Hey, Grant.
Hey, Crystal.
Do you wanna do a meme or a meme as my grandma calls them?
I I love that. Yes. Let's do that.
Okay. We are San Diegans. We say we're not worried, but we totally are.
Oh, okay. I love this game. We are San Diegans, so of course, we say we want it to rain and then we complain when it does.
Exactly. We are San Diegans. We say we love the Padres, but we don't actually follow the games.
We are San Diegans, so, of course, we love the Padres, and we love the sun more.
True. I think you're gonna win because I can't come out anymore. So so
I'm not gonna win. It's easier when I'm in response mode, but, you know, we're we're interviewing somebody today who knows all about this because he came up with, the we are San Diegans meme and, is one of the defining people in San Diego. In fact, we should do that one. We are San Diegans, so, of course, we interview
Ramel Wallace.
Alright. Well done. Yes. Okay. I love it. So Ramel is an artist, activist, and community builder with deep roots in San Diego. You might recognize him from his hip hop storytelling or his role as the host of Creative Mornings in San Diego or from his video, Where San Diegans, which went viral on Instagram. I don't think that's happening with our versions of that, but maybe. You never know.
I, if it doesn't happen, I'm gonna blame our production assistant Tess. Because that just means we gotta go viral.
Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. As a 4th generation San Diegan, Ramel has a deep passion for the city and particularly the local creative community. In a recent op ed in the San Diego Union Tribune, he discussed San Diego's creative economy, touting Creative's economic impact, and their growing diversity, and the challenges that they face here, particularly with the rising cost of living.
Ramel is also a grantee of Far South Border North, a city tied regional collaborative the Prebys Foundation is a part of that supports artists and cultural practitioners in creating public awareness campaigns. His campaign, the last black man in Barrio Logan, looks at Barrio Logan's rich history rolling into the South Bay, its current challenges, and the significance of cultural preservation. This is a this is gonna be a fun interview.
And, you know, I've heard of Ramel for years. We're really lucky that, our engineer, Adam, has a connection to Ramel, and he's like, you gotta check out this guy. And personally, Grant, I've always wanted to go to creative mornings, but it's in the morning, and I'm not a morning person. Have you been?
I I have been to creative mornings in Pittsburgh, but not in San Diego. And San Diego has one of the largest chapters in the world as we'll be talking about.
Yeah. And I'm excited to hear your conversation with Ramel because I feel like those who are in the know about culture and arts here are really in the know, but the rest of us may not be as plugged in. So I'm excited to see where you take us on this.
Well and he it's partly where he'll take us. One of the joys of interviewing somebody like Ramel is he's got creativity baked in, and he approaches all of his work with a creative bent. And, and I I think one of the one of the reasons we really wanted to talk with him was, aside from our engineer Adam's connection, is that this is a person who's really looking at San Diego's future through an arts and creativity and diversity and futurist lens that I think is important to the future of this community. So I'm I'm looking forward to talking to Ramel about the things that we'll touch on.
Yeah. Good luck in the interview. I'll see you after.
Thank you. We'll talk afterwards. All Alright. Ramel Wallace, I'm so delighted to have you on the program. Thank you for being here.
Thank you for allowing me to be here. It's it's fun to talk about creativity.
Yeah. Well, I I I am I've been so looking forward to this conversation because, in in the work that I've seen of yours, the videos that I've seen of yours, you just radiate creativity, and you're engaged in a lot of interesting things here in San Diego that I think we ought to be talking about, so I'm looking forward to this conversation. You are an artist, an activist, a community builder, you blend a lot of skills, and I think maybe a place to begin is just talking a little bit about you and who you are, so would you, describe briefly for our audience, what you're concentrating your work on right now?
That's a great way to put it. To describe myself, I would have to say that I'm my mama's son.
I love that
That's the best way to describe me, and I try to look at creativity as a way to care as in creativity and care go hand in hand. And if you choose to care, it's one of the most creative things that you can do. And so even when you're in the act of creating, you are sitting with something and you're intimate with that idea or that pencil or that paper. And so I just wanna remind people to have that intimacy with their lives. I've been a hip hop artist for 15 plus years and telling stories through that outlet. And that led me into emceeing, like, the master of ceremonies. So now, hosting creative mornings and giving people a platform to tell their stories.
And I really wanna come back to the, to the work that you're doing through Creative Mornings, but I love this idea of you're being your mama's son. So is that did she teach you that or model that? Oh, she modeled that.
Yeah. And she taught me without knowing that she's teaching me. My mom's name is Nia. And so that means purpose. And so, I feel like I'm completing my mother's purpose And that's to be within community, that's to be a voice for the community, and that's to listen to people as much as I can. And if I have it correct, Nia is a holiday or one of the days of Kwanzaa.
Mmm
And so it's literally about bringing community together and speaking for that voice. So, I'm walking in that sense of I'm my mama's son because I'm my mama's purpose.
