CRO/COO Mastery & Book Writing Hacks! Podcast w/Jennifer Geary

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:13:05
Jennifer Geary
They're reluctant to to part with the money. Right? You know, they're reluctant to to pay for that kind of expertise. But if that's holding back your business, if that's stopping you from scaling and growing faster, well, then then it's a false economy, right? Then then you're just holding back.

00:00:13:14 - 00:00:38:12
Matt Haycox
As you've said, if you want to grow a business, if you want to scale, if you want to achieve anything of greatness, then you cannot put a price on high quality staff who are going to take you along that journey because there is no way to build anything great without having great people around you. Guys, Matt Haycox here. And welcome to another episode of The Matt Haycox Show where I've got with me today Jennifer Geary.

00:00:38:15 - 00:00:58:09
Matt Haycox
Jennifer is a Chief Operating Officer and Chief Risk Officer. She’s a speaker. She's an author. She's a mentor. And I hear she's an all around great fun Irish girl too. So lots to look forward to and lots to learn. And I always say, and I’ve been saying it more and more on these podcasts. But one of my favorite bits about having a podcast is being able to ask, very selfishly,

00:00:58:09 - 00:01:20:10
Matt Haycox
the questions that I want to ask to benefit me and benefit my businesses. And I guess luckily my audience get to listen in as well. You know, I've had some great guests lately where they've been very applicable to my own businesses and obviously coming from a financially services type background and lending businesses, etc., I'm very much looking forward to talking to Jennifer today and getting deep on operating, on risk, and seeing what I can learn to benefit.

00:01:20:11 - 00:01:21:18
Matt Haycox
So, welcome to the show, Jenny!

00:01:21:29 - 00:01:37:15
Jennifer Geary
Wow, what an intro. Thank you so much, Matt. And no, it's a pleasure to be here. I love listening to your podcast and I know you've got such an interesting following of people I think. You know, entrepreneurs, founders, people in all walks of life and lovely to have a chat and I'm sure we'll both come away with something from it.

00:01:37:16 - 00:02:03:05
Matt Haycox
Well, like you say I've got a good, good mix of audience, you know, from from business owners to wannabe business owners to young entrepreneurs and to, I guess the people who are in employment and maybe looking to make that break. So, you know, we have a wide variety of guests, but I always tend to find that, you know, whoever's doing the talking, there's always something to learn, you know, wherever you are on the ladder or whatever stage of life or business you’re at. Taking that and putting it into context.

00:02:03:05 - 00:02:20:18
Matt Haycox
Because I guess on the face of it, many people will probably think that they either don't know what a Chief Operating Officer is or Chief Risk Officer is. They either don't know what they are. Or maybe they don't need one. Just tell us in simple terms, you know, what exactly are those two roles? Where do they sit in a business and why might business owners of different shapes and sizes need one?

00:02:20:25 - 00:02:40:05
Jennifer Geary
Yeah, there are two very grandiose terms, aren't they? So let’s... a far more important and relevant I think to talk about, what kind of functions they perform in an organization, and so that people can think about whether and when they need that kind of expertise. And just, you know, by way of background before I jump in, you know, I, I guess had a pretty conventional career start in life.

00:02:40:05 - 00:02:59:21
Jennifer Geary
I trained as a chartered accountant in Dublin. I worked my way through financial services, working in big banks, worked first for the not for profit, and then got into fintech a little bit more. And I suppose increasingly, as I've gone through my career, I feel like I've increasingly worked in a more entrepreneurial capacity. So I came to that later in my career than maybe some of your listeners.

00:02:59:21 - 00:03:22:08
Jennifer Geary
But more recently I worked in a fintech that provided funding for startups, right. For Micro-enterprises. I worked in a software company that that sells into financial services. And of course, I- my side hustle, my, my little venture is my books. And that's where I had to, you know, own the whole thing from beginning to end. Own the creative process, decide, you know, decide how it was going to look and feel and all that kind of thing.

00:03:22:08 - 00:03:42:20
Jennifer Geary
So, you know, maybe from some quite conventional, you know, foundings that I've branched into other areas. But in terms of the roles. So, a COO, a Chief Operating Officer is typically, when you get to an organization of a certain size, is typically the number two is typically the second in command. But quite different, you know, if you're the founder, if you're the CEO, you have obviously been there since the beginning.

00:03:42:21 - 00:04:01:00
Jennifer Geary
You're there to try and create something new to find a new angle, to break new ground, to devise a strategy, to create something of value that's not there already. And as COO, your role is to tuck in behind that sort of, you know, founder, CEO, and do all of the things that are needed to make that a success, right?

00:04:01:00 - 00:04:25:15
Jennifer Geary
So that can be everything from operations to customer services to finance to marketing to technology. And it varies. It very much varies. There's no set list of roles that a CEO can cover. I counted 16, for what it's worth, 16 disciplines that that a COO can do in an organization. But most importantly for you as a founder, it's when you hit that point of you're either starting to think I'm out of my depth on some of this stuff, right?

