Gottman's Science of Love: Practical Tools for Connection | Julie Sharon-Wagschal | #132

You can improve your marriage based on decades of research . Julie Sharon Wagshall is a Dutch American psychologist , relationship educator and founder of the Center for Relationship Learning . She offers therapy and workshops for couples and training and consultation for professionals by using the Gottman Method for Couples Therapy .

Julie has an MA in Counseling Psychology and a BA in Psychology . Primarily working within the local international community , julie has counseled clients from over 50 countries At her private practice . She helps distressed and disconnected couples to rediscover and reignite friendship and intimacy and improve their communication skills

, often in long marathon sessions . Often in long marathon sessions . Ultimately , julie's mission is to support couples to become closer and kinder with each other so they can create safe and loving homes for themselves and their families . We hope you enjoy the show .

Well , science says lasting relationships come down to two things , and any guess on these two particular terms , dave .

He goes , you know , we can't really find a rule , a reason , but it does come down to kindness , isn't that beautiful Kindness ? And then in some other research , generosity was the other term . But today we are thrilled to have Julie Sharon , a Dutch-American psychologist , joining us today . To have Julie Sharon , a Dutch-American psychologist , joining us today .

In her work with clients spanning over 50 countries , she has followed the science

of love and well , her focus is to help distressed and disconnected couples rediscover and reignite friendships and intimacy . Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection , julie Sharon . Thank you so much . You clearly love what you do and we love that about you . Can . Can you start by ? Can we start by asking you is there a hope for love today ?

You know , I think even for those couples who might be struggling on the daily , where are we ? Oh ?

and everyone I mean most people would love to have a good relationship , so we do see a lot of people really working hard to get that good relationship .

All the while there's these electrodes , you know , plastered on their bodies that are measuring , you know , blood flow and heart rate and sweat , all kinds of things that they're measuring . And the couples were then sent home and interviewed upwards of six years later .

And the bottom line even though a couple might look calm on the outside , it doesn't mean that they're calm on the inside , and that's what seems to count in a lot of their research .

So during your sessions with couples , how do you instruct them , I guess , on this great insight and , more importantly , how do you help them with their physiology so it doesn't wreck their relationship ?

So what the research shows is that we're not very well aware of how fast our heart is beating when we're in fight or flight .

And so what the research shows that Gottman and his colleagues were doing is that when couples are interacting and their heart rate is high , and sometimes even above 100 , even though they're just sitting there next to each other having a conversation , it does indicate that they're in fight or flight and that their relationship is in trouble .

And so we do have to measure that by using pulse oximeter . So in sessions I actually use a pulse oximeter . So I have my couples put . They pop on a pulse oximeter on their finger and we see where is their heart rate . Is it up high ?

And if so , let's take a break and first calm down , because if we have them continue their conversations when they're in fight or flight , those conversations don't go very well . But if we have them calm down , if they learn to soothe themselves , they are able to have much better conversations . It's amazing . That's what the research shows .

So they had couples sit in the lab having a conflict conversation and when one of the couples maybe one or both partners their heart rate would go above 100 , they would come in , stop the interaction , give them a magazine to read and watch their heart rate go down , down , down , down down and once they were back to their base rate , they would instruct them to

continue the conversation and , as John Gottman says , it was like they had like a brain transplant , like they were two

different people having that same conversation , while the couples , you know the the control group . They were not interrupted , so they kept going as they were .

You know , their heart rate was up high and they were having conflicts and they really had bad outcomes in terms of that , those conversations so I'm curious , jump in here and and ask them a more like a practical question .

And then when we you know , when someone leaves the room , you know we're really stressed and we can't stop thinking about it . You know they're ruminating on , you know what's happening in the fight and what they're talking about . So they do start to recognize that this happens and so they can bring it into their lives by noticing it in those moments .

And we practice how to take an effective break and an effective break . What we know is it takes about 20 to 30 minutes to calm down , but only if you're really doing something that can calm you down . So if you keep ruminating , you're not going to , you know , calm down .

So you really got to distract yourself so that your body can come back to its balanced state . And then , after about 20 to 30 minutes , you contact your partner . You agree on a time when to talk about it .

It doesn't have to be at that moment , because it might not be a good time or you both might not be calm , but it's good to do it within 24 hours , because often this is actually really important . There's one person who wants to leave the conversation . They're like , hey , I'm flooded , I need a break .