Yeah. I I actually got goosebumps when you said that because I was thinking about the the foundation's theme for our work for the year is all around purpose, you know we have this idea of community well-being, being anchored in a sense of belonging, a sense of opportunity, and then a sense of purpose. How did you come by the purpose of being an artist? Because what your mama, I'm sorry. I keep calling her your mom like that.
Your mom. What your mom conveyed to you was a sense of purpose, but how for you did that come into being as an artist?
I've always learned that you have to learn to articulate yourself. And so, one of the the the things for my company called the Holyfield, which is like the back end of everything that I do, They do the admin of, like, all the artistry and, like, PR of all the artistry that you see me in is artifacts articulate my arteries.
And so I have to look at the bones and and the arteries and the veins of myself and articulate that and and turn it into some sort of artifact. And when I think about artifacts, I think about the word art, and I think about something that's like, very beautiful that you discover. So I try to implement that into, the things that I create. And for me, that's the foundation of what hip hop is. Mhmm.
If you look at the creation and the history of how hip hop was created, the fact that it came after the civil rights, it was a way to tell stories for people to remember. And so, there's something that's political about it. There's something that is historical about it. There's something that's cultural about it. It's not just words to rhyme
Mhmm.
But finding a purpose behind why you're telling your story so that people can, can marinate on it.
Yeah. In your, in your we're San Diegans videos, which which really took off online. You talk about concepts that are familiar to everyone, of course, around love of tacos, and I I particularly love the one about people who are being born here not wanting anybody to know that, but but you're also in a very wry kind of dry humor way, candid about issues around race, and, and and how San Diego does or doesn't deal with those. Were those themes always evident in your art, would you say?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. From from the jump, even, like, learning about 5 Percenters from my my step grandfather, that was always implemented it into everything. You, like, you had to have some sort of educational, portion of what you're doing or there's not a complete purpose.
I'm hoping that we're, going to get to play a couple of those clips on air as part of this podcast, but, I if if we can't or even if we can, I'd love to hear how did you get the idea for We're San Diegans, and and how did you get the ideas for some of the themes? What were what were the ones that were most important to you?
Well well, first off, I was just shopping for my family. It was Christmas, and I was like, oh, there's this we're sisters video Yeah. That's really popular. And I always see trends as opportunities to, step into a dialogue. Mhmm.
And so this was a major trend, and a lot of people were stepping into this dialogue. And I know so much about San Diegans and people from San Diego. I've been here for 35 years. I can point out a personality of a San Diegan, and it is sort of, like, dry. It's it hasn't been documented enough. It's funny, and we really enjoy each other. And the things that stick out about that one to me, I don't know. Maybe the the how we can spot someone that's in the military.
Oh, I love that. Yes.
That one really resonated with people
Where you comment that, we don't need to be told that you were in the we know. Yeah. I think was was what you something like that.
I Yeah. I think it was like, you could probably beat me up right now. I don't I don't wanna be I'm going to mind my words.
Yeah. Yeah.
The tacos were a big thing. Yeah. But then, like, you know, reminding people that we're right by the biggest cross border in the world. How can we talk about just the beaches? How can we talk about just the weather when politically and socially, we're part of one of the biggest narratives that are going to be part of the election that are already part of our lives.
How are we going to talk about these concepts? I feel like you have to mix them together. You have to weave something like make that quilt of what is the reality of San Diego, like along with the humor with someone that's actually from San Diego, like there's a different perspective. And oddly enough, it's not always heard from the natives because you might get 10 people in a room and 2 people are going to be from San Diego. And so for the more for for the most part, you hear from people that are not San Diegans.
So as a San Diegan, and we have this very unique perspective. And a lot of times, we waste too much time trying to down people that are not from San Diego. Right. Those people make San Diego what it is because there's a certain drive that, like, Detroit might bring out here. We got people from St.
Louis, New York, like, all over the world, Germany. Like, it's so interesting that we get all these stories, all these perspectives from San Diego, and it expands our creativity when we absorb all of these cultures.
Yeah. I'd as somebody who's a newcomer myself, I've been here 2 years now, I really appreciate that appreciation, because I do think having lived in a community where that sort of influx of people was missing, it is part of the special vibrancy of San Diego that we have so many folks from so many different places. But I also appreciate how you're calling out the perspective of people who were born and raised here and know the community intimately, and have seen it change a lot. Something you said a moment ago, Ramel, about the border really resonated for me because I we we are doing a lot of work in thinking about borders and celebrating that as part of our culture, but what we've noticed at the foundation is that communicate that that conversation doesn't always happen naturally in this community. And here we are at this amazing location, and and the the confluence of people and ideas and cultures that happens here is part of our special sauce, and it's hard and and it's not naturally or organically part of the conversation about what we celebrate.
So I I appreciated you drawing attention to it in those videos, but why do you think we struggle with it?
Oh, man. That's such a great question. I feel like a lot of people go come into San Diego thinking about what they've been told about it instead of saying, let's explore. Geographically, it's also hard to move around San Diego. I feel like we've been one of the biggest affected cities when it comes to redlining, when it comes to gentrification, when it comes to separation.