00:04:25:15 - 00:04:42:00
Jennifer Geary
This is getting a bit complex and I don't know, I just don't know it and I don't have the time to learn it. That's one thing. Or, you know, a lack of expertise is is maybe holding you back in a certain area or frankly, you're just doing stuff that's de-energizing you and taking you away from what you loved about the role in the first place.

00:04:42:00 - 00:04:56:25
Jennifer Geary
Right. And you've got to a certain level of success and scale. That can be time then to bring in someone to cover some of those things that frankly are not your sweet spot, that you're not that you're not brilliant at, that you kind of have to do, but you don't want to do. Who can take that off you and run that for you so you can get back to what you do best

00:04:57:05 - 00:05:01:20
Jennifer Geary
So I'll pause for breath there because that's a COO and I can talk about Chief Risk Officer in a sec

00:05:01:27 - 00:05:24:08
Matt Haycox
Well, yeah, just before we go onto the Chief Risk Officer. So, so with the COO who reports into them. So I mean, obviously I guess depending on the size of the business, you've you've got your boards, you've got your finance director, you know, you maybe have a marketing director, sales director. Are these roles that would still report into the founder, into the CEO? Or would they report into the COO and kind of, you know, kind of take out a layer of delegation there?

00:05:24:29 - 00:05:40:15
Jennifer Geary
They they they can it very much depends and you can set that up in the way that you think best for the organization. So I have had the finance role. I have not had the finance role under me. And again, I guess qualifying as an accountant, I was able to cover that, but I haven't, I haven't had it.

00:05:40:15 - 00:05:56:09
Jennifer Geary
I've had HR under me. I have not had HR under me. So it very much depends as a CEO and with your board, you know, how you- how you want to level that and how you want to cover all of those pieces. There's no set rules, and it's as much about your expertise and the person's expertise as as anything else.

00:05:56:23 - 00:06:11:28
Matt Haycox
And whilst there's no set rules, I get that. Are there some that you think would never fall under? Like, like sales and business development, would that always stay more directly linked to the CEO and the founder and that you would deliver on that sales journey?

00:06:12:10 - 00:06:29:01
Jennifer Geary
Typically, I would say yes, that that's the case. So your your sales person, your chief revenue officer, whatever you call that role would typically be outside of the realm of COO. That being said, I had a COO write to me after the first book to say, you forgot R&D. I'm a COO and I've got R&D. And I was like, Oh, wow, I didn't know that.

00:06:29:01 - 00:06:56:28
Jennifer Geary
Okay, fine. You know, so so it can depend. But yeah, what I've seen most commonly is sort of sales and revenue is separate to operations. But, you know, some of the other things around that can probably vary as well. Marketing, PR, sometimes sits outside product. You know, you can argue both ways, but product development, if that's if that's a role in your organization can sit outside, it's typically, you know, all of the things that that that make the organization work and in the background and support the functioning of the organization.

00:06:57:12 - 00:07:10:24
Matt Haycox
And when is the right time or how big would a business need to be to actually think about taking one of these on? And I've kind of been playing it with in my head while I've been listening to you but I'm interested to hear what you've got to say first, and I’ll chuck a few of my thoughts in

00:07:11:12 - 00:07:28:14
Jennifer Geary
Well, sure. Obviously you want to probably get the organization to a certain level of volume of success. But you know, before you start thinking about loading up with too many senior people. And as you know, if you're a founder entrepreneur, you're probably going to want to have to bootstrap, you know, all of those things until you've proven the concept and until, you know, look, I've got something here now I've got a-

00:07:28:14 - 00:07:50:01
Jennifer Geary
You know, I've got a business, I've got revenue, I've, you know, I'm showing something. And as I said, I think you often know when you're hitting that point of, Ooh, I'm starting to get out of my depth or I'm being de-energized or I'm running out of bandwidth or, you know, I'm covering everything. And I'm actually- you sort of you can sort of feel you're starting to hold the organization back because all of the decisions are bottlenecking up through you and it's too much and it's taking you away.

00:07:50:01 - 00:08:05:24
Jennifer Geary
So rather than put a kind of a number or a stage or a time period on it, I think it's much more a function of where the organization is relative to you. And when that organization is growing and taking on a life of its own and you're starting to to be that bottleneck, then that's usually a good indication that you need someone else around you.

00:08:06:01 - 00:08:28:08
Matt Haycox
I mean, when I first started, I guess having this conversation with you or thinking about the concept, I was imagining that probably most people listening to this would think, Oh, you know, it's a long way off for me, or you need to be, need to be quite a quite a substantially sized business, you know, before that COO role drops, drops in. But I think for me, having heard more about it from you, I would see it coming in actually in an early stage in a business

00:08:28:08 - 00:08:52:03
Matt Haycox
And it depends, I guess it depends on what your strategy as to how you're going to grow your staffing structure. I know different people have different takes on this. And, you know, I always get asked the question of, you know, if I'm starting a business, who's the first person that I should be hiring? Or, you know, what is the order of who I take on? And my take on it because I'm a massive advocate for the fact that any business owner, any CEO should know how to do as many of the jobs as possible.

