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Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noah.
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. We have something special for you this evening, folks, a sprawling tale of true crime, corruption and conspiracy, originating with oddly enough, one of the
key figures meant to help enact the law. This story is so wild that we had to go straight to the source to learn more, and so we are over the moon to be joined with tonight's special guest, the award winning journalist, host, writer, podcaster you've heard him orceived him in everything, the man at the helm of the new podcast, criminal attorney Brandon Jinks Jenkins Jinks, thanks so much for coming on the show today.
What's up, y'all? What an intro? I love that, Thank you all for having me.
Ben's great at this oh Man We're so excited to talk to you, Jinks. We've been listening to Criminal Attorney. Look, this is just spoiler on my part. I haven't heard the final episode yet, so I'm all the way up to five okay, and I am I got questions about the end. I don't know how much we're going to spoil about the show, because everybody can go listen to Criminal Attorney, right, I.
Need to issue a spoiler alert if you do choose.
To True Yeah, truell countdown from EDA again.
Okay, but before we get into anything, if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about yourself and then tell us how you got into this story.
Man. Okay, it's funny. I'm back here in Atlanta from my school's homecoming, so a lot of friends are like, now, talk to me about it. And admittedly I was not aware of how wide and like just how big of an audience true crime is. Like, you know, you might be into like rap music, you might be into pop music, you might be into basketball, soccer or whatever, but it seems like everyone is into true crime, which probably says
a lot about us as people. But anyways, yeah, so it's been interesting because people like, how'd you get here. So I guess you can say, like my career of doing this started like I don't know, man, maybe like a decade ago, and I was just like a blogger add a magazine called mass Appeal, so they used to do like hip hop rap, grafeed and e skate all that stuff. Well, yeah, it's like one of my favorite
favorite magazines back when it was in print. And then I was working there as like a young like intern, and then from there I transferred from there to like a Complex. A lot of people that were working at Complex were ex Massippealers, so they brought me in and they were like, hey, you know I so you can write here, but we're doing this new thing on camera. And I was like, all right, I feel like Complex
has some pretty good writers. I don't know how good I am, but if I go on camera, like a B plus is an A plus because no one else is doing it. So I was like, you know, I jumped.
On podcasting man, been there, been there?
Yeah, lower the bar, yeah, And I was like all right, let me just kind of creep in here. And so from there, you know, one thing led to another and I started doing more on camera stuff, and then eventually I got into podcasting. Uh, there was a huge podcaster in the hip hop world, Combat Jack, and he had like his whole interview series with him and all his like his cast of characters. And then he transferred into doing something that was more narrative based and it was Mogul.
So he covered the life and death of music executive Chris Lighty, and I mean it went off. I think that obviously narrative podcasts had been around, but I think hip hop didn't really have one, and if it did not from a figure I celebrated as Combat. But unfortunately Combat had passed away, and he and I were really good friends. And the people that were involved in that were like, hey, we need someone to we're thinking about continuing the series, Let's bring this guy in. And this
guy was me and it was a huge honor. We did a season, well, we did like two episodes on Combat which were really great. I learned so much about his life. And then we did a season on Uncle Luke in the Two Live Crew, which was you know, parts who probably could have been on to be a true crime show, but you know, it was really cool.
And then from there we did DJ Screw in Texas, so we told these narrative stories about their lives and then we kind of found this thing right at the end where we combined some of the idea of Mobile, which is music, and then brought it into the true crime space on the show. That was a title conviction, and so we told the story of Max by, this New York City, New Jersey based rapper who got caught in a sort of murder plot. You know, We're supposed to be a robbery, and then the robbery got botched.
The person they were trying to rob got murdered, and Max was sort of the person who orchestrated this. But in that he was looking for a lawyer, right, It's like, Hey, I'm going to go down for murder. I need to find a lawyer. One of the lawyers that he crossed paths with was Paul Bergrin, and so he meets Paul and he's like, all right here, this guy wins all his cases, you know, like then he had tried in like a New Jersey courtroom. We should get this guy
from what I gather. Again, I didn't think my old producer who brought me to this project told me about it. But basically Paul offered his services which was like, hey, maybe we should murder the witness and just spitball in here.
You guys, you know what I mean.
It's a quick fix, you know, it's for sure.
Look we can plead out, you know, we can take it to trial or hear me out and close.
It's like that's that's a jump down the street right there, and it's like, I.
Know what you're thinking, let me finish.
I wonder how it is, Like I wonder if it's in sort of a you know, law and order like esque room, like all just like dark oak, you know, and it's like or if it's written on a piece of paper and he flips it over and just says murder you know who knows and then.
Yeah, or as we learn in the show, he'll take you to a rooftop to have that converse, or maybe into the stall of a bathroom.
Right yeah, yeah, or a restaurant Deddie owns, you know, and Max declined. He ended up getting another lawyer named Jerry Saluti, who seemed clearly in that and Max is now he's doing time right now. I want to say, he's in Bergen County Jail in New Jersey. So that didn't work. Out, but he also didn't get caught in a murder for higher plot. So anyways, that's how we found the story. And so what I thought was interesting about it was that I kind of came from the
music and hip hop. He had a moment where those things intersected, and we ended up with true crime and hip hop, and then it's sort of just true crime. So our producer, Matthew Nelson found this story and the nature just do the nature of producing our last one, and he was like, Hey, this guy Paul is insane. This would be a really great episode, a really great series. We're like, yeah, sure, let's let's take care of the one of hand. And then I get a call and
he's like, hey, so remember Paul. I was like no, and then he told me. I was like, oh, yeah, him, do you think we should do this? You know, like, is he out? He's like no, he's in jails. All right, let's do it.
Yeah, Okay, then we're good.
This gets us to the heart of the story the first season of Criminal Attorney Jinx. Is it fair to say that you didn't know all the plot twists that would happen, because as I'm listening along, as all of us are listening along, the story just gets crazier and crazier, like Shyamalan after Shyamalan plot twist.
To say I didn't know where the story was going as like an understatement because you hear where you're going to end. And sometimes, you know, I think when I click, like a true crime show on any streaming app, you know, I just kind of click it, it's like very clear logline. You're like, all right, this seems interesting. But with this one, I was like, I know the end day, so I'm like, how what could happen in between? That will be more surprising.
