Moving Beyond Climate Cancel Culture: Jenny Morgan on Accountability and Collaboration

Hello and welcome to another episode of Stories for the Future. I hope that you are doing okay during these turbulent times. A lot is happening in the world and I suppose we can at least say it's not dull and predictable. You never know what kind of news you'll wake up to, and I guess we can say that it keeps us on our toes at least. I think that the latest political events is making the topic of this season relevant in a new way.

I talk about building bridges and seeing things from different perspectives and in a way that is what we need to do in other areas than what I am mostly talking about, which is in the energy transition. One thing I have seen for myself lately is that it's a lot easier to talk than to walk. So it's easier said than done. But we have to continue to try and I think this episode can offer a really valuable angle to how we can increase understanding and collaborate in better ways.

Welcome to Stories for the Future. This is a podcast that that aims to make you feel excited and hopeful about amazing possibilities ahead of us. My name is Veslimayklavnesparkje and I'm on a mission to discover how we can all live good lives, have interesting jobs, take care of our planet, and look after everyone who lives here. I believe that everyday people have the power to shape the future. Together we can create a world that we're all excited about.

Join me on this journey as we explore these ideas. And remember, the future is in our hands and I'm confident we can make it really good. Today's

guest might be the freshest author I've ever had on the podcast. She published her book just the day before our recording. Her name is Jenny Morgan and she's a sustainability expert with a brand, brand new and really timely book called Cancel Culture in Climate. I think the title says a lot, but to give you one more hint, it focuses on the impact of Cancel Culture within the climate change movement and how cancelling is not productive and actually harmful to progress.

The minute I heard about this topic, I felt that this is highly relevant to my own work. And honestly, I feel it's relevant for most of us. So let's dive in and explore how we can find better ways to collaborate and move forward. Here's my conversation with Jenny Morgan. Welcome so much to the podcast, Jenny. I have so much been looking forward to this conversation. Thank you. I have as well. I'm very excited to be here. Yes, great.

And we were introduced a few months ago, so thank you to our mutual friend Amnes for introducing us and for seeing that alignment because we have so much like common interests, I would say, in this space. So you work as a market development manager in a company called Tradewater and you also have your own company, Pact 3, right? Yes. Correct. Yes. And on top of that, you just launched a book. So congratulations on the launch. That is a really big thing. Thank you so much.

It's been a rollercoaster of excitement and I'm just happy that it's now here. It feels like a third child to me. Yeah, I can imagine. And your book, I think it's safe to say that your book will have the center seat for this podcast episode and I think that everyone will soon understand why.

But first of all, could you just share a little bit about yourself and what you do in your day to day work so that we can just kind of of place you in the landscape? Sure. So I come from tech and hospitality. That's where my career started. I was beginning to get very inundated in the B Corp movement and looking for ways to provide tools and frameworks for organizations to insert purpose into their profitability strategy.

And as I was growing that, I was beginning to learn a lot about equity and becoming more accessible and really thinking about stakeholders holistically. And a lot of that had sustainability bundled up inside of it as well. So I started to research more and more about ways that I could integrate impact both socially and environmentally. I started my own business as I was working at Microsoft. I was leading a team at Microsoft that was focused specifically on inclusion.

And then I started my consulting company to help organizations become B Corp certified. And as I started growing that business, I became aware of really impactful climate solutions. And so I transitioned out of Microsoft and now work for an organization full time that does really amazing work in preventing non CO2 gases from entering the atmosphere. So I've been working in that space for over two years now in addition to having my consulting agency.

And as I was growing my presence in the climate world and working with such just a diverse portfolio of organizations and people, I started to see this disconnect in the way that we communicate with one another.

There's a lot of shame and blame and fear in the way that we operate specifically in very high pressured spaces and climate being one of the most high pressure because we've, we living it, we're living in a time of urgency and so I see that as a huge distraction away from us being able to progress. So I started speaking about that more and more and then I started talking about it almost at nauseam.

My husband started to roll his eyes more and more, and I started to see that it was time to put this to paper. And so I wrote a book. I've been working on that for about a year now, and now it's available. And so I'm really proud to be tackling climate change in a lot of different facets, both in solutions as well as behavioral ways that we can work together to be more collaborative, to move forward and increase the momentum of the movement.

Yes. And I just listened to another podcast you were on, and your work in general is a whole episode in itself. So I will link to that episode in the show Notes. It's called Straight Talking Sustainability. It was really interesting. And there you share a lot about your work also with that, with tradewater, as you mentioned, and it's really interesting. But now back to the book and you didn't say its name.

