Welcome back to the staff my operating table podcast with Dr. Phillip Aveda. I'm your host, Jack Heald. And today, Dr. O, I want you to talk about how to eat metabolically healthy all into five different popular diets. You've listed here, five different diets that have certainly grown in popularity during my lifetime. The carnivore diet, the keto diet, the Mediterranean diet, veganism. I don't know if that's, I guess that's considered a popular diet. And Kali, what was the last one? Oh, Atkins, or no, that one did? Well, we'll we'll we'll dig through it. So if you could guide us through how to eat metabolically healthy on these five different diets, you want to start with, let's say, let's start with the least extreme, which I would guess would be the Mediterranean diet.
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Sure thing, Jack. And by having this section of the book, the you know, message that I really wanted to get across to people is that there isn't one right diet for everyone. And what might work for me, you know, might not be the best thing for you. And even over time, you know, for any individual person, the right diet at that time might change.
Jack Heald:But the good word,
Dr. Philip Ovadia:yeah, the key principle, it's important for people to understand is that whatever you are eating, you know, your way of eating, which is a term that actually prefer, you know, over diet, your way of eating needs to be geared towards making you metabolically healthy and keeping you metabolically healthy. And I think that is a little bit of the mistake that's been made is that we tend to get into these dietary camps, you know, we tend to people are, you know, promoting the diets that work for them. And they lose, focus on what's important, namely, being healthy, being metabolically healthy. So I think with each of these diets that we're going to talk about in particular, there are ways for it to be metabolically healthy. And there are things that can be done that will make it not metabolically healthy. And so that is kind of the overarching discussion that I want people to think about. So we can start with a Mediterranean diet, I would say the meta training and diet is, you know, has been the most studied in the scientific literature, and has the most sort of positive results with it. But one of the things, you know, that people need to keep in mind about the Mediterranean diet is, when you actually go to the areas that, you know, the Mediterranean diet is based on, they actually have wide variety in their diet, the Mediterranean area is a very large area. And, you know, the Mediterranean diet was sort of a popularized and commercialized version of the way that people ate in certain areas, you know, where they found that people were living longer and healthier. And I think the Mediterranean diet, you know, has many positives to it. Its reliance on you know, high quality fats,
Jack Heald:such as olive oil is a plus. However,
Dr. Philip Ovadia:and this is going to be a good demonstration of what can go wrong with these diets. When you look at the olive oil that's largely consumed in the United States, versus the olive oil that's consumed in Mediterranean countries, there might be a significant difference, much of Yeah, much of the olive oil that we get here in the United States. And this is probably true, you know, in other areas of the world as well. But much of the olive oil is not pure olive oil. Olive oil is expensive to make. And it's going to be expensive to you know, ship around the world because the olives only grow in, you know, a couple of regions of the world that have good conditions for growing olives. And so what food companies often do is that they will cut the olive oil with cheaper vegetable and seed oils. And unfortunately, the way that the you know, food labeling laws are here in United States, a bottle that says pure olive oil may very well not be pure olive oil. And so you have to be very careful about your source. Have your olive oil. And that's probably my biggest caution around the Mediterranean diet is that if you are using, you know, poor quality olive oil, it's going to end up not being a metabolically healthy diet for you. The other caution that I tend to give around the Mediterranean diet is that I think it unnecessarily restricts red meat and you know, fattier cuts of meat, it focuses on lean proteins. And again, this is based on the ill conceived notion that we've talked about in previous episodes, that saturated fat is bad for us. And so, you know, when when they looked at the Mediterranean diet, and again, this also gets into the history of how the Mediterranean diet became popularized. It was thought that, you know, they were eating lower amounts of saturated fat, lower amounts of red meat. And it turns out that that's probably not the case for most of the Mediterranean countries. So the Mediterranean diet, as popularized, I think, you know, unnecessarily restricts red meat and saturated fat in the diet. But overall, you know, the Mediterranean diet, like I said, you know, it emphasizes seafood, which I think is a positive. And it certainly, you know, eliminates processed food, for the most part. Now, this is another caution, we're going to talk around other diets is that when the food companies get ahold of these diets, and they want to capitalize on the trends of these diets, they tend to make processed versions, you know, versions of their processed food that somehow fit within these are claimed to fit within these diets. And they'll put on the label, you know, great for the Mediterranean diet, but it's really just, you know, repackaged processed food. So always be careful, you know, when you're shopping in the supermarket, and something says on it, you know, good for the Mediterranean diet or good for the keto diet, you know, you still have to look at that ingredient list and make sure that you're just not getting re processed junk food.
