EP 248 Unlocking Your Inner Creative - Insights with Rich Kirkpatrick

And welcome to this holiday edition of Stuck in My Mind podcast. I am your host, w I z e, and my guest is a creative and author. I'm really excited to have him so we can have a great conversation. Welcome to the show, Rich Kirkpatrick. Glad to be here. Oh, pleasure's all mine. Thank you for I know it's thank you for being here on especially on this holiday. I I greatly appreciate it. You could probably be out barbecuing or whatever, but thank you for for stopping for,

stopping by. It's my pleasure. We got Chinese food instead. I know because, you know, that's celebrating. Yeah. We we couldn't barbecue. It's raining over here. So Oh, okay. Yeah. I I made the wife some fish, I don't know, some shrimp tacos, and and then the kids had nuggets and French fries. Well, that sounds good. I'm coming over next time. Alright. So let's jump right into this. Can you share your journey and what led you to focus on creativity and leadership?

Creativity and leadership. Well, I was raised in a pretty strict religious household. People who loved me, my mom, she loved me so much. She's and, no longer with me, so I'm still grieving that. But so I started you know, She was a single mom with 3 kids. I was still in the oven when she was on her own and on welfare, and she had walked I don't know how far it was. My brothers would tell me to get 4 eggs and a cube of butter to to. So, you know, grew up, you know, pretty poor. And she

eventually remarried a guy and, was cool, cool dude. That was our stepdad, which is kind of was a nice part of the story when I was about, like, 6 or 7. But there's this kind of idea that, you know, don't trust your emotions. You're kind of this religious environment of don't, you know and my mind and emotions are all over the place as a kid. I almost dream with my eyes open. I could see things. I could just it's just like just a natural born, I guess, what now I would call a creative person.

But back then, it was like, no. You can't do that. You can't trust your feelings first. You have to put them behind whatever list of things. And, you know, I don't, hate on anybody necessarily, except that, you know, my journey had been as I became a musician and got involved in jazz music, and it was about breaking rules. It was about seeing things and hearing things. You weren't here. And I can remember, like piano teacher, you

gotta be like Chick Coreo. He says, if you don't hear it, don't play it. It's like, I gotta hear it. So I gotta listen to all these different recordings and stuff on cassette tapes and LPs and just, like, just absorb it. And so my journey is, you know, up to get to high school was in some award winning music groups. We won Downbeat Magazine's award 3 times as a high school student and once as a college student or a music school student. And so I was like, this is something I

love, and I had to justify it with my background. Like, wait a minute. What there's an internal conflict that was created from that. And you know, and even the idea of being an artist or a musician was, oh, no. What are you really gonna do? You know? Richie, why don't you just go drive a bus? What are you worrying about? Why are you practicing piano so much? And Right? Like, most days, it was more it was, yeah. Why don't you get a public service? You go become a trash guy. It

it was it was the it wasn't go ahead. Live your dreams. It wasn't like if you felt like I wanna be an actor. No. Like, you need to go to school and get a trade or something and then get a job, and, yeah, we come from a different generation. We come from a generation where we weren't like, emotions. That's something we weren't that's something we we rarely talked about. That was something like you, I was raised by a single mom. It was 6 of us. And she walked everywhere. My mom walked

everywhere. She just she passed away this February. So just like I'm still I'm still grieving that. But, it it was a different time. It was definitely a different time. For me, I would for me, it was I was lucky to be raised by a single mom because she showed me kindness, empathy, and all these different things. But for the most part, it it was, the men don't cry. Men don't share emotions. Men don't share feelings.

So if you yeah. If you want that for your job, then you gotta be crazy. If you wanna do I mean, it's like, you know, my mom, she'd walk everywhere too. In fact, it's hard to keep up with her, and she's so little. And I'm and I'm, like, 5 11, so even as a teenager, like, I can't keep up with mom. You know? It's just that and that's some you know, single moms who take care of their kids, there's a certain superpower that they just channel that that is

amazing. And so, yeah, the things you're mentioning, that's so true. Empathy, my mother's the most merciful person that I've ever known. She could show mercy to people. She could forgive because she had to forgive every single day. She was left on her own. She was everything is taken from her. And, you know, so but that was kinda like so I wanna be this dreamer. Right? And I wanna be this this artist, this person who can make music and who can do do things like

that. And to do that, you have to channel all those emotions and good and the bad. And that wasn't as appropriate. And and it wasn't done out of, unkindness. It was really just that was the way. You know? I'm trying to do best for you, Richie. This is you know? Don't be and, of course and and our birth dad was a musician, so that might have something to do with it. Like, don't be like him. And she would never say anything bad directly, but anything that was

kinda like connected to that was hard for her. Yeah. And so so anyway, so that was that kinda led me think, well, I wanna understand this more because I never really did, and I wanna be able to honor the people I love at the same time and not just be reacting to it like, oh, no, poor me, because I had a lot. I was given so much. Okay. So so how did growing up in a strict environment shape your views on creativity? Yeah. I had to discover it late in life, meaning what it meant, like things that's

