Training Marines: Beyond the Battlefield with Sergeant Major Devaney

Music. All right. Sergeant Major, welcome back. We're just going to do a continuation, but we were talking a little bit before we started, and you wanted to touch base on Animal Company and every Marine is a rifleman.

Okay. So I kind of touched on it yesterday.

When I left Special Operations Training Group, I got the Animal Company, 1-7 Alpha Company, and the CO kind of let me do what I wanted to do. What I did is I took a few Marines from each company or each platoon. Forget weapons. So the first, the three platoons, the three rifle platoons, I took a couple of Marines from each and I turned them into my little cadre. And then we trained the company. But I drove the company insane because I dry practiced them.

Some people call it dry fire. I dry practiced them until they went insane because I didn't live fire them forever. But when they live fired, they were amazing because of all the dry practice. So anyway, so I was so lucky because when I got the animal company, I was a company gunning. The number two enlisted guy, but the tactician, enlisted tactician to the CEO. So he let me kind of do our thing and we kind of threw our special operations stuff on top of all of our regular infantry stuff.

And the animal company became awesome because I taught them that, you know, if you don't have a job, find a job. And whoever, I taught them IBT, which is initiative-based tactics, which means once the guns start shooting, initiative. You take the initiative. Whoever the hell is in front is in charge. I don't care if you're a PFC or the commandant of the Marine Corps. Whoever's in front is in charge. That's all there is to it when the bullets start flying.

And I just taught them to think like that. So anyway, that worked out great because I was the company gunning. And all these young Marines came in right before we went to combat or, as you were, before we deployed to Okinawa.

So these young pfcs and lance corporals up to corporals i trained these guys so now we go into combat two years later i've been brainwashing these kids for two years training them and these are the guys i took into combat these were my squad leaders my corporals i called my corporals i probably had 20 corporals 15 corporals when we crossed into the border but we only had like five sergeants we probably only had 20 ncos in our entire company

so yeah corporals were running the show but uh so yeah so when we went to count and that was their first sergeant but then i left animal company, and I went to the reserves, not just the reserves, but support, second BGO company. Wait, wait, wait. I got to interrupt here, Sergeant Major. Go ahead, sir. You have to tell the story about the unit you went to that you had to put on your uniform, but you always made fun of. Oh, that's it? Yeah. Okay.

Perfect. Okay. So as I'm leaving Iraq the second time, we stopped in Kuwait City, and we're getting ready to get on an airplane, and I'm going to the smoke pit, because that's where you find out all the information. I'm in the smoke pit with the Marines. And this little army chick comes over and she goes, hey, why do those Marines have red patches on the sides of their uniforms and on their covers? And before my Marines could give her a proper answer, I says.

You're not supposed to talk about it. They all have AIDS. They're all HIV positive. So that's what everyone knows to stay away from them. So I meant to tell her the truth, but I never saw her again. So I get to the States and the next thing you know, I get orders to second BTO company. Guess what? I had to wear a red patch for the next three years. So yeah, Yeah, payback's a bitch, karma.

What did the red patch mean i don't even know what it means uh well the red patch is it's the it's the battalion or the landing support guys and what it means is like when you get off of a helicopter or if you hit beach you see the red patches they are the ones directing traffic telling you which way to go also it authorizes them to go away from combat you know they can run away from combat to go get more stuff without someone

thinking of running away but the red patch came about within tarawa they went in and out through the uh water so much and there was so much blood in the water that you could tell who they were because their legs turned red. They're cammies. Therefore, that's why they go to red patch.

This is either, either that's the truth or it's a myth, one or the other. I'm not sure, but that's what I was always told.

So anyway, I get the BTO company and I said to the CEO, I say, hey, we're getting ready to deploy Marines to Iraq. I says, look, I only know one way to train Marines and that's like Marines. And he says, we'll do it. So I, I built up, I got one active duty Marine and then I had some reservists.

They were like cops. they were reserved you know but they were actually police officers and federal agents and stuff like that so i had this little cadre and we spent like six months dry practice in the company we never live fired but when we live fired man were they awesome and then we just trained and trained and i trained them for three years i was there trained multiple rotations into iraq and the marines did really well so i left there my buddy goes yeah it may have worked in

the grunts it may have worked on the reserves but there's no way it's gonna work in the air wing where i was going next yeah but i get there and we're getting ready to go to our rack and they said hey we got to have a qrf which is a quick reaction force to support our uh we had classified information so we had to secure that secure area our sip skiff and we had to secure our airplanes and secure area down there and to be able to

react to it so anyway i started training what i did is i built up a cadre took some of my admin guys and supply types or whatever you call them whatever support guys not not engine mechanics and stuff and i built a cadre and we drive practice again for a whole lot and And then we took them over to Iraq. And we didn't get a chance to live for it until we got to Iraq. But we had to go zero our weapons when we got there. And when we got there, we shot a whole lot of ammo.

So then we were there for seven months. And I knew lots of people. So I knew Marine infantry officers, gunners. And I knew...

Battalion commanders and i'm a sergeant major i know lots of people so guess what when they're leaving iraq they're dumping their ammo on me so my squadron in 14 months in iraq we fired over a quarter million rounds in a squadron let me tell you that's that's more than probably the freaking mag fires in a lifetime yeah we we shot our asses off we trained others other other units and all that and then i left uh q4 and i came to quantico and i thought i was done doing

the teaching but But then one of the young Marines talked me into running a couple of courses. And I just tell you how I run my course. I run a five-day course. And people are going to say this is stupid or whatever. But that's how I do it. I ran a five-day course. The first four days, they had no ammunition whatsoever. I made them wear all full kit, dropping mags, putting mags in, going back and forth. Are you familiar with the Australian Peel? No. Australian Peel is where your

two front men are firing. When they're out of ammo, they cut to the middle. The next two are firing. So you're live firing with people running by you. And I would do this with cooks, bakers, candlestick makers, not grunts, just everybody.

And after four days, on the fifth day, I'd bring five days worth of ammo and we'd go berserk. And I'd have cook, bakers, and candlestick makers would be out there doing a live fire, shooting, moving, all that, because we did four days of dry practice. I am big. I am huge on dry practice. I dry practice on my TV. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, not because I don't like the person, but I mean, hey, what else? You know, I do it all the time. I'm not like a psychopath. have.

I only do it 90% of the time. I'm just kidding. You know that, you know, I'm sorry, sir. Go ahead, sir. Go ahead, sir. That's fine. When I went to, when I left active duty the first time and I went to state, I told you we had two former Delta guys there that did a lot of the tactics training. And one of the guys, I'm not going to mention his name, uh, still friends with him. But when he went through OTC operators training course, he told us that,

that like for, I think it was literally like the first month they just dry fired. They videotaped them. They did pistol drills, fish and everything. And the first time they get ammo, they all go shoot and they do. I don't remember. It wasn't a shit ton of rounds, but it was a decent amount. And they all go and they're like, what the fuck, man, we could have been shooting. You know, this is a bunch of army guys, you know, type a guys, guys that like cream of the crop.

Actors are like, all right, go down, take a look. They all had like, like 10 or 20 rounds, order size at like 25 with their pistols and shit like that. He said, he goes, I was sold on that with dry. He told me that it sold on that with dry fire. And he, he was big when we were going through training and we would do like, even with SIM stuff, he was like, all right, let's, let's practice dry firing with the SIM guns and everything.

He's like, well, if you're not, because he was big with like, if you get a gun, you know, you got to shoot it and make sure it's good for you. But he goes, if you, you know, you're going to get a gun sometimes and you're not going to have time. Get some dry fire reps in. He was big like that. So, like, Ty, actually, so the point of the animal company and the Everett Merrin's a Ruckman is. I'm telling you right now, that's just the thing. Every Marine's a rifleman. Not an infantryman, a rifleman.

But that's only if the commander and that senior enlisted ensure that they get the training. When I was in the wing, I sent Marines over to Camp Lejeune to go hang out at sniper school.

