Hi everyone welcome to the still to be determined podcast. This is the podcast that follows up on topics from the Youtube channel undecided with Matt ferrell I as you may know already am not Matt ferrell I'm sean ferrell I'm Matt's older brother I'm a writer and I'll be asking the questions with me is of course matt. Hello.
Matt say hello. We also have a another guest with us today. It's rob van der weil rob say hi and people who are regular listeners or viewers are probably scratching their heads saying. Hi there Nice to be here. Matt sean it's usually just 2 bald men. We're branching out. We're trying to bring in all the bald men. So and rob is here because he lended a hand in crafting the episode with
matt. How it's 3 So he has another perspective to add to the conversation and we're looking forward to talking to him about this today's episode we're going to be focusing on Matt's most recent episode which was titled solar panels plus farming question Mark agrovoltaics explained. Always a question mark. And this was from October Fifth Twenty Twenty one and right off the bat I saw in the comments there was a lot of very positive response
to this. This is an idea that really seems to hit a ah, an intersection of needs. Yeah. In a very unique Way. So The public response seems to be This is great. But as you point out, there's a lot of pressure pushing back the other direction from people who are concerned about things changing in their environment where they live. In ways that might impact their lives and sadly governmental bureaucracy which just hasn't caught up to being able to bring this into communities in a way that
makes sense and I'm wondering from both of you. Do you get a sense that those 2 things. Are actually 1 thing is there public pressure being put on politicians to keep things the way they are or is there a lack of movement by government that is allowing for concretized thinking to stay in place. Here's what you think rob. Well it it I think it depends on where you live where I live our governments especially in the in the Eu are actually very open to these kinds of Concepts but they struggle
to give this these concepts a proper place and it has all. All to do with current regulations and current ways of land use and and the way that we even work with them you you might have seen in in in the video that there is some regulation that the Eu has. That actually subsidizes land use for agriculture and if if you put something else on that land that subsidy that that might go away so it's a thorny subject there at that at that point. Um, yeah. But I guess that in other places in the world
that it's an entirely different ball game. Yeah I think here in the Us. It's mainly the free market which seems to rule everything here and there's a conservative bent that doesn't I don't think there's a cabal that's working against something like this I think it's just a slow moving reality that we're watching Unfold. And there's not a lot of
government support pushing it yet. And do you think that it's a matter of public education mainly like getting getting this information out in in front of the public to allow people to see what would this look like like 1 of the things that you point out is I love that there's a parallel between. High-tech version of farming raspberries and the low techch version. Both of them need to protect the plants. 1 of them is just using
plastic Tarps the other 1 with solar panels. It really doesn't change the product underneath it really. It solves certain problems like you mentioned. The workers have better shade. The plants are better protected in case of larger storms. That's a kind of image of what this kind of farming could look like that really isn't 1 that people would have if they were just told. What would you think about putting solar panels on a farm.
Right? Yeah I do think there's there's a public education angle to this that needs to happen I was just talking to rob before the call of I just saw a story about in France they're becoming more of a semi-arid climate region and it's been impacting the. Ah, vineyards and the grapes that they're growing and there was this story I saw about the Aggravville ticks over a vineyard and how his grapes were you know, plump and healthy compared to the non aggravoltaic crops in the area. Right.
And so it's like this has a huge impact on farming in different regions depending on where you live and I think there's just ah I don't think the public knows about it I don't think a lot of maybe a lot of people in government don't know about this so it's like I do think that there's ah, an education that has to happen more broadly so people know that this is a thing that we should be looking into more. And studying more closely
because Rob crack me if I'm wrong. This is still early days as far as the studies. Yeah. This is this is very early days just just a few years on the road we are with this concept and it it seems that for certain crops. This is a fantastic solution and for other types of crops. It's it's just not feasible. It's it's. It's it's not a 1 size- fitts-all solution. It's a solution that that can benefit certain kinds of agriculture more than others. Great
for that. The the company hunlev which did the did these projects and which we showcased with the Raspberry farm. They also are doing. Ah, projects with strawberries and other kinds of berries especially fruits that are originally coming from forest areas and shade loving fruits. But. They need to have sun once in a while and they don't tend to grow very high and that makes it easy to to just make a canopy of of solar um ah panels above them and and
it. It. It creates an interesting and a quite stable environment for those plants. So in that case, it's a interesting use case. But for other for other types of crop it. It might just not not be feasible to do it. Yeah I was struck by the some of the imagery in the video that was used was clearly you you know you I know Matt you go and get stock video from various sources to be able to fill in imagery and it doesn't necessarily mean.
