#182 Michael Hooper on leading the Wallabies & life beyond the game

Hi, my Boris and this is straight Talk, my Luba. Welcome to straight Talk.

Thank you for having me. How good?

How you feeling?

Well? A little bit tired.

I was on got late, got in late last night from Dubai. There was a sevens tournament up there, so I was up there doing a bit of stuff with HSBC which was in commentary or a bit of commentary, a bit of rugby stuff. So sevens competition. The sevens kicked off their their competition for the year, so big event up in Dubai, which was yeah, cracking, cracking stuff.

It's mad up there isn't it like the stuff that's going on in the Middle East, like Saudi Dubai, Abadhabi.

Do you have a look around, mate, I didn't.

I wanted to get to the wavepool that Kelly's just opened up in Abu Dhabi.

But no, we were. We were in Dubai.

But the event was cricket, rugby seven's like you know, there's a heap of stuff going on some a big concert right at the end of it.

Yeah, it was, I do so.

So I actually sat with I had breakfast with the maid of mine, Ginge David Ginjel, and he went to the wave pool last week, which one in but I did that new one. There's no hotel book built there, but it's just the facility. He said, it is unbelievable. And he showed me some videos of him on some waves and he went up with the Morbid Blokes and the Team Blakes and they booked the whole joint out and he said, he said, you just he said, the

They were in a mall that had an aquarium in it, like genuine sharks in the aquarium and then you're just walking past and buying something nothing.

Yeah, made it's remarkable, great place.

Yeah, So what are they doing in terms of rugby sevens? So what's what's going on there? What was was.

This just the start of Ruby Sea started the tournament, So, I mean their last big thing was the Olympics. So it was quite an interesting one because as always new seasons, new sort. After that end of the four year period, there's a new cycle. So yes, seven's kicks off, they go you know through they're down to Cape Town this week, but then they'll come to Perth, Hong Kong and I think end up Singapore and La So that's their tournament.

That's pretty cool. So you try to get to rugby seven's the Olympics tried.

Ye A keyword what happened? Maybe it's a hard game.

So it came into the Olympics twenty sixteen, probably before that. Arguably before that it was a little bit specialist, but not a special specialist as it is now. It's bloody hard, different energy source, different skill set. They are real generalists in what they have to do. They've got to pass, they've got to be super fit. They're all agile and a twenty two a fast, yeah, and twenty two years

Game and I went downhill from there pretty quick.

So is a gas?

What's that?

Did you? Is? It the amount of gas you have do you have to have to play sevens? Or is it the speed of the game.

What is it?

Well, I was a fit fifteen's player. I had a good engine in fifteen's footy. But in sevens it's the repeat speed and being fast but then being able to repeat it and repeat it, and then the skill set. The ball moves differently to you know, it's still tackle, it's still past, still scrum and line out, the things that we know about footy, but it's just the ball moves different and it's hard.

It's yeah, it's fast. I was underdone.

There's so much more space. Yeah, because there's less people obviously, but there's so much space and it looks like, you know, you get to run a lot further than would in a fifteen's game.

Yeah, yeah, a lot further than you would. And you know, I'd been playing a certain way for fifteen years and then I had to try and undo that, undo that sort of subconscious way of how I entered the field, and I struggled.

I struggled, so I got better.

As I think if I had a little bit longer, we would have got a bit closer. But no, not to be it would have been cool. The guys end up going coming forth in the Olympics, so it would have been nice, But no, no, dice.

One of the one of the Rooster's recent recruits, which is the team on the I on the board of is Mark. He played in the rugby sevens in in the Olympics and Paris Mark and a W a Q And I cannot spell the rest of his name, and I cannot.

Brounce it.

No longer ne to us, and he's How do you think, because you know between the two has been a lot of switching. You know, we had Joseph Lee recently he's gone that way to rugby, and now we've got someone like Mark and rugby league. How do you think that sort of transition occurs. I always thought someone like Rocky Elson would have been a great roguy league player. I just I just thought it's something about him. I think you would have been too tough. You've got to be.

Going rugby union to rugby league.

Well, I think I think it takes Oh well, I think Mark Marky's the I mean the picture boy for it.

I mean, his first game is unbelievable.

I played heaps with Mark and I think the gift that Marky has well, he played a little bit of league growing up, well, a lot of league growing up, but his athletic ability, he's able to get leap. You know, he's one of those guys kind of like Israel, right that just sort of levitates up. Everyone else jumps, but they just glide up.

And have hang time. And I loved how hungry he was.

For some of his carries off the line. You know, he goes plays what is a Holden cup The game's below. So he's managed by the same manager that I am, so I was seeing some of his cut performances and then you know, his debut there for the Roosters and it's going to you know, he was carrying those hard ones off the off the try line. Look, I don't think there's anywhere to hide on the rugby league field. Can you watch a game of Origin and I don't think there's.

A tougher game.

Orange you know played like and you know played a lot of rugby and rugby is a tough game, but it's tough in a different way. I think rugby league is probably tougher and.

There's no hiding.

Well you carry, You've got to carry off your off your try line like you've got five guys after you and you can't you can't hide.

You know the play is going to come your side. I don't know.

It looks I would love to have a crack at it, but yeah, it looks. It's a brutal sport.

How about the other way? So Joseph Sali's has now gone from rugby to playing for Australia. Anything has been going. It was looking at that first two games.

