Operation Ghost Stories

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A production of iHeartRadio.

Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Noel.

Our colleague Matt is on adventures and will be returning soon. They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Facan. Most importantly, you are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Noel, you and Dylan and I were talking a little bit off air before we started rolling about a seminal spy show called The Americans, and I think you said you've been meaning to watch it.

It's on my list.

There's been such a glut of really great spy shows and movies as of late, and it brought that one back up for me. But like you know, I just saw a black bag in the theater. It's is very Tinker Taylor Soldier spy kind of vibe. And The Americans, I believe it's an FX series from gosh, it's probably ten years.

I always have spoken on very very highly.

Yeah, yeah, I was surprised by how much I enjoyed The Americans, and I've got to check out Black Bag that's on my list as well. But you're you're absolutely correct there has been this uptick in espionage story spy thrillers because they're great, you know, they're they're candy for the mind. Even now as we realize a lot of spy stuff that you read in fiction or you see in film, it's entertaining, but it's not real mostly well, and.

I think we positive, maybe even on our recent episode on why so many spies are getting caught, that may will be a crossover between the zeitgeist of the spy thriller and all of this kind of you know, spies in the news of late Yeah.

I think you're absolutely onto something there, because maybe the real world events are informing what we see in fiction. And as a result, we got together, you and Matt and I were talking about providing at least one example of a genuine blockbuster spy conspiracy, the type of thing that should ordinarily only exist in the world of fiction. But we're going to dive into the true events that inspired the hit TV show The Americans. This is the tale of Operation Ghost Stories.

What a cool name right, so, but spooky, let's take a quick worry from our sponsor and will jump right in.

Here are the facts. Would you ever be a sleeper agent?

I would be a sleepy agent?

Me too, man, he too especially great?

Yeah, I think so.

It seems like a lot of trouble, a lot of effort, you know, for potentially just getting killed and then disavowed exactly.

Yeah, it's a high risk and we don't know whether there are high rewards. To understand the depth of this bizarre story, we have to talk about what it means to actually be a sleeper agent. James Bond is not this kind of person.

James Bond was in it for the babes man like almost entirely. He wasn't even a very good spot like in the movies anyway, right.

Yeah, he was terrible. He was going around. First off, he was dat he was drinking constantly, if you've ever seen the studies of how often he drinks in film. And then he was telling everybody his real name all the time.

And maybe he thought maybe he could confuse the movie said the last name first, and then the Bond James Bond.

Wait a minute, who is this person?

To your point, He was also very sloppy in his personal behavior, hitting on anything with a pulse, which.

Guy had mad STDs, just saying he was spreading them around.

Yeah, it's really hopefully was using protection, but that's a great point he hit.

Protection for him would be his sweet little nine millimeters.

Yeah, and this we're bringing up this, you know, most famous of fictional spies, because we want to contrast it with actual sleeper agents. These folks put so much effort into appearing really boring, like super if Beije was a person. They want to be a beige.

All right, for sure.

It's the whole ability to blend in and really quickly lest some James bond heads in the crowd yell at me.

James didn't use a nine millimeter.

He used a Walter PP that really cool little compact gun that he was always posing, you know he was using.

Yeah, out of all his gadgets, he loved that little gun.

Really. Yeah.

These these sleeper agents, they infiltrate communities and workplaces. They go about a day to day list of routines and activities just the same way anybody else would. And because they're here's the thing, they're usually not doing any spy stuff for years or decades.

Yeah, that's right. They are playing the long game very slowly.

As we mentioned in our recent Spy episode or Spies Getting Caught episode. They move their way through the ranks of society, whether it be socially or you know, flitting around between different government or industrial circles and just trying to you know, win friends and influence people.

Yeah, and then years or decades down the road, once they've established all these relationships and associations and connections, they might get a signal and should the need arise, they can be activated by their handler.

Yeah.

And this isn't Mansheurian candidate type activation though, who knows, maybe that is a thing. But this is literally some sort of covert message that has transmitted to this individual that causes them to leap into the endgame portion of their plan, whether it be acquiring some sort of device you know, photographs, compromant, whatever.

Right, Yeah, it could be as simple as actively surveilling a target, or like you said, getting maybe the new plans for a jet or some other needo gadget. May nuclear technology for sure, Yeah, that's a great example. Or internal records from a government agency at the more extreme end of the spectrum. They might be assigned to terminate an individual, or to even commit acts of terrorism.

Yeah, terrorism, they wouldn't.