When you show an image this is a case where this is going to take place or where it makes sense necessarily some of the crops that you showed things like corn. There are going to be complications depending on the size of the crop if something is if we're talking about a farm that is let's say an orchard that is growing apples. And. Oranges that kind of crop. This isn't necessarily going to be like well let's just put solar panels above those trees. This is not going
to be that kind of thing. Right? There's There's like Ron pointed Out. There's certain crops where not just from how much sun they need but also from the size shape and how we cultivate those crops that may not make sense but this is 1 of those things we have to study this we have to do this more and try it out and see what works
and what doesn't work and there's also I have a video coming up. On transparent solar panels that's coming up and that technology could have a huge impact on this kind of thing as well because as as we highlighted in this video which was the the farmer they tried different types of solar panels and discovered this 1 panel blocks too much light. They had to use a different 1 that let a little um. Um, right.
Light through if you have transparent solar panels. You could like fine tune how much light is being allowed through and the in the spectrum of light that's being allowed through so I have a feeling like in the next 1020 years this is going to get refined to a point where it's going to be kind of astounding. And some of these transparent solar panels are already being used on greenhouses. So there's there's a path forward. That's really
interesting here. Right? and I was wondering about that as well is this heading toward more greenhouse agriculture than what would be considered outdoor agriculture. Yeah, it. Um, yeah I don't know I mean there's so many things like I've also talked about ah vertical farming in a different video. It's like there seems like there's a sweet spot of like you have transparent solar panels that are providing the power for vertical farming systems inside of a building and all this kind of stuff so
there's. Different angles that could be taken here in different combinations of things that it's like Lego blocks like but we're at the very early days of what all this means and how we can use these different things together in different ways. The and the company Junlev ah they explained to me when I visited their their farm in Babarrek that they chose for just regular solar panels because those are the cheapest ones to get.
Right. And it's already a little bit more expensive to create those constructions and they can't put as many solar panels in in the same area to to generate that amount of energy that they could if they were just solely solar panels but they just cramming together. 2 2 technologies to see what's what's possible and of course we can optimize it but just with current simple already proven Technology. We can already do a lot of things and it it can be sustainable and it it can be profitable
as Well. And that was a real surprise for me to see that. Yeah, and the the facility that we highlighted in the video you rob actually visited and the thing I find fascinating about that 1 is not only did they choose the panels that were obviously the cheapest but they didn't use motorized like movements and articulating
panels because that 1 that probably also increases the cost makes it more complicated. And the system they have is like the most rudimentary where you could do this and test it and to test the feasibility I thought it was really fascinating. They didn't go that approach because some of the other ones I've come across like this 1 in France over the vineyards they were using the motorized articulated panels to adjust exactly how much sun was being allowed
through at different times of the day and. While that works that increases the cost. And you've mentioned that rob actually visited 1 of these locations so I want to kind of take a step backward now and visit the technical putting together of this video rob how did
you come into this project with Matt was this something Matt that you had a project. You were working on and rob kind of surfaced and said hey I know a little bit about that or I can be a contact How did the 2 of you start working on this collaboratively. Well, what's funny is I had aggravilleticcks on my backlog of ideas to hit at some point but Rob reached out to me and why why't you tell the story rob. Ah, and it's it's ah a series of coincidences. Um, and I'm I'm fifty four years old and 5
years ago I decided to engage in a bachelor's study on environmental sciences. And 1 of the courses I did was on environmentally improved production and as a course assignment I needed to write an essay on something that is related to environmentally improved production. So I chose the subject of agrial takes because i've. Thought it might be an interesting subject to investigate so I did a lot of research I wrote my essay and um I thought about that.
Ah that that that that's something that might actually fit on the channel from from undecied from that. So since I'm a patreon producer from the the first hour already. Um I just reached that hit how do you feel like let's make a video together and well that that Matt
was open to it so I wrote a script. Um. It was twice as large as the actual video it it ah because I think there's a lot lot to tell about this subject and it was very much fun working with Matt to to to to get this subject in in in. Yeah, it was it was It was very long. Twelve minutes and even ah get some fun humor in it which which is not my forte but Matt matt is very good at it and I think he just created the meme just like me. Yeah, yeah, ah.
Yes, I particularly enjoyed finding out that cows hate solar panels That was my favorite part. Ah, and that that that that's how it went that that there was actually somebody who who commented on it in in in the video and he he thought we were serious so I was I responded okay that was a joke. Yeah, yeah. Ah, yeah, yeah. Yeah I may been a little too deadpan in my delivery of that joke.
