A Monastic View of The Other

He turned back just before he reached the threshold of the other room. His face fell. But his voice was still clear. There's a fourth body, you know, he said, voice hoarse. Shovel still in the shed.

seven one seven three four seven eight five five four. Right now as we're pretty backed up on interviews, that's the quickest way to get us your story. Tonight I will be talking with Brother Richard, a Franciscan monk, and that'll be coming up in a little bit. He will be talking about

all these different aspects of the other as viewed through the contemplative Christian mystical tradition. It's a very, very interesting conversation. Before I get to that, I wanted to talk about Hellyer season two, which is out. I don't know how many people watched Hellyear Season One. It's kind of a paranormal documentary series. Hell Year Season One is pretty much everywhere at this point, it's on on all different platforms. Hellyear season two was released on Amazon Prime last week.

It will be on other platforms soon. But a little secret I was keeping is my music.

This all comes in a hand stenciled bag with a runestave on it, along with a piece of quartzite from Hex Hollow. These sold out almost immediately, as soon as Hellier was released. I did fifty copies originally. I had the parts to do 100. The first fifty sold out in about a day. The second fifty sold in another day. However, I did keep some back, so I might have a few extra copies. If you really, really want one, you can email me and get on a list. And if I have any extra, I will let you know.

StrangeFamiliars podcast at gmail.com, of course, is how you contact me. Due to some busyness in my personal life, I haven't even finished watching Hell Your Season 2 yet. I'm still in the middle of it. It's gotten a lot of really great reviews, and so far I like it even better than season one, so I'm excited to get to it, and I'll see if I can have Greg Newkirk at least, if not some of the other hellier folks on Strange Familiars to talk about that in a little bit.

But tonight let's get to our talk with Brother Richard.

um and we were founded um within the Franciscan tradition round about fifteen twenty five and the idea was to balance contemplative living with um active service of our brothers and sisters. So For example, um, the group of us that are here in Ireland, because that's where I'm speaking to you from, we would work uh with the homeless, we work with the dying, uh, with those in prison, um, with also

kind of parishes, parish work, um general kind of pastoral outreach. And for myself, most of the work that I've been doing over the last uh fifteen, sixteen years or so has been sharing our contemplative tradition with those who would like to learn the Franciscan meditative path. So I belong to that group that was founded by Saint Francis of Assisi. Most people know him as the the animal man or the birds man, but but the saint who was

uh very connected with nature and with the natural world. Uh he lived from eleven eighty one to twelve twenty six. And when he died he left a an order behind him of of brothers, um also sisters, uh women dedicated to the gospel of Christ and to the contemplative path.

and uh and also many, many um laymen and women who had decided to to try and renew their living of Christian faith um through his principles of simplicity, uh joy, peace, etcetera. So That tradition stretches all the way back to then and then today it's it's incarnated in the various ways that I've I've mentioned.

And that in turn is built on the great um Jewish mystical tradition that goes back to Abraham. So you're you're dealing with a tradition of about, you know, somewhere between four and five thousand years. And I suppose over over that amount of time uh various practitioners, teachers, holy men and women along the way have encountered the other in in many, many ways, uh and and have also

you know, written about it and thought about it and and and encountered it and and communicated with it. So uh in in that sense, um there's a lot of richness that I think a lot of the Western world nowadays is is pretty much unaware of. Uh and so one of the uh main thrusts of the work of the Capuchins is is to make that that tradition wider, uh wider kno known and and and uh to open up the doors of it to to everybody who is interested.

when in fact the entire scientific tradition arose m uh, you know, and and was nourished uh very strongly by um the Christian church, particularly in in in the Middle Ages. And so one of the things that that that disappears very quickly is the subtlety of expression that was present within the tr in the tradition whenever

um the sort of spiritual realm was was spoken of. And uh because of that you tend to have this a very black and white division um appearing uh in later Christianity, particularly Christianity of the the eighteen hundreds, nineteen hundreds, which sort of names everything that is not us as either uh angels or demons uh straight away.

Uh whereas if you go back to um early Christian thought and even into right up to the sort of um high middle ages fifteen hundreds, sixteen hundreds, there was a very, very very great understanding of a subtlety, a kind of a ladder of being. um of which humanity was was a part and a very important part, but it was understood that there was almost an infinitude of steps.

on the ladder of consciousness, uh ranging from what we would call um insensible matter, y uh right the way up to to um to divine consciousness itself.

and that this was part of the richness of creation and that there were many, many steps along the way um that included uh everything from yes, th the the the the angelic of of which the demonic is a fallen part and and then uh within that the various orders of angels, right the way down to the various forms of of discarnate spirits and even what would later I suppose be seen as sort of elemental ideas.

or elemental consciousness. And within within the the um the latter tradition there was also the understanding of the kind of anima mundi as well, the sort of um uh world soul, the idea that in some way, shape or form all of this consciousness

was able to communicate in various ways, um, and that for those who trained themselves in more contemplative ways, it was possible to come into contact uh in in a very real way with this. Because of course the Christian tradition basically teaches That because of the fall, because of the brokenness of the fall in humanity, one of the things that has happened is our ability to communicate with

creation has is is fundamentally broken. And so we are we are people who are sort of outside the the the discourse that's taking place. between all of these various realms. Uh and and so um when we do come into contact with it it tends to be at moments of of quite high emotion or uh tragedy or or um elation or or or wonder and awe with regard to nature. And and in some way, shape or form in these high or peak experiences, peak moments

that's when we begin to be aware of the oneness of creation in its relationship with the divine. But most of the time we're outside the conversation. We're in we're in another room sort of listening through the wall almost. And so because of that uh our understanding of what's going on and of the various levels and and uh multiplicity of forms that this dialogue is taking place in is quite mixed up to say the least.

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And so uh I mean Saint Augustine, for example, one of the the great fathers of the early church, um, speaks of God having as having written two books, the Book of Scripture and the Book of Creation. And that both of these are valid expressions of of knowledge and wisdom and love and that the divine can be discerned through both. And in fact that it's the duty of humankind to work to understand both as fully as possible.

um particularly by by listening and by cultivating the ability to listen to the different levels of creation and and the different voices that speak through it.

various aspects of the other, as you put it, um, that maybe at times disconcert them or or upset them. Um and so when when we would be called into those situations,

it we go in with the subtlety of knowledge to know that it's not just necessarily a demonic expression um that that you're automatically going into. And quite often it's a mix of things. So you'll find in In one situation, um you could have everything from, you know, psychological disturbance right the way up to um manifestation of a discarnate entity and and sometimes uh a long and and and um

uh subtle process of discernment is necessary to kind of unpick all of the threads of these things when it's when it's going on. So the kind of uh ghost hunter show where somebody walks in and immediately says, Oh, it's a demon, or immediately says you know, uh this house is haunted or whatever, is um the complete opposite to the approach we would take. So uh uh th the friar who who taught me, I suppose going going back to the way I was kind of trained into it,

um for whatever reason, uh he he saw some potential in me with with regard to this and uh began to sort of um um uh bring me out and and and uh apprentice me to this to some extent. But I mean his first comment to us was, you know, Ninety percent of cases it turns turns out to be um physical circumstances that the people are unaware of. Um and and most of that tends to be things like, you know, mice in the walls or bad heating pipes or or whatever. So you start with that.