And we're still separated in a lot of these ways. Like, I, I really didn't get the full grasp of how close the border was until I moved down to national city. Even having grown up in like Barrio Logan, like moving down to national city, like you're entering the South Bay, the border starts to really come to you
Yeah
And you're engulfed in those communities. You're more surrounded. The elote man is going down the street and elote elote elote love that. I love that. It's happening. You're tasting new foods. You're discovering new cultures. You're getting new friends and you're getting this intimate perspective and what that proximity does with intimate perspective. And bell hooks talks about it.
When you have an intimate relationship, friendship with someone you learn about their culture differently, Like you sit down and you have dinner with their families. Like, it's a it's a different type of perspective that you have, and you really start to it really starts to enter your life when you enter the South Bay.
This is such a powerful concept, and I'm, you know, I'm thinking about how I have grown to really love this community over the course of the past 2 years, and the reasons for that have deepened over the 2 years. You know, I had one set of reasons when I arrived here. Some of them might have had to do about with weather, which turned out to be a lie or slightly misleading.
Right.
But I you know, they've deepened over time, and I I think so often what we fall in love with with play about places is superficial, and what you're describing is the whole process of coming into deeper relationship. Is is that how you think about your art?
Yeah. It's an opportunity to be intimate with myself, my experiences, and to get in touch with them because I love how you said that. Yeah. There's a superficial, there's a superficial view that people fall in love with. I feel like there is media that PR San Diego, like, it gets dropped a lot in the media or someone might spin a globe around and stop and say, oh, I'm gonna move to San Diego.
And and it becomes that place where you escape. Yeah. And then San Diego was this people pleaser as well. Like, it gives you everything.
Yeah.
And, my stepfather, he's from New York, and he explained it to me, like, you know what? San Diego is also easy to live in. It's not just weather, and that's nice, but you don't have to, you know, start your car, like, 40 minutes before when it's the wintertime, and you can just hop in your car and go drive somewhere. So there's a simplicity that I understand why people fall in love with, but there's also, more than that. And I encourage people to do that and to look, look at their relationship in a creative way to San Diego, because there's so much more here than what they tell you.
Yeah. And that and it's so clear in your We Are San Diegans videos that that's the story you're you're telling, because it touches on all of it. Right? I mean you've got the things that people have in their minds, and then you go from there. What is it like to be an artist in San Diego? Let's talk about that. You talk about creativity a lot, it's the focus of your work. It's what drives your work. But what is it like to be an artist here?
I think that it's hard because for anybody that's in San Diego, it's hard to live because it's so expensive. And as the artist, you're always looking for, you know, say the payout or the grant or the album that's gonna lead you to success so that you can survive here. I got 2 bags on me. I got 2 laptops. I'm coming off a Google migration at work. I'm thinking about creative things. I'm working on a gallery called Black Barrio Logan. And so,
You have some, some stuff going on.
Yeah. There's a and and I'm just a reflection of all these artists that have stuff going on. They're trying to think about ways to survive, and they're trying to think about paying rent. And so creativity goes into that as well. Not we're not just creative in the sense of we can make a mural really good, but creativity in the sense of survival is something that we practice in San Diego.
I, Ramel, I so appreciate that connection of creativity to survival because you hear about that a lot from artists, but the idea of having to apply your creative skills to the to the process of just making ends meet. I actually think that was in the We Are San Diegans video as well. The you know, the idea of of how close artists are at any one moment to, to being in desperate straits. Oh, I forgot about
that part. It was such a natural thing that I just was speaking from my experience. But, yeah, I was like, we we're nice to the homeless because one day we might be them. That's what you
yeah. It was, well, and and I you know what? Again, what I what I appreciated about that whole approach is how you you knitted together the things you see. Oh, and as somebody who's seen this community through, through, experienced eyes for a long time. So thank you for that.
I I may come back to that because it's just I I just think it's fabulous, but, let's talk about some of your other work. You're the head of something called Creative Mornings here, and tell us a little bit about that organization, What's important to it and to you in that work.
I am the host. I'm so humbled by being the host of creative mornings is basically, it's a global conversation and it's the biggest breakfast lecture series in the world. And so we're in about 67 countries. There are 200 plus chapters around the world. So if you go into any major city, there's going to be a creative mornings.
That's going to be a lecture every last Friday of the month. There's going to be free coffee and free donuts, and there's going to be a community that is very receptive. I just so happen to be the host of creative mornings in San Diego. And it's the 8th biggest chapter in the world. And it's been an amazing experience just to hear different creative people's stories and to expand and diversify that community itself so that it sees creativity in all these ways that, I've been had, that I've been able to, experience for myself.
Now it's open to anybody. Right? Can anybody
Anybody can go is free. Yeah. But I I'd be telling people to just go. Don't even if you don't register, show up.
That's okay. You heard it here, folks, from the host. How do you think how do you think that San Diego came to have the 8th largest chapter of creative mornings in the world? That's extraordinary. I mean, we're the we're we're we're the 8th largest city or so in America, but the 8th largest chapter in the world is pretty significant. How did that happen?