But how bold he is and the sheer audacity of the decisions he's willing to make is like kind of amazing but also really haunting. This is like this is a human being, like you know, you could be in the grocery store. And also just how it's the bravado and how he's willing to say these things confidently. Again, like from what we gather, he offered these services to the rapper Max b like you have to. It's not enough to do it, you have to say it just.
Like well you know what I mean.
It's like this is a hashtag not all attorney's kind of situation. But it really does show you too, the lengths to which some people obsessed with the idea of
winning will go. You know, this is like a glimpse into an entire world, like through one person who's maybe an extreme case, but it really does kind of make my mind sort of latch onto this idea that there's more cases like this, you know, And I'm sure you know it's like when you boil down like any career, right, like whatever your thing is or night in career, any aspiration, whatever your goal is, what you'll justify to get there is pretty wild.
Right, And I think like that's kind of what I felt about paul An. I guess maybe a more serious notice, like, man, you're like, these are like real people you're playing, you know, these are like real human beings that he's just moving them on his own mental board.
What's the level of sociopathy or dare I say psychopathy that is required to win perpetually like that?
Because you have no scruples, because there's no point at which you will say, oh, this is too far.
There's no such thing as too far.
Let's stick with that. Let's stick with that real quick because we're talking about Paul. We're saying he's larger than life. There's some really interesting things when you look at his how he came up. You know, on paper, his early career looks pretty prestigious. We're talking a major. We're talking a guy who is working on the quote unquote right side of the law for a while. And I love the point about that slow slide into criminality. Right, No one wakes up one day and says, m yeah, today
I'm gonna be the villain. Right, I'm going full on this one. It's a slippery sloop. It's a slow gradient of as you said, Jinx, justifying behavior, how would you describe Paul to someone who had never met him? Like, if they're about to walk into a room with this guy, what do you tell them before they meet him?
And that's a good question. I'm just thinking, like, well, what I do? You know? Yeah, it's tough because it's like I always think it's like when you first meet someone and it's like you get like that like kind of minute like of like you know, just trying to read them up really quickly. And I feel like falls
someone that very quickly. He seems dangerous at least to me right, But I also think you cannot you cannot remove the fact that when people meet Paul, they need right they need they need someone to get them out of trouble, and he's saying all the right things, and people like that are scary to me. Like you guys just like you're like, this is my life, you don't worry, And you're like, I'm here because I'm worried. What are
you talking about? Anyone that just like you gotta right size things, you know, So like if you're not right size, obviously a lawyer shouldn't. He shouldn't be terrified. He shouldn't, you know, and still some sort of confidence, but like someone who's making it seem like he's just gonna make this go away, okay, like.
Yeah, oh jinx, you got a headache, Yeah, no worries.
You know. It's like the guys who are just like nothing phases them, or that everything's bounced out right. So like, if my problem is this tall and you're telling me it's nothing, that balance is gonna come somewhere else, what are you going to do to make it nothing? You know, a way to put it. Maybe it's my own skepticism, but people like that usually like if I were in the chair, you know, it's like, Okay, I'm giving him less details about my life and I'm ready.
Yeah. Do do you see formative moments in his career? Like clearly again he didn't start off as this character. Were there crossroad moments people might call it with this slide into criminality for sure?
I mean, you know one that you all just said that made me He's like, oh, I guess that makes a ton of sense what he's willing to do to win. But as you all said it, it put to my mind, I'm like, oh, well, when he was with the US attorneys, he was winning. And it wasn't until it wasn't even that he lost the case. It wasn't until he felt like he lost his relationship with you know, the fellow like sort of yours attorneys or I'm call it the bureau.
That's when he was like, okay, guys, and I'm going to go to this side and so in this in this way, he has to rewrite winning in his mind. But I also think like that then if winning is your key, if winning is your key north star, then that's just subjected, you know, like whoever you do it and who you're winning with. You know, it's like if I can't beat them, join them. Energy is that to me? Is like, that's less about I'm here to do the
right thing. I'm here to uphold the law. So Noel's saying, it's like I'm I'm here to win and there is no right side to that. That's just that's just you. But the other thing I'll say is that, you know, apparently he grew up in like in a law family.
You know.
It's like it's one of those things like as you get older, like I grew up and I look back sometimes like even in my neighborhood. I'm from New Jersey originally, and even in my neighborhood, some of the guys that are cops are some of the kids that were tripping in high school. I was like, oh, so, like how is everyone that I went to high school with that's a cop? But like you are you? So we like what are you are you doing?
You know?
So it's funny how those lines blur or how closely related they are for a thousand reasons. Maybe you want to be a cop because things around you are crazy, or maybe you want to be a cop because it's like because of what it allows you to do. I don't know those.
Because you were bullied and now you want to bully literally everyone.
I think about it, and I'm like, I think about it. To me, like when you have cops, extensibly, criminals are their colleagues, right Like, they're in constant conversation with them, almost more than their conversation with like any of us on this call. So like, if you are a political journalist, your colleagues are politicians, right Like, there is a dance between the two of you. And I think it's hard not to have some of the that ain't rub off
when those two fars touch. And I think for Paul, someone who grew up in a cop family, he grew up, you know, around police and also understanding like the military as well, I think that he has an extreme sense of loyalty for where that compass points. That's what's up for grabs, you know.
So I want to I want to switch from Paul a little bit to the other side, to the FBI, because you in criminal Attorney, you introduced us to somebody named Sean Brocos who is an FBI agent that you got to listen to the show to understand this. But it has basically basically been eyeing Paul for a long time, but not even necessarily Paul eyeing ways to kind of rise in the ranks of the FBI. You describe how she got in just on a whim, She like decided, you know, I'm gonna go try and join the FBI
and figured out how to move up quickly. Can you describe like the process of moving up through the FBI and at least her attempt to do it by flipping somebody low level and moving up, And then how did she encounter Paul?
Well, it feels like one. I thought it was crazy that she went from being like the bank teller just right to the FBI. And I was like, oh, for some reason, imagine that being like a lifelong journey. But apparently you can do it in like seven years, which is uh, just crazy. I don't know, is that like is that okay?