You always start with that and then you begin slowly and surely to to gather information. And as you gather the information, then things become very clear. uh for example his case, the c the case that sort of started him off, just to give you an example of this, uh was uh he was called out to um two little old ladies who were who were living in a in a house together, two sisters And the reason he was called out was because they said things were going missing all of the time in the house.

And he was convinced this was just probably, you know, the beginnings of old age, you know, uh um the beginnings of of uh that wonderful

time in life when we begin to put things down and forget where we've put them. Um so uh he he went out and visited with them and of course they were delighted to have uh the friar come to visit and they had made tea, etcetera. And as he was sitting at the kitchen table They were telling him how small items were going missing around the house and that they would turn up in unusual places and he was

you know, calmly putting this down to the the the onset of old age, and then suddenly the the teapot on the table got up and poured two cups of tea by itself and sat down again. And one of the ladies turned around and said to him, See, this is what we're talking about. This keeps happening. Wow. Uh at which point he decided he needed uh to go back and call in his own his own master or teacher.

uh but the the the slow um work on that was the discernment as to whether or not it was a case of I suppose what we would call psychokinetic tension between the two ladies. was there the presence of a discarnate entity? Once it's a discarnate entity, then is it um, you know, human in origin? Is it natural in origin? Is it um

supernatural as in angelic or demonic. And all of those things had to be had to be looked at slowly but surely. And in the end his feeling was that it was a mixture of of the tension between the two ladies plus some form of discarnate entity that was there. Um and so uh what Hollywood would kind of go with in terms of, you know, uh shouting and and and roaring clergy going in and and and um sort of uh banishing uh you know banishing demons immediately.

uh was actually more a kind of a series of appointments with them that was to do with counseling, resolving tension, you know, praying and blessing the house, uh quietening the anxieties that were there. And slowly over time the thing just faded away.

can happen with men as well. Uh I've dealt with a number of cases of I suppose classic poltergeist um stuff. Um but again uh we within our tradition we would say that that th this is not to be met with in terms of um direct exorcism per se, but actually it's more to do with kind of counselling the individual, resolving the psychological tensions.

Yes, blessings and prayers can be can be um offered as well, which are very often extremely effective, but usually, usually the most important thing is actually finding the teenager that needs to be listened to and allowing them to to talk. And and once that happens, very often the pressure goes away and when the pressure goes away the phenomena ceases.

So uh again over time it's it's just the discovery of what you're actually dealing with, as opposed to the poltergeist like symptoms that can presage the beginning of of a more um demonic event but but that tends to build up over a series of years.

Uh the father had actually left the house. He couldn't take the manifestations anymore. Um the mother and daughter were still there. Daughter was about fourteen, fifteen. She was actually really happy about the manifestations. She was getting knockings and bangings and she was communicating with whatever this was. uh through the classic, you know, one knock for yes, two knocks for no sort of idea, um, which had become a great

sort of skill to show off to her friends. She would bring her friends into the into the house and terrify them by talking to this thing, whatever it was, kind of knocking back and forth. The father had had an experience where he was walking up the stairs of the house and had seen a young boy Uh standing on the stairs looking at him. Um and that was enough for the dad. The dad uh had left the house at that point and was living with his got gone back to live with his mother.

uh wanted his wife and daughter to come with him, but they they wouldn't. And it was the mother who asked me to come in to uh to see could anything be done about this. So I went and visited the house. house was fine, there was no kind of problems or difficulties on on first noticing.

the daughter was there, so I asked her to demonstrate to me what was going on and she did. She spoke to the um to the spirit and uh again the words bangings back from the attic, yes and no, and various pieces of of um information that you would ask for.

Um I asked, could I speak to it? And um she asked and we got a very definite no, didn't want to speak to me, so I didn't take um bridge at that, that was okay. And uh in conducting a kind of a long form interview with with the mother she then spoke of the fact that she had had a number of manifestations over the years of waking up and feeling that there was a young man somewhere in the bedroom.

Um she would wake up at night, she wasn't scared by it, wasn't upset by it, just a kind of an awareness that there was a young man there, which eventually began to resolve actually into visible uh visible imagery. So I asked her to describe the young man, and uh she did. It was a very average description of a of a kind of a somebody around you know in their late teens. But what was interesting was she kept saying when I asked her how old he was, she kept saying nineteen. Uh I

was was sort of taken by this. I mean normally people would give an age range, you know, they'd say between twelve and fifteen or whatever, but nineteen was very specific. Um so I waited till the daughter had left the room and I asked the mother then at that stage.

Had there ever been other children? And uh she said, No, there had never been other children, so I said, Okay, so for some reason that was kind of rankling at me and we we prayed for a while together, just general prayers of asking for peace. And I asked her again, you know, I said, Have there ever been any other children? And she said, No. And then she thought for a while and she said, Well, there was a miscarriage.

So I asked when was the miscarriage, and the miscarriage had taken place nineteen years before.

So I asked the the the lady in question, would she be happy if we prayed for the the the the the soul of the the child who had who had been miscarried? um I explained to her that in in our tradition, as far as we would be concerned, any, you know, baby of any age, um that that that that passes um is immediately uh in in the presence of God, is immediately in the presence of love. It wasn't the case of the soul being trapped or lost or anything like that at all.

But what she felt was that it was um that that uh the son, her son in i if if you put it like that, uh was actually coming back to sort of protect the family or to be with the family. And it turned out that there was an undercurrent, uh a very difficult time had been going on between

the mother and father, uh, before this manifestation took place. And there's always this, there's always layer upon layer, and you find that you've to you've to quite often visit a number of times before the full story really appears.

Um because very often it's like people who have an infestation, you know, they want the roaches gone, they want the rats gone, you know, straight away. So you call in the exterminator and that's what you want, but y sometimes the exterminator has to do a little bit of digging to discover well where the food source is or where the you know where are they actually getting in or what's the reason for them.

So as we chatted about it, she became very emotional, as you can imagine, it was a very tough experience to recount and to remember. And we went through a naming ceremony of the baby because the child had never been named. Um so she named the child. and um at that point the daughter had returned, so What I was figuring at that stage was that our our friend had been very much passive and in the background.

until the daughter had begun to manifest puberty and with the explosion of energy that goes with that, in some way, shape or form she was lending energy to him to be able to manifest in a much stronger way. Mm-hmm. So it meant that she would also have to let go of him. Um

And when the when the story was explained and when she talked about it, she was quite happy to do that. So we went through a little ritual of prayer and blessing, and also recognising that, you know, he was part of the family and that he always would be, and they would remember him and honour him and name him from now on.

and uh we also asked him to intercede for peace between the mother and father as well. From that day on they never had any other manifestation and uh uh the family are are all back together and solid in the house and everything is fine and the only thing that happened out of it that uh the lady in question was determined uh was that the

husband would never be told that she had resorted to bringing a monk into the house'cause he wouldn't have been happy about that. So there you go. That was that was that that was the end of the story on that occasion. But again it it's a good illustration of how what might seem to be just a very basic, you know, patriced PK kind of case.

actually has a very, very subtle story of emotion and generations behind it which really needed to be explored, pulled out, counselled, you know, reconciled with before before um uh before it could be laid to rest in any way, shape, or form.

