The Intricate Machine: How the Criminal Justice System Truly Functions

All right mo today we're going to talk about the criminal justice machine and i don't think i've ever seen it broken down the way we have it broken down with the cops of course and correction just kind of how they all work i think a lot of times when people read books or watch tv or whatever it It's usually one part or the other.

You got the, you know, NCIS, they're talking about how the cops go in and do all this shit. Or I've seen shows where they talk about, you know, the attorneys, the prosecutor in defense. And there's a lot of attorney shows. And then you've got the other one, like 60 Days In, where they talk about just the correction portion. But kind of bringing it all in and how they all interface with each other as

the actual criminal justice system. I like that we have it phrased as the machine because that's a very accurate way to describe it. So why do we call it a machine mode? I'll tell you. So a machine is basically something that works together through power and has several parts. Each part has a definite function, and together they perform a particular task. That is exactly what the criminal justice system is. It is incredibly intricate.

There's a lot of different working parts. that are interlocking and in order for one cog to move, others have to be turning essentially because in order for it to work effectively, one part has to be turning to turn the next part, which turns the next part. And then they interlock with each other as they start to turn. The thing is with the criminal justice system, if something's not working right, it can create a lot of havoc.

And every change within that system, every decision within that system changes the pace at which one cog turns, which changes how this particular piece works. And that popped into my head because I'm thinking, I remember being on the road and thinking there was a new ruling that came down through the court system about a particular case or what happened. And so now as a result of that ruling, it changed everything about how we do things.

So an example, something that's been going on more recently is marijuana has been on the ballot all over the country about making it legal. Well, when I came into law enforcement, it was nothing for us to, if we, you know, pulled somebody over and detected the odor of marijuana, it gave us access to search their vehicle.

If we found what we call fake, just a little bit of marijuana leaves around, that was done. You could easily be arrested for that. If we found drug paraphernalia that was surrounded by marijuana, you got arrested for it. But now, since that one, the court decision, which is the court side of the house, has been reevaluating how we're looking at drugs, how we're looking at marijuana specifically, that has changed quite a bit how law enforcement can operate.

It changed not just us making arrests for marijuana, but it's changed us being able to, what's the latitude? We have to question now, if I pull somebody over and I detect the odor of marijuana, well, they may have a marijuana card. So do I truly, do I have access to their vehicle? Well, yeah, federal law still says we do. But your particular state may look at those cases, your local court system may

look at those cases a little bit differently. Because now if you have somebody who has a marijuana car, can they have a marijuana smell in their car? They're not supposed to smoke while they're driving because that's considered a DUI. But what if they were sitting in their vehicle smoking? So there's all these different pieces now that affect the decision making process on so many different levels. So to me, the best way to explain it was this is a machine that works together.

Yeah. And, you know, we're the legislative branch as well. But it's hard to a lot of people may not know, but because the way everything's broken up is you have the federal courts, the federal legislation, executive branch, but each state has one as well. So you do see things like what you're talking about. Well, federally, it's still legal, but now states and things like that are making it legal.

And i'm trying to i'm also kind of like touching on the court side because i remember learning about it because this was all before my time but like when marijuana was still a big deal you know cops are out here trying to figure out the best ways to find the big growers you know to to figure out how to how to address it and i remember they were saying like they would use helicopters and like infrared imaging you could like almost see through the walls you could see

heat signatures of people walking through because you were trying to see the heat signature from all the power being used to power to heat the marijuana grill and they were using that as, enough to get you know enough evidence to get warrants and search warrants and stuff like that and the court sat back and they go i think that feels like a violation of people's privacy you can't be like using technology to scan through their walls and shit and so this is kind of like,

it's kind of like this back and forth thing and I think I could be wrong but typically cops are always trying to like push the envelope, to go after the bad guys and the court sometimes have to rent it in or sometimes legislatively they rent it in but even if you go down on a smaller scale like we talked about like in New York. With the individual that died from selling Lucy's cigarettes. That was an ordinance. That's not, you know, Florida doesn't have that law,

and it's not really a law. It's more like a city ordinance. So even within a state, you can have the state law, county, and then city, and they'll have ordinances where cops have to go then enforce these things, even if they disagree with it.

And I think it's a good point because people get so angry at cops, and it's like if you're mad because I'm arresting you for this, then you need to change the legislation.

Right so that's what i mean uh there's there's it's kind of like it kind of grinds against each other sometimes i think yeah yeah and that's that's a great point because they absolutely do because of we have such overlapping jurisdictions too people don't realize that a lot of times that the county cops within the county you might have city cops within that city you can have federal cops also operating within that area which are under a different set of laws and circumstances instances.

I know, you know, when we, when I worked undercover, for instance, we would a lot of times be in the city doing things. We'd be in the county doing things and it, we would have to keep up with what's the city ordinance, what's the county ordinance. And as county officer, do we enforce our county ordinance? We could because the city's within the county. So there, there's, there's a lot of times where it does it, like it grinds against each other based on what's going on. Yeah.

Yeah. And again, I mean, cops being the front line, people don't understand that the cops kind of feed the courts. They also feed the jails because a lot of times you'll get arrested and you'll be waiting in jail before you go to court. And then the court will sentence, which then feeds the correction side as well, whether it's county jail or state or federal, depending on the charges of the sentencing.

And if any of those pieces are broken, you start getting these backlogs or you're having people sit in jail for longer and longer periods of time because the courts are backlogged or whatever the situation might be. Or if you have the reverse and you have no cops and you have crime that's just rampant, well, now the legislation, which is overseen by the executive branch, is like, hey, what are y'all doing to address all this crime? It's like we don't have cops. They can't go make the arrest.

So it definitely all has to work. You know, the more I'm reading this, thinking about it, it's very intricate the way it works, but it's also very abrasive sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's an important thing that I didn't think about. You know, we it is abrasive at times. And there's a lot of blame that goes around. Things aren't going right. Oh, it's not us. It's the cops. It's not the cops. It's the court system. So it's very abrasive, like you said.

So I have a question for you because of your experience. One of the things that popped in my head when I was talking about this is within the system, the criminal justice system, there's also these varying levels. That's why I say it's such an intricate puzzle that's being put together. We deal with the local. We deal with the state. And I personally dealt with some federal stuff also when I was working undercover. But then there's the other side of the house with the federal law enforcement.

You guys travel a lot of times outside of the country doing things. How does it balance with running concurrent with international laws and things of that and international court systems and what happens? Well, what I will speak on the federal international side that the wheel of justice on that moves incredibly slowly. And I think it does cause a lot of frustration. And I'll just speak on a couple of things. The.

We have agreements with certain countries that basically have agreed to play nice with the U.S. Regarding their citizens. A lot of that has to do with financial crimes and scams and stuff.

And I've talked about it a few times on the podcast, but not always to pick on Nigeria because there's other countries, Russia, China, certain Eastern European countries and stuff that are – it is a business.

It's people like work ID pass fires, they scan into a building, they go sit at a cubicle, and then their job is to just go after United States citizens and scan them for their money, whether it's lottery scams, romance scams, or straight up just hacking into their accounts and trying to steal all their money. They work like eight, nine hours, 10 hours, they get paid a salary, and then they go home. I mean, it's like a job. It's crazy. That's wild.

Yes. So, but with all that, so let's say you're working a case, somebody has been scammed with their money, and then you're like, all right, hey, we found this person in another country. You have to reach out to them. This is where the courts and politics and the administration and all that kind of gets involved. You have to have an MOU. You have to reach out to their embassy.

They reach out to their basically federal side, their government side, and it trickles down and they say, yes, okay, you can come here and arrest this person. And then you have to, so then you have to fly over there. You have to put this whole thing together. This takes months, by the way. This is not like a couple of phone calls. This is months, sometimes years to get all this done. Then you go out and arrest the person. Well, that individual has rights as the citizen of that country.

So you have to go through the court system there. They then get extradited. So then the U.S. has to pay for that person and everybody transporting them to come back to the U.S. And then they're sitting in jail where now they are under U.S. Laws. and then go through the course. So these things can take years. So I've had cases where, you know, I have victims that were taken for hundreds of thousands and a couple of cases, a couple of million.

And they're like calling me every couple of months like, hey, where are we at? I'm like, yo, it doesn't work that way at all. This might be six years from now. They're like, oh, my God. So people need to understand the difference when you're dealing with something that's federal. People either get excited or scared or whatever. It's like it does not move fast. It just doesn't. Now, I'm talking about financial crisis like terrorists and stuff like that, that you see the full weight of the U.S.