Jack Heald:All right. Now, I, maybe we could get a sponsor for this particular episode, do you have an olive oil that you trust?
Dr. Philip Ovadia:So you know, I don't actually use olive oil all that much. Because of that, I'll be honest, there are some brands that I have heard that I, you know, trusted sources that I listened to say are good quality olive oils. There's one in particular, it's called Villa capelli, that you can order online, it comes from Italy, directly. The Costco brand in the United States, the Kirkland brand from Costco is also supposed to be high quality. And there's actually a website that A, I believe it's University of California, I want to say University of California, San Diego, like each year puts out a report on olive oils that are sold in the United States and how pure they are. But if you search, you know, pure olive oil, people can find those, those sites that, you know, kind of test these olive oils, and determine if they are actually what they say they are very good.
Jack Heald:It's fascinating that the Kirkland brand is considered one of the good ones given the nature of Costcos business. So I think that would be worth exploring. On our own, not as part of the show, but yeah, definitely worthwhile. All right. So we've got is that all of the Mediterranean diet?
Dr. Philip Ovadia:I think that covers the Mediterranean diet pretty well. Alright, let's
Jack Heald:talk about gluten free, which is definitely exploded in popularity over the last, I don't know, 1015 years.
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Right. You know, so as people will recall, from previous episodes, gluten free was sort of my introduction into the whole, you know, getting healthy and learning about metabolic health. And so it is, I guess, you would say near and dear to my heart. The problem again, you know, the benefit of gluten free is that it is going to usually end up being a lower carbohydrate diet, because if you can't substitute for all the foods that you know, contain gluten in them and you eliminate those foods, you're going to naturally have eliminated a lot of the highly processed carbohydrates from your diet. And I think that is a good sort of entree into that. The problem again, as we said, is that the food industry has capitalized On the gluten free popularity, and much of the food that's labeled as gluten free, all of these gluten free substitutes that are out there are probably not any better for us than, you know what they're trying to substitute for, you know, these, the almond flowers and the coconut flowers and the flower substitutes that are used. And the sugar substitutes that are oftentimes used in these products may not be any better than, you know what we started with. So I think if you use the gluten free diet as a way to lower your carbohydrate intake, it is a positive. I think if you end up just finding, you know, the gluten free substitutes for everything that you know, and continue to eat basically all the same high carbohydrate foods, you're probably not going to see any real benefit from it. Unless you are, you know, truly part of the relatively small part of the population that does have, you know, a true gluten sensitivity, celiac disease.
Jack Heald:I was fascinated when I though 16 years ago, I had a serious health problem that presented with extreme gastric reflux, you know, I was I was in pain 24/7 With with acid reflux. And my the physician who finally figured out what was going on with me, one of the things he told me to do is stop eating bread. And you know, every time I would get this acid reflux, my thought was, oh, I need something to soak up the the acid, what would be good to soak up the acid Oh, bread, so I'd stick it in there anyway, long story short. As it turned out, I did stopped eating wheat products. And that problem went away. It was it was fascinating to me. And I tried to explain to a family member what was going on, and they were saying, but you're not gluten intolerant? And I Well, yes, you're right. I don't have a gluten intolerance problem. But I discovered that when I stopped eating wheat products, I just felt better. I it was it was that simple. I just I quit it. So the I think there's some middle ground between people who are truly gluten intolerant. And people who don't have any problem with it at all. And I think that's where I fell in frankly, my guess is most people fall there. Most people fall in that area where, although they don't technically have a gluten tolerance problem. They're better off nidd
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Yeah, I would probably, I would agree with that. And again, if you people remember from previous episodes, you know, me telling my story and my wife story, that was our experience as well. And I think retrospectively, what I've come to realize is that gluten intolerance is oftentimes a sign of underlying gut inflammation, leaky gut, is, you know, the popular term for it. And so when the gut is inflamed, when your intestines or your stomach are inflamed, not, you know, producing acid correctly as they should, as it should. It allows these proteins, you know, that are in the gluten foods or, you know, part of the gluten molecule to get across sort of the gut barrier into the bloodstream and cause the reactions that many people have. What I have experienced, what many of my clients experience is when you heal the gut inflammation with, you know, a clean, whole real food diet, you know, the carnivore diet is one example. For instance, you can get the gut to heal, and then oftentimes people can, you know, tolerate those foods. So, you know, on the rare instances that I might have a piece of bread now, you know, when I'm out to dinner, and it's not gluten free bread, and I tolerate it just fine. So I think you are correct. I think many people are sensitive to gluten because they have underlying poor metabolic health and the gut inflammation that goes with that. And you can eliminate the gluten and certainly minimize that. Or I think a better approach is to heal the gut. Get rid of the gut inflammation, and then the gluten is no longer problematic.
