How student-staff partnership programs are transforming universities

Cassandra Iannucci and Alex Green are both part of Deakin's Students as Partners initiatives. In this episode, they discuss how, together, they're reshaping the way that students and staff collaborate. Putting equity and lived experience at the center and creating real change in higher education. From the lands of the Wudawurrung people, this is Stories of Wonder. Cassandra, Alex, welcome to "Stories of Wonder." - Thank you. - Thanks for having us. - Pleasure.

All right. Cassandra, let's start with you.

I'm hoping that, could you give us a simple overview of what the Students As Partners Initiative is and what it aims to achieve? - Sure. Really, at its course, Students As Partners or students have partnership shifts the focus from doing things for students to doing things with students. So it recognises the unique expertise that students bring and that's their lived experience.

And you engage in a collaboration which eventually and intentionally leads to better outcomes, more inclusive experiences, and things that are just more meaningful because they're made in co-decision making with students and staff together. - Yeah, right. And how did you first get involved with it?

- Well, (laughs) I've always been drawn to relational pedagogy. So the idea that we learn in relationship with each other, it's a community of practise really. And so it's a core pillar of my teaching and learning philosophy. And through also being introduced to ideas of decolonizing my practise, I was able to commit to thinking about how I understand power and voice and whose knowledge is valued within a teaching and learning context.

And so I would like to really just acknowledge our First Nations colleagues and how we can learn a lot from them about deep listening, about relationships and about community. And that's what student staff partnership is. So really, I came to it from a value of recognising my students as partners and thinking about how I can create a community and lean hard into relationships first as a grounding for then learning to occur. - Hmm. Alex, how did you get involved and what drew you into it?

- I first got involved in 2021. I joined the student's mentoring staff project as a student mentor. And that fed into a micro grant project with, I think, who is now the Digital Learning Futures team to look at redesigning the DeakinSync Online unit site to make it more accessible for students. - Mm. - I was looking for work that went beyond a lot of the traditional casual roles we think of as being for students. I think I'd pulled enough pints of Guinness by that point.

(group laughing) And I was also looking for a way to feel more connected to uni. I was an online student at the time, and I think for a lot of neurodivergent students, they feel that a lot of traditional work styles won't be suited for them. So the idea that this would not only be flexible and accessible for me as a student with autism, but directly valued my input was an exciting thing to be part of. And here I am all these years later. - Yeah, so you were an online student

when you heard about this? - Yes, back in the day. Yeah. - And how did you hear about it? - Through Deakin talent. So where students find out about listings, including work integrated learning and student roles at Deakin. So I was pretty habitually combing through that for something that I could do online. - Yeah. Cool.

Cassandra, what does an authentic student staff partnership look like in action? - This really good question. I think about, look, I think about student staff partnership as a relationship. And it is, and just like you would think about a good friendship or a colleague, it takes time to build trust. You don't start by diving into your deepest problem. - Mm. - You take time, you listen, you get to know each other. You have dialogue.

And it's in that space that you can then lean into curiosity and open up more meaningful dialogue and problem solving together. And it's the same when we're looking at authentic student staff partnership. It's built on trust. So oftentimes that takes time to establish. - Yeah. - It takes vulnerability because you need to show up as a whole human person if you're expecting whomever you're working with or establishing that partnership or relationship with, to also show up as a whole human person.

It has to be a shared learning space. So just like that reciprocity of, I'm showing up with vulnerability as well, and we're engaging in that dialogue. You're coming from a learner first perspective. So if you're coming into a student staff partnership and it's not genuine, you already have the answers or you know what you want the answer to be or what you want a co-created. And I'll say that in air quotes because this wouldn't be genuine.

- Yeah. - You already have what the outcome looks like in practise. So in order for it to be authentic, you need to come as a learner first. And again, we lean on our indigenous ways of knowing and our colleagues who have shared in the practise of partnership for tens of thousands of years. So it is a learner first perspective. It's relational, it's dialogic, and it's built on care fundamentally, isn't it? Where you care to know about the other person.