normal to have dreams. It's normal to, you know, feel things. It doesn't mean you, are necessarily a bad person even if you feel. That's part of imagination. That's part of making good choices is is using your mind to think, okay. What if I choose this? And, you know, you could write a whole story. This is where, you

know, some fiction writers are great. They can write a whole story, and it, you know, it just unpacks all the things that could go bad or or or wrong or in a direction that's you know, you get to try on a character, in other words. And so creativity that really got me more interested, oh, this is okay to do that. It doesn't mean I'm necessarily making those choices, but I could pretend I'm making those choices to see what it

would be like. And that's what business people do. They test market stuff. So this is a normal thing I found out. And so as I've discovered this, I well, I wanna learn more about this. I and, used to drive for Lyft and and when I lived in LA. And, the precarious drive to the LAX airport, which is terrible drive. It's the worst thing. But I had got to meet people because you're stuck in traffic for, like, an hour just, you know, moving 2 miles or something

like that. And, so I tried the idea about creativity because I'm meeting people from, you know, SpaceX people that work right near the airport there to movie makers and all sorts of folks. And it just was kept feeding this, idea of, well, I wanna uncover more of what this is because these people, they they understand it, and they're all, like, saying to me, yeah. You gotta do that more, Rich. You gotta go kinda check that out. Go learn more.

So what, so so what are some of the common misconceptions about creativity that you've encountered? Well, one thing for sure is that some people, we think, or they think themselves that they're not creative because they might do it differently. They may not be like artsy or something, and so they figure, well, that's that's what creativity is, but creativity really is what what people do when we thrive. When we have food and we're not living with violence and when we're able to thrive as a

human being, we're gonna be creative. We're gonna, try something new to barbecue. We're gonna try you we're gonna expand ourselves. We're gonna grow. That's what a human condition. And so really, creativity is all about us being that better human being who's gonna make things, who's gonna make a life even, let alone a song or a book or whatever, that's cool too, but it's really more than that. I think it the reason we like artists is

because they show us a level of creativity that inspires us the things that we wanna do in our own lives, And it might just be a new rub for a barbecue or it might be a business plan that we've never really kind of finished putting together. So that's how I look at creativity and why it just really struck me as, okay, this is more than just you know, me being a musician and learning how to create music. This is about people doing what we're all wired to do. And as I read the science, these

scientists are saying, hey, our brains are wired for this. And so you might think you're not creative, but this is how all of us are. And the fact that and one of the myth is that, you know, it has to look a certain way. And that's why I have a robot and a wizard character in my book because those are the two sides of creativity. It's like some are more like process oriented. They're more like organized, which I'm not, so that's the robot. And the wizard's kinda like

gets up in the middle of the night, and they run with an idea. And scientists have shown that no matter who you are, you're gonna end up walking through a similar process called creativity, and I just think that's awesome. And,

I've I've played sports my whole life and and everything, and but when I started pod like, I've never considered myself a creative person. I've never thought I was creative or I didn't and it was that but it's not that I lacked imagination because I I had a a a a very active imagination and everything like that, but I didn't consider myself a a a creative person. And then I started doing my podcast, and I'm like, what is all these what is all

these ideas that are coming through? And it took for me to find what I was pretty good at to to really consider myself creative, to really find out that, oh, I am a creative person. I I do create stuff. I I am capable of doing this. And it it took me 40 something years to figure that out. And here you are, and it's it's just great to discover that. I think the idea of aptitudes, the things that are in us that we haven't discovered yet. So now I'm, you know, I'm in my

fifties, so I'm really old, but I'm learning new stuff. I'm thinking like, hey. This is great. Now if I would, like, give myself permission at, like, 20 to think you can still keep learning and be bad at something, that's okay. I I don't know what I could have accomplished, but I'm not done yet. And that's the whole point is the opportunity for any person listening to

this is that you can discover aptitudes in you. And sometimes it's just learning something that you're never gonna be the expert at, but then you might discover, like, you have podcast. So wait a minute. This is something that really vibes with who I am, and I'm able to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And that that that saying you can't teach old dog new tricks, that's completely a lie. It is completely a lie. I I'm I'm I'm more close to the 50 then than anything. I'll be I'll be there in

a couple years. So for people to say that, oh, when you're old, you're not creative. That's that's not the truth. We're still I'm still learning and and growing and developing. And by by me actually going out and and starting to do the podcast, I've probably grown so much in the last 4 years since I started the podcast because of the people I've been able to interview and then the conversations I've been able to have have helped me just just realize that,

man, I'm I got so much more to go. It's like, I'm still I'm still young. I'm still learning at this age, so there's still a lot of things for me to do. I I think that's absolutely true. Now I don't know if anyone here maybe you're even older than me, you know, of the singer Tony Bennett. Yes. I know Tony Bennett. Tony Bennett. Let my heart in San Francisco. I live in the Bay Area, so it's like, that's a cool song, one of my favorite songs.

