Him, I Boris and this is straight talk. I'm about to do a podcast with Anthony Miller. He's the CEO of the Westpac Group, which encompasses a lot of banks. I should make an initial disclosure. The disclosure is that my company Yellow Big Road Group, of which I'm the chairman of Made Shoulder, has a relationship with Westpac. They are a warehouse provided to us in relation to our own product with our global partner, which is Magneta, through a business called Resi Homelands or the Resi product.
So that's a disclosure you need to make.
And I also will happily disclose that I've been maybe forty year customer of Saint George Bank, right back from the days it was building society right through today. It's now sitting under the Westpac Group as still as a bank, but using the Westpac Group's banking license. So that's my disclosure. Other than that I have no relationship with Anthony. I have many a couplications before, but.
In his capacity as a sea of a bank. So look for to this podcast.
It's pretty exciting, pretty cool to actually be able to interview a CEO of one of the four b banks in Australia and from my point of view, one of my favorite banks.
Anthony Miller, well and straight talk.
Mate, thank you thanks for having me.
This is pretty unusually it's a I find it as quite an exciting opportunity to sit in front of a someone who's the CEO of one of the largest banks
in this country. And of course, you know, for our audience, you know, Australian banks are some of the most profitable banks in the world by virtual market capitalization if you're relative to that, and maybe that don't make the biggest profits in the world, but they in a relative sense, they are some of the most profitable banks in the world and definitely some of the highest rated banks in the world.
And you're sitting at the helm of Westpac.
Absolutely and I've been in the role two hundred and sixteen days Mark, so enjoyed every single day so far.
It's pretty amazing.
I understand you come from fairly humble background. Maybe can just tell me where's Anthony Miller come from?
Where we were born?
But sure so I was. I was born in Canberra and for various reasons, we moved around a lot as I grew up. So I lived in Canberra Darwin, Alice Springs, Doubo, Canberra, Brisbane, and I finished high school in Brisbane. My last two
years of high school were in Brisbane. And so often people think I'm a Queenslander, and I suppose two years of high school and five years of UNI sort of formative years, and certainly have a lot of affection for Queensland, but I spent a lot of time outside Queensland growing up.
Under the state of origin rules. That doesn't qualify years to Queensland, or does.
It not quite. The way it broke down is that when State of Origin first came on in nineteen eighty, I lived in New South Wales double Hoo, and I was mad Keen Rugua League supporter and it was seared in my memory that, you know, the frustrations that Queensline just kept beating us for those first four or five years until so they beaten But well that's right, and they had some grades, you know Wally Lewis and you know mountvin Ingram goodness, you know Eddie's Prime. So it
was almost impossible to win. And so therefore I'm a little bit partial to see New South Wales competing state of a blue shirt on yes, that's right. But I'm a bit of a fan of the queens Land Red's rugby team because I had the privilege to going to school and people like Johnny Eels and guys like Mark Connors that I knew from UNI all played for the Reds, so I follow the Reds pretty closely. So so I'm sort of a little bit of it each way.
Bet there, no, no, no, no, come on, come on, come on, and no, no, you can't do that.
You can't do that too, which, Okay, which NRL team do you follow?
Paramatta Eels deals And I've been with the Paramatta Eels since nineteen seventy five when my dad sat me down and said you can go for any team you want as long as it's the Eels.
That's fairly democratic.
And then and then I was sport because in seventy six they made the Grand Final. And then it just felt like for me until I was about seventeen, that every year the Paramatta Eels were either in the Grand Final or just missed out on the Grand Final, or won a Grand Final. And then since then, you know, it's been pretty barren.
In terms of your fan brothers, sisters. What's the deal?
So I'm the ordest of six six kids, six kids. Yeah, so myself, then my two sisters and then three youngest, three boys, six kids. Wow. Yeah, you know, it was a really really lucky, you know, really good upbringing, a great family. Mom and dad still going really strong. They're still live. Yeah, absolutely, Wow, that's still going strong. We celebrated dad's eightieth a couple of weeks ago. He's got well, they've got six kids, and they've got twenty three grandchildren, great grandchild.
Wow.
And all fit, healthy, all all good people going after life in the right way.
You have in your family, as I understand it, either one or two brothers who were fairly decent with using their hands.
Yeah. So my one of my brothers, Paul, was a great boxer. He represented Australia at the Sydney two thousand Olympics and Manchester conwalf Games and he won a gold medal a super middleweight in two thousand and so he was a very good boxer. All my brothers they can handle themselves pretty well, younger brothers, that's right. Yeah, So I got to stay humble when I'm at home. And and then one of my sisters. Both my sisters were great sports persons and one of them won a gold
medal at the Sydney Olympics in water polo. Really yeah, so they left me nothing in the gene covered in terms of you know, they just all of them super talented at sport and achieved so much.
Did you play sport?
Yeah? I was a really enthusiastic swimmer, really swimmer. Yeah, and I like I played all my sort of sports at young football and AFL rugby league, rugby union. I was really committed to being a swimmer, and you know, I trained twice a day. I was trained with Joe King at Leander in Brisbane. Hayley Lewis was one of them.
Yeah, so she was in the squad.
She was in the squad. Yeah. She was a terrific swimmer and obviously represented Australia. I wanted to represent Australia, just wasn't good enough.
But because a lot of swimmers in up playing water polo. Yeah, is that how your sister's gone on a water polow.
I think a little bit of the influence was that we were a mad keen swimming family and so at the pool and good swimmers. I think Gail, you know, my sister who was a water PLoP player. She could have been a champion swimmer, could have been a champion any sports. She is just such a natural athlete and such a capable, hard working training kind of person, So any sports she chose, I think she probably would have succeeded in.
As a parent myself of a swimmer who was like one of my sons was an elite swimmer. One of the things I learned is about swimmers is that there's a massive amount of commitment to the to the craft and also for the parents for that matter too. What do you think you've learned in a character sense from a being a swimmer, but more importantly watching your parents sort of adopt or adapt into the commitment of having a son who wanted to be a swimmer.
Yeah, great, great question. I mean, in terms of summing, I'm forever grateful that I was very committed to it, and also the fact that I didn't get there. I have no regrets because I trained really hard. I just wasn't good enough. But I got so much out of it in terms of friends, but also fitness, and also just I knew how to set a goal and how to relentlessly go.