Government come down to bear because that usually moves pretty quickly. But even then, like the Boston bomber, I think that took a year or two to close out.

I mean, to work all the way through the system, even though they apprehended the guy, it still took a long time to go through the court system because it is not designed, the federal government is not designed to work that way. Yeah, it's funny. There was a story I was listening to that popped in my head when you said about, you know, even terrorists, the full weight of the world, like the United States comes down on.

But I was listening or reading a story about a some of the people who were involved in the 9-11. You know, that was that you would think those people have been addressed and dealt with years later. They still haven't. A lot of them at the time when this was it was actually a podcast. I think about it when it was recorded. They were still several of them sitting in Guantanamo Bay. Yeah. Just waiting. Yeah. Yeah. Waiting to be brought to trial.

And I'll say this as well. I don't know if I ever dealt with it on the local side, but on the federal side, so let's say you have a foreign national coming over to the U.S. committing crimes and you arrest them. They're still under U.S. jurisdiction, but they are entitled to call their consulate and get legal counseling from their country as well. So it's a whole system in place for that. The other thing I will say is, you know, a lot of people from the U.S.

Will travel overseas and they're used to the laws of the United States. And they think, oh, I can do this. I can do that. I can do whatever I want. Well, yeah, just because weed is legal in California doesn't mean you can go over to China and start smoking weed or, you know, Japan or South Korea because they will fuck you up.

And you're under you're under their laws. And then I'm reading the news and I'm seeing like in Scotland and the United Kingdom, people are getting arrested for tweeting what they call hate speech. If we did that in the United States, we'd have we'd have 50 million people in prison. Like, are you fucking kidding me? It would be a fucking nightmare, you know, and it's wild shit.

And just because you're a law enforcement officer or even a Fed, you go to some countries, you're not allowed to carry a firearm. You can't even carry a fucking pocket knife And if you get caught you will go to prison Oh yeah Let me tell you one story You'll laugh about this I don't know if I've shared it on this This was a secret service one I was not involved It's a funny story Even though it could have gone really bad. So I'll leave it kind of vague, but I'll get to the point of the story.

So counter surveillance agents, Secret Service, they typically dress down. They try to blend in with the environment they're in. It was always very difficult for me, depending on where I was. They were in the Middle East. I think they were in Saudi Arabia. They were in the Middle East. They were like, oh, we want to dress like the local. So we're going to wear the turban and the robes and all that stuff.

So they just went to a store and just bought some turbans and some rubs and were rocking and wearing them around. Next thing they know, the secret police comes out, matches them up, handcuffs them, throws them in the back of a cop car. Language barrier. They're sitting in jail, I think for at least 24, maybe 48 hours before a translator came. Why did they get arrested? Why did they get arrested? They were wearing the royal colors.

So these guys were walking around Like they were part of the royal family Trying to blend in, Now it all worked out And they were quickly released And kind of admonished And it's now a laughing joke You know in the agency But I'm like imagine you just get snatched The fuck up because you're dressing like Donald Trump Bro, Walking around Like you're a Trump bro So that's the shit you gotta think about when you travel Wow, that is insane.

They sat in a Middle Eastern jail for, I believe it was two days, and if I'm exaggerating, I'm sure I'll get corrected at some point, but it was long enough that they were sweating like, holy shit, we're going to fucking die in here. We're going to die. Yeah, the translator came. Listen, they weren't laughing until they got out, and I think they were laughing until they got back to the U.S. They were like, oh, my God, we could have fucking been in prison for wearing the wrong...

Talking about some gang shit wearing the wrong colors.

That is great but i mean like i will say though and this kind of takes us down a tangent it's not new that we there's a reason why the saying when in rome do as the romans do we as americans get cocky sometimes and thinks that we carry our laws and our and our rules with us and we don't in those instances. But I remember back when I was a kid, there was a, I remember distinctly, there was a kid, he was, I don't know, at the time, he was probably anywhere

between 15 and 17. He wasn't an adult. I know that. And he went somewhere in an Asian country, Thailand, something like that. And he was out being an idiot and spray painting or tagging or doing something. To vandalize something in their city and they arrested him. They held him for a while and then they subsequently decided they were going to cane him. And I remember it was a big story because his family was like, the U.S. Needs to intervene. You can't let them cane him. We don't do that here.

You're right. We don't cane people here. But guess what? In this country, they do. So if you don't do, when in Rome, do as the Romans do if you don't want to get caned.

Yeah know the laws and i try to tell people that all the time because it i mean i've saw i've seen it with other agents and stuff i'm like bro you're not in america right now bro you need to chill out with that and like guys are trying to smuggle alcohol and shit countries that don't like, drunkenness and i'm like you're fucking around you don't think it's a big deal and you're laughing it off until you wind up being in prison for like you like

months and then you get aimed And then that drinking will be worth it, bro. It's not worth it, man. I'm good. Yeah. I'm good. It ain't funny now. So in listening to you talk about the international part of it, though, it sounds like with the international side of it, you not just have the criminal justice system, but you also have the political system. It's kind of intertwined in that machine as well, which adds a whole nother layer to it that, you know, we may not think about.

Yeah, you really see it. I think the U.S. has started to see it with the different administrations and their rhetoric. And then you see the what the effects of that in the streets with, you know, right now, the Trump stuff, people are attacking Tesla dealerships and Tesla drivers for unknown reasons.

Very stupid. But and then, well, I guess in Trump's first administration, you had the VLM riots and you had all of this, you know, this this hatred towards the administration, which then trickulates into hate towards cops. And who are just trying to enforce that administration's laws. And so you're starting to see the unrest turn violent. Well, in other countries, that is a very real thing. And again, it just kind of depends on the countries.

But I mean, France, they will have riots. They will burn fucking streets to the ground because of taxes. And again, we're talking about political ideology and people's passion against it.

Cops are there to enforce the laws the government has basically put forth right and typically, that then turns towards how could you possibly be a part of that we are getting off on a bunch you know um but i think it's important i think it is too i'll finish this thought and i want to one more thought this is something that every federal agency that i've ever been a part of they actually talk about it and i've been to the the museum a couple times but let me let me get But

you see the population starts going against the law enforcement. And I just saw the DHS secretary, Noem, apparently people are now calling to shoot ICE agents on site because they're enforcing the immigration stuff, again, from the administration. This is their job, right? So they're enforcing the laws that are going for by the government who was elected by the people, blah, blah, blah, right? Right. So I get it in the sense that that's the face of the policy that you don't like or you hate.

But these are still, this is kind of part of this whole podcast. These are still men and women who have families and are trying to do the right thing.

But I will say the one thing that has stuck with me is we, FBI and Secret Service, we did tours of the Holocaust Museum in D.C. And the reason we did that is like, this is what happens when you start following and enforcing the laws of a dictator that you know are heinous. You're gassing children, you're shooting kids in the streets, you're wiping out an entire generations and lines.

At what point the law enforcement or the military say, no, we're not going to enforce this and side with the people they're there to protect, right? It's a very, it's easy to look back at the Nazis and go, oh, my God, how could they ever do that? But you and I both know we've had to do a few things. Again, we're not talking about gassing or murdering families. I'm not talking about that. But like, what's the line, you know, what's the line in the sand?

And again, for me, I would say gassing and shooting entire families. But arresting someone to the point that the dude dies for selling Lucy's cigarettes. Right. I don't know. The DUI guy in Atlanta, who probably had a DUI, who ended up fighting wrestling, getting a dude's taser. If he gets come down, now half of Atlanta burns. So it's not necessarily you're rising up against the government or the administration. But you kind of got to put yourself like, what am I doing right now?

And what could be the ramifications of that? But you know what I mean? Like, I mean, George Floyd stuff, I know it's a hot topic right now, but the dude passed a $20 counterfeit. And next thing you know, the whole country's burning. And now that, that cop's life is destroyed, whether he gets, whether Trump tries to save him or not, it doesn't matter that he, that guy can't go anywhere in the U S like he can't, ever get a job. You know what I mean? He'll be haunted.

So it just adds that extra layer of pressure. Yeah, and it's like you said in one of the previous ones that we talked about. We have to, this is where, again, we go back to the machine. These laws that are created, we've got to be able to have evaluation to happen as to, should we even have a cop there? Should a cop have ever been involved in this type of situation? Because, let's look at it from a moral standpoint. Is it right?