You care to know about what the student has to say. You care about their experience, you care about them as a person. So you're not only creating a space that nurtures a relationship, but you're caring. I think really at the heart of it, that is a genuine student staff partnership practise. It has to be built on that notion of care and compassion and community and trust. And it takes time to build and nurture. - Mm. And I guess like to be able to create spaces like that

in all of these kind of, I don't know, interactions, these shared sort of learning opportunities, it's not gonna be for every staff member or they need to be prepared to kind of do like, how does that work in, I don't know, onboarding the right staff members and matching them with the kind of the right students? - Mm. - What's that process like? - Yeah, it's a really good question.

What we have in the Students As Partners programme here at Deakin is really leading nationally because we have a variety of student staff partnership projects that all require different levels of investment, different capacities to engage in that genuine relationality.

And so therefore, different entry points really is how we like to talk about it here at Deakin, where a staff member who is curious and committed to recentering the student or the student voice in their practise, but doesn't yet feel confident that they can create that safe enough space or that they can show up with vulnerability if it challenges their traditional grasp on authority or controller power within the teaching and learning space.

They can come into one of our student staff partner programmes or initiatives that is a little bit of a lighter touch. - Mm. - So we can meet staff where they're at. And the same for students. So we have to rebuild trust with our students. And so we can't expect all students to feel comfortable diving into a deep relational practise with a staff member if there isn't that trust there.

- Yeah. - And so we can suggest a lighter touch partnership opportunity to start to build that trust in the staff partner or, and in the university system that it's genuinely here to listen and to co-create and to respond in decision making context to what the student lived experience is telling us. - Yeah, right. Cool. So there's a bit of a almost like, I don't know, you can try.

- Yeah. Not before you buy, but you can try a little bit and find your feet a little bit before you jump into something that might be a bit more weighty and meaty and see if you're ready to be vulnerable. Alex, tell us about a moment

where you saw your input directly influence a university process or decision that affects students. - I mean, look, I could point to points of impact in any of the projects I've been fortunate to be a part of. We've made adaptations to the variety of formats that students can view their learning resources in online. That was one I was very proud of. From that first micro grant.

We've seen a lot of adaptation to language from projects I've been part of, such as changes to the evaluate survey, which Cassandra and I have partnered on last year, changes internally to how we talk about study abroad opportunities for students. But I actually think the most tangible shift I've seen is in how the staff that I've partnered with interact with students moving forward.

I've been able to go on to partner with a lot of the staff leads that I've worked with in projects outside of Students As Partners. And just seeing the shift in how they show up to class and meet students where they're at, as Cassandra says to me is probably the most valuable. - Right. Are there any examples of like, I don't know how certain teachers or tutors have sort of changed their strategies on how to connect with some of their students? - I think it's more of an attitude.

As Cassandra said, it is partly about staff who are ready to be vulnerable. And I think seeing that we can all get very connected to the work that we produce. You know, when you're close to it, it's hard to see it objectively. So I think seeing staff be a little less defensive about what they're bringing to students and just giving students the opportunity to share their thoughts has been humbling, I would say. I think. Yeah. - Mm-hm. And Cassandra, how did these kind of initiatives come about?

Like the things that you can choose to have people partner on to, I don't know, change, is there student outreach prior? Do students express an interest and I guess the same with staff, you went into it a little bit there, but like, how do they even hear about this? - Yes, so one of the key features of our suite of initiatives and programmes is that none of them are mandatory. None are required for staff to engage with or students to engage with.

And I personally really appreciate that because it restricts, it prevents disingenuine engagement with the programmes. And because they're all opt in or voluntary, there is an expression of interest form for most of our projects or programmes. But it really depends on what initiative we're talking about and where in that scaffold partnership experience a staff wants to sort of get engaged with. If it is on the lighter touch, dip your toe in type of a thing.

We do have a co-created and student led podcast where students are in dialogue sharing some of their experiences framed through what they wish their lecturers or educators knew. - Ah. - So you can tune in to that on any... (group laughing) - Should we, yeah, let's get a little super there with the name of it. What's it called?

- "Voices From The Classroom. What I Wish My Lecturer Knew." - Oh, nice. - Yeah. - So it's students talking about this. Yeah, right. - That's right. Students are hosting the podcast talking with other students who are sharing their lived experience and that requires nothing but tuning in to anywhere that podcasts are live. And you can listen to stories and really humanise your students in your own classroom or lean into that curiosity without having to engage in dialogue with students.