Um and it's it's it's a good it's a good definition. It's that moment of of um of the the human being sort of being in the very corporal existence that we have, and yet at the same time with this aspect of consciousness, awareness, uh an and an ability to sort of to reach further. So I think our entire existence is liminal in that sense. We're also very aware that we're on a chronological journey

we have entered this world and the only definite thing about our life is that there will come a moment when we exit this world, you know. After that, wherever we go, is up to the individual to explore and to find for themselves and and to to to seek the truth of. But I think because of that, one of the things we discover then is that it's when we when we encounter the really liminal moments uh across our life, whether that's seasonal

Emotional, familial, whatever it might be. These seem to be moments where we become much more aware of the spiritual world around us. And I would say also. It tends to be a time where the other becomes more aware of us. And I do think there is an equation somewhere along the way where one feeds off the other. And I think that's that's something that um you know can be uh

a very problematic experience for many people. Um we had one experience recently. Um uh one friar was called into uh a young couple had moved into an old house they were experiencing huge difficulties with regard to since they moved into the house uh with health problems, exhaustion

um, just not getting on, snapping at each other a lot, you know, they put it down to stress, they put it down to work, they did all of those kind of things, but there was just something very negative appearing kind of between them. and it had really uh come about only from the time they'd moved into this this building. Um so eventually they had they had come seeking prayer and uh I had suggested that they would look a little bit maybe into the history of the building.

And it turned out that one of the um people who had lived there before had had you know, there had been very negative experiences with regard to this person who had since died and gone.

But to some extent there was an echo left. There was some kind of impression left. And uh we discovered afterwards that they had actually kept the bed that this person had had had and it was only when they were sleeping in the bed um that they would then wake the following day and experience this huge depression of energy, spinal pain, kidney pain, which is actually one of the big factors we look out for um to see if there's a genuine

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um now I want to be very careful when I'm saying this to people because immediately people can say, Oh that's what it is and you know, sometimes a kidney infection is just a kidney infection, you know. Uh in fact most of the time.

And very often the sort of spiritual can be combined with the physical, but it is something we would look out for, uh a kind of a draw on the kidneys or or or lower lower back pain um and uh consistent that goes with the kind of a low grade depression as well. So we suggested to them that they would get rid of the bed. And just to see, you know, purely in an empirical way, let's do an experiment, get rid of the bed and see how things are.

So the lady in question was all for getting rid of the bed and was delighted to do it and wanted to clear it, but for some reason the guy had become absolutely obsessed with this wooden bed wooden bed frame. It was an antique bed, um wanted to hold on to it, saw the value of it.

um wanted to change every part of it and even went so far as to say that he had changed it um but the symptoms were continuing and we discovered that he hadn't gotten rid of it. So at that point you you're dealing with with kind of a I'd say almost a sort of a parasitic relationship, you know? And very often what can be happening is that something lower in in the sort of lower echelons of of the other, um, to use your your name for it, is effectively leaching energy in order to manifest.

And so you get this this tiredness, exhaustion, worn outness um that can happen. And when people are living very busy lives anyway, as they are today, with very little reflective capacity and very often very little spiritual practice. their sensitivity to what's going on can be quite dull and it takes a long time to notice it.

Um so that case is still ongoing. Um he's still holding on to the bed and she's still saying she wants to move it. Um and our advice to them still is is, you know, sometimes objects need to be let go of or cleared. And uh we have a friar who who will be going in there to to bless the place and and clear it for them hopefully pretty soon.

And also, you know, a huge reverence and respect for for doctors and psychologists and psychiatrists and psychotherapists and all of those people who can help people in these way in in these ways as well. And I mean, normally before we we would really move on something in a in a in a a very um deliberate or dramatic way, we would make sure that all of the medical and psychological possibilities uh have been exhausted first, you know? Mm-hmm.

um when the mother would talk to him about about it he kept speaking about um the black thing, uh the dark thing, the black thing that was in the room. So the mother um would let the child obviously sleep in in in their room instead. He was fine in his room during the day. There was no problem in his room during the day. He'd be all around the house during the day.

But he he would as nighttime was getting nearer he would be getting more and more scared, more and more aware of it just would not go to bed. So, um again they they consulted their doctor, they consulted, you know, the doc the the doctor suggested it was to do with, you know, moving house and and um you know, the child would settle down in time. Um

The grandmother, you know, it's always good to listen to grandmothers. They tend to know an awful lot, but the grandmother was a little unsure of of of what was going on and decided on one occasion when she was babysitting that she would actually stay in the room. Um, so she stayed in the room. Uh the child was quite happy to sleep because Granny was now staying in the room. There was no problem with that. And um halfway through the night she woke up.

and she saw something that looked like like a black uh ink cloud kind of pouring down the corner of of the room over where the baby's uh cot uh crib, as you'd say, uh uh it was. So uh she got quite frightened, took the child out of the room, and the child basically was saying, Look, that's

I you know, in in the form of a five year old was basically saying, That's what I was telling you about. Right. So uh again, that's when we got the call through you know, a friend of a friend of a friend suggested that that that we would get a call, so I went out with another one of the brothers. It was one of the first cases I actually dealt with. Went into the house and uh the house felt fine, absolutely perfect, no problem at all. Bright, airy, lovely, beautiful house.

We went upstairs, we went downstairs, we went through bedrooms, went through everything was fine. We did a blessing of the house, everything was fine. And we decided we would sit and um just have a cup of tea with the with the family and they were telling us the story and they were much relieved that we'd come and They they would hope that the blessing would would do what what was necessary. And we'd always start with very minor, you know, blessings and things like that, very simple things.

But as we were sitting there in the room, I noticed that the little boy, he had been watching the television, and uh he had gone rigid and was staring over at the corner of the room. So I went over to him and asked him, you know, Were you okay? And he said, It's here. The black thing is here. So this was the first time it had ever manifested during the day. And he was, I mean, rigid with fear. I I yeah it's it's awful to see a child like that.

So uh I asked him to point where it was and um he pointed it out and myself and the other friar who were there we went over into the corner and the corner was frighteningly cold, just absolutely freezing. and a very, very nasty air of of sort of just um kind of nausea inducing um now again I I saw nothing, uh and either did the other the other gentleman, but children see a lot more than we do.

And we'd usually be guided very strongly by by children if they're if they're in a house where these things are going on because they do tend to to see things much more clearly than we do. So we got there, we we we felt it, we were both you know, validating each other um that this was def very definitely there. And then it seemed to withdraw and it withdrew upwards, up into the wall, and what we discovered was directly above the room where we were sitting having the tea was the child's room.

And we went up to the bedroom and felt it recede up into the attic. So at that point we knew something s more strong uh had to had to take place and um we asked I went back back to the friary. Again I was only in training in this area at that time, but I spoke to one of our older men and he gave us a particular ritual to do.