You know, there's A lot of times that we evaluate things, for instance, when we chase cars, there used to be that we chased the cars no matter what the reason was. And then they started having situations where people were dying as a result of us chasing people for things that were so trivial that we did have to look in hindsight and go, wait a minute. If we're chasing somebody who has a suspended driver's license and they hit and kill a whole family, was the risk worth the reward?

No, it's not. And so now we do have to start evaluating those things, like you said, and looking at it from that standpoint of, is this something we should be doing? Yeah, and that's a great example because, again, we've been in car chases. The thrill and exhilaration of chases, I mean, like, I don't know, I'll speak for myself. The image you get of a cop, you know, uniform, cop car, fucking 100 miles an hour, chasing a fucking bad guy.

You either pit him or he bails out or whatever. You put on, you chase him on foot. Boom, let me tackle him. You got your guy. You arrest the bad guy. It was fucking cool as shit. And you're like, boom, I'm the fucking man. And then you have some supervisor go, what if that guy would have hit a minivan full of kids and, you know, killed the whole family?

I was like it was like SARS come on man why you gonna do me like I'm excited right now but it's like that but that's the reality right I mean we I've never seen it and I've watched I've watched cops who talked about it on documentaries or even live you know that they go on speaking tours, the trooper did that he was responding to a robbery in progress his buddy his his co-worker his buddy his co-worker was like I need backup I got him to gunpoint he's fucking hauling ass,

little girl walks in the road boom smokes your shit down.

That's i mean that i mean he was trying to do the right thing and in doing that he killed an innocent and it's like his career i mean he fuck his career his brain like how do you deal with that right it's just you always got to be kind of thinking through those things and it again just little things that it makes it even harder right you're trying to do the right thing you're trying to keep your community safe but there's all these outliers that you always got to be kind of thinking about.

And you do. It's insane. So I think it was important to talk about, I wanted to know, because we talk about the very levels that are wrapped into this machine, I thought it was important to get a little bit of a taste of internationally and how that plays into it as well.

But we could do a massive deep dive in talking about the criminal justice machine, because there are so many, there's the major parts, and then within the major parts, there's minor parts and within the minor parts, there's even smaller parts, but every bit of them plays a, like every bit of it has to do with how things are going to turn out and how things change and what ruling is going to be made different or what is going to be made legal and what's going to be questioned morally.

So we don't have the time to deep dive into it that way, but I wanted to talk about at least the three large parts, but not forget that each large part has smaller components that are also involved. So we're going to talk about some of it, but not do a complete deep dive into everything.

And the idea that popped into my head is we obviously have our cops. Everybody knows that we were and are cops at this point. But we also had interactions with all the other COGs. So talking about what we want to talk about today is the COPs, the courts, and the correction systems. And how those things work together and how, for us, I can't talk about being a correction officer. I can't talk about being an attorney.

But I can talk about being a cop and some of the frustrations that were born out of having to work and have this machine turn with those other entities. So I started starting out talking about our piece of the puzzle, our cog, being cops. And I would tell you one of the things that when I was teaching or when I teach, I will tell the cadets is understand that.

And you touched on a little bit a minute ago, when it comes to law enforcement, that we are typically the first contact that the public will have with the law. When we talk about the criminal justice machine or the criminal justice system, we're that first contact. And sometimes we could be the only contact.

So when we have that contact with those individuals, we need to be ever present on what it is that we're saying, how we're conducting ourselves, what it is that we're doing, and trying to make sure as big as it is, like you just touched on, we're not just doing a chase. Now we do have to weigh, what am I chasing this person for? What could be the ramifications if something goes bad?

Am I willing to make that risk with this situation? Or do I cut this fish loose and wait and say, I'll get him another day? There's all those things that we have rolling around while being worried. How are we going to make this impression upon the public? And that is something we do have to think about. It's one of those things that a lot of times we say, well, why do we have to be held at a different standard than the average person or the public or whatever?

Because we are one of the few professions that can take somebody's freedom away. In many cases, if I can take your freedom away with respect, Now, the advent of, yes, everyone wears body cams and things like that, but you know what? Body cams failed. And I can still go into court and testify that Tyler did X, Y, and Z and have Tyler's freedom taken away from him off of that. So for that reason, we do have to weigh all those things kind of at the same time.

But remembering, we go out in the public. We are the face of the law. We are the face of the court system. We are the face of corrections because people who don't go to jail don't interact with people in corrections. People who don't have issues to end up in court, they may never go to a courthouse, but they're going to see us driving around. They're going to interact with us. We're going to pull them over. We're going to respond to their house as victims.

And the victims, the people we pull over, things like that, that's the only time sometimes they have a register as to what is the law. And we have to think about that when we are making those contacts and think about what is the impression or the impressions that you are making out there in the world.

Yeah yeah no and again like what you're talking about again we're not trying to do a deep dive but it really comes it's really poignant when there is a victim when you see somebody who's been physically hurt or you know in the throes of distress either from domestic violence or they just got burglarized and their their their safety has been compromised or you know a loved one has been hurt or murdered or car crash you know whatever's

going on and there's an actual person there that's a victim it's like it's almost like cop mode ensues because now you're like i want to protect this person this person deserves justice and i think a lot of cops that i've ever dealt with and again speaking personally you kind of want to i don't want to say you want to do a better job but it's like you're really cognizant of what you're doing at that point not to say that when it's like a see like when it's a traffic stop and

it's just you and the guy who did the traffic violation or whatever it just it changes the scenario but again you are that representation, and, you know, it kind of ties into, it's really up to you. You have to sit there and figure out, you know, am I going to arrest this person? Am I going to detain this person? Is it a verbal, you know, rebuke? We used to call them verbal assaults, but maybe you don't want to say that.

Do they deserve a tongue lashing? You know, what is, you have, the onus is kind of on you in the moment as to what you're going to do and how you're going to treat this other human being. You also see that when you're dealing with prostitutes or homeless people and stuff you don't need to arrest these people every time just talk to them, what's going on? Hey, maybe don't do that here whatever it is you need something to drink you need to be able to,

You can't be a robot, right? That's why I don't think robot cop would ever work. You need to be able to communicate with people. But at the same time, whatever interaction you have with that person, you're setting it up for the next interaction with a different cop. And so you want to at least, even if it's not always a good one, you at least want to have a professional one. Absolutely. And I think, too, that the impressions that we make, it's not just on cops.

It goes across the entire criminal justice system. because they assume that that cop who does a good job or doesn't do a good job is a recognition of everything from the top to the bottom. And in many cases, I can understand that viewpoint for someone who doesn't have any kind of connection with law enforcement or doesn't have any connection with the court system or doesn't have any connection with anybody in corrections.

I can understand them being like, well, that's how it is when you're dealing with somebody that's in that world, essentially.

So this marries into what i was saying before about like we are one of the cogs and our the impressions that we make out there in the world can affect that person that has to go through the court system or the person who has to go into the correctional institute are they going to come in already with the chip on their shoulder and therefore be that much more difficult when they're in the jail for those people to deal with you know so it all we all turn the machine like i assessment.

Another thing that I think definitely is on us as law enforcement officers to make sure that we understand that we are affecting is our ability to interpret or understand law or the lack thereof. Because we've worked with people who don't understand law. And when I say law, I mean like the ones that the big ones like, when can I search somebody? When can't I search somebody? When can I detain somebody?

What's considered an arrest? I've been with people who have effectively conducted an arrest that was not a good arrest, and we've had to say, hey man, get that person out of handcuffs and cut them loose because you are wrong. You know, that, the impression is, the world believes that cops come where we just, we go to a machine and the information is downloading in our brain, and we fully have to do it. With law. And I can tell you, there's some seasoned officers that don't understand

some of the big ones, like search and seizure. When can you search somebody? When can you hang somebody? They don't understand. When is a warrant required? When do I have to get consent? Or can I ask for consent? And the person says, no, do I really, do I have to abide by that? No. Or is this one of those situations where there's a fourth amendment exception? So I can say, well, I can search anyway, and here's my grounds for it.

One of the things I think is very pivotal and it's sometimes tough to teach some of the new guys is understanding that we can't just say we're going to do this because we're cops.

It's not like it is on television. We have to, if I'm going to violate Tyler's Fourth Amendment rights, and he tells me, I don't want you searching me, and I say, I'm going to do it anyways, I have to be able to articulate and explain why I'm doing it and why it falls under that exception to allow me to do those kinds of things. I've got to be able to explain if I search Tyler's car, you know, what part of his car was I legally allowed to search?