So there's no barriers at all to engaging with that programme. We then have other programmes like for example, our students' mentoring staff programme where an open call expression of interest is put out to any staff member in the university. Professional staff, academic staff, casual staff. And you can express interest in participating. We don't gatekeep really, the programme is there for you to be involved in.

For that one students, we have a targeted cohort of students for the students mentoring staff programme. - Mm-hm. - And so we will open that programme up for students who are registered in the Disability Resource Centre or through the Disability Resource Centre. But other programmes we then put on Target Connect, which is Alex you were reflecting on how that's how you first came to students staff partnership and that those are those programmes. So it really depends on what the initiative is.

There's really low barrier and then a little bit more of a assessment process through which the staff might submit a project idea

and then it goes through an assessment panel and rubric to receive funding. So again, the deeper the partnership, the I guess more thorough the process is to ensure that it is a genuine partnership project. - Yeah. - And that staff and students are gonna have a good experience. - Yeah. Cool. And what are the limits of what a student can mentor a staff member on?

Like is it everything from building empathy with people with different abilities or different lived experiences or the way to like how to use TikTok? Like what are the lines we're drawing in between here? - It could be, it really is open in that student mentoring staff programme in particular. Some students come into the programme with something in particular they want to educate. - So they can come in with, yeah, right. - They can. - With something that they're proposing that...yeah.

- Or they just come in with an interest to share their experience and maybe respond. So we had some students come into the student mentoring staff programme who love the idea that there's interest from a staff perspective to understand their lived experience. And that's enough. So they come into the programme and just engage and the conversation goes wherever it goes.

The academic or the teaching staff or the professional staff, whomever it is, might say, "Hey, I've been really curious about what it's like to," or "What was your experience of this aspect of the university?" And the conversation goes from there. We do support our students and our staff engaging in any of our programmes. So for our students mentoring staff, we provide examples of safe conversations, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate.

For example, not appropriate to ask for disclosure, why are you registered with the disability resource centre? What's your disability or like it's not appropriate. So we really support our students and staff to make sure it's safe. We provide activities that students and staff might use. Like a would you rather teaching and learning edition or would you rather assessment edition? And it creates a fun entry point to dialogue and then the conversations go where they need to go.

And of course that's not required. Dialogue can just happen naturally if both students and staff are willing. - Mm-hm.

Why is it important that this programme has an equity first lens? Maybe you first, Alex. - That's a big one. I suppose we're trying to provide a platform for student voices who are often not allowed into the room or not offered a seat at the table. - I think students can tell when we engage with them in a way that is not authentic and creating this sort of safe third space for students within Deakin has been, I mean from my personal experience, humanising, confidence building, capacity building.

But I think we are really trying to prioritise, as I said, student voices that are often left out of the conversation. Because those are often the students who need direct support and are missing out on that relational aspect of what it is to be at university. So yeah, privileging that space for those students. - Hmm. Yeah, that's so important.

How do you ensure that students from equity cohorts are supported and empowered rather than tokenized? 'Cause I suppose that's the risk sometimes depending on, I don't know, it's an opt-in kind of experience. But yeah, you don't want it to seem transactional. Right? - I think depending on the project, part of the work we do at the beginning is ensuring that staff have intentions to engage authentically in partnership with students.

So ensuring we're not at risk of them becoming research assistants or just sort of sounding boards or tick boxes to say that staff have engaged in partnership. So Cassandra, maybe you wouldn't mind speaking to sort of how we, yeah prioritise staff who are trying to engage authentically in partnership, I suppose. - Yeah, and I might even take a step back. I think when we think about universities, they were originally designed for a small group of privileged white upper class men.

And we still see echoes of that in our systems and the ways that universities are run today. And through our partnership practises and our equity first lens, it allows us to really step into believing that it's our responsibility as a university to change. So it's not about preparing students for university that doesn't work for them. - Mm. - It's about co-creating a university that is for the people. And I think about conversations that are happening now about social licencing to educate.

And that requires that we have trust in the people of the community. And the only way for us to do that is to care about our students and to show that we are responsive, we are listening, we are committed to co-creating a university that is for the community. And the community is more and more diverse. Thankfully in a university this is something that we need to celebrate and remove barriers and really step into the responsibility of creating a space that is built for and with.