But you know, right i'd look at someone getting their their medical degree a little too soon, you know what I mean.
Just walk into a hospital, you know what, I'm going to join.
Which is funny because Paul tries to pull that off later. But you know, to me, it's like you need less, you need like you can fly playing play less. You know, I don't know, but yeah, it's like you know, with any sort of law enforcement, it seems to me it's the cases that you make, right, like your ability to turn over cases and then also like quickly and how much those cases net. Imagine, like whatever the sort of jurisdiction you're in, what their agenda is. Maybe it's a
violent pride, maybe it's drugs. You know, the FBI in her era is probably just like what two thousands, this is like I imagine, I mean probably post nine to eleven. It's a lot of drugs, a huge oversight from like Homeland Security is involved. So and also she's in the metro area, so imagine there's a lot of competition, a lot of dolledge circulating for her. She's playing in the background of Newark, New Jersey, which is sort of in you know, the background of the new city, so which
you know at the time. I mean, especially with Newark, it's like, well, drugs are everywhere, but in Newark it has sort of a connotation and baggage of that. So for Sean, these are going to be the cases that she makes, and if she can take down this drug
kingpin I believe I have named wilb Baskerville. If she can take him down, you know, that's big and that allows her to rise through the ranks or you know, you know, it's maybe be a director, but it would be huge news to take down a drug food in Newark, New Jersey.
Yeah, and she goes out after a guy named Chemo, right, who is kind of lower level, I guess, yeah, And man, the story of his life is tragic, and you know, you go over that a lot in the show. Just sorry, I'm just talking like a fan right now. I wanted to learn more about Chemo because Kimo's with his stepfather when well, he's jumping for it and I'm just spoiling stuff. So let's just say Chemo's an integral part of the show, but he only gets to play a part for a short time.
Yeah, you know, And I think what's interesting about this is that the role Chemo plays, right, he's not a decision maker, you know, he's sort of like kind of pushed and pulled between all these people with more bout you know, whether it's Will Baskerville, you know, Sean brocos in many ways, you know, Paulbergrant and what he's not going on over there, And then you know, you have to also acknowledge that Chemo's made whatever decision, then the
circumstances he has up until this point when Sean Frost's past. So, I think what you end up feeling with Chemo probably more than anyone, and is like I said that, Grady, and like the shades and bray of someone's life, and like how you can be in this really uncomfortable position almost from the start, and so like, yes, you have choices, but what are your choices? Is it between a rock and a hard place?
You know?
And when someone that doesn't have that sort of that environment or that that set of circumstances, when they come into your world, there's no acknowledgement of what you've gone through, what you don't have. It's just it's just opportunity to them, right. It's opportunity for Shaw, it's opportunity for Paul, it's opportunity for Will, you know. So it's a sad part of the story for sure.
And with FBI agent Brucos, there's there's something that stands
out in a weird way. Ben. It kind of parallels how you were telling us the providence of the story how you all discovered the story of criminal attorney because Agent Brocos is starting to look at this criminal defense attorney that she at first does not know right from a can of pet and she's going, hang on, every time this guy takes a case, he wins, going back to the idea of winning, and just for anybody not in the legal field, you're not supposed to win all
the time usually, I mean they want to, and that's not how it works. And so there's this excellent storytelling in our narrative where we start to ask ourselves, how can somebody and criminal defense attorney always seem to be winning? Do you see that parallel? Because I feel like she started looking at Paul Bergrinn similar to the way like you guys discovered him, not necessarily looking at him from the jump.
Well also too, it's like she's you gotta figure she's also trained in a way to like spot not the weakness, but spot like irregularities, and like she's constantly dealing with people who either a aren't winning or B she's going
to hand them their loss. Right, So like if you're if you're looking, my dad said something to me once, uh as a kid, he was talking about like like this this thribbing school and like kids that act tough, and he's like, man, the kid who's like trying to fight everybody, the kid who just goes around and it's like his day is going to come because he's winning too much. And there's a guy who wins over there is going to look for him, right, And it's just
what it is. It's like levels of competition. It's like for Sean, she's she spots that she can smell that, right, It's like, hey, what taking down a chemo is nothing. I mean to the point where Chimo's not doesn't even register on her bill, Like he becomes a pawn. That's not something that you take home. That's side a trophy.
You know.
He needs to be used to get a real winner, you know. And so it says what competition looks like and what people that play at a high level what they spot and if you play in certain fields, people
will like smell that out. If Lebron drops sixty tomorrow he's getting that random drug test, like they're like, hey, like you know, like tomorrow, just pee in a cup, man, Like you know, if you go if you go up to bat like we got the World Series coming, Like if every at bat you're connecting, you're getting you're getting the letter the next day, you know, like we're checking and this is a game where we want someone to win,
but you can't win that much. And I think, dude, that says a lot about us, That says a lot about Sean. It's just like, yeah, well we how we regard with you know.
Well, see, Paul seemed to have some kind of formula figured out before he even got to the US Attorney's office. So when he was back in Essex County and he's a prosecutor, at least from what I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong here, jinks Paul had a tendency to do favors for people that could do him favors.
So the the reason why he gets, you know, in trouble and ends up leaving the US Attorney's office is because he becomes a character witness in the trial for two Hama side detectives that appear to have really helped him win cases, right, which is like, first.
Off, dude, like that's the other It's like, Yo, you could resist this, you could say no, but he can't, you know, But yeah, that's exactly what he was doing. He's playing both sides of the law, and I think for him, we're just talking about like, let's say, if not to start like Lebron drug test fumers. I don't know why I said that, but you don't do that.
I don't know that that, babe, laugh out loud.
I think they keep it, you know. But it's like winning within the confines of the of the game, right, like are you actually winning in the courtroom or in the Lebron case, are you winning on the court? Did you do something before the game to win?
You know?
That isn't preparation, did you know? And I think Paul understood that. I think Paul was like, hey, I need to do something outside of this in order to win the weather's trade favors, where it's to leverage people with its intimidation, you know, Like I think he understood how to grease those wheels and move those things. Yes, he's very theatrical in court, and he's very boastful and has a lot of confidence, but that's fueled by the fact that he knows he's got you know, he's counting cards
over here, you know. So I think, yeah, I think what he did outside of court shows what he was willing to do. And it's now that you say it, like I feel like I should look into this. It's like did they vacate those cases? You know, like how many of those cases did they have to go back.