Call it that though, with no no, I don't know what they would call it. Any number of euphemisms, right, So exactly everything escalates at that point. Now, in the ideal situation for these folks, you want the agent to be able to maintain their cover after whatever task they're activated for. But sometimes you are past a point of no return, so the act you commit may burn your identity, and that means you either get caught, like we're saying at the top, or you have to be rescued exfiltrated

Well as it should.

I mean, they know what they're up to, you know. I only imagine that the enemy, or at least the folks on the other side, are up to the same thing, and god forbid, they're better at it than us.

Right right, And this I like that point because maybe it's a fear of inadequacy. On some level, there's a lot.

Of insecurity and an international intelligence.

Yeah, there's a lot of For all that bravado and swagger, they're all just you know, like worrying that the other guys have better toys than they do.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's a lot of insecurity in the world of security and true on many levels. Actually, yes, yeah, I agree with you. This is this leads us to some historical precedence. When the paranoia goes too far, you end up with mass hysteria outbreaks like the infamous Red scares. This is where the authority is carry Yeah, they go completely overboard. Anybody can be a spy, just like during the Inquisition. Anyone could be a witch.

Totally. Yeah, And once anyone can your enemy, everyone is your enemy. You're right, You see or at least you see your.

Enemy in everything or in everyone, And it can really lead to some serious spiraling when you can start mixing in propaganda, misinformation and just hatred and othering. It really can be a pretty nasty situation pretty quickly, oh yeah, very quickly. The US has had more than one Red Scare. Red Scare is an era marked by a groundswell of public fear and anxiety, in this case over the supposed

I love it. Let's yeah, let's put that on the books. Actually, let's make that a thing.

Why not?

To your point, Ben, that's right, the multiple red scares of very I guess there were different shades of red and its Britannican notes the first one of these red scares of varying shades, I guess the first occurred from nineteen seventeen to nineteen twenty, and this is amid an increase in the organizing of labor forces, labor unions, immigration, urbanization, and industrialization. The second period Britannican notes, also called McCarthyism.

You know about that one. That one was real red scary after.

US Senator Joseph McCarthy, took place from roughly nineteen forty seven to nineteen fifty four. And that's the classic example of where we were seeing our enemies in even among our friends.

Oh yeah, this is bonkers. So in each of these cases they just mentioned, we see a clear pattern of overreach. During the first Red Scare, the Attorney General at the time, a guy named a Mitchell Palmer, led a brutal series of raids that were probably unconstitutional against individuals who were usually going to be foreign born immigrants and for one reason or another they were suspected of being anarchist or communist or a radical leftist.

Sorry, dude, the headshake used to do. Just in the clock.

I mean, we're kind of living through another one of these eras right now. Second, just you know, different flavor,

Right, and it will eventually, at least historical precedent shows us that kind of overreach will eventually start touching US citizens.

As well, touching you touching people.

So sweet, Caroline about it toughly.

And not to be alarmist or anything.

I'm certainly not trying not to loose sleep over this kind of stuff, but it's really hard to not see the parallels when you look at these kinds of stories, to not see the parah I did not see that coming, jokesters.

So it is likely in the Red Scares that some of these folks were genuine assets, or they genuinely did want to commit crimes, right, they were a danger to national security. But even if that's likely, it is certain that many more of the individuals targeted were just random, innocent folks. They happened to be from the wrong country, right, they went to the wrong meetings, or they knew the wrong people, even if it was just like their neighbor.

Right.

During the second Red Scare, which is just after the Second World War, at the beginning of the Cold One, the Cold War, America is terrified the Soviet Union might turn the entire world communists. That was kind of that, I hope I'm using this term correct. The fade to complete kind of of the whole situation. It was the lynchpin, you know, Communism was the ultimate fear, and it was used in a way to maybe accomplish some other things, and to get rid of some inconvenient individuals by classifying

Yeah, it was very much a thing where just like the days of the Inquisition, That's why we call it a witch hunt, people had already taken it as a given that the halls of power were riddled with reds. And Joseph McCarthy, who was if whether or not he genuinely believed his claims, he was definitely an opportunist leveraging that public fear and anxiety. So our buddy Heavy Joe starts claiming that their communist sleeper agents everywhere in the government.

Yeah, and we got to root him out, Ben, We got to root him out out and expose them for their treasonous actions. And we know looking back on all of this that this was massive overreach. That sure, there

Yeah.