Shout out to Nate and shout out to grizzly, which is his design and branding firm that ended up getting really big after the pandemic. Without Nate, without Grizzly, Creative Mornings would not be where it is today.
And can you quickly tell us who Nate is for the audience's sake?
Yes. Nate is the original host of Creative Mornings. He started it out here in San Diego, and he ran that, from 2,000, I want to say 15 to 2020. And I took over in 2021 until now. And so he laid the foundation, he used his community. He, he used that idea of this loneliness epidemic, the fact there's that there are so many creatives in San Diego and that branding has a strong hold on San Diego and telling stories. He it's just something that he's really good at.
Yeah. And and how did you come into the role? How did you succeed him?
I showed up. I showed up. I I remember I went to my first creative mornings, maybe 2016, and I would just follow the free food. So I said free coffee, free donuts. I'm there. You ain't even gonna say nothing else. And I showed up and it was an amazing community. I heard a really good lecture. They dropped nuggets that I could apply to my life. And I said that I wanted to be a part of this.
And I think I did a post afterwards that said it was like me with some coffee or some donuts that said, oh, I want to talk at the next creative mornings, but really the work in just showing up and building community is what got me into hosting. And I was also a speaker in 2017, And, I changed the format and kind of called it out for, you know, being a white space.
Mhmm.
And that there's so many other forms of creativity that aren't being acknowledged. And so, I think that you can step into spaces, but still, you know, notice that there can be a change there. And I think there's a boldness that people really respect when you do that. And so, it was relationships and it was, speaking my truth.
Yeah. Say more about that if you would for a moment about changing the format. What how did you decide that you wanted to do it differently?
I've had so many conversations with random people on the street that have been life changing conversations in homes that have been life changing. I would say around 2015, there was a certain format that Ted talk would kind of use. You could even just look at the hand gestures and say, I kinda know where this speech is going. And my talk was not like that. I went to the stage like a WWF wrestler. I had everybody stand up and everything, and it was a little chaotic, but enough to ground people
Mhmm.
To know that this is
Different.
This is different right here, but I'm still receptive to it, and it's using elements that I haven't seen and talking about, race in this diplomatic way
Yeah.
That's still bold and creative and telling people that they have the ability to change.
So what do you look for in now that you're the host, what do you look for in speakers?
I mostly look for speakers that align with the theme. Each month has its own theme, and then someone that has been, that has something coming up. Because I work in PR. I have a, PR kind of background. And so it's really good to line things up.
Like you don't want something to happen and then you don't have say like a, a show or a gallery coming up or maybe something to buy afterwards. So look at people's trajectory and when their projects are coming out and try to help them with that with that launch. But in a sense of, you know, who's really creative, we're looking at, at everything like your presence on social media. We're looking at the artwork that you create, and we're looking at the conversations that we're missing.
Oh, interesting. So one of your themes for creative mornings is that everyone is creative. Yes. And you're looking for speakers who embody that in multiple ways.
Multiple ways.
And you hope that they will convey to people in the audience ways in which they can be creative in their own lives. Is that right?
Yes.
Yeah. It's a, my my experience with creative mornings in other places has been, that it does that well. And so hats off to you for what you're trying to do. Do you think, you have this big chapter in San Diego. Do you think the message is getting out there?
Yeah. The message is it's it's wild to see that this space has changed and also kept a lot of its original elements. But I see the change in the conversations that we have with the people that are, that are there. They're like, this feels different. Like I'm hearing different voices. One of my favorite ones is there was a, a death doula named Sarah. She came and spoke. Mhmm. And a lot of people haven't even heard of what a death doula is, but they guide you through that process of death. Mhmm.
And she's telling this story, and I kid you not the room, everybody crying in the room. I don't think I besides, like, funerals, like, I ain't been in a joy, like, cry. Like, this was an experience. This was spiritual. Wow. Wow.
And she was showing us the process of her father transitioning, but also bringing in all these creative things that he loved, the books that he loved, the colors that he loved, the things that he fell in love with, the the artwork that was created, these artifacts, these artifacts of his life,
Right
so we were seeing that, oh, this is also why we love things and we want to remember them. And so, people coming up to me and and reassuring that, oh, wow. That just happened.
Yeah. Powerful, powerful stuff. Are there any other talks that stand out to you in that fashion?
Oh, DaShay's talk stands out in another fashion, where DaShay is a a long friend, she's a DJ, and she just did a really cool talk. And then at the end of it, because it was her birthday, we saw the, the, the black happy birthday, But it was so joyous. It was just ridiculous. I was like, who noticed the black happy birthday? And then my friend came out and she sang it beautifully. And so we were able to show a bunch of white folks, like
Doing the
yes. Yes. Doing a good because we got a bunch of black folks that day doing a good happy birthday. So, you know, shout out to Stevie Wonders.
And before we move on from that, so who typically comes? You said anybody. Every everybody's invited, but is it is it typically a young crowd? Typically, you know, what what what's the composition of the group?