Again similar to Markie right, like he's he played a fair bit of union at school. Was that one of the great big rugby schools in in Sydney.

Yeah?

Uh, And obviously that whole week around that England week, I was I was very surprised that he was selected big call to make, and he did so well. Like man kid again, has that ability to levitate, has that time in the air, looks like an incredible athlete, looks

So I mean he is going to be going to be immense.

You mentioned is he israelh flow and I just want to touch on that for a second, if you don't mind, I don't want to get into politics, but let's call it the politics of censorship. You would remember what happened.

I've forgotten actually completely.

I'm going to remind you, but Israel sort of like got outed playing at the highest level of rugby union. I don't even know what he's doing now, but one of the most was seeing like rugby rugby or rugby lee doesn't really matter rugby, you know, competitors that are both both codes. Ever, shown how easiest is to fall out with the administration of a game and how relevant is the administration and if you're a player, do you have to conform or what's the deal.

It's an interesting I mean, that is such a broad topic, right because who are the most supported I guess entities in the world. Is actually the athlete, not the teams a lot of the time. So the biggest followed and supported people around the world, your Ronaldo's or your long bron James's or you know, people within the teams, the stories within the not the teams themselves. I mean you're maybe a man you or you know a Yankees or

But do you think there's a level of or should there be a level of responsibility to a sports person who is getting paid good money that cuts across their own belief system? Do you think is that? I mean, is that a fair thing? Do you think explain that more to me? Like Israel's view on homosexuality relative to his religious beliefs, which he seems to be fairly strident about, there was an expectation that he didn't take that into the public are in it because he had he's a

Well, it is important, But how that's managed, because again we're talking about athletes who represent a community, and that's a good thing as long as it's you know, a healthy, positive discussion and you know, so how that's communicated. You want different that's the great thing about a team. You've got different personalities and represent different things. And but the communication and how that's then portrayed is probably the discussion that you know, I'm not sure who's nailing it at

It's tricky water, it really is.

You know, in some respece it can stuff someone's career. But a lot of people just say, listen, I get it. I'll hold my views myself. I've got my views of my community views. I'll just put my I'll prosecute my community view, my view within my own community, and I'll

I'll do it.

My career is more important, and I'm just going to fall in line and do what I'm told.

Well, what's your what You've got to ask yourself, what's your hierarchy of? You know, what do you want to achieve?

If you want to achieve you know, I guess disagreement with a coach, or do I want to fall in line because I want to make the team, or do I want to and I'm not saying that was my situation.

Or you've got to.

Choose where you value your things and then whatever is at the top you're going to go after that. I think that's that's the simple way of doing it. That's interesting, so and I think I sort of agree with that. Not never been in that position, but like I think I agree that that seems to be the most practical outcome. In other words, if you choose a path, then just that's your path. Don't worry about the consequences because you can't complain about the consequences if you choose that path.

At the end of the day.

Well, you've got to accept whatever they're going to be, right, because you can't you can't choose what the outcome is going to be.

That's what we like as athletes.

I mean, you you want to try and control as much as you possibly can control, but you're never going to know what the fallout is in a game sense, on the field, you never know what the fallout is going to be, you know, off the field, you never know what people are going to take this conversation for even as an example, and then how that's going to go. So yeah, I think got to be comfortable in the position or the stance that you take.

But then after the fact, that's what reviews about.

Like you see that week to week in sport you see that, and like I talked about, if someone makes a mistake or if someone you get good feedback. Okay, well do I want to do that again? Do I not want to do that again? What would I change? How do I want to go? Do I to change my values or my hierarchy after that? You know, So that reflection and review is important, but you've got to make a choice at the end of the day, don't you.

And that comes down to action.

Let's have a look at who Michael who was growing up? Manly kid?

Yep, local school.

Where do you go to school?

So I went to school in Chatswood, went high school in Chatswood. Just wanted to get me off the.

Beaches, I think, So stay school or a Raby school? Yeah, same piece, same yeah, so good. Yeah, not a big Rugby school, but a Rugby school.

Mum, would you wanted to get away from the Lord and beach?

Did you?

You know what's what they say about and although they also say now about the Southern Shop, and they also now say and they're definitely missaying about these for a long time. So but for sure Mum wanted to get you away from the beach scene.

Yeah, well I think so.

Yeah, I mean when we talk about it now, there was an element of you know being I mean Chuts was right on the train line. There, you'd get exposure to different things. It was a good school day school, not a not a boarding like I had to travel a bit to get there, you know, from Choloroid Platto, so we weren't in Manly.

So you're on the Plato like you're right in the heart of the Northern.

Beaches, thick of it mate.

Yeah, so surfer surfer you're serving that, Yeah, surfing then.

Who were in the were also in the surf club?

Did Manly Surf Club?

Manly Surf Club? Okay, so you're on the beach weekends then whenever you get a opportunity to go and have a ride of the board. Mum was pretty intuity then because she knows where she knows that she knew, I should say, the the seduction of that whole lifestyle. Yeah, what it brings with it, you know, drugs, party loose. You're a kid at this stage, you're only twelve thirty and you go in to high school.

Yeah no, well, I mean yeah, there's elements of the stuff that you talk about anywhere you go, you know, rugby teams or surf clubs or whatever. But there's also the other stuff around surf club the around fit, healthy guys and girls getting out. It's an early like early morning community because the ocean is the best in the morning, you know, so you're spending your time on the beach, you're staying healthy. Like I think that that's probably some of the values that a surf club has.