And that's where partnership comes in with the students that we want to serve in the university. And so, yes, to what you were saying, Alex, it's really important we can, and equity first perspective allows us to look around the room and say, who's not here? How are we reinforcing inequitable practises and why? - Yeah. - What are the system barriers that are not meaning this table is it diverse perspective and we're making decisions together rather than for?

And so one of the things that we do in our programme is a low barrier entry into student staff partnership. So what that means for a student when they apply through Deakin talent, sorry, when they apply through Deakin talent, they don't need to upload a CV, they don't have to have previous work experience. It's you being a student qualifies you for this role. - Yeah. - It's your lived experience that we value and welcome you into the programme for to share.

So one, we have a low barrier entry into the student staff partnership programme and we pay our students. - Mm-hm. - So we recognise that volunteering requires economic capital. It's a privilege to volunteer, it means you have time, you have money, you have the connections to be in the right place, you have transportation. You know, there's so many privileges layered in an assumption that students can volunteer.

And so we pay or numerate all of our student partners and that helps to ensure that equity cohort students are supported in student staff partnership and are genuinely removing as many barriers as we can to be decision makers at the table. We also hire from an equity first perspective, which is really important to us.

And in order for any projects that seek funding, any partnership projects that seek funding from our programme needs to evidence that the outcomes of the programme are going to support the teaching and learning and student outcomes of equity cohort students. So it needs to show that it's improving accessibility, it's considering different ways of working. It's asking the question, who is this privileging who is it not, in an attempt to really amplify otherwise silenced or marginalised voices.

- Yeah, that's fantastic. And it really, instead of putting the onus on the students you are actively looking for, who's not here, who's missing, what voice aren't we hearing right now? Alex, if you are comfortable, could you tell us a little bit about how your lived experience has sort of shaped your role and your participation in this initiative? - You like the big questions? (group laughing) I am very proudly a member of both the queer and the disabled community.

And I do think my personal identity in that space inherently lends itself to advocacy. So there's a reason that the students we partner with are not only passionate about improving the experience for other students, but they have lived experience in needing to adapt and change their way of thinking and change the language they use. And I actually think a lot of the staff we partner with can learn from students in that way.

I also think that lived experience can create a safe space for other students. So other students who identify in those communities can sort of see themselves reflected in students who have been able to make significant change at the university. And it's sort of an opportunity for students to impact decisions that directly affect them. - Hmm. - Yeah. - Has your involvement in this initiative shaped your career aspirations in any way? Has it opened any doors for you?

- Absolutely. I mean, I'm currently very fortunate to be working in the Students As Partners team with Cassandra and the wonderful Sam Geddes, shout out to Sam. So I'm working as an officer in the Students As Partners teams, sort of as that first point of contact for students. So it's been a very gratifying graduation from my work as a student partner. And I would also say I learn from every student we work with on a daily basis. - Yeah. Nice.

Cassandra, what are some tangible changes that you've seen across the university as a result of this work? - Like how long do you have? Because we genuinely could sit here for way longer than reasonable to list through some of the changes or impacts that partnership have had on the university. I can start by thinking personally and something you said earlier, Alex reminded me of how of like even the most micro thing makes a big difference.

We have a programme called Coffee Conversations and this is one of the only students staff partnership programmes in the whole country that brings partnership into the teaching and learning space. So it's something that we're really proud of because what we found historically is that students are asked to give feedback on the unit, on their experience of a unit at the end of a trimester. - Yeah. - Which is amazing.

It's important to amplify that student experience, but what it doesn't do is impact that student because they're providing feedback after their experience is done. - Right. That's probably the last thing that we wanted do when they've like wrapped up a whole unit. - Right, well, some students are passionate and want to improve the experience of the students who come after them.

But it was a problem that we wanted to solve because students have lived experience, they have opinions, they have feedback, and we need to listen and inform our practise as we go through the trimester. So we created this coffee conversations programme Where teaching staff and students, a small group of students and it changes each week depending on who signs up or who's available to come along. We share coffee or any hot beverage or any cold beverage for that matter.

- Free coffee, okay yeah. - Free coffee from the on campus cafe. You walk over after class, sit down, have a bit of a yarn over a cup of coffee, students share who they are, as a teaching staff you share who you are, you could talk about anything. And the conversation, usually with the relational first lens ends up talking about some feedback and student experience. And then what we can do is listen to that feedback, make changes to our practise for the next week of classes.