So they're in flight mode , but their partner is then often in fight mode and they want to keep going and they feel really abandoned . When their partner wants to take a break and they're worried you know there's a lot of things to say and they want to finish their thoughts and their sentences and they're not able to and it's really frustrating .

They may feel abandoned or like their partner is never going to come back to the conversation . So you really need to make an agreement about coming back .

how they have conflict , they really can make changes if they both commit to doing that . And I think really important that they look at themselves , that they're not just waiting for their partners to change , but they commit to changing themselves . Take ownership of this process .

But , julie , you've given me a renewed faith to get them back out again . You use them in a session , it sounds like . And how do you do that in session ? Do you just hit pause on 20 minutes ? Send somebody out ? How do you use ?

You know , total body relaxation , whatever type of meditation , breathing exercise that works for them . Sometimes people want to go take a walk , you know , and it tends not to happen that often in the session . Once it's happened , once they start to get the feeling , oh wait , it's happening , let me slow down .

So they start to , instead of it escalating like that , they start to repair the interactions before the escalation , and that's really what we want . So , you know , it can happen that people really get flooded we call it getting flooded when their heart rate

goes over 100 . But ultimately we're trying to get them to repair the negative cycle before it escalates .

It came in the way of those bids for connection . I really love this . It's true , what is a hit and what is a miss ? And how could we do better in our marriage , julie , with these bids that our partners are often making ?

You know , even when you step into an elevator and you nod at the person who's already in the elevator , for instance , that's a bid for connection , right , and you're just hoping for a little nod back . And if they don't give that nod back , you're a little bit maybe annoyed , a little bit rejected .

It doesn't feel so nice , right , when someone doesn't just give you that back . So turning towards bids for connection is just acknowledging that kind of that small gesture that someone's trying to connect with you and it's very simple .

To turn towards a bid and turning away is when you don't respond and that leaves a person really feeling a little bit rejected and not important . And when you do respond to bids , it makes you feel important , it makes you feel like you matter to your partner and that builds a lot of trust .

That builds a strong , full emotional bank account , right , if you imagine couples having an emotional bank account , if that's really full

, you know , there's a big buffer for when things don't go so well . So we want to have lots of turning towards moments so that we have a lot of positivity in the relationship , which we need to offset when there is conflict , which is usually inevitable .

Can predict up to is it 94% right Accuracy , whether couples straight , gay , rich , poor , childless or not will kind of where that direction will go with their relationships . So it really feels like so much of that is at the heart , really the spirit of the relationship . Can you walk us through a little bit about some of the why ?

And we know this is so important because John Gottman and his colleagues did this amazing study in the early 90s where they had 130 newlywed couples . You know they were all just gotten married within the last six months . They were all equally happy in their relationship .

You know they did all these questionnaires before they joined the study , questionnaires before they joined the study , and so they would stay one cup at a time in this .

You know , great bed and breakfast on a lake outside of Seattle and they were being filmed and their heart rates were being , you know , monitored and even stress hormones in their urine was being checked and everything was being watched . You know their facial expressions and what they were saying and you know all day as they were just hanging out .

And that's when they noticed the bids . They thought , wow , people keep making these bids for connection . And they noticed that there's three ways that couples kind of , three groups of responses that were possible either turning towards a bid you know , good morning and then a good morning back . Or a turning away response , which is no response , right ?

So good morning and then no response . Or a turning against response , which is really this kind of negative , kind of leave me alone , I'm busy , kind of response . And so they watched that . And then , six years later , they found that some couples were still happily married and some couples were divorced . And then they looked back six years earlier .

What were those couples doing in that bed and breakfast ? How are they responding towards each other ? And that was the real big difference is how they turn towards or away . So the couples that were happily married , six years later they turn towards their partner's bids 86 percent of the time . By the way , it's not perfect , right ?

we're not expecting perfection from relationships or partners , because that's you set yourself up for failure there . But 86% , it's a good amount and the couples that were divorced within those six years , they only turned towards each other 33% of the time . That's a big difference right Between 86 and 33 . It's huge . We're going .

I'm actually writing a text while we're driving and anybody kind of get to those things when we're driving with his blessing and he goes , oh , you missed it , and he so wanted to share that . I've just noticed in marriage how important that is right when you look at blessing . So he goes oh , you missed it , and he still wanted to share that .