But he m he gave a lovely um psychological uh teaching as well in in that sense. He said it's very important that the child feels it was part of casting this out, of clearing this out. Yeah.

and we prayed together and we performed the the the the ritual of clearing and you could palpably feel a weight coming off the building at that stage. It was extraordinary. It was it was like you could breathe a little clearer

But as we were doing it, um the thing began to manifest and I saw the child become uh slightly agitated and and and rigid again. So we spoke to him and we said, Look, while one of us was doing the ritual, uh, in in a kind of a whispered way, in in the corner, a quiet way in the corner, we asked the child to um uh to to count to five um because five was important. He was five, he knew how to count to five, so to count to five and to blow into the corner and to blow this away.

Uh while he was d doing this and blowing furiously as as children do, um uh you know, uh a good a good happy birthday blow uh into the into the corner, we finished the ritual and the thing was was bound, it was gone at that stage. Um so he was happy and he slept in the room from then on, that was no problem. But the one thing we were also advised was to make sure that the um that there was no space in the house.

that had been left behind from from what had gone on before. And what we discovered afterwards was there was a an attic space above that room that had not been gone into by the family since they had come into the house. They were slowly renovating the house. And when they came got into the house, into that area they discovered a whole lot of um

children's clothes and books and and a lot lots of kind of stuff that seemed to have been left behind by the previous people. When they investigated it further with neighbors, they discovered that the neighbors had felt that there was a a daughter with the previous incumbents of the house, who had been kept a virtual prisoner in the attic by her by by the parents. For whatever reason, I don't know. We couldn't we could never find out what was going on.

Uh, but the neighbors felt that there was something abusive going on. So whether that was a connection to what was going on, whether it was something else, I don't know. I can't I can't say for for certain. But it was interesting that there was a story and there was a space directly above the room where this thing was

appearing or manifesting. Right. But they they never had a problem with it again. And what was really important was that the the little boy felt that that he had been part of it and that he had, you know, power over it as well.

Yeah, when you were doing these rituals and this is just pure curiosity on my part. Sure. Are they in Latin?

uh uh so as to retain their purity. And I and by that I mean that there's no mistakes put into them or things like that. You know, a dead language is a very pure thing. Um it doesn't change. Uh and and so um Uh and and also it can be to try and make sure that there isn't I suppose an increase in kind of emotionalism by the people who are around because they don't know what's being said. Um and and so it's also a way of testing what's going on.

So if you're testing something in Latin and you get a reaction from somebody who doesn't know Latin, um it can be a real factor in determining whether or not something is actually present.

Uh and this was the the actual missionary practice of the church. That that that you know, all that was that was good or had good elements in it was to be absorbed because anything good in the Christian understanding, has its origin in the good, in the divine, in God. So, you know, sacred places um became places of of of worship and, you know, churches were built there instead.

you know, the holy trees, the holy wells, all of those things uh were were sort of integrated within the within the practice. And and also a great reverence and respect for the ancestors and for and for the spirits would have been the spirits of the land would have been would have been very present as well.

So um for example just recently uh I've I've recently moved back to Dublin. We we move every couple of years to different communities, but I was for three years in in Donegal, which is in the northwest uh of of um of the country, very wild kind of a place. Uh many locations in the area around us were used for for Game of Thrones. So if people want to picture it in their head, that's what they can that's what they can picture. Um very wild kind of countryside.

But a beautiful place and a place that that I would say nature and humanity and faith and spirituality and mythology are all wrapped up in in the ordinary and the everyday up there. So on our land, for example, the land of the the the friary there uh we we've uh the beautiful gift of of being guardian of um uh about 160 acres of of pristine national forest and and coastland, which we use as a retreat center, which is open to the public. Anybody can go and stay there.

But on the land there are a number of fairy sites. We have a v a a very ancient uh fairy hill or fairy castle that's that's on the this on the site there. And when I went up there first, um

Coming as I did from Dublin I said to one of the locals, you know, I was introduced to the place and they showed me the the fairy the fairy hill. It's beautiful um it's an extraordinary hill that just rises up from this flat piece of land with these three or four beautiful big quartz rocks that jut out from it.

And um as I asked them, you know, when they told me this is the fairy hill, I said, uh Do they still you know, do people still around here, would they still, you know, deal with the fairies or or or be aware of the fairy or believe in the fairies? And The man who was showing me around the land looked at me and said, Oh no, no, no, nobody believes in the fairies. I said, Right, that's okay. He said we don't have to believe in them, they're there.

So I said, Okay. That was that was me told. Um and uh most of the people in the area would have wood burning stoves within the the house, you know. Um the house the heating would would most of them would be kind of wood burning. And so when a tree falls anywhere, um, there is a scurry uh of people to get the the wood for their

They're they're they're they're stoves. Um and whenever a tree would fall in our land within within a day we'd have people knocking on the door to say, you know, would it be possible? And we'd always say yes, we always shared the the wood. But there was a storm on one particular night and there were three beautiful beech trees that grew right out of the top of this this fairy fairy fort, and one of the beech trees was struck by lightning and fell. And that fell three years ago.

And no one has touched a piece of wood from that from that from that. It's it's still lying there, just decaying away into the field. Wow. Um and the people are all around who would come for any other piece of wood, but they won't touch that because that came from the fairy fort. That belongs to them.

So it's it's it's alive, it's under the surface and I would say a lot of the kind of um scholars and and and sort of fairy tourists and and and I don't mean this in any um insulting way, but the sort of more uh new age understanding of it, when people come looking for these things, they'll very often be sent by the locals to the wrong place.

Um because the locals would say we're not having them upset them because if they upset them it'll come back on us. Right. So you've kind of got to be there for a while before they begin to understand the relationship of the land. We had one gentleman who was an extraordinary man. He he looked after a lot of the forestry and grounds for us and he would have really worked with the old ways uh in in the forest. And you know, a strong man in his Catholic faith.

but had no problem combining that with all of the the other uh um uh the other understanding of of the land as something alive and living and active. Uh and on one occasion we had um uh a guy coming to take down some some trees for us because they were beginning to lean into electric wires and we needed to to trim the trees.

So the gentleman came from the the big industrial company with all of his equipment and the equipment wasn't working properly and he was getting more and more angry and he was getting angry with his staff and you know, the trees weren't coming down and eventually our uh groundsman, this gentleman I was telling you about, came to war came to him and put his hand on his shoulder and said, No more.

The land will take blood from you today if you keep going the way you are. So the gentleman didn't know what to do, and um our grandsman said to him You can come back tomorrow, but it's not happening today. The trees don't want to come down today. So the man in great frustration went back to his own place and uh took a chainsaw to a hedge in his in his own garden and um th the chainsaw hopped back and and took a gash out of his out of his shoulder

He was fine, thankfully, but you know, ha th the gash was was there. And the following day he came back bandaged to our place to continue the job. And our groundsman came towards them and had a look at the wound and said, That's fine now, the trees have had their blood, they'll come down.

