken about this before, sort of the the legal standing or prioritization of law enforcement. Right, it comes up pretty often in protest and.
Yeah, well the good guys are the landowners and the company owners, right, I mean in the at least in this worldview that he puts out there in June of nineteen fourteen.
And it comes back again in just like in that time and in this time, and in recent years, it will always come up because it is a dilemma of philosophic perspective. Right, everybody wants to be the main character. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, right, And that is that is an argument Rockefeller makes, and he realizes that there is another war afoot, another conflict that a lot of people aren't thinking about in terms of what it is, which is an optics war, a war of
information and narrative. And this is where we see a very strange era in public relations. Our buddy Johnny Dee brings in a PR expert. He's in, Oh the peasants, hey to me, not only in Colorado, but broad and the contacts is really innovative. Boober and Shaker, I'm not being sarcastic, very smart person named Ivy Lee, and Ivy Lee says, look, we need an optics campaign, Johnny. You need to go to Colorado yourself, and I need media there.
I need them to take pictures of you shaking the hands, kissing the babies, hanging out at a church social.
Shaking the babies, kissing the hands.
Yeah, we need to we need don't shake them too heart. We need to also have some peopil right, a glowing kind of homespun exploration of your time, and you know, a picture you hearing grievances and responding to those. If we could get you on a home tour, we'll find you some Rockefeller friendly families. Do you walk with and go through the facilities? The media loved it, Look said America the dead so quickly forgotten Old Johnny. De's just
like us. We're not so different you and I. Geez it worked.
Should we read another excerpt from the visit that we've got from September twentieth, nineteen fifteen, when Rockefeller's out there talking to the men and women who run his iron and coal company. We are all partners in a way that we were like alluding to, Yeah, do you want to do. Would you mind doing that? I think you do awesome.
Well, thank you, Bett, I'm honored bless us with your reading to play that to a type, to play the villain here who didn't see himself as a villain. We are all.
Partners in a way. Capital can't get along without you Min, and you min can't get along without capital. When anybody comes along and tells you that capital and labor can't get along together, that man is your worst enemy. We are getting along friendly enough here in his mind right now, and there's no reason why you men cannot get along with the managers of my company.
But I am back in New.
York migration just petrician that it was just like the corporate the corporate structury of it too, the baking.
It answers the question, you know, like I'm not going to be here.
Yeah, but look look how great we're getting along when daddy's here, When Daddy goes home, and you guys could get along and play just fine.
It does have that energy, right. It does seem to the people thought, although we're cracking on him and he deserves it, it does seem that people thought he was making good faith efforts, you know, what do you guys think?
Well, I mean there were there were improvements made. The only counterpoint to it is that I and you kind of alluded to this earlier ben the way it functions in capitalism with something like this occurs, there are slight improvements. You you push the needle just enough right now, the new standard is there, but it's only moved slightly.
And something of this magnitude to even get that slight movement, which is just so frustrating.
Yeah, you need an Act of Congress, You need a major event. You need something to occur where everybody can look at it and say, oh, well, we need at least that, right, And it's always at least that.
Yeah, and the Overton windows shifts again, right, and not for nothing?
You know.
Well, some of the more cynical of us in the crowd say, isn't this like the old story about the trees who kept voting for the axe to be president of the forest. You know, the forest got smaller and smaller, but the trees would get together and they would say, you know, the axe isn't perfect, but that handles wouldn't. He's kind of like us. Oh god, it's an antique that one hurts. Okay, Yeah, And I guess we have to ask to like, obviously, folks, we've made this in
two parter. We know it's it's a little longer than usual, but we hope you find it worth your time. It's it's obviously very important to us as well, and we have to ask what this tells us about the modern day. I hope I haven't over salted the soup. That doesn't make sense, all right, nobody likes the salty soup, but we might might have mentioned it too much. But do we see some parallels here or some potential parallels?
Oh?
How could you?