Jack Heald:Glad to hear a doctor confirmed my sister Alright, let's look at a couple of the, let's talk about you group all of these under a single category, keto, Paleo Atkins and other low carb diets.
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Yeah, so and I think that, you know, there are many versions of low carb diets these days. And, you know, obviously, the main characteristic that they all share is lowering the amount of carbohydrates. And they, they do it in slightly different ways. They might have different limits, or they focus on different types of carbohydrate injuries. But I think ultimately, for people who are not metabolically healthy, there is no getting around the fact that you need to reduce your carbohydrate intake. When the body is not metabolically healthy, it is not going to be able to properly handle a carbohydrate load. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that carbohydrates are the thing that made the body metabolically unhealthy, although I think they do certainly play a part in that process. And it doesn't mean that you know, you have to 100% Eliminate carbohydrates. For some people, you just have to get it below a certain level, that's going to vary a little bit, depending on your activity, you know, how much muscle you have your age, you know, there are a bunch of different factors that go into it. But I think, you know, in the end for anyone that is metabolically unhealthy, the more you reduce your carbohydrate intake, the better. And then, you know, going back to the sort of overarching principle about eating real whole food, I think any carbohydrates that you can consume should be from real whole food, again, the more that you eliminate the processed food, the better. And once again, my caution around low carbohydrate, Atkins, you know, paleo, all of these brands, keto, certainly, all of these, what have now become brands of a sort, you know, have been hijacked by our food industry. And you can find all sorts of junk food that's labeled keto, Paleo Atkins, low carb, and is purported to be healthy for us, but in the end, it's not going to be. So my summary on kind of all of the low carb diets is, I think, if it's done based on whole real food, they are very helpful for improving metabolic health for reversing metabolic disease. And, obviously, you know, that was a big part of my journey to metabolic health. And it's usually what I recommend as a starting point for my clients who are not metabolically healthy.
Jack Heald:Excellent, good. Good to hear that. Um,
Dr. Philip Ovadia:I would say, you know, one other caution I like to add around the low carb diets is, you know, and this is probably most most pertains to the keto diet is the adding a lot of extra fat. You know, so many people who do the keto diet, and I did this myself, when I was starting the keto diet. As your body is shifting from being reliant on carbohydrates and sugar for its energy source, towards using fat for its ener, G source, it can be helpful to add extra fat to your diet, you know, to ease that transition. And this turns into things like the bulletproof coffees, or you know, putting coconut oil, putting extra butter on it, three thing. But I think after a period of time when your body adjusts to that, if you have extra body fat to burn, the less extra fat that you are consuming in your diet, the more of your own body fat, you know that your body is going to be able to burn. So I think it's useful during the transition period, you know, to kind of get your body used to burning fat. But then I think if you're you know if one of your focuses is weight loss, if you have extra body fat you're trying to get rid of if you can dial back the amount of extra fat that you're taking in, you're going to have more success, you know, kind of on the weight loss, fat loss part of a low carbohydrate diet that is
Jack Heald:very helpful for me personally. I I remember when I went keto for a while my partner at the time had to go keto for her health. She didn't have an option And I was, you know, I was like, no, no, I'll do it with you. Why not? And, you know, we we started every morning with Bulletproof Coffee and we ate bacon by the truckload. And you know, we we cut carbs out of our life pretty much. And I certainly felt good. But my anticipation was that I was going to lose weight. And that did not have that. And I understand why, hey, I've got a question related to the keto diet that I've never actually asked a physician might be because I've never met a physician who's actually as knowledgeable about this as you are. So is I've heard of, of this, this condition that some people refer to as the Keto flu, where your body is you have flu like symptoms, as you're converting from Bertie glycogen to burning ketones. Do you know anything about that? Can you talk about that at all?