00:08:52:03 - 00:09:09:08
Matt Haycox
as well as possible. And I talk about this a lot with regards to finance, for example. And I'm absolutely frightened and staggered at the same time by the amount of business owners, I would say almost the vast majority, that have no grasp of the finances of the business whatsoever. I mean, as someone lending money, you know, I see it all the time first hand

00:09:09:08 - 00:09:24:28
Matt Haycox
where, you know, we’ll get an application for finance, we’ll ask them a few questions saying, Oh, we just looked at your accounts, can you come back and answer us these questions please? And the response will always be, I can't tell you that I've got an accountant who does that for me or Let me pass you over to my FD because because they need to give you the answers. And it’s absolutely frightening.

00:09:25:17 - 00:09:42:03
Matt Haycox
And these are complicated questions. And it's frightening to me that they don't know the answers. I always say You don't need to be an accountant, but you need to have enough knowledge so that you can find your way around a P&L, find your around a balance sheet, and be able to have conversations with any of the divisions in your business so that you know you're not getting the wool pulled over your eyes.

00:09:42:07 - 00:10:05:15
Matt Haycox
Whether that's sales or marketing or operations or finance or whatever it may be. My view to when someone's starting a business and growing a business and looking to scale from a staffing perspective is, I think as the founder, you should be doing as much of everything as possible until you then hit breaking point. And it's almost like for me, for me, hire number one person number two in the business is almost an assistant to you and a jack of all trades.

00:10:05:15 - 00:10:26:23
Matt Haycox
And that when you do decide that you want to be hiring someone in a division, like you need someone in sales or you need someone in marketing. Again, I, I think it's worth putting the money and the effort in to find a manager rather than an executive on day one. I know a lot of people will argue, Well, that's too expensive for me because I don't need someone managing, but if you don't have the caliber of managers, etc., below you.

00:10:26:23 - 00:10:47:15
Matt Haycox
And ultimately you're going to find find yourself doing too much management, too much nitty gritty. It’s a long, long story, a long, long explanation story that but I guess where I'm leading to is that I guess all the right COO. It sounds very much like a right hand to a CEO, to a CEO, really, the person that can help you in so many areas deliver on your vision.

00:10:47:15 - 00:11:04:05
Jennifer Geary
Yeah, I think I think those are brilliant observations and clearly born, Matt, out of real world experience, right? There's no substitute for having your hands on it yourself. And when you're creating something for the first time, I agree with you. Like you've got to understand the unit economics, right? You know, how much am I making on this? Did I lose on that transaction?

00:11:04:12 - 00:11:20:01
Jennifer Geary
You know, how many of these do I need to sell in order to turn a profit and break even? Like like you've got to have that. And even if you're if you feel a bit of a numbers phobe like you've got to find a way that you understand intrinsically the economics of what it is that you're selling, whether it's a product or service or something like that.

00:11:20:09 - 00:11:34:12
Jennifer Geary
You know, I think there is there's a learning, isn't there, and a humility to making a payroll, to tidying up your office at the end of the night to, you know, doing all, you know, to putting out a blog post, even if you're not comfortable with it, you know, and all that kind of thing. So I agree with you.

00:11:34:12 - 00:11:50:14
Jennifer Geary
I think the more you and especially for people early in their careers, the do it, you know, learn, ask someone. There's lots of people out there willing to help and advise and show and do it because you're right, you learn it and you should never expect somebody to do something that you wouldn't be prepared to do yourself and that you don't have some degree of understanding,

00:11:50:14 - 00:12:16:29
Jennifer Geary
right? So I agree with everything you said about early stage and bootstrapping and that sort of thing. But then the second point to what you said, and I do see this with some founders sometimes is they're reluctant to to part with the money, right? You know, they're reluctant to to pay for that kind of expertise. But if that's holding back your business, if that's stopping you from scaling and growing faster or stopping you from clinching that sale or, you know, you know, getting that bigger customer and so on, well then then it's a false economy right then then you're just holding back.

00:12:17:03 - 00:12:41:07
Matt Haycox
100%. You know, you need to decide what it is you want to achieve from the outset. Are you looking for a lifestyle business? And if you're looking for a lifestyle business, fine, I get it. You probably want to hire as few people as possible, keep as much yourself, be tight and keep the money. But if you want to grow a business, if you want to scale, if you want to achieve anything of greatness, then you cannot put a price on high quality staff who are going to take you on on that journey because there is no way to build anything great without having great people around you.

00:12:41:14 - 00:12:56:02
Jennifer Geary
Yeah, and I would actually counter argue that if you want a lifestyle business and if you want some more time to yourself, then once you've achieved that level of skill, that's actually when you need a really, you know, competent operations manager, you know, finance manager, director, you know someone who's going to, who’s going to manage that stuff for you as well.

00:12:56:05 - 00:12:57:00
Jennifer Geary
So true.

00:12:57:06 - 00:13:05:16
Matt Haycox
True, true. Yeah. Well, look, let's let's let's move from operating to risk so we know what a chief operating officer is now, what is a chief risk officer?