And then you stand up there in front of this class each week and say, "Hey, I heard what you said last week. You wanted more of this so today I've put more of that in my class." And the students can then see that we're tightening that feedback loop.

So when we're talking about partnership requiring trust building every single week when we're evidencing that you are giving me feedback, I'm listening, and we're making these decisions together to improve your experience of teaching and learning and your teaching and learning outcomes. Students are more and more engaged and trusting in you and in the process.

- Yeah. - But what I learned from participating in that practise, even the small thing, like realising that I keep so much a secret of my practise in the university. - Mm. - So students will be coming and saying, "Hey, this deadline for this assignment is not working for me." Like, okay, to be honest, it's not working for me either, but here's the policy.

So let's sit down together and say, okay, using your experience, using what's in the Deakin assessment policy, how can we solve this problem together? And I realised that I was making decisions that weren't working for students because of particular systems and requirements, but not telling students. So that dialogue was missing. - Yeah. - So even little things like that, I'm more forthcoming to share what is usually hidden or secret knowledge behind closed doors with my students.

And that builds trust and it builds relationships. But that's just a very small example, but it's something that does matter. Other things that we've done, we see assignments being co-created. - Oh. - Yeah. Right? - Cool. - Very excited about this one. - What's an example, where have they tried that? - Oh, multiple places across the university.

- Okay. - So we've had a couple of faculties do partnership projects with their students, where students in that unit are sitting down with the unit chair and co-creating the assessment- - Wow. in the unit. Sometimes we have examples of students who have finished the unit and who are currently in the unit and who are coming into the unit.

So if it's a core unit, we might have the next year's cohort students join that partnership and they sit down together and say, "Hey, let's co-create this assessment task so that not only is the task itself genuinely seen as meaningful, relevant, and worthwhile to the student, but there's also this relationality that's built into it. Other students then trust that, hey, this was designed by my peers with my best interest. And so they lean in harder to the assessment. It's so cool.

Like, why do you know? It's so cool. Why don't we do it more often? - Yeah. - And it could just be a rubric. You could co-create a rubric. - Wow. - And I get excited about teaching and learning because it's my heart. But we have so many examples across the university, having things accessible in like feminine products in toilets for free. - Of course. Yeah. - Right? Something that was student initiated and led and done in partnership.

We have examples of co-creating media, products that support students to see possibilities in career trajectories and pathways from a degree, connecting with industry partners. We see, what are of yours favourite things that you've seen across the university? - Oh gosh. I'm thinking even just of this year, assessment templates and rubrics is a big one. - Hm, massive. - Obviously very excited to see the podcast coming into fruition. - Was that student like ideated as well?

Or was that an initiative born out of this initiative? - Yeah. - Like and then sort of handed down... - That one was staff initiated, that was born of recognising the problem of partnership requires safety and not all staff are safe to share stories with from a student perspective. - Yeah. - But we still want those staff to have access to lean into that curiosity and to start to understand the student experience.

So we said, hey, we need something that's really low barrier for staff to engage with. - Yeah. - But we are absolutely not creating that from our, like it needs to be student led. - Yeah. - And co-create with students. So then we hired student partners to create what will this look like?

And the creation of deciding it was gonna be this podcast, this was gonna be the aims, this is how we're gonna run, this is how we're gonna communicate with students, this is how we're gonna edit was all a partnership with students.

- Yeah. - We've also had the fantastic student initiated project this year, which has been developing a module through the students helping students division two support neurodivergent students in the classroom. So that's a fantastic resource. And that was a student who approached us and said, "This work needs to be done and I think this is the right space." - Mm-hm.

So another tangible change that I've seen is that one, more and more staff are seeking partnership opportunities, which is really cool because it's normalising student staff partnership practises. - Mm. - And if word of mouth is spreading, something's happening, good tangible outcomes are happening, students are talking about their experience, staff are hearing it, they get curious, they wanna be involved.

- Yeah. - They wanna have that same engagement with their students or those same quality of relationships with their students. And then we're seeing it become business as usual. - Mm. - So as an example, drawing on coffee conversations that I was talking about, we fund those coffee conversations when you're a part of the programme. We often have staff come up to us now and say, "Hey, it's just what I do with every class now." You know? - Yeah. Nice.