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Yes, you know, that is something that is oftentimes, you know, experienced by people as they transition to the keto diet. What I tell my clients, what I tell my patients is that it is usually temporary, you know, two to three weeks at the most for many people, it's even less than that. And I think it is mostly seem to be related to electrolytes. And I think we talked about this in one of the recent episodes, that when you cut down on your intake of carbohydrates, part of the hormonal response of your body is to, you know, your insulin level drops. And that causes your kidneys to start to flush out more electrolytes and with it more water. So what I have found, minimizes those symptoms for many people, sometimes they can be avoided altogether, are taking an adequate electrolytes, good high quality sea salt, magnesium seemed to be the keys there. And then just making sure that you're staying adequately hydrated, and also eating enough fat, you know, like we talked about you got, you know, if you're taking away your body's primary energy source, the carbohydrates that you were eating, you got to give it something else to burn until the insulin level gets low enough that you can start to burn your fat stores. I think eating adequate amounts of fat and correctly managing your electric lights largely can minimize or eliminate the Keto flu symptoms that people experience.
Jack Heald:And what's the normal amount of time to convert? I know this information is available online in a lot of different places, but as a physician, what is your what's your experience about the normal amount of time necessary to convert from burning glycogen to burning ketones? And what's the the maximum amount of carbs that you can reasonably expect to consume and still be able to make that conversion?
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Yeah, so I think for most people, probably aiming for under 50 grams of carbs a day is a good target. Again, it's going to vary somewhat, you know, if you're more muscular, if you're more active, you probably can tolerate a higher level, but I generally, you know, have my patients when they are first getting on a ketogenic diet, aim for less than 50 grams of carbs a day. And, you know, important to mention is that I really don't pay attention to the net carbs, you know, I really look at all carbs. I think, again, that's sort of a, you know, that's a theory that got it kind of pushed out by the food industry to allow them to, you know, make foods that weren't so healthy, you know, seem healthier, with this whole net carb, you know, not counting the fiber. I just haven't seen very good evidence that that is really a good strategy to us. I would rather just see you pay attention to carbs overall and reduce your carbohydrate intake than trying to, you know, not count certain types of carbs. So, Lunder 50, is my general recommendation. You know, like I said, some people might be able to get away with a little higher. And then I generally find that it takes somewhere between four to seven days for people to start producing adequate amounts of ketones, you know, that they can be considered sort of ketogenic, and they're now primarily using ketones instead of sugar. One other concept that I always you know, try and get through to people is realize that our bodies are always actually using both, you know, we always are using glucose of some sort, and we're always producing some amount of ketones, it's just a matter of the balance between the two. And when you get your ketone level high enough, when you're burning enough fat, you're then less reliant on on the glucose. And, you know, one of the tools that I oftentimes use with my patients is a continuous glucose monitor. You know, besides, in some patients actually measuring ketones, you can get a finger stick test that you can do at home for that. But you know, what I oftentimes see is when patients are truly, you know, ketogenic when they have that high level of ketones, their blood glucose levels will get pretty low. I mean, they don't go to zero, but they get down to the 50s and 60s, as normal. So normal, I
Jack Heald:should back up, that's probably the wrong the wrong word. Well,
Dr. Philip Ovadia:what's, you know, average? Yeah, average normal, I would say is considered somewhere in the 70, to, you know, 90 range 70 to 100. The most people are pretty fearful of having their levels down in the 50s. And 60s, you know, most physicians would tell you, if your glucose is 50, that's like an emergency and you're going to be passing out and having all sorts of symptoms. And again, the reality is, is when we are ketogenic when we're producing ketones, you know, I many times have had glucose levels in the 50s, even down into the 40s. And I feel just fine. So this whole fear of hypoglycemia, you know, low blood sugar is based on, you know, people who are not ketogenic certainly, if you're a type one diabetic, you know, you don't want to have a glucose that low. But and and, you know, the average person walking around who is not ketogenic not able to start using their fat for energy, because their insulin level is so high, then, yes, having a glucose that low is certainly going to be dangerous. So that's another nuance that starts to come in, you know, because we are so, you know, in this talks to our society, because it is so unusual for people to be metabolically healthy for people to be, you know, ketogenic a large portion of the time. Our health system is truly, you know, our physicians are not used to dealing with these people. So the things that are felt to be abnormal for people who are not, you know, ketogenic people who are running, you know, off of the standard American diet, those things may not be the same, you know, cautions that we need to have for people who are metabolically healthy and running off a ketogenic metabolism.