It's called Cancel Culture in Climate and you touched upon what's it about and what made you dive into it. And I have, since it's so fresh off the press, so to speak, I haven't had the time to read the whole thing, but I have read the beginning and I skim through it and I think the beginning was really interesting.

Could you share that story, which you call your first meeting with Cancel Culture in Climate from your time in Microsoft? I think it was. Yeah, I was working at Microsoft and I was looking at ways to become more and more influential in the sustainability space, specifically within the organization. And so I offered to help write a blog about our presence at cop. And this was somewhat of a controversial cop. COP now seems to be fairly controversial every year.

Again, that sense of urgency is creating a lot of pressure. But this COP was quite interesting, not only because of the pressure of curbing climate change effectively, but also we are coming out of the pandemic. And so there were still a lot of individuals that were still in their homes, unable to see their families. And so it was a difficult time to launch a global event.

And so there was a lot of eyes on the event and public scrutiny, but there was a lot of positivity and impact occurring at the event as well. It's both. And so we wrote a blog post and it was all about all of the ways that Microsoft was having such a positive presence at the event specifically, and the goals that we were hoping to leave the event to achieve. And so I was really proud of that work.

I was really proud of what Microsoft had done during that time and the commitment and because of all of the negative press that came out of the event, we removed the blog. And I was very frustrated by that because to me that was the expectation was that we were going to either reach perfection or nothing. There's no middle. If you haven't solved climate change by tomorrow, then don't even talk about it. And I found that to be a really frustrating mistake, that it's not realistic.

We're trying to progress and with a sense of urgency. Yes, that is true, but we also have to be, we have to acknowledge that we're all learning in real time and we need to be putting forth our best efforts, but also knowing the fact that we operate in reality.

Limited resources, limited funds, limited amount of knowledge, making a mistake, making a mistake in communication, not actually in the communic, in the solution itself or the application was done very well, but it was communicated incorrectly. And so all of these nuances are, are being ignored. And so that was my first time I really experienced that form of fear based leadership.

Green hushing is basically what it, what it's deemed when you operate in silence because of fear of, of how people perceive your action. And so, yeah, that was my first time ever experiencing it.

So without giving away all the secrets, could you share some, like the key ideas or arguments you make in your book about how cancel culture affects our ability to have meaningful conversations about climate change? Yeah, I think that our inability to communicate is the one thing standing between us and climate security. And we know the solutions that we need to put in place to be able to curb climate change. Now, it will not be instant.

Those listening to this podcast will be experiencing the results of the last 150 years. And we will have to figure out how to maintain a sense of the livelihood that we want to keep during this time. But 100 years from now, or even shorter than that, I mean, maybe by 2050 we could really start to see the impacts of the accumulation of progress. Greenhouse gases accumulate, but so do solutions. And so that's something that we should really lean in on.

And that's something that provides a lot of optimism for me. And so my key argument in the book overall is that we do have the power to work together. We are not enemies. Our common enemy is climate change. Us inside of it are not enemies with one another. Now, our priorities might be listed in a different set of, you know, what's number one and then what's number 100.

But that doesn't mean that we can't find ways to communicate with one another where our priorities or values, while they might be different, they can still coexist and actually complement one another. And so if an organization is primarily focused on profitability or employee retention or innovation, that can be translated in climate action.

And so we just have to be patient and really intentional in the way that we speak with one another so that we are finding that common vernacular and verbiage that's going to align with where everyone is kind of seeing the world. And that can go in someone's personal life as well as their professional life. Yeah,

you know, as you know, my focus on this podcast is, and especially this season is on the oil and gas sector and how we can build those bridges between the inside and the outside. And coming from my background, having kind of one leg in each camp, so to speak, and sometimes it feels like anyone even associated with the oil and gas sector gets labeled as the bad guy.

How do you see this kind of canceling, impacting maybe the people working in oil and gas and then how we can move forward and having those conversations? Because I see that as a big problem in the work that I do. Yeah, I mean, I mentioned the B Corp movement and I will have to say that I love the B Corp movement. They have proven that you can be both profitable and purposeful at the same time.

The B Corp community survived the pandemic more so than any other community and group of businesses, any other sector. The B Corp movement thrived in that time period. And that's something to say, that's if there are industries that are looking for that sense of, of long term growth and long term security. Look at the B Corp movement, because they're actually proving it to be possible.