But, anyway, he's he was, of course, a great singer. And I remember, in high school, we had this that group was telling me about. We got to see him with just a few other kids, and he talked to us. And he was just he, like, he was vibrant learning, and he was only in his fifties or whatever back then, which was a long time ago. And but then he learned how to paint, I think, what, age 60, I think it was, and became this incredible painter.

And people said, well, who's done that? That's a that's a really cool painting. He just said, I wanna learn something new, and and, I don't know if he was on a tour bus and just took his easel and his paintbrushes with him or what, but he here's a singer who obviously was an expert at singing, and and he's now was a painter at the end of his life as well. And but and and the amazing thing about him was was he he worked with a lot of younger

artists. Oh, yeah. Even even later on in in his career, he he worked with Lady Gaga. I worked with so many other younger and he introduced himself to a whole new generation by doing this. By by by working and connecting with these younger artists, he got to introduce himself to that generation. Even though I I've known of course of course, I've known about somebody by the almost all my life, but it's

he just knew how to evolve. Yeah. And that's that's the thing is we when we create something, one of the things I learned is at least the scientists kinda you you're not the same afterwards because you grow into a different version of yourself, a more evolved version of yourself. And so someone you know, he didn't have to do that in his age. He could just spend his money and been boring, but he says, no. Imagine how much fun he had being being able to hang with, like, Lady Gaga, for instance.

Yeah. Why is it? So how how can someone who believes they are not creative unlock their creative potential? Well, 1, you gotta have what, I guess, simple way of saying is an open mind. So there's there's 2 basically I mentioned the robot and wizard. So most people are naturally robots in our society. That's 80 percent of us. And so we're just trained, like, you know, we gotta find that one answer. And the wizard, you know, few of us, 20%, we kinda fall on

that. So how how you'd learn that is it's discovering that you do have that wizard in you. So if you're the robot and you think, okay. I may not feel like I'm an artistic

person or a creative person. It may be just being how do I then get my mind open like the artist does, like the the wizard does. And one thing you can do is is to explore curiosity as a practice. And I remember as a kid, before Gameboys, on the family road trips, our stepdad would take us in this big old station wagon with a tent on the roof, And you're going, like, miles and miles. You know, driving up California takes forever.

What we do is we'd look, okay, what how many out of state license plates can we see? You know, by that time, there were 5 boys of us kind of sitting in the car, and so we had to do things to not fight. So that was one of the things we did. We so but that curiosity, as soon as you start seeing 1 or 2 of those out of state plays, you start seeing them all the time. You got you could see them faster. Yeah.

So so that's one way to train your brain. It's kinda like, you know, a stretching exercise or whatever to get you to start using your brain like the wizard does, which is just open to more things coming in. But it's not mindless. It's not saying I'm giving up all that. And that's the other thing people think is, like, it's gotta be like this whole completely different person. You have to trust that inside of you is that creativity. So to unlock

it is just basically saying, okay. I'm going to practice that curiosity, and then you can end it and say, okay. That game's done. You know all the license plate. What else do we do now? And so that's kinda how creativity that's why I call it bridging the science and magic in my book. Yeah. Because you're going between these all the time, and the the genius knows how to go back and forth because you know these artsy people?

They are people who think they're creative, and they always tell you ideas of things they wanna do, and everyone rolls their eyes because it never happens. So that's the other side of it. There's people who they they dress like they're creative or, there's a saying that just because you're misunderstood doesn't mean you're an artist. So so, like, that guy, you know, or gal, they're, like, always like, oh, look. This would be great if we did this, but they

never do anything. So that's where the person over here who can make things happen, they have to trust that's part of your creativity. And to value the fact that you're organized or you're you're wired that way, instead of saying just these people who are quote misunderstood or whatever artist people are. And they have to learn from you how to, like, actually put a game plan together.

And and that's kinda where, depending on which one you are, that you have to grow in different areas. So you may be not thinking you're creative because you have ideas, but you don't get them done. And so you need to learn from people who can help you, time management, for instance,

and strategy and things like that. And the other side, you need, to to learn to have things where you're freer to play, to try things out, like try podcasting or whatever it is to and in that process, you're learning what those aptitudes are. And so that's really, I think, how one strategy is just to figure out which of those 2 you are. And then if you're the one who's the typical person, who says, you know, you just don't

feel like an artist, you are creative. You just have to learn to think like the artist's curiosity. The other person learned needs to learn to think about, okay, how do I work with constraints now with deadlines, with timelines? And that person can unlock their creativity by doing that. So I think you kind of sort of answered this next question. What what role does curiosity play in the creative process? Well, if you're not bored, you don't get curious. So it plays a huge