And look at Ooh, And we'll pause here for a word from our sponsors.
And we're back.
Talking about folks like this.
It always kind of brings me back to an inherent distrust I have of people that maybe make the idea of being a defense attorney.
Their whole life's goal.
It just, you know, I know it's required for the judicial system to function, you have to have people on both sides and people willing to represent people.
That seem guilty as sin or whatever. But it just seems like a snake pit.
Like I just wonder what your thoughts are on the profession, you know, of being that kind of attorney, and like if you have a balance from your research as to like what are the good ones look like versus folks like this.
Well, one of my my perspectives completely skewed because for whatever reason, I just I watched Law and Order the entire time, making this for like.
Not even for the helmuch it's like a comfort show is what it is.
It really is, you know what I mean, sprinkle a little homicide on top of you.
Yeah. But by the way, just to plug here, everybody, go listen to Law and Order Criminal Justice System. The first season's out right now on.
The podcast net work or wherever you find your favorite find your podcast skewed.
Okay, I guess I could see why, but maybe please like elaborate.
Well, it's just like because it's always like that thing behind. I mean, obviously it's a totally fabricated show, but it's the conversations bepond that we're not privy to where the person knows the person that representing is guilty. So again, it's so what you're saying, it's just a it's about winning, and the fact that we have a system like that is pretty wild. Where the prosecution's like, hey, we got
to prove this person's guilty. They just did something terrible, and the criminal defense attorney's like, hey, I know you did something terrible. We have to fight a way to beat you out of it. And I think something about that. I can't call it American, but I guess I can call it America. I don't know how these things working in near the country. That's kind of America, Like that's yeah.
There was a question that arose when we were talking about anti heroes at some point and why we wouldn't feel like the bad guy sometimes, and I'm like, that's American, Like, that's that's like cowboy culture. That's you know, really the kid that's that's like American gangster. We woot for that.
Most that's also the revolving door of private and public industry. It's yeah, yeah, like who better to watch the hen House than the former Wolf? You know what I mean? It shows the score.
The New York Times article I remember I found the headline it circulates every once in a while where it's like the CIA find it self not of like planting crack. You're like, oh yeah, like you know, you're investigating yourself.
Yeah, sure, why not.
We've talked about on the show so many times drinks just about how that American thing you're talking about where well, Ben, we always talk about how the United States was formed via conspiracy to rise up against the powers that be right. I mean, that's literally how the country formed, and it just everything then that we create inside it is this way of rejecting and stuff and what.
We define underneath that. Right, So we'll say that something's like fair, and if that's your starting point, it's not until like it takes a long time to question what fair is, Like you like that is not something you think about and you're like ten eighteen. If you think on eighteen, you end up on the FBI watched this. But like if you start, by the time you think about that using an adult of like, wait, what's fair?
He came up with it? We have these systems that yeah, like a criminal defense attorney like what makes you good? And are you good? Because you're like like what is that?
You know?
Like or it's just really a think it goes back to what you're saying, you're good because you win, you know.
And yeah, this gets us to another parallel. I would suggest I'm walking down the street for this one. Is there's something Colonel Kurtz about it, like in Heart of Darkness or Apocalypse Now, because we see Paul Bergrenn he's a prosecutor. Like I was asking earlier Jinks for a formative moment, it sounds like the moment where he's a character witness is where things start to turn on him
with his legal colleagues, the prosecutors. And I love that point you made earlier about you know, technically your colleagues in the pursuit of law are also going to be criminals. So this this then, would this be his formative moment because I believe he resigns from the attorney's office, like just like Colonel Kurtz, his career looks great on paper. I think it was working for Aldo at some point
for Samuel Alito, which is crazy, right right? And is it simply that motivation to win that made him switch sides and play defense.
I mean, I feel like I am just engaging with these thoughts for the first time because I kind of took it as it was as you guys started to bring up the concept of winning. This feels really like the theme. And I know it's like in the trail if he'll do anything to win, but you guys are
saying it, I'm like, oh, like, yeah, he will. And I think what he saw is other people that play similar position on the court that weren't expressing him same like they got in the way of his win, and you know, he resigned, but they were pretty much pushing him out. And I think it's one of those things where you some of you are doing the same thing as someone else, but you revealed you are doing it
for two different ways and for different reasons. And I could see him easily going back and being like what loyalty or when someone is like what we won, you know, and someone's like, no, that's not how he's do it, you know, And or look at all my other wins, why don't they negate this thing? And it's like, hey, you're where lawyers do, like we're a US Attorney's office, Like you're a trip and like you you can't go do that, and these guys, these are the ones that
you're going to do this for, you know. And I think he ran it to the other part of like the American culture, especially when you get into anything and do the like the judicial system or politicians is like, hey, we also have an image to upheat and you're not really one of us. And this was like the moment that we decided you're not one of us. This is where we kick you out the country club. And I think that that is something that we don't really lean
heavily on in Paul's story. But Paul is like the shim humble beginnings. You know, he's he's probably from that world where police and criminals occupy the same bar, you know, like they all drink together, but they go out and go do your own thing, especially you know, somewhere like the Jerdans. So I think that I think he probably had a root awakening there anyone else to be like, hey, it's a lesson to learn, or it's not where I need to be. He's like, fuck you guys, I'm gonna going to.
Get revenge, you know, which you kind of like, as I hate to say it, we're so programmed, but like as Americans, a lot of us listening along tonight, there are several people in the audience who went, I get it. I get it. Yeah, I might not agree, but I've been there.
I didn't know how bad a person I was until I rewatched Breaking Bed, Like it wasn't until we got like I saw where Walter started. I was like, oh man, he really transformed. And then I was like, wait, I didn't stop. I don't think I ever stopped rooting for him, like you know, and I'm not.