I mean, even things like that, a lot of times you don't fully grasp that, like, there are certain times that we can search the whole car, and there are certain times that we cannot. And you have to be able to understand that. And the public at large thinks that, oh, yeah, he's a cop, so he does that. No. Yeah, some of it's gray. Some of it's gray. Some of it is. And when you say gray, though, I always like to clarify that,

because people think gray means that it means it doesn't follow our rule. That's not the code.

It's more like the scenario you're in at the moment because again, Sharo Sharo he's like two things he's like this isn't a job for you this is a profession you should be, you need to read you need to know the laws this is a profession this is not just some job you clock in and clock out you need to know what the fuck you're doing and then number two, don't make bad case law you don't want to be that cop that did something so

fucked up that they now make a case law named after you because you fucked it up so bad. So when I say gray, you can't game plan and outline every single scenario and I'm having a hard time when I'm trying to come up with one. A lot of the ones that I had to deal with that were kind of gray were like DUIs where you pull them out of the car. Well, now do you search the car? I see the liquor right there in the center console and then when I go to reach for it, I look over and I see a box.

Can I look inside the box? what's in that box? Well, now am I doing a check to make sure there's no valuables in there? Well, because you don't want to tow it away, and there was a Rolex in there. Well, then I opened the box, and there's cocaine in there. Can I charge it with that cocaine? See what I'm saying? You're trying to do the right thing, but that's what I mean. Yeah, go ahead. But the beauty is what you just did is you articulated every step.

I know. Searching the vehicle, which we do for safekeeping because it's going to be impounded, and subsequently impounded. No, I wasn't searching his vehicle to find drugs, but if it happens, there's nothing under the law that says, ignore it. But there's a lot of people who don't do it the right way either. And they will know like, oh, great. When you say about a gray area, this is where people who absolutely are operating in what is not a gray area, but they'll try to pretend it is.

Oh, well, I think I'm going to arrest this guy for DUI. Somebody's on the way to pick his car up. So if somebody's on the way to pick his car up, we don't have a right to search it now because you've given that up.

We're not towing it or impounding it well i might i might impound it so i'm gonna search it and then if they find something now all of a sudden i'm gonna impound it that's where it becomes problematic you can't do that you know those are the kind of things where people will call that quote unquote gray but that is not gray so and that comes to people again interpreting and understanding the law or their lack thereof or sometimes just not being someone who should

be doing this job and looking at it as a profession, you know? Yeah.

Knowing when they can detain people and when you can't, understanding that, knowing, you know, like I said, what is an arrest, first and foremost? It's not handcuffs. It's not Miranda. Sometimes I've handcuffed people, and it's because I'm detaining them. It has nothing to do with me arresting them. I have given Miranda to people because I don't know if they are a suspect or where this is going to lead, and I want to make sure they understand their Miranda rights.

And subsequently, they don't happen to be the suspect. So you have to understand, and I love that you said this, one of the big things that is huge to understand is that I cannot give you a checklist and say, this is what you're going to do on every single call. You have got to be able to take your situation and circumstances, have an understanding of law, be able to interpret the situation and overlay the law on that situation and understand how it works or how it doesn't work.

So that you can determine, should I change? Should I arrest? Does probable cause actually exist for this particular crime? Because probable cause is different for every single crime. So with that being said, people like the way we do our job can muddy the system up too. One of the ways is by creating case law. You mess up and that ties up the court system for a while because there's appeals.

It goes to the next level of the court system It goes to our state Supreme Court Then it could go to the U.S. Supreme Court And it could tie up all kinds of areas Until they come down with an actual ruling And if the ruling is against you Now it may change how your entire agency And many other agencies are able to enforce law So Yeah, we can inadvertently muddy the system up that way. Yeah, Mo, three short stories that will summarize what you're talking about.

Two of them were me, and one was a new deputy who was just off FTO, and he calls out. I'm listening because I know he's new, so you're trying to be a good zone partner. Does the traffic stop. 10 seconds later, he's like, I'll take the 10-15, which means I've arrested this person, signal 57, which means there's drugs. And I'm like, that went really fast. Let me go see what's going on. So I go back there like three minutes later. I go, hey man, what you got? He goes, dude, he has black par heroin.

And I went, well, it's not the 80s. I've never seen it in this area of town. I said, let me see what you got.

And he holds it up and I go, did you test it he goes no i was just about to i was like let me save you the hassle that's pipe tobacco he was like what it's like real if you don't know what pipe tobacco is it's really wet it is dark but it looks nothing like black tower heroin he goes no way i said yeah bro i said let's just hold off on what we're doing here go ahead and test it so what might be put your mind to these but i'm like that's pipe tobacco i go and i talk to the driver

he's like it's not heroin I was like, sir, sir, I understand. Just give us a few minutes. Apologize for the inconvenience. Give me a minute. He's like, okay. Luckily, all worked out. We unhandcuffed the guy. He chewed the fucking deputy up. And I said, you're going to take this tongue lashing because you deserve it. You fucking, you're about to arrest this man for some pipe tobacco. I was like, bro. And he's like, oh my God, I'm an idiot. I was like,

dude, you've never seen it before. We'll brush it off. But I said also, yes, you're an idiot. And I said, also, don't say that shit on the radio. You know, fucking call somebody first. Number two was that I was, I'd actually been on for like, I don't know, a year. When I say on, cut loose for maybe a year or two. And I arrested somebody. I can't remember exactly. It had to do with like burglary or something like that.

And I wrote on there like burglary and then possession of stolen property or something like that.

And again i'm trying i don't know if you want to use the name but it was a detective he calls me because he sees it on the thing and he goes hey man what's the statute for still a possession of stolen property and i'm like what do you mean he goes just just look that up for me real quick, i'm looking i'm looking he lets me do it for like five minutes he goes yeah there's not a statute for that that's not a crime i was like what he goes yeah that's not a crime take that off i said

he goes the rest is fine he goes but come see me when you're done and so he gave me the whole education he goes that's not a crime to simply possess stolen property he goes you don't know how he got it got it whatever it was a learning lesson right then number three and this is kind of where you know that it kind of ties in everything we just talked about all into one moment that could have gone really bad but so i it's me behind the car run the plate stolen,

And I think it had like a tail light out. It was like something I saw. I was like, oh, I'll run the plate. Stolen. I was like, oh, my God, stolen. So I call a couple of cars. Boom, we pin this car. It's some lady just driving. And it was like a minivan. We pull her out at gunpoint. We do the whole thing, the whole shebang of things. Stolen car. Everyone's coming. She's crying. She's brought out on the road. We handcuff her,

bring her to the car. I go, we've got to talk to you. She's like, oh, my God, what's going on? We dig into it. It was reported stolen. it was a rental car and they had never taken it out of the system. She didn't steal it. She actually had the rental contract. They re-rented it, never taking it out of the system. Yeah. Luckily, once again, we explained everything that happened. I was incredibly apologetic.

And she wasn't happy, but she went on about her way and we tied her up for maybe a half hour. But that could have gone real bad. That could have gone real bad for all of us. So these are things that kind of come into play when you're dealing with the public. And when you're trying to decide whether you're going to detain, what is detaining, what is an arrest, even though you said you've arrested them, have you actually arrested them?

Also, knowing the law and understanding the law and understanding the interpretation of the law. Actually, that ties into one more story. I'm sorry. I'm trying not to do too many funny shows. I told you I was excited about this topic.

So there was an update to it was a domestic violence law statute and i don't remember all the stats off the top of my head but there used to be a statute where if you called on the telephone a landline and you threatened to kill your kill your significant other that was a miss that was considered a misdemeanor like if you left it on like the voice machine or whatever well there was an update that if you used an electronic device computer cell phone

text messaging whatever that's a second degree felony. Well, we're in the 2000s now, so it's cell phones. And I arrested this dude for a second-degree felony. A old head corporal who'd been a corporal for too long read that, and he goes, that's not a felony. It's a misdemeanor. I said, no, corporal, that is a felony. He goes, he throws it back at me. He goes, call the AUSA, have them tell you what it is.

So I get the AUSA. It's like 2 o'clock in the morning. She goes, oh, hell no. She goes, not only is that that felony, add these two felonies because this, this, and this. And I said, boom, perfect. So I go back to the corporal. He goes, I'm not signing that. So then I go to the lieutenant. Yeah. Needless to say, the next day, the corporal, this was another one of those moments, the corporal had to come apologize to me because he was not aware of the updated statute.