point in it. And but meaning curiosity has to be driven. So in order the role that plays is really kind of it's it's one of the central things because you have to learn to be curious of things that you're not noticing. That's what it is. It's I need to learn to train my mind to look at things that I'm normally just gonna walk by. And so it plays a a central role. So it's kinda looking at this way. Instead of thinking you gotta create something out of nothing, curiosity says, what is in front

of me that can I use to make something with? Like the pantry. I'm stuck. There's a storm outside. This is all I got. What can I do to make this edible? I mean, that's that's and so curiosity is like I'm looking for something in a pantry. I normally would not even think about cooking, but it's it's not past its expiration date, and it's edible. So how can I make this work? That's where curiosity really is a central point, I think, in creativity.

Alright. Okay. So can you explain the science behind how we all are wired to be creative? Well, the science is as far as the idea between just being a left or right brain person, as they say Yeah. To the fact that we have brain networks. And what that means is is our entire brain or all of our body, in fact, is used to create with. So what the scientists now are saying is that these, you have multiple brain

networks. Some of them, you know, you might might be familiar with what they call a default mode network, and that's kind of the default mode is where we want mindfulness is to take us out of that. That's a it's the place where we get kinda negative and think, why is it this way? And and we go in these slot loops and things like that. And so a lot of what that, meditation is to get you to to lift out of that. Well, creativity

happens in that space. So the scientists said that default mode is your natural way of saying, I could do better than that, or why is it done this way? And that's what you're doing as well. The other brain network, and

see, and that that one I just mentioned, that's the wizard. Now the robot is what they call a central executive network, and so that's the map of your brain, the part that takes all the ideas in front of you and

sorts them and prioritize them and judges things. And so you can see where the science in this is is that both of these brain networks are involved in creativity is what they found, because they put these contacts on people's brain, and they had them do everything from play jazz, saxophone, to recite poetry, to all these things, and they tried to see this is the parts of the brain. These are the parts of the brain that are involved in those activities

the creative activities. And so so default mode network is a place where some of us will stay. You'll stay a wizard, and that's where that person won't come up with a plan, but they have all these ideas of things they wanna do. So you you you have a list of ideas. And the other side, where the robot is, that's a central executive network, that's where you start to, you know, want to judge things. But if you don't have ideas to judge, then you're gonna, like,

just execute something bad. You know, it's gonna just because you gotta get things done. So the bridging between them is what they call lateral thinking. So you have this ability now to switch. So here's the here's the switch, Will. It's like basically, it's saying, do I need to focus right now? Meaning, do I need to, like, judge in front of me because I need to move forward, or do I need to defocus right now and to get more ideas? And so the scientists said to us, like, that's what

creativity does, and so you're, like, sanding. Like, this way is, defocusing because I need to get more ideas. Like, I'm writing a song, and I need more ideas for this bridge. So I wanna, like, have 5 ideas before I even decide if the producer helps me with it. Okay. Then I take it to producer, and now we're sitting with the speakers in the studio, and we're saying, no. This one, not this one, not this one. Oh, this

one will work, and here's why. And you can see what they've done is they've said, okay, those kind of activities are all part of creativity, but you have to learn when to do each of those because you can't do them at the same time. And that's where the magic happens is understanding, is this the moment I need to focus or the moment I need to defocus? Okay. So how does how does creativity intersect with leadership in your experience? Well, that's it

it's really cool how these researchers that I was reading, Bowman and Diehl Bohlman and Diehl wrote this book, and it's kinda like a multiverse, which I like, because I like Marvel. It's kinda it's cool to think of things being in a multiverse, but they say leadership is like being a person who's in charge of looking at 4 universes. And the universes would be like

this HR universe, which they call family. It's and then there's another window you look through, and that's the structure, like the factory, how it all gets done. And there's this other one, politics is like a jungle, and then there's this like a stadium. It's like your team banner. Like, what are we all about? So you take these 4 frames of these 4 different universes, and the creativity is important because in order to be a good leader, you have to be able to switch between

each of these to be a good leader. I have to learn how to care for people in one window. At the same time, I gotta jump to another window and make sure that everything's operating and the bills are paid on time. And then I gotta keep my job because there's people vying for it and are against me, even though they're I thought they were my friend. You know, that's the jungle

part of it. So you gotta deal with that. And then you gotta jump over to the other one to think, okay, I gotta remind everybody why we're doing this in this company or this activity. This is why we're doing it. So a leader who's really good isn't gonna rest on just one they're good at. Like if they're really political and can keep their job, that's great for them, but it's not

great for, you know, the people. So that's so that's kinda the cool thing about the idea of creativity is the switching of mindsets. So the more agile you get, you know, the more you're able to see the more the the complicated things going on. And that's kinda cool. I like that about,