00:13:05:29 - 00:13:27:24
Jennifer Geary
So look, and not every organization will have a chief risk officer. I fully get that. And it's again, a particular term that's in certain sectors. It's just known in finance and med and pharma and air. You know, in regulated industries you will have a chief risk officer, but not all the case. But what I really wanted your listeners to understand is really what the function is.

00:13:27:24 - 00:13:47:10
Jennifer Geary
And even if you don't have a CRO, how you cover some of the things that that that a CRO would typically do and that starts with an understanding of risk. And what I mean by risk is not some sort of nebulous concept out there or some checklists or boxes that needed to be ticked. It is what is the impact of uncertainty on your objectives, right?

00:13:47:10 - 00:14:02:14
Jennifer Geary
So whatever your business objectives are, right, I want to grow to this. I want to enter that market. I want to get to the size. I want whatever that is. What could happen to disrupt that vision? And risk is is no more, no less than that. And of course, risk can be upside as well as as well as downside.

00:14:02:14 - 00:14:24:08
Jennifer Geary
So risk can be seemingly unexpected things that knock you off course from where you want to be. But upside risk is saying, well, you know what could happen to our advantage actually? What's out there, that if we capitalize, if we do something now, we'll actually, you know, give us a give us a boost into the future. There was a lovely story about, you know, a COO that that sort of anticipated some issues with supply chain.

00:14:24:09 - 00:14:40:29
Jennifer Geary
It may have been before the whole sort of evergrand issue and that sort of thing. But they they antici- or maybe it was COVID or something, but they anticipated supply chain problems and they convinced the organization to borrow and to- and to to stock in advance of the supply chain disruption. They got the stock at good price and they averted a problem.

00:14:40:29 - 00:15:05:00
Jennifer Geary
I mean, that's that's really clever forward anticipation and taking advantage and also avoiding pitstops along the way. So you may not need a chief risk officer in that title, but what you do need, both in terms of your own discipline or in having mentors and advisors, is people to say to you, Okay, Matt, what is it you want to achieve with your business in the next year or two years, five years? And what could happen to help that and what could happen to set that back?

00:15:05:03 - 00:15:22:07
Jennifer Geary
And let's talk about that right? And let's talk about the kind of organization that you were setting up and what its goals are and what its ethos is and what its brand is and its values and so on. And let's start to set some guidelines as to what we're going to do within that space and when we're going to know that we're hitting up against the boundaries of that space.

00:15:22:07 - 00:15:40:15
Jennifer Geary
Right? So that's a really good risk management conversation. Bad risk management conversations are, you know, I'm the department of No, I tell you why you can't do things. I, you know, put doubt in your mind. I hold you back. I de-energize you. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is intelligent, thoughtful conversations to ultimately get you to where you want to get to.

00:15:40:20 - 00:16:16:00
Matt Haycox
Well, I mean, you've kind of partially taken my question away from me, which was which was going to be to say that I'm sure many business owners who’ve either experienced risk officers or risk departments or ones who have actually employed them themselves would use that analogy, what you were just saying then about, you know, the Department of No, and that they are the business prevention unit and, you know, whatever expression that you want to use. You used the word entrepreneurial earlier on in the conversation and I've kind of made a note of it because I wanted to tie in with how does a chief risk officer operate from an entrepreneurial perspective?

00:16:16:00 - 00:16:35:11
Matt Haycox
And I mean, how do they strike that balance? And I guess as a business owner looking to employ someone in a CRO type position, how would you find the right person and how would you get the best out of them so that they can still do their job of managing risk? But you know, they can walk the balance of the fact that, you know, if they took care of every risk, you would never grow the business.

00:16:35:20 - 00:16:55:20
Jennifer Geary
Absolutely. You know, you could talk yourself out of anything, right. You know, and it's a matter of finding finding the right person for you organization. So so it starts with and as a founder, obviously, you have this a really clear understanding of the type of organization that you're trying to grow. And are you you know, and depending on the sector that you're in and the line of business that you're in, you know, are you going to be bold and brave?

00:16:55:20 - 00:17:18:02
Jennifer Geary
Are you going to move fast and break things? Are you going to, you know, Richard Branson's book, Screw it, Let's do it. You know, is it that kind of an organization that just needs to go out and be experimental and propositional and actually is prepared to take some risk along the way, too, to break new ground and to learn and to find things or maybe because of the sector that you work in or whatever, do you need to be that safe pair of hands, for example, And not every chief risk officer will be right for every situation.

00:17:18:02 - 00:17:41:09
Jennifer Geary
Right. You know, and again, that your I think you you know, your implicit point was you've got to match the person to the situation. Everything whatever area you're working in, obviously, you start with law and you start with regulation and you start with all those practices that need to be done. But then within that, it's finding the person that shares in your vision, understands what it is that that, that you're trying to do and believes in that vision and is just as invested as you in the success of that venture.

00:17:41:09 - 00:17:55:06
Jennifer Geary
But then what they bring is a skill set to say, Okay, I understand where we're looking to get to and I want to get there too. But let me help you, right. Let let let me help you anticipate problems. Let me tell you where the red lines are that we really can't go outside and within that space then, let's let's move let's move really fast.