- It's not, they don't even get funding from the programme. It has just become their business as usual. - Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. And it's probably less and less of a lift as you go forward to even try and get people on board and more aware of it. And more people will be looking for opportunities to do this. - And they trust. Right? - Right. - They trust.

So we have to establish that trust and it takes time and it takes repeated genuine responses to students sharing their experience, their voice, their ideas, their feedback, their perspectives, making decisions together and leading to tangible outcomes. And then we know it's not a waste of time or it's not just tokenistic or it's not just lip service. The Deakin staff and the Deakin University broadly really does care about what the student has to say. - Yeah. That's so cool.

Looking ahead beyond structural change,

what does it mean for students to feel heard, to feel valued, and to kind of feel part of the Deakin community? Nice massive question there for someone to answer. - I saw you look at me and go, "No, don't look at me." (group laughing) I think I started my university journey only a decade ago, and even back then before COVID, it felt like there was a sense of community on campus, and there was a stronger sense of relationality between students and staff.

I can remember going from a 4:00 PM seminar, or shoot as they call them in Queensland, and going to the uni bar afterwards with my lecturer and talking about the assignment. Oh, we played pool. (group laughing) So I do think sometimes that sense of community is dwindling and there's upsides of that now that online education is so accessible. But I think we could be doing more to support our online students in getting involved in that sense.

So as a bit of a roundabout answer to your question, I suppose I would say to any staff who are sitting there going, "Why don't we see students on campus anymore? Why don't students want to engage?" Think about how you could be the reason they're excited to come to class. Think about how you can be the community that they crave on campus. - Yeah. And think about how you can make them feel like you see them, right? - Yes, absolutely.

And you see them beyond the two dimensional role of who they are in your classroom. - Mm. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Like it actually brings tears to my eye when I think about this question and what it means. Like, what does it mean for students to feel heard, valued, part of a, like it's everything. - Yeah. - It's everything. We are humans, students are... It's a fundamental need. We need to feel seen and heard and valued and part of a community.

So words that come to mind are belonging, dignity, confidence, yes community. Like, gosh it's powerful. And if we just put ourselves in that position, what does it mean for me to be heard and for me to feel valued, it's so motivating and inspiring. And it makes any partnership practise welcoming because I want my students to feel this way.

I want my students to want to come, I want to be one of many reasons students want to be involved or want to be a Deakin, want to come to class, they wanna talk to each other. They wanna know that they come to a place where they're seen as a whole person, not just a number, not just a student, not just a name. - Not just a grade. - Not just a grade. Ugh, all those things. Yeah, I want my students to know that I see them,

that I know that they're balancing a million things, that they've had to make a really hard decision to come to class because it meant that they didn't do something else in a long list of things that need to happen. I mean, we're adults. We're all living in this high cost of living world, and no one's feeling it more than our students. So, gosh, humanising. Yeah, it's really humanising. - Great answers. All right we've got some hopefully less heavy questions now as we go to start wrapping up.

Alex, I'm looking at you again. - So funny. - What's one skill that you've gained from this initiative that you didn't expect? - I would probably say, I don't know that there's any skills I wasn't expecting to develop, partly because going for these opportunities was very intentional in carving a path to sort of what my career might look like post university. So I would say, if anything, it's strengthened a lot of existing skills, collaboration, teamwork, adapting my language.

But you asked earlier if my experience as a student partner has increased my graduate employability. Absolutely yes. And further to Cassandra's point, yes I've developed soft and technical skills as a student partner, but the personal and professional confidence is what made me feel like I could take the next steps. So I'm now sitting on external committees, working groups, we've travelled for conferences, I'll be co-authored by the end of my degree.

And yes, Students As Partners is a space that offered that opportunity but more than anything, it was a space of we believe you can do this, so give it a go. It was sort of a safe space for students to make mistakes and flex their muscles, I suppose. So I would absolutely not be in my current role, and I certainly wouldn't be sitting here if it hadn't been for Cassandra and Sam and the staff involved in the projects to go, well give it a go and will be here at the end either way.