After And maybe you could explain it a little bit because most people probably haven't been to US. I haven't had the experience of it. So your summer holidays was committed to training when all you're made.
To do it all year round. So I swam all year around, but the.
Trials were and a jenerary.
That's exactly right through summer summer holidays. Five am in the water, finished session seven, seven thirty in the morning, wouldn't do much during the day. Then I'd train in the afternoon. I'd be swimming anywhere between sort of ten to fourteen kilimeters a day. I was really going for it. What was this stroke? Look, breaststroke I wanted. I was competitive as a breastroker. I tried pretty hard at individual medally as well, but breastroke was my main sport, particularly a main stroker.
And then you swim at minimum six days a week.
That's right, it'd be twice a day every day, and then Saturday once this sad day.
So which means when your mates when you were fifteen six and your mates is just starting to go to movies or whatever together and you can't do that sort of stuff because you're getting up four o'clock.
So you have to give a fair bit up. Is it because you're the sort.
Of personality is that you were compliant as a because I got four sons, only one that was any good at this was the most compliant sun.
In other words, you never challenged me. Don't make it up. We got to go.
Was it because you were a compliant kid, or was it because you were a driven kid?
Or both? Well? Look, I think I think I was compliant. I suppose you know, I like to think I was a good boy, but I was driven. Yeah, I was very focused on I had a goal. I wanted to represent Australia. I trained twice a day. I trained really hard. In some ways, I didn't trade smart. I trained hard and without sort of nuance and you know, giving the right things like rest and recovery, the right weight that
they deserved. But that was back in the mid to late eighties where everyone thought you just just put the miles in and you'll get there.
We're keeping log books in those days.
I kept a bit of a log of you know, the sessions, but I didn't keep copious notes.
You weren't doing pulse rates and stuff like that.
Oh no, we were doing in training sessions and there was a lot more science coming into if you were coaching and swimming training then, and the Institute Sport had been a big contributor to that sort of delivery of science into it. But I was very focused on just on the training, and I enjoyed the training. To be honest with you that you know it was quite social.
It is you think not, but at the end of a fifteen hundred have a little bit of a chat.
Yeah, exactually right, and then look, you know I'm ad at all boys school and then assuming cent training, there's lots of girls, so that was also a little bit of a wow. This is a bit of an interesting dynamic.
So what do you I mean?
I can I often ask my son, but he'll tell me this. But what do you think you might have gained in terms of character or your character from putting in many kilomas in the pool, many early mornings, making lots of sacrifices. Maybe they weren't sacrifices, but when you look back in hindsight, had to make a call, what do you think you might have gained in terms of your character today in what you do at the bank
for example? And I don't mean anything specific, but how how did that shape Anthony Miller today.
What I think? How would I? Yeah, that's again a good challenge, certainly, the idea that you've just got to sometimes go through a lot of hard work to get the game, and that you know there's going to be periods of time where it's just a real grind, and that there there's not the sugarcoat of every day and everything's positive always because you're just in the middle of hard work, training hard you're for going going out with your friends because you want to be able to train
at your best the next day. But then there's great rewards at the end of it. And then equally, the thing I enjoyed, I really liked your training. I like the sense of, you know, putting one hundred percent in and just feeling like you've exhausted yourself. And maybe it's perverse, but I took satisfaction out of being a really hard trainer and took great pride in that I was one
of the better trainers and the team. And then one of the things I did learn was, you know, it's all very well to be good and hard training, but at that moment when you have to stand on the block and compete in the race. You know, you've got to have your head in the game. You've got to
be in that moment ready to deliver. And that's one of the other great challenges of assuming, is that you can train for six months through summer and then you've got two and a half minutes to win, and your entire summers defined by two and a half minutes.
In the last race of this it could be one hundred exactly right.
And you know if you don't get everything perfectly right in the race, you know someone can beat you. And so you know you have to be so focused on am I doing it all? Am I doing it all right? Am I getting it all done? And so that sort of constant challenge of is this right? Am I really pushing myself as I should? Have I done everything as I should That constant challenge you imposed on yourself is sort of like a skill that's really helpful later on
in whatever you decide to do. So I sort of feel like assuming that I was pretty privileged to be able to be a swimmer. I thought it really did give me a lot of opportunities and also the fitness and health consequences of just being able to swim ten to fourteen kilometers a day sets you up for life.
I think that's right in a health sense.
And I think also you've got to have at least one parent who's completely committed to that process for the kid, because it's actually quite when I look back, it's all encompassing being a parent of a swimmer in the end. For me, like I was happy to get my kid of a car and get when he got his license so he could at least get himself at training at four thirty in the morning.
If I then say to.
You today in terms of your job of the bank, and by the way, Westpac sits on a number of banks, well they're not. There's not a number of banks, but there's a number of brands, that's right. So you know you've got Saint George, that's right, your bank essays, a bank essays Bank of Melbourne and Bank of Melbourne and anyone else.
And so in terms of bank or bank like offerings. RAMS also has its own system as well. So what really Westpac is an amalgam of you know, different banks sitting under the one group that is Westpac Group. Yeah, and so it's really actually a collection of banks within the group.
Yeah, and they all talk to different customers and they talk to different emotions from different sorts of customers. Like Bank of Melbourne is very Melbourne, Yes, Saint George is sort of not so much Melbourne's Sydney, more Sydney than anything else. I think, you know traditionally, because I remember Sir George about I was a customer of Saint George Building Society, Are you okay? And I went through every and then Saint George Building Society merged with another credit
union or building society. Come overhood it was, and then they then ultimately it became St. George Bank, and then Saint George Bank was taken over under Gail Kelly by Westpac. That's well taken control by Westpak and now as a result that I'm now with Westpak, but I'm still with St George. But I know it's sitting on the west Bank brand. And as a as someone's sitting on top of such a it's a large group.
What do you would you say that.
The event Isswen, lots of other things happened in your life will talk about at a moment, but were they do they build resilience? View? Because like as a bank boss, I can't imagine I think you'd be putting a bushfires a lot. I mean there'd be a lot of dramas, I mean, like within the bank or maybe didn't you come in you came in after west PAC's major drama, the drama that sort of occurred during after nineteen twenty nineteen.