They loved it. They came back with a whole new look on life. You know, look on life. Outlook on life. They went over to combat town and watched the grunts getting ready to go into Afghanistan, etc. And it gave them a whole different outlook on life. I mean, they weren't just putting airplanes in the air, they were putting airplanes in the air to support those guys that were just watching at Camp LeJune. And it makes a difference.

It absolutely does. Well, we're going to jump around a little bit, but I asked my son to ask his buddies, if you're okay with it, I'll just jump in. It kind of flows to what we're talking about.

So this was three questions they came up with. And the first one is, what is it like to be in combat for an extended period of time? Okay, what is it like to be in combat for an extended period of time? It's 99.9% boredom and then 1% or that 0.0001% of absolute terror. Now, from my experience, if you're well-trained, just like with law enforcement, if you're well-trained, you will perform properly. You will never rise to the occasion in combat. That's a bunch of bullshit.

You will sink to your training. So get all the training you can, do everything you can. But the extended combat type thing, I'm not really sure how to answer that. I mean, do you mean like sustained, you're receiving fire or sustained or just being out there for a long time deployed? Oh, I think they both have an effect on your mentally, physically. I mean, sure, sure.

But, you know, I mean, I probably the worst night, most dangerous night probably of my life was during the invasion where there was one night when we were getting across the Ali River and they knew we were coming.

They freaking knew we were going to cross that river the next day so they just like what they did is they launched rpds but not not like rpd they're also like mortars so like all night long it's like these freaking buildings were crashing all around us and everything and uh if you know how our body armor works it's kind of kind of you kind of you're like a turtle so i i was laying on the ground bottom and all kicked back and i was just terrible position but i was comfortable and And

he's kind of like almost asleep. And we were getting bombed. And one of my corpsmen came over and said, first sergeant, get up. They're bombing us. And I was like, doc, leave me alone when I'm sleeping. But anyway, he got me up and we got out of there. And we finally survived.

And then the next morning we hit him with, are you familiar with line charges? Yes. He hit them with three. They set off three line charges at the same time. Let me tell you, one is big. Three. And what they did is they set them up on the bridge and in front of the bridge and all this stuff. These idiots, they'd taken mines and they threw them on the road. They didn't dig them in. They just threw them on the road. Anyway, the lion charged them across.

We crossed the river and whatever. But that was a very long night. But it was, you know, yeah, we survived. Got to be that. Anyway, so I don't know if that helped any. What was the second question? Yeah. Well, there's three. The second part, the second one is how do you stay alert for an extended combat? That's a really good question. Now, well, like during it, during the invasion anyway, we were in armored vehicles and I was in the troop commander's hat. So I was invisible.

I'm up to the scene all the time. My members in the back, they can sleep the whole time if they want. Unless we got them standing up. A lot of times I'm the only one awake. So to stay awake, believe it or not, I just kept MRE crackers with me. And I just, if I started falling asleep, I'd crack a little bit of the thing off and just munch on it just to keep myself awake. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's hard. I mean, you're flying down the road and you're trying to stay alert. Yeah.

We were absolutely exhausted. The colonel can tell you. I mean, we didn't probably sleep properly for like, probably like 18 days. But I mean, we got to Baghdad. I think we got to Baghdad in like 16 days, which is incredible. How the hell we did that, I don't know. Yeah. We flew to there.

What up? Do you remember, Sergeant Major? we were we were in our mop suits tyler we had a mission oriented protective possible they were the chem suits because there was the big chem threat and like you know we didn't shower you didn't do anything i remember i think we were out what was it the former side of the nuclear reactor the right outside of bad that tut i don't remember the name of it i feel like that wasn't my area yeah i

was over i was over by the zoo i was with first tank battalion by then okay yes but i remember it was the day we got ordered to get out of our mop suits and put our cam on that's the morning after we got bombed yes the next morning we crossed the river into going over to the other side of baghdad the next day i think i i think i think someone said like sir they're shooting at us i'm like i don't think they're shooting at us they're just shooting i'm like i don't have a hole

so they're gonna get me they're gonna get me and i think i fell back asleep or something. Yeah. Yeah. Remember putting on my camis that day. And I, Tyler, I think I told you the story. Like we had the, I was in the ant trap. I was like in the TC, like the, the Sergeant Major was. And I remember I'm like, wow, it smells really bad. And I'm like, oh, that's me. I just reek. Yeah. Yeah. I can only imagine how, yeah. How, how hard that is.

Cause it gets to a point. You're so tired. It's like, I don't even care at this point. I need, I need to sleep. So on that note, which is kind of funny, we get into Baghdad and we had this one Quarman that was attached to us. He's an HM2. Outstanding. He was like our handyman for everything. But anyway, still don't know how he figured it out, but he went over. We were at the Martyrs Mall by the Baghdad Zoo, and he went out.

We were standing by the Martyrs Mall, and Doc went out in some field, and he pulled up a PVC pipe, and he cut the pipe, and he put it up in a tree.

And whenever he put it in a tree, the water wouldn't flow. But when you brought it down, it would so our first showers were with this freezing cold water out of these pipes that you pull out of the tree but here's the thing is you had two choices you could go out in the middle of night when it's black you know pitch black and you couldn't see or you could go out there when it's daylight and get shot at because the apartment buildings could see your butt ass naked

down there in that you know down at whatever and we got shot at all the time uh to the point where we had to actually bring in snipers to try to eliminate the threat we had where we were staying at from this burnout building that kept shooting at us, but we never got the little suckers. Anyway. Anyway, that's how we get out of the showers. All right. All right.

Last question, and then we'll get into the meetup. But I wanted to, I told my son I'd do this, so I'm going to do it. He didn't know how to phrase it, but he was just like, what are some things to look for so you don't die? Or be aware of. What are some of the things to look for so you don't die? Yes. Some tips, tricks? I don't know. I don't know what to look for. I just know that you want to be prepared. Be prepared. That's what matters. Here's the thing.

Even in martial arts or law enforcement, if you could have at least talked through something, if you can't train something, if you've at least talked through it, when it comes down to doing it, you might be okay. Training is the best way to do it, but whatever. But like I said, you've got to get the most training possible.

The more confident you are, think about it, even in law enforcement, the more in military, the more confident you are with that weapon, the less likely you are to use it in a direct contact situation. So the more proficient I am with my weapons, the less likely I'm to make a bad shot or even take a shot that I didn't need to. There were multiple times in Iraq where by the rules of engagement, I absolutely could have killed people. And I did not because the circumstances, I didn't have to.

I didn't have to. And I would have just made things worse. In other words, in both situations, it was in a crowd. So they wouldn't have cared if there was breaking the ROE, killing people in front of 200 people, even though they deserve it. Sometimes one-on-one. These are like, you know, hand-to-hand type situations. Anyway, I know that didn't answer this question, but I don't know how, I don't really know how to answer it.

I'd say get around good people, make sure you're around good people the best you can and try to avoid, maybe you're going to know who you can't trust. And we kind of talked about yesterday, just because that person has, it looks good in uniform and everything, doesn't mean they're going to perform in combat.

That guy that you think's a shit bird in the air might be the baddest mother that walks on the field of battle. Absolutely. You have no idea. The good guy in the rear may not be the good guy in combat, but usually they are. Usually they're the same people. Not always. No, for sure. He already has stories about that when he went through bootcamp where not the best PT stud, kind of the drill sergeant, drill instructor, sorry, wrote him where you might get punished once or twice.

He was getting punished seven or eight times, just really going after him and, you know, made him do a drill that most, most had to do once or something like that. They made him do it like four or five, like just really just trying to like, you're going to have to want this if you want to be a Marine. And he's like, dad, he fucking did it. And he made it. And he goes, he has nothing but the utmost respect from everybody. He goes, I would go to war with that dude in a heartbeat.

But while you're in training, he was that guy that everybody's like, yo, he's not going to make it. And but because he locked in focused or whatever his purpose, reason being, he's like they had nothing but the utmost respect. Well, the recruit I mess with the very most, my very first patrols of Fort Ed, I had no job. So I mess with recruits. But this one here was my special guy. And I knew a total. And so whenever I was born, I'd go mess with the recruit. And I told him, I says, you know what?