Yeah. Needless to say, this is where Tyler starts making a bad name for himself. He starts pissing people off. And then we went downhill from here. And it started going downhill. You're starting to see a theme there.

But even somebody who's been here for a long time it is imperative that just because you have done this job that you can't sit back on your laurels one of the best things i think i ever did at this at when i was at the sheriff's office just starting to be a field training officer and then subsequently becoming an instructor because you can't sit in a seat and teach people if you don't know the latest information and you're not able to provide them with the correct information for their toolbox.

And as a court rule, shame on you for not knowing the updates or not knowing where to look for the information and find it or being so arrogant that when someone who's been there less time than you, who usually have the latest and greatest information and tells you, hey, there's been a change that you say, no, there haven't. You should always be open to learning this job because this isn't a profession. Anything that you do professionally, you should constantly be growing in.

So, shame on him. Shame on him. So I'll tell you, he's still a corporal. He's still a corporal. So the last part I want to talk about when we're talking about our cog, and I thought this was something that to me was important. The level of frustration that we have when it comes to certain parts of the criminal justice system. And we're going to go into a little bit more detail when we talk about the courts and corrections.

But I will tell you that as a law enforcement officer. Me doing the parts that I do, I try to do them at a level of excellence, but then there comes some frustration that comes in which can affect how you are turning out information or how you're turning out your part of the machine when you have no control over whether the person is guilty or innocent. We don't have anything to do with the courts when it comes to that.

We testify, we gather evidence, we don't have anything to do with whether they're guilty or innocent.

We have no input on the punishment that is levied against the individual and we all know there are people we've arrested and we're like that person just needs probation they just need help they just need whatever and there's other people that you're like that guy is and needs to be he needs it all coming in so that at times can create some frustration because of how the other columns are turning.

And so therefore it affects how we do our job because we go, why am I putting in all this time and energy on a case, making a good case at that, gathering evidence, doing my interviews, making sure I do know the law, making sure I'm interpreting the law accurately, obtaining warrants when I need to, making sure I'm properly documenting in my report the way I'm doing things and why I did things and properly handling the

evidence and doing all those things and giving Miranda just to turn around and have the courts go, eh, we're going to drop the case. Wait, what? Or plead to electric charge. How many times have you had that happen? All the time. Yeah, the most frustration. You arrest somebody for trying to fight you and they punch you in the face because you won. The attorney calls and goes, well, I mean, did you suffer any permanent injuries?

No. We're going to plead them down on Mr. Mayor's in the community service. You're like, motherfucker. Well, and that's frustrating because when you send me out to do a job and there are times when my job is dangerous and I understood that when I signed up for it. But there are laws that are put in place that are supposed to protect me, the individual law enforcement officer, because what I do is dangerous.

And now when that thing has happened and just because I didn't get seriously injured, we're going to cut this person loose. Well, there's a lot of grievance when you say what indicates future behavior is past behavior. So that guy that gets into a fight with a law enforcement officer and does not get into serious trouble will do it again. And the outcome next time might not be as good.

Correct. And I think this ties into the next section about the courts, but also when you're, I think it's kind of mutual with not just the attorneys involved, but jury where you arrest a monster. And because of the, and we'll get into this, but the way, because of the way the courts are set up and you can't have anything that's too, I can't remember the words for it out, but you can't like, you can't show images

of the dead body or whatever, because it's too provocative for the jury. Inflammatory. Inflammatory thank you they might find the guy not guilty or you and i have both heard there's no way another human could do that to another human we we just it seems unbelievable to us and this and as a cop you gotta sit there and just swallow like you saw it because you were on the scene right but because you're not allowed to show the information and show the images or show the video that was a lot of sex

crime stuff you couldn't show the actual evidence to the jury because it's too inflammatory. Sometimes people would either be found not guilty or get a reduced sentence or something like that. Right. A lot of people don't know that. It's hard for people to wrap their heads around that this is the kind of things that we actually deal with and see out there.

And it's incredible. And we kind of segued into talking about the court system, but there is a lot to the court system where, And the biggest frustration, I think, for cops is just that, the plea bargains, the pleading to lesser charges, the dropping of charges, those kind of things when we go, what am I doing all this on this side? Why am I putting myself in danger to arrest people when this is what the outcome is?

And I say this to say we're going to dive into talking about the courts, and I recognize that the court system has their own, they have their own hurdles that they're trying to get over.

They have their own levels of frustrations as well And i'm sure if you ask somebody who works for the courts one of their frustrations when it comes to law enforcement officers I'm sure that they can rattle off some things that cops are not doing accurately as well So please for those of you who are going to come for the fact that well i'm a i'm a you know Whatever in the courts and so this is what we think that's great I would love to hear your hear your point of view as well I'm,

just telling you from a cost point of view These were some of the things that we looked at and we saw, and we had to constantly... Change how we did things and try to maneuver, not in a bad way, but maneuver around making sure we checked every single box while trying to do a job that was incredibly stressful. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, again, neither one of us are attorneys. I'm actually trying to get a couple of attorneys on.

Still work in progress. But, you know, we talk about prosecutor, defense, judge, and jury. And I'll just, my interactions, because I know some personally, maybe not jury. I mean, anybody can be on the jury, but prosecutor, defense, judge. and just a quick little synopsis to my opinion.

Prosecutors, you know, they're also in their profession so they want to make sure they have a good case and I've seen plenty of prosecutors show me like, bro, to help your boy out, you know, you're reading some police report and you're like, good God almighty. It's just a front-up police report and you're like, what do you want me to do with this? Also, there's a huge difference between, you know, state prosecutors and then federal prosecutors.

State prosecutors have a fucking 800-person case lead. They, They might not even know the case until they show up to court because there's so many. There's only 24 hours in the day. Defense attorneys, same thing, both sides. When you're talking about state and federal, again, federal side, it's a little bit, that's why they stretch it out. They might prep for, they might have two trials a year and they're going to prep for six months.

So that's why the system bogs down, whereas the state prosecutor in defense might do fucking six in one day. Like, you know, it's just the way that it is. Yeah, and I'll say this because a lot of cops get real frustrated with defense attorneys, and I've been on the stand where a defense attorney is basically calling me everything, you know, everything but by my name. I'm a piece of shit. I'm a corrupt cop. I'm unprofessional. I'm a fucking idiot. I don't know the law.

They're there to do the best for their client. It does invoke a strong reaction from cops, I'll tell you. There was a great attorney that worked for HDSO who became an HDSO attorney. He was a prosecutor and a defense attorney. And then he worked for the Hillsborough County. And we said, well, which one did you like best? He goes, well, when I was a defense attorney, I drove a Jag. Now I drive a Chevy Malibu. So you tell me. But anyway, he was half joking.

But he goes, you're going to hate defense attorneys. He goes, I'm going to tell you this right now. You're going to hate defense attorneys until you need one. Then you're going to love that. You're going to love that somebody is going to bat for you, finding all the loopholes, technicalities, and make sure somebody did their fucking job. And, and again, he was the one that said that he goes, you were taking someone's freedom away, do your fucking job. And that's how he talked.

It was great. It was excellent. Right. Yeah. Then you get to the, then you get to the judge and judges. I do not know enough about this because there's district courts, circuit courts, state courts, superior courts, you know, so many, there's so many fucking courts. So I can tell you about the judges that are in the courtroom when I'm trying to put someone in jail.

So whatever that judges, how about that? because it varies depending on where you are and what country or I'm sorry, what state or whatever and what, what level of law enforcement. Right. But again, typically they were either prosecutors or defense attorneys and they are there. It's their courtroom. That is one thing that people need to fucking understand. It doesn't matter. You're a high power defense attorney, high power prosecutor. You're the fucking king of the walk, cough, whatever you are.

When you enter Judge Johnson's courtroom, it is his fucking courtroom. He can say, do and control whatever the fuck he wants. And it is wild to see. And it sometimes, usually at times it's very monotonous and just the rules and reading this and the evidence and all that. But I've seen judges go fucking off on attorneys, on the cops, on the defendant, whatever. And they'll fucking lose their shit. They'll kick the jury out. I mean, it's wild to see, but it's their fucking courtroom.