00:17:55:06 - 00:18:10:28
Jennifer Geary
Let's move with integrity. One organization I worked at talked about, You don't say We can't because... You say We can if, right? And that's a really important pivot. You know, we can do this as long as we do that that and that, right and that sort of thing. And you really as a CRO, you really don't want to be in the situation.

00:18:10:28 - 00:18:32:24
Jennifer Geary
I have. There have been times when I've been the sole voice in the room and all eyes were on me. And I've had to say, Guys, we're not ready. You know, we're not ready. We're not ready to launch. But you really don't want to get to that point, right? What you want is a more trusting, informed relationship whereby there aren't those kind of difficult moments of surprises where you're all invested and you're talking about what what it's going to take to get your product or service to the next stage.

00:18:33:08 - 00:18:43:04
Matt Haycox
For both of these roles, I mean, other the kind of roles that could be part time and outsource to a degree or are they very integral full time parts of parts of a business?

00:18:43:18 - 00:19:00:20
Jennifer Geary
No, absolutely. You can have fractional COOs, you can have fractional CROs. You know, you've got to be realistic, of course, about the amount of ground that can be covered and, you know, say, a couple of days a week and that sort of thing. You can have advisors on your board who give you some of that sort of horizon scanning and scenario analysis and that kind of thing.

00:19:00:20 - 00:19:17:19
Jennifer Geary
So I think that's exactly right. And particularly as you're growing an organization and mindful of cost and so on, it's a great way to have some of that expertise, but manage the costs and the overhead of all of that as well. So and if it's going well, then hopefully if your organization grows, then you can take more of that person's time and make more full time.

00:19:17:19 - 00:19:18:13
Jennifer Geary
Yeah.

00:19:18:13 - 00:19:42:12
Matt Haycox
I mean, have you seen any major changes in the kind of, you know, risk operating landscape or COO type landscape over the past few years? I mean, obviously, I mean, Covid's an obvious factor that I guess has probably made people more risk conscious. So, I mean, it’s probably an interesting thing to talk about, you know, how many businesses did or didn't miss, you know, COVID as a as an event?

00:19:42:12 - 00:19:51:24
Matt Haycox
I mean, I mean, when you're planning for risk, I mean, do you plan for Black Swan events as well, or do you have to say, listen, that is so big and wild that, you know, if we plan for it, we'd never get anything done?

00:19:52:12 - 00:20:12:00
Jennifer Geary
Yeah, I think I think with COVID, I think probably everyone had in their scenario mapping the idea of of of a pandemic. But I think probably what we thought about was kind of everyone being sick, right? And - lots and lots of people being sick. What we didn't think about was this, my goodness, like almost two year horizon of people not being in the office.

00:20:12:05 - 00:20:32:13
Jennifer Geary
That wasn't a scenario that I think anybody specifically mapped. And those organizations that had really, you know, modern tech were on cloud based technology. A lot of them were able to just sort of go home, open up the laptop and keep going and, you know, showed great resilience in that time. And other organizations had to very quickly modernize some of their tech because they were relying on old VPN lines and all that kind of thing.

00:20:32:14 - 00:20:57:15
Jennifer Geary
And it was hugely disruptive and stressful. And, you know, we're I think we're still living out some of the implications of of that COVID time. But it also opened up new flexibility in terms of ways of working, in terms of locations of working. It's probably helped a lot of people in terms of their facilities costs. So I think that's an enormous change massively, and not just not just sort of needing fewer seats and all that kind of thing, but the flexibility that we now have with flexible offices and so on.

00:20:57:15 - 00:21:13:17
Jennifer Geary
You know, you probably remember, you know, you might need to take out like a five year lease or a ten year lease on a building in the past. And now you pay by the month, right? So I think that whole side of things, even since I wrote the COO book five years ago, that's changed massively. So facilities management is a is a very different beast to what it was.

00:21:13:17 - 00:21:34:03
Jennifer Geary
The technology landscape is obviously changed as well. It's so blisteringly fast now to spin up a technology instance to use at SAS code, to use APIs to, you know, put pieces together to make a customer experience, you know, Shopify, Stripe, all that kind of thing. So that's changed massively in the last while. I think people agenda has changed hugely.

00:21:34:03 - 00:21:51:20
Jennifer Geary
I think the whole cultural agenda has changed very much as well. There’s focus on mental health, there’s a focus on diversity in a way that there never was before. And I think the last big thing for me that I wrote a whole chapter about in in in my second book was the whole area of sustainability. And I want to define sustainability.

00:21:51:20 - 00:22:11:04
Jennifer Geary
So, yes, you know, it's being eco friendly and recycling and, you know, thinking about your supply chain and all that kind of thing. But actually much more. It's about the sustainability of like the purpose of your business. Like what are you in business to do? Is it a good business model? Is it is it helping people? Is it furthering, you know, the cause of humanity in some way or other?