You're the toughest recruit I ever had. I mean, I did everything I could to break that kid. And I kind of did break him, but broke him and made him stronger and broke him and made him stronger. What it was is when they were in a PT, they were in a special, they called portholes, glasses, but they had a PT strap so they wouldn't fall off. So he got sores over his ears. So, I mean, not that I would ever do this, but I mean, just imagine if somebody

came by and grabbed that strap every once in a while. down on them things. I mean, that would be messed up. Yeah. Yeah. I would never do that. For sure. For sure. I talk to the kid on Facebook every day. Oh, yeah. Very often. Well, you got to have respect for somebody who wants it that bad, that they're willing to deal with it. But actually, this just kind of ties in. So a few things I just wanted to kind of get out there.

So Marine, to the best of your ability, describe Marine Corps culture and the tie in being is with the Marine Corps overall. But are there different cultures within the different companies within the Marines? I got you. There's absolutely. So there's absolutely the Marine culture. All Marines love all Marines, right? Yes. But then there's MOSs talk crap about other MOSs, et cetera. But yeah, there's small little worlds. There's many different worlds.

In fact, if you look at a lot of my career, I wasn't with, I was in little 16-man platoons. Before my first six deployments, I was with just little tiny platoons. And I operated usually with two to four people. So we lived in a very small world. A lot of people knew who we were, and we didn't know them. But yeah, so I'm airborne. I'm a jump master. So there's very few jump masters in the entire Marine Corps. There's very few airborne guys.

In fact, a lot of guys in 1.7, they see me years later and go, hey, when did you get gold wings? I'll be like, wait a minute. I never saw you wear them in 1.7, but I didn't wear them in 1.7 because we were training all the time. For one, you know, they hurt. If you put them, you don't wear them under body armor. And number two is nobody had jump wings. So, I mean, nobody had wings. So I just didn't wear them.

Yeah. Yeah. What's the difference? You know, who gives a shit? Speaking of the wings, real quick, I'm at Army Jump Master School in Fort Benning, Georgia, and I'm pissed off because I have to walk, I have to take a taxi from the airport to get into whatever and I got to walk down to the command thing and walk up to jump master school. So I'm not happy, but I'm walking along and I don't have jump wings on because

you don't wear jump wings when you're going to jump. I'm going to jump master school as I'm walking along. Anyone's ever been in jump school know what I'm talking about. So in a jump school area, you have to run at all times and you have to be with two people at least. So I'm walking up the sidewalk, not happy, and a couple of the Blackhats, airborne instructors, scream out the window. They're like, airborne! They're screaming and yelling at me like they're drone instructors.

And I'm a staff sergeant. And I'm like, I gave them the finger or something. And they came running out like they were drilling sources. What am I? Screaming, yelling, you want an airborne area? I'm like, hey, shut up, idiots. I'm going to jump master school. They're like, where are your wings? And that Marines will appreciate this, but the Army's not going to like what I'm about to say.

But they say, where's your wings? I says, oh, you mean my gold wings or your faggoty little freaking lead sled? Whatever. And they just, they were pissed and just turned around and walked away. Whatever. I was just having fun with them. I have respect for what they do. I do. No, for sure. It's fun to mess with him. No, I've seen it and I've been around it, right? People in the military, they all have the mutual respect for each other, but nobody busts each other's

balls like Marines or Army or Army, whatever. They all bust each other's balls. But I will tell you this. You take a bunch of SF dudes or a bunch of Marine Corps recon snipers and SEALs and a bunch of even SWAT dudes, and you put them all in the same room, and they're all going to talk shit about each other but all appreciate each other. And when you leave, you'll think they're all gay because they'll keep calling you sort of faggot and everything. So the bro-man is real.

It's all in fun though. It's all in fun. Yeah. Yeah. I've told Adam about that. It's similar to being on a football team. There's a hundred dudes and you start questioning things when you get alone in the shower and you're all showering together. Stuff happens. But, you know, those are your brothers. I definitely, I understand the camaraderie.

There's a joke always that like, you know, like especially with Marines, it's like when Pride Month comes, everybody's like like there's there's a meme out there where there's like a kid has his Marine Corps flag in like a dorm room and the person's like, oh, I didn't know you celebrated Pride Month because it's like it's like. Like, especially in, in Sergeant Major, can tell you, especially infantry, I don't know what, like the, the, the man love is, is abundant through all the

ranks. And it's just, it's, you know, it's, it's the sign of love, really. That's really, that's really it. Like, honestly, you know, in the Marine Corps, the word gay does not mean what everyone else thinks it means. It just means, it just means, Hey, what do you think of this? Oh, it's gay. It doesn't, it means good, bad. It means everything. It means whatever the hell you want it to mean. It's, it's not degrading. It's just a fun word.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So we've talked about it and you've written, I don't know if you've written books or stories or you've definitely done presentations, but leadership, how would you define it? What is good leadership? What is lacking? Three part. And I'll remind you, you get lost on that, but I like, I like to add, I like to do multiple questions for some reason.

Okay, so I have an entire unedited book called, I call myself Coyote Brown, Coyote Brown's Little Book of Unorthodox Leadership. Because I'm not filtered. I have no filter. In fact, often my friends say to me, hey, Dave, don't sugarcoat it, you know, after I go crazy. And then I've also been accused of having Tourette's because everyone else will say things are fine and I go freaking out and have a fuck fit. Whatever.

And they be like, yay, he's going Tourette's again. But I don't just sit there. A lot of times people just sit there and say, everything's fine when it's not. And I can't do that. But I'm a very unorthodox leader when it comes to a lot of things. I think a lot of staff and CEOs have the problem that they're afraid to ever ask someone junior to them for help or how they do something. And it's terrible. It's absolutely terrible. And I don't care what job you're in.

If you're a supervisor and you don't ask your people what they do, because you don't do it, you're wrong. But there's a lot of things where my leader, I'm very sarcastic, and I like to joke with people. And when things are worse, I like to make the biggest jokes. And a lot of my peers did not like that. In fact, the colonel can tell you, probably might be able to tell you that Bravo Company and 1-7, that leadership. I trained Marines from every company in that battalion except for Bravo Company.

Because their commanding officer and their enlisted leadership, their officers and their enlisted leader, the top one, had a problem with me. They thought I was unprofessional, et cetera. I mean, professionally, whatever, dude. It's whatever you think it is. You know what I'm saying? I mean, the most professional units I've ever been in, we use first names. But in the Marine Corps, that's on her. Oh, my God, you use first names? Oh, my God, yeah. Yeah, the baddest motors I've ever known.

You talk by first name. You know, I've had colonels when I was a staff sergeant call me by my first name. I still called him Colonel, but they called me by my first name at times when it was just the two of us talking. For sure. You know? But so did that even come close to answering any of your questions? I think it did. No, I definitely think it did, and I appreciate it. Okay. You know what? Hold on to tell you. I'll tell you. I'll give you a quick example. So I'm at Quantico.

I'm walking along with my colonel, shaking hands as I try to do every day, shake hands with as many people as possible. And I stop. We're at the pistol range. And I stop, and I grab this corporal hand, and I tell the sergeant, hey, take care of this. Take his position. He's a coach. I take him out in the parking lot, talk to him for 20 minutes, 15 minutes, whatever it was. I come back. He gets on the line, Colonel and I keep on walking.

And the Colonel, he goes, hey, Sergeant Major. He goes, what was that all about? He goes, well, I says, you know, he's got a problem with his wife. He says, well, how'd you know? I says, because he acted different. He goes, what do you mean he acted different? I says, well, I shake his hand every day. And today he didn't greet me the way he does every day because everyone does things differently. But he acted differently than he does on other days.

Therefore, I looked into it. And, you know, he was like, oh, my wife's upset with me because, you know, I'm a coach. I'm working, you know, 27 hours a day and I'm never home. oh my God, I just got out of combat to get arrested. This is no resting. And I said, look, you know, here's what I always tell them. I say, do you love her? And if they say yes, I said, then go home and buy some flowers, go get some flowers and a card and say, thank you for being there for me.