And I don't think I truly understood how all that worked until you've been in a few courtrooms. You're like, oh, okay. Yes, Your Honor. He all rise I'm going to stand up Because otherwise He's going to chew my ass Credit. I will tell you, Steve, I think that that's what this is. Like you said, people have to realize this is not an attack on, oh, the courts. You know, I think they're all horrible. Defense attorneys should be,

you know, outlawed. Like you said, until you need one, you're not supposed to like them. And that is their job. And you expect them to do their job as well as you would do yours as well. So I definitely don't have any ill feelings for defense attorneys, you know, prosecutors, founders because they have an overwhelming caseload. I get that. That's where I say we've got to look at the whole system at large and say, why do we do it this way? And is there a better way to handle it at that point?

Because right now it seems like it is such an overwhelming system that I don't know that we're actually making headway at times. We'll say it that way. But these are ladies and gentlemen that are doing a job.

They don't take it personal. And in many cases, they respect what it is that law enforcement officers do, and they even recognize that the system is kind of broken at a point. So the big thing that I think is important to understand is the courts, what they are in charge of doing is they're responsible for determining if, first of all, charges should be filed. Sometimes people think that arrest is synonymous with being charged with a crime, and that's not the case.

If I arrest you, that does not mean that you're being charged. It means that I have enough probable cause to say that I have evidence to say that there's a good chance that you might have done what you've done. Now, there's not a scale that says it has 61% of the evidence says that you've done it or anything like that. It just says that based on the totaling of the circumstances and the evidence at hand, I believe that you committed this particular crime.

That does not mean that the court is going to pick it up and charge you. That does not mean that you're going to be convicted. and none of those things go together. An arrest can happen and then it can go away. Yeah, I tell him, Cat Williams, baby. I've been arrested 19 times. I've never been charged or convicted, bitch. I've never been to prison. I've only been to jail.

Most people don't know what the fuck he's talking about because if you don't know the system, and actually that's one of the things when I talk to my buddy Dave Tarbox, the ignorance of the justice system where he was just signing deals or whatever and not realizing he was basically setting himself up. For additional punishment. And, you know, that's something that I don't know how you would begin to learn that, to be honest with you.

There's no class in high school or college that says, hey, this is the core system, and this is why people do things, because it changes by the state. And I will say this, all the academies that I've ever gone through, they all go, hey, who's going here? Who's going there? Who's going to New York? All right, y'all are completely different. Y'all do shit fucked up. I don't even know.

I can't even explain it to you. You're going to have to talk to your FTO or something because y'all shit is all fucked up.

Everybody else in the United States, this is typically how it goes. Right. I think what's funny is even on the local level, when you talk about what we teach in the academy about the court system, it's very, very little. It is literally like, okay, this is the prosecutors, this is the jury, da, da, da, da, da, da. But it's a matter of breaking it down. We don't break it down. When I taught, I would teach that block sometimes in legal. And what I would do sometimes is actually do a mock trial.

And I would put the cadets through playing the parts of the defense attorney, playing the parts of the jury, the prosecutor. And I had a mock case that I would give them and I would give them, they would have an entire day. They would prep for the case all morning and they would go to trial in the afternoon. And I think that made them have a little bit of respect for the process itself. And they realized, oh, geez, so all this goes into play.

Like I've got to evaluate the evidence and figure out as a defense attorney, how I'm going to, how I'm going to go about getting my client off. And as a prosecutor, I've got to try to think ahead. What is the defense attorney going to be coming at us about that I can try to already have a defense for? So it's one of those things that a lot of people, even cops don't fully understand because we don't have that interaction with it.

And I feel like it's important that we should, because one of the other things that the court system is charged with is evaluating the evidence that we have gathered and we present to determine the strength of their case. And that leads us into the next piece that kind of creates some frustration with us.

But if we had an understanding better of the court system, then we would have the ability to gather the evidence that they're going to need to get the statements done properly, to make sure that we're documenting our witnesses a little bit better so that they would have all those things together. Because they evaluate the evidence and it doesn't give them a strong case. Like you said, prosecutors have 800 cases practically. It's insane.

So if they can read the case and go, what's up with your boy, Tyler? They're going to null prostrate case all day because I don't have time to try to fight for a case that has weak evidence. And so I'm going to either null prostrate or I'm going to do the next level, plea bargaining or having them plead to a lesser charge or something along those things, along those lines, and. We as cops can get frustrated and go, yep, they've done it again. They're not baffing us.

But we have to think, let's first think, why are they doing it? And then there are some times where that becomes a necessary evil. I think that part of understanding, if we could understand the criteria, I think it would make it easier for us as cops to swallow tooth. Yeah, and actually, you just remind me, another thing kind of ties back into the cops and courts.

I went on a tear for like, I don't know, probably 10 or 12 domestic violence cases because I read in the domestic violence statute that it's physical abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse. And whenever there was like, oh, he beat the shit out of me in front of my kid, I charged that dude with not just domestic violence, but the mental abuse of a child as well. I laugh. I stand by it and I argued it. Right. And I made it, I played, I played my, I went all the way to the Lieutenant and he goes,

he goes, fuck it. Let's see what happens. He goes, I don't disagree with you. Yeah. Beating the shit out of your, your mom or your dad in front of you when you're six, seven years old, that was, I would say that it's causing mental, you know, mental scarring, you know, that's traumatic, mental traumatic event. So I got about seven or eight of those under my belt. And my phone rings on my day off. It is the chief prosecutor for the, for Hillsborough County going, are you Jeffrey Martin?

I was like yes sir he goes yes stop he goes stop charging mental abuse I was like well but he goes that's not how it works he goes when you do that we have to fly in professionals it bogs it down for six seven months to a year because they have to go to. PsycheVal the kids he goes you don't realize the work you're creating when you do that stop it I was like Bobby Ed, sir, understood But That's the interpretation of the law, though I'm like, yo,

Not just that. That's absolutely, again, one of the cogs mucking up the system and being unaware, too.

That's like, you didn't know that this was part of their criteria for if you charge this crime. Yeah. You know? I bogged that system down. I bogged it down. So you can see, like, we do certain things and have no idea.

And I'm sure that creates frustration on the court side. it's going to be like what is happening right now sir you know I got one more for you it has nothing to do with the courts but these are things that affect cases I learned this as well, great witnesses that are not great witnesses that is something that will fuck up your case. This crime was committed in full view of these two witnesses they saw it they described it they articulated it well Yeah, come to find out they're drug addicts.

They also have criminal histories. They're a little unreliable. You start feeding fodder to the defense attorney. And I'll give you one quick example. This was a federal side case. And the suspects committed some pretty violent crimes in front of a great witness. She happened to be a stripper, which I never cared. Prostitutes, tripper, homeless guy. If you're promising, you can talk. You're a human being. I don't care what you do for a living.

Right. Then we go to grand jury, and we're trying to prep her for grand jury, and the prosecutor's trying to explain to her the rules in the grand jury. And it's very monotonous, tedious, and she goes, oh, so I shouldn't show my titties like this? And she just, boom, busts her titties out. In the conference room, everyone goes, oh my god. I laugh. I'm like, please put your titties in there. Prosecutor's like horrified. He goes, please don't ever do that.

He needed a minute and luckily there was like three other women in the room and everyone was like, oh my God. Great witness? I mean, I think that's hilarious, but probably should do that in a grand jury. Probably can't use her for a grand jury because she's kind of a loose cannon though. Could fuck up your case, right? Could fuck up your case. Might mess it up a little bit.

So what I'm saying is, here you are, You've got a great case everything's done right Working well with the court system you're ready to roll And your key witness, You gotta rein that in you gotta Tighten it up yeah And some of them you can take a chance with Some of them you can't bro, Yeah so Just things to think about Just things to think about and those like is this a necessary evil That we're gonna have to offer a plea bargain to this guy Because our great witness is a loose cannon,

Busting the titties out Everywhere I'm like yeah The cop that wasn't sitting in the room gets mad and goes, what? What are we doing here? You know, it's crazy. So the other part that the court is in charge of is obviously the trials and the punishment. First, I want to talk about the trial part of it, because I'll tell you, as a cop, one of the things that drove me nuts is how long, if something was going to go to trial, that it took to go to trial.

And I get it. Before people tell me, oh, people need to have time to do their case. They've got to be they've got to have time to be able to depot people and and the defense needs to have time. I know. But when you're talking about time, I have cases sometimes that would go to trial three and four years later. Come on. There has to be a system that runs it a little more efficiently than we do. And I don't know.

I've never been in trouble or had any kind of dealings with a court system outside of the United States. But I just wonder, this is the best system that we have in place that someone can commit a crime today. I can arrest them. and then it takes them three to four years sometimes to go to trial.