And the trees came down. No problem at all that day. So uh you know, it's all there. It's all there. Where I think one of the great things we we we forget, which maybe places like Ireland still hold on to to a large extent, is the union between the land and the people, and the understanding that you know, we're just guardians of it for a little while and then the next generations go on, but there are much older and more ancient beings.

that have a role of guardianship as well and it it's it's uh it's important to pay them the respect and sort of keep out of their way.

um, but we're also aware of the the the spirits of the land. And that goes back even to, you know, high Catholic theology, the the of of the scholastics, people like Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, um um, you know, some of the the great the great uh philosophers and and and and thinkers would have said that, you know, every species, every individual um plant or animal has its its guardian, its guardian spirit, its guardian angel.

and that these you know, that there is a ladder or a hierarchy, um, ranging from, you know, the great high angels that we we we think of um from from scripture right the way down to the the the spirits of the land. and that all of these are in a continuum of um sustaining, preserving, renewing, uh, creation, you know, at at the the behest of the divine.

And so uh where we run into trouble is either we don't respect them or we begin to connect with the more capricious or or or uh kind of trickster like um entities uh which are very often there, I think, simply to teach us to be humble um and to recognise that there is a lot that we we don't know about.

So that's again another element that that that that is there. Um but yeah, in in certainly there are there are places still um in in Ireland like Donegal, like some of the places in in in the West and and down in the very southwest, where this would be very alive and not just kind of traditions or stories that are spoken of, but it would be, you know part and parcel of of the the present day to day reality.

Um and that that E N is very important in that it it's what it's teaching is that the divine is present in everything that exists, in every aspect of nature, through divine attention, holding everything in being. and that everything is a communicative word of the divine, so reality itself is sacramental, but at the same time the divine transcends and is beyond its its creation.

Whereas pantheism would say that nature itself is the divine. So panentheism says that then actually nature exists within, subsists within and is a communicative a word and a place of of contact and connection with, but at the same time, um in in Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism we would say there is um that the divine is also beyond creation again um in its in its origination and in its in its uh personality.

Science versus religion, it's black versus white, it's good versus bad, it's all of those kind of ideas. Whereas um while all of those distinctions exist on a very practical basic level, there is still an understand there's always a place where these things overlap. There's always a place where these things connect. It's always a place where these things are are in in flow or in flux with each other.

Um so that was known as canonization by Vox Populi, uh by the voice of the people. In other words, the the the the the affirmation of the community, a kind of a we knew him, we knew her, you know, and we're happy to to seek

intercession through them. Right. And so those individuals then over time would have been written into what we would call the canon, the canon of the saints, uh the the the the um the record of of of official saints. And up to about the year one thousand the general way in which someone was declared a saint was was that way, uh whether in the Eastern or Western Church.

After round about the year uh I mean for for for rough rounding up reasons, uh after the year one thousand, a process of investigation began to be put in place. so as to sort of make sure that someone actually had um, I suppose, lived up to the the the high standard of of of life that one would expect of someone who's going to be venerated as a saint.

um and things began to be more centralized uh and uh as a result of that there was the kind of process of canonization. So nowadays if someone was to be declared a saint, uh while they might be venerated locally for them to be venerated by as as a saint by the sort of universal church, the church throughout the world.

um it would only be after a process of of investigation. So the church would differentiate between those who were canonized Vox Populi, which would be many of the Celtic saints, because they existed in that age, in that era, uh and those later who would have been canonized by process of canonization, which is a very formal process of people arguing for and against the person.

In Ireland particularly, um, there were great ceremonies in at home and i in houses to prepare for the visit of the dead. The dead would visit that night. It was expected that they would visit and the house had to be cleaned and the people would be ready for them and all of that and it was a

a time when the ancestors would come back to sort of check on the land and check on the people. And then you had um the feast of All Hallows itself, so All Hallows Eve precedes it, like Christmas Eve precedes Christmas Day, Um and on on All Hallows, the Feast of All Saints, it wasn't just the canonized saints who were venerated, but it was all the great and the good, all those folk saints, as you would say, uh the holy ones, the good ones, th the the people who had um

uh we had known in life and esteemed as as good people who had done their best. Um whether they ha had um particular charismatic gifts that would have been seen, you know, in very special ways, or whether they just lived lives of

of you know, compassion and solidity of of faith, hope, love, um, they're the ones who are venerated on that day, the feast of all saints. Um one of an old priest I knew used to say it was the feast of the common or garden saint, you know, as opposed to uh as opposed to the canonized as such.

And then the rest of the month of November, the following day is all souls, in which we would remember uh those who are what we would say uh in in Via, they are still on the way. So they are those who have died but are still going through spiritual purification.

and that would be purgatorial souls. And and and actually in the tradition that we would belong to, a a a ghost proper in the sense of um a sentient apparition of a deceased person would be seen as a purgatorial soul, someone who is uh appearing or being allowed to appear or manifest. so as to uh seek the spiritual assistance of the living, so as to be able to move on further um through our prayer.

um and they are also allowed to assist the living um so there is a uh um a mutual service of the living uh and the dead one one you know towards each other so that each can accomplish it their end perfectly. And then the rest of the month is spent remembering the dead and also meditating on one's own death, so that's that's the month of November. So the folk saints would fit very strongly into that.

So I mean th the the the Catholic and Orthodox traditions would see Scripture as, yes, the revealed and divine word of God, but a word that is revealed through many genres within that that compendium of literature that we call the Bible. uh which is everything from myth to to song, to um proverb, to wisdom literature, to historical description and and literal historical work.

And again there would have been the subtle understanding that all scripture had a number of meanings within it, which would have included not just the literal interpretation but mystical interpretation. So the early church would not have seen the Bible as a a document that was meant to explain history or science. but a document that was meant to inspire um you know, primarily a growth in relationship with the divine.

and then after that, um, you know, the the various other uh elements within within the word would be present. So I think one of the things that maybe got got lost within the Protestant Reformation and many good things came out of the Protestant Reformation including the reform of the Catholic Church. Absolutely. Um but but uh uh you know w one of the things that was maybe lost was this understanding of um the unitive experience of humanity with creation, with nature, etcetera.

um and with the kind of more subtle understanding of the levels of spiritual um spiritual being uh that that that that are present. What's interesting I think is that if you look at the history of spirituality, religion, etc. across uh Europe and into the States is that a lot of that begins to be looked for, sought for and even replicated in the various occultic movements within uh Western occultism. So things like Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, etc etc. To some extent at least.

i is is the replication or the seeking of both the ritual life and the mystical life that that maybe had gone missing post Reformation.

So the divine creates ex nihilo out of nothing. Um uh in other words, all that is necessary for the divine to create is for the divine to want to create. Um whereas a human being creates in a contingent manner. Um in other words, we can only create through what we have seen and and um uh perceived or understood and we um mix that up again.

So in that sense, you know, the person who invents a dragon is is just inventing a big lizard. You know, the person who invents a unicorn is is is taking a horse and putting a horn on it, etcetera. Uh one of the great uh modern or s somewhat modern philosophers around this would have been um people like uh C. S. Lewis, Tolkien, etcetera.

uh who would really have sp spoken a lot about the philosophy of the of the imagination as a as a place of encounter with the divine and an encounter with the other. So for example, when Tolkien was asked, um, well how can you as a devout Christian write about elves?

His response was well that elves must exist at least in the mind of God already as a potential idea, because otherwise Tolkien would be having an idea that God hadn't had, in which case Tolkien's mind would have been greater than God. So therefore his response was elves exist at least in the divine mind already. So uh

And again, that's imputing consciousness and awareness on something that may experience consciousness and awareness in a way totally different to us. ha one of the the things that the tradition teaches and has taught is that very often elements within the person's own mind will be used to construct a reality. so that the uh entity intelligence is able to communicate with the person.