I've just noticed in marriage how important that is right . When you look at that , you can enjoy and share something that's important to you with your partner . I got to up my game on that .

that's a repair right . And then you're still turning towards .

Well , we know that contempt is certainly the number one factor that tears couples apart , so please share what makes contempt so devastating to a relationship .

, and the receiver of contempt , you know , they feel really bad and it even affects their , their immune system . So it's , it's really our biggest predictor for relationship demise , but also it predicts , you know , poor health outcomes .

You know , I don't feel connected anymore and then a repair attempt or forgiveness is really a . I want to feel connected again . You know , I'm sorry . I want to feel that , that oneness , yeah , that connection with you again . And I think one of the biggest ways , at least the strongest predictors , is kindness . Is that right ? It's really . Kindness is king .

The research I love the research , even in positive psychology , with Martin Seligman . He talks about . He says an act of kindness produces the single most reliable momentary increase in well-being of any exercise that they've ever tested . So even individually , kindness produces happiness .

And then , when you put it into relationships , oh , my goodness , right , the stability . Tell us a little bit about what is it about kindness that is so powerful ?

Let me take it back a couple of steps . What we know is positivity in our lives it doesn't weigh as heavily as negativity does . So kindness has a big impact because you need a lot of kindness to offset when things don't go well .

So we know also from that newlywed study that the couples that did well over time , they had 20 times as much positivity , meaning kindness , interest , curiosity , generosity , all these nice things . They had 20 times as much of that versus negativity .

And also what came out of the research is that when they argue , they still had five times as much positivity versus negativity .

you know when you're kind to someone , that counts for a lot . We'll be right back after this brief message and we're back .

And it's also how people are feeling inside , as they are interacting , it doesn't sit so badly because they're more regulated , like their heart rates aren't going up , their physiology is more stable , so they're able to keep it lighter .

Let's say , even when talking about difficult topics , it's not to keep uh to , to avoid uh negativity , because what the difference is between the healthy couples , the successful relationships and the disasters right is the way that they express their negativity .

So the way they express their anger , so they don't escalate it with criticism , with contempt , with defensiveness and with the stonewalling you know , those four horsemen . There isn't that belligerence . So instead of expressing these negative feelings in unhealthy ways , they express it in healthier ways .

So it's not about repressing negative feelings and even when you're feeling negative , it can still be a positive interaction .

exactly . So if it's said like that and then if your partner says , oh yeah , I get it , it's a mess , let me quickly clean up , then you know that's positive .

Do you have something that stands out , a go-to Well ?

And the stress reducing conversation is just basically a hey how was your day , you know what's on your mind ? Kind of conversation , and it's not about the relationship , it's just about how they talk with each other about stresses they may have in their life .

And it turns out again from the research is that the way you have that conversation really makes a difference in terms of how your relationship will go . So if you have a productive , constructive and really supportive conversation there , even if it's just a couple minutes , it buffers your relationship from turning negative .

So couples that do well on this and these are kind of the key takeaways for this exercise is you don't want to jump in with solutions . You don't want to criticize your partner . So if they're really stressed , you don't want to stress them out by blaming them for being in that type of situation .

And you don't want to dismiss their stress , a situation and you don't want to , you know , dismiss their stress . So what we just want to do is just listen , be interested , ask questions , show empathy , show understanding and that's it . You don't need to solve anything , you don't need to make it go away .

It's okay that they're stressed , you can just be on their side . No , you don't want to be on the you know , the so called enemy side . You want to be on the so-called enemy side . You want to be on your partner's side , and when couples get good at that , it really , really makes their relationship great because they have good conversations .

Just their day-to-day conversations are supportive and connected . They're updated on each other's lives . That brings a lot of good , strong friendship type quality into the relationship . So that I think that's , uh , that's a good one to an easy one to to um , to apply in your life .

Although you know it's interesting when you learn about this and then you want to apply it , people suddenly realize , oh , my God , I gave a lot of unsolicited advice .

Yeah , or you know , you know , maybe you know if your partner is complaining that you know that that their boss was upset because they got to work late , and then , and then the partner will say , well , you do always , you know , you are late all the time . I understand that your partner or that your boss would will say well , you do always .

You know you are late all the time . I understand that your partner or that your boss would be upset because you

know it pisses me off too . Yeah , and that that's not a good idea . That's going to make your fear or your partner feel really alone . So don't do that . People tend to do that , we all do , we do .