Okay, you know, yeah, well I love that Paul did an East Coast Saul goodman. That makes me really happy because that is kind of what he did and I want to get so I want to stay on this track of him doing favors for eventual favors in creating basically a crew of human beings that he knows and he can call upon and he can help out. I want to jump to Jason Itzler.
I think is how you say his name? Yeah, this is a guy that somehow.
Paul meets and gets to know. Because Jason Nitzler is dealing with some legal issues. Paul meets him and figures out, Oh, I think we could have a cozy little relationship here and get into a business venture to talk to us about what Jason Nitzler was doing and how these guys formed a partnership.
Well, Jason's running essentially like this brothel, you know, New York Confidential. And it's funny because I don't know why. I'm like realizing all these things as you guys are talking, I'm like, oh, wait, that that's the show we need.
Uh.
You knows he to lose perspective when you're in it like that.
Yeah, it's like Jason is you know, he's he runs a brothel, which naturally it's going to have you run right up against the law for better or worse, because I can'not even imagine his clients. Hell, how many people were in there that we're supposed to be on this other side of the law, right.
And also the name is a little on the nose, but you know what I mean, like call it it's something different on that.
Yeah, it's not like you know, it's like having you know, like you got like a drug den and like on the athlete just says secrets like the.
You know you go to secrets. Sorry, folks, we're all from Atlanta. Yeah, secret secrets are no fun.
It's like there was a story recently about like a giant bag of drugs that was found that was labeled definitely not a giant bag of drugs along those lines.
Of this, which like if I were a law corse then I found it again, I'd be like you got that.
Yeah, so this this is a pretty crazy story though, Like this is you know, obviously we've got a little bit of levity here, but a brothel being run out of this location.
In escort service guys in Manhattan.
Sure, something confidential. I can't say it. I'm not the judge but the the what what we see here immediately kind of like how you're talking about our FBI agent brocos how you get that spidey sense? Yeah, smell an ill wind. This is a huge red flag to all sorts of other related crimes. Right, And this is why these guys Jason and Paul kind of begin, you know, messing with each other, because, like you were saying earlier, jinks people don't come to him unless they need something.
A few things here, Uh, smell an ill wind, I'm stealing neck. That's amazing. Just imagine like describing someone else that it'll win like that's oh my god. But I'd also say, yeah, you know. And and also I want to go back to that first question, what I would say to someone if they met Paul, because as you're saying, it's like, if you're Jason, oh, Paul's like me, No, it's not. Paul is always going to have the upper hand, right, because Paul plays in the heat. Jason doesn't get afforded
the benefit of the doubt. He was and you're a confidential right, Will Basker doesn't get afore the benefit of the doubt. None of his other clients get afford the benefit of the doubt. That's why they get a lawyer, because the lawyer supposed to have the benefit of the doubt. But because Paul is playing you know, quick and fast with their careers or not their lives, he's able to kind of like permeate these lines to kind of transfer back and forth. And what would you do if you
told your lawyer, You tell your lawyer's secrets. He's supposed to protect you and say he sees his opportunity. So it's almost even different than Sean because he doesn't have to look for it. He's created a shop where you come here to be repaired, and he's like, hey, I'm going to repair you to the public cyber. We're going to use the thing that's broken about you and I'm going to manipulate that from my own game. So you're never going to get away from this thing, you know.
It's I mean, it's like the mob. It's you know, like, hey, Tony Soprano, can you help me get out of this jam? He's like, I'm going to pay this thing, but you're not going to get out of the jam. I'm the jam, you know what I mean, Like you work for me.
Now he has a very different interpretation of atturning clients privilege because now it's his privilege to treat people as a tool for a use, right.
One thousand percent. And he's, uh, it's Sean has a whole other level of privilege because she's the law. But Paul is much more nefarious because he's he's playing both sides in a way that Sean isn't, you know.
Well, and he's now got a brothel which he can use as that tool to coerce somebody into doing something by getting them into a position right where. Oh well, if I you know, if anyone finds out that you're over here insert NBA player or you know, like high level human beings that are rolling through New York Confidential when it moves, what is it it moves to a different location like in Manhattan.
Oh that is that he steals by the way he steals it from Jason and reopens it himself, you know, and then like changes the name slightly. I think it's like New York Confidential, like incorporated. We're like, oh, oh, classy cool.
You know.
It's like when you copy someone's paper and you write the name on the top two and teacher's like, hey, that's try try harder. But yeah, you know, he's he's able to sort of manipulate all these characters. And what's not lost on me is that there's part in the story where we talk about, you know, the cops are coming and they're watching this, They're watching the cops rate them on a webcamera, and I'm like, guys, he's not a webcam, Like, he's got stored footage of everyone that's
walking in this place. And you're coming here for secrecy. You're coming here, you know, to be able to like do of the things you want to do away from it confidentially. Is nothing confidential about security cameras that record what you do. And Paul has access to this, Paul and his crew, so he's never what he says he is.
So to go back to that initial question of what I would say to people that do with Paul's like it's sort of all like them that meme of Jesse and Walter Race, Like he can't keep getting away with this. Paul up until this point will always get away if he will always have the upper hand. Dude, you cannot let your guard down around him.
You know he's big into insurance for sure, right.
Yeah, before you jump away from New York Confidential, do you mind bent Just I wanted to tell you guys the thing I was mentioning off Mike like earlier before, when you look at the address of where New York Confidential moved when it got it was in Hoboken, and then it moved to Manhattan. And when it moved to Manhattan,
the address was seventy nine Worth Street in Manhattan. And if you look at that location on Google Maps, just if you've listened to this show before, and then you go to StreetView and you just turn the street view one hundred and eighty degrees, you will see the AT and T. Long Lines Building, also known at the giant windowless building that's down there in Manhattan. That's the place
where operations Stellar Wind was taking place. When the United States and the NSA decided they needed to do the whole warrantless wiretapping thing during the Bush administration the early two thousands, it was it was happening in that building in that year two thousand and three, at the same time, exactly at the same time that New York Confidential was occurring.
I think it's also really diplomatic that you're putting Stellar Wind in past tense.
Oh no, when it was being enacted for the first time during the Bush administration. It's crazy to me.