Of course, it sums the whole thing up, and it's just continued. The struggle continues. We mentioned the sugar industry and how very very very similarly dangerous conditions and labor camp type scenarios still exist to this day. So that micro movement that you're talking about, Matt, I mean, it's
still slow even to this day. And also I was gonna mention and earlier like it is technically illegal for companies to retaliate against you know, unionizing workers on paper, but you know, I have a dear friend who was recently on strike, you know, in the legal profession in New York City, and when he returned from strike, there is very clear retaliatory action taking place, because it's easy to hide it behind other actions, you know, and it's just it's hard to prove, and the advantage remains on
the side of the companies, I think for full argument.
Well, also, you know to that point this acquaintance of mine as well, and you're talking about proving retaliation means proving intent, and intent is very difficult to prove, especially when there are so many other things you could throw up at the screen as the reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, in the news as we're recording this, on October third, the International Longshoreman's Association came to terms, and that's forty five thousand human beings who work in ports, like all along the Gulf Coast and the East Coast of the United States. They were going to strike, and that was gonna be a massive deal for the United States of America. Like,
and we were talking about this offline a lot. We mentioned it, I think in a strange news but we were just mentioning the effects that would have on little things like our ability to get paper towels right and fresh fruit and things like that, and it would have massive effects on the lives of everybody, these forty five thousand people who were represented by this one union. But thankfully they came to a deal negotiated that basically said we're gonna postpone our strike until ear I think mid
January of twenty twenty five. So let's get this deal done or you guys, the United States basically is in trouble.
Right at least go to the negotiating team. And that is that leads us to other question. You know, has the era of the Pinkerton past.
That I think that I think so, yeah, you can't crack skulls anymore.
It's just in this obtree.
Yeah, the optics of it are just too damaging, you know, maybe because of the public opinion and all that stuff.
So, I mean, they have to tread more lightly.
And a lot of these anti union, anti labor practices, I think the most egregious and outward ones we see are by companies like Amazon and their warehouse employees and things like that. But my point is they have to be a little more sneaky about it.
Yeah, that's that was my question. Is the age of the pinkered in past or has it simply evolved? And if it has passed to your point, then for how long is it a permanent passage or is it another cyclical iteration? Because I think we see that these things come and go over time. You know, I don't think. I don't think it's impossible that these kinds of tactics might return. We know they still happen in other parts
of the world, in other countries. You know, you don't have to look far to see the merk squads that certain energy interest will hire up to and including overthrowing a duly elected government, you know.
And then we also know that as the individuals and parties and what have you who hold power kind of shift, it's possible to roll that stuff back, you know, whether it be oversights of industry, regulations and things like that that can be rolled back. You're not wrong, man, But I do see a future, given an a radical enough shift, maybe not even that radical, where things like this sort of labor protection could shift as well.
Guys, we need a new version of the Wire looking at you, David Simon, We need a new version that shows all this stuff from the longshoreman to the tycoons in New York city to write just this shows all of this stuff working again.
One season of The Wire though, was the first time I really understood the inner workings of long shoremen and a lot of that kind of stuff for the dock workers there in Baltimore. It's a really good point, as Simon is really great at kind of explaining the intricacies of these kinds of relationships and then where the power structures and all the different you know, involved parties kind of lie.
It's a really really smart guy.
Well what does it look like now? And Ben, to your point, what does that look like when there are android law enforcement officers patrolling the docks, you know, and that kind of thing like.
Yeah, and what does it look like in a surveillance state? Yeah? This is this is something that made this in our minds more than worthy of a two part episode. It seems this conspiracy and the Ludlow massacre tells us a lot about the modern day, and we want to hear your stories of similar off obscured history. One thing is for certain, from Haffa to Colorado, from longshoremen to the Pinkerton's history is chock full of the stuff they don't
want you to know. So hit us up with your stories from the u, US, from other countries, from any time in history. We try to be easy to find online.
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Hey, do you want to call us and tell us your thoughts? Like this thought from John Lawson, who was head of the United mind Workers in nineteen fifteen. Here we go quote, mister Rockefeller has missed the fundamental trouble in the coal camps. Democracy has never existed among the men who toil under the ground. The coal companies have stamped it out. Now, mister Rockefeller is not restoring democracy, He's trying to substitute paternalism for it. I just thought
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