Like I'm back down there now.

I train with a bunch of guys on a Tuesday morning, ranging from seventy down.

I think I'm the youngest down there now.

So when I turn up there and it's just you know, old, everything's got rust on a gym on a Tuesday morning, and when my knees are a bit cranky, I've got no excuse.

Mates.

So there's a few older fellas in there. So it's cool to be part of that because now I'm not playing in a team. In that sort of team environment. It's kind of like this little little guys group that gets up early and trains on a five point fifteen on an on a Tuesday morning.

How good? How good?

Is that too?

As good? Especially the old guys. I'm one of the old guys. So you were you surprise? So what point did you realize that you could play footy?

Look?

I represented a lot of rep teams growing up. I was competitive younger of an older brother, so he's eighteen months older than me, so everything we did was competition.

Mate.

So like you know, if we're out in the surf and I see him catch a good wave, I'm not looking because he might check in and you know he's got one up on me. And you know, we didn't play a lot of footy in the backyard. But you know, even stuff like we're playing, you know, PlayStation games, you'd have to play together because if we're playing against each other it would end in not fights, so we aren't fighters, but arguments and just you know, like a saltiness for

We always you always solid.

Yeah, I was doing well.

My dad's of a palm originally, so he came out and landed in Manly and as you know poems do, or you do when you turn up somewhere. The beautiful thing about rugby is you get involved in that community. And you know, he credits being involved in that sort of manly circle is giving him, you know, a life out here and his network and his friends and you know, meeting my mum eventually, who was from Concord in the West.

You know, so.

We very much, you know, that's why they we're part of the surf club, part of the Maley Marlins and that sort of thing. And in terms of becoming good at footy, like I think I loved the Wallabies and the Wallabies when I was growing up. Ninety nine World Cup two thousand and one, I go and watch them beat the Lions in the Third Test, which we've got coming out next year, which is hugely exciting. Two thousand and three, I went to the semi final where they beat the

So was there somebody that you were looking up to? Like, I mean when I was a kid, I was in rugby league terms, I always idolized as a couple of particular individuals who were playing in the cannery banks and combat those in those days, and to be all kid like, you know, I sort of pretended to be them. And was there some of you idolized in rugby terms?

Yeah?

There was probably three players, so George greg and Stephen Larkham. Now the nine ten. I've never played nine to ten, But I just I thought that combination was amazing. But the guy in particular that played my position was George Smith. So George Smith, he actually went to school right near my house at Chromer, so I was a Colorio Plato grew up. He was down at Cromer at high school.

It was just amazing.

So he was down at the Brumbies and I finished school and went down to the Brumby side, you know, a season and a bit with George, which was really cool.

So was that around It was Timmy McGann around those days? Was Tim mcgahann, No, No, it wasn't. He was before you. Yeah, he's much before you. Okay, So a couple of because did you ever get do you ever get because he went off to play West Tigers? Did you ever get produced in the thing I go play rugby league?

No? Not not.

I was looking at you, I can see you and playing at as a back roll or as a lock.

Yeah.

I would have loved to, yeah, but I was so hell bent on being a part of a Wallaby team and a war Tarz team and trying to get take try and win a World Cup, try and win a blooders Low. And it wasn't until later in my career that you go, what could I have had a little lock at that? But yeah, you know it's easy to say now, but I think the right time would be like what a maybe Mark and Joseph for doing it well younger than.

I have in the twenties.

Yeah, but like you know, mid.

Twenties, twenty six, twenty seven, you're right, physical leader, at a really good spot to do it. You're hungry, you know what your game and mentally your game can look like. Yeah, there's going to be different elements of what you need to do on the field, but mentally you know what you're about. I reckon that would have been a good time to do it.

So who is your favorite player to play with.

I've got plenty of Bernard Foley, Rob Horn, Nick Pipps, Adam Ashley Cooper.

Why pick one? Unto me? Why?

Oh? Good?

Like they're good friends, good friends. But I loved playing with guys who were consistent and competitive. They would just get on the field and it meant.

A lot to them in that they want to win.

Yeah, I wanted to win. That's infectious to be around.

Like there was a there's a group of guys you know, rugby hasn't been you know really, I mean the top of the log for a for a fair while now, so part of a crew going hey, let's do our absolute utmost to try and get there now. It was a huge exciting prospect and it was tough, you know, like it's super competitive to try and get there and stay. There's a difference between you know, one off good good win here. But to have consistency over a long period

But how so because you know Austray and Ruby starting to show some signs now, but prior to more recently it was a leak looking a bit sorry. How important is it for four or five guys in aside to say we're going to win this, We've got to get it,

Oh, I tried to, tried to. I don't think we didn't get it right.

Definitely part of a group that got it right once and almost twice. It got into the final of twenty fifteen World Cup. We won super title in twenty four team with a bunch of those guys that I mentioned. You know, so, look, it's going to take everyone within a squad to win something proper.

Does it mean everyone's going to get on board, everyone's gonna have the same magnitude or is it just is there a small group that sort of drags everyone together along with it like a comet. You know, there's the comment there's a tail and the gravity of the comet pulls the rest. I mean, because I can't imagine trying to get fifteen guys or a whole squad whatever that is, twenty odd twenty odd guys all on the same page, like all beers keen to do something as the next bloke.