I think, yeah, no, certainly. I joined Westpac at the end of twenty twenty and that was just in that sort of a difficult twelve months where you know, there was obviously infractions under the money laundering and OSTRAK matter, and then there was quite a bit of work that Westpac as a group had to do, which was you know, fixed or immediate processes, and so for a few years there it was very you know, very much focused on getting.
Its house in order. We're doing it fifteen hundreds.
That's exactly right, and so that was just that's just hard work, grinding way that's right, and more importantly, it's just getting back to the basics and making sure the way we deliver products and service to the customers were done at a standard that met community and regulatory expectations.
And so you know, the bank did a lot of work on that, and that was also while challenging, also quite enjoyable in the sense of just you know, as a leadership team, all of us at the time just very focused on how do we just get Westpac the group back to where it should be, which is, you know, a really good bank, performing well and delivering for customers.
And share holders, which, by the way, I'll come back to the customer shareholder thing, because that's a hard one to balance. Well, there's a balance, but it's a difficult one. I want to talk to you about how you do that. Yeah, if I just go back to you left school and what did you do.
So I finished school in eighty seven and I went to university and I did a degree at the time, which was a little bit unusual. And you might remember the late eighties, Japan was the second largest colony world had just come out of nowhere through the seventies and eighties, and Japan was buying everything in Queensland. It just felt like tourists exactly right.
So it was a massive development and everything, Yesdney as well, okay.
Yeah, well certainly in Queensland. And so when I finished school, I suppose you know, my father had studied law, so I was a little bit drawn to I'll study law. But I decided to do an arts law degree, and it was the first time it had been offered. There was only eleven of us in the first class. And it was a combination of Asian studies majoring in Japanese language and some other so that's the outside of it.
That's the outside of it, plus a law degree. And the law degree was at QUT and the Arts or Asian Studies degree was at griff of the University. So the two universities had combined and so to be sort of like Monday at QUT Tuesday at Griffith or vice versa.
And they were physical in those days.
Exactly right, quite two different campuses, one in the city, one out at sort of Mount Gravat. So that was a really interesting combination. And so I went after that. And my intention was when I finished that degree that I'd probably go and pursue, you know what it calls, like a career, perhaps working in Japan, or I'd go and study further in Japan.
And as it turned out, that didn't eventuate. Did you learn to speak Japanese?
I study Japanese, that's right. I would say my Japanese is poor, you know, one of the one of the challenges is that once you study languages, you've got to go and live and immerse yourself in the culture. And I didn't get to do that straight after university and so missed my window to really cement the language. But then, as it turns out, through my career later on, I
was in Japan a lot for business. I really enjoyed working in Japan, and I had teams reporting to me out of Japan, so I've had a lot of exposure to Japan over the course the last thirty years.
So did you ever practice as a lawyer?
So I did. I finished university and I was a bit unsure about where I was going to go, and I was actually playing a little bit of rugby at Brothers Rugby Club in Britain, and a guy called Paul Tully and another guy who was working at the law firm Grand Deal Love encouraged me to join their law firm. So I joined their law firm for a couple of years, which was great because I was sort of unsure about what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go, and they gave me an opportunity just to work for
a couple of years qualify as a lawyer. And I did that and that was that was that was great times.
As a young lawyer.
Did I guess you just again put just wim me hot on and you know, you just have to grind away, do sixteen hours a day, get paid crappy money.
Do do they do college law in quis? How does it work?
No? No, you could do that, but back then it was an article class. You're an article class because you're at the bottom of the food chain. And in some ways that was also, in hindsight, a great thing because I had to do lots of menial jobs as well as you know, potentially some of the more interesting legal and so you just get into work and you start
from scratch and you just work. And the idea of just having to do hard work and eventually things will come your way was sort of like, well, okay, I understood that, you know, I grew up on that premise, and so I really enjoyed it and I got a lot out of that. And then what had happened was, you know, they were very good to me, and I was enjoying what I was doing there, and I got married and had a wonderful I had first baby, very very early, and I sort of sat back and forward.
Do you want to be in a lawyer in Brisbane? Now? Is this? Is this why I studied art law? Is this what I thought I was going to do? And the answer was, actually, I think I want to go and look out for more and try something else. And so as a result of that decision, I applied for a job and I got a job here in Sydney with Mallison's, you know, the big law firm, and that was very gracious so then to give me a chance.
And I went from sort of a small suburban, you know, small highly specialized firm in Brisbane that's really actually bossomed since since that time, to Mallison's very large firm in Sydney. And I was put into the banking and finance practice, which I hadn't worked in before, and I was assigned to a team. And the partner who I worked for, he was really tough, but he was really good for me in the sense that in what way well he was just so demanding and exacting in terms of accuracy
and detail and work. And I think that was really good for me because it just set a bar immediately. You've got to be at this standard if you're going to prosper in this place. And you know, that was great, and I just put my head down and I just I just worked my way through that.
Again. Well yeah, I just kept going.
And I just and by and after a period of time, excuse me, he he was incredibly gracious and generous to me, allowing me to do more and more and gave me a lot more run of the place. And I saw some magnificent partners who I was just so impressed with how they handled and conducted themselves. It just really lifted me up and asked me to, you know, think about the kind of person I want to be, the kind of professional I want to be in the standard I need to set myself. And so I got a lot
out of that. And in working at that law firm, I had some exposure to various banks and then eventually I moved to one of those banks, and that's how I went from law into finance effects.
So a lot of people don't realize that there are in those big law firms like Mallicon's. I mean most of them think of it was a bit of a factory. But and it just greet.
Me if I'm wrong. We're talking about the early nineties.
This was ninety six. I came to Sydney into ninety six.
So a firm like Mallison's, they're probably already merged with Stephen Jakeson.
That's Malison Stephen and and now they're now something else.
But but they got so big relatively speaking, at the time it was the market was dominated by them and two or three out the law firms in terms of size, and they got all the big jobs. Yes, the big banks that the big work. You would have been in
one of the big four law firms. Does that does that somehow inform you as to or does that how to somehow shape you as to your future career that you end up in one of the big four banks you were one of the big you were at the big investment banks too prior to that, or the big foreign banks who were very active here in Australia. We'll talk about that in a second. Does do you think that has some impact on your career path? Did you say to yourself, Look, I've always been a a I've
experienced at a big law firm. I've now been experienced at the big non re tail banks here in Australia and let's call maw it was deutsch Bank and whose gold missacks. Yeah, so globally two of the biggest banks, particularly Deutsche and the US and in terms of certain areas anyway, did that start to make you think this is the source of environment we've got to stick to or did you ever.