You know, thank you. I'm sorry that I have to work all these hours, but whatever. But you know what? She's sacrificing too. Either make her happy or move on, one of the others. That's what I say. But on that note, so I'm in, now I'm in Iraq one time. This is 2008 or 2009. And I get confused because I was there both years at different times. So I left and came back. Anyway, I'm out in a little smoke pit area before you get into the headquarters. I'm going to a meeting.

And I talked to the sergeant for like 10 minutes. And I go in and I see a sergeant major. I say, hey, dude, what's up with a sergeant whatever? He's like, what are you talking about? And he had some serious issues. And I'm like, dude, you know, how come I've only met your Marine for freaking five minutes? He's telling me his life story. He's your Marine. You don't know anything about him. And what it is, I think a lot of the sergeant majors and senior enlisted or whatever rank.

They think that there's just a wrong, you know, whatever. I don't do that. I'm not a big motivator, screaming and yelling type person. And I just don't do that. I mean, to me, motivation is being out there and doing your thing. One time I was on a drill field and it was pouring rain. And we were out at the field portion. So drone sergeants weren't training them. The grunts that worked there were training them. So there was a pavilion there. It's pouring rain. I just went and stood under

the pavilion. I had nothing else to do. And there was a couple of Marines drone sergeants standing 10 feet away from me in the pouring rain. And they look at me and they go, hey, hey, Drone Sutter, aren't you a grunt? Why aren't you out here in the rain with us? And I'm like, because I'm a grunt, you idiot. Why would you stand in the rain when you can be dry? You know? And they've been out there so long, the campaign covers are starting to droop.

Freaking idiots. But it doesn't make you hard. That makes you stupid. It does. It's crossed the line.

And so I've never been in a leadership role like a supervisor or anything like that. But I've had my slew of really good leaders and really bad, poor leaders and everything in between. And it's those things like what makes a good leader. And I've tried to think about it. And I think the only thing I can come up with is sincerity, that you are sincere in whatever it is you're saying or doing, whether you're being a fucking asshole.

Hey, he's an asshole to everybody. He's sincere about that. Or you're the nice, friendly guy. Matter of fact, some of my favorite supervisors were assholes. They're like, dude, that guy's such an ass. I was like, yeah, but at least you know where you stand with them because the super nice friendly ones typically in my, from my experience with always the ones that would stab you in the back the first chance they got or not, not help you or whatever,

whatever the situation may be. And it's not really a personality thing. I've had the, the, the cerebral, I've talked about him on several episodes. I wrote, he was Hillsborough County, very like cerebral dude. I mean, he was doing, you know, Star Wars references. He would reference Darwin. Man, like he's teaching law enforcement and he's referencing these things, Conan the Barbarian.

And then he speaks multiple languages, very cerebral dude, but he was, he would give you his time and he was very intentional and sincere and trying to help you. And I've also had some straight knuckle draggers that I don't know that I wasn't always confident they knew how to read that well, but I'll tell you right now, they were great investigators. They were great cops and they were great people. You see what I mean?

But it's that I just, anytime you get up with leadership, I just like to hear the different thoughts on it.

So, did you want me to elaborate on that? Yes, please. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Some people, yeah, I agree. Definitely. I was always hard on my Marines. I was. But you know what? They always knew I was coming from, you know, some people think this is weird, but I always say I was always coming from a place of love. Even when I was torturing them, I wanted them to be the best Marines possible. I mean, I wanted them to get to the Fleet Marine Force. I wanted,

when someone says, who was your drone instructor? If they use my name, I wouldn't want them to say, oh my God, he trained you. You're a turd. But, you know, so I wanted to produce the best Marines I possibly could. But if you don't mind, I want to say something real quick, because I've kind of busted on Bravo Company multiple times now. And it was not the Marines. It was absolutely the CEO, a couple of his officers, and their senior enlisted.

And I want to defend their company. And I don't know if the colonel remembers this, but we had a task force solder in the fall of 2003. and it was led by Captain Rao. Do you remember Captain Rao? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. Okay. I remember, you know, Major, you know, his... He got killed on the next deployment. He got killed his first day over there, I think it was, first or second day.

But anyway, so he was the commander of Task Force SOTR and it was two-thirds Animal Company, my Marines, and one-third Baker Company, Bravo Company, their company. And we had Gunny, oh my God, Craig Marshall, Gunny Marshall, Stats Army Peterson were the element commanders or leaders and then the colonel or the captain at the time and then Major. He was the task force commander, but I was their trainer. And I'll never forget going down there and they're like, hey,

yeah, you're going to be training this task force. I'm like, great. So I'm thinking, well, if I'm training, I get to go too, right? And they're like, the colonel's like, no, you don't get to go. You're just going to train them. I'm like, no, sir, I got to go. He goes, no, you got a stats Army, Johnny. You got a captain. There's no need for a first sergeant to be there. And I was like, son of a bitch, I got to train this unit and I don't even get

to go with them? Are you kidding me? But let me tell you. After we trained, I mean, because they left their units, and they came to us, and we had them 24 hours a day, and we trained the shit out of them. There was an A-team, you know, ODA, Operational Detachment Alpha Special Forces Team, at the university, not my compound, but the battalion compound. I was there, Charlie, Charlie. Okay, there you go. Do you remember, did you know there was an ODA there? Yeah.

They were awesome guys, because I think a couple of them, at least two of them were former Marines back in the day. They were all coming over. So I went to them, and I said, hey, I've got to train this task force, because I've been with SF quite a few times. And I said, hey, I know these guys. I've been with fifth group before. These guys are fifth group. I said, hey, can you help me out? I said, hey, dude, we're too busy.

We can't help you out. But we got a lot of ammo. I said, what can you do, man? And we got a range. So I remember, sir, they had a range right behind their building. Yep, yeah. So for five days, I took them Marines out there, and I would shoot them until their weapons were on fire. I mean, just smoking. I actually got pictures of them guys shooting.

Man, and I'll tell you what, when I was done with them after five days, I mean, I shouldn't say this, but after two years of training in the Alpha Company, and after five days of training in the Bravo Company, guys, you couldn't tell who was who. They were all one year after five freaking days. So it wasn't the Marines. It's just their CEO and their first heart, they freaking hated my guts.

So I just, you know, I mean, I just, I go by their company and say, hey, Buck Blaster, Bobo, you bunch of homos and all that stuff. I just talk shit to 180 Marines as I'm walking by and COV, whatever. Tyler, the CO and first sergeant were like a match made in hell. But the CO stopped the first sergeant and went going right up his ass. Yeah, I know that's high too.

Those, those, that's the way. Sir Major, do you remember that when they hiked, now Tyler, most units when you hike in the Marine Corps, like, you're, part of it is swinging your arms. So it's like, you're holding your, you hold your M16 or, or something. They made the Marines hike like this. It's a cool carry. It's a cool carry. Hey, hey. It was so ridiculous. The other women in Kuwait, those women could not even go to the head before we entered the invasion.

They couldn't even go make a head call, go to the bathroom without a two-man team, and they had to go out. They had to wear their gear, and they had to act like they were patrolling to the head and back, always. Like the CO would stand there, go take a crap, and the first sergeant was staying out there holding on to his gear. He'd go and put it on him, and then he'd short-term and hold his gear. It's just, yeah.

No. You know, I've had an unconfirmed report, Sergeant Major, about that former CO that was, may or may have not been a regimental commander in the reserves, for the reserves, for a reserve unit. A person I may or may have not known that I worked with may have been a reserve battalion commander. Now, the regimental commander's full-time active duty for... 23rd or 25th Marines, 24th Marines, they downsized it. So that's it.

So that's an active duty colonel. The reserve battalion commanders are reservist. It's a commitment job, but you're working your civilian job. Tyler, I'm not sure if you know, but when you're in the reserves, your civilian job is the one that's paying your mortgage, not the Marine Corps. Some guys, and Sergeant Major knows this because he was on the INI staff, so he understood. But Like staff, staffing officers, you know, you're going to work more.