Then you imagine, you know, it's funny because even when I found out where Paul is locked up, right, I don't know spoiler, I guess went. I'll think, look, yeah, he's in prison. You know, he's in super max. And I was like super max. I mean, like does that
go for any murderer? And then I realized, like, oh, one, you really can't let this guy near a phone, right, He's like he's compulsive, Like if he gets a phone, you know, what will he do, which is like crazy to think we can't let you get a phone, you know, because you'll try again and you really can't help yourself. And what when you say that, I mean, that's really crazy. Like if I had a guy who you know, it's like, murdering a drug dealer is not quitting in supermax, you know,
by almost on any standards, well like Taverath witnesses. When you add them all up, I could see it, but I think one has catched it to the US Attorney's office just in that that timeline of him. It's like, no, you're not getting back out. We're not, that's not happening. And if you bring up the sella anything, it's like there's a club across the street from work, Like.
Right, yeah, Pads, because like you said, you have to you have to do the most to get in supermacs. And I love the comparison you've made earlier, Jinks, the idea of Walter White, right, uh, a person who is not ostensibly, uh necessarily physically dangerous, right, but who is mentally a super villain. You can't let these people around phones because every especially because they know they already know the inner work prosecution, which is a tremendous power.
And Paul isn't like murdered anyone himself that we know of, but like his crime, same as Walters isn't social engineering, Like he's incredibly good at moving the pieces on the board, and where someone else would see a risk, he just sees a tight window to operate if he were. You know, it's like how like athletes see the field differently, Like
they just see the style of play differently. They don't know what they're gonna you know, like looking at Kyrie Irving dribble, like he doesn't know what he's gonna do fifteen feet away, but he sees an opening and then somehow his learnings, his mechanics, his everything he's built around himself allows him to shoot a gap or move this way. It's all unfolding in real time. I think Paul is a savant. I think he is. I think he is that kind of person where like he puts something in motion,
he can't totally predict it. But how present he is in these moments requires like either an addiction or fascination with this, because everyone's got sleep, and this guy wakes up in crime like at least up here.
You know that's the way, and seeing the field differently is a beautiful comparison. There. It's somewhat terrifying comparison, but I believe it's absolutely astute because the risk calculations are different.
Hey, let's take a quick pause in our conversation with Jinks to hear a word from our sponsors, and then we shall return momentarily.
And as promised, we have returned.
This is where we get to the next act maybe of the slide, because when we're saying he's a savant, which after listening to criminal attorney, I fully agree with we're saying he's a savant. Folks, please do not misconstrue that as us saying he got away. Because as talented and as lucid and brilliant as this guy was, h it seems that things began to go wrong partially due to uh New York Confidential. Oh excuse me, New York Confidential.
Ink. Yeah, you know, yeah, his second attempt. But I think that's the other thing about winning, is like, while you can be talented, that helps him manifest wings, it's it's also the same thing that would's like, you know, it's being an addict. You know, he's addicted to it, clearly, because there's moments where he could stop, Like Jason Hitzler
gets locked right for New York Confidential. Paul says, Okay, let's just run it back, Like what like this guy, the guy you're supposed to be defending, he's in trouble for it, and you said, you know what, this is really good. I'm going to take this, you know, And then he starts kind of losing his powers and his abilities. There's a reporter and catches on and Mike wants to interview him, and he tells a whole lie about being he's given up law and now he's pursuing being a doctor,
Like what like that? That's that's so far out there. That's just such a verifiable lie. That's so dumb. It's you're sitting in class and your teachers like, who has you know, she's going around collecting homework and you you haven't gotten that far. So you're like, it's in my book bag, go get it.
You know, I didn't think the next step.
Yeah, you're just trying to survive the conbo.
You know, speaking of next steps, You've got all of this money that you're generating, and people are coming to you and they're asking you to do stuff with money. What do you do if you if you're Paul and you've got some ideas. Well, let's say you're married and you've got a girlfriend too, and your girlfriend, you and your girlfriend have a condo, and you also own a
restaurant called Isabella's and it's you know, somewhere there in Jersey. Now, look, I haven't spent much time in Jersey except for Elizabeth. I've spent some time over there just through an X and one thing I know, there are so many amazing restaurants. Oh in that part like that one. Yeah, there's this one area like right in in New Jersey there where it's like the best restaurants you've ever been to, at least in my opinion.
Sometimes they're surprised if you walk in.
Yeah, that's the thing. Some of them are doing other stuff, not just making great food.
They're like, hey, when you have a food Oh yeah, we got a couple spots like that in Atlanta. But folks, if you have traveled in the right places or the
wrong places, you know what we're talking about, jinks. What Bat's referencing to something that came up a little while ago on our show, Because oddly enough, you know, the common troop for this is if you catch yourself in one of those restaurants on a good day, service is going to be kind of slow and confused, but it's often really good food too, which is the devil's bargain of the whole thing. You know.
Yeah, you're like, hey, if they raid, you know, we used to have that with just living in Atlanta, you know where you're like you go in the corner store, You're like corner store or drug front, like which one? You know, Like nothing's on the shelves like nothing on the candy bars. Yeah, you're just like all right, guys, like you gotta do what you got at least get in the act of it. By yeah, you have like
some zebra cakes over here, skittle something like something. But yeah, man, wait now I'm talking about food.
Isabella's barberg. How do you wash your money?
I mean one, it's like, definitely get rid of you your confidential ink like that just feels so obvious. But I think it's that other thing too that makes paul a true criminals, Like I don't know if he ever expressed one and get out the game, but you do need an exit plan. Granted he's under Rico charge, so like anything he touches is like not it's it's a wrap.
But you know to yeah, like everything you touched there, it's just a big fishing net over everything you've got going and whoever else you've given money to, especially if they're in your if they're within your employee. But a restaurant, sure, but then you can't go there and like then continue to do drug deals and make fits like you can't like a laundromat, it needs to be a laundromat. You know, you can't then be like, hey, it's a laundromat. Also
like it's a drug front. Like you're you're you're missing the point laundering your money. You're just you're just buying more robbery.
But yeah, Sean Sean said when they eventually went in there, they were like kilos of cocaine just in the back of the restaurant.
It's like, hey, man, like this is to distract them, not to Now you've got an address, You've got an LLC. What the is wrong with you? Like, why are you doing this?