Think to someone?
Wouldn't I going back to a small local law firm like the one in Brisbane?
Oh no. So so when I got to Mallison's and you know, I really enjoyed my time there, and I really enjoyed as I got to do more, and I really and what.
Was it you enjoyed though about it?
Well, they're all high quality people and who were every day, you know, going hard at it.
Your colleagues or the colleagues.
Colleagues above and below and around. So it was a very sort of performed kind of environment.
Yea.
And it was really interesting and you know, big end of town kind of works. That was quite for a young, impressionable guy from Brisbane. It was like, wow, yeah, this is exciting, and so I really enjoyed it. It was also the case that I never really had any plans. I never I sort of oh, that's really good. I'm going to try that. And I ended up going into finance, for example, by accident. I didn't start with that initiative. But then I had a conversation with Credit Sweese and
they said, oh, you know, I want you. You know, we're looking for a lawyer. Want you join us? And I joined it as an in house lawyer, and then I moved into banking quickly thereafter. And it was because they said I want you to try this, and I said, yeah, okay, I'll try that. I was never sitting back and saying here's my plan. I'm going to work in a big four law firm. Then I'm going to move into a big investment bank, and then I just never had it
mapped out in my head. And in some respects I was just enjoying.
The play was in front of you, exactly what, And I really.
Enjoyed the people and working and the intensity required. And then as I got into that, and you're competing hard to perform and deliver, people then graciously and generously give you opportunities, or at least I was in that respect. And so that's how my career developed was without design, It was just developed as a result of just people giving me a chance at things, and I decided, yeah, I'll try that, and I'll try that.
And so it's funny you should say this, because I wondered to myself, is Anthony Miller's propensity and preparedness to work hard and work with intensity and all those things you're talking about? Then? Is that something that was socially formed on him by putting him through swimming regimes or is that something that his personality always was going to do and when he ended up going to work, he was actually had the propensity and the preparedness to do it.
So I think there were three forces. One is definitely swimming, you know, trainee experience, experiences, I know I can do it exactly. And then I think I was a little bit built that way. And then fairly my parents work.
They worked hard, they put a hundred percent in, and I was never It was always clear to me, It was always clear to all my brothers and sisters that Mum and Dad were working really hard and they worked really hard to make sure we had opportunities, and there was no way I was ever going to let them down by not having one hundred percent effort into whatever we did or whatever goal or whatever opportunity was given to me, I was always going to give it one
hundred percent and do whatever it took. And I sort of like, almost I felt an obligation to make sure that if I was going to do something, I was going to do it really well, because how could I look Mum and Dad in the eye and not have put one hundred percent into something like a sense of duty, a sense of duty, sense of obligation. But that's only because they work so hard and they you know, we didn't have a lot, but we wanted for nothing when we were growing up, and the eldest six kids and
everyone was given a real good school. Everyone was given any sport opportunity they wanted to pursue they could, and you know, you've got swimmers, footballers, boxes, water pilot players, any sport anywhere. Mom and Dad would take whoever it was to that sport and then back them one hundred percent. And so I think we all felt an obligation to, you know, work hard and take every opportunity and give it one hundred percent. So I think there's three forces.
I think the assuming definitely think a little bit of my own personality and DNA and then clearly that obligation or responsibility to mom and dad.
Do you have any memories of any one particular individual who was a great mentor to you outside your parents at work in either the law firm or Creswiz or gold Misax or at Deutsche, was there someone who sort of took you under their wing and said, you know, I'm gonna try and this kid along. Yeah.
Look, I think I was I was lucky in particularly in my career, that there's been a few people who took some interest in me and just gave me a little bit of extra coaching and insights. And there was a I was working for one partner at Mallison's, a guy called Michael Gammons who was very good to me, and he was really really fixated on accuracy and detail and that helped me improve and I improved a lot
as a professional and as an individual. And there was another partner in the law firm who had a big impact on me, and he didn't probably didn't realize it. And I did catch up with him on a few occasions after I'd left the law firm and shared this with him. And he passed away on here a couple of years ago, and his name was John Stumbles, and he was the sort of senior partner in the banking
and finance practice. And he was such a nice, decent guy, incredibly thoughtful and compassionate and incredibly driven, but just so classy. And I just every time I saw him in action and every time he spoke, I thought, Gee, this guy
is so impressive. And then he started to just give me a little bit of coaching and a little bit of encouragement, and he'd sort of pulled me inside and say, look, you know, as you're doing this work, i'd be you know, think about this as you deliver yourself into that meeting Anthony, or would be mindful of the fact that this is what people will be looking for. And so I was very grateful for that coaching from a guy who had I had put on a pedestal because he was just
so classy and so good at what he did. So I was lucky there. And then when I joined Goldman's there was a couple of people there who, again, you know, it's a highly high intensity, high performance environment, and a couple of people took the time out to give me feedback and sort of highlight what my strength is or what my weakness is and what I should work on, and so I was very grateful for that.
That's interesting you should say that, particularly that as a younger man in a law firm impressed with somebody's let's call it kindness and generalists because generally speaking, the sort.
Of more.
Maybe he's incorrect, but the more accepted proposition of someone who's very, very successful in an organization like a big firm is that you have to be a bit of a bugger to get up there, you know, like you have to be tough and mean and all those sorts
of things. When someone like you says that they were impressed as a younger man with someone who actually played good qualities kindness, gentleness, but also constructive criticism, how much of that have you taken away from that and put into your cell phone what you do now?
Yeah, so that's again a good sort of challenge. Like I'm incredibly driven, I think in the business today, that's right. I'm very I'm very competitive. I want to win, but I don't want to win unfairly. I don't want to have an unfair advantage and win. I want to I want everyone to have the same opportunity and you know, competing in a race, it's no good if you're given every advantage and the others have no such chance to compete. It's not really a racist.
You're talking about internally.