That's a given, but it's also understandable. Like you'd be like, Hey, sir, a Sergeant major, I'll get this to you. Maybe tonight or tomorrow I'm at work right now. Or like I'm working a case and be like, okay, right. I'll take care of it. This regimental commander may have made may or may have not at battalion commander calls on Tuesday at zero nine. And if you couldn't attend that, he would relieve you that he would receive

you of the command. So now some guys like, you know, like I was a cop and it never had reserve battalion command. If I had to do that, I probably could have worked something out with my leadership at the PD. So other guys were firefighters and stuff like that. But some people are like, well, like, you know, that like, well, I was, you know, I'm an FBI agent. I work in a skit or so-and-so and stuff like that.

This guy didn't care. Like he, he didn't get it. So that, that's the type of dude he was. Well, he hated me because when I came from SOTG, started training Animal Company, and then Charlie Company, and then Weapons Company, and he didn't like the fact that I wasn't teaching conventional warfare stuff.

And you talked about yesterday, we talked about being a tactical graffiti, how Animal Company, we came up with the coding of putting on not just the blood types, but we had codes for our alpha rosters. So you could tell who somebody was that was injured or whatever without telling who they were. Like me, I was Hotel 3, which was headquarters number three person. But my call sign was Animal 8. You might know that. All the first ones were 8s.

But Tyler, where were we on the leadership thing? Were we still there? No, we're good. No, we're good on leadership and I appreciate it. Okay. That was, that was excellent. Again, it's, it's one of those things. It's like, how do you explain that? I don't know that there's just a direct answer. It's kind of examples, stories type of a deal. The other part. So moving into train. So you went from not just military, but you went and you actually started training law enforcement,

SWAT, whatever it was. Let's talk about that transition. How did you get into training those units? And then we'll, we'll get into more of what that looked like for you. All right. Good question. So right out of Scout Sniper School, I was actually lucky enough to, and I wasn't a trainer, I just happened to be there. The Honolulu SWAT team asked our state platoon snipers to teach them, we were asked by SWAT out of Honolulu to train them urban high.

So it was my first experience working with law enforcement. So that was in 1986. And then in 88, or no, 89 and 90, I was a drone instructor and I trained the special operations or they call them SRT, special reaction team SWAT guys on the base at Parris Island. And I also trained the county sheriff's department in sniping. And then I went back to Hawaii and we worked with the SWAT guys again. But we also worked with the FBI SWAT team. They have a regional SWAT team there.

So for the next three years, whenever I was in Hawaii, I worked with their SWAT guys, trained them in rural operations, some urban operations, and I got to actually do things with them. It was a great experience. They were outstanding. I think a third of their team were like former Marines too. There are a lot of Marines in the FBI. A lot. So after that, I went to SOTG, and when I was at SOTG, we would go to Guam.

Every six months, we went to Guam, and we would do our training in rural and urban operations environment. Anyway, we would go to Guam. Our guys would go over, and I would go over my RNS and urban snipers. We would go into Guam for two weeks before the MU got there, and we would train their SWAT snipers. So we would have our FBI agent will be with us. We always had one FBI agent. He'd be with us. We'd run a training. He'd sign a certification and they'd move

on. And then immediately we'd come in and we'd break shit and get protected by the cops. And then we'd leave. And six months later, we'd come in and do it again. So I had a lot of training with the cops during that. Oh my God, I've worked with law enforcement all over the place. All over South Carolina, North Carolina, Hawaii, Kuwait, Malaysia. Were these the foreign law enforcement? Like you were working with their... Yeah, I spent a little bit under two months in Malaysia.

I was with an Army SF unit. I was the only Marine. And we went in and we were training. We had some door kickers and then we had snipers. I was with the snipers. It was five of us. Then we had a bunch of SF door kickers. And we went in and trained their... Okay, so these aren't like normal cops. These aren't street cops. They're like FBI HRT, if you will. So they're a national asset that can fly anywhere in the country and do whatever.

But in this country, they have two main units, and one is, no kidding, they dress like the military, jump out of airplanes, act like the military, everything, and they do counter-terrorist operations, et cetera. And then you have another unit up in Kuala Lumpur up in there that these guys have earrings and long hair and stuff, some of the guys.

But yeah, so we did a lot of working with them and training them, and I worked with them in shooting and teaching them how to do urban sniping type stuff. They were not very good, even with our training. Luckily, I found around the world, most militaries are absolutely freaking terrible. Absolutely terrible. You can find some Brits that are good. You can find some Aussies that are good.

I don't know. There might be some more out there. But for the most part, the militaries I've worked through with around the world are pretty worthless. Good to know, I guess. Anyway, yeah. Good for us if we're fighting them. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. So a lot of people don't understand this in the U.S., that is, because they're used to seeing their local, the law enforcement in the U.S. Is wild because there's city cops, deputies, groupers, federal agencies.

There's like 320, I might be off by a few, federal agents. So federal agents, special agents. But there's also like you have the cops at, you know, casinos that are, they have arrest powers. Disney World has cops, you know. Yeah, here they call them special police.

There you go. in territories they have their own it's like a different thing and they all have their own kind of ways that they operate overseas and i'm somewhat familiar i always ended up working i could never tell the difference between the, like the federal police and the military in a lot of these countries, Vietnam, Thailand. Yeah. In Thailand, if you didn't know there were a cop, you'd swear they were military because their uniforms are, they look like they're military.

Even, even those street cops look just like they're military. Yeah. So how did you, what was that like working with them? And also the, the, the cultural differences. And when I'm, when I'm saying culturally, it's not just the, you know, their country culture, but their law enforcement culture is very different. And let me just give you one story for an example. I was in Japan and in Japan, they only, nobody carries guns.

Only the cops carry guns. And it's like these old school revolvers with like five rounds. That's it. But a lot of them carry martial arts weapons or canes. They're a club. Hell yeah. And they'll smack you with it too. They'll smack the shit out of you. Hell yeah. We were, I was at the Imperial residence or palace. I'm sorry. Emperor's palace. With side note, it's all pink in the inside, like Pepto Bismol.

And they, apparently, you know, when they, when they renovated it, it was like black and white times and it made it, it popped. Anyway, it doesn't matter, but it was one of those odd things. I didn't realize all these sirens go off and you got to understand like Trump was there. So, I mean, that area was on full lockdown. Somebody, some civilian decided to do like a petty theft from like a, I don't know, a 7-Eleven. I mean, just like real minor.

And my counterpart, cause we had to have a liaison for, for translation and all this other stuff. And so we didn't, we didn't fuck something up. I was like, oh my God, it's really big crime, really big crime. And I'm like, oh my God, like it was somebody shot like a bank robbery with like all these cops came out. They ended up just being like a petty retail theft. They, I mean, there was probably 20 cops. They beat the shit out of this guy with these big cane things or whatever.

And it was like a big deal for like, he stole some, some food, like real minor. So what I'm saying is the cultural on the way they enforce the law is different. What was that interaction? and you don't have to give me like a play-by-play at all the countries, but just in general. Oh, I can give it to you. I've worked with the police in territories.

I've worked with them around the world. And I'll tell you right now, our law enforcement in this country is criticized all the time and they deserve some criticism, but let me tell you something. We have the best law enforcement, by far the most justified law enforcement without a doubt in the freaking world. There's no doubt about it. You go out and man, places are, I have seen it with my own eyes, how corrupt the police are.

You get pulled over and you just, you got to buy your way out of a ticket. There's no ticket. You got to, how much money you got in your wallet to get out of it. You know? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of corruption out there. There's no doubt in my mind that we have the number one law, not judicial, but the law enforcement part is without a doubt, in my opinion, the best in the world.

Yeah, there's a difference between law enforcement and the judicial aspect of it because that's a whole other thing. Well, when you put a D or an R after your name, that's not to get into politics. But when you have a D or an R after your name and you're a judge, how can I trust you? Yeah, it should not matter. It should not matter.

If a justice is blind why the hell do i know what what what you are politically it's ridiculous anyway let's get away from that okay but you know what sorry major tyler and i talked about this like especially from i've saw more with the the local when i was the local cop you know i tell people what's the one color the court looks at and that you know they they want to say like the person's white or something i'm like nope green that's what the court cares about it's green if you got money,

you can, you can get out of something. Bottom line. My, my one, just to touch on it and then we'll move on. But early, early on in my career, I was a deputy and you know, I was in court all the time for whatever, ranging misdemeanors to felonies doesn't matter. And the prosecutors would be like, oh man, you know, this is a high power. They would always have this dread over who the defense attorney was. And I used to think in my head, why does it fucking matter?