Yeah, because you can't really, you can't really recover from these kinds of accusations, even if they're disproven, Right, it's still a blemish on your career. So tons of innocent people like you said no, they lost their jobs. There were very few actual convictions and peak behind the curtain, Yeah, right,

Know, we should do we should get the huak to a girl to come talk to us about.

I'm sorry, I had to do it. I had to do it. Do you think we can leeve God can judge me. I don't know we can do. I think she might be available.

I think you know what though, I actually heard that she got cast as herself in a movie.

Well that's great, man, Yeah it was.

It was a big Hollywood job too, So you know, I hope she's okay. That whole meme coin thing really threw her career into a tizzy. She was doing so well, just coasting on that hawk Tua good will, and then.

Had to get into crypto, never get into crypto.

Yeah, I feel like she was misled, oh no question.

But she allowed herself to be the face of this thing that was a genuine, you know, helping dump pump what do they call it a rug pull? Yes, pump and dump scam and then just sort of vanished. So it just I don't know, it was just it just wasn't great. But anyway, we will, we will welcome you with open arms. Who Walktua girl, come talk to us about the house un American Activities Committee, and maybe another one of our colleagues will come to Yeah.

Yeah, And today, with the benefit of retrospect, we can look back and take the red scares for the valuable lesson that they are. They're moral panics, They're cases of mass hysteria. This shows us the danger of sliding into paranoia. And when you let I kind of stop quoting Incubus, when you let fear take the wheel and steer, it can lead quickly to the erosion of the rule of law.

You know what I say, Ben, And I say, let Jesus take the wheel. Yeah, that's what I say.

The world's best uber driver.

He really is. He's so kind, good guy.

Ben.

I got a question, though, what a moral panic is a not a term of abuse, but it is a term used maybe after the fact or in retrospect. You wouldn't call something when you're in it or you're participating in it, a moral panic, would you, because that implies that you're overreacting, doesn't right.

Yeah, it's often so people in say the nineties, with the Satanic panic stuff, they would they wouldn't even call satanic a moral paniciing.

Know exactly what we're doing we're doing the right thing. We're getting rid of these demonic, satanic devil.

Worshipers, right.

Yeah. It's kind of like how no group wants to be called a cult other than that banned the cult.

Do you think that history will show or will refer to some of what we're living through in this era politically as a moral panic?

Absolutely?

Yeah. I just want to you know, again, I'm not here to criticize anybody's political believes whatever. You know, do you but I just.

I think there are some certain uh historical aspects of what's going on right now that are not going to be looked on favorable.

And also, you know, regardless of which administration is in power, factions of politicians will always engage in moral panics because they're great to re election.

Yeah.

It's a way of working people up into a froth, you know, and getting them to kind of a line behind a common enemy. And what better enemy than an amorphous concept that can't exist anywhere?

Right?

Yeah, we love those in the US. As a matter of fact, the only one we had that wasn't super popular was the War on poverty. That one got sidelined, Yeah, war on drugs, war on terror, all the other.

Ones war, they give you power to do other stuff and accomplish other like kind of off the book's aims and the idea of the war. A war on anything just means that we're always at war.

Yes, yeah, very Orwellian. And so the Red Scare teaches us, or the Red scares teach us these lessons. But unfortunately, then as now, these are lessons the US seems to continually forget, and that is something that we all need to think about in the coming years.

Do you think they're forgetting it or do you think they just think they're smarter than the people of the past.

Properly at the top the ladder, but for the public, I think we all forget how easily people can be pushed. That's a good point, you know, that's a good point.

And it's easy to forget the historical precedence, especially when you have someone speaking with such authority and such confidence, who you maybe personally have some skin in the game with, and you've tied part of your personality to this person being correct or this person representing the moral authority.

Do you know what we should do? No, what do you think? Let's play just a brief clip of Joe McCarthy, so we can get the vibe as.

One communist on the faculty of one universality is one communist who many One communist am the American advisors at y'all top was one Communist too many. And even if they were all one Communist in the state department, even if there are only one Communist in the state department, that will still be one Communist.

I'd be behind this guy. He sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

As you said, little authoritative confident, there's a ticking time, Bob, you know, high stakes.

Yeah, And I think this is an interesting point that the idea of a moral panic only being seen as such in retrospect, mass hysteria, et cetera.

But paranoia and prejudice aside. There are absolutely genuine conspiracies and sleeper agents at play, no question about it. And I think we've already alluded to that throughout.