00:22:11:04 - 00:22:26:11
Jennifer Geary
Or is it actually something that's draining resources, that's ultimately causing damage and so on? So sustainability of purpose. And then, yes, how you run your supply chain, how you look after your people and all that kind of thing. So sustainability in the in the broadest possible sense, I think is an issue like it never was before.

00:22:26:25 - 00:22:41:29
Matt Haycox
Well, you've mentioned a couple of times your book now, and obviously I introduced you as an author when we started this. Let's segue onto that and, you know, tell us how the books came about, because you've got two haven’t you? One as a How to be a CRO. One How to be a COO. What was the thinking behind it?

00:22:42:14 - 00:22:49:19
Jennifer Geary
Well, first of all, they're the two C-suite roles that I've held. So, you know, I wasn't going to write about something else, was I? But so the.

00:22:50:09 - 00:22:57:27
Matt Haycox
I mean, I mean, what was the thinking behind writing the book? Not not why you choose, why you chose to particular particular.

00:22:58:12 - 00:23:19:07
Jennifer Geary
I got your question - no, and in fact I may co-author some in future in other disciplines. But when I got my first COO role... Look, I was pretty experienced at that stage. I had worked in operations, I had worked in risk, I'd worked in finance, I'd had a little bit of exposure to legal. So I came with a pretty, you know, good suite of skills.

00:23:19:07 - 00:23:37:12
Jennifer Geary
But by no means did I have all of the things that are needed to be COO. Right? So and I think I mentioned earlier, you know, I counted 16 different things that you needed to have at least a working knowledge of to be CEOs. There was, you know, supply chain. There was PR, there was internal comms, there was external comms, there was safeguarding in the area I was in at the time.

00:23:37:12 - 00:23:55:23
Jennifer Geary
And you know, how I managed it was, you know, I dug really, really deep. I was very honest in my first role about what I did and didn't have expertise in. I read the hell out of things, you know, I'm quite like I'm quite a reader, I'm quite a researcher. So I researched on all the areas that I could and I asked people and I said, you know, can I pick your brain?

00:23:55:23 - 00:24:08:28
Jennifer Geary
You know, can you talk me through this? I think this is what I need to worry about. What am I missing anything? And so just through kind of graft and grind, you know, I was able to have the working knowledge that I needed to be successful and obviously leaned on some very capable people in those areas as well,

00:24:08:28 - 00:24:25:04
Jennifer Geary
while I, while I came up the learning curve. But one of my frustrations, you know, when I was researching was where's the book? Where's the book on it? Like, why can't I go onto Amazon and buy a handbook for a Chief Operating Officer? And it really didn't exist. So when I finished that role, I vowed I was going to write down what I had learned.

00:24:25:04 - 00:24:42:17
Jennifer Geary
So 16 disciplines a chapter for each one. I had each chapter vetted by an expert in that field to make sure that I hadn't missed anything and that it was good. And it seems to have proven really helpful to people. So, you know, the book has sold really well. Almost every week, Matt, I got an email from someone going, Thank you so much for your book.

00:24:42:17 - 00:24:57:14
Jennifer Geary
You've really helped me. You know, I'm in my first role. I've just stepped up. I'm aspiring to that role and you've really helped me so that on those days I have a smile on my face for the rest of my day. Right. Because, you know, I know that it's been valuable. So that was - it was born out of need and it seems to have filled a need.

00:24:57:28 - 00:25:04:17
Matt Haycox
How did you find the book writing process? How long did it take you? Did you have an editor? Did you self-publish? How did it all work?

00:25:05:05 - 00:25:28:13
Jennifer Geary
Yeah, I self-published mainly because I was sort of unknown in the world of writing or anything like that. I'm not sure like how I would have even approached a publishing house. But then I quickly realized how... And even since then, it's matured even more since then. Like how enabling a space it is now. So I found the writing good and, and sort of a complete juxtaposition to having a like a busy day job.

00:25:28:14 - 00:25:40:16
Jennifer Geary
I can't write and work, you know, I can't come home in the evening and go, Right, I’ll bash out a chapter now. I've always had to carve out some time to actually just devote myself to writing. But the contrast between that in the day job, when you don't have anyone else to manage, you don't have lots of meetings.

00:25:40:16 - 00:26:05:16
Jennifer Geary
It's kind of, you know, quite solitary. I quite like it actually and, and I find it quite cathartic to get your thoughts down on paper and to to kind of see how much you do know as well. I'm working with someone on another book at the moment and she's saying, Oh, it's actually it's really helping with my imposter syndrome because I'm writing all this stuff down and I'm realizing I do know, like, I really do know this, I do know my stuff and, you know, just just through the sheer volume of of what she's able to put down on paper.

00:26:05:16 - 00:26:21:18
Jennifer Geary
So as long as you have a structure, that's that's the advice I give to anybody who's thinking of writing something. You know, if you can map out a table of contents, if you can think about the different content areas, if you've got enough there and you can still feel that you've got energy and things to say, then yeah, you've probably got you probably got a book.