Now that's internally, that's externally. But you know, competing. I do enjoy competing and I do enjoy winning. But equally, if I've tried my best and I wasn't good enough,
then so be it. And so therefore, you know, you can and should be able to be an effective executive and an effective leader, and things like making sure everyone is fairly treated, making sure everyone is heard, going out a way to help someone who's a little bit less fortunate in opportunities in the office or opportunities where it might be seems to me to be like something that absolutely should be allowed and should be endorsed and should
be accepted. And that doesn't mean you can't be compassionate, which I think is really important and really important virtues to be compassionate, but compassionate and thoughtful, but also really demanding of yourself and then also able to then say to other people, let's lift your standard. And asking someone to lift their standard is not unfair inappropriate. If you're a person who's thoughtful, compassionate, understanding and prepared to the
same as I did the same. And so I suppose so with that.
Leadership by example, I think I think.
It's a little bit of that. Yeah, I think also, you know, and I think about leadership and what I have to do at the bank, there's an element of leadership and we're going in this direction. Equally, as a leader, I've also got a responsibility to make sure people have the best opportunity to improve and develop and grow. And so leadership is a little bit of service as well. You know, it's not as a leader that's your reward and look at you and everyone needs to do what
you say. But actually, no, I'm a leader and my job is to then help everyone prosper, everyone progress, everyone improve. And so I think that sort of leadership where it's anchored around you know, look at this dominant personality and look at how successful they are, and there's this idea that they're a bit of a bugger and they're a bit hard nosed. No, I'm not interested in that. I'm much more focused on that leader who we're here to deliver.
We're going to win, but we're going to do it together and what can I do to help you to contribute to where we've got to get to as a team. So that's how I think about it. That's how I try and balance it.
We often say, I mean, you would remember this from when your brother was boxing styles wind fights, so you you know, in a long version, then you try to describe your style. But let's say, as a leader, what would how would you describe it in a shorter version, like, you know, how would you describe yourself as a leader? There therefore as a leader, like the way you lead the bank, because you know how many stuff you got, like how many people in the group.
We've got just under thirty eight thousand in the group. You're not sort of looking at.
Let's call it the latest people have been employed in the last eight hundred or something, and you're not sort of talking to each on them.
That's impossible.
So you've got to build leadership teams as well below you. So do you build leadership teams as a leader that follow your style of leadership? I mean, do you sort of self select or do people self select based on you? You do you do you pick people in your own image as a leader?
Good? Good question, I think I think it's all a little bit of all of the above, if I can answer it that way, which is, you know, what I'm very focused on at Westpac, and what's really important to me is I want a team, a leadership team, because I think a great team is always going to be so much more successful. So what I'm really focused on is an executive team who have great teamwork, have each other's backs, clear on what we collectively are going after
where we want to take this bank. What I've also been focused on, for example, as I've brought people into the executive team, is making sure that other executives got an opportunity to meet and to interview those perspective candidates. Not just your call that's exactly right. I want us to say, is this a team member. We want part of our team who will commit and share with us both the challenge and the upside of what we want to go after. And so I've been very focused on that.
And what's been very interesting to me is that you know, we've got a goal we want to take Westpac, but equally, the executives who've joined us and who want to join us, and as we build this right across the bank, everyone wants to join a team. They want to be part of a team. That is what we are focused on and what we're trying to create. And so that's been really really invigorating and encouraging to see that kind of response.
Because like, you know that you have a limited pool where to choose your executive team out of. I mean, unless you bring him in from over sous, perhaps you are. But let's say we're just looking at the Australian landscape and that you know the people who are available for a spot that you need to fill based on what
you want your leadership to to look like. Sometimes you have to go and see who's out there in the marketplace, Like we're doing Rabia League at least time, but the rooster is we're always finding you know, who someone fits
into our system. Yeah, but because you know, someone could be a great player, have all the talent in the world for a particular spot position, could be sand a wing, whatever, But unless they fit into our system, won't we won't employ Our system has a lot to do with character, style, et cetera. Is that something you get an opportunity to do at a bank like yours, Because I've noticed I saw on the paper today that someone's left one of the big banks is coming over to join you guys.
Yeah, so how do you do To use that analogy, I sometimes use this description of you know, let's get the right athletes in the right seats, but we've got to have it. It's got to be a team. And we've got some exceptional talent at Westpac, and so it's been a real pleasure and delightful to see and elevate some of them and have them promoted and you can
see just outstanding performance. But there's definitely been a couple instances where we thought, you know what, it's probably appropriate just to bring in someone who can bring a little bit of more open minded thinking or some different thinking into the team. And so that's why we have recruited a couple of external executives, and we will continue to always look at the talent of the internally and externally
is to make those decisions. But the number one rule or discipline I've been focused on is making sure that they will work as a team and they will fit in with the team, which is why, you know, having other executives help in the decision as to who we wanted to bring in and why is in my mind pretty important.
But in your game, do you have like understood or agreed anti poaching rules? I mean, I mean, like how do you find these people? Or do you meet them at a function? Or do really good question this dude's good or that girl's great. Yeah, let's go for us.
So look at a couple of things. I mean, obviously we have recruitment firms that help us at the market. I do think it's my responsibility as a leader and any leader of any bank, and I certainly see the leaders of Westpact their job is to constantly understand the quality of the team they have, the quality of the talent out they're in the marketplace, and to be constantly asking themselves, have I've got the balance right? Are we delivering?
And constantly testing and challenging as to whether it's working and working as it should and making sure that the team's performing. And equally, have you got the right people in the right seats with the right ability and attitude to deliver? And so and so Therefore you know that idea of finding talent is if you will, probably my number one job description retaining and investing in people is
probably really my number one job description. And then all the leaders in the bank have that same obligation, which is, we've got to make sure we've got the best talent, We've got the best people on the best seats. And if I think about banking and where we are today, Mark, and you think about the world in which we operate, you know, more and more it's going to be automated more and more. It's digital. Ninety six percent of what
people do with Westpac is digital. And then you think about the regulator who says, I want you to be the same. I don't want you to have more risk appetite in one area versus another bank that ain't like that. So and then you put something like AI over the top of it, and what you have is everything's becoming much more homogenized and so it's being driven to be the same. And so therefore, how are we going to be different and how am I going to differentiate Westpac
in the marketplace? And it's going to be back to the future. It's your people and how good they are, and more importantly, the discretionary effort they bring in every day and the way they feel trusted and empowered and supported.