Jack Heald:Yeah, kind of just the the general state of things if you're metabolically healthy. Your basis basically subject to a different set of rules, because by nature, you are in better shape. Okay, I want to ask one more question about the ketogenic diet before we move on. I have an I want your expert opinion, not only as a physician, but as somebody who actually does this. I've heard that the ketogenic diet is not a good long term diet, that it's something you should you know, do it for a while that did get off edited baby get back on, but don't don't make it a lifestyle. What is your expert opinion?
Dr. Philip Ovadia:My expert opinion, quite honestly, is that is bunk. Just to you know, be you know, pretty outright about it. So, there were a couple of things reasons I say that. The first reason I say that is because probably for the vast majority of our existence as humans. We were in a ketogenic state, most of the time, remember that humans did not have access to, you know, carbohydrates in large amounts, or horse 99.9% of our evolutionary existence. We work ketogenic, the vast majority of the time, we went through large periods of fasting, which we always you know, we always become ketogenic when we fast for long enough. And, you know, we just had a low carbohydrate diet, we were eating primarily animal products. We had a little bit of, you know, fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, fresh plant matter, I should say, you know, at certain times of the year, but for the most part, you were ketogenic most of the time, you know, as a human prior to, let's say, about 10,000 years ago when we, you know, really got domesticated agriculture. So that's
Jack Heald:that thing that's so obvious now that you say it that way. It's like, da
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Yeah, that that's the first thing that tells me that the ketogenic diet is fine, long term. The other thing is just the experience of, you know, myself, the patients, I work with the large community of people that have now done this. The one sort of, you know, the two areas that I think maybe there is some benefit to not being ketogenic all the time. For certain performance athletes, high level performance athletes, it may not be beneficial to be ketogenic all of the time, you know, they might need to cycle through, especially, you know, around events and stuff like that. But again, that's not the vast majority of of us, right. The other situation, where it seems that may be cycling out of ketosis may have some benefit is, you know, women who are still menstruating. There has been some suggestion that, you know, coming out of ketosis or increasing your carbohydrate intake around the time of their cycles, might, you know, have some benefits? Again, not great scientific evidence on that. But, you know, again, we don't have great scientific evidence on a lot of our dietary advice. And I think it's, I think it's a personalized thing. Now, do I think it's bad to cycle in and out of ketosis? You know, if you're doing it with clean carbohydrates and non processed food? No, I don't think it's necessarily bad. So if you feel better doing that, then I certainly don't have an objection to it. But, you know, this, this concept that's been put out there that if you stay ketogenic all the time, it's going to be somehow, you know, deleterious to your health, that I think is really just propaganda that's put out there by the forces in our society that don't want people, you know, pursuing ketogenic diets. Really, yeah.
Jack Heald:If we just go back to what did we eat for 99.99% of our history as a species? That it's probably okay to continue eating that way.
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Okay, that's a pretty good bet.