And that's where discernment comes in the idea of the person recognising that the vision, the experience may not necessarily be what it is manifesting as. And so we would have, for example, in in our own work very, very strong rules of discernment around never trusting what one sees with one's eyes. uh because you are never entirely certain that what is being presented to you is actually the truth.

It may be presented to you in such a way as for example in a compassionate way. So let's let's imagine a compassionate other, a compassionate great intelligence that decides to manifest um in a way that is um suitable for a person to be able to interact with. So a great angelic being might decide to manifest as a as a human being or even as an animal so as to uh give the message but without terrifying the recipient, because if we were to see the being in its essence, we would be, you know.

Scared stiff, for example, or or or lose consciousness or whatever it might be. But the same applies to the other side. So if we were to speak of maybe a um an intelligence that isn't compassionate. uh, you know, there is the possibility of deceit by apparition uh of something that that appears to be um good when it is not in fact good. I mean, you know, the the classic scripture for that is that, you know, that the

the the the devil can appear as an angel of light, you know, in in in that sense. So again there was always, always, always the spiritual lesson taught that you do not trust your senses with regard to this. you trust instead inner intuition, uh, inner awareness and working through spiritual authority. So in in for example, in all of those cases that I spoke about where

myself or other friars went to these places. We're we're not go I'm not going as as as Richard into those places because I could be squashed flat as Richard. My human intelligence, my human awareness is not necessarily able to to encounter those things and and and understand them or or be present to them or and especially tell them what to do, you know.

Instead there is the understanding that you are going in with the spiritual authority of the tradition and in the name of the divine. Um and it's only in using that authority or in using that particular empowerment or grace that that um that there is any success in in working with these things. And I think that's why the great spiritual masters have always taught and in not just in the Christian tradition in fact, but in other traditions as well.

uh that you must be very, very careful in dealing with any of these things because quite often the y your own imagination is the source book they are using to be able to create what they want you to see.

And that can be very, very and and usually it's it's renowned for its simplicity, um more than anything else. You take something like the commandments of Christ, for example, speaking from my own tradition, um, you know, th they are they are very simple and they encourage great compassion and mercy and and you know love, essentially.

The more complicated and the more detailed um messages become. What there are two things one needs to be very careful of. The first is if you are dealing with an intelligence far beyond your own, you may be simply just not understanding it properly, number one. Number two, um, it may be using elements of your imagination and psyche to uh try and get a message across.

And indeed its purposes may be far beyond what the information is. So for example, Um suppose a prophecy is given, um, or information is given about the future, and then the person stakes everything on that and this doesn't actually happen.

Uh well how do you know that whether or not the intelligence was out number one, just to fool you and to make a fool of you, or number two, from a spiritual point of view, thought you needed humility and decided that this was the best way to encourage humility? And that's why messages, prophecies, private revelations, etcetera, all of those sort of things. Um what we would say within the church's understanding is that you examine these things with reference to dogma.

And if they don't stand up, if they're not in alignment with those basic truths, then they are let go of. Um and if they are in alignment, then fine, you can you can look at them, you can be be aware of them, but you don't stake your life on them. Instead you turn towards the basic end of things. And the one thing to watch out for is anything that tries to make a guru out of you.

Um, because if you become uh the guru, the prophet, the the the the cult leader, whatever it might be, the first thing that happens usually is that the person ends up descending into some kind of of um let's let's be let's be nice about it and and and say, you know, kind of a self centered existence. Um and that becomes a very, very dangerous thing.

Instead I suppose in in in our tradition we would say that that it's not the guru you're looking for, it's the elder. And the elder in that sense is someone who says, You know, I'm just walking the same path as you. I've maybe just started a little earlier. And so I'm a few steps further along. But I'm I'm someone who's struggling every day and you're someone that's struggling every day. Now let's struggle together. Um and that's that's eldership in in the fullest sense.

But I again I I think it's it's something that also speaks back into what we were talking about with regard to the other, which is um the most important thing for the the practitioner of any of this or anybody who's interested in this or investigating any of this is to be really, really self reflective and self aware. because very often what you are putting out there as what you are looking for or hoping for, it will reward you with a certain amount of that.

so as to to hook you in. Um and then um after that then things become difficult if the person doesn't preserve a kind of an earthed groundedness along the way.

that the the form that a spiritual entity chooses is is the form of a sphere. uh because it is seen as as the perfect geometric shape and as the as the the um the simplest of of um uh of manifest of of um geometric manifestations. And so there are lots of descriptions within the the the literature. Um that that uh before manifestation as a being that we would recognize, you know, be it um angelic or or any other f any other kind of form, the the being will first make itself present or noticed.

as an orb of light. And I think that's that that's something that maybe speaks directly to some of the phenomena that you've been recounting and speaking about.

I couldn't get a pic uh you know, I tried to snap a picture but But I I was able to witness this They that close to me, come over my shoulder and and and and this is in an area we've where we've had a a number of of strange incidents, including seeing o other lights, other nights.

the kind of craziness of it all. Um, there's an old proverb that goes right the way back to the early stages of monastic life, which is nothing makes the devil run away faster than laughter. And it's it's it's simply because that idea of we can end up taking ourselves and our theories and all of those kind of things extremely seriously. And underneath it all is actually the simple sentence, I don't know.

um, you know, uh you under we we can have all of the systems of knowledge and all of all of the the traditions and all of the um tools of investigation and all of the methodologies of science and all of those things. And yet underneath it all, and probably to some extent, I would believe the main reason we are even allowed to encounter the manifestations of many of these things is is for us

to to assume a kind of a more humble presence within this this universe, within this creation, and to be able to say, you know, I don't know. There there are things out there that are bigger and beyond. Um and that for some people can bring a darkness, uh n as I say, not necessarily evil, but a darkness in terms of just um

almost a kind of a low grade depression or or a an anxiety that that that just eats away at people. Um and I think it's very important that that people have good community, good family, and that if they notice that this is taking them away from those things, the balance has to be changed there and then straight away. And I think one of the things that a good community um and maybe maybe the podcast community is one of these places that can do that, um, is is where if people notice this.

in individuals, you know, to call them on it, to to sort of say, you know, I'm getting worried about you. Uh maybe you're going a little too far in by yourself. But I think uh particularly where someone is taking themselves over seriously, um, there really has to come a moment of just relaxation, laughter, and being involved in things other than this is extremely important, you know. There are too many people have lost

friends and families and even sanity by by getting uh by following you know following the lights, you know, don't follow the lights across the moors. You know, that's that that's that's the the most basic piece of folk advice there is, you know, notice them, they're part of the place.

Um if you have communication with them, there were basic rules that you were taught, you know, and one of those things was don't eat what they have to offer, don't believe what they have to say, and don't follow them across the moors. uh because i it it's it's into a space that's not necessarily for us or that we're not capable of dealing with at least at this level of of our being. Um and so I think uh, you know, And earthiness is extremely important when dealing with the heavenly.