That's where we've got to go. And that's why I'm very focused on how I build a team and how that team then leads the company, and how everyone in the company understands we've got your back, because the way we're going to win is by having the best people with the best in work environment, giving us their best every day.
So what is a win for you, Anthony?
So, like in other words, who are your stakeholders mean a broad a sort of group of stakeholders, But who are your stakeholders? And what is it that most of them are looking for? They're looking for, you know, the profit cash profit you're going to report. Are they looking for, you know, a share price or what.
Are they looking for?
And so our goal is a number one and I'm just number one in what regard number one? And so that's exactly right. It doesn't mean it's the largest. And what I'm looking for is that, you know, from a customer customer service proposition, everyone goes, gee, they're the number one, and we're not there at the moment. There's some pockets of the bank which are number one in customer metrics, et cetera, but we're not universally where we need to be,
and so we're after that. So that's our goal. I don't think you can be number one unless you have the best employee proposition. So I want to be the place, and I want to create an environment worst pac and we have a great environment, great people, but I want it to be the number one place that people want to work. So I want to create the number one
employee proposition and people come to work. And if you've got the best people coming to work, giving their best every day, then that underwrits your ability to provide that customer outcome, that outcome that you want, which is number one customer. If I get those two right, then I think what I do is I deliver the right return to shareholders and that's that consistence, sustainable growing return to shareholder in terms of dividend and obviously share price growth.
And so that's the other element of what I think is number one. And we need to deliver better return on equity. We need to deliver better cost income ratio. Those are all if you will indicators, and if we can get those right, then I think that will If you will allow us to claim and be recognized as number one, doesn't mean we're the largest. It doesn't also
necessarily mean we're always the most profitable. But we are getting that balance right customer, employee and shareholder, and if I get that right, then we will be number one.
Do you see the regulator as a stakeholder because the regular represent Australia absolutely, and so because we give you, we give you a license. When I say we, Australia has given you a license to be, to be, to take deposits and to be what they call an adi or a bank so to speak. And the Regulator is the policeman around this sort of stuff. Policemen also, but I'm not as not that bad as more they do a lot of other things as well.
Now they stakeholder representing.
All of us. I think that's right. I mean, I would you know, in the context of if I'm going to be number one in terms of customer service, I've got to need a standard. I've got an obligation to the community and to the regulator in terms of how
to deliver our services. So I feel it's entwined if I'm going to be number one in that customer proposition that I'm providing that I'm absolutely viewed by the regulator and by the community in the same way that I'm meeting those standards that I need to meet because you're absolutely right, you know, a license to operate a bank as a bank is a privilege and we need to and do recognize it as such, and so therefore need to make sure and everything we do we meet the
standards that the regulator stroke community expects of us.
So many many years ago, and I think it was around about my recollection was about two thousand and one or two. The very well known and you'll remember Blood Pit, won't, but it was a very well known CEO of ABHI. His name was Don Argus. Yes, and Don was asked I think it was an interview for the AFR. He said, they said to him whatever they said to what keeps you up at night? What keeps you awake at night?
And his response was a foreign entity who has the big balance sheet coming into Australia and either buying a bank or competing with a bank, And he quoted General.
Electric at the time.
General Electory at the time was the world's largest company by market CAPP was probably the biggest finance financier in the world in terms of you know, asset finance, and it's not today, but it was then.
Because the Gypsy's sort of changed that.
But and interesting enough general actorly do you come into Australia If I asked Anthony Miller today, what's something that keeps you awake at night in terms of the banking sector, not not just West but but the banking sector. What is the biggest challenge to you today?
Look, I mean there's a couple of things. So if I could sort of have a bit of liberty to say from one thing, I think you know one thing I'm very focused on. I think all the chief executives of the banks are, and chief executives right across Australia, which is cyber and cyber crime, cyber security data. It's just such a challenging environment. And we're not just if you will, dealing with say criminals or you know, unfair
business practices. We're dealing with nation states assaulting the country. And so that's that's a complexity and a challenge that I don't think previous CEO sort of any era had to had to contemplate. And the challenges we face as we deal with cyber threats to the country are such
that you know that that does deeply worry me. The other aspect of I suppose what I do worry about is, essentially banking is increasingly, as I described it, homogenized, commoditized, and so is it something that we could be further disintermediated by or impacted by as a large technology company looks to via their phone essentially say just deal with me on everything, and I will outsource and if you will have a white label offering, and I'll have a
deposit over here, and I'll get a bank which will just be technically the deposit adi institution, but you'll do it all via me, and you'll do it all via my phone, for example, like Google. That's right, Google and other one of the technology giants, exactly right, And so do they then if you will into the financial services or the regulated banking sector, and I do worry about that.
I do think other executives worry about that. I do also reflect on the fact that, however, if that's where they do go, then they will be captured by regulation that they're not captured by today, and they don't want that kind of regulation, And then that will be a very interesting proposition to put to people, is do you want these people providing banking services without necessarily the same responsibilities in the other sides, that's right, and then all
of a sudden, being a regulated bank and being very good at how you deliver on your regulatory obligations to both regulator and community becomes not a burden, as it isn't as advantage, but is part of your comparative advantage and in fact is something that we should be embracing and celebrating because if we do that well, then that reinforce is that license top rate and that right top right, and reinforces our position in the marketplace.
You guys are with the banking section, particularly the big five banks including mcquarie. You're the biggest tax payer in the country, probably as a group, definitely one of the most influential.
Where do you see.
Your banks or your grouping bank, your bank group obligations relative to nation building and national policy in relation and things like super tax. Do you feel as though you have a position or do you think you feel as though you should get on the front foot about it As a bank, I'm talking about.
As an institution.
That's a that's a that's a and that's a challenge for us. A question that we ask ourselves is, well, look, well, certainly we're a big company and in big industry and have a big role to play in the Australian community and economy, and we have a license stop rate, and we need to be very fixated on we're delivering the right standard of service to our customers and we're meeting that community and regulatory expectation in doing that. And we've
just got to make sure we're superb at that. And if we're superb at that, then I think we've earned the right to be able to contribute to the public discourse around particular things like tax maybe industry relations, maybe policy settings, etc. But I think we've got to make sure we're very very good on delivering that service to the standard our customers want and the community expects if we're going to contribute to these discussions. And I would
say that perhaps you could. You know, over the last ten years there's been a period of time where the banks haven't been at the standard needed to and Royal Commission and other things revealed that. But I do think we perhaps particularly with COVID and what's happened in the last few years, hopefully people do feel banks are working better, working hard to deliver customer service to the right standards.