Like, okay, you have 20 defense attorneys or one defense attorney, a court appointed, or $1,000 an hour. If you have a case, then you have a case. What the fuck does it matter? But I quickly learned that it does matter. And I don't have a good answer for you why, but yeah, money is a problem in that section, unfortunately. But we'll move on from that because that's not the point. I have some strong biases against that.

We talked a little bit yesterday offline, but I'd love to get the story recorded if it's okay with you. Because. Two things. You trained with or trained Secret Service snipers, and then you actually deployed with them. And I want to touch on that story because I'd like to go over that. Yeah. So the G-Summit in 2000, it was President Clinton. He was in Okinawa.

Well, he was in mainland Japan, then he came to Okinawa. But before he came to Okinawa, I was at SOTG, but the MPs, special action team, requested me to come down and get chopped away from them to their command to be their SME, subject matter expert on sniping, counter sniping. So I was part of the special action team. And then your guys came in ahead of time, the lead team, and we did our, am I allowed to say this? Yeah, go ahead. Okay. So we cleared out to that distance, the 1,000 yards.

We did all of our things for a few days there. And then when it came time for me to do my thing, I was up on top of the building. President Clinton was giving a speech down in between his barracks, and I was up on top of the barracks. And I had my sniper rifle with my night vision. But I was telling Tyler, I didn't have any ammunition. I mean, because I was aiming in on the crowd down there. But this handler, I think he was a Marine.

I don't know if I'm allowed to use his name. But anyway, it was hold on to ammo. So I never touched any ammo. But yeah, so he and his daughter were there. And yeah, she wasn't real friendly on my night vision gear. No, it just, for me, it's like... It was getting my eye out. So what we were talking about, and I don't think a lot of people understand this, is that the Secret Service does have counter, again, they call them counter snipers.

And I'm sure there's a technical reason why they do that. But a lot of times they will partner up with military snipers.

It's just it's always fascinated me because it's like these are trained snipers by the military you know u.s got you know bleed you know bleed red red white and blue but they won't they'll hold the ammo especially if you're in another country and they'll only it's like so what he sees something he has to go hey i can i get some bullets i need to shoot this guy it's just a weird, process in my mind but you know again i was not a sniper i was not a counter sniper nothing like that but i

always just thought that whole process i was like what are we doing but here you are you're like i don't know that's how it works so right before i retired i had to give a speech to this this unnamed unit i went down there and then the entire time i was in the building they never let me touch a door even to go into the go in the head go take a piss i had to go in they'd hold the they'd hold the door open for me and stand there and

watch me take a freaking piss i mean they didn't watch me but you know yeah yeah they still in the head with me but i wasn't allowed to go anywhere in that building to touch any. I couldn't touch the computer. They didn't let me touch anything in the entire building. I'm fine with that, though, because I didn't leave no evidence behind. Yeah, seriously. I mean, I was okay with it, but yeah, it was a weird experience for me.

I went there and gave a speech there the year after, and the funny thing is I went through the same things, but I forgot to take my cell phone out when I was supposed to, so I'm giving a class, and my phone started ringing, and everyone's like, it's their minds, because nobody says they have their cell phone in there, and their guest speaker, the keynote speaker, has got a freaking cell phone in his pocket. Anyway, I left.

What were some of the differences? Because we were talking a little bit as well. You're like, you always got to work with and train with what you would call the top 10% instead of the bottom 10% and law enforcement side anyway, because these are special operations. SWAT guys, they are highly motivated and highly trained. But even within that, what differences did you notice from somebody who has a strict law enforcement background as opposed to a military background when

it comes to what you were training? You mean for, like, if I'm training law enforcement, you're saying as a sniper? Yeah, as opposed to, you know, a grunt in the Marines. So, I mean, if I was training, listen, when it comes to, like, tactics, I didn't just train snipers. I trained them in tactics also. But it didn't matter if I was training airline Marines, grunt Marines, or law enforcement. I taught all of them IBT, initiative-based tactics.

And here's how I'll describe it. is if i had a big bucket of water and there's a building you know with rooms and i dump that bucket of water that's and the way that flows through the building is how i want you to flow through the building you know what i'm saying it just wants to flow through it like water and whoever's in front is in charge and i need it as easy as possible you know people be like oh you got to go the long wall the short wall left or right whatever listen

if i go right guess which way you're going left it's not that hard you know so don't get too wrapped up on it you You know, if you get too wrapped around, like when I first started doing CQB, we did four-man teams. You had a one-man, a two-man, a three-man, and a four-man. That's a terrible concept.

What happens is the one man goes down, you know? But anyway, you know, so right now, to tell you, when I was training law enforcement or military or the air wing or the grunts, I trained everybody the exact same way. With a sniper rifle, with a handgun, with tactics, taught everyone the same way. Did you see any difference in mentality or, well, yeah, two different things, mentality and or skill set? The best sniper I've ever seen in my life was never

spent a day in the military. He was an FBI sniper. This is why he was the best sniper ever, though. He was a SWAT sniper, and he kept the sniper rifle on his trunk. And he may even listen to this, see how important he is. But anyway, every time he drove, he was on Honolulu. And every time he drove by the range, they had a range there. It was a police range, but everybody could use it. I think that's how it was. But anyway, so he would just stop by there.

He'd pull out his gun. that, you know, that cold bore shot, log it in, take a couple more shots and leave. He'd take three to 10 shots and leave. And every time he was in the area, he stopped by there. This dude had data from every kind of weather and wind condition and wherever you could imagine for, for years of it. Yeah. He was the best cold bore shooter I've ever seen in my life. Dedicated to his craft. Because he had so much data. He had so much data.

So if you don't, I don't know if you're, are you familiar with the cold bore shot? I am, but do you mind explaining it? A lot of people are not. Okay, so I'm going to try to make it really simple. When I'm shooting my gun and it gets hotter and hotter... It has a tendency to, it's going to make them both rise higher and higher, right?

Hotter, hotter, whatever. So that cold bore shot, that shot you're going to take when you go into that swatch situation or whatever, that first shot you take, that barrel is going to be totally cold. So that's your cold bore shot. But it's not just how cold it is, it's how clean it is. So that's why after you shoot, you want to clean your weapon to the same amount of cleanliness.

Like I believe that people over clean their weapons. You don't have to clean your weapon until the Q-tip comes out totally white or whatever. You can over clean weapons. The fact is, and some people might lose their minds when they hear me say this, but a slightly carbonated weapon is a little bit tighter than a totally cleaned up weapon. I clean all my weapons. I clean them good, but I don't over clean them. Yeah. No, I definitely agree with that. You got to clean the weapons.

Look at the M16. It's designed to fire with carbon in it. It's designed to, you know, you want to keep the sand out of it. If you have carbon in it, it's still going to fire and stop. It's interesting you say that because some of our firearms instructors over the years, there was one in Maine State Police. There was a little bit of a tit for tat. There was two firearms instructors and one was much like what you're saying. I think he was prior military and they were right in front of us.

They were kind of going back and forth a little bit because the other firearms instructor, he had like the the cleaning tank or whatever where he would strip it all down put it in do the sonic he wanted it to be as spotless uh you know like what you said you know white glove test kind of a thing and that was the first time that i'd ever heard a high level conversation between two firearms instructors talking about you could over clean it's whatever too much

to your point so it's interesting that you're on you're on the one side that is okay and i can't when i was in a drill field was the biggest thing is because the recruits, they couldn't turn in their weapons until it was spotlessly clean, even with a Q-tip.

They'd send them back. So what happens? You've got these idiot drill instructors, always, always non-grunt, some freaking pogue that freaking has got to go out there and take a damn drill and put a rifle rod in it and take a power drill and drill out the bore. What are you doing to that weapon? You're destroying it, playing in weapons. You're destroying a weapon. Or the drill instructor that put an oven cleaner on M16s. Do you know what all the cleaners does? The bluing? Yeah, it kills.