So I'm trying not to get emotional now, but yeah. - Please do it, let's get a close up on. (group laughing) - Slow (indistinct). - That's so cool though. Like, that's amazing. And I think that's what through this podcast as well, we're learning, is that if you have the opportunity to sort of like do it before you have to go out into the world and do it, you know you can do it by the time you kind of like leave the campus. - And they might be industry specific skills.

I've been involved in thematic analysis and report writing. So yes, it's great to do tasks that I envision in my career and go, okay, great to know that not only do I actually enjoy this, but I think I might be okay at it. But it's also just being seen as a peer,

having pretty senior staff in the university turn to you and go, "Well, what do you think? I've spoken to Cassandra at length before about how I think there's a bit preconceived notion that university will shape you into something useful, and you are here as a blank slate to be turned into a productive member of society, but students and staff a like are coming to campus every day with a whole wealth of experience behind them already. So use it. - Yeah. - Mm-hm.

- Gosh, if we could prepare every student for the first, well, what do you think in a career where you're like, "Ah, am I ready for this?" - I remember the first time I was asked that, and I don't think I'll forget it. It already feels like a turning point, you know? - Yeah. - Yes. - Amazing. Cassandra, what's a moment that made you feel proud to be part of this programme? You've spoken of many really today, but like- - It's a great question. - Give us one. - I know there's so...

I mean, right now. (group laughing) Like what's more? Oh, I'm so... I mean, you can probably tell that I'm really passionate about this work. - I'm not really getting that. - Not getting it? No, I think I need to be a little bit more dramatic. (group laughing) I've really care deeply about the work that this type of practise.

Students staff partnership is not the only way to build trust and relationships and community and belonging and to empower students and staff to make decisions, to value our experience, our knowledge, our perspectives, and to come together to collaborate on shaping what a university looks like. But it's a pretty darn powerful way to do that. Like it is a tool that we have. And we've, as I mentioned before, I'm really proud.

We actually just won an award, so shameless plug, we won an international award for leadership in student voice. - Wow. Cool. - Yeah. (group clapping) - The whole crew is clapping. (group laughing) - But it's an award that is for the whole university. Because it's all of our students, all of our staff, everyone who's been involved in engaging with this practise and developing the programme to what it is. But it is something that I'm proud of.

We have different ways to engage in what it means to not, the language that's used in the field is often to democratise higher education. And yes, that's true. I think of it as returning and learning from our Indigenous colleagues and really recentering the values of country, of land, of respect, relationship, dialogue, coming together as community. So any single moment that I see a student partner step into their worth, like step into what I already know and believe them to be capable of doing.

Or you see a staff partner or I walk through the cafe, how cool is this Alex? When you're like walking through the cafe and you see a coffee conversation happening. - Yes. - Yeah. - And you're like, "Yes." Like that is so cool. We are living and breathing it as a university. Of course we have room to improve. We are constantly learning and we haven't got it dead right yet, but we're absolutely moving in the right direction. - Yeah. Amazing. Final question to you, Alex.

What is one thing that you wish more staff understood about students? - Ooh, stay tuned for the podcast. (group laughing) - All right. That's it. - I think that we want to know where you're coming from. We want to know the motivation behind how you structured the unit. We want to know what obstacles you are coming up against. I think we need to bring the human aspect back to higher education a little bit. And that goes both ways.

So I think don't keep students in the dark just because you've been taught that that's what that hierarchical relationship should look like. You know, pull the curtain back a little bit for students, help them understand some of your decision making, and don't be afraid to bring that vulnerability into the classroom with you, because it makes you a better educator. (group laughing) - Yeah. Right.

And that's important because there's also dialogue internally, but within the field more broadly that leaning into some vulnerability and humanising yourself in the process of engaging with students will mean that you lose respect and control and authority. - Yeah. - And the opposite is so true, right?

- Yeah. - Like as we become human and we establish relationships, then there's genuine trust and genuine respect that's reciprocal. You know, it's not something to fear, but I think that that is scary for some people. But to know and to hear you say how important it is from a student perspective that staff are showing up as human and bringing that to their practise, I think is a powerful message.

- Well it's a great initiative and it's nice to hear that you can walk around the campus and even see some of the tangible results. And so all the best of luck for continuing into the future. Thank you so much, Cassandra and Alex for coming on "Stories of Wonder." - Thank you so much for having us. - Thanks for having us.