And the reason being is because they've integrated purpose, purposefulness and impact so beautifully in everything that they do. Now I will also say that the B Corp movement, and B Lab in general has removed certifications from organizations that have worked with oil and gas at all. If you work on advertising with oil and gas, your certification will be removed.

And while that might be seen as a strong stance against an industry that has a lot to account for when it comes to climate change, I'm confused on why we think that that is going to be an effective tool.

That in my belief and with what I'm experiencing and seeing, that will either cause people to operate in silence and lie about what their customer base looks like, that will make them have to choose, do I want to work with a very profitable organization or do I want to potentially have to lay off employees because I can't meet my, you know, the necessary profit margins that I must achieve. And so we're, it's, it's the wrong tactic. It doesn't work. And especially because it's an either or.

There's not, there's not numbers or parameters or boundaries that we can work with to really understand what the framework is that we can operate. And maybe you can work with an oil and gas company that has X amount of investments in renewables or something of that sort that really shows progress, rather than this cancellation type of culture that, that I'm stressing. We, we must stop.

In the book, I talk about a somewhat problematic and disengaged leader in an industry that is usually deemed to be one that is the one that everyone dislikes. When the individual reached out to me to talk about climate actions, they refer to themselves as the kid everyone has to be friends with, but nobody likes. And I think oil and gas has that kind of feeling where they feel very frustrated because we have our lights on. We are doing this podcast together.

I have a lot to thank for the oil and gas industry because they've given us so much. But now we've learned that there are drastic consequences to those gifts. And so we've got to figure out what's next. And they can't just stop because then the world stops. So we've got to help each other figure out what that next step is, and that's through motivational conversations.

You've got to build rapport, figure out what we can do to really understand one another and listen to one another, explore each other's perspectives. So with this individual that I worked with, their perspective was that they were somewhat pressured to be a part of climate action and they weren't actually invited to the conversation. They were being, it was being forced upon them. How is that going to inspire creativity and innovation?

No one wants to be in that space, especially in a business setting. And so I really worked with them to inspire, try to understand where their priorities are, try to integrate that into climate action, become much more relatable with one another, creating a strong foundation and connection. And then that allowed us to find common ground, to then work together hand in hand on how they can actually progress towards a more positive business model.

And that was a really successful and inspiring experience for me. It proved what I was preaching out into the world and actually proved it to be possible. And so that's, that's something I really want to stress not only with the oil and gas industry, to be open to partnering and collaborating with those that are very, that are really stressing regulations or progress in some form, trying to understand one another and come to the table and have a conversation.

Yes. And I'm thinking also a lot about the individuals like the people working inside the industry. And I'm, I'm trying to, like I do that that often. I put myself back in my 2016 version of myself or 15, and how I was thinking, and then I'm, I'm kind of thinking now, well, I don't think I today would have liked to have that job, but I would if I was there. I would love to still be able to go to, let's say it was my boys school and talk about what I was working with.

And also I guess this goes both ways. So that the industry has to be open and honest about what they're not doing. Right. And what they're struggling with, but also what they're trying to do, which is good because there are positives also. And it's the same example with oil companies, like Norwegian oil companies being like shut out of the universities.

They used to always go there and talk about or recruit, but for a certain time there were no, you're not allowed here because you do what you do. And that has changed again, I think. But these kinds of boycotting, canceling, it's not really helpful, is it?

Yeah, I don't know what that individual, let's say that they're a sustainability leader at a large oil and gas company that is expecting to speak at in a class about business management or something, and then they're then told they're no longer asked to participate. What is that individual supposed to do? I guess they could quit, but then someone else is just going to take that job. So what we actually need to do is be inclusive and talk with one another.

If that individual came to the university to speak and students then asked probing questions about what's standing between you and actually transitioning to 80% renewable energy. Where is the block? We hear about costs going down when you instill renewables and that they can, you know, battery storage is improving so much and there's a lot of momentum in that space.

What's standing between you and doing that and really understanding the challenges that are coming up so that we can actually partner together and innovate. Those conversations aren't happening. It's basically, you're. You work for who? Well, please leave. You're not, you're not invited here. And so they'll just continue operating the way that they're expected to operate. Yeah. And then you get the defensiveness as well, I guess. So you're kind of just defending yourself and your livelihood and.