you know, the idea of leadership, not just excuse me. It's not just being something, you know, a charismatic person has because you have to be really contemplated and really think deeply about these 4 universes before you make a decision. And that takes a lot of creativity. It takes humility to say, maybe I don't see this frame very well, so let me call so and so in, and we'll talk about that so they can help me see it better. And and that's kinda weird. It's it's it it takes the

creative mind to be a good leader. Okay. So so how do you handle failure or setbacks in the creative process? Personally, I don't handle them very well, and I think, you know, that is that's a great question because they will happen. You're gonna you're gonna it's just things sometimes just don't work. And I think the idea is the fact that if you think of the term creative process, just keeping the creative process going is what success is about. So part of that is

understanding just like getting up the next day. You got another day to live. You got another day to create. Mhmm. You have another opportunity. So if we only look at creativity, like, let's say, the tombstone of that person, here's what they did. That's done. No. The creativity stopped. The creativity is what that person's doing every day they're alive, which is a good lesson for me to think, hey, I'm alive. I get to make a mistake. I get

to have a setback because this is part of the process of living. If you interchange living with creativity, you understand that really creativity is is just part of living. Yeah. Absolutely. What advice would you give to leaders who want to force their creative environment in their teams? That's a really good question because you will be a star if you can

get other people that. And there's this term that I've learned over the last year called psychological safety, And it's just been in your work environment or your team, whatever your team is that that you're leading. You have to create what they call psychological safety. So that means people can say things that you disagree with as a leader. People can, you know, point out, like, this idea, maybe how about this one without repercussions? They can also complain

without repercussions. Not misbehavior. We're not talking about misbehavior here. We're just talking about that. And so so I think that's

how you you have to have that in your team. You have to have that kind of trust where they can say, okay. And in the right setting too, you don't wanna, you know, make it overly messy, but at the same time, are people free to say, no. I've been working on this for x amount of months, and look what I found. Can I can I put an opposing viewpoint in there? So that's important. There there's

this also thing I call embracing the awkward. So it's basically saying that if I'm not willing to listen to ideas as the leader that are opposite, I'm not gonna learn. Even if I never choose that idea, the best thing that's gonna happen, it's not just that they get listened to, but I get to learn something, and that's gonna make me better. So that's really what creates a team that's creative because they see that, and that gives them

empowerment. And they'll hope that maybe you're they're thinking you're dumb because you didn't take their idea, which is they should think that, I think. Right? You don't want people who don't have that confidence. At the same time, they think, but I'm glad to work for this person because I know I can give my best. And even that that didn't fly for this project, maybe the next one. I I how can I help them see that my idea is that great? Maybe I could gotta get better ideas.

Alright. So so how do you personally stay motivated and inspired in your creative endeavors? How do I stay motivated? That's a really good question because motivation really has to come from inside. It really has to be something that is there. And in my book, one researcher talked there's like 10 different motivators for creativity. And like towards the bottom is like money, but I need to eat, of course. Right? So that is a real one. It's like if I don't get this project done. So it does

keep me motivated. But in the long term, what keeps me motivated is, do I believe in this? Do I believe in what I'm doing? And part of one of my, central beliefs is that, I wanna pass on what's good to other people. However many laps I have around this planet, if I can help another person succeed, then that's that's worth it. So my motivation doesn't always come from me succeeding

in benchmarks. It comes from me understanding that I still get to be that person who helps, motivate, encourage, kick someone in the rear end, whatever, in their life. And that's really a great place to be. And so that keeps me motivated to think, well, okay, I gotta keep going to do that. But I have to have it from inside. It's not someone telling me, you know, no. God bless the CrossFit people. But, you know, I can never get yelled at like that all the time. It's

like, and some people, they need that. And, but for me, it's it has to come from inside. And I think the researchers say that too, is that that's how you're gonna get you have to find that voice in you that's saying, this is what I love to do. Can you can you discuss the importance of challenging the status quo and creative thinking? Yeah. I've gotten in trouble for that, by the way, over the past. And I think it's extremely important. That's why that psychological safety is

important as a leader. And maybe you're not in a safe environment. If someone listening here and you're and you're thinking, you know, but it is important. I think one of the the books I was mentioning, they mentioned the the space shuttle. Some of us were watching live TV when we were young and saw the space shuttle blow up. That was you. Yeah. Oh my goodness. They're like a teacher on there. I was like I was on

4th grade when that happened. Yeah. It's like, let's just traumatize the whole country. But there were meetings that happened where people really did, who knew what could happen, who never said anything. And so that's a cautionary tale that there is a reason why you are dissatisfied about something. There's a reason why those feelings back to the story of feeling like those

emotions don't have any place. They do. You just have to deconstruct them and do it at the proper time and earn your right at the seat at the table to do whatever it is. But, yes, you have to learn to challenge the status quo because, you know, boredom, you know, is a good indicator. So we're bored because it's the same. And so just lean into the border and say, yeah. I how can it be better? As opposed to running from it and

just saying, okay. We'll deal with it later. So, yeah, challenge the status quo because otherwise, it will it'll change anyway. Okay. So what are some key habits or routines that support your creative process? Well, I I like to get outside, and I walk my dog every day. And that was a good thing for me because I was really in a point of just being kinda low. And my wife came in with a puppy, and the little puppy, like, stuck his head out of the thing.