Jack Heald:Oh, my Lord. All right, let's move on to one that we talked about in detail. previous episodes, and that's the carnivore diet. So I don't spend a lot of time on that. But let's talk about the pros and the cons of the carnivore diet. Yeah, so maybe the pros of the face.
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Yeah, so as you know, as you said, We'd discussed it in previous episode, pretty much in detail, people certainly know that it is my sort of personal diet that I largely stick to. And I've talked about the reasons but I think the carnivore diet is probably most consistent with our and set our ancestry and our evolution. I think that the carnivore diet provides us with all the nutrients that you need, you know, all of the essential nutrients that we need, all of the essential amino acids that we need, all of the, you know, vitamins that we need, can all be obtained from a carnivore diet. And so I think it is probably the closest we're going to get to, you know, a human diet, as that's what we evolved on the falls of the carnivore diet, honestly, I think are few and far between the most of the arguments that are put out, you know, against a carnivore diet relate to that eating high amounts of animal products, and especially the saturated fat that they consume, are going to be damaging to your heart. And that is simply not supported by the scientific evidence that they're going to be damaging to the kidneys, again, not supported by the scientific evidence, and that there might be some sort of nutritional deficiency, you know, some sort of vitamin or something that we can't get only from animal products. Vitamin C is the one that is put forth, most commonly and again, it's been thoroughly shown not to be true. What people don't another historic fact that has gotten lost is that the original treatment for scurvy which is vitamin C deficiency, is to eat fresh meat. The problem that you know, the reason that discouraged meat, fresh meat Yeah, the reason that vitamin C deficiency got associated with meat, you know scurvy got associated with me, is that when we preserve meats, they you know, Lou, they don't have enough vitamin C and I'm And so the the sailors, you know that were going crossing the, you know, oceans back in the day, and they only had preserved meats, and they got scurvy. And then you know, they got treated with fresh fruit, which also has vitamin C in it, I'm not saying it doesn't, it's just that it's really not necessary, you can get adequate amounts of vitamin C from just muscle meat, certainly you can get plentiful amounts of it from organ meats, fish row, eggs, all of these things contain adequate vitamin C. So, you know, in the end, like I said, I don't tell people that the carnivore diet is, you know, necessary for everyone. But I think it is a great tool for improving your metabolic health. It is the one that I have stuck with now for over two years. And certainly, you know, with it, encourage everyone to go back and listen to our previous episode focused on the carnivore diet.
Jack Heald:I want to underline that that this is not merely theory for you this is this is the actual diet that you choose to live on, and have done so for well over two years now. So you've got both experience as well as the medical expertise. All right, here's the one I'm really looking forward to. How to Eat metabolically healthy on vegetarian and vegan diets. Let's talk about that one, because I suspect this is a hot button for a lot of people.
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Yes, it definitely is. And obviously, it's, you know, it would seem on the surface to be the exact opposite of the carnivore diet. But I want people to realize that the vegan diets and the vegan diet and the carnivore diet are actually closer together than I think either one is to the standard American diet, you know, they both, if they're done correctly, are going to be eliminating processed foods. They're both focused on eating whole real foods. The biggest caution I give people around the vegan diet, again, similar to what we talked about before, is a lot of the plant that a lot of the foods that are labeled vegan, plant based, are highly processed foods. All of these take meat substitutes, are incredibly highly, they're some of the most processed foods that are you know, you can get, but they're labeled healthy, you know, because they're plant based. And I think that that is a fallacy. I think any food that contains you know, large amounts of vegetable and seed oils, and highly processed ingredients, such as plant based meats, are not going to support your health. I understand that, you know, many people want to pursue, you know, these vegan or plant based diets for ethical reasons. And I respect that. And I think it can be done, I just tell them that it is a lot more difficult to do than the carnivore diet, for instance. And the reason that is, and again, I don't think anyone can debate this, you know, I interact with vegan physicians, and they agree with what I'm going to say is that there are certain essential nutrients that you cannot get solely from plants. You know, vitamin B 12 is a big one of those. Iron is another challenge to get adequately from plants. And some of the fat soluble vitamins, you know, are difficult to get an adequate amount for quote,
Jack Heald:A, D and E is that right? Correct.