You know, there there's a certain sense of the fairy gold about all this. They will always give you just enough to pull you in, but never enough to satisfy you. And I think that's something you just have to accept from the outset with this this particular end of things. And if you know that that's what it is.

um then there's there's um a kind of a mutual respect, shall we say. And that's that's sort of the way to go with it. It's it's like the guys in Donegal saying, you know, we don't believe in them because we don't have to believe in them. They're simply there. And in that sense it's it's uh it's a kind of a mutual respect or mutual regard. But I think what you're saying about taking breaks is extremely important.

And so we don't see the light of our own being. Um, and that part of the sort of peak experience that human beings speak of from time to time. includes this awareness of the light of our own being. The American mystic and and monk Thomas Merton, I'm sure you've heard of Thomas Merton. Merton, um his famous one of his most famous experiences

was uh this moment of revelation of seeing human beings as they actually are, as opposed to the way we perceive them. And he saw them as great beings of light, great beings of love, and his his um his response to it all was was to say that that if we if we actually saw each other as we are, we'd get nothing done because we'd simply be bowing down to each other all of the time.

So from from the from the the power quote at the start there, it's it's it's uh absolutely commensurate with everything that I've been that I've been saying.

doing the work and and what will be asked of you later um in terms of inviting th those sort of things in. But I think every country, every group of people, particularly those I mean, obviously the native communities, the indigenous peoples of of of the Americas would have had their own traditions, but the traditions you're speaking of which would have been, I suppose, European imports. They would have come in through

uh the Germans, the Dutch, all of all of those various groups would be very, very similar to what what is still in Europe to this day. Um

you know, uh in Ireland, for example, they would have been referred to as the sharp men or the sharp women, and they were the ones who would were were known to have the the the cure, um, was the way it was put. And Some of these would would follow down in families or would be um taught um would be passed on from fathers to sons, the old idea of the seventh son of a seventh son having had the gift to to remove um

uh various d it depended on the family, but I mean you'd have some families but had had the gift to remove um uh worms, parasites, they'd have had others that could stop bleeding, etc. Um And then within the women's tradition particularly there would have been a huge amount around uh midwifery particularly and the kind of healing and cures that went with that. My own great grandmother on my mother's side was was a sharp woman as she was known and she was brought in for uh births and deaths.

Um uh because she th they would have be seen as people who again, liminal guarded the gates. They they were they were the people who saw you into the world and the people who saw you out of the world, um and made sure that that the the coming in and the going out went went well.

And they would have had all of those kind of um ritual customs like when the windows were to be opened, when the doors were to be closed, when you covered mirrors, when you uh lit candles when salt was spread in the gr on the ground and all of these kind of rituals, which would all have been combined with with Christian prayers, and again um would have been passed down through through the generations, you know.

You know, um if you have someone who tells you perform this particular ritual and your leg will get better and it does, people will repeat that. If it doesn't, th they get rid of it very quickly and very often they get rid of the person who told them uh as as well.

So it in that sense there is a huge, huge deposit of wisdom and and you know, every so often, as I'm sure you've seen as well, there are all of these lovely articles that say, Oh, that particular custom works because we examined it scientifically and it does A, B, C, or D.

Um but this is where intentionality comes about. And I think the sharp men and women or the the the Pow Wow people or the faith healers or whatever. They tend to be people who have learned or have been trained in in the focusing of attention in in a in a very strong and solid way. And sometimes

that focusing of attention I think liberates healing in in a way that that uh maybe uh modern medical science hasn't yet fully caught up with. I mean there's so much work being done on the neurobiology of meditation, for example, at the moment. Um you know, the whole kind of mindfulness revolution and and and all of that within within uh modern science. And um and they're they're having extraordinary um findings around, you know, what simply

breathing, being present, um, you know, minding the moment does to the human brain. And this is what all of the traditions have taught from the from the beginning, you know, everything from Buddhism to Hinduism to Christianity to Judaism, you know, they all it all has these initial practices in common.

And I think the same is true for the for the healing, the healing end of things as well. Um and so we would have had in in Ireland particularly there are all of those kind of folk customs that would have been caught up even within the life of the church. So for example Uh the third of February was was Saint Blaze's Day, who is the patron saint of throat illness, and everybody would go to the church and you have your throat blessed.

uh but you would also take home blessed oil or blessed cloth that would be used then for the healing of throat illness in the in the um in the days to come. And on the feast of Saint Bridget, um the Bridget is one of the great patrons of Ireland and was the patron saint of childbirth and of women in childbirth. So the night before Saint Bridget women would take linen cloths and spread them on the thorn trees, the fairy thorns.

to collect the dew on Saint Bridget's Day, and if the cloths were soaked with the dew, then that was considered a blessing from Saint Bridget, and those clots would be wound around the heads um and the bodies of women as they were giving birth to relieve their pain.

And then you would have had uh the customs like I was saying for Halloween, for example, where the house had to be cleaned and bread and salt were left out for the the ancestors to come and to to sit and to bless, um, and various other customs along the way, but they would all have been church endorsed.

um and seen as a way of of really connecting with the um the day to day life of the people. You would have had the Ember days, for example, where processions took place around the land and the land was blessed and reconsecrated and cleared of any um negative spirits, etcetera, um, so that the land could produce its crops properly and and um uh be enriched and renewed. Um there were blessings against storms. The ringing of

of church bells, for example, on New Year's Eve is not for for to mark a a a calendar date or a chronological date. It goes back to the idea of the ringing of a bell as an exorcism. Um and the idea was you were casting out um all of the darkness that had been present in the previous year so you could start afresh and start anew.

So all of these things surround us and they still go on. I mean simple things like people throwing salt over their shoulders and all of those kind of things. They they go back to very ancient Christian Christian customs. And and and those customs may very well have been sanctified customs that that that came from earlier days and that were absorbed and seen as being perfectly good.

Um and so uh you know, th those things continue to be to be handed down. You know, one one of the tests, for example, for for a faith healer in Ireland, uh, was um when a uh uh a boy was was considered to be someone who who may have had the gift um they would wait until puberty, uh again, a liminal time, um, and one of the tests was an earthworm would be placed on the on the boy's hand.

And if the earthworm riggered died uh there and then, uh the person was considered to have the the the the power, whatever the energy was that was coming from the person's hand was you know that had had killed the worm. And that goes back to the idea that most sicknesses or illnesses were seen, at least in in the early days, as being a worm. You know, there was something had gotten into you um from somewhere else.