Community expects and so therefore we can and should contribute a little bit more to some of these bigger topics and bigger discussions. But we've got to be a little bit honest with our sales marketing on until we've got that standard. We got ourselves to that standard consistently, we're going to be careful.
The Glas Houses argument, this.
Is exactly right, and we've just got to be a little bit humble about how we put our selves forward into these into these kind of debates. I do think, for example, Westpac is Australia's oldest company. First, they're going to help us bank first and oldest bank, and the fact is that our success has been tied to the growth and progress of this country, and so we have a heavy responsibility to contribute to Australia's growth and support Australia.
And one of the things I would sort of say that we've done is we've committed to retaining our businesses in Papua New Guinea and Fiji because that's part of what is important to Australia's natural interests as we go forward. And we've therefore got a great working relationship with Canberra in making sure how we do things and what we want to do in P and G and FIG is something that they're comfortable with and is serving the national
interest as we go forward. And I think that's been to me and I think that I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud of the Voice Pact doing that. And that's an example of the kind of things we know we need to do more of in helping Australia, because if Australia prospers, then being a bank with the market share we have, we naturally prosper as a results, and so thinking much more nationwide is sort of also part of my job description.
Now, two more quick questions. The first one is.
Cryptocurrency and all the usual players in relationship cryptocurrency and a bigcoin, et cetera, ethereum.
What's the bank's position in relation to that?
So the underlying technology where continuously working with our peer banks international and domestic the Reserve Bank on how we might use that technology, particularly in the context of international payments for example, and tokenization of deposits and our sets all of a sudden could reduce a lot of friction quick couldn't make it all quicker and more efficient. What we've got to be careful of is you know, as things go faster and more efficiently, you know, frauds and
other matters are affected more effectively and efficiently. And so we've got to make sure that, you know, as we go further with this, that we are still retaining certain protections that community and customers expected us. In the context
of cryptocurrency itself. Uh, you know, we continue to see an enormous amount of fraud and scam activity in generation around cryptocurrency, and so we are conservative in terms of facilitating payments into crypto exchanges and payments out of crypto exchanges using these train well the Westpac banking system, and I think that's a statement probably applies to all these train banks because there is just such a hyperpensity for fraud,
scam and criminal activity that we're very cautious about that. And so until that is addressed, it's hard to see how we just go and embrace that asset class in a way that some of the uses of it are advocating we should go. And so and one of the other interesting things for me is this interesting and emerging challenge for the United States, which is it's embracing on
the one hand, bitcoining crypto. But the US's pre eminence in the world is one of the reasons for that is it's US dollar, and the US dollar is the currency that everyone goes to and goes between as they do their international trade or if you will, complete transactions.
So why would you you gebilize jeopardize that by encouraging something such as a bitcoin as an alternative where there is no ability to truly monitor, trace and if you will, govern, And that would only start to weaken US position globally. And so I'm finding that a little bit of an interesting development, which is, you know, US Hedgemeny is at risk if you allow bitcoin the full run or the cryptocurrency universe to have the full run of international payments,
et cetera. So how do we get that balance right? That's to me a little bit unclear, and it also means, you know, let's be thoughtful crypto.
So basically your position to let it play out and see what happens. It's one of those areas where I don't think you have to be first, you just got to be right. Yeah, and so let's be right. So final final question, more of commentary. I noticed when we're doing the work on this podcast. Some two books you've read. I'm sure I've read many books. But two books you read is called Why Nations Fail, and the other one is called The Count of Monte Christo.
But I just want to look at Why Nations file that book.
That book was actually quite an interesting book and I remember it as well. But it was sort of proffering a position that nations that fail are the ones that sort of only look after the elite and lock out everyone having an opportunity, fair opportunity to innovate through innovation, to become.
Better what they do?
Is that a Is that a book?
Big?
Does that book sort of somehow describe how Anthony Miller feels and thinks about just about how things should happen in the world.
Yeah, look, it is a book. I've read it a couple of times and have reflected on it. Certainly, you know, the nation's failing because the essentially the gap between the have and have not gets too far. But more importantly, they have nots don't think they have any hope. I don't think they have any opportunity. And so that's a really critical challenge, exam challenge for society today.
And we have that with young people's right. I feel that relative to people, say my age, the boomers, that's right.
And then in particular, perhaps the example that most brings this out, which is housing and access to housing. And so you know, I own my house, and everyone of my age and generation, you know, we all got opportunities and we have brought property, and I think we've enjoyed the wealth effect of house and house prices growing, but we're currently not building enough or creating enough house or unit supply so that everyone feels they're a chance of
getting it. Doesn't mean you guarantee that they get it, but they've got to feel like this hope that they'll get it. And so one of the things that I drew out of the Wye Nations file is that unless we are working much harder at ensuring those who don't have property, as an example, feel there's at least hope and there's things in place that give them a chance of getting access to property, then that's a real problem
and we've got to solve that. And those who have property and those who are, if you will, in the incompor position that many of us are today, we have a bit of a responsibility to say, well, what else
can we do? Now? What should we be doing to ensure that others have the same opportunities we had our bit circumstances different and you know, the environments different, But we've got to give them the same opportunities, the same hope that we all had that drive our behaviors to buy, and they obviously enjoy owning property.
And the reason I asked you because and to some extent, I've sort of set you up a little bit. But
and then I apologize to that. But it goes back to my earlier question about banks having a say on policy, because if I just use young people, anyone under the age of thirty, who's looking at and by the way, I'm going to sound like a heretic saying this, but would be thinking themselves like I can't afford to go and bid against ants the middle because Anthony Miller's got Maybe you're not the boss of Westbak, you're just a
school teacher, headmaster at a school. But you've accumulated two properties. Your income from the two properties now is being added to your other income from your wage, and given negative gearing, Anthony Miller might get approved for more money to buy the property against one of my young producers. He's only twenty two, and Anthony Miller is going to use negative gearing to.
Build up more of a portfolio.
And by the way, I'm not against eve viearing. I think it's a great thing that's being great for Australia.