Yeah, we'll pause for a word from our sponsors, and then we're diving into Operation Ghost Stories. Here's where it gets crazy. All right. It's the year two thousand. Everything is different. You can just go and hang out at the airport, you know what I mean.

Man, that was so cool, you could smoke on the airplane. I think we're I think we're cool with that.

Isn't it weird?

Though there were still they're using airplanes that still have little flippy ashtrays like on the seats. I'm only just now starting to see those go away. Have you noticed that a starting to finally, Yeah, but as recently as a few years ago, that was definitely still a thing.

I always feel a little bit I wouldn't say diseased, but I feel I always clock it when I see an airplane that's old enough to still have those ash trays. Yep, And I just keep thinking, what else. I hope they have a maintenance program exactly.

No, that's okay. I hadn't thought about it in a while.

But I'm realizing now that I'm not seeing those as much anymore.

So I think they finally passed a point where they have Okay, guys, we got to get rid of the ash trays. But it was a golden time.

It was a halcyon era around this time, and the store is a bit murky. We'll see why. FBI agents learned that there are real sleeper spies from Russia in the United States. They're posing as Americans and they are you know, this is not Red Scare level stuff. They're not people who just happen to be from Moldova or Belarus or something. They are Russian intelligence officers. They have high level training, and they have ghosted into the general population.

What a sweetheart.

And you know, Ben, I just wanted to take this moment to point out how what a badass and am Operation ghost Story is because it works on so many levels, Like it evokes fear and kind of spooky vibes. But so it's about a backstory. It's about being ghosting your way into this country and then having a convincing and plausible story that you are telling everybody that is forward facing, and that is believable.

Yeah, And the FBI's operation, this was their name, Operation ghost Stories, was the FBI investigation of finding these folks today. I agree with I love what you're pointing out about the levels of the name because as we know, the FEDS don't always knock out a home run when it comes to naming things, but they.

Did pretty well one.

Yeah, honestly, it would have been even cooler if it was the Russian name for the operation, but.

I'll take it.

However, it would have been cooler if it was the Russian name. Yeah, that would have had some bravado, all right. So they found that of these people, there are ten that they identify in the US, and a lot of them are using stolen identities of other Americans with forged documents. They enroll at US universities, they join uh, you know, trade groups like Young Americans for blah blah blah, et cetera.

These are important questions, Ben, and then the answer is all of them, right.

This is the weirdest thing to mean. No, the FBI, we still don't know how they came across this. It's

We just say that the idea of child sleeper agents is particularly interesting and troubling.

And I don't think we do that. Do we do that?

I don't think we have children spies in the United States.

Not to my knowledge, in recent history. I think, well, I think one thing we should we do have to point out is I'm sure a kid could be this ethically fraud, but I'm sure a kid could be used as an informant device. Yes, yeah, And I know, well, from what we understand with deep cover sleeper agents from regardless of where they're from, if they have children, they're usually not letting the children in on the game. The kids are innocent bystanders.

Okay, maybe all right, I'd have a hard time believing that that's true every time, but anyway.

I'm sure. I mean, in the show The Americans is a light spoiler. The spies in question do have children, and a large part of the family drama piece of this is.

Children finding out and they have to say, I believe I've watched the first episode or I watched no of a different thing in a movie or something where all of a sudden, it's like we've been made. We have to fly the coop. And now only now do the children know something weird.

Has been going on? Right, like the Black Widow movie.

That was it? Thank you Ben, that was what it was. That was exactly what it was.

I mean, can you imagine just all right, It's as any parent knows, it's already tremendously stressful to shepherd your kid through adolescence and those awkward teen years. So what if on top of that, on top of all the hormones and the you know, the the challenges a young kid faces growing up. On top of all that, at some point you're probably gonna have to tell them that you're a spy to right.

Yeah, And I think I was baby barking up their own tree with my initial line of questioning, because perhaps the Russians also do not do child spies. So I was not trying to be like, we have some sort of moral high ground here, but if it's being done anywhere, it's likely being done here as well.

We don't know about it.

So yeah, no's that's a good point, and I think it's important that you make it. But also I don't want to sound too cold war hawkish, but I do think, well, we know for a fact much deployed Russia has a different set of rules, They have a very different philosophy.

I think it's entirely.

Possible, and there we say plausible that there haven't been knowing uses of children for spying purposes.