Yeah, yeah, that's a person that has kids that have soccer practice that need new cleats and, you know, they, they're trying to save up for a vacation next summer. And they're just a person, a human, just like us. And so if we treat each other like. So we can actually try to find ways to move forward. Yeah, exactly. So you touched on greenwashing and also greenhousing. That's. Maybe you can kind of define those, but that's a huge issue.

So with this fear of getting canceled for saying the wrong thing, then people, companies get afraid to even start making those changes and talk about it. So how do we find, or have you found a solution to this? How to find that balance between calling out the bad actors and encourage those who are trying to do better? Especially then again, the oil and gas industry, for instance, if you could take that. That as an example. Yeah.

So in the book, I define three symptoms that are coming from this cancel culture type of environment. The first is greenwashing. So the symptom is that people are trying to communicate their efforts in a way that will make them look good. And that can either be true, that they're just trying to communicate their efforts in a positive way and that's being perceived as greenwashing, or they are lying about their efforts, or their efforts are completely ignoring a harmful act that they're doing.

So there can be good and bad intentions behind greenwashing, but if anyone's accused of greenwashing, it doesn't. We don't take the time to do our due diligence to understand where. What the intentions are and what the facts are. It's. It's a bad thing to happen in the media if your business is accused of greenwashing. And so that's a symptom. Another symptom is green hushing. So we've got folks and leaders watching from the sidelines seeing their competitors being accused of greenwashing.

They're going through a PR nightmare because of it. And so instead of being transparent about either their successes or, or their obstacles, they're just going silent. So there's organizations that are potentially hiding some of their metrics from their sustainability calculations, or some organizations that are doing fantastic work and not telling anyone about it. You have to really dig into a registry or find it somehow, but it's not something that they're putting a public statement out about.

I find that to be one of the most dangerous symptoms because we don't know what we don't know. So there's organizations out there that are doing fantastic work but operating in silence. We don't get to live in that state of optimism and that potential there. And so that to me is incredibly dangerous. The third is green recanting which organizations are seeing. If I do anything, I'm going to be scrutinized, potentially brought to court. Why even do this? There's no return on this investment.

I'm just going to remove my commitment entirely. I don't see the benefit here. And so they're completely recanting their commitments of achieving net zero or carbon neutrality or whatever they've said that they would plan to do. And so those are the symptoms that are coming out of this culture. And all of those symptoms are incredibly dangerous for us to be able to progress to a climate stable world.

So what I would like to stress to those that are trying to distinguish a way of communicating to these players that are being accused of these symptoms or feeling these symptoms is ensure that you are not participating in cancel culture, you're participating in accountability. And there is a clear distinction between the two. Accountability wants positive outcomes. It is not looking to destroy, it's looking to uplift.

So if you're holding an organization accountable and looking for a positive outcome to come about that you're going to talk about something that you expect, being really clear, putting your standards out, communicating what is not meeting those standards and what needs to happen to then emerge to be, you know, meeting that positive standard that you're looking for.

So being really transparent, being fair, trying to understand and see why there are obstacles occurring and how to overachieve the overcome those obstacles, being very consistent in the way that you communicate. You can't pick favorites. You've got to really figure out who, what factor you're looking to grow and then who's achieving it already and then who needs help and so really keeping that consistency and then, you know, having those constructive outcomes.

So your goal of accountability is to learn from mistakes, share them publicly and then grow with one another. I have an example in the book about how Crocs talked about how they were going to unfortunately have to delay their net zero commitment by a decade.

They received a lot of heat for that and allbirds responded publicly, shared all of their assets and tools on how they created a carbon neutral shoe and was very empathetic in the obstacles and the struggles that Crocs was obviously experiencing, but then didn't view them as a competitor, they actually viewed them as a partner. Because if all shoe companies are able to achieve this positive momentum, then everyone gets to enjoy that increase and that momentum and that growth.

And so that is a constructive outcome. That's accountability, not cancel culture. That's a very, very good point, I think. So what would you say about, I don't know if you have that in the US but you have these, what to call them greenwashing prices. Like you, you have these lists of the worst green washers and there's kind of a price, but it's a very bad price to get. What does that do with a. Like, is that positive?

There are lists of top greenwashers and you know, some of them are, in my opinion, not accurate. They didn't do the work to win the prize, I guess you could say. One of which is Windex was accused. Windex hits the list multiple times. And one of the reasons why they've been accused as a, of a, you know, being a top greenwasher is because they put on their bottle 100% ocean plastic.