Yeah. I would say, like, creatives come, like, a lot of people that do graphic design, that are in video, a lot of people that are, say, freelancers come, poets come, the thread that I really see are storytellers, people that wanna tell some sort of story or get to know how to tell a story better because they may have a brand, a product, something that they've created, and they wanna be able to tell that story of what that product or brand is. Yeah. Maybe there's, like, 18 to 40 that go. And, yeah, it's a it's a it's a lot of variety of people.
I, I think what you're doing is for people who are looking for sources to feed that engine of creativity or just to get back in touch with it. You're providing such a powerful service, so thank you for for that. I I I feel like I wouldn't be doing you justice though if, if I didn't also mention the other hats you wear. So you mentioned the Holyfield, your that's your that's sort of your backbone business that you use to stay alive as an artist. And or, and then, you are also, affiliated with the San Diego African American Museum of Fine Art.
Yes. Tell us a little bit about what you do there.
I'm on the board, and I do a lot of their marketing. I help them with their website, and I get the word out about what they're doing. And one of the missions is to preserve black culture. So that's kind of become, I guess, gas in my engine for anything that I do, whether it's the holy field or whether it's creative mornings, I wanna be able to preserve black culture. Right now, we have a Kehinde Wiley piece in, Balboa Park, And so I help them talk about these things, I help them curate events, and, yeah.
Do you see, black culture as threatened or imperiled in San Diego in any way?
Without a doubt.
Yeah. Can you say more about that?
But my passion is always twisted around towards important things need to be talked about. And a lot of black culture is not actually talked about and so to to preserve things for everyone's sake, you have to preserve black culture. Like, the preservation of black culture is a reminder to preserve all these other cultures. And, it it is at at risk and at threat. There's a war on DEI. There's a war on wokeness. There's a war on all these words that represent a different version of my culture.
Yeah. Yeah.
And so, yeah, there is a threat, but my focus is, it just needs to be preserved.
Right. Yeah. And I I I I I it just strikes me you're you, mentioning the attack on wokeness. It's so true that it enjoyed about a nanosecond as a as actually a word of praise in the black community for people who sort of got got it. And and all of a sudden, in an, you know, in the blink of an eye, it was co opted as an attack.
And so I I think it's important for people to hold what you're talking about when you're talking about, the threat on Black culture. That it's not simply a numbers game or demographics in San Diego. It's it's also about where we are culturally in terms of aligning with those values.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And especially looking at, looking at numbers.
Mhmm.
You never want the people that are, the minorities to be, taken advantage of.
Right.
You never want the the powerless to be taken advantage of. That's not a good way to build a foundation for society.
Right. Well, and I think I think what we fundamentally know in our in our better moments, especially in a place like San Diego, is that we are made better by this mix of people. And so if that is true, then we wanna hold on to the strengths of all of them. And I think that's why the concept of belonging has been so central for the Prebys Foundation that we just see that as so important to the narrative of the future of the country, and that San Diego is probably better equipped as a community to tell it than any other place.
That's right. That's right.
So you also since we're on that subject, you also, are affiliated with BAM.
Oh, yeah. BAM. Yes.
So tell me tell me about that too.
BAM is a PR marketing firm. And so they're adjacent to the tech industry. And we basically get people published in different publications. So it might be Forbes, it might be Inc, and I'm the senior community manager.
So, I'm so happy that I've been able to kinda fuse my life into things that kinda work together because the fact that I'm at Bam, I can be here on, like, a a weekday. Yeah. And, yeah, I like the idea of of, you know, technology. AI is coming around. How's that gonna affect creativity?
And I think it's smart to really learn how technology works and also this VC world works. Cause, you know, Prebys Foundation is giving so much opportunity and and so many funds to people that are doing amazing things and giving a voice to people in San Diego. But then there's also this VC world that's giving out, funding and things,
Huge money. Huge money.
and it's like, oh, wow. Yeah. How does it work? How can I take some elements from here and apply it to what I'm doing as well? Yeah.
Well, it's fascinating. I'm I said you wear many hats, but what is really interesting is how you thread them together, and it's all around that, it's around creativity, and it's around community. So, I I just I think you're leading a very interesting life.
Oh, thank you. Thank you.
I, so what are you what projects are are most interesting to you right now? I know, you know, you were selected, as an artist for Far South Border North, which is an individual artist program that the foundation also supported. Tell us about that project and what got you into it.
What got me into that project, being a part of the San Diego African American Museum of Fine Art. They, they give me so much information in game and and, they let me know about things that are happening because sometimes you have to dig for information. And so I'm so grateful that I was introduced to that grant. And what I'm working on with that grant is a gallery called black Barrio Logan. Before the where San Diegans video, I did a video called the last black man in barrio Logan.
And that was me telling my story about my great grandma moving from Pensacola, Florida to Barrio Logan in the sixties. And not only did she live there, but my grandma lived there too. And my aunt lived there and my mom lived there and my dad lived there and I grew up there when I was young as well, and we didn't own this house. So the big coincidence was why did we all live there? And that was because of redlining.