Uh huh, as unclean as it is the US during this multi year investigation, they started internally referring to the suspected sleeper agents as the illegals program now all at all. In twenty ten, they made eleven arrest ten we're in the US, and one was all the way out in Cyprus. That guy's really interesting. The eleventh dude, Christopher Metzos, he was sort of their money guy. He flew to the

And Ben, can I just say, I just googled child spies and there are a lot of agencies or organizations that are out there trying to prevent the use of child spies.

Oh wow, so it's a known issue.

Why using child's as children as spies?

It's such a bad IDEA High Court rules against just for Kids law and challenge to use of children as spies. The judge ruled, despite the self evident dangers to children, the current guidance is not unlawful.

This isn't America, y'all.

This reminds me of a child soldier, That's what I'm saying.

That's not that different.

They're absolutely in danger in a similar way, even if they're not like on the front lines, like you know, killing people.

They are, you know, playing a dangerous game.

It's a good way to move communications too, write to use a kid as a.

Courier always has been. Yeah, I mean, you know, in like old school like conflicts.

And we know Afghanistan in particular has an issue with this. These folks, some of them do have kids. But the folks in the Illegals program that are the target of Operation Ghost Stories, they're all adults. Will will give you their names, and just to be clear, a lot of these names are fake. The suspects are Juan Lazarro real name, Mikhail Antoleyevich Vasenkov I butchered that one, Vicky Pelez, Donald Heathfield, real name Andre Bezlkov, Tracy Lee and Foley, very American

Oh it's beautiful. I love Russian names.

This child spy thing has got me going down a rabbit all then, I'm actually realizing that a lot of this is in the UK, and the language of the laws in the UK are conducive to allowing child spies, and that's what was shot down by the High courts. But if they're doing it in the UK, you know, the they're doing it here, you know it.

Well, it's like assassination. If a tactic works, then everybody who can deploy that tactic is going to give it a go.

You were you were listing off some names, Ben and I got I was distracted down the child spy Rabbital, but I believe you left off with Yelina Vavlova a ka Lee Ann Foley, which is your right then it sounds like aunt LeeAnne from from Durham. You know. We got Richard Murphy also very just quintessentially American name aka Vladimir Guriev Cynthia Murphy, his his wife aka Lydia Guriev. And we've got Michael Zatoli A k al Kutzik.

And then Patricia Mills real name Natalia Para Verzeva. That's close to that.

Well, that's easy to want to insert another ev er kind of combo in there.

Para vera Zerra.

Yeah, that's fun to say.

And then there's Mikhail Simenko and most famously Anna Chapman. We mentioned that the eleventh man out there in Cyprus who escaped around the same time, there was a Russian national who was working for Microsoft in the US. He was apprehended, and he was deported on July thirteenth, twenty ten, so a little bit before the big arrest. We got to be honest with you folks, Even just based on publicly available knowledge, this does not seem to be a red scare. It does not seem to be a witch hunt.

It's a cover, unto itself, the ultimate cover, because you like, like I think maybe the fact that we spent so much time talking about the idea of child spies and how abhorrent that would be is the whole point, because no one would suspect, you know, a lovely, loving couple with their small children, because who would do that to children?

Who you know?

We would? Uh we neat America? Yeah not Nolan and Dylan and myself or I don't know, Dylan. Where are you at?

Which I mean you get in situations, Ben, I'm going to quote you back at.

You you do get in situations. Dylan is not going on record, he's not taking the bait. Well played, mister Fagin. So okay, man, this is this is true right even we had to take pains to point out the danger as a paranoia because it can go wrong so quickly.

I do it sometimes just for funsies, just by myself and just sit there waiting for you know, my contact who never arrives. And then I go home and cry into my pillow.

And what language do you cry it?

I just say, yeah, yet that's Russian for now?

Yes, yes, So they found that these Russian agents would communicate with their handlers or with the SVR proper using messages hidden in digital photographs or things written in actual disappearing inc Yeah.

Yeah, which is a thing we talked about the Spy Museum that we all went to and hung out at in DC.

Is that where we went, Ben?

Yes?

Yeah, Wait there was another one though, Wait it was We haven't been to DC together, have we?

No? But I think we went to that same museum, just at different times.

I think it was a different time. But then there was the Mafia Museum. That was another one. But gosh, I swear we've been together, but it doesn't matter. There is an incredible spy museum where you can see a lot of the kind of tradecraft stuff that we're talking about here, like how invisible ink is made and deployed and listening devices and things like that. So if you're into this stuff and you want to see some irl, highly recommend checking that out.