The bluing will come back. So now you got a bunch of M16s that are silver. There's no bluing on them. Let me tell you something. That's how you get court-martialed. It's so stupid. But yeah, in the same way in the grunts, going to the armory, oh, no, this isn't clean enough. Man, shut the hell up. Take the damn weapon, you know? Because they got one Q-tip in there. Shut the hell up. That's hilarious.

When I was a company, I'd go hanging out the armory. My armors knew if they started playing their freaking games at that window, I'd freaking pull them through the window. I don't like that shit. Yeah, because you're messing with Marines. I'm sure the colonel's probably heard of it or seen it where they do that to enlisted Marines, keep sending them back to, uh, y'all go clean us some more.

Shut the hell up. I remember like the basic school infantry officers course, then in the fleet and, you know, and then, and the reserves were a little bit better because guys were like, okay, it's, it's Sunday, it's 1500, you know, we want to try and get out of here by 1800. Don't keep guys like these weapons are clean. Like, you know, again, like you said, sorry, major, you had guys that were like, you know, that were cops, FBI agents, but I had guys that were lawyers and finance

guys that, and they all had did active duty time. They're like. They're like the sergeant who was a reservist, nothing on him, but they're like at the armor. They're like, dude, we, we've been around the block. We know how to do this. You, they don't need to be spotless, you know? And we're shooting them again next week. Or we were going to CACS for the summer or, you know, for 18. No, for sure. So Dave, I got two more questions. I want to be respectful of time.

It's crazy. I looked up and we've already been talking for over an hour, but I have two more questions. And then if there's anything we want to wrap up, you mentioned combat psychology. That's the first time I've ever heard of that term. I did go Google it after we talked. Can you talk, can you expand on that and what that is? Absolutely. I wrote an entire book on combat psychology, okay? It's an unedited book out there. I've got, you know, tons of it.

Probably, okay, combat psychology is just psychology, but for combat. But my big thing is you hear about post-traumatic stress. You hear about it all the time. Post-traumatic stress disorder. I'm not sure the disorder is always supposed to be there, but post-traumatic stress. but people don't talk about the post-traumatic growth.

And my point here would be that I would say although there's that post-traumatic stress for a lot of warriors post-combat, that there's more post-traumatic growth by far than there is stress. In other words, after the stresses of combat, guess what? Everything else becomes easier. And also it's less stressful. You get that growth from that stress, from all those stresses of combat, and you grow and you become a better person and whatever.

So I've written entire papers just about that. I have published papers in a preceding magazine, a Leatherneck magazine, and there's another, what's the other Marine Corps magazine? I forget what it is. Is that? There's that, yes. So I have combat psychology articles published in all those magazines, talking about post-traumatic growth, et cetera.

And well, anything else on that? Well, I just want to elaborate on that because I, so I talked to my psychiatrist, we actually did an episode as well and, It was the stigma of trauma itself, right? Because you hear a trauma, it's like nobody wants to hear about your fucking trauma or everybody. It's just like this trauma is just this negative thing that just this is why I can't do this. And it's hard to generalize trauma for somebody.

It's also hard to really define it because what's traumatic to you might not be that big a deal to me, right? And her point was, and this is where I was, it triggered in my mind what you were talking about will combat a psychology and the concept of post-traumatic growth is that psychiatry as a field has not done a good job in general. This is generalizations on saying, look, you're a human being.

We're all going to face trauma. And some degrees there's horrific trauma that like, you know, it's unimaginable to you. There's also, you know, just depends on how you grow up, whatever. Right. Instead of just saying, you know, not all trauma is bad, right? You just need to learn how to deal with the trauma and then grow from it. And so what you're talking about is, and I, and I'm, I'm fascinated with it, but you know, you go through this combat, you go through this traumatic event,

whether it's good or bad or whatever it is. Right. Like Colonel Max says, he, you know, he'd never lost a guy when he was in combat. That's a, that's a good thing, but he still saw combat. Right.

But when you come back, instead of being like, Oh, I have this, you know, I was in combat and just kind of like withering away or whatever it's like no now shit's fucking easy like compared to what i just went through i could do anything kind of you know that mentality that mindset and so turning that around max when i count on that i'm sorry i didn't want to speak for you but just kind of turning that that concept around on that

not all trauma is bad trauma max yeah i remember you wrote that you wrote about that like a while ago the ptsd and talking about the disorder i mean you wrote that like like because i remember reading it like i think when You wrote it on Facebook one time and I read it like 10 years ago. I used, I used it where like, and I said, I said a guy, a buddy of mine, I know, like he said, you may have post-traumatic stress, but it's not a disorder.

It's like, like, like, and I, because I use what you said and I'm like, yeah, like, it's like, it shapes you, but it's just because you have, it doesn't mean you're broken, you know, because we've gotten in, in society. It's like, where if you have PTSD, oh, you're broken. Don't let them, anybody, like put them in a room and put them with meds, but it's not. And it's like, and that's what is not talked about a lot is the growth that comes from what happens.

Yeah. Nobody talks about it that way. Yeah. So let me tell you, I'll tell you a quick one. Okay. It was a Sunday afternoon. I was in Savannah, Georgia on INI duty. I was the first sergeant. And Tyler, it's the book I emailed you today. when I emailed to you. I had that book there and my college professor knew that I was a Marine and he knew I knew psychology stuff like that. And anyway, he called me on a Sunday and he says, hey, a friend from church

has a son who just came back from combat. He's in an army and he's all messed up in the head. Would you mind talking to him? I'm like, well, I don't know what I can do for him, but yeah. So I went into work. I went into Hunter Army Airfield. He was at Fort Stewart. So he met me over there about an hour later. So I'm a Marine First Sergeant. I'm in my uniform. And he's a soldier in his uniform. And he comes in and he doesn't want to talk. So I don't know what the hell's wrong with him.

But after we talked for a little bit, he said, Carballa. And I said, Carballa? I says, I've been to Carballa. I says, you know the lake? He says, yeah, I was up on the lake. He says, yeah, we did this up there and all that. So that kind of got him going. And then we talked for a little bit. And then finally, I looked at him and I go, dude, what is the issue? Is there one thing, three things, whatever? Is there one main thing? And he goes, you know what, First Sergeant, there is.

And I said, okay, well, lay it on me. He says, one night, and you're going to know the story as I'm telling you, believe me. He said, one day, we were running a vehicle control point, and a bus came down, and they had it in Arabic. The sign said, you know, slow down and stop, but it didn't slow down and it didn't stop.

They fired running shots with a machine gun. it kept coming and they unloaded on it and guess who's in the who's in the bus women and children right okay so yeah so they killed a bunch of women and children and he's looking at me he goes we murdered those people that day and i said i said well did you know who was in the bus and he said well no i says then how the hell could you murder them i says did they did they proceed past the sign that says slow down,

Did he say the last one that said stop? Yes. Did they keep going after you gave him the warning shots? Yes. Then you know what? It happens. It's combat. And you know something clicked in his head right that minute. No one had ever told him he wasn't a murderer. I couldn't believe it. All the army psychologists. He'd been seeing people for months. No one ever told him he wasn't a murderer. Did they wonder? I wonder this date. Did they ever ask him what the hell was

wrong with him? I don't think they ever asked him. You know, here's this dumb ass first sergeant on a freaking Sunday afternoon. Ask a simple question and fix this kid. And all these psychologists and psychiatrists couldn't do their thing. So what I would do with a Marine, if I had a Marine, I thought had a problem psychologically, what I would do is because, you know, if they go to psychologists, a psychologist can't come to me and tell me. I don't know if you knew that, Tyler. He can't.

But so what I do is I take them to the psychologist and I say, hey, psychologist, hey, here's the deal. I think this is going on. Tell me if I'm right. So now he's obligated to tell me. So I put myself into the situation. You follow what I'm saying? Where if I just send them to a psychologist, psychologist will not tell me anything.

Same thing with medical. When I was a company gunner for a sergeant or even a sergeant major, I'd take them to medical and I'd say, hey doc, I think this is what's going on. Tell me what it is. And they would tell me. But if you just send them to medical, they can't tell you because of HIPAA laws and all that shit. Let me tell you, HIPAA law makes sense, but it also is a crutch. People use HIPAA all the time to not do their damn job or, or not help all the time.