And that was because of, you know, government sanctions and and real estate agents and banks working together. And so I was telling that story and that video went super viral and I started to dig deeper into what that story was and that led me into the, that led me into discovering that Barrio Logan was once a black neighborhood. And so documenting what that looks like, that's part of the black Barrio Logan experience. And so I step into it where you take my point of view. I had a gallery called the church in Barrio Logan from 2014 to 2018, and I was also living down there.
I was discovering this story that my family didn't have a sense of pride in because there was this hidden discrimination of just that's the only place we could live.
Right. And
so I was discovering this history and kind of turning that, that monster into a masterpiece. Like how can I flip this story and learn more about it? And so, I learned about, the black community that was in downtown and the Douglas and the Harlem of the west, and then how people ended up migrating to Barrio Logan and how that pink church is was a black Baptist church and black folks built that church. And so, not only talking about the black history, but it's called black barrio Logan. It's all of those words.
What does that proximity do when you can have that intimate conversation and relationship and proximity to the Mexican and Hispanic community? What does that look like as well? And so I take pictures from the church. We're gonna take pictures from other times as well and give you that experience as well as a conversation about housing and redlining and why San Diego is shaped like this. Right.
Right. It's gonna be a future is color. And I think by the time that this is out, it's it's gonna be just open and probably until the end of summer.
Yeah. This is this is an amazing story. I I mean, certainly, some of the themes that you touch on, Justin, what you outlined, you know, people do need to know and understand the extent to which redlining was a significant force in shaping the history of this community. And it's fascinating to understand the genesis of a neighborhood and who lived there before. The people who live there now live there.
I'm curious, as an artist, when you're doing a project like that, are you trying to just tell a story or are you thinking about what you want people to take away from it?
Stepping into it, I feel like I I want people to take away a certain thing from it, but then I try to remove that because I can't control that. so I try to tell the story as accurately and as creative. And as from my perspective, along with, David Colon, he's a photographer I'm working with our 2 perspectives and then really, document and then ask people, what is what is this for you?
Yeah.
Because when I did that viral video, the last black man in Barrio Logan, I was telling my story, but it was so many other people's stories that, I was humbled by that. And that's one of the biggest experiences. How are other people gonna gonna interpret this, and how can it affect and change their lives?
I like that methodology because I think that so often when we set out to tell people what they should know or think, that's not what they end up knowing or thinking because because that's not how they receive the message. But when you simply tell a story about your own experience and make it open enough that others can add their own stories to it, then it takes off or can, I think? And that's what you experienced here. Is that a fair description of what happened?
That's a fair description of what's happening. And it and it makes me think of something like like DEI. Where one of the things that you do is you you you use I statements. Mhmm. You talk from your perspective because you can't really control anybody else's and you don't know anybody else's perspective. So we've been taking this something that we might apply to minorities, but saying, like, oh, no. This using these points of view can help us with communication.
Yeah. So let's go back to your mom for a moment and her the lesson she taught you which you internalized. The Prebys Foundation has, I mentioned earlier, has adopted this idea for our work of how how we wanna work in a space that ultimately is about, a a good and healthy community. So community well-being is how we refer to it. It's kind of a health mindset, but at a community level.
And part of what we believe is that, communities are healthy when the people inside them really feel like they belong there, regardless of who they are. And when the people who are in that community feel that they can be successful in some way, shape, or form at whatever it is they wanna do. They can feed their families. They can enjoy a decent life. That's opportunity.
And then and then maybe the pinnacle of it all is that they can find their unique life purpose in that community. You know, this is a place where it may not it may not do it for them, but it will it will enable them, empower them to find that sense of purpose that drives them in their lives. As you think back on what you've just described with the work that you're doing, how are art how can I wanna connect what you're doing as an artist with with what I just described? Well, first of all, I should ask you a simple question. Does all of that resonate for you?
That's a that's a good question. That I'm trying to catch it. I'm trying to catch all of the ones. Because what you talked about, my mom Yeah. And, what she would always tell me is that, you know, a mouth can say anything.
It's what you have to do. What you have to do is look at people's actions. And so creativity is like the foundation of a lot of people's potential actions. You have to see what they, what they create, and it can be a safe space when you go out there and create amongst other people.
Right.
But one of the, the main things that I really get is a framework. When I'm working with the museum, I get a framework of how things can be pictured. And look, when I'm talking to my mom, I get a framework of how I can move through life through someone that loves me. What does love look like when I'm, when I'm here at the podcast, I get a framework of what this looks like the waters that are here, the papers that are around. A lot of us don't have frameworks even for health.
And so when it comes to creativity, you are articulating who you are. You're building a framework for yourself. It's so hard to see the self. Sometimes you have to create the self in order to see the self in order to care about the self in order to say, I don't feel good or this air does not feel right where I'm at or something's not right. Right. You need a framework that has has said those things or articulated it before and said that it's okay.