And these guys are using real old school stuff we talked about dead drops. They're also doing the thing, oh man, this is what are those pranks that we just have to do one day. They're doing the thing where you get two identical bags or like a valise or a suitcase and then you switch them when you meet and

Oh we must, we got we gotta meet our dead drop.

We've returned.

All right.

The next thing is as we mentioned previously. The next thing is proving that these assets are functioning under their own free will and that they know what they're doing, right, or they're aware of their position, because it's not impossible that someone could be accidentally working for a spy group and they don't know it, you know what I mean? They just know some guy named Jeremy has blackmail on them.

You know Jeremy.

Yeah, you know Jeremy.

What's he got on you?

He's got nothing on me, man, We're just old friends.

That's called Jeremy's a bit of a rap scallion. He's a bit incorrigible.

Yeah, he's a sort of a Maverick character. So all right, So the FBI has to prove their case in public too, because you know, we know that the FBI in the past has run into serious controversies and accusations about so called witch hunts. So a year, about a year after these arrests in twenty eleven, the FBI says, okay, everybody, here's a ton of evidence that these are actual spies.

This is the line being fed to the public. Or Okay, yeah, so don't worry about it. Everything's cool. We might have missed this for like a really really long time, but now we're on the case.

Then nothing bad happened.

Exactly exactly. So they said, yes, these guys did get some info, they did talk back to Russia, but mainly what they were doing is the is something we call and assessing. This is where spying turns into like a multi level marketing scheme.

Okay, explain, I don't think I understand.

So spotting and assessing this is where you identify a colleague like a coworker or someone you know through social circles, et cetera. And you ask yourself, could these people be vulnerable targets for baby a honeypot operation, distortion threats.

Yes, blackmail, whether it be extorting you know, money or influence or whatever it might be. I guess it wouldn't be money though exclusively. It would always be some greater you know, puppet string kind of maneuver from Moscow, right.

Yeah, like access information right. And and then the the real golden goose is determining whether you can co opt someone to knowingly become a spy. As that's the multi level marketing.

Then you got to you've made a new asset. Yeah, I understand what you know.

It's weird. I hate how accurate the MLM comparison is. But no, this is where the FBI and their statement references a precedent we talked about in previous episode, the Cambridge five.

Ah, yes, the Cambridge five.

Perhaps the most famous example of this tactic can be found in the Cambridge five.

This took place in Great Britain.

Soviet intelligence talent spotters like you're referring to Ben. This is from the FBI themselves, by the way verbatim with you know, styling on it a little bit. These talent spotters were able to recruit Cambridge University students in the nineteen thirties, including futures by Kim Philby, who would later rise to power in the British government and becomes Soviet operatives during World War II and into the nineteen fifties.

And they functioned to your point for so long successfully and we still I remember we were talking about this earlier and you started calling it the Cambridge plus or minus five.

Well that's because, like I think there were more.

Five was just referring to the concept of it. But there were some that are like undocumented or rather have not been publicly named.

Yeah, what do we say? They started as the Cambridge four. They found like a.

Ska band, doesn't it, Like wearing rude boy shoes and like skanking, you know, to saxophone music.

I you know, I oh my sky years, your sky years?

Ben Bowl in the sky years? Did you have checkerboard pants? Dance that you don't have dance?

I want to sometimes though in the public if anybody isn't old like us and doesn't know what that is. It's a dance move associated with ska music where you kind of scissor your arms and legs sort of back and forth in different directions, with kind of a cool swagger to it, right, Like it's I always thought it was cool, but now, looking back kind.

Of looks ridiculous.

Did you did you have a scoff face?

Not really.

I was in a punk band for a while, and I did wear I remember going to a thrift store with my older than me punk friends and getting my first pair of thrifted like punk type outfit, you know, And it was like the pants were old man golf pants kind of, but they were absolutely like I had a tartan kind of pattern on them. And then I had some Doc Martins and I think I wore a dog collar for a hot minute.

There bn not gonna lie time.

Nice And you know, it's a good memory to have, right.

I think these photos floating around out there somewhere, maybe I'll try to find a few and show you, guys.

And that will take careful planning. The Feds were also all about careful planning. They didn't that.

Was a stretch band.

But I stretch I get that.

I appreciate this.

Yes, they're they were intensely planned. It seems counterintuitive to say, Okay, we know these folks, right, we know their intent. We know that they are actively doing stuff or they're sleeper agents and they may be activated at some point. So why did they hold off on arresting them?

Oh, but you need to answered your own question.