You know it was called Isabella's International Restaurant Incorporated.
But also what a what a great name? Like, you know, it's like a bot of being Isabella's. Like it justems like I haven't seen it, but it just needs to. I can just see it written in script, you know, so.
A little Italy script. Yeah. And because he keeps, because he is doing this thing that continually pushing the envelope, right, He's also we could say, he's also playing some heavy mental parkour, a lot of rationalization for how he will make this feel reasonable. Right, we don't really have an exit plan. We're just swimming further further into the ocean open ocean of crime. It is inevitable that this guy
will get caught. It is an unsustainable, untenable plan. So we talked about you know, coming in to check out Isabella's encountering kilos of cocaine. Would you say this is when the stuff starts to go wrong for him? Is this where the teacher asked for his backpack?
Yeah? And I think this is where he's Uh, it's that moment where you're digging through your backpack yet forgetting doing your homework anymore. You're just like, I gotta do. I need a better line, Like I need something better than this, you know. But yeah, man, he's you know, things start to unravel, and this is where like they're catching it, not just like I mean he's on tape. I think this is where his role again of winning.
I was talking to a musical artists recently. Other they were talking about longevity and how they have to like switch their careers up and how like they start out doing one thing and how they look for, you know, other things in their careers sustain themselves. And I was asking them, like, hey, does winning hurt that process?
Right?
Like if you were selling out you know arenas, or if you had a certain type of song grop making and people loved it. Is it hard to move on?
You know?
Is it like, you know, Green Bay when they've got like Brett Fahr and he's still selling jerseys but they're not winning games. And you got this quarterback on the bench, Aaron Rodgers, like do you let him in? You know, Tom Brady? You know, it's like you had a great game, but I'm sure there was heavy conversation between like do we let Bledsoe back in? This guy won one game? How do you make the justification against the thing that
was serving you versus where you need to go? So I give those like metaphors and parallels to Paul because Paul has won, right, especially in his world and in his mind, he's won, and he's won by, you know, representing people within court. He's won by sort of these
favors and manipulating all these different institutions. And in cruise, I think that's what sort of in Bolden said and makes him think that he's going to be fine no matter what I mean, a student like represent himself in court like, oh boy, that's.
What's that old Mark Twain quote?
Right?
For an attorney? Yeah? Oh man, I still think you know, that's I don't want to sound too crass about it, but that is so damn balzy, you know, like that is something other criminals in this achelon themselves will not do.
But he has been rewarded for that in his world, right, So it's like this reward systeing. He's been winning playing this quarterback and now the games asked for him to do some something different and he's like, nah, I'm not going to bench this play. I'm not going to bench this approach. This is going to work for me. You know, I went triple platinum doing this. I'm not going to try a different style like he's in everyone's saying don't
do this. He has help, you know, like people feel like indebted to him, and you can't imagine the people that are within his yoke right that feel like I'm going to help Paul, right, People that like they could be career suicide and they don't even have to really worry about it because Paul, Paul's versus enemy is himself. And you don't know what you were saying. Again, it's like his desire to win and also like not just win because now I'm like evolving the thoughts not even
just him the win. He needs to win. It needs to be Paul, you know, it can't be someone else that wins and he goes because I don't know if he would have gotten away. I don't see a way he would have, but I don't know. He ended up in super max for racy ten.
Yeah, he doesn't want to set the record for assist.
No. No, I don't want to spoil too much, but just I want to bring this up too, because we're talking about the trials that he ends up being and Paul ends up being in where he's the guy that everybody's looking at. He's the defendant, and he does have help, like I think you talk about John who's a fellow attorney who helps him, and then Larry who's a criminal
defense attorney who helps him as well. But before all that stuff, there's the main trial, the first trial that our FBI agent finally and you know everybody that she's working with, is finally going to prosecute Paul for this. I think it's a murder charge or an attempted or
a conspiracy number. I don't know exactly what the charge was, but the crazy thing I just want to talk to you about is how on earth did the judge decide the people on the law side decide to just go to trial about the homicide rather than all of the criminal activity together because they I think they said, yeah, they told the FBI agent, you can't talk about anything except.
For this murder. They limited the scope.
Yeah. So and again that's like this that really makes you start to bow bowls in this legal system, which in so many ways creates a poll, right, Like he gets his power from this institution. If he were you know, laying bricks somewhere or I don't know, like a football coach, like, would he be able to manifest his power. Maybe this thing is in most people, but we can't access it. Right. That's another thing about like crime is opportunity, right, Like the ability to go do it and people that like
fuelly doing that. So when we talk about these like huge you know criminal you know fortune five hundred CEOs and you know the one percent that are like moving things around, you need opportunity to do that. You need systems at play that you can't fight too hard to do it. You know, obviously there's legal loopholes, et cetera.
But like you ultimately need the run way to take off, and that, to me is a perfect example of how, like I think, like how confusing and flawed this system is, with like archaic ideas of like what makes sense to the point where like they're all actually working against each other but also working in concert with each.
Other in a really weird way and pushing each other too, like enabling. I think that's a brilliant point. The system is creating. The system demands a Paul.
And when you get to it, it's like, okay, if system demand, yeah, system demands, what does that ask with Sean? Right? What does that ask of the FBI? You know, there was like heavy conversations we were making this of like you know, it was Sean a good character, right, Like is she a good person? It's like that's her job, okay, but like why does that job exist?
You know?
Or I remember once I was waiting on the on the subwebs with my boy, and uh, you know, they're like the undercover cops in New York City always gonna be funny because they're always wearing this very cliched outfit. It's always like sports jersey nighties, you know, like baseball cap turned backwards, and I'm like.
All right, but is that real Jakes? Like you can kind of you can kind of point them out literally.
Know they're the guy from the nineties.
Yeah, exactly.
But what if that's just how I dress Jinks and I just like walking around New York like.