Like in the Marine Corps, HIPAA will say that the doctors can't tell you what medication your Marine is on, but then you're in trouble because you let your Marine operate on a live fire range on narcotics because you didn't know he's on them. You know what I'm saying? So what the hell, you know, that you just have to hope that your Marines are, you know, well enough to tell you what they got going on. Yeah, for sure. I'm sure the same thing happens in law enforcement, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Tyler. Yes, it does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we've done a few episodes on that and talking about it. Last question, last question. And I kind of, I think I already know the answer, but I just, I'd like to hear it from your perspective.

You hear a lot of old heads that have didn't, you know, this is the way we did it for 30 years. Why fix it if it's not broken? But what is your opinion? And I guess overall thoughts on the advancements that have been going on and not, you know, gear, nutrition, and like the push on overall health, not just mental health, but, you know, telling Marines to, you know, you got to eat right. You got to drink a lot of water, giving them breathable gear, whatever it is, take care of their feet.

You know, all this stuff that's going on, there's a lot of money put into it. I grew up with it. So, you know, they're like, ah, they're weakening and softening the military. They're softening. What can be ridiculous? Because I think I'm kind of telling you how I feel already. Because I'm like, no, dude, you got to give them the best that they can to go do their job. But you get this old school mentality like, ah, you're softening them and whatever.

It's all bullshit. I heard when you and the colonel were talking in your interview, I was listening to it. And the colonel came up and he says, let me tell you about this news generation.

And I was like, fucking A, man. Damn right. because let me tell you and i i think i sent you that did i send you an email with that you did the stuff i had on it yeah so yeah kids it's called kids these days i wrote this story called kids these days and i was talking about the kids i took into combat the 17 18 year olds yeah i did have a 17 year old believe it or not he was in a rifle company but he had to stay in headquarters the day he turned 18 because he couldn't be in direct combat

till he's 18 no kidding yeah but Anyway, so I forgot where I was at. I went off on a tangent there. I forgot where the hell I was. Because these kids are the thing. Yeah, okay, kids these days. So yeah, these kids are awesome. So then I looked it up, and guess what? People have been bitching about kids these days for the last couple thousand years. I mean, I showed them evidence of these philosophers that everyone knows that were saying kids these days, they speak out of turn.

They don't stand up when they're elders walking, et cetera. I remember watching the show World War II in Color. I don't remember how long ago, within the last 15 years. And I think it's before Guadalcanal. Maybe it was either Guadalcanal or Tarawa. And there's a, I think it was Guadalcanal because it was in the beginning. And there's a reporter there and he's in his thirties at the time.

And he's like, I don't know if these, these, these kids, these Marines nowadays are going to be able to, I don't think they're going to be able to win this war and stuff like that. And I'm like cracking up. Like they did that because they show like, you know, the greatest generation and you know look what these look what they did and i'm so happy you say that star major like yeah i mean like you said there's the 10 everywhere but just because that like.

Like, like I said, we had kids that like, they, they like that. I'm like, why'd you come? Like 9-11 happened. I joined up, you know, I like, I went to Afghanistan in 11 after, after I was off duty, felt guilty. I'm like, I didn't go. I remember one of the guys I was a lieutenant with, I think he was retiring as a major. He's like, Mac, you already been there. You done that. You don't have to. I'm like, I'm like, I feel guilty because there's still guys there doing it.

And, and, and I, and, and I think that's a generational thing.

Kids that were like 24 25 and like they're like i got out and you know this kicked off and i felt guilty i needed to come back and do it and that's what it is absolutely yeah yeah yeah so i i tell you i want to tell you one i'll tell you one story about in uh baghdad and it was uh corporal fernandez and i think he was 19 years old at the time so this corporal this 19 year old kid is leading this is a patrol through Baghdad, Iraq, right after the invasion.

You know, it's right after the invasion, we've kind of secured the area. But Corporal Fernandez leads this patrol that had me as his first sergeant. His company gunny was on it, the gunny from the tanks and the gunny from tracks and a bunch of staff and COs, surgeons, et cetera, and all these tracks and all these vehicles.

But the corporal was in charge and the corporal led that patrol and everyone did what that corporal told them to do until we got to this one neighborhood where the fat guy in the neighborhood okay in Iraq when he wanted to know who's in charge just look for the fat dude find the one fat dude and he knows what's going on so anyway the fat dude in that neighborhood didn't want to listen to a 19 year old kid so I went over there and told him exactly what corporal Fernandez had just told him.

Told him to go away. Anyway, but my point is, kids these days, that 19-year-old kid took four tanks, eight Amtrakts, et cetera, through Baghdad, and he was in charge, and he stayed in charge, and he led that patrol like a professional. That's kids these days. That's my comparison. When I was in Afghanistan at 11 and 12 in Sangin, and I was supporting the 1-5 and 3-7 as a civil affairs guy. And I remember three, seven got there and I'd have to go down to this OP nine, five, 17 Marines.

Corporal was in charge of it. That's it. It was a corporal 17 Marine. I went to pretty much almost every fob within that battalion's AO. And I loved going down to OP nine, five because it was the best run fob there. I remember I, and I, I'm, you know, I'm not saying any names or anything, but I said, Hey, I remember going up to leadership won't say, but I'm like, Hey, are you guys putting in corporal so-and-so for an award? They're like, yeah. I'm like, what do you like?

They're like, yeah. I'm like, listen, I've been down there a lot of times. And I was a captain at the time. And I go, listen, man, that, that is, that is a one professional unit. Like, I mean, with a corporal, like, you know, I mean, they were all kids and I'm like, I, I highly, highly recommend the Navy comm for him. And they're like, well, I don't know. He's only a corporal. I'm like, come on, bro. Don't go with that.

The award he gets and Saruman, you and I could do a podcast about how the award system is we sure could you wouldn't want to hear it though you wouldn't want to hear my opinion on awards I'll tell you one last one more awards one I got to the Pentagon late 03-04 I'm walking around, there's a Lance Corporal with a comma and I'm like. Saruman, you know I talked to everybody But I was like, I learned from guys like you, Marines, like Marines, talk to him, get to know him.

And I go to him talking to him one day and I'm like, Hey, I'm not, I go, I literally said this. I go, I'm not trying to be a dick, man, but like, how is the Lance Corporal? Do you have a Navy commie? He goes, I'm 11. I go, why don't you have a Navy Marine Corps medal? He goes, and he got, I remember he goes on the Lance Corporal. And I go, that's fucked up.

You, you rated Navy because there, he pulled people out, but staffing, those and all for, they all got their navy and marine corps medals that's bullshit that who lands because he was also like he wasn't a bad kid but you know he was he was always teetering on a height and weight and everything like that but like give the kid his due award you know yeah so so yes that's my soapbox for the day i love it i love it dave i appreciate it

i'm calling you dave because you told me i could so yeah yeah absolutely sir. Yeah, it'll take me a few more years before I'm still going to. I can't. I can't. I can't. No, I love it. I really appreciate your time. I will definitely have to get you on for another one. But I just wanted to I wanted to capture as much of this as I could. And I'm very appreciative and I'm thankful for the book. Great. I'll let you know when I get it and I'll be right on it. So thank you so much.

And we'll talk when you get your knee replaced. Absolutely. Yeah, I know. Get a cryosleeve. Highly recommended. Highly recommended. Colonel Mack, anything? We good? No, that's it. As always, Sar Major, it is a fucking joy talking to you either. I'm so happy I get to talk to you like voice, but like messaging. And that's why I comment like Tyler, I comment a lot on his shit.

He writes a lot of stuff on Facebook and it's like, and I'm always like, I'm giving him props and because, and it's not blowing smoke up his ass because he can definitely crawl into my window and beat the shit out of me. But it's like, I fucking wasn't, I didn't serve with him a super long time. Like but i learned i can write fucking volumes what i learned from him and how to be a marine how to be a leader hands down thank you sir major it's my honor sir thank you thank you. Music.