And I think it's like, you know, we we buy it our time, We watched and see what they know and what they find out, who they have access to, and in doing that, you know, we could learn a lot about maybe our flaws and maybe find some folks on our side.

Who are you know, need to be rooted out. Because again, the whole.

Red Scare McCarthy ism thing, I think that's what most people think about when they think about this era. But to your point, Ben, I mean, the folks that aren't just out gabbing to the public and making a big witch hunt like McCarthy, They were having to deal with actual effects, you know, sleeper agents and folks that were you know, intending to do harm or to compromise the integrity of you know, the sovereignty of the United States.

And we don't know how long the FBI investigation would have lasted, like how long they would stretch it out searching for more agents, more evidence. Because they had to move quickly, they intercepted we believe they intercepted a phone call on June twenty sixth from Anna Chapman to her father, veteran KGB agent working in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

And this also reminds me of a plot line and another quite excellent in my opinion, at least the first season spy show. It's a Taylor Sheridan series called Liones with Zoe Saldana, and it really shows the military side of this kind of stuf and these kinds of operations.

So do recommend Lioness.

Feels like a very tense job.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Nicole Kidman is in it, and it was one of the high level of folks in the US government. And I think she's really really great in the show. She's a handler, like a high level handler of some of these basically folks on our side who are turning people close to political targets, whether it be girlfriends or wives, specifically women in this case that's the Lions program into assets in order to gain access to their spouses or fathers or what have you.

And it's very interesting.

Yeah, I can't wait to check it out. We know that this raid, these arrest when they happened, they happened suddenly, and the FEDS come down hard. There are raids all on the same day in Boston, Yonkers, New Jersey, and Northern Virginia. And there was no evidence that these suspected agents all knew of each other. The only ones who definitely knew of each other were folks who were spouses exactly, although that'd be funny if they were both Russian spies and they didn't know the other one.

Was holy crap. That's the plot of mister and Missus Smith.

Yeah, they're assassins, right, yeah, and they.

Don't yeah, and they don't know, and they're both sleeper agents essentially who are turned against each other. And the Donald Glover Mister and Missus Smith TV series excellent.

Really, really good. A lot of people slept on that.

Sorry so as The Guardian would later go on to describe it as the FBI's biggest known breach of Russian intelligence communications. The Feds, uh, this is the Guardian speaking. Read there decrypted their intel, read the embedded coded text on images posted on the net.

I love what they're calling it, the net bug.

Their mobile phones videotaped the passing of bags of cash and messages and invisible ink from one agent to another, and hacked into their bogus expense claims.

Ben.

This is a very two thousand uh sentence.

They just love the net. Uh huh yeah. Yeah, it's like that movie Hackersrite Tensions.

Yeah. Twenty ten.

This was written this opinion piece on Russian inspiring Russian Spies Bungle was epic by.

David Hurst from The Guardian.

Yeah, I think we got to shout this one out because I in particular love some classic British snark as well as it's got directed at us.

For I couldn't handle it. I would crumble.

Yeah, like I I can't watch Peep Show without pacey uh, just because of the snark.

For some reason, that one does it for me. That one's a comfort show for me. But there are certain British shows that are just so uncomfortable and awkward that it just makes you kind of tense up and like, yeah, need to I cover my eyes at cringe like I would a horror movie sometimes.

I don't know if you felt that.

Yes, yeah, And I've seen horrible, horrific things in real life and dealt with those as they came. But for some reason, watching David Mitchell yet again sabotage a romantic relationship is just horrific to me. It's horrid.

I'm with you, I get I get where you're coming from.

That.

Yeah, Britain. Well yeah.

In the review of the Spy Group's methods, they refer to the tactics as being amateurish refer to one skin as in the title is bungling on a massive scale. You know when I say, I say bring back the word bungled, bungling, nobody says bungling anymore.

I like it. It has a certain new mommy to it.

Let's make it a noun. I think that's quite a bungle.

What a bungle?

Yeah, one of my favorite bands is mister Bungle, so I'm with you. They go on to have a spiring uncovered before they could actually do any serious spying is doubly embarrassing.

Ooh, the snark that's cold. That's cold, So.

It's both cold and it burns.

Yes, yeah, icy hot.

This is.

Again, as we'll see, it is in step with the FBI's official line. Right, we caught them before something terrible would have happened. So what happens to these folks now? The one guy in Cyprus, he escapes. The other ten are in US custody. They're busted, and Reuter's reports on July seventh, twenty ten, just a few days after the arrest, Russia and the US hatch a prisoner swap deal, the biggest of its kind since nineteen eighty six, we're trading our people back and forth.