That eventually you'll become a cop and you'll be untouchable. You know, like actually the secret way to get by undercover cops if you dress like an undercover cop, like you have to kind of meet them where they're at. But you know, it's like it's like my boy was like, yo, I feel like undercover cops. I feel like that's cheating. And I was like, man, you know, like I never never even engage with that idea before. He's like, I feel like that's not fair, Like they should be cops
and everyone and the people should be criminals. I was like, all right, but what this system asks you to do? And for Sean, you know, it's like she gets a chemo, so either having a gun on you or being kicked at the drug sales is illegal or is it? What
in this case, chemo now becomes a tool in the system. Sure, that's her job, but like, why do why is there a job where Chemo doesn't just serve time and present him as options where like okay with them, like what five years, three years, two years, whatever it was, If that's the crime and that's the time, Okay, you know that's a whole ob argument. But now he's a player in your system and there's no world that this ends up. Yeah, well, then.
Isn't it the same on either side, Like whether or not you end up in Paul's fear of influence or the FBI's fhear of influence, you are continually getting played by a system, and now you are just an integral part of that system. No excuse me, you are a tiny part of that system and non integral at all to its functioning, because anybody else could be you in that scenario.
Cars still need gas regardless of which direction they're driving it is.
They're fuel for the system and both and when you really think about it, neither system that what it portrays to do is doing what it does. Like so we're supposed to end these like drug dealers that are like taking over the city, but Chemo is worth and cost. Is he not a citizen of the city like you know, like or Paul is supposed to be representing you know,
his client. But in the world of that, the client who stabbed his wife, you know, I forget the name, but you know he stabs his wife, so she's already been a victim. The daughter gets caught up because he manipulates the daughter at a young age to testify against the mom. It's like there's no no one's doing what
they say they're doing, right. I'm like watching the news and it's all these like FDA rollbacks and like they're like all these sort of issues with food, and I was just like, man like this, like let's say XYZ Restaurants has been selling as burgers what they're killing people or they're unhealthy. It's like, you're now, the moment that happens, this is wrong. We're like he sell as tires and
the tires are like stripping on the road. Like the moment this happens, you are not competing the mission at hand, but goes back to the original point from earlier. The mission at hand is waning, not making the safest tires or the burgers that are edible, or getting people, arresting people for their crimes, or getting people off of outside of the legal like you know, yop it's uh just winning, you.
Know, bores head Ham.
Sorry for the for the record, that's uh, that's the Vales family, right, Yeah, we're talking about this taping. Yeah, and and Jinks here, we obviously want to go further in depth, but we don't want to spoil too much of the show. Uh, as you can tell, folks, Matt Knowle and yours truly going by Ben for these purposes, h.
We have, we have listened to the show. We are deep into this and I think one of the most fascinating things that we've we've encountered in this conversation is a deeper uh exploration, like we're philosophical at this point about how the system is created. Uh. The show is available now wherever you find your favorite podcast. As we say, Jinks, we have to ask you, what do you hope people take away from Criminal Attorney Man.
I think that like true crime in itself is involving right, Like I think it's like before it was sort of like that find the bad guy or when you watch a even like if you watch like Dahmer, right, it's like he's one bad guy, right, and everyone's like trying to find this person and catch him. No, he's the bad guy, but like you have to find them. I think it's sort a true primelem is evolving. You're finding that there's much more I think you guys need the
word gradient earlier. There's much more shade of grey, right, there's so many more people that are involved that criminals running league with each other, even if they're on opposite sides of the table. And you know this show, you know, thinking about the shard did prior to this with is conviction and then this one criminal attorney, I realized, like how you know, it's like HBO, I'll do like a spin off series like a I gonna do Game of Thrones.
I'm gonna be the House of Dragons. If you have a show like you find one subject in true crimes, probably a spin off of characters that are related to that crime, just because like, okay, we caught the bad guy, all right, next season, what did you do it to catch?
You know?
So I think I hope people see that that, like chron is not a binary, it's it's it's a spectrum, you know, and like how we justify wem to sit on that spectrum, especially when we want opposite sides of it?
You know.
Wow, well, it's been a tremendous pleasure talking to you, Jinks. I really appreciate all the work you've done. Great times. It does make me just worried.
I don't know why.
The show just makes me worried.
I don't know. I mean, I don't know.
I just like, this is what we're all doing.
All right, Cool, that's good New Jersey.
That's the other thing is like this show should make you book a trip to go to Newark, New Jersey. But no, it does, like, uh, the show's entertaining. But if you're if you're like me, I know, my recording producer is a man named Chris, and he's excellent to work with. But Chris, I was like, Chris, we're attacking twenty minutes on every session, so I can like share my fears, you know, like we're living in a wild world, you know.
And we have only touched on very briefly some of your many other projects, Jinks. We've got to say, for anybody who has somehow been under a rock, you do a lot of stuff. We didn't even mention rap Cavir. We haven't even talked about the what is terminators the terminator high Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was looking at those as well. Where can people go to learn more about your work? In addition to Criminal Attorney.
Man, if you are sounds weird because like I kind of jumped all these different things. I'd like, let's telling someone of the day. I was like, I'm not like a cowboy like ride in town. You know, I do my thing and then I just ride off to the
next town. But yeah, it feels honest sad to say Instagram, you know, like find me on Instagram, But yeah, you can find me Instagram at Brandon Jinks b R and Don Jay and X. If you are old than twenty four, you can actually use a website and it's Brandon Dashchinks dot com. But yeah, I try to just bounce around and pick up the following people call and get to boodsciting stuff like.
This, what a ride, folks. Criminal Attorney by Wondery available now wherever you find your favorite shows. We're not blowing smoke. Jinks does many, many things, and I have to say I was tremendously impressed with the philosophical caliber of our conversation.
Well, and the generosity of him and his thoughts and his time.
Given how much stuff he does have going on right, kudos for that, and we really appreciate you joining us Jinks.
Oh yeah, Hey, if you want to do your own research after listening to Criminal Attorney, which is from Wondery by the way, search for Paul pa u l W berg Grin, which is kind of a weird thing to start saying as you like, first say it out loud. It's spelled b E R g r i N.
And if you want to see some more recent projects from our friend Jinks, check out Black Twitter, a people's History. There's so much more to this story of Paul Bergrind and there's so much more to the conversation. We'd love to have Jinks back on in the future. In the meantime, we'd love to have you join the show, folks. We try to be easy through email, through telephone. You can even find us online not the flex.
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