Yeah, I think a spine's relevant in terms of, you know, the importance of having you know, the right positions on the real influential positions on the field lockdown.

So I think, what are they? What are they in rugby?

Oh, I mean at this day and age, it'll be a tight head prop tight head lock one or two. Good back rowers nine to ten are always going to be important. And then I'm probably gonna get slaid for this, but you know, because everyone every position is important.

But yeah, then you know.

A backfield player, backfield player being sorry, a winger, fullback wing actually probably know you wingers. You could probably actually a center, a really good center twelve thirteen center.

Yeah, really a center. It's not a fullback.

Well, I mean that's.

Interesting because you know, rugby leg is a bit opposite them because you get to fed the ball every fifth tackle or the fullback, so you need something that could take the ball up every every fifth tackle. But there's a different game. But rugby union a center because that's interesting because they've got they've gone and sign of Joseph as a center and I'm just wondering whether that is the game plan, that is the thinking right now.

For him As a center, well, I mean he's got the athletic prowess to play anywhere.

Yeah, I mean it's one of the luxuries. Bad enough.

He's big enough, strong enough, agile enough, looks switched on enough to be able to get it all together.

Center's really hard. Defensively, you're very You have.

To be a very as a defender.

You mean as against and well both both, but as a defender you are a critical part in communicating what's going on. You've got a bit more time, so you've got vision, so you've got to make decisions around you know, you know the numbers you have where you are on the field. So it's a really nuanced position.

That's thirteen. Yes, so senator's called thirteen. Yeah.

At center, you're calling defensive positions. You're saying, hang on, move across here. You mean, from that point of view as a team that's not called the team manager, but as a defensive manager like full back and rugby league is that person because he's always direking the position or she if its general w but where he's drenking everyone into position because they can see everything from there. But you're saying center and rugby union is really important in

Yeah, and like I mean the thing, I don't want to say, you have to have those positions, but you know, I mentioned those guys up front because if you don't have a good set piece, you're not going to win test Rugby mentioned your nine to ten, the quarterbacks of the game, they get the most touches, most hands on the ball, so that's obviously going to be a spine position. And then your communication from yet you're back three, all your centers, and I'm not saying it's solely a thirteen

So is it do you think it's important in raby union to have I don't like using the word because rugby union is even more worry about this sort of stuff, but like can enforce up front? Oh mate, I'd love to have an enforcer in every team. Yeah, like someone and enforce of being someone. Everybody's going shit, I don't last thing I want to do is have to pack down against this guy or run at this guy or have him run at me.

Yeah.

Yeah, So I think I think Bobby Valentini is our number six or eight at the moments becoming that for Australia traditionally a Whye Cliff, Parlou Toddai Kefu, guys like that. But I think, like growing up, I remember almost going to play club rugby and the Wallabies sometimes had to come back down and play club rugby. And there was a player, Dan Vickerman, big second row up and he was a guy that just took people like me out

Oh yeah, big guy, Yeah, like one of the big locks, you know, big locks. And that was his role, just to find you at a run.

And I'm like, before the game, I'm thinking, and I'm playing for man leaguers going to I think he was Sydney Union player. You're thinking, like he's taking up mental space before you've even played the game. Yeah, and you're looking for him, Well you're looking for him, or if you're not, and he finds you in the game, well you're definitely looking for him after that. So, without doubt,

Because that's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. I mean, rules, there's a lot of rules in ruby. You and I get confused. But if the point you just made about big men, what's interesting about that? And and by the way, Joseph Swalley actually suffered this in the State of Origin game because he's he's six foot five and he tackled someone who's much much smaller whether he could could have pulled out of the tackle or not, but end up having head contact.

At club level you can there's a bit more as a bit more at a test level. Yeah, but if there's any chin yeah, strife esally so do you.

Think that.

It's not an as not as interesting a game because it's a contact game. If the big men can't do their thing and take some risk at that, there might be some head knock. In other words, I'm a big guy, I'm six foot five. I try to tackle you. You're not six foot five. There's a risk in there that I can't adjust because you might just fall down a little bit, and I can't just quick enough because all

Well, yeah, I mean safety needs to be first and foremant.

How do we balance this stuff up there?

But you're putting yourself onto the field in a contact sport, so there's going to be an element of risk and going to be an element of getting it wrong. Like you said, there's no perfect way to balance a guy that's five foot nothing and a guy.

That's six foot six.

There's going to be some disparity there now in terms of the recklessness, and you take a risk, you make a call, well, you've got to try and make sure that calls right. That's like trying to take a shot at goal. You've got to you've got to aim up and make sure it goes between the sticks. I think it's the same with getting a shot appropriately, and I think it can be played safe. But we've also got to accept the fact that as soon as you are running into each other at full pace, there's an element

I think so, except that I don't think it was reckless. I don't think there was any like. You can either say an individual intended to hurt somebody and we don't know what anyone's intent is because we can't look in their brain, but or they were reckless to the outcome.

I think he was pretty It was pretty clear he was trying to get a hold of him, but he wasn't trying to head and he.