And we're not talking a murder case. I can even understand a murder case because, which even so sidebar, I feel like sometimes murder cases get dragged out too long too because there's a victim's family out there that is waiting to get closure. And we are dragging these cases before they ever appear at trial.

Five, six, seven. I know for me as a person, if I got killed, I wouldn't want my family to have to wait five or six or seven years to get the situation resolved and be able to close that chapter. So what I'm talking about, not the murder cases, I'm talking about burglaries. I'm talking about car jackings. I'm talking about, you know, thefts. I'm talking about white collar crimes. We're talking three, four years to put a case together.

I don't think it should take that long. And it becomes very frustrating because now as me, as the law enforcement officer, in that three or four years, I've worked numerous other cases. And you want me to be able to recall information about that case. Yes, I wrote a report. Yes, there was, you know, I included all of my, because I prided myself on writing good reports back in the day.

But what I do think is not, that is hard to hang on to is the sentiment and the emotion that was conveyed to you by those victims at that particular time. Three or four years down the road, it just, it's not going to resonate with you because it's been three or four years. So it's really hard to be able to convey that then subsequently to our jury. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll tell you, it only gets worse when you deal with white collar crimes. You're talking three or four years.

I've had a hard case that's eight years old at this point, and they're still going to Toronto. And again, a lot of it, white collar crime could be a real pain in the ass because you're talking and sometimes several hundreds of thousands, if not a million, two million pages of documents because it's. All the subpoenas and the search warrants and the data and the interviews. It's just a lot. And you're talking about depots. You're going to call the witnesses and make

sure they can go to trial. You got to coordinate travel for them. But then also you got to think about, you're trying to explain this case in the most basic form for a jury to understand and trace this guy committed this crime and all this. I mean, you look like a madman with all the, all the graphs and diagrams. I'm like, this is how they're all connected and tied into. And you have to prove it.

And so I yeah and again in the meantime this dude has victimized hundreds of thousands of people for millions of dollars and you're trying to get them restitution and I've also had ones where dude sat in jail waiting for trial for so long that go to trial found guilty time served because they'd already been in jail for 40 years I'm like good god right yeah that's the kind of stuff that's I just feel like our system, that's the part of the system that we need to, it needs to be looked at because

that just does not make sense to me that it should take that long for things to come to resolution. Yeah. Yeah. And that ties into the punishment too. So it gets too lenient, too harsh, whatever. Again, all these things kind of tie in. But again, I think a lot of that is going to come falls on the judge. And I'm just trying to tell you, there are some really good, strong judges I've seen. I've seen some that are just full-blown pro-law enforcement and just wants to almost help a little bit.

So are you trying to say this? But I've also had – I've seen the judges that are basically hate cops, and I've dealt with them, where they basically want to try to make you look like a fucking idiot. So anyway, a lot of that stuff ties into that. But that, again, we're talking about judges and punishments and stuff that ties into logistics and stuff.

Yeah, I didn't think about that. I was thinking more of the planning of the actual trial and stuff because you've got to tie in all these things together.

But go ahead, Mo, you make a good point because also as a cop, tying back up to the cops, going to the trial, a lot of times you just got done working a 12, 14-hour shift and then you've got to go sit in the courtroom. I actually, go ahead, elaborate on that. I'm sorry I skipped that part. Sure. No, no, no. That was fine. The thing, like when we're talking about the trials, there's also a logistics side of it that they don't think about, which again, I think that we need to think.

Like we've moved to being a 24-hour society for the most part, except for in certain areas. So you have cops that work all day or work all night. Court systems only run eight to five. So now I've worked all night. I'm supposed to come to court and testify on this trial too. That's three or four years old and have good recollection or because I've had attorneys challenge me and they'll be like, well, can you tell me this? And I'll be like, can I reference my report?

After about three or four times of doing that, they'll go, do you have any independent knowledge of this report or of this case? And I'll be like, it's written in my report. That was my independent knowledge. Yeah, but do you remember anything? No, it's three or four years later, and I worked all night last night. I have not been asleep since yesterday at 3 o'clock. I'm exhausted.

So the logistical part of it also is not conducive to make sure that cops are at their best for something that is this important. No, and you know what? My personal story, I worked 12-hour shifts. Court was at 8. I think I got off at 7. I think I slept in my car until 8, walked to the courtroom.

Waiting there's usually like a little section in the courthouse for deputies, and i was supposed to go right right in like that's what i was expecting i fell asleep i fell asleep in the thing i woke up at one in the afternoon they still hadn't called in.

Now this was probably one of the least professional i've been i started yelling, at the not a bailiff but anyway there's there's deputies who really messages i'm fucking yelling so loud, two judges sent a bailiff out to see what the racket was and it was me because I'm like, I need to go to fucking sleep. I'm mad. I haven't eaten. I haven't gone to sleep. I thought I was going to go testify and be able to go home to sleep because I was actually supposed to work that night.

I didn't go into the courtroom until three o'clock moment and I was so fucking pissed. My testimony was not the best and I ended up having to call my sergeant, but I just got out of the course or I haven't slept. He's like, oh my God, he goes, don't worry about a cut tape today. But I'm like, but to your point, they don't give a fuck, or at least that's how I felt. No.

That's how you feel. And that creates frustration for cops because you do feel like we're supposed to work together because we are part of this criminal justice system. And I don't think you give two craps about what's going on and the situation that I'm in, but you're expecting me to perform at a level of excellence. Yeah.

On the stand in front of a jury and a judge you want me to be locked in while a defense attorney is trying to rip me and shred me and call me incompetent, and unprotected I might be at this point because I'm exhausted so yeah at this point shit.

I just thought that was one thing that it's a little off the beaten path but I think that's something that I feel like needs to touch on because it goes back to when we're talking about these trials and the way that the court system is handled in general I think there's so many things that we could do better, and specifically as it pertains to, The trials taking so long, the way we're orchestrating them logistically, how we're setting them up.

There's things that we could do better to make it a better situation and circumstance for all the parts that have to work together.

So that moves us into the next part that you kind of touched on already, but the punishment. It is frustrating when I am doing a case three or four years later. And then because you don't have that same, like I said, you don't have the ability to convey that same emotion and things like that. That you end up with some guy that should be getting time. They go, oh, well, he's been in jail for this amount of time. So, you know, time served. He's good to go.

And you're like, get out of here. You got to get kidding me. So looking at those things, it's rough to go. The punishments are too lenient. We have to deal with appeals a lot of times. Once the person is, maybe they do get a punishment that we feel is fair. And we look at it and we're like, okay, this isn't bad. But then they come back and they appeal it and it gets changed.

And it's like, those pieces are, again, very frustrating for the law enforcement officer who does all the work to try to make sure I'm putting together a great case for you guys to in turn say, well, you know, the trial took, we didn't go to trial for a year and a half and he's in jail all the time. So we're going to have time to serve with that. Or, you know what, he's been in jail for this amount of time, so we're going to give him probation or what happens. It can be very frustrating.

And, you know, the last piece, we won't go into this. We could have a whole block about that is the juvenile system. That system is outrageous. Yeah. I was going to say we should summarize that because we could do a whole block on that shit. We could because it's nuts how that that is a whole nother system within the court system. Yeah. Well, and actually on the federal side, they don't even deal with juveniles.

So juveniles can be committing federal crimes, but they won't charge them. There's no basis. There's no – they don't fit in the federal cog, as it were, or the federal machine, so they just don't deal with it. There might be some one-offs where an exception was made or they were charged as an adult or something like that, but those are all different scenarios, and I don't have any experience with that at all.

But yeah, juvenile cases as a whole are, I got to tell you, I mean, as much as I think we need to deal with the adult section, we need to figure out a better way to deal with the juvenile section because you've got two-minute diagram. Juvenile journalists because they're kids. And it's hard to ascertain a career criminal kid and a kid that just bad upbringing, bad spot, bad choice, bad decision, wrong place, wrong time. I mean, there's just all kind of, I get it.

They're kids and they need, they need and deserve more time to look at them. But I've talked about it on the, on the, on the podcast a couple of times, but I've also arrested a nine-year-old kid. That's definitely going to be a career criminal. We arrested him because he was robbing teenagers. And when we arrested him, he had like $9,000 in his pocket, a gun and like a hundred pack of crap. Where were his parents who say they're both in the federal prison system.

Where's his grandma? she's working 12 hours a day because she's trying to support herself and now her grandson and when you try to interview him he don't give a fuck. I don't know how you deal with that. I'm not saying you got to throw them in with the adults, but there's not. Every state has their own way of dealing with it, like a school or whatever, but there's got to be a better way to sift through the maybe 100 kids that they

stole something, they broke into a car because they saw something they liked. You know, whatever.