So they're saying it gave the consumer the perception that Windex was going out to sea collecting floating plastic and then making their bottles from it. In actuality, what Windex was doing was taking plastic from landfill that was most likely going to go to the ocean. So it was ocean bound plastic, not ocean plastic. Right. To me, that is not a good enough reason to shun an entire organization and call them a liar. Did they make a marketing and communications mistake?

Sure, they should do a reprint, but should they be deemed a villain in this story? I don't think so. What we've done though, by accusing them of greenwashing because of one word missing from their label. If I was a competitor in the cleaning sector, I would be terrified to put anything forward about some of the things that we're doing. So therefore, I would either green hush or green recant because the public has told me those are my only options.

And so being accused of greenwashing is it can devastate an organization, but it also devastates the movement. It might provide a, a, a quick dopamine hit for those that have, you know, uncovered the lie. But then we all lose and there, there isn't, we don't win from that. And I think that's where accountability becomes so much more important, is that you can actually operate between a defined framework versus this kind of random anger and kind of shame and blame distribution.

You know, there's no formula to cancel culture. It just is hungry, it just wants to feed itself. Whereas accountability and applying food frameworks actually has clarity. And a system in place. Exactly. So I'm not sure if you touch on this in your book, but I will try because I have often said about myself, often as a joke, I guess, but it's a lot of truth in it. And that is that I could never be a politician or a lawyer because I'm too adaptable.

I tend to agree with the last speaker, but maybe more positive word is diplomatic. I would say so. But because this thing really frustrates me a lot today is that we seem to kind of have to be so certain all the time or write or pick a side and stick to it. There's very little room for changing your mind or for having multiple perspectives in your head at the same time. You know, it's kind of this either or black or white, but it's also, oh, I choose this solution.

You can even see it inside the climate space. You have talked about Project Drawdown. So you have people like, okay, if everybody just eat meat, then it will be okay. Or if everybody would just stop flying all this stuff. So we, we, I guess it's a human thing when we need to kind of pick one thing. So is this, this something that you have talked about or come across in your work with this book, that this kind of, this certainty sticking to it?

Oh yes. I have a whole chapter on dichotomous thinking, which is what you're explaining this all or nothing black and white type of thinking. And it is a human flaw. We like to be quick in understanding what's good or bad that will help us evolve and maintain our safety. But that's not applicable to the modern day life. Maybe when we were hunting our food, we had to choose what noise coming from a bush is good or bad. That's not the type of life we're operating in now.

A person is not good or bad. An organization is not good or bad. We have positives and we have flaws. And so there's a lot of that I see in the climate space in particular. You can see that between nature based solutions and tech based solutions. They often argue with one another, but in reality neither solution will save the world. Both will actually help save the world.

We should be reliant on nature's ability to heal and really do a lot of things for us of growth and biodiversity and just a lot of positivity. But then we also have access to innovative tech that can help us scale this work so much faster. And so nature has a lot of time required, whereas tech can be somewhat quick and scalable. And so it's a combination of both. And I think that that sometimes is difficult to say. We like to be on a team and.

And you know, be state, I am a biochar advocate and that's who I am. And that's just simply not how it works. That's also not how science works. The scientific method is something that is constantly evolving and we're constantly iterating on how we can improve and be better.

And if we are advocates of science and we believe in science, then we should be applying that scientific method on the way that we behave, that we're constantly learning and evolving and using information from everything that we can get our hands on. And so I often stress that because it can be, it can be imperfect, the best solutions are also imperfect. Yes, exactly. And I think this, maybe it goes into also the point about taking the middle road.

You should listen to Professor Brad Hayes, that is my guest on another episode. He talks about the middle road and how these extremes in both directions are actually kind of hurtful because the extremes are not chosen by the. By normal people. So we. It's much more productive to. To find the middle road and also the middle ground then of course that we can agree on the goals and yeah. Where we want to go.

Yeah. To those advocates that are, you know, throwing paint on art and making really dramatic representation of their anger in the state of the planet. I empathize with that. But I also question who's the audience who's going to resonate and actually change their behavior because of this anger and frustration that you're displaying in this way? We have to be stronger than that. We have to rise above and actually work together, which is harder to do.

It's much easier to, you know, hold a sign outside of a corporation and yell at people as they exit the building. That's a lot easier than trying to grab a cup of coffee with the CEO of Exxon Mobil and just trying to understand how we can work together because this isn't working. And again, I would stress try to find those common threads of where your interests and motivations are.