So that that's how it went. So you went through a first draft and you paired it down to fit into a twelve minute video um and then you actually visit the site. So do you want to talk a little bit about where in europe you live and how what was the ease of your being able to visit these locations. Well, um, you might have guessed that I'm from the netherlands so small country in the northwest of europe and well this this particular farm is just a 1 hour drive from my home so
it was very easy to visit it and I reached out to the farm. Because I was interested for my essay in in having some taking some pictures and getting to to to get some firsthand experience there and they responded. Okay, we get so many questions for visits but in ah in a few weeks time we have a. A slot where we invite a lot of people who are interested.
You can come on that date and then we will give you a tour and that tour was was done just by the farmer but also by the company who owns the solar panels who installed the solar panels and um. Was very easy for me to get there. So I made some footage that also appeared in the video those were the the footage where hun lever was not credited. That was my footage and just just a couple of pictures and and some some short videos
on on both sides of the. Farm and so the the plastic pot and the the solar part so it it was actually quite um, accessible for me because it's just 1 hour drive from where I live. And I'm curious how long has the farm been using this tech you you mentioned that you started doing the the bachelor degree was it 5 years ago you said right? So you had
to write this paper when. Ah, yeah in 2017 I started it. It's it's all in my well I wrote it just this summer and this farm was starting with this project in 2019 so it was actually quite fresh on the radar. To to put it that way. Yeah. And I'm curious about the growing season there here in the us in the news this past summer the past few months there's been some things that have been percolating in the news about
how various cities in the us are effectively being reclassified as far as what. What zone what environmental zone they live in like I live in New York city we are now considered subtropical. So that's ah, that's a pretty big change and that's an impact that's hitting farms across the country as as this video talks about in particular and Matt and you have talked about already in this recording of. The impact in changes in weather patterns
in the netherlands. What kinds of changes have you seen there are you seeing rising temperatures or longer raining seasons is there is there something that's going on there that this kind of technology might help mitigate. Yeah, absolutely. Um, we are in ah in a moderate climate here. Um, we we are close to the atlantic ocean and um. What we are facing here is that we get more hot summers. Um, we get milder winters but in those hot summers. We also
get um more extreme weather more extreme hail more extreme rain. All this kinds of stuff. So for instance, the the damage that this farmer usually has during during summer storms was it in in in in in the past decade was negligible. Ah, ah once in a few years his his ah his plastic canopies were destroyed but now it happens almost every year um and and and those storms and those hails they intensify. um um I don't know if you've seen
it in the dews but we are now also getting floods here and um. It it the point with with global warming is that the air becomes warmer and a warm air can rechain more um water than cold air. So there' is more water in the air and it gets released once in a while. In in in in ways that we haven't seen for a long time so that's really a benefit for this this type of agriculture because they can have a growing season in in in summer and and and
an entire. Ah, crop yield can be destroyed just by 1 storm and that's something that this this typical dissolution helps to prevent. Right. Yeah, the the other thing about it is I love this symbiotic relationship. You get between the crops and the panels because the panels can reduce the temperature by 1 to 2 degrees celsius which can help the crops as the climate shifts and gets warmer and hotter and more humid and then it also helps the panels because the crops actually keep the panels cooler.
Right. Which makes their operations more efficient. So it's like this wonderful little symbiotic relationship that happens between the 2 Yeah, the the farmer told me that beneath the solar panels compared with the plastic canopies and there was a temperatureative difference of seven degrees Celsius So I don't know what that's that's in fahrenheit but that's actually a lot and that was not just. Wow. So. Wow, that's.
Nice for the the workers who had to harvest all those raspberries have to be harvested manually because it's a very delicate fruit. Um, but those plants they suffer um much more heat stress and they have to use. Um, yeah. Way more water under the plastic canopies and those plastic canopies they they need to be there to give shade to protect them from Hill and rain and those kinds of to protect them from the elements. But also those those plastic canopies they are translucent so they
let the light through. And they still get the light and with the solar panels The same thing happens but it's it's a more sturdier canopy for them. Yeah, that's really remarkable. The. That's actually that I say that there's just 1 other aspect of this that always strikes me the more videos I do have of and than this the 1 issue I'm becoming more and more concerned with over time is accessibility to clean,
fresh water and it's becoming. It's. Clear that we are going to have a major water problem in our future and so it's like being able to reduce how much water it takes to maintain our crops is essential and the crops that grow under panels like this. They take less water and that's ah, a key thing that we need to focus on. Yeah, and they are also a very good irrigation drainage so solution because the waterfalls between the rows and not on the plants. So those those raspberries they are not grown
in the soil they are grown in pots. So. Yeah, yep. Right. Ah, the the soil beneath them. It. It is not how do you?? How do you say that? um it it it. It. It doesn't flow away when it rains very hard and those those crops still can. Work because they are actually not on the ground themselves. They are just in pots. There. Right? So it's controlling the water distribution which is beneficial to the plants as well.