It's all serious. I get it. And then on top of that, Mo, there's documentary out there. There's kids that are sociopaths that kill their parents, kill their siblings. Kill their friends. How do you deal with them?

I know. And here's the problem is, though, is if you add the twist of neurological development into it, having taught on the, you know, I teach in the academy, the juvenile piece, one of the things I always throw in there, because we as cops have to think about all the different layers of stuff, is the fact that the brain development and what happens in the brain as we move through our teenage years specifically is a ton of development.

A good deal of development happens with kids when they're obviously two, three, four, five, those age brackets. But then when you get into the teenage years, there's a lot of what they call synaptic pruning that occurs where your body starts to look and say, well, we're not using this part of our brain, so we're going to essentially prune it out. And the parts that we are using, we're going to allow that to grow. Well, that is based entirely on what you're exposed to.

So if you have a child that is exposed to playing piano and becoming a classically trained pianist, their brain is going to synaptically prune out the pieces that go with things that don't line up with that. And they're going to grow and flourish and essentially fertilize and water the areas that have to do with that. So you don't have this kid that's a career criminal who grew up in this type of environment.

And when that kind of happens, the synaptic promenium, some of those things that occur at this age. His brain is obviously going to prune out the parts that we think are important, like being loving and affectionate and emotional development and things like that. And his brain is going to grow more than parts of being a criminal. So at that point, what are we going to do with that individual? Is there a way to turn the train around once that's kind of started to happen with that child?

And we do know the other part of it is the frontal lobe and things like that. Don't stop growing. Don't stop. They're not fully developed until they're 24 years old. So it's one of the things that I always post to them when we're talking about juveniles is if we have someone who is 18 or 17 that commits a crime versus the kid that's 18, is there really that much change in brain development? And if there's not, then should we change the juvenile system to include people all the way up to 24?

Or how do we handle it? So, no, it's insane because the juvenile system has been thrown under the umbrella of the law enforcement system, generally speaking, and into the same cogs, like the same cops that deal with adults, deal with kids, the same corrections officers that deal with adults, deal with kids, the same court systems essentially deal with kids as well.

But I don't know that that's the best way to handle it because we're dealing with an entirely different beast Like it and this is a whole nother thing we'll have to talk about later. I feel like In the law enforcement system when we're talking about corrections with adult that we should have two arms One for punishment one for rehabilitation and depending on the crime you commit you should go down one or the other With kids.

I feel like you probably have to have like 10 arms because There's the kid that that steals, you know something out of a car Like you said, change out of someone's unlocked car versus the kid who we look at this kid and go, that kid, if we cut him loose, he's going to kill multiple people. Like recently, there's a guy who he killed his mom, I think it was, when he was a teenager. And then fast forward, like five years later, kills his dad because they didn't charge him with the mom.

And I don't know all the particulars on the case, but subsequently he killed mom and then like, or vice versa, killed dad. And then five years later, kills mom. So he has killed both parents. supposedly he has an excuse, but. Questioning if you kill both of your parents is you had an excuse for both of them. Yeah. And Mo, let me, just cause we're, we're getting to the time. I want to actually do the episode on corrections.

Cause I think now that we're getting into it, it's expounding, but you know, we're talking about the jail, prison time, probation, parole, the differences, punishment, rehabilitation, things like that. I think we could save that for another episode, but just. Yeah, for sure. That is, that is this episode. Now that's the, the inner workings of the criminal justice system as a whole. And you're talking about juveniles. And again, I just sometimes I just got to use this as my emotional therapy.

But I learned this when I was going through training for sex crimes and they talked about the juvenile system and they were talking about what you're talking about. And the detective talked about one of his cases and it was in Tampa. 17 year old kid gets out of work from like Burger King or Taco Bell. His neighbor is having a party. They're smoking meth.

The kid smokes some meth. the neighbor, the adult guy who had invited this kid over to come hang out with him, wakes up and his girlfriend had been murdered. The kid had stabbed her in the eyes with a film set screwdriver and when the detective caught up with the kid in the interview and he goes, she looked like I wanted to see the look of the blood in her eyes or something, it looked like doll's eyes or something. It's something real creepy. He's like This kid is like, what is going on?

He got charged to find guilty as a juvenile, so he was sent to a juvenile perexial facility. He was out one year later because he was only charged with a juvenile, so he was out later. 45 days after he got out, he did the same thing to a different female. Now he got away for like 50 years. He's like, why did we have to allow somebody else to get murdered?

That's the part that it's like, that's where I say the juvenile system is a whole nother beast in itself in the respect of we have in the cop world specialized training that we can do that's advanced and specialized. And we do have some. Once you get to a detective level for like juvenile handling and things like that, there's a little bit that we can do at a deputy or officer level, It's an entirely different situation from the way they are going to encounter police officers nowadays.

And I will tell you, it's changed since I was on the street. When I first came on the street, we didn't have as much opposition as we do. And nowadays, these kids, they have zero respect for law enforcement. Even the quote-unquote good kids will offer opposition because they don't care.

What are you going to do to them? You know, because they know, even they know how broken, in my opinion, solely my opinion, you guys can be upset about it, but the juvenile justice system is broken with the way it's laid out. It is not set up for them to actually provide any real punishment, in my opinion, or rehabilitation. So that's where I say we need to revamp it and it needs to have like 10 different

arms to address what are we talking about? First of all, let's look at the crime we're talking about. Let's look at the individual child and do some evaluation as to what arm we need to put that person, feed them into, to have some level of success. Because right now, I don't think we're having very big success in our juvenile justice system.

Yeah and you know i could tell you i think my record was i arrested the same kid three times in one night because i arrested him breaking into cars which i thought he was supposed to be held for 21 days like that's what they told us but i guess if the parent is willing to come pick him up whatever that's the first time i'm still writing the report i hear the call go out in the same area and i'm like no fucking way i don't i see him i'm like i was like how the fuck did you

get out and I actually yelled at his mom because I arrested him again twice in the same night yelled at his mom and she's like oh I thought he was in his room I'm like I was like so I was ready to arrest his mom take him back to jail writing that report, now that all transpired between like 6 and 10 2 a.m. Get another call I'm like there's no I actually called I was like there's no way I actually called they said oh yeah his mom can't pick them I'm like I was filled with rage,

Oh, sure as shit. That only did I catch him. I caught him. He was trying to break into another car. I stashed him up and I said, you know what? Fuck this. I'm not a resident. I beg her after this ass because I was like, at least you're going to go sit there for three days and not during my shift because I'm like, I don't know what else to do. The dude committed three felonies in one night after being called a level of frustration that cops have when it comes to juvenile.

And I'm telling you, you can ask any cop. Do you prefer? What's your deal when it comes to juveniles? Oh, they will always classify. I hate juveniles. It's not that we hate kids, but we hate the system that we are required to work in because of it, you know? Yeah, and people want to think it's compassion or you need to have compassion.

Well, what you don't understand is when you allow this shit, adults use juveniles to run drugs and go commit crimes because they know they're going to be out and they're not going to get punished. So they end up getting used way more than if we actually corrected the problem. But I think that's why, Mo, we're going to dig into that. I've already got like too many ideas about corrections. I know. And then we popped off with juveniles because, again, I think any cop that's

listening to this is going, God damn it. They all have at least three that they're like, these motherfuckers. Always, always. Always. We still, I think, we touched on the three big parts. Like I said, there's so much to it. Like I told you in the very beginning, we're going to talk about cops, courts, and corrections. But there's so much when you start doing that.

We can't do a deep dive. Our entire everyday podcast would solely be about just the criminal justice system because it is all-encompassing. It is so intricate. There's so many pieces to the puzzle. And in order for it to work well, we do have to start making some changes because I don't think we're there quite yet. But I think that we do have to be open to recognizing that these are all professions

in their own right. and that everybody who operates within those professions needs to know what their piece of it is and do their piece to a level of excellence. Yeah, and I can tell you right now, every single piece feels underappreciated, overworked, and underpaid. We all know correction people like, they don't pay me enough for this shit. Prosecutor defense, they don't pay me enough for this shit. Cough, they don't pay me enough for this shit. But again, somehow we always make it work.

But no, this was great and I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to the correction one. You already got my mind spent, so I appreciate your time. I love it. Me too. All right, Mo. I'll catch you on the next one. All right.