And so that that gave me since no. He's, like, over a year now, but it's been a really good, habit for me because I noticed how when I'm taking care of that puppy, because I don't have little kids anymore. They're all grown. That's that's important. And taking a walk to center my thoughts, to buffer, you know, before I have a meeting with somebody or even myself. And and I think that's important. So

that's that's one habit, moving, you know, got into running a little bit, which is, you know, bittersweet with that. But just the idea of getting outside and walking and just being there, that to me is a is a big deal. So that's a practice. The other practice is is if I could sit down with people and have those those conversations that you don't normally get to have. It cost a lot because you had to just have that moment. You know?

The art of the hang, there's an art to it, whether it's, you know, get a decent cigar, one I can't afford, but I'm gonna have it anyway, and sit down, with with some people and just be able to reflect, help as a group with what what life's about. So that's another practice. I'm not so I'm not living this alone. I'm not doing this alone. And so now and my family relationships, that's the third thing that keeps me going, to understand, you know, my wife and my family, this how important it is that

they are a part of it. It's just not about me all the time, which is great, because if it is, it gets pretty old. And and so those are things important as a creative person to to see that if I'm living a healthier life and emotionally, I'm trying to, do that in relationally, my work is is gonna be better. And that that's the that's how I work better is by living better. Okay. So so how do you balance structure and and spontaneity in

your work? That's really great because back to what we were talking about with the with the, focus to defocus or the robot to the wizard, this is perfect. It's a difficult thing. And that's really where wisdom comes in, is understanding when is it time to stop being spontaneous and to go for it. Now, having been a student of jazz, I don't really do a lot of jazz music now, but when I was a student enjoying it, you know, you're learning that whole process of structure and and, spontaneity.

You have to have structure. You have to have 12 notes. You gotta know those notes. You gotta know the rhythms. You gotta play the you're gonna you gotta have

time. So part of it is understanding that in your reservoir is what I call it. You have to prepare yourself with the skills needed in order to be spontaneous and make the spontaneous work. So the balance is is asking the question, am I prepared enough to be spontaneous, or is it just gonna come out gibberish? And so that's really important. It gets fun to be spontaneous, but it's even more fun that spontaneity creates some kind of structure even in it, and it's it just surprises people.

That's what creativity does. So so the balance really comes it just from a musical sense, and I think this would apply to anything people create is, okay. I gotta brush up on my scales if I'm gonna play that kind of scale that kind of a song. I'm gonna have to get my timing good if I'm gonna play with that player and and really just enjoy the moment. And that's that under, the ground part of structure that a lot of people, who think they can sing. They haven't done the woodshedding,

we used to call it in music school. You know? You gotta woodshed before you go out there. And, you know, in athletics, you can't just, like, cram becoming good at whatever it is you're doing, whatever position you're playing. You have to, like, break it down to these pieces. Mhmm. And creativity is very much like anything we do in human, whether it's sports or music or whatever. It's you you master little little pieces of it. And then you take those pieces, and then

that becomes your spontaneity. That becomes your okay. We've learned all these different plays. Now we can put together something for this game. And and really, that's kinda how that works, the dance of it. So you don't prepare. You can't be spontaneous. But if you don't have no place to be spontaneous, it's not fun to prepare. It's kinda like, doing laps and never being able to play a

game. Yeah. You know, I was talking with a parent about wanting a kid to learn piano, and they didn't wanna do this real strict classical thing because you're playing scales for 5 years. That's what I say. That's like running laps and never never getting to shoot the ball. And that's kind of really the dance between it is is we have to kind of find that balance that works. Okay. Can you talk about the role of collaboration and creativity?

Collaboration is really makes it's it's what makes creativity really, really fun. I think we kinda have this myth of the superstar, the diva, or whatever, the maestro, in our society, these names. You know? And and some of those people really are, like, super super gifted. Like, let's you mentioned Lady Gaga. I mean, she's, like, she's, like, way beyond human, perhaps, but she knows how to collaborate, like and Tony

Bennett. His role in collaboration with with Lady Gaga you're mentioning and how beautiful that was, they were both learning something. You think, why does someone 87 need to learn anything? Right? But that's where collaboration is powerful. So it has a it has a purpose in the fact that you can do things faster, number 1. So if you need to, like, get a project

done quick, being able to have your teams, broken in in the idea people and perhaps the execution people, So the robots and wizards is is another term for that I put. That's where you can really get things done on a faster timeline, from writing a song, cowriting a song with 4 other people. I had known my strengths, and, you know, my daughter were cowriters together. So we're like, you know, she's really good with melody. So I save that space for her.