00:26:21:18 - 00:26:38:16
Jennifer Geary
And then it's almost like I'd want to say filling in the gaps is a bit more to it than that. But you know, it's- then, then the meat is there and you work from there. So I've enjoyed it to answer your, your questions. Yes, you can get really excellent editors. There's platforms, there's apps for that. You can get really great cover designers, you can get really great proofreaders.

00:26:38:16 - 00:26:56:07
Jennifer Geary
You know, you want to make sure obviously that what you produce is really high quality and looks great and stands up to scrutiny and so on. And you know, the Amazon KDP platform where my book is, is is great and allows authors to keep an awful lot more of their royalties I'm led to believe, than if you go by a publishing house.

00:26:56:07 - 00:26:57:08
Jennifer Geary
So yeah I love it.

00:26:57:19 - 00:27:03:21
Matt Haycox
How does it work on Amazon? Do they do like a Kindle version? And the printed version for you? Is that how it works?

00:27:04:06 - 00:27:29:21
Jennifer Geary
Yeah, that's right. You can, you know, you can choose. I've gone with paperback and e-book. I haven't yet had the bravery to sit down and do an audible, but I'm working up the, working up the energy to do that - well this has been good practice for you - yeah, absolutely. You know, just, just, you know, we used to, you know, the way we all hate the sound of our own voices, you know, getting used to hearing your voice back and, you know, sitting down to do that, whatever it would be 12 hours of narration to get it done.

00:27:29:25 - 00:27:33:21
Jennifer Geary
So yeah, you can choose the different formats that you have and you know, that's up to you.

00:27:33:29 - 00:27:45:27
Matt Haycox
Well, for anyone listening, I'm sure there's many people now who want to go and either download the Kindle version or go buy the Hardback, well the printed version. Where do they do it? Where can they find you? Where can they find more about you?

00:27:46:03 - 00:27:59:12
Jennifer Geary
Books are on Amazon. Just either search for me, Jennifer Geary, or by the name of the book How to be a Chief Operating Officer. How to be a Chief Risk Officer. My website is www.coo-author.com. I'm sure we can put some links somewhere Matt, where people can find them

00:28:00:03 - 00:28:03:00
Matt Haycox
Yeah, yeah, we'll put we'll put all this stuff in the show notes for sure

00:28:03:10 - 00:28:12:28
Jennifer Geary
When's your book coming out Matt? I mean, surely, you know, I think there's I think that there's enough accumulated experience and philosophy there surely to it to put it down on paper.

00:28:13:05 - 00:28:30:02
Matt Haycox
You know, I've got... I've not, I've probably got four or five partially partially finished books. Genuinely. I don't mean like ideas of- ones, the ones that I've actually started and never, never gotten any further and it's either ones I've done myself or something- something I've done as a, as a bit of a kind of a co-writing ghost author type stuff.

00:28:30:02 - 00:28:53:09
Matt Haycox
And for various, well, I say for various reasons, it always comes down to time. I've just never quite gotten them over the edge. But my, my 2023 plan, was about to say 2022. But my 2023 plan is definitely, definitely to get to get at least one of them printed. I've actually- I’m just launching a new website at the moment for our finance business, which is a Funding Guru. That's our brand that talks to borrowers. And about literally,

00:28:53:10 - 00:29:10:25
Matt Haycox
three years ago, four years ago, I actually did write and printed a PDF version. Basically everything you need to know about how to fund your business. But I've just I'd never, I'd never got round the publishing it, to sell it or publish it to give it away or whatever I was going to do. But I want to have it as a resource on this new website. And literally,

00:29:10:25 - 00:29:26:02
Matt Haycox
just this morning, I dug it out and say, I’ve got to find some time this weekend to go through this, make any other tweaks I want to do. I mean, talking about writing. I mean, I keep a reasonably regular blog and, you know, I do write a lot of my own stuff. I mean, to be honest, I’ve kind of written most of my own stuff A because I enjoy it.

00:29:26:02 - 00:29:57:14
Matt Haycox
And B, because I always find it very difficult to get anyone else to write to my tone of voice or to write to, I guess, my level of detail on a particular topic. But what I've found very good for helping me get more writing done this year. I know it sounds so simple, but it's always the simplest things that seem to work is is I actually physically carved out the time in my diary and this year I just I just put a recurring thing and every day of, you know, an hour or 90 minutes of content writing and I've got, you know, in my notes on my computer, I've got a long list of whether

00:29:57:14 - 00:30:14:06
Matt Haycox
it's ideas or topic headings or partially partially written things. And every day I've just been sitting down, I'm picking one of those headings and turning my telephone off or sticking it in the other room because I'm always so distracted. I just I just find in that hour, hour and a half, to blast through it because if I don't do that, then there’ll always be something else that takes over.

00:30:14:06 - 00:30:14:27
Matt Haycox
So yeah, that is...