Totally was trying to him out, but hit him in the chest as opposed to him in the head. The question becomes it becomes a value judgment. Then the referee makes a decision, actually climate a decision that as far as he was concerned, it was either intentional or reckless. Either way you're off. But then the game just completely turns. We don't have in Reragul league where you have in Reaby Union, I think it's like ten or twenty minutes later you can send a replacement on.

Yep.

Yeah. Is that it just a test level or is that everything across everything? So which makes sense that that's to me quite a sensible thing. I mean in raby leion needs to think about that sort of stuff. But because at the end of the day, the game is a game of entertainment, and who are we entertaining. We're entertaining the audience, the spectators, and half the audience. Let's make the assumption, but half the audience goes on, half the audience goes the other team, especially in the state

Yeah, twenty minutes. Yea, my legs are gone.

It's so if the player, if the player goes off and it's deemed a red card, so he will get a yellow card, which is ten minutes. And if they go no, no, that's the severity is worse than that, he can't come back on. You can bring a different player on after that twenty minutes.

After twenty minutes. So during the twenty minute period, the fourteen side is that they're cooking their legs and every other part of their body, especially if you're up front, so you're getting cooked. The guy comes on fresh, then you do the person comes on fresh and say, okay, it's good, but it doesn't account for the forteen other players that are just completely stuffed. So all of a sudden, I have a and this is a general question I

Well, I think there needs to be a level of acceptance that it's a dangerous game that you can try and make safer. So what I mean by that is you're like you're running into each other at full pace. There's an element of risk, but that's kind of why guys play it, Aside from some of the I meant, some guys over in Dubai just in the last week. They're forty five playing rugby still just casual ats love it,

So they have a good product. Okay, yeah, good product. That's got rugby union. What does rugby union got to do to get an equivalent product?

Okay?

So su Ali He's game in England was a pretty good product, his first his debut down to the wire, good contest.

Soft hands too amazing.

Yeah, he's got great finess, doesn't he.

He jumps up and just handle the ball over like literally put it into his hands like that.

Can I just talk on that week like that is a big test, Like that's a big test, no matter what you're talking about.

Playing at Twickenham, it's always a big test. But to do that.

Without playing a professional game of rugby union, Yeah, he's played massive games of rugby league and whatnot. As a debut game at in a tough spot, we're talking about the s as being a tough spot and he's got some great communicators around him in some of the players with him, Lenny Katau particularly and Andrew Kellaway in that backfield. But that was an incredible performance, you know out the gate like that was remarkable.

Actually, and a lot of people I know saying they want to watch the next game because of that, because a we won. That helps you.

But but also I've beating the Poms.

We do and we haven't been doing it very often, but you know, winners agrinners, as you know, but watching a lot of people watch the second game because of hoping that just would be selected or at least get off the bench and play, which he did. But like that's that. Do you think this is a strategic move then by rugby unions, the austrain rugby union, that is a strategic way of getting people back to the rugby

I mean, if it does do you think it will do? I think it will. I think he's going to be a star in the game. I think is physically too good, not too but then injury, how the team functions. We know that one guy can't carry a team in union or league or a AFL, so you've got to have a good team around you. They're starting to see some great shoots in that team, well coached, starting to get confident, so things like that. The thing that we know we've got coming is lines is a massive injection of cash

If he years. If he is, like he's got a five year deal, Oh okay, then he is. So you know he's got to be managed well.

I think, you know, you take a look at some of our you know, other codes around the world or codes in our own country who manage top line play as well. We can't just expect him to play eighty minutes every week, train hard, blah blah blah. How can we get the best out of him? And you know, Joe Schmid, who's at the top at the moment, who's the Wallaby coach, has a really good understanding of that. Coming from an island background. He managed to do that with an island team and turn them into a well

So if Australia, how do we get I mean, I mean I had Oils Stevie Oyles and he didn't hold back.

Now, that's what for me thirty.

Is But is it because parent? Is it because I'd like to get your view on this. Is it because parents are starting to think both games rugby league and rebunion are too violent or too much contact? And therefore does that actually mean is correct that we should stop the tackling no matter what that's such that it might cause a head injury.

Time will tell in terms of what the impact of head injury is going to be. No one actually knows for certain. There's definitely elements of you know that contact to the head's going to have an adverse effect on your body, like many other things. But how that impacts individuals and how that all works within the ecosystem of

Right or the wrong way.

But until that point, it's everyone's own decision, everyone's body, and everyone's way of going about their lives. There's plenty of risk out there, and risk usually leads to fun being hard, you know, to a certain extent. If you don't take any risk, you're sitting in your house in a bubble.

But parents made the decision when the kids are young. So your parents made a decision about you. You're going to play footy because that's what your dad did and you're part of the manly scene. Blah blah blah. But you're if let's say your mom said we should he said to your dad in relation to Michael, are you listen, I don't want him to grab you know, brain damage. He's going to play AFL, He's going to play soccer.

Well, AFL is not a click I understand that soccer, they can't head her anymore.

So, but they.

AFL promoted as being less contact. But by the way, this is just as many concussions in AFL. This is a Ruby League and Roby Union. But let's just let's just hypothetical. Mum says. Mum says, we're going to he's going to play soccer. School's got soccer. You would never have got to it. You got to a rugby union obviously, because you start off for soccer and you become part of a soccer thing. You might play for Australian in the.

Fat so it's probably fair.