And so we collaborate. She we could write a song in hours where me, it'll take, like, days personally to do something close to the same quality. So the role that plays is maximizing, people where my best is even better with a team that I get to create with. And that's really the if you do collaboration correctly, that's what happens is you end up with a project that goes beyond what any of those individuals could ever do. And the hope is that you come at the other side and say, you

know, that exceeded expectations. But I think that's the role it plays. It and it really it plays a role too in the fact that when you pass something on, like I was mentioning earlier, I think that really gets the intrinsic, the inside motivation, to it. Even with my podcast, I started off with me. It was me, talking about what was going on. Because at that time, it was, the George Floyd situation, the 2020 elections, and it was me just talking more out of everything

that was going on. And I enjoyed podcasting. I just didn't enjoy the content. And so when I switched it over more to having interviews and conversation, and that's when I truly fell in love with it. Because now, like, I'm collaborating with other people. We're putting out content that's positive because we're focusing more on helping people, not not focus on all the negative aspects that's going on out there. So when I truly started

just interviewing people and having these conversations, that's when I truly really fell in love with podcasting. It was like, oh, man. This is what I love. I I'm having such a great time interviewing these people because at the same time, I'm learning so much about people and and and life and everything. And I'm having these wonderful conversations, and I'm growing, and

and I'm having an impact. Because some of these stories people are relating to, they're sending me messages, and they're like, I needed to hear this episode with you and such and such, or I needed to have this episode, or even the episode where the person that I did the episode with, when I released the episode, they have been going through some stuff, and that episode brought them back to that highly world when we recorded that show. Because when we recorded that show, she she was

so vibrant and all this. And she's like, man, you don't understand. Since we've recorded this episode, she's like, I've been going through so much, and I didn't even feel like that person. But then when you put in the descriptions and all this stuff and you put the one of my favorite pictures as the thumbnail and all that, she was like, man, it reminded me of who I am. And so when when I'm able to have that type of impact, I was like, oh, I love

this. This is this is what I wanna continue to do because these people people need to hear this. They do. They they need and this is kinda where, like, the doing something alone, like, being a lone wolf is kind of the danger we have. That's why we need to talk about stuff. And, you know, our society's gone through some really, really interesting things. And, you know, the fact that we feel, frustrated is a great to go back to the point of don't lose

that frustration. You can create from it. You can start a podcast like you did. You could you can make something. And that to me, this is why why I create is because it you know, it's it's better to add something to the world than just tear something else down. Definitely. Other things that need to be teared down, we can talk about that. But imagine, you made you made something. Yeah. Definitely. What what impact has blogging had on your understanding and practice

of creativity? Yeah. I was blogging way back in 2005. That's so funny how that's a long time ago. And it really at first, there were all these other church musicians, you know, and they didn't know each other. And there's a few of us who were nerdy, like, I'm a nerd. So I was I had a website, and we would, like, find meetups all over the country. And it was like this incredible

building of community, like, I'm sure you have with with podcasting. And Yeah. That there wasn't really podcasting back then, but it it really was a great way to do what you're saying. It was just first of all, it was just talking about things, and then, you know, what made it worth more was the conversation. It was people writing you notes back, people disagreeing with you, all all sorts of things like that, and that really and I learned a lot from

that. Learned how to communicate, learned what my own voice was. I think people you know, it's any kind of journaling you can do, we don't all have to do it publicly, but it's a good it's a good practice. Yeah. It it is. I've, it's helped me grow the podcast in the last couple of years because, last this past year is when I I've I've I added the the blog to the podcast. So I also have a blog section of the podcast, and it's made a difference. You

can see the growth in the podcast. You can and so for me, it's all these different things that I'm incorporating now into the podcast, into into what I'm doing creatively, and and it's it's it's having a a positive impact on on on what I'm doing. That's great. And, again, you're just taking your you're creating something something, with what you have, all the life experiences and all the conversations you're having here, and that's that's how

we that's how we live, I think. So how do you see the relationship between creativity and personal growth? I I think it's the same thing. I create, therefore I am. Yeah. So when you make so you're blogging and podcasting me for writing my book and my blog or whatever else I'm doing. Those things,

you know, are helping me grow too. You mentioned it. You're you're creating a podcast that's teaching you so much and helping you to grow and to see hear other voices and see other faces, and this is why I do too. I used to interview folks, you know, one of my favorite poets, shout out to Micah Bornay from Long Beach. He's a he's a wonderful poet, and

and his whole hulk philosophy is fight evil with poetry. I'm like, this is great. So I had to hear a story. I've known him for a few years, but it's just like that whole thing about, personal growth is is like, you know, sometimes you can put it in a poem, but sometimes you can put it in creating, you know, you know, a barbecue with friends, that you you've been delaying having. And and that's that could help you grow. Like, you know, I've been delaying doing this. Why don't I