But at the same time, this summit that's being held a productivity summer, they're they're going to address tax reform and as I sound, going to sound like a heretic, but to some extent, wealth has been created in this country by using sort of tax concessions that really only benefit blokes like you and me today and women like you and I, you know, like people in our position, and it is largely unfair for the younger people because whilst they can use negative gearing, they actually don't ever
call a five for loan. And we're always going to be a to able to add bid them because then the eggy gearing, we're going to be able to say, you know, and I want that property and my income is better than yours, mister twenty one year old. Therefore I can always abid you, and as a result of our bidding, you never get on the ladder.
We can't.
I don't think we can solve more housing. I mean, it seems like an issue we can't solve. When we saw somebody coming out of Treasury which is leaked somehow, they saying that Treasures already advised the government that they will not meet there one point two million housing guide the new houses. So if we can't solve the housing issue, affordability issue for younger people. And you know, younger people are big, big cohort in your business. I mean they're
very important to you because they're the next generation. You know, we're all going to die off at some stage. You've got to fill the bucket back up with younger people. And you've got to attract younger people, which is tasting back to the question I should before and given you know your you know why nations fail book, it's because institutions governments talking about not restructuring or changing the structure of the system to allow people to get back on the ladder younger people.
Where do you think?
So I come back to that idea that people need to feel that they have an opportunity, that there's hope. I do think we have not done anywhere near what we should be doing to create more supply in the
context of housing. And so when you talk about there's a lot of us within this element of incumbency that can therefore just keep buying and thus squeezing out those who don't, you certainly can try to temper that demand by limiting how many properties you might own, and obviously that just creates our cottage industry of arbitrage, etc. And what we've done and continue to perhaps put too much weight on, is how do we solve the demand side
in Australia. So why don't we lend more money or give more money to first home buyers or cap interest grant and they're all good things, and we should do all of those things. But what we've got to do is solve supply. And if I just keep this simple sort of proposition in front of us, which is supply at the right price point, so that all those people who can't at the moment by a property can see there is an opportunity or potential opportunity and they have hope.
We've got to create that. And so if I think about the median income in Australia is about ninety thousand dollars, as a bank you would land probably five times someone's income subject to expense verification maybe six times subject too expense verification against their income a mortgage. So therefore that tells you we need a lot of houses in that sort of five hundred to six hundred thousand dollars zip code. If we're going to solve what is currently available in
terms of financing and matching the two that's right. And so then you break it down and say, okay, we need more five hundred and six hundred thousand dollars houses, and so median income median house prices in Australia over million dollars at one point six million dollars in Sydney Regional Australia as median house price is five hundred thousand dollars.
So if we're going to go after house price houses units at the right price point, why aren't we thinking a lot more about how we create more opportunity in regional Australia just given the price point there meets so
much more of what we need to solve. Second thing is is that maybe we have to continue to work harder at densifying and providing a lot more properties in the city rather than the big home which obviously costs an amount and well, because of costs and because of a whole host of other issues are more expensive than five to six hundred thousand dollars, how do we create a lot more five hundred to six hundred thousand dollars properties? And we're not putting that exam question in front of
everyone in the property ecosystem to deliver. And I think if we then said let's go after that, you'd be surprised at what could be achieved if that's the goal. And more importantly, we say to every single council, your job is to make sure that there's fifty new units or houses at the price point at five and six affordable house, Yeah, but not affordable in the sense of, you know, a slightly pejorative Oh it's a low socio demographic.
No.
No, this is just price of property at the right price point to meet to demand that at the moment is not being Do you think.
The word affordable is probably the wrong word to use because it is pejorative, It sort of sounds like and to develop as.
Some people will feel like, you know, it's a little bit sort of patronized affordable housing. No, no, no, just got to get more property at the right price point. For people who can pay that price.
It's a better narrative, much better narrative because the people whore buying it, I don't want to be thinking the buying affordable housing. They want to think I've bought the price because that's the price I can afford. It might be a bit smaller, might you know, might have you know, slightly one bathrooms, but it might be just slightly different to be affordable from the developer's point of view. But that's what it makes sense. And I think the change
in the narrative is really important. And you know the industry more than better than anybody.
Know who you are. We've certainly got good insights on the industry and we know better than anyone. But we've got good insights on the industry, and we're very keen to support the industry. And you know, and the job creation, the nation building opportunities in building let's put more into regional Australia. And then you think about regional Australia, Northern Australia.
We need a lot more of our population living in Northern Australia for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is it's not it's a reasonably elegant potential way to deal with cost of housing at the
right price point for the demand that we have. The only other thing I'd say about that book which I thought was really important was, and you drew on it in some of your observations, that what you when you read the book is about the power of having innovation and the way private property or intellectual property laws and protecting people who come up with great ideas and giving and thus stimulating and challenging people to innovate and come
up with new things. So and that's one of those things which you know we should continue to ask ourselves. Are we're doing enough? And I think we have great intellectual property protections in Australia, but are we creating enough of an environment and enough room for people to try things, create things, trial and error, because we've got to innovate and we've got to be really open minded and courageous about trying things if we're going to I suppose, succeed
as a nation. And if there's one thing you sort of could argue the US has as an advantage of everyone else in the world, is they believe every day that they're going there's a chance to get ahead. They believe in the American dream, and they believe in the idea that they can innovate and they can create. And obviously their technology industry and what the innovation and the ambition they have is extraordinary, and that is to underpin
so much of the success in the United States. We need to encourage that a lot more in Australia, in my view, and create a lot more context where people feel to go and try to try an experiment. And one of the issues in Australia is sometimes I think we're a bit tough on each other, hiding behind that idea of the tall poppy syndrome where we drag people
down for trying. I think we've got to start to really endorse and celebrate and get behind people who are trying things and create a much more positive culture around that.
Anything like that.
That's actually pretty cool that you actually said that, because innovation and the innovation nation, which is what Malcolm turn Will try to turn Astralia into when he was the Prime minister here is probably my biggest bug beer. I think we've lost a little bit of that, and not that we're without talent.
I mean I think we've got enormous talent.
Amazing.
Just liberate that talent and give it every run of the place. Well mate, thanks very much. I really appreciate it things. Thank you. That's very gracious to as so, thank you very ch I'm.
Actually privileged to have a CEO and your of your elk into the organization, so thanks so much.
And that