There's so much in that statement. I mean, it's incredibly powerful concept. Part of what comes up for me is just, yeah, we have to help people be able to have the structures and the language that allows them to enter into the work you're describing. But I'm also taking that, from this conversation, the centrality of creativity in the future of this community. You know, I think I think what I believe and now wanna talk about more is that the future of San Diego really does hinge on unleashing the creativity that is here more.
And I so appreciate the work. That's what I see you doing. And I it's why I think we wanted to have you on this podcast. And, I I just so appreciate your efforts to make San Diego the creative engine that it can be. So, Ramel, if, folks who are listening want to connect with Black Barrio Logan, where how how can
they do it? You can check out Future is Color. It's just gonna be on the walls. It's right there on Lowrider Lane, and it will be there hopefully until the end of summer.
Fantastic. Alright. Future is color. Future is color. Love it. Thank you for being with us.
Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I loved your questions, and I'm taking notes on how to be a better interviewer.
Oh, you're great. I will take that as the ultimate compliment, Ramel. Thank you.
Thank you.
So much to think about from that episode.
Goodness. Yes.
So I I need a little help. So k. Ramel talked about artifacts articulate my arteries.
Oh, you would start with with the easy concept, wouldn't you? Yeah. Yeah. So your question is, what was he driving at?
Yeah. Break it down for me.
That's Well, you know, I can do my I can do my version. I I think I think this was really an important perspective from an artist, because I think what he was saying is there are there are so many passions and forces that shape our lives, from the historical to the systemic to the spiritual, you know all of that, and I think those are the arteries for him. But then to make them manifest, you know to bring them into the world so that we have clarity about them, that's the role in many ways of art, and so artifacts become a way of expressing these these otherwise very almost ethereal things. And for an artist, for him as an artist, become a way of bringing into the room and into the conversation this deeper understanding of the world that's happening in the background all the time. That's what I interpreted it as, and I does that resonate with you?
I think it does. I used to do a training, for communications, entry level folks, and I'd say, I want you to look back and think about all the the cookie crumbs you're gonna leave behind, because all of those things really are a reflection of who we are as a culture. Or you think about an AP history test where you have to analyze an old commercial and write about it. And and I think that there is that element. But for him, it just felt so deeply personal.
What what did you take away in terms of, how he lives that creativity? Like, it just seems so deep, I I felt.
Well, again, you know, an expression of I I I a line that I use a lot, almost as a joke, but that lots of people use is everything is a metaphor. And, you know, there this is this is something that we all have accessible to us at any moment in our own expression of creativity. If we think about what are the things I'm doing, what are the things I'm thinking, what are the things I'm expressing, or what is this event or or thing that's happening in my life? What does it stand for for me? And just that process of stepping back and reflecting on what something represents, I think again is the role of the artist.
It, it it helps us see the deeper meaning behind, everyday life that otherwise feels overwhelming and pressing in all the time. You know, what struck me in a just to leap off of that point for a moment in this interview well, there's so much that struck me in this interview. But one of the things that struck me was just the the bread and butter reality of being an artist in San Diego. You know, it is it is, hard, and Ramel, demonstrates that without complaining by having multiple businesses and multiple hats, even as he pursues his creativity. And that we hear that from artists a lot in San Diego.
It makes me think of when you spoke with Phylicia Shaw. Right? We talk about the, nobility of the struggle, but it's like, no. You know, sometimes you see people juggling 3 or 5 things, and maybe it's because they love it, but it's also because they need to survive.
Exactly. Yeah.
And the fact that he just seems to also radiate joy while trying to juggle 5 things and while trying to express and connect, For me, that's really inspiring, but what did you take
I'd I'd exactly the same thing. You know, I I he clearly, has a love of San Diego, and a joy about life, and a joy about about what he get what he does, and a joy about living in this place. I think though if you if you really look at the, you know, we're from San Diego, so we meme, theirs are they're very dry and rye in some ways too. And there's there are serious messages that come through here.
And what I hear him saying in that venue, much the same as he did in this interview, is that he, he loves this place and it could be better, you know. It can like any community, there are ways in which it can improve by looking at tough parts of its history, or looking at certain behaviors, not ones that we joke about, you know, with the tacos, and the and the french fries, and, you know, it's it's more about, you know, composition of the community and how how the community behaves.
Yeah. That I think what you're saying there really resonates with me because even though my family is from here, I did not realize how black Barrio Logan had been at some point. So the fact that he is using his far south border north work to express this and
Yeah.
Talk about redlining and things that I think I don't think it's even malicious on a lot of folks' parts. I think we just don't know this history. Right? So he's unearthing this thing that I'm excited to see this summer.
Yeah. I'd it's a funny thing about being human. We tend to imagine that the world was always like the way we find it, And, you know, we see Barrio Logan actually going through changes today, but this isn't the first time that the community has faced change, and where it's demography and makeup has faced tensions and pressures. I think that was a beautiful part of the story that he was that he that he's telling through this project. I also love the fact that he's using far south border north as the context for that, because what could easily get lost in in that framing is the narrative of the multiple, ethnicities and races that make up this particular community.