They might not definitely not so so. And then therefore Raby Union would have missed out on Mike Loper, which means they missed out on a player, a good player, you know, an Australian player, which means they've got less resources to excel. What So therefore I think both for Robulara and for Roby Union to less. We said AFL that all this discussion about concussion, and by the way,

I think the I can see you've got a few injuries.

I'm looking at your left you're right here here, that's like it's definitely Caulifler. The right one is about the same left front. You've got a few scars of the top of your head. You got a nice cross on the top of your head, like it looks like like someone's gone away their swashbuckling pioneer.

Or the eyebrows of copped it mate, they're going to be rolled over soon. The eyebrows.

You get a few scars going down. Yeah, yeah, I suppose you know you've been in the midst of it. What do you think about the ex extential threat to the game that you love.

The game that I love. Yeah, it's it's a real challenge. I think that the steps that are being taken are really important. The management of head knocks has been even in my short time, you know, in the last fifteen years,

Yeah, the guys that they're they're they're they measure every impact, yes, and in a sense got a little censor and sends it back to a control center.

Which again is not perfect yet because what might affect you may not affect me, or what affects me might not affect you. So how does the threshold become safe?

But they can build up baselines for you, okay, and they can say, okay, Michael got knocked out and he was sick for three weeks vomiting with about migrain headaches as a result of this level of impact. Mark got hit the same level of impact. But they didn't have the same effect on Mark. Therefore, for Michael, we've gore have watched when he trains. Next time he gets hit like that, we've got to pull him aside and say, Okay, you're not playing this weekend.

So really lean on data there.

It's data driven you and you've got to build up that. It's not universal databas data a relation to yourself in the individuals, and I think that's great. I'm all for it. By the way, I'm not against it. I'm all for modernizing the game.

I'm trying.

I don't want to kill the game, but modernize the game around the contact. Because this game, your game, the Ruguy League game, is about contact. It's not about guys making breaks. It's we love the contact. We want to see a clean contact. Yeah, you want to see clean contact. Otherwise you go watch UFC, which again is like a product to go see it for a certain reason. But you want to see someone gets you know, smashed in union or.

League cleanly dominators. Yes, that's like and that's great, that's the feeling you want.

Like the one.

Yeah, we've talked about it a bit, but that hits not the one We want to see the one in Origin, So you want to see a clean one because then everyone's back up, they're bouncing their feet. You've got fourteen or thirteen or fifteen players still on the field and the contest goes on and then that just then it becomes the back and forth like we saw in the third Origin. So yeah, it's of course it's going to be a threat, and it should be a threat, and

Risk because it's interesting and I've been reflecting on this for a while now, and I think rugby league has actually has actually I don't know if they did it on purpose, but it has adapted to this process of what public opinion is and rugby league has become, which is why we're getting a lot more Islander players playing the game or fit into the game a lot better. So if you get back twenty five thirty years ago or even back further, it was just big tough guys,

Well, I don't think so, I think and I hope not. And the reason I hope not is that rugby fits in the short, fat stubby guy and Israel Philao into the game and as And that's the really difficult thing with you know, the argument of the entertainment side of things.

And you know.

What the game of rugby is, because yes, scrums. You know, I've sat on the side of a lot of scrums. And it's boring to be on the field when you've got a lot of repacks and there's ten minutes which is an eighth of the game that's spent on repacking a scrum.

Yeah, that's not a great product.

Or there's line outs and they're confusing around what the what the penalty's blown for because it's a lot of the time left to interpretation. But within that you're fitting different athletes who are really critical. So you can have Israel flour Sua Lee, you know, Whend will come back and Lottie come back, all fit them in the same back line. But if they're scrum sucks, they're going to have a really tough day of the office. I don't care who you are.

If you sitting out there doing nothing, and.

That, you know, lends itself to the next thing, and that's you know what we took what are probably a thread of you know, all the codes in Australia are but you know when rugby union isn't doing well is it's not fast enough, it's not enough enough ball in playtime. So you know, test rugby thirty to forty minutes. Forty minutes would be a lot of ball in play rugby time, whereas league averages over fifty minutes I believe, or something

In the UK it was what an arm wrestle, you know, what an absolute.

Physical Australian media comparatively to the UK. The UK I remember because someone sent me going, you know, and I saw the article. Oh geez, that can be And I'm not having a crack at Australian media. But what we've got here is three codes playing consecutively across the course

You know this game's boring? Could?

Could that be an explanation therefore? Why you know, England, Ireland in Wales become much better relative to Australia because the style of the game and the dynamics of the game are much more acceptable over there than they are here because you know, like you say, like you can watch a fast moving rugby league game here, you can watch an AFL game back and forth, like just literally up and down the field all day. You know, they run all round twenty everyone runs twenty odd commetters a game,

Is well, I mean there's less codes over there.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Less to choose from, You're less to choose from. Therefore that as a result being less to choose from, you much more patient as an audience and media. You're much more patient in terms of what I've what you're prepared to allowed to happen in the game because you're not saying and we can go down the road and watch a game of AFL because it's really quick and I can watch it, you know, because all of us have got ADHD all audiences these days,

Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that. You know, Steve I think went pretty hard when he was here. Steve Hoyle was yeah, and look, I think there's been a range of reasons why we haven't made There's been a couple of things that have happened. We were very successful late nineties or early nineties, late nineties, early two thousands, and since then a lot of teams have caught up, caught up to Australia, New Zealand, England really through that time. So it's now teams one to ten World Rugby are

So if that's interesting. You say about the Melbourne So you're saying less teams is actually better.