do that? Why don't I create I know I'm you know, some of us are good at barbecue and I'm not, but my brothers are all great barbecue guys. You know? And it's like but that's part of why creativity is about personal growth. Because when you do create something, it is going to have a wake, and it's gonna have a wake bigger than you think. Picasso said, I never intended to have meaning in anything, but people brought their own meaning to

my creations. You know? He didn't mean for it, but people say, oh, this must mean that. This would mean mean this. And so even if we're not thinking about it, we are what some people call meaning making factories. And so that's why it grows. So meaning giving our lives meaning is part of growing our lives. And so if if I'm making something, I'm helping bring my life and others that I don't even know what it is sometimes,

meaning in their life. And that's what growth's about. It's about seeing beyond just the the raw material to what the story is and seeing how that story is my life being a part of this world, community, how I am a character in it that can really have a positive impact. And and it blows my mind sometimes when I do that. And I think if we could see that, we can see how important your life is. It's so important that when you make something, by you making it, the world

changes. So what are some of the challenges people face when trying to integrate creativity into their daily lives? Well, of course, some people work 2 jobs that I know. You know, it's it's tough today today. It really is. It's not, you know, or you have kids you're taking care of or parents you're taking care of.

So that's a great question, because like, how do I fit creativity in? Well, if you look at creativity, not as the art stuff necessarily, but as you making a life, how you're handling that life of yours is a creative opportunity. So the way you can start is saying, okay. I have this box or the sandbox I call it I'm living within. How can within this generally, I have this many hours. How can I make my life in this? Not just make a project, not just add something to my

list, but here's my list of what my life is. How can I give that meaning better? How can I focus that better so I know I'm moving towards some vision that I'm having with it? Whether when I get this age, I have this as part of my life. I have a better relationship with my children because I'm gonna be doing this. I'm not adding things necessarily as I am seeing that it's part of life. And in that way, we all got enough to do, but do we have enough to be? Can you be who you're supposed to be?

And that's what's important. You are worth being a person out there. And that's what's a lot of people, myself included, we we forget that. It's not so we just keep on the grind. But we are worth being as a person with all that's in there. And to be able to to kinda think about what that is, to give us some space to do that, the creative efforts we put in, some people garden, they barbecue, whatever it is you do, that helps you to put meaning into all those

things. And so if you look at it that way, it might actually give you some some breathing room because you're able to take a breath about this is my life. Can you recommend any books or resources for those looking to deepen their understanding of creativity? You mean besides my own book? Well, you're about to plug you're gonna plug that one in a few minutes. Books.

I do know one one author, Austin Kleondi, is really great because his books are really small, and one of his books called steal like an artist, and it's a really great way to begin to think about creativity, and it kinda cool, like steal. You know? I'm from East San Jose, so I know what stealing is. I not that I'd ever did that, but it's a really cool little little book. You can just read it in 1 or 2 settings, and it kinda can jump

start that. Another one, like Steven Pressfield, War of Art, he basically has these little essays in there. It's all about, like, what's coming, I'm fighting a battle to create, which we were just talking about, the person. How do I fit this in my life? And he basically talks through, fighting that voice, really, in these little bites so you can, like, read bits of it. So that's why I like those 2 books because that's how my brain is. I I can't, like,

get along things like that, but Yeah. Those are 2 I definitely recommend, war of art and how to steal like an artist. Okay. Now, like I said, now is part of the show where you get the solo screen and you get the plug away, let everybody know where they can find your book. And my my my book my

book is called mind blown, unlock your creative genius by bridging science and magic, and you can get it on Amazon in Kindle or print, form, but it's also available Spotify, Audible, any kind of, your public library, will have the the audio version as well. I like audiobooks. So or or you can go to my site, rkblog.com, and find me and whatever else I got going there. Awesome, man. Awesome. Thank you for being such a wonderful guest. This has been

a great great time. Time flies when you when you're having some some great conversations, so I appreciate you being a guest. Appreciate you taking your time and, and stopping by and and having, a wonderful conversation. My pleasure, man. Anytime. Alright. Don't leave your shit. Let me close out the show with y'all a little bit off the air. But once again, I I appreciate you stopping by, man. This is this is great. I had a wonderful time. Me too. Alright, everyone.

Just, shout out to everybody who stopped by to chat. Mickey Delaney. What's going on, brother? How are you doing? He goes, hi, Rich and Wise. How are you doing? We are I am well. And and as you can see, Rich is doing well. So I I hope everyone out there is having a a safe, holiday season. Shout out to my RealWise fan, Papi j, Brandy j. Love you guys. Shout out to the boss lady. Love you and appreciate you, baby. And as always, a big, big shout out to all the essential workers out

there. God bless you. Be safe. You know your boy, Wise, does it? Peace out.