That's that's a nice. It's all of these things that are accidental benefits. But once you recognize that they're there and you can. Um, yeah. Take advantage of it. It seems like it all starts to fit together beautifully and that for me raises the question of who is the the mastermind behind saying like what if we did. This is this something that is a governmental research project or is this a university was this started by. Agriculture centers where maybe they were looking from the side of the
farmer where did this all start. Um, as far as I know this is a commercial Enterprise So Hun Leif. Ah and the company that we showcased. Is is a a company which is already doing a lot on sustainable energy a sustainable ah technology and energy production
and they found it interesting to see if this will also work. In an agricultural setting and they have engaged with the wining a University Um, That's a well-renknown of a well-renowned University on Agriculture and they they partnered together with the wagoning a university To. To have this studied scientifically as well. But it's It's just a commercial enterprise trying to to do this and see if they can make profit on the long term. So that there there
was no government incentive here. It was not sponsored by any University It was just normal business.. There's this potential. Right. It's it's it's energy companies recognizing renewables like wind and solar. There's a potential here and they can make more money and so it's it's 1 of those aspects where this is where the free market comes in handy because it's like it's that extra little incentive like as soon as dollar signs are seen. Right.
Yeah. Um, right? and this goes back to something you've brought up in other videos Matt that there sometimes could be more positive pressure to making this kind of change when it's not. Companies will jump in that direction. Coming from the environmentalist side of it. The environmentalist there's a certain amount of white noise that comes with that where people tune it out because oh those tree huggers but when it's an energy company and this and this ties in with something else. You brought
up in your video. Yeah. Yes, yes. Question of ownership of the electronic of the electricity produced and of the panels themselves because of the layers of subsidies around the farms and if they have to be considered a structure and that would then undermine
the subsidy farmers aren't going to won that. Want that unless the law is changed So In this case, it's the panels are owned by an electric company and the electricity is owned by them and they would be paying the farmers for how would the farmers benefit from this financially if at all. You and take that rob. Yeah in in this particular case it was very easy because the farmer was able to sustain his business as usual, um, with less troubles in maintaining the structures he needs for
the the growth of of his product. Produce um, so the farmer benefits from having these structures um his his employees benefit from it. They they like to work there more than they like to work under the plastic canopies because it can get very hot there. Um. Um, yeah. And um, that that was 1 of the the key points. Ah if if if your your your produce is less than than than before Why would you even bother thinking about it. And and that's something that the fra institute also investigated and
they said that okay farmers when they are owning the solar panels. Um, they they can have 2 kinds of products on the same land and they can have energy and they can have crops. And if for instance, the crop yield is is not as good but they can compensate with the energy yield and and vice versa. But it's not 1 hundred percent plus 1 hundred
percent. So it it usually boils down to 1 80 or 1 eighty six percent of what. But could be done instead of just using the land just for crops or just for for solar um and what I found in my study is also that not all farming is. Economically viable anymore these days And for instance, some farmers in the Uk. They have been said they say okay we have this land. It doesn't make sense to to grow anything here. Let's put solar panels on it
and. Ah, okay, we also have some chicken and some Geese let's let's let them move around there and and then we have dual use of of this land. But that's not what we call agrivoltaics. It's it's just doing something extra with it but they just turned from. Right. Agriculture to becoming an energy farmer and that's something entirely different. Um, and and there's also it's not just utilities that are doing this like in the us 1 of the largest aggravoltic tests centers was ah I
think it's called what is it called? Ah Jack's solar garden it's in Boulder colorado. Um, right right. And it's a community solar project. So it's not owned by a major lecture company. It's a community community solar. So the farmer themselves is actually benefiting from the electricity generation in addition to the benefits. They're getting from what they're growing. So there's many ways that you can handle these projects. Um, right.