Well, I'm saying the right amount of teams is okay, right, An I'm not saying less is better, yes, because then you'd say one team is good, But I don't think that's the that's what we'd want.

So no, And is it? And do you think it's important that we play we have in super Rugby, we have teams coming out of rugby cities or rugby states, as opposed to trying to jam something into Melbourne, which is not really a rugby and in place.

I'm actually interested in your opinion on this because we are a country flooded with different options, you know, So in terms of a business thing, do you stick to where you're strong? Do you try and spread Australia thinks you you know, Australian rugby or we've tried so long to capture the West and it's bloody hard to.

Capture the West, you know.

I mean AFL has done well to get get in there with GWS, but you know, certainly rugby league strain you know, as a good stranglehold on that area. So you know, you potentially you go out broad or you go outside and do you lose where you're strong. And I'm not saying we've done that or that's what's happening or should happen. But there's almost a question to TV TV does drive it.

It's like so like so audiences in Melbourne are important to broadcasters because broadcasts are just sting to broadcasters in Now I'm broadcasting something on at prime time, I need to be able to collect the Melbourne audience. Like rugby league, for example, is a good example. You know they want to have you watch rugby league. If you look at the way the draw goes for Friday night games, you get a lot of Brisbane games because Brisbani play a

Well you're actually getting tackled from three to sixty. Yeah, So the good thing with the rugby league and union is it's up and down. I know you're bracing your next you're getting prepared. Unless you're getting a which we've all had a good shot from the side, someone just makes a great read and you don't see it coming. They're the horrible ones, but that would happen a lot

Basically they feels in enemy your what you're saying, I didn't say that, Yes, yes you did. So you're involved with recovery. What's what you're an ambassad from what you deal with you.

As initially investor and then as I'm starting to work out what the next chapter is, Yeah, I'm doing some workers their health, eye performance and well want to sci plane recovery Recovery is two things.

First sip. First of all, it's a couple of things.

Now, first with someone's go cv I, r cv I recovery.

Yeah, so it was recovery. We rebranded for a couple of reasons due to Payton's in the US. But yeah, it's a retail for high performance and wellness. So sauna, ice bath, you know, compression float tanks, hyperbaric chamber, some reoxing machines which help with VO two. So right, a range of services there that you know has started in Couldie with Stephen Hoyles in twenty nineteen, has since gone to Cronulla, Manly and soon to be in the CBD just off Martin Place there and the US and Toronto.

So I think, isn't it La?

Is it a c on La Homosa Beach? So opening host of beach next year?

Right? Next year?

Right?

And who's behind it now? I mean who's behind Recovery the business itself?

So the three founders Steve Hoyles, Nick Bardetta and Trevor Fowss.

And trev Elson being the Trevvelson from Investable Yes, so he's got a fund, yes, and he's a man Randy supporter isn't he? Is he a Rondy supporter.

He's originally through the through the Queensland, but yeah, he's been here for for He's part of the Randwick mafia.

Now yeah, mafia corect and And I notice that there's a strong franchise in the one in Kuji. Is that part of it is the idea to get a plarties which is the strong franchise plarties type business as part of the recovery systems in other words, and you can go and do a plarties class and then walk straight into the recovery. Is that part of what's going on there? Is that the thinking?

So two different models, so strong franchise based yep, but that was forty five that Stephen managed and managed for years and have now changed too strong right, So but that's not the intention with every site, you know. I think the other the other side of things that that recovery is doing is a powered by recovery. So we've got a mobile unit that will go around until events. Yeah cold bath, yeah, cold bath sauna, so that hopefully going over to the mobile mobile units.

So wow, they've gone a bag of a trailer so yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so that'll be that'll be interesting.

And then a lot of buildings with their end of trip facilities wanting wanting to give their employees wellness so we can come in and consult and do some bespoke for business. And we've actually put one in Strong Polarates up up in Queensland as well, so that's great. We've just launched a hydration product as well, so.

Bits of drink obviously, yeah.

Yeah, sash at the moment and soon to be ready to.

Drink as in as in sodium, potassium and magnesium. Is that we're talking about? Yeah, any sugar.

No sugar, mate, good man.

I'm glad about that because that's important, just having those three salts too, because hydration is such a big deal, especially if I'm going to sit money in for its horns. Yeah, I'm going to walk out de hydrated. So I've tried the one that's Goujie Weills invited me and my sign up. Then we went up there and I'm not never sure whether I should go infrared water second, or so go the cold plunge and go to the infrared. What's your go to?

Well, I mean the traditional, So we try and do the traditional or is it infrared.

So you get warm up first.

So I mean, well, it depends what you want to get out of it, right, So I think the morning, like a lot of people like to finish on cold. So do your hot and then finish on cold. But what we see is, you know, within the half an hour or hour slots is people go hot to cold, hot to cold or or you know, a lot of I think, you know, my mum and my wife included, like to finish on hot because they want to come out of their freezing.

See that's funny, guys. I went we went hot cold, No, it's we went cold, hot and cold.

And the pain first straight into the cold because to.

Get into that. So we got in and but I actually felt a bit cold for the for a couple more hours. It took me because I like, it took me a bit of time my blood to get back into my system. But I felt amazing, like I felt like I just leapt for ten hours. My body felt really good, like really good. Yeah, and I was only in the water for maybe I don't know, three or four minutes.