So the ten individuals are arrested as part of the illegals program at age as well would be deported to Russia in exchange for individuals whom Russia convicted of espionage on behalf of the US and the UK. And like you said, man, this is something that has often done, these prisoner exchanges. It is a bargaining chip type situation in the world of tradecraft. It's it's yeah, and it works, but it is also interesting because it's sort of it's sort of like a no harm, no foul kind of

Come to nothing exactly.

That's what I was butting up against. Thanks man.

Yeah, yeah, it's it can feel that way. But we have to remember, you know, by the time these ten spies get back to Russia, they've been thoroughly interrogated. They're squeezed dry like a lemon. You know. If the US thought there was more to be gained from them the

You need a lie, a deception, a prevarication.

Now it's Joe, sir. I don't mean to be jaded about it.

It's just kind of like, this is why we do this show, y'all. I think it's really hard to believe at face.

Value what any government says.

Ever, whatever the administration, whatever the political climate, it's just it's it's a game that's built on a mountain of bullet Yeah.

Yeah, and that is a broad brush that we are more than comfortable painting with because it has never not been true broad brush of bullet. Right. So there are happy endings for some of these spies. Anna Chapman in particular becomes a sort of celebrity. She heads a youth council, She becomes a model at fashion shows. She even runs her own TV series. Things worked out well for Chapping.

Did they go to like the premiere of the Americans?

That'd be amazing, But I don't think they're I don't think they're traveling back to the States.

Okay, fair enough, Yeah, that would have been cool.

Though you don't make a special dispensation for an appearance.

So it's a close call, and you know, the FBI considers it a success story. They busted the conspiracy. There are some great in depth reports about this fantastic documentary. In this case, it seems that the good guys won, but that's not quite the end because the discovery of a group like this, even if they were a bungle, it leads us to some disturbing implications. I mean, no, we only caught these folks because they screwed up.

That's right.

And again, we just did an episode about this kind of rash of spies getting caught and spies screwing up our spy, our spies getting works.

What's going on?

To your point, band, the implications there can be pretty disturbing. This means there's a non zero chance, as you put it, ben of a more competent network out there potentially the one that didn't get caught, and that's part of why the FBI isn't exactly being entirely forthright about how they went about identifying this ring, which totally makes sense.

Yeah, because you don't want the other if there is another gang out there, you don't want them to know how you catch your rabbits.

You call this a cell, right all the cell.

Yeah, they they definitely were grouped under the same umbrella in Moscow, but they did not you know, they didn't have group meetings with all times.

Isn't that the point?

Like a cell, they're they're siloed by nature, they don't know about each other, but they're kind of doing the same thing and it's sort of a numbers game, right.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah, they're decentralized, which is a really smart thing to do. And second, this might disturb our international listeners. These tactics and these groups are not limited to the US. I know Russia has done this in the UK. They're messing around in Australia. People are trying to get in where they fit in. They're likely occurring around the world right now, and some just haven't been caught because in a very real way, to our Russian friends. The Cold War never ended.

No, it didn't.

And can I just say Ben that your name on our video chat today is Ben exclamation mark, which you would say just as Ben, And.

You're making me feel that way today.

Very exclamatory and excited to be talking about this topic with you, as dark as it may be, and the implications being what they are, and you know, as rough as things might feel out there for some of us, many of us in the United States, it's good to know that you're in a good mood and you have my back.

Well.

Who knew that a small piece of punctuation could make such a positive difference. Yeah, you and I have had candidly pretty rough weeks and we're both very happy for Friday, and folks, we're so happy that you took the time to join us. We will be returning in the future with episodes on things like diplomatic immunity or shock doctrine, and then we'll have some paranormal mixed in there too. Or takeaway here though to your earlier question, is our

Or a sleepy agent?

You know, a sleepy agent.

Do you sleep with a stuffed animal?

I do.

I'm not gonna lie. I love a stuffed animal. My house is full of them.

I had a house cleaner come over once and ask me if I had lots of small children.

I don't. They're mine.

Good, draw the line in the sand there, no, and let them know what's what. In the meantime, we want you to let us know what's what. We love your input on this. We'd love to hear your stories and you know, build out your sleeper agent or sleepy agent persona. Tell us all about it online via email or on the phone.

It's all right.

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