And this is an extra I've I've said this before. It's amazing to me coming in from the outside as I did a couple of years ago. One of the incredible strengths of San Diego is this wealth of diverse peoples who all meet up in this one place, as I like to say between the desert and the sea. You know, we just really have this magical spot. And he is using the occasion of the far south border north piece to celebrate an often forgotten chapter in that in that narrative.
And I realize, Grant, you and I know what Far South Border North is. Maybe if you're an artist or a grantee, you might know. What is Far South Border North?
Yeah. Far South Border North was, a, a a project started by, the county and and artists in this community, in response to a challenge from the state, that was really designed to support the work of individual artists in California. That, by the way, is a very visionary program because California, more than almost any other state in the union, depends heavily on creativity for its economic growth and vitality and image, And celebrating individual artists, I think is a really critical part of that. So Far South Border North was our particular program in this in in San Diego to celebrate individual artists as part of that program. It was funded, in part by the state, and also by the Conrad Prebys Foundation, which we were very proud to do because we just see the role of artists as being incredibly integral to the the path that this community is on.
With what you're saying with the the city and with the state, I guess I don't always appreciate government's role in advancing art and someone like Ramel really digging in on how do I connect people based on the history and the connections. But this other connection I noticed you and Rommel had in the interview, You seem to really brighten up when he talked about his mom and Yeah. His mom's purpose. Will will you say some say more about that?
Well, you know, I brightened up a lot when I was talking with Ramel because he's just one of these people who has kind of an you you mentioned this. He's got kind of this infectious joy about him. So, it is fun to talk to him even as he makes you think and gives you pause. But I just really loved the story he shared of being, as he referenced it, his mama's son. And, I mean, he got me so caught up in it.
I started referring to his mother as his mama, and it just it was so natural, in in how he orients himself in the world. And his mother's name is Nia, which he shared with us, is means purpose. And he sees himself as carrying forward in some ways her purpose in the world that he gets to be an extension of of that legacy. And I thought that was incredibly powerful. You know, there was an honoring of ancestry there, and also a tapping into this really deeply resonant idea that we we are at our best when we have a purpose in life, you know, when we have a reason that we're pursuing, the activities we're pursuing the world and that animates us.
And I think that came out of the story with his mom.
I mean, I I guess the more I think about that, right, he's living his mother's purpose, that extension. Like, do you feel like we as San Diegans are living the living out the purpose of those who came before us?
Well, I I think if I put wrap all of this in a neat bow, you know, here's and you know the filter I see San Diego through and the work of philanthropy through. I think what Ramel is saying through his combination of wit and humor and insight and truth telling and storytelling is that San Diego is this amazing dynamic place and it can do even better and greater things in the world than than we imagine are possible right now. That's what we believe, and I I think that's what he is what he is tapping into through his work. You know, a couple of thoughts that I think were really important for, for takeaways in terms of philanthropy, one was, where he talked about how trends are are opportunities to step into dialogue, and he really spoke about the importance of conversation, the importance of engaging with people, the importance of meeting people where they are. And I think there if there is a message that our society generally, not just this community, but every community in the United States of America needs right now, that's that's a resonant message that we should all be paying attention to.
The other thing that he said that was magical for me was that caring is creativity, you know, that we the way in which whoever we are, if we think of ourselves as an artist or not, when we step into caring for other human beings, we are being creative human beings. That that felt beautiful to me.
Yeah. That stood out to me. It gave me pause just because I think when I'm in a hurry or I don't have a chance to connect with folks, I'm like, save the creativity for later. Right? Like, do my to do list.
But if that's the lens I'm approaching the world and approaching San Diego or even approaching our work with, I think it changes like, what what I got from Ramel and your conversation with him is also just the ability to focus in on creativity as a bridge between people. And so, yeah, I gotta sit with that.
Yeah. Well, I you know, we tend to we tend to privilege the word creativity in the same way we privilege the word leadership. You know, we think of leaders as the people standing in front of the room. We think of creatives as the artist painting at an easel, or or writing the script for the TV show, and and in Ramel's case, it's true. But but for both of those words actually signify very common, widely distributed human talents that we all have the opportunity to exercise in some way, and I think what Ramel was asking us to tap into was being creative, and being a leader through being creative, And that was a pretty cool challenge.
And it's actually a challenge that we all I don't care what walk of life you're in, or what role or title you think you have, or how fancy it is or not fancy. That's a message you could take home.
Let's end there. Ding ding ding.
Alright. Beautiful. Thank you. Crystal, it's a joy.
Thank you, Grant.
This is a production of the Prebys Foundation, hosted by Grant Oliphant, and co hosted by Krystal Page. The program is co produced by Crystal Page and Adam Greenfield, and it's engineered by Adam Greenfield. Production assistance is provided by Tess Karesky. And our new theme song is by mister Lyrical Groove, a local San Diego artist. Download episodes at your favorite podcatcher or visit us at stop and talk podcast.org.
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