Yeah.

Yeah. And my hand I couldn't put my hands in because I've got bad I thros and my thumbs and I could really feel it when I put my hands, so I actually had a bit girly. Not to say, girls do this, but I was being a girl. I have my hand out of the water and just sort of above the water, I should say, but I had the rest of my body in it, and I think, you know what's amazing for me is that all of a sudden, there are certain people in this in this world and in particular in our country, and people I'm

Yeah? No, that So, I mean I hated it for the majority of my career.

Towards the back end, I go, okay, well, not that I finish old or anything like that in terms of a rugby player, but I needed to start if I wanted to train how I wanted to play, and I wanted to just be consistent on the field, and I felt like I needed to start upping that.

And so I mean there was certainly, you know, it's good for the inflammation.

It gives you that, you know, a bit of a physiology boost, like when you get out there and doorphins seem to kick.

But yeah, I think that what you're saying. You know, you're like, oh, yeah, like in a weird way.

It's weird.

I did that. I did that. Yeah, got it feel good? You feel parted.

So I mean, ideally like if you can have an if particularly you've got your own but cold in the morning because your body's heating up. So your body's cool overnight, let you sleep and your body starts heating up as the day goes on. So you want to you want to sort of get in the cold in the morning

And that's proven. You know.

I think one of the things with COVID is people you know, really started to look at the longevity side of things and what can they do aside from you know, once they get back out.

There to make them feel better and you stay healthy.

And then sauna at night's great, so it will heat you up, but your body's going through this pattern of where you're starting to cool down and get ready for sleep, So it almost spikes that that feeling and that sensation, and you know, when you sweat again, releases in doorphins, gets your toxins out, everything like that. So yeah, that's sort of you can definitely do them complimentary because it

And did you ever think would you ever thought yourself if you go back to when you're twenty twelve, thirteen years ago, nineteen twenty, that you would be having this conversation talking about cold plunge, not because you would have done nice bas for training or after games and stuff like that, but his career that you be talking about inference horners and dumb ice baths or cold plunge for mental mental recovery, physical recovery. No outside of footy.

No, and go for a surf, We'll go hang out with my mates. Not so yeah, I have yeah a few too many beersh Yeah. No, I've got a sawn in my backyard.

Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, not only is a good place to feel good and everything, but we got two young kids. So me and my wife jump in there at the end of the day and just have a debrief on the on the ship that they give us, you know, after they finally get put down at night.

So no, there's there's some great benefits to it.

And and just finally, I mean, because you're in the you're in this game. Now, how often to get their proper health benefits out of a sauna? How let's call it an inference one for the moment. How many times a week do you need to do it?

Now?

For how long? What? What is a sort of recommended period?

Well, there's a I mean, there's a couple of different ways to look at it.

So there's you know, your humans of the world give out great information on that, and they're the they're the standard, and he does a lot around you know that sort of stuff. So there's there's different ways to do it. So to do it you know less, but you do a bigger hit.

So is it for thirty minutes or forty minutes?

Well yeah, yeah, but you could almost you can do like a twenty minute, have a little rinse, go back in, do another twenty minutes, have a rinse, and you know, finish off or you know shorter whatever time works or do. You can do fifteen minutes a day daily, but your body does pick up a little bit of a resilience, but it gets used to tis yeah, a little bit,

And finally, just on Hope Barrick, just what does hyperbaric chamber? I mean, it's it's explain what we're talking about dye.

So you put yourself into a high, high oxygen needed environment.

So you just explain what it looks like.

I mean, well, the ones that we have in our facilities, and they can look different, but we have I mean, mate, it's like sitting in it's sitting in this chair effectively that you can recline in, but it's a little dome around you, and you climb a little desk. Yeah and closed, so you know, you shut this thing. You put a sort of a bar over the top, and your press

Really good for post surgery.

So yeah, big, big in Japan, and a good study in Japan, like yeah, that type of environment. So yeah, it's it's it's that's a really really popular product.

Well I'm not going to buy Harper a better chamber, but I've been thinking about it, to be honest. I mean, I don't know if the respence, I would have a clue, but I haven't be thinking about it because you know, when you have to manage. I got a million injuries that are accumulated over many years and a body, well used, body will used, well lived in. But I'm I want to say thank you, legend, and you are a legend.

By the way, No, he's gone, he's gone, he's gone. He's good because I don't want to any trouble. No, he's over there.

But you're going to take over Romwick.

I'm not taking over Ramwick. No, No, I'll be I'll be staying in my lane.

They're going to go and be spreading the you know, doing their rugby thing and spreading the love over there in America and opening up the Toronto and La facilities. But yeah, very much. It's a great thing about the rugby community. Great thing about when you you know, are thinking about transitioning and what that sort of is going to look like post a career or whether that you know,

So that's true. By the way, the rugby union community is very tight.

Yeah. Yeah, I think sport community is in general.

I'm being involved with a few things post career that you know, athletes and businessmen and you know, whatever you all have transitions in life, and I think if you're willing to ask for a bit of help and how that looks, and keep an open mind like we talk about with you know, your siwall, ease of the world on the rugby pitch and it's you know, good things can happen.

Michael Hubert, thanks very much.

Thanks, I really appreciate this, but thank you