Yeah, the the frown of Institute also says when these have these projects are are most fruitful and successful if the energy which is generated can can be used locally. Which is the other interesting part. And instead of just pushing you back to back to the grid. So those synergistic effects. Um, ah these are the things that um make it interesting to to to explore these kinds of options. Yes, and when it comes to energy production. You want it to be especially fruitful on a
raspberry farm see what I did there? Yes, this it's I think 1 of the the key things that stands out for me is is this is. Ah, see what you did there. I yeah. Something that could be done globally. This is this is a practice and when you talk about agrivoltaics it it occurred to me that the key you you pointed out the rob the the uk example of change of land use does not make it agricultal voltaic. It's when it's. Enmeshed with the actual agriculture process that seems
to me like this could be done in a lot of different environments globally. But it's going to have a lot of different types of bureaucratic and governmental regulation to jump through and it's not going to be an apples to apples comparison from. somewhere in iowa to somewhere in europe it's going to be each of those cases is going to be very unique and I'm wondering. Are there some crops that stand out as raspberry the raspberry production.
Ah the the the Bush fruit um, that is. Referenced in that like strawberries where you mentioned things that would have grown naturally in wooded areas would benefit from this is there another crop that just stands out as like this is clearly a crop that might benefit from this like how would this. Interact with maybe rice production is a rice patty something where you could put these kinds of panels around a rice padty and have a similar impact
or does there happen to be a crop that it just oh this could never ever work. We already mentioned things like tree orchards and stuff like that. That's that's a difficult question but I've been thinking about that as well and there's 1 particular example which is very appealing to me I don't know if you know anything about cotton production cotton is extremely waterhungry. Um.
And I don't know if you've ever seen pictures of the lake aral somewhere in I think it was somewhere on the on the asian continent I think it was something between russia and china something like that. And not sure exactly where it where it is but that lake has been drained off all water in just a few decades just for cotton production and now it's it's it's ah a mere shimmer of what it was before if we were able to to do cotton production.
Ah, with fifty percent less water than that entire ecosystem could recover from what it has become so that was just 1 thing that I thought might be interesting so I just don't know enough about about those plans to. Um, yeah. To make that judgment. Um I'm I'm not a biologist. So but that that was 1 thing that I thought ah that might be actually quite interesting and there was some someone in in the comments on the on the video from Nigeria who said I live in an area where water is a problem
we have. We have lots of land. We we need to feed a lot of mouth and this would be an ideal solution for our growing economy and and they don't have existing grids that they need to adapt to they can just build the grids around these decentralized solutions and I think. Um, yeah. For those kinds of use cases and and and those kinds of areas that would be an an amazing opportunity. Yeah massive and I don't think it's It's a solution for every ah region or
every crop I think I think that's that's nonsense. Massive. Um, yeah. Yeah, and I think the I think another benefit from this is you're talking about as you mentioned before these are crops that require hands
on they require there to be. Farm workers that are going in and harvesting these things because in some cases the delicacy of of the the crop itself the the bushes that are growing these and so it occurs to me that if you manage to make a highly productive farm that would create more jobs for people who would need to be the workers going in and working with.
You know, harvesting those things. It seems to me like that's another benefit that could potentially come out of this a less productive Farm doesn't need to hire as many farm hands and somebody who's growing close to the maximum yield that they can get out of something is going to need more people So That's another thing I think. Consider Well this conversation has been Terrific. Rob Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, thank you Rob And thank you for all
the work on the video. Ah, it. It was great. Fun to do it and I learned a lot of it by doing it so and and there's 1 thing that I would like to add I've never had the opportunity to actually. Present a topic that I'm interested in or anthusiastic about to um, a half a million people. So I'm um, I'm um, I'm amazed by that so that that's also something that I find here? amazing. In this in this cooperation that we did so it was a lot of fun and I learned a lot of yep.
Yes, it was. Um, what are the next steps for you Rob when are you finishing up your degree. I hope to finish it. Um, the end of next year so I'm almost at the end of my of my tour but it's all done in my spare time because I'm just a I'm working in in. Um. And I t consultancy for about 35 years so and it's it's something. Yeah except it. Absolutely absolutely. And yeah and I hope I can finish it on on time It's always challenging. So it's really a labor of love. It's a it's
a it's a passion project for you. That's fantastic. Ah, yeah, yes, it does. But thank you again for joining us. This has been fantastic. So our listeners should let us know what they think Oh absolutely our listeners should let us know what they think and. Yes, life gets in the way a lot of times. Yep. You're welcome and and thank you Thank you for having me. Like rob pointed out people in different regions have been reaching out and saying this would
make sense here I'm very curious are any of our listeners in that group. Do you think that there's a place where this could fit into your local agricultural community. Let us know you can find the contact information in the podcast description or if you're on youtube you can just scroll down below the video and leave a comment there. Don't forget. We do have a way to directly support the podcast you can visit still tbd dot fm you'll see
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so hard on solar Thanks so much for listening everybody. We'll talk to you next time.