00:30:14:28 - 00:30:30:11
Jennifer Geary
Absolutely. Treat it like a job, like everything else, I don't think, especially with sort of the kind of content that we create that it's a matter of, you know, writer's block or waiting for inspiration or anything like that. No, have your structure. And if you have, I don't know, ten chapters to write, it's fine on the day to go, You know what my energy is-

00:30:30:11 - 00:30:44:15
Jennifer Geary
I feel like writing about this right now. That's fine. Do that. Go where you feel like you've got something to say. But I think blog writing is great as well. You know, if you write a 1500 word blog, you write 10 or 15 of those, you've got a book! Right? you know, you know each blog post is a chapter.

00:30:44:15 - 00:31:05:14
Jennifer Geary
And I think your point clearly about carving out time and being free of distraction is is something. Sometimes cues help. So I play music, right? So I find them for me. Ludovico Einaudi It just is the perfect calming backdrop. It's my signal. It's kind of like my Pavlovian signal that I need to like, sit down and write and that sort of thing and just develop that habit over and over again.

00:31:05:14 - 00:31:24:09
Jennifer Geary
And even if on a particular day you're writing a part and think, Oh this rubbish. Fine. We’ll edit that paragraph out later, but just get started. Liz Gilbert, the writer of Eat Pray Love, calls it curing your throat. You know, just start writing. Even if the first couple of sentences are, you know, fine, you're just clearing your throat, you're just getting started and then just keep going, keep going, keep going.

00:31:24:09 - 00:31:37:20
Jennifer Geary
And, you know, think about the the end in mind, because I promise you, the day you get your cardboard box from Amazon with the first copies of your paperback, and the day, you hold it in your hands is just one of the best days of your life. It's such a fantastic achievement. So you keep that in your mind to keep going.

00:31:37:26 - 00:32:02:03
Matt Haycox
Well, I'll say as well as a kind of the last piece of advice from me to people on it is, thinking about what content you've already got to repurpose as well. And like you say, you know, if you sit down to write a 1500 word blog, ten of those and you’ve got a book. One of the avenues I was going down for one of the books I'm trying to write is, I, every Sunday, sit down and record a video of my weekly round up where I'll talk about three or four or five, whatever things that have happened to me in the week.

00:32:02:03 - 00:32:19:24
Matt Haycox
And it's not- just me with the camera on my own, you know, rambling away about, you know, a particular problem or a good thing, a bad thing or whatever it may be. And I found after I'd done the first 15 or 20 of these, talking about 3 to 5 things, 15 to 20 weeks, and all of a sudden there is literally 40 to 100, you know, different topics, different concepts.

00:32:20:01 - 00:32:33:14
Matt Haycox
And I just wanted to sit down, pick out the best ones and almost take a transcription from the video. Hack around the transcription and put it to a book. And all of a sudden, you know, you've got content a lot more easy than you would have ever thought it was possible.

00:32:33:28 - 00:32:49:17
Jennifer Geary
Yeah, different people work different ways. Some people love dictation software that works for them. It does need a bit of a QA afterwards for errors and that kind of thing. But no, it can totally work to get your thoughts down that way. I personally have no problem typing that works for me, but yeah, no, it very much depends on the person.

00:32:49:17 - 00:33:01:23
Jennifer Geary
And I think the other thing as well and I want to almost correct something that I said because, you know, it used to be the kind of perceived wisdom that you sort of have to write 35,000 words minimum for it to be book, for it to kind of stand up, to have a spine thick enough, all that kind of thing.

00:33:01:23 - 00:33:20:25
Jennifer Geary
But actually, in the age of e-books and in the age of how to and we learn, we learn via TikTok now and we learn via Facebook shorts and all that kind of thing, or it's our YouTube shorts. It doesn't have to be that way. I mean, you know Matt, like if you're looking for an answer to something and the answer is in a 20 page pamphlet or it's it's in a thousand word document, that's all you need.

00:33:20:25 - 00:33:33:07
Jennifer Geary
Right? And so I don't think there is even that high bar. I mean, again, it's obviously quality over quantity, right? You know, if you're solving a need, you’re answering a question that other people have, then that has value and that's worth putting out in the world.

00:33:33:18 - 00:33:51:24
Matt Haycox
100%. Well listen, Jenny, you've you've been bringing plenty of value to this podcast, so thank you very much. Thank you very much for being here. Obviously, you know, you've told everyone where we can find the book. Like I say, we'll put it in the show notes afterwards. I don't know if you I forget if you mention mentioned your Instagram and your LinkedIn handles and stuff, but if you didn't, you can do it now.

00:33:51:24 - 00:34:11:21
Matt Haycox
And if you did it, we're going to put it out in the show notes and stuff as well. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks a lot again, guys. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you very much for watching. As always, I am The Matt Haycox on all things social. That’s T H E M A T T H A Y C O X. If you've been listening to the audio version, you can jump over to YouTube and see my pretty face with the videos on this as well.

00:34:11:22 - 00:34:26:20
Matt Haycox
And if you've been watching it on YouTube and you don't like looking at my pretty face, then make sure you jump over to Apple, to Spotify, to iHeartRadio or wherever you listen to audio podcast to listen to it there. And guys, thanks again for listening. Jenny, Thanks for being here and I look forward to seeing you all in a future episode.

00:34:27:12 - 00:34:29:16
Jennifer Geary
Bye bye