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Ad E and then vitamin K, especially vitamin K two, which is you know, essential. So it can be done, it requires taking supplements. And so if that's something you're okay with doing, you know, then it certainly can be done it just in the end, it takes a lot more work than being carnivore. I did go through a period I went through about a four month period where I you know, tried being vegan, and I just found it too difficult to do. My friends who are vegan that I interact with, you know, what I noticed is that they are constantly eating throughout the day. They're, they're grazing. And in fact when you look in nature, at you know, animals that are herbivores that only eat plant products, they largely spend their entire day eating the cow out in the field, you know, spends all day just eating grass in order to get enough nutrients, you know nutrition from the from the plants, the nutrients implants are not very dense, you know, as they are in, in animal products. So, again, it's, it's not impossible to do, it's just very hard to do. But I do, you know, support people, I have patients who are vegan, and vegetarian, I always say that, you know, if you can incorporate a little bit of animal product, you know, things like eggs, which are very nutritionally dense, if you're open to incorporating seafood, you know, the pescatarian kind of diet that I think is also going to get you, you're going to be able to fill in a lot of those nutrient deficiencies that come from the pure vegan diet. And then if you are going to be vegan, you know, avoid the processed food, vegan junk food is no better than, you know, non vegan junk food.
Jack Heald:Yeah, I've been fascinated by that particular phenomena, and I can go buy a bag of Doritos. And they're vegan.
Dr. Philip Ovadia:Yeah, and actually, the, the original flavored, you know, Oreos are vegan as well. And I hope that no one is out there thinking that, you know, Oreos are going to benefit their health.
Jack Heald:Alright, so the bottom line for vegan is, really, it just falls under the same set of guidelines that you get for everybody real whole food, exactly, you can tell what the ingredients are by looking at it, you don't need to read it a gradient list. So and be aware that as a vegan, that there are essential nutrients that you will not get from plants, you're going to have to supplement. Alright,
Dr. Philip Ovadia:so I think to summarize, you know, again, I am in favor of any diet that is going to allow you to be metabolically healthy, and maintain your metabolic health. And I think that should be the marker, you know, that we are judging what we eat against?
Jack Heald:Can I ask you a question that may or may not be appropriate for this conversation? But it's it, it's related? Do you have an insight into why so many vegans really, truly committed vegans struggle with obviously poor health? Does it just go back to the lack of of the essential nutrients,
Dr. Philip Ovadia:I think, you know, the lack of essential nutrients, and it is very hard to get what I consider to be enough protein, again, with a purely, you know, plant based diet. And I think those are the two, the two areas of struggle. The other thing that I often, you know, caution people about is that, you know, we talked earlier about gut inflammation, right, it seems that plant products in particular, in certain people, you know, are a cause of that gut inflammation. So, I think a lot of people who are eating only plant you know, who are vegan or plant based, suffer from this gut inflammation and therefore are not properly absorbing the nutrients that are in the food that they're eating. And ultimately, those nutritional deficiencies are what lead to a lot of the health problems that many vegans end up facing after a long time on the diet.
Jack Heald:Okay, well, you have definitely answered my questions about the vegetarian veganism issues. And I'm frankly, I'm pleased to hear that it is possible. Also not surprised to hear that it's difficult to be metabolically healthy with a vegan diet. That was a that was a heck of a big a big bite of information to try to chew up and swallow today. So I think that's sufficient for one day. Anything to wrap it up, or shall we just call it?
Dr. Philip Ovadia:I think it's a great episode. Jack. Look forward to the next one.
Jack Heald:All right. Well, this is the staff my operating table podcast with Dr. Philip oveja reminder that you can follow Dr. OBEDIA on Twitter. At I fix hearts. He is a worthwhile follower. And if after listening to some of these episodes, you're thinking to yourself, I need somebody like Dr. Aveda to help me with my health. Good news. He's got a telemedicine practice. You can contact his website at OBEDIA heart health.com And get hooked up with his office and maybe get Dr o to help you get yourself back in shape. Or Dr. Philip Sylvania. I'm Jack Heald. We'll talk to you next time