One example is in 2019, and I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but in 2019, PG&E was the first company to ever file bankruptcy because of climate change. There were forest fires that went on in California in 2019 that were incredibly damaging. They destroyed so much of the utility system and therefore PG and E filed bankruptcy under the cause being climate change. Now we're looking at wildfires that are still ongoing. As we record they're still ongoing. Winds are picking up again.

There's fears that the wildfires will continue to expand because of this uncontrolled wind. And if I was speaking to an organization that has capital invested in California, I would be talking about how their business is at risk. I do not need to talk to them about how the atmosphere is, the warming potential is growing and that the sea level is rising. I wouldn't focus on that.

What I would be focusing on is that their business is at risk because we're not addressing these risks in a way that is actually preventing these catastrophes from happening. Now, we're speaking the same language. We're talking about profitability and we're talking about long term safety for their business. I'm talking about less wildfires in California and protecting people and our livelihoods. But we're speaking the same language because we found common ground and it's harder to do that.

It takes patience. But it's what's going to actually solve this problem. Yes, very important message, I think.

So looking ahead now, what's your biggest hope for how we can navigate this, this tricky area of climate change? Cancel culture. And maybe especially related to the energy transition and oil and gas sector, I. Think that we are going to unfortunately have to feel the pains of climate change. I don't think climate change is a future problem. It's a now problem. We're experiencing it now. And with that, I think that eyes will continue to open on how this isn't working.

And I think that that can happen on both sides of the spectrum. That can happen with the angry climate activists and it can happen with the disengaged corporate leader. Both will now see that this isn't working because my livelihood is at risk, or my business at risk, or fill in the blank of whatever their priority is. So because of that revelation, I am confident that with the right frameworks and tools and confidence that we will actually be able to come to the table and have a conversation.

I can see that happening in politics when we start to see that certain behaviors don't actually work. And I can see that with the way that we're addressing climate change. And so I hope that we can applaud those that express their vulnerability in how they can navigate climate change and what they're going to try to do if we applaud that.

I would love to see an oil and gas company come out and say we'd love to do it, but this is what's standing in our way and they're met with open arms and ideas. And support. If we could just let that pilot program happen, we could actually see that it's possible to support one another and actually influence change to be the positive. In the book of a hypothetical introduction to a sustainability report written by a hypothetical oil and gas company. And it's really vulnerable.

And they acknowledge that they've contributed so much to climate change, and they're also in a really rough spot because all of their business is invested in oil and gas and national security. Livelihoods, energy use, transportation, all of these industries are reliant on them to expand. So they're confused on how they should grow, and they're looking for ideas, and they're really proud of some of the things that they've done, but they're also not really sure what to do next.

And then their sustainability report is then released. If we could see that as a human admission to wanting to do better, but having challenges and really embracing that, I could see a lot of growth in the way that we address climate change together. Yeah. Oh, that is. That's a great vision. I'm looking forward to that sustainability report. Yeah, I'd love to see that as well. Yeah. Fantastic. So before we wrap up now, the final and really important question here. Where do people get your book?

Oh, thank you. Well, you can go to the website. You can go to cancel cultureandclimate.com. you can also find the book on Amazon. It's available as a ebook or as a paperback. And then I'll be talking on podcasts and doing some events. You can Find me on LinkedIn. Also, Jenny Morgan and I put a lot on there about ways organizations can improve and ways we can communicate with each other. So it's. It's somewhat. My primary focus in life is to leave the world better than I found it.

That's where I really want to just make a mark in that way. That's good to hear. I will put all the links in the information with the episode, of course. Thank you so much for your time, Jenny. This was so interesting and I really. I can't wait to dive into the book and read the whole thing. And best of luck with your promotion and the sales. And I will do my best to promote it and hope everybody will read it. Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciated the conversation. Thank you.

And I can't wait to hear your thoughts on it. I would love for you to tell me what you think. Yes. And no doubt we will talk more in the future because we have so much to talk about. Thank you so much. I really hope you enjoyed this episode. If you found it as interesting as I did, I would love for you to go get Janice's book. And I will of course put the link right in the show notes for you.

Whether you're working hard to make positive changes in your company, navigating the complexities of the oil and gas industry, or helping others on their sustainability journey, I think you'll find this book really helpful. If you're enjoying these conversations, don't forget to hit that subscribe button and I'd love to connect with you. Either you can go to storiesforthefuture.com or find me on LinkedIn for more chats about building a better future. Thanks for being here with me today.

Keep the spirit up and I will be back very soon.