So the idea of the the boy's hand being able to kill the worm. Now, I'm quite sure any poor earthworm placed in a boy's hand long enough is going to die anyway. But but it was it was the idea that that in some way um

what they were observing would would also be present internally as well when the when the the boy would kind of put his hands on the on the the sick person or the the sick area. But there were all kinds of rules for it. You know, I I I remember even even uh Uh my own grandmother um talking about um, you know, the the people you put your hands on and the people you didn't, um you know, because th the the if illnesses had gone past a certain point.

it was considered even dangerous for the healer to put their hands on them, um, because at that stage the illness could could transfer to the healer or could um uh could sort of suck the energy out of the healer. Um and uh so all of those things were there in the ways of discerning it. You know, there were windows in which these things could be worked on and then after that it was a case of well, you just pray for them now, that's all you can do, you know.

uh a place getting imprinted through through just um huge emotion or huge drama taking place in in in a situation. And and yeah, I mean that goes back to it's it's a very, very ancient shamanic practice, isn't it, that idea of of being able to draw draw out what is uh what is negative and and uh you know whether whether sort of to

uh to suck it or to or to draw it out with the hands or whatever and then um to to get rid of it. You know, it has to go somewhere. And that's one of the interesting things. You'll generally find illness in in folklore has an underlying belief in a balance of things. So if it even if it's a case of you not suffering it now, somebody has to suffer it. Somebody will hold it for a while. And that's why very often healers

uh were seen to be people who who went through a lot of sickness and tragedy in their own lives. And and that was very often seen as the kind of burden that they would have to bear to be the person who who who was able to sort of draw this stuff off.

uh or the forest, um, was often used uh used to trick people into getting lost. um would be heard kind of um chirping or whistling or laughing, but was often seen as either a big ball of hair or as a a a hairy small man that was sort of running around or or or kind of running into the woods, disappearing. Um so that's the Gruaguk, so that certainly was was present. Um and there were there were ways of of appeasing the Gruaguk, which was certain amounts of the fruit harvest.

would be left aside. Um so you get that whole connection with the apples again, um or with the uh the berries especially. And then you also had what was known as the puka um puck, the famous the famous puck i i idea. comes from the Gaelic Puka, which was a fairy that appeared as either a tall, noble looking man, a goat, a he goat, nasty he goat that would that would chase people, or a hare or

Uh once Halloween came, uh whatever was left, even if the fruit looked beautiful, you left it alone because the puka's breath was on it then at that stage. In other words, they had been reserved it had whatever was left was reserved for the fairies, for the for the for them. Now, there is a real practical reason for that, which is very often they were filled with parasitic worms at that point. Um, so the legend the legend is there. But it but it was very strong and uh

you know, the the the puka was not to be not to be messed with, um, in any way, shape or form. So uh again you have the the hairym figure, the rabbit figure, the hair figure, all of that kind of stuff being um being um seen as as sort of uh manifestations of the wild or manifestations of the land and particularly demanding that certain places and certain um you know, certain parts of the harvest would be kept back or or given given back to the land.

But it it was always you know, the the stories always have a kind of a sting in the tail, you know. Um you you'll receive the information, but it never really does does you good or it it it'll it'll twist in some tricksy way before before the end. Um and again there was that idea of um you know, that you never actually see the true form of the creature. Um the old legend of the hag stone, for example, the the the the the stone with the hole in it

uh carried for protection was was that idea that that you know you needed an instrument of some description to look through so as to kind of pierce the veil to see what this thing really was. Yes. Um and so children would be warned, you know, about never accepting um gifts, never accepting food, never accepting drink. Um in the older stories there was even, you know, not not telling your real name.

uh or or only giving your name if they gave their name first. You know, all of the all of these kind of kind of uh ideas of of being careful of not entering into um uh some kind of of bond with the with the the person concerned. But the Groovuk was certainly known for magic and and the idea of transformation change.

the uh the treasure that you thought you had. Um, you know, so th those those kind of uh uh things would be would be people would need to be very, very careful about. Um or beautiful animals even. The idea of, you know, suddenly discovering you've uh you've a

A beautiful bull in the field that that you never had before, a lovely horse or whatever, these can very often they would be regarded with suspicion because uh you know, y if you didn't know where they came from, then the chances were uh they were something that might have a hidden price to pay.

Or it's moved or something else has been added, you know? Sure. And uh I guess uh my question would be this is sort sort of a remote trading game, right? And it and it feels safer than a direct interaction.

And that it all finished the day that you bled onto it. Yes. Um that that that to my mind was very significant, uh, because the withdrawal of the other party, let's call it that, whatever whatever it was or whatever it is. you know, bleeding over something uh was one of the very ancient ways of marking something as your own, in including land. Um you know, th th again, go back to my story of the the gentleman saying, you know, the trees wanted their blood that day. Right. Um

uh because the guy had been angry in the forest. Um so it was kind of there was sort of a retributive i idea there. So I mean obviously I don't know. I'm only guessing based on on on the the sort of the the the knowledge or the tradition of the stories. But to my mind that may have felt to the other side like you were saying This is all mine now. Um, you know, uh, because I've I've bled over it. I've literally, you know, marked it in some way, shape or form.

uh with with uh and and biological fluids generally um tend to be seen as as things that are are very high in in um uh, presence, spiritual energy, you know, all of all of that kind of idea, particularly obviously blood. I mean, uh you know, it's it's it's all the way through all of the religions and all of the traditions, the idea that that that blood is something extremely sacred and powerful. But I think where where there are those sort of

You know, general offerings, general presencing, but without looking for things to come back. I think it's when people become obsessed with with um with things that that you're then in some way, shape or form giving the other side a kind of a an authority or a power that it shouldn't have. So uh uh one of the one of the the principles that I was certainly trained in was that anything that is given can be welcomed and used, but should always be given away.

Oh uh eventually. Um so in other words, you you don't possess it, um, you simply hold it for a while and give it away, even if that's only giving it back to the land. Right. But eventually it is returned, it's given away, passed on.

You know, th there's a very ancient principle that that says um the difference between prayer and magic is is that that prayer is saying, um, let thy will be done, whereas magic is saying, Let my will be done. And uh I think we get told very quickly, um that that once we start saying let my will be done that that we're we're we're we're in a relationship with something that is far bigger um and and and uh far greater and far older than than uh uh than our will necessarily allows.

the center of the universe. Um we'd an old teacher years ago who used to say that the definition of an adolescent was someone who still believes the sun gets up in the morning because that's when they're awake. Uh an adult is someone who begins to recognise that that um uh creation um loves you and wants you to be part of it um but at the same time if you decide uh to to try and go against it you'll be put in your place fairly quickly.

when we are dealing with these things, I think, uh, taking into account the principles we mentioned earlier, remaining earthed, remaining remaining focused on the human, that is the level we are at, that is what we should be. um and when we do have interactions with the spiritual world or with the other as you would call it um that we do so in a kind of a respectful and at the same time uh discerning discerning way.

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you know opposite insight and then you help me figure out what's what happened. I personally think that it it was somewhat of a uh evil or kind of demonic encounter that happened to me when I was in high school. So I was a senior in high school I was uh on my way home from a date with my girlfriend. I was shopping her off at home. We were in the driveway in my in my car, uh, at her house.

And so we were just kind of talking and chatting and uh just hanging out before uh we said goodbye. And I just got this like overwhelming feeling when I was in the car of uh just there's there's somebody else here but I knew it was just me and my girlfriend. But I just felt like there was something else here. Um and so I kinda looked in my rear view mirror This really old nineteen eighty five BMW that my dad gave me for my first car.

So I looked in the rearview mirror and I saw this dark figure. Dark figure had

there was uh almost not like a sewn shut mouth but just like no mouth at all. And um she was just looking at at me and I turned to my girlfriend who both Christians uh at the time. So I turned to my girlfriend at the time. We're not saying anymore. But I turned to her and I said, um, hey, I know this sounds really weird but I just I'm getting the sense that something weird is uh in my car so we need to get out of my car right now. Okay. Uh that's fine.