You'll find it online and what that is is that when couples have had an incident , a fight , something that is still sitting between them and they don't talk about it , they carry that .

It's like they're carrying a heavy backpack with all these incidents and it's , you know , hurting their backs and they keep walking around with it and they're not able to get close .

You know , intimacy is often a problem because they have all these unresolved incidents , fights , painful moments , you know , attachment , injuries , as we can also call them , and they're not processed .

And this exercise is brilliant because it helps couples to just slowly , gently , one step at a time , to go through what happened , and not by jumping to I'm sorry's too quickly .

First really understanding each other's feelings , other's perspectives , understanding why this was so painful Did it trigger anything from earlier in life , then taking responsibility , then apologizing and also looking at how can we prevent such a situation from happening again . So I love that one because a lot of healing takes place with that one .

no-transcript .

So my perspective changes and if I'm feeling flooded , the last thing I want to do is be kind . Right , so all of these are so related . We get into a trajectory Strong feelings lead to strong words and actions , and it just takes us off the cliff , whereas we can back way up and catch it , check it , change it right .

I talk about watching our temper , our tongue and our tone of voice . Take a time out and breathe , because what you're about to say is not going to be kind , and then it's going to take you even further , whereas a different trajectory helps us to be mindful .

And again it feels like this strong emotions turn me inward , but these loving emotions can turn me outward , and then kindness is outward and I want to get your take on one more quality , and that in . Recently , I feel like I rarely talk about kindness without talking about I call it the flip side .

I consider them almost two sides of the same coin and that is kindness and gratitude , because when someone is kind , hopefully the other person is grateful , that those two in my mind really should go together and that they're both outward . Kindness is not about me , gratitude it's not about me . It's never about me .

It's about the other kind of this other-centered-ness . Any thoughts about my ramblings ? Kindness and gratitude .

That gratitude together creates such a connection . And you know one of in the theory of the sound relationship house theory , which is the Gottman theory about what builds strong relationships . Having a sense of shared fondness and admiration is so , so important in the basis of the foundation of the relationship the friendship .

Really having that respect , that appreciation , being warm and kind , and you know giving compliments and saying I love you and , um , you know , being affectionate , you know having being , yeah , just showing appreciation verbally and non-verbally , that's what , yeah , that makes a relationship .

So , you know , warm and nice and you know worth it , right , it's that brings so much connection . It's also , you know , where romance and passion lives .

You know , with that kind of attitude , I'm grateful to have you in my life .

themselves . You know , am I being kind ? Am I being generous ? Am I showing appreciation ? Am I turning towards bids ? What am I bringing to the table here ? Here , I think , looking at yourself , not jumping to blame , you know , into criticism , into contempt mode , saying hey , let's slow down . Am I flooded ? You know , how am I doing inside right now ?

What am I feeling ? How am I expressing that ? So ,

and that's the inward work that you can do and it gives that . You know , that comes out as kindness , really .

mostly also trainings for other therapists . So I give the Gottman trainings .

makes marriages thrive .

What's your takeaway of the day with our time with Julie ?

Is that true ?

all these years , you know what is the secret . And they're like friendship . Yeah , just nice to each other , and when they're not , they seek to repair .

I think if people can just simply slow down or take a breath and get out of those unhealthy cycles , you don't have to react to those . Just learn to slow down , to pause , to take a breath and don't take those hooks right To react that we want to jump back in . It just sends our brain into a tailspin and we can't think clearly

. And then we yeah , then we're rarely kind , so I just think of those emotions tied to that . That was kind of a little thought that came to me is tying that emotional part of the brain to unkindness . But if we can stop , then we're much more on a better trajectory anyway , with kindness and gratitude . So thank you . Yeah , julie , thanks again , thanks .

We appreciate you taking time to share so many helpful tips and tools with our listeners today .

Thanks so much for tuning in to another episode of Stronger Marriage Connection .

You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at Stronger Marriage Live , and Facebook at Stronger Marriage , so be sure to share with us which topics you loved or which guests we should have on the show .

Next , if you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection , visit StrongerMarriageorg , where you'll find free workshops , e-courses , in-depth webinars , relationship surveys and more . Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University .

And finally , a big thanks to our producer , rex Polanis , and the team at Utah State University and you , our audience . You make this show possible . The opinions , findings , conclusions and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission .