Rebels Talk (Part 13) | Mandalorian Stormtroopers and Dark Trooper Lore | Thrawns Secret Project

Time to abandon ship. Oh no! Here we go. Can I persuade you to join us for a drink? It's a tradition. Here, here. Jar Jar, homie, my main man, quickly. Before the separatists attack, get into the escape pod. Hey, this is escape. Then where's the pod? This is escape. Welcome back to Star Wars Escape Pod. I'm your host, Josh, and we have another episode of Rebels Talk for you today.

And the beauty of Rebels Talk is that we go way back, starting from the beginning and going all the way through the series, leading you to Ahsoka. And we're doing it in clusters of three or four Rebels episodes at a time. So make sure you check the description of every podcast episode before you start the play button. And that way you know which episodes of Rebels that we've seen today that we're talking about.

So let's get into Rebels Talk, part 13, the next set of episodes, episodes 7, 8, 9, and 10 with your co-host, Blake. Let's do it. Another happy landing. Oh man, here's the song. I've seen those things so many times. Welcome back, sir. Hey, dude. You're back as always. I don't know if there's some tech stuff going on, but you're really echoey, and I can't hear any music or anything. Oh yeah, yeah, you're super echoey too. Let me just try something here. Okay, hold on. How's that?

Oh, that's way better. Now I can actually hear what's happening. Oh, there we go. There we go. You know what? It's so... It's an open output or something. It's early in the morning, and I didn't even plug it in. Yeah, that would do it. Oh my goodness. It's still recorded though? Oh yeah, oh yeah. Everyone still heard you over the loudspeakers, I think. Okay. I think. I like the demo version where you're sending it into the studio, like, hey, you should fund us. It sounds like super tinny.

Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty rough. And plus you're tired because it's early in the morning, so on top of that, just no sound except for... Yeah, so we're going to do a podcast today. Oh yeah. So welcome back to Star Wars Escape Pod, and this is us at five in the morning. Thankfully it's not that early. No. Yeah. All right. Well, we do have a variety of things to get into today, the next set of Season 3 episodes.

But before we do, is there anything real quick, any of these that really stuck out to you while I pull up the webpage for all these Rebels Recons? One that really stood out to me. Well, I think there's a little bit to each episode, but I would say across these four, it's probably similar to the last podcast we did where there's nothing, like, super crazy. Rebels, I would say, like, this season is probably a step up from last season, which is a step up from the previous season.

But it does, because it was still on that television kind of series network setup where it had a lot of filler episodes. We don't really stop doing that, I think, until we get to the Disney Plus stuff where there are eight episodes or so. Yeah. Yeah. But even then, people argue, like, man, no Season 2 spider episode. Is that really necessary? Right. So many spider fillers. Okay, cool. Yeah, let's take a look at this one here. Season 3, Episode 10, An Inside Man.

This was directed by Stuart Lee, written by Nicole Dubuque. Hold on, Episode 10? Sorry. Wait. No, yeah, you're right. Thank you. I'm like, I guess I'm there. I guess I'm the end. Episode 7, Imperial Super Commando, by Stuart Lee, written by Christopher Yost. Released November 5, 2016 on Disney XD. Guest stars Kevin McKidd, Ray Stevenson, and this is Rebels Recon. Let's take a listen. What's up, Rebels fans?

Andi Gutierrez coming at you from Lucasfilm headquarters in my normal, everyday work clothes. This week, Sabine got her hands on a coveted piece of Mandalorian gear in Imperial Super Commandos, and now I'm here to take you behind the scenes. This is Rebels Recon. Ezra, Sabine, and Fen'rar head to Conqueror Dawn to investigate a downed communications system, but discover the base was destroyed by Mandalorians working for the Empire. Stay alert. They're around here somewhere.

However, when Ezra is captured by Gar Saxon, Fen and Sabine must work together to save him. What took you so long? I was using strategy. It takes longer. Following the successful rescue, Fen abandons the group, leaving them to fend for themselves, but only to have a change of heart in the end. You haven't forgotten, always. That has earned my respect. This week, Sabine and Fen'rar had to work together to escape from Mandalorians working for the Empire.

I sat down with cast and crew to talk about Sabine's encounter with her Mandalorian past, the design behind Gar Saxon in the Imperial Super Commandos, and what it means for the Rebellion now that Fen'rar is on their side. Check it out. Ezra experiences a bit of Mandalorian culture in Imperial Super Commandos. How do you think this affects his relationship with Sabine? There's a whole new respect for Sabine, and Sabine becomes a real force in Season 3.

The whole crew realizes that Sabine can really help out in more ways than one. Sabine is starting to lean into her Mandalorian legacy. How has her relationship with Fen'rar helped that along? Fen is there to be this constant reminder of where she came from. Earlier in the series, she was pretty much the only Mandalorian element in the show. Sabine is such an individual that it's easy to imagine her turning her back on her roots. Fen is more of a traditionalist, and that challenges her.

It's this constant reminder of what it is that she left. She's probably the closest thing she has to her true family. He does represent home, and she's drawn to that, and she's been away from home for a long time, so it just makes sense that she would seek out one of her own people to try to reconnect. The Super Commandos seen in this episode are serving the Empire. What has the Empire brought to Mandalore that has gotten this group to side with them? Stability, for one thing.

We've been thinking a lot about Mandalore as the series progresses, and we started peeling back some layers in Sabine's history. To get there, we started extrapolating, well, what does it mean to have an Empire on Mandalore, and how do you keep a planet that went through such a chaotic civil war during the Clone Wars in order?

But it seems that obviously we have a world where not everyone was aligned, and there were those who were more opportunistic and who were willing to sign up with the Empire. The idea behind Boba Fett was that he was part of a group called Imperial Super Commandos, and now we're revisiting the idea of Stormtrooper Mandalorians. Right. How did you come up with the look for these soldiers?

Obviously, there's all the very, very early days Joe Johnson designs for what ultimately evolved into Boba when he was still going to be part of a squad of white-armored Super Commandos. Dave had a bunch of sketches that were a little bit of that but also hybrided with some ideas that he had of his own. He felt that they needed to be unique enough that you didn't think that's just Mandalorian armor with a T-visor that is white that it had.

Something that was a little more aggressive and very slightly more Imperial. And then as soon as you make any of that armor white, it obviously begins to read much more like a clone or a Stormtrooper or a First Order. Gar Saxon is a character that had originally appeared in the Son of Dathomir series, and he was sighted with Maul. What has he been up to since then, and why is he now with the Empire? Gar Saxon is like the quintessential cello.

He dresses up in Mandalorian tradition, but it's clearly he's more interested in power than anything deep-rooted, any sort of tradition. The idea is he probably was throughout Maul's reign on Mandalore. And once Maul was removed towards the end of the Clone War, Gar Saxon very likely withdrew into hiding.

Then once the Republic became the Empire and the Empire wanted a puppet leader on Mandalore, he was probably more than willing to come out of the shadows and do whatever it took to earn the Emperor's favor. How much of the Clone War's design translated to Rebels? Very little because Gar was part of Darth Maul's band and he had the big horned helmet and he had a glowing yellow visor. So pretty much nothing for the Gar. Yeah, it's quite different. It's completely different, which was deliberate.

It was sort of Gar has thrown his lot in completely with the Empire. The idea was that the super commandos are much more Imperial than they are Mandalorian, which will sort of play into storylines that are going to come up in the future. At the end of this episode, Fen'rar has committed himself to the Rebels' cause. How do you think this will affect the Alliance going forward?

If you look at how important Sabine has been as one Mandalorian warrior, her skills, tactics, techniques, her knowledge of the Empire even has really helped the Rebellion. So bringing in another Mandalorian warrior who's capable, who's also a leader, can only help. Fen is a thread to a fighting force that we know is highly skilled, well-equipped, and capable, which is something that the Rebels are always in need of. So the question becomes, can our group of Rebels enlist the aid of Mandalorians?

All right, there we go. What'd you think of that? It's funny because they kind of touched on all the stuff I thought was really interesting. Because I know, when this episode first came out, we were like, oh man, they're using the old Boba Fett design, bringing in these, like, Mando, Mandalorians. Sorry, Empire Mandalorians. Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, people might be like, oh, but there's, like, that other old Boba Fett design, which they used for some of those other Mandalorians at one point, and the costume that Obi-Wan Kenobi took from that bounty hunter in Clone Wars and stuff. And, you know, everyone's right. Like, there was so many concepts drawn up for that character that they had a lot to draw from later when they started needing variants of Mandalorian helmets and such. So there's a lot out there.

There's a lot out there, you know, done up for Boba Fett. And, you know, he's really sort of the starting point for a lot of this Mandalorian lore. It's also the origin of the Mythasaur. I mean, the Mythasaur started off as the sigil on his armor, just a little painted-on skull. Just an emblem. Just an emblem, yeah. And then from that grew this lore, this legend of this giant beast, and stories were told throughout the EU.

And, you know, now we've got, you know, a live-action show featuring an actual Mythasaur in it. So, like, it's crazy how far things come. That's true. Mythasaur or Myth-no-more. Myth-no-more. Did you just come up with that? I did, yeah. Man, how? I should have given up that moment when we were actually reviewing the episode. My brain's not got that much juice in it. This episode marks the first time that we see the Phantom 2.

And the Phantom 2 is designed from an old Republic Separatist shuttle, which we saw them recover in the last battle, in the previous episode. And Sabine has painted it up to make it look like it's part of the Ghost, and they've... You did a good job. It matches the rest of the Ghost really well. It does. It does. It does a really nice job. My kind of weirdness suspicion is I didn't think that those ships were of the same size. I was just going to bring that up. I always thought they were bigger.

Yeah, I always thought so too. We see them in person in the film. Sorry, was someone calling in? Escape pod controls going haywire in the morning. And still do coffee on the control panel. Yeah, exactly. Because we see that ship, right? When they arrest... The Moedians, I think it's in The Phantom Menace. Is that right? Yeah, so in Phantom Menace... Is it Phantom Menace? I forget if we see them in Phantom Menace or not, but I know for sure that there's one in Attack of the Clones.

In Geonosis, there's one that kind of gets away when Duke is escaping. And there's more than a few, I think, in Revenge of the Sith. There's one that shows up on Utapau, I believe. And I've got a Clone Wars Lego set version, which is like gray and blue. But in the movies, they're usually like a tan color. And I think the Rebels, for when they showed up in the show, like in The Last Battle, that is, I think they did a pretty good job at kind of designing it off of that ship.

But yeah, I do think that traditionally, the Phantom is a bit of a smaller ship compared to the likes of one of those shuttles. And yet, you know, magically, it sort of just fits in the back of the Ghost. But it just goes to show how big of a ship the Ghost really is. Like, the Ghost is huge. That's true. I'm wondering, it makes me wonder if there's like standardized ship sizes, you know, or like, you kind of look at like our cars, right?

If you look at like a sedan, they're all like roughly the same size. Yeah. Or if you go for a truck, they're like roughly the same size. I wonder if there's something along those lines. So then... Yeah, there must be, right? There's crossover for stuff like docking. Right. And we've seen a lot of... Phantom Menace. Yeah. It is the same ship in the Phantom Menace as well. It is. Okay. All right. All right. Yeah. So... It's when the Nemoidians land after they've taken over Naboo. So does it...

The droids have already taken over the city. Does it look like visibly bigger? Yes. I was saying something. So the part where the ramp comes out underneath, just that section is the same size as the original Ghost. And then it's, I don't know, eight times as big over top of it. Okay. So because the original Phantom has a cockpit with, what is it, one pilot seat in the middle? And then behind it in the show, they make visible room to have a cluster of like five people

kind of chilling back there. Right. So like it's not like an escape pod, but it's definitely not like massive. Not a lot bigger. I will say the one in Phantom Menace looks bigger than the one in Attack of the Clones. Okay. Like I think it's too, yeah. I would say that it actually looks like it's like a different scaled version. In Clone Wars, they did make a longer one. Okay. Yeah, they did make a longer one. In Clone Wars, there's like two types.

So there's one that's like elongated and there's like two kind of fins on top. And I think that one only showed up in Clone Wars. It was called a Maxillipede Shuttle. And the other one, I forget what the other one's called, but the other one is a shorter one, and it only has the one fin on top, the one that the Phantom 2 is made of. Oh, here we go. That one's called a Sheathipede. Sheathipede, and the other one's called a Maxillipede Shuttle. Okay, I'm looking at the Sheathipede.

Sheathipede, yeah. Okay, yeah, so passengers, it says eight. You could technically get that in the Ghost, but they'd be crammed. Yeah, and the length here, it says 14.4 meters long on Wookieepedia. And I think we can trust Wookieepedia, would you say? I mean, no one else is going to have a better idea. Yeah, it's true. I mean, you know, it's Wookieepedia. So yeah, I would say like, okay, yeah, 14.4, and then let's combine it with the Phantom 2. There's one in Revenge of the Sith as well.

So there's one in each prequel movie, and they're all different. The Phantom 2 doesn't have it. So I just pasted in the recording chat on the side there, all three of them. Oh, okay. They seem to get smaller with each movie. So maybe it's the Revenge of the Sith version. Yeah, oh, yeah, that's interesting. Okay, well, okay, so the one from Revenge of the Sith, though, it's not like that. It's the smallest, and it has like an actual cockpit window. Right, oh, yeah. Yeah, it's different.

Because the one from Attack of the Clones doesn't have a window. Yeah, it's the only one with a window. And then the one from Phantom Menace is, yeah, that is visibly much larger. That one actually looks like the Maxipede one. Oh, okay. Just based on where the off ramp is. I just looked up the Phantom 2, and it actually looks like none of them. It's the Rebels art style. It's most resemblant, I think, of the one from Revenge of the Sith with the giant bubble cockpit thing on it.

But you're right. The windows are completely different. Yeah, it's a lot more stubby looking. But what's interesting to me is on the Wikipedia page for the Phantom 2, it doesn't actually give dimensions. There's no dimensions provided. So they didn't just assume that it is the same scale as the Sheath of Pede class transport shuttle, which is, for all those listening at home, the one from Revenge of the Sith that you see on Utapau. And yet some of the other stats are different.

So they've got different costs and different maximum speeds, and that's the only noticeable difference. But I don't know. I mean, I guess it's just one of those things. It's like what best suits the show. And to me, I would say if I were to come up with the Pablo answer, it's the fact that these classes of transport shuttles were probably so widely used. I mean, like there's also that one from Clone Wars that was saying that we didn't even see in the live action shows or films.

But again, maybe that's the one that we're seeing in Phantom Menace that we just can't really determine that well just because of the placement of the camera. But there's one, 100%, there's one called Sheath of Pede class type B shuttle. And that one's like, that one's just a super, super long version of the single thin shuttle. So there's a variety of these things out there. So we're already looking at four possible different types.

Maybe the Rebels ones are also, again, a different type, right? Maybe one that just wasn't revealed to us as of yet. Yeah, it looks like the one in Clone Wars is also different again. Yeah. I'm just sending you the photo of the Sheath of Pede class type B shuttle. Oh, that's really long. That's really long, right? Yeah. So there's a variety of these things out there. I guess it's not super difficult to imagine an idea that maybe the ones from Rebels are a bit more of a smaller variant.

Oh, that last one you just said, it's weird. It looks like Vader's tower. Yeah, it's got like the two fins on top. That's the Maxillipede, which is kind of funny because it's not even the biggest. That's true. And on top of that, I feel like they're making the wing bigger to accomplish nothing because there's nothing up there. Yeah. The whole transport's in the bottom instead of these two spires on top of it. Yeah. Yeah, but no, I think you're right. I think maybe there is something there.

There's maybe a discussion to be had about sort of the scale of ships and, you know, really just kind of how big are some things because for us to imagine the size of some of these ships, right, it can be very difficult because we're not really comparing them with any kind of normal sense of scale vehicle that we would own.

So when we look at something like the Millennium Falcon or the Ghost or something, it's not really until you see it in live action in person, like when you walk into the docking bay in episode four and, like, Luke takes a look at this giant ship and he's like, it's a hunk of junk. Right. And, you know, that's not exactly the first words that come to mind when you see it for the first time in the movie. If you've never seen the movie before, all you can think of is, whoa, like that's huge.

That's true. And then you turn, it's kind of a comical moment for Luke to be like, that's a hunk of junk. That's a pile of junk. It's a piece of junk. We could buy our own ship for this. So, you know, it's kind of funny, right? But at the same time, the Ghost, being a Corellian freighter, is supposed to be even noticeably larger, you know, bigger because it's got the deployable ship on the back. It's got the giant, like, sort of mini hangar thing that they always come out of, like at the bottom.

That's true. It's funny because you and I know that's the case because we've looked into it, but they never really show that. No. You never see it next to a YT-1300. No, that's right. That's right. And the Lego got it completely wrong, and it is smaller than every version of the Falcon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I was just having this conversation the other day with a friend of mine, with Curtis. And Curtis has been on the podcast before, I think once.

And, you know, we'll get him on again at some point. But he was texting me about sort of the new Lego Ghost set for Ahsoka that's coming out. And we were talking about UCS Lego sets, and he's a big Lego guy. And, you know, he loves the UCS stuff. Yeah, he loves the UCS stuff. He's got the UCS Falcon. He's got, you know, he's got a lot of these things, right? Not all of them, but a lot of them. And he was like, I really just wish that they'd made a UCS Ghost by now.

And I said to him, I was like, oh, man, dude, if they kept that to scale with the Falcon, that thing would be huge. Like, we're talking bigger than the Falcon. And I think the Falcon is like the Lego's crown jewel ship, right? Like, they make that as big as it is because it's their crown jewel ship, right? I don't think they're about to... People will buy it. Like, how many people would buy a scale Ghost just for the cost of parts? Exactly, right? Like, it would be even more expensive.

It would be absolutely gigantic, right? And as cool as it would be to have a giant massive spaceship in your living room on a table taking up the table, you know, the question really begs is like, how many people are going to look at it and know what it is? So the crown jewel being the Falcon is kind of the crown jewel for a reason because it's recognizable. So they make that one the biggest.

And even in the minifigure scale, they make the Lego Falcon, I think, bigger, noticeably bigger than the Ghost Lego version for minifigures, right? Because I have the Ghost, and you've seen it, and it's not like crazy big or anything. Yeah, it's smaller than I would have... Yeah, it's smaller than I would expect. It's like the size of a Lego tie fighter or something. Yeah, and they make the minifigure Falcon even bigger.

So, like, Lego kind of messes up a little bit when it comes to scale on their ships. They sort of play it by ear, and they're like, you know, how many bricks should we make this one, right? Yeah, that's what it comes down to is like price points, I think, because the Ghost was for a kid's show. So they're not going to have a lot of adults with deep pockets buying it, right?

It's going to be a lot of younger people, so it's got to be price-pointed where kids can, A, afford it on allowance, or get it for like a birthday or something, and the parents won't be wanting to skip it because it's too expensive. I think that's where our sense of scale comes from, though, right?

Like, you know, we look at the Lego ships, and we kind of sort of see these things growing up, and as we get older, and I think we just sort of mentally put the puzzle together in sort of Lego sizes and, you know, translate that to the show. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, because that's like your physical rough part, like point of view of being able to see it, right? Exactly, yeah. From a certain point of view. From a certain point of view.

I love how splinter cells of Mandalorians have to earn their wings, you know, their jetpacks, you know, in the Mandalorian show, you know, at some point, Din Djarin, he gets his jetpack, and, you know, gets the whole talk, right? The whole jetpack talk, right? Meanwhile, Sabine is like, I've been wanting one of these, and then she like freaking takes it from the guy and just flies off and knows how to use it right away. Did you find that kind of weird and funny at the same time?

Well, I think they still have training. I think as Mandalorians, you still train with it, so you know kind of what's going on. I know in Clone Wars, we're in Mandalore, they all have jetpacks. And I guess Din Djarin is part of a splinter cell that doesn't really quite conventionally follow the ways of the Mandalorians that we know from previous Star Wars stories, but I just thought that was so... I don't know why that lasted.

It sort of stuck in my head that Din Djarin, you know, his group, they've got to earn the jetpack, they've got to earn the wings, and yet, you know, I just see this like snippy little girl just like knock some dude out and like take his jetpack and be like, I've always wanted one of these. I'm like, oh cool, yeah, this is mine now. And then it just flies off. I'm like, alright. Did you notice the design for the jetpack was different? Yeah, yeah, it is. Imperial Commandos?

The Imperial Super Commando jetpack, yeah. It's streamlined, and they have this single thruster instead of the two boosters. Yeah, yeah, what do you think of that design? It looks like Apple decided to make a jetpack. It looks like an air filtration system. Really? The Imperial Super Commandos are just like Apple Boba Fetts? Yeah, 100%. Well, same with all the sequel trilogy Stormtroopers being like...

Oh, the Eye Troopers. The Eye Troopers, yeah, that's what people were calling them back when they revealed the design. I almost forgot about that. But yeah, it's kind of you know, very clean, very... Yeah, I don't know, I guess I guess Imperial is sort of a good way to sort of put it, I guess. I have questions, though, as to perhaps you know, is their armor made of Beskar? And if it is... I don't think so. I think I'm not sure

why I know this. I'm sure I heard it somewhere, but I think it's all just plastoid, same as regular Stormtroopers. That's definitely possible. Another possibility is that it could be the same as that white armor Beskar stuff that we saw in The Mandalorian Season 3 most recently when they go to Mandalore in the finale episode and they're fighting against all those sort of Imperialized Stormtroopers that are wearing sort of a Beskar-like strength armor.

And apparently it is Beskar, but it's sort of spray-painted with like a white polished coating or something like that. No, I guess I might be wrong, because I'm looking, I just looked at Bookpedia and it says it's made from Beskar. Well, if it is, I mean you know, there you go. But it's just like, I thought to myself like, well, we've seen this now again

you know, in the live-action series. We've seen white Beskar, you know, I guess it's just, yeah, maybe it just comes out of the paint, but yeah, it's just the paint. It's so polished and everything, it almost makes it look like it's blastory, right? So do we ever find out if the Troopers in Mandalorian are supposed to be Imperial Super Commandos or they're something else entirely?

I think the ones from Mandalorian are indeed a variant of the Super Commandos, however they're not necessarily part of what's his face? Gar. Gar Saxon's unit. I think they're of a different unit, maybe not even Mandalorian at all. And yet, the armor exists because of Moff Gideon's schemes there. But, you know, maybe there's some inspiration there. Maybe all of that sort of came from the

Imperial Super Commandos. And at the time when the story arc was being done up, you know, let's not forget we didn't really know the true fate of Mandalore. And it's not even brought up in the show. I've been keeping an eye out for whether or not they trip over the lore that's been established in the Mandalorian. And so far there's been no mention of the destruction of Mandalore or the Night of the Thousand Tears, right, when they blow up Sundari City. There's been no mention of Moff Gideon

of course, nothing. And I think that's probably a good thing only because maybe Dave kind of knew ahead of time, I don't know what I want to do with that planet. Let's just stick to other planets in the same region and tell stories there. But not necessarily what happened on Mandalore itself. Yeah, they haven't really dove into that much, have they? No, and I do know that there's more coming up, you know, more Mandalorian stuff coming down

the road in Season 3. So, you know, let's kind of hold that question in our heads as we move forward through the season. But, you know, just kind of keep an eye out. Keep an eye out for, like, little things that might be tripping over what we know now from the live action show because that to a lot of people will be the definitive sort of story as to what happened to Mandalorians

in general. Not a lot of people know what happened to Mandalore and its other surrounding planets in, you know, we only see Din Djarin kind of point them out to Grogu when he's flying to Mandalore and he goes to one of those planets to visit Vol Catan, but, you know, we don't get absolutely every system, every planet in the system, like, when he's flying to Mandalore with Grogu there. So, definitely something to keep an eye on.

Yeah, I really am curious to explore it more just because even when you just, like, see Mandalore, the state it's in, like, you have questions, right? Like, chunks of planets in their system are just entirely missing. Yeah. A lot of that's supposed to go back to the Mandalorian wars in the EU. I think it was prior to Revan. Yeah. How the planet was sort of bombarded and, you know, uninhabitable so that they started living in domes.

Yeah, and that's actually, I was just watching the Mandalorian gallery, season 3, like the making of season 3 episode, and I thought it was kind of interesting that, I forget who it was, it was Dave or John or somebody. Oh, Doug, it was Doug Chang, the designer, lead designer on that show. And he actually said it was George's idea for Mandalore to have that environment. And I assume that this comes from when they did Mandalore up for the Clone Wars.

Probably based on some, maybe some aspects of EU material, maybe? Again, perhaps maybe EU material collaborated with George when Mandalore had to be done way back when in some book somewhere, right? Well, I'm trying to remember the Republic Commando novels, because they went to Mandalore. Yeah. I remember the planet was just like uninhabitable, except for, I think in the books, there was still some livable space on the North and South Poles. But like, that's it. You're right. Okay, yeah.

So, I could buy that. I mean, you know, it's a big planet. I don't think the whole thing would be completely uninhabitable. But that is, it is kind of worth knowing, like, it's been made that way. You know, it wasn't always that way. And what's cool about it is it was George's idea to do that. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I didn't realize that was the case. Yeah, kind of a neat little thing. Ezra riding Pergol to riding Chopper in this episode, what will he be riding next?

I just wanted to throw that out there. That's all I needed. Something else that came up was Sabine has now bested Gar Saxon and Fen'Harel in combat, and I found it a little weird. And she's like 15. Yeah, like a 15-year-old girl just beat two war veterans hand-to-hand combat, both starting with Fen'Harel and now Gar Saxon. And Gar Saxon, you know, we haven't really talked about him yet. He's the dude with the helmet back in the Clone Wars. He's the guy with the yellow glowing visor.

We first met him in the Son of Dathomir. Sorry, no, my mistake. We first met him in I think Season 5 of Clone Wars. He knocks Obi-Wan out when he's calling for help. And then we see him free Darth Maul from prison in the Son of Dathomir comics, which adapted four unproduced Clone Wars episodes because the show was cancelled. And then he showed up in the Season 7 finale helping Maul

in the Battle of Mandalore. And he was the one, the main guy over the intercom that's like, yeah, Lord Maul, we need your help. And then Maul's like, die well, Mandalorian. And then he kind of signs off and gets the heck out of there. And this is the same guy. So, you know, he's been through a lot. He's been screwed over a few times, sided with the wrong guys. Now he's with the Empire. Yeah, it makes sense then that he would join the Empire, right? He's kind of always betrayed, more or less,

his people. Yeah. He's a scumbag. Exactly. I'm wondering if, I'm looking on Wikipedia, and I'm not sure if it's backwards or not. Because it says that the Son of Dathomir comics aren't canon. They are. They are. The Son of Dathomir's coming up under the Legends banner. There should be a canon tab as well. And then that doesn't have the Son of Dathomir. Oh no, it does too. That's why Son of Dathomir's showing up under both. That's weird. That is weird.

Okay, so that's probably because it came out in 2014. And this was, I think, before they'd released the first canon novel. So there was a bit of weirdness going on with what's canon and what's not. It was also one of the last things that was published by Dark Horse before Dark Horse lost the license to Marvel Comics. In a way, it's sort of considered by some people pre-Disney canon literature, but that doesn't make it not canon. This is still canon

material. It was one of the first canon pieces of literature to have happened in the beginning. It adapts four entire Clone Wars scripts that were done up for Clone Wars Season 7, I believe. So it's like that Luke novel that came out almost immediately after the announcement so they made it canon. That's right. Before everything kind of fit in. I think it's the one where he moves the noodles with the force. Yeah, that's exactly it.

Sorry, my mistake. They're adapted and unproduced screenplays for Season 6 of the Clone Wars. But if we all remember correctly, Season 5 came out. There was a break for the summer. Season 6 started premiering and then the show was cancelled and progress on that season was cut short. But all this concept already existed. The stories were done. The audio already existed. All that stuff. So they had the performances and they had the material to produce these episodes in a different media format.

And it's really good. I'm kind of sad that these episodes didn't make it further than a page because man, like the death of Mother Talzin, there was that. There was Count Dooku fighting Darth Maul. Heck yeah, I want to see that. And General Grievous, lots of action there. He actually kills some Jedi for the first time in a while. That was cool. There was a bunch of stuff to appreciate. And a lot more Mandalorian related stuff.

Also explains how he gets captured by Sidious in the end of Season 5 and all of a sudden in Season 7, quote unquote Season 7, he's all of a sudden at the top of the chain still ruling over Mandalore. The big question a lot of people have is what the heck happened? This comic explains it all. This is the missing story arc that perhaps people asking that question haven't read. It's because it's canon. It's because Dave knew that this story existed in the lore. Existed in his head.

This is his story. Naturally, we're telling the next chapter. Let's not change it because this story's out there. We've released it to fans. It exists as a comic book. Let's leave it at that. Yeah, it makes sense. When you're trying to keep the story moving forward, going into Rebels and stuff you have to go on the basis of your story of what kind of already happened, right? Because you don't have a replacement for that. Totally. Makes sense. Totally.

We should probably move up our our We've talked about this episode for a long time. Yeah, we've talked about this one for a while. Alright, Season 3. Oh, Pablo Points Poodoos. I'm gonna score this one. Explain it, bro. Yeah, Pablo Points of Poodoos. Three Pablo Poodoos is the worst of the worst of the worst. Moving up from there you got two Pablo Poodoos, one Pablo Poodoo Bendu. That's a 50% score.

And then we got Pablo Points. One, two, and three Pablo Point three being the best of the best of the best. And I'm gonna give this one I'm gonna give this one a Bendu. Sort of right in the middle for me. Yeah, that's fair. Like it wasn't bad and it also just kind of didn't stand out to me at all. I mean, it's much better than our previous episode we did which had a big old squad of two Poodoos. Yeah, that is much better than that one.

Yeah, also Gary Saxon is like, I feel like he could have been a little done a little better on this one. You think he just came across as too weak? Yeah, he just come across too weak, yeah. Sabine beats him. Yeah, Sabine probably should have lost. I would also have gave her something to grow towards. Yeah, totally. I guess she has enough going on as we'll see in the future here. I'll give it one Pablo Point, I think. Alright, sounds good.

Season 3, Episode 8, Iron Squadron directed by Saul Ruiz, written by Matthew Michniewicz. Released on Disney XD November 19, 2016. Guest stars Meredith Ann Bull, Lars Mikkelsen, Eric Lopez and Zachary Gordon. This is Rebels Recon. Hey there Rebels fans, it's your old pal Gooty or Andy Gutierrez if you're not into that whole nickname thing, coming at you from Lucasfilm

headquarters. This week the Rebels encountered the scrappy Iron Squadron crew and now I'm here to show you how it all came together. This is Rebels Recon. Above Mike Hoppo, the ghost encounters a fearless crew calling themselves the Iron Squadron, successfully attacking an Imperial transport alone. They just bombed the Imperial transport with cargo? Aboard their ship, Hera and Ezra try to convince Iron Squadron's Captain, Martin Matten, to join

his Uncle Sato's rebellion. You can't stay here and fight the Empire alone. But after Mart refuses the offer and leaves his crew with the Rebels, he's ambushed by the Empire and it's up to the Ghost to save him. You guys came back! What do you expect? We're the Iron Squadron! This week we saw the Ghost crew team up with the Iron

Squadron to go against the Empire. I sat down with cast and crew to talk about what it was like bringing their iconic ship back into Star Wars, why the crew is so headstrong, and get a little more information on the inspiration behind these super cool characters. In Iron Squadron, Ezra meets a group of kids fighting the Empire on his own, much like he did before he was a part of the Ghost crew. How do you think he can help them grow?

The Iron Squadron, they're all based on cool people in Lucasfilm, so there are already stakes to that episode because you gotta do these characters justice. But he feels a closer connection with them than most people right away just because it's one of those cases where you see another version of yourself and you automatically relate. And they're doing the same thing he's doing. They're trying to fight against the Empire. How long do you think the Iron Squadron has been

fighting the Empire on their own? Probably not too long before we meet them in this episode. Mart's father, who is the brother of Sato, he got killed by the Empire on Maikapo. So ever since then, Mart took it upon himself to take action and make sure that the Empire doesn't do this to any more people. So he formed his own group of rebels and called themselves the Iron Squadron. They haven't been there long enough to even know what a Star Destroyer is.

They've taken out a few transports, probably strafed some ground forces. They have no idea that there's this larger scale battle beyond their particular neighborhood. So they're feeling pretty confident in what they can do in their area, but they need to be educated on the ways of the larger galaxy. Since Gudiad's name is a reference to me, did you use any elements of my look in designing her? Same with the other members of the Iron Squadron? You mean John

and Mart? Yeah. Mart's hair was the whole thing. That didn't go through too many changes. We knew we were going for some kind of Ramones 70's look for Mart. Gunnar was probably the trickiest one. We went back and forth on Gunnar. And then Gudi, because she was Thelin, a lot of that was going to be driven by what we know Thelins look like. So there were options to sort of play with hair color and stuff, but as far as horns running down the side of the head and the dots and stuff, that was sort of

locked in. If you look at some of the original story ideas for Star Wars, the end battle against the Empire was going to be, in addition to there being Wookiees involved, there was going to be this sort of lost boys group of kids and just a bunch of youngsters that would join the fight against the Empire. Ultimately that didn't happen in A New Hope, but that idea has always been in there, this core idea of a bunch of young kids leading

the fight against tyranny. So is that ship actually the Outrider as made famous by Dash Rendar, or is it just another YT 2400? It's just another YT. I mean, you might think of those as the Chevy vans of the galaxy. They're everywhere. There's different paint jobs and different colors and different decals. So Rebels isn't the first time that you've drawn the ship that the Iron Squadron is in. No. Yeah, you worked on it a little bit with Shadows of the Empire. I did. I did work on it for

Shadows of the Empire. I really liked how it was similar but different to the Falcon. It's just the smaller, more compact, slightly sleeker version. I didn't initially come up with the design for that ship. It was originally a Doug Chang design. It was a lot of work actually, because vehicles and environments take more time than anything else. They have to be a little specific

for a TV show. We can't do sort of a shot-based solution like a movie where the outside doesn't necessarily have to perfectly hook up with the inside. We have to make it and then whatever it is is what it's going to be. I was recently talking to Doug Chang about it. It was actually designed for the special edition of

Star Wars. And because Shadows of the Empire was in development at the same time and was in need of a ship, they plucked that design and assigned it to Dash Randar, named it the Outrider, and it became this real thing for fans who could fly through a video game, play with it as a toy, read it in a comic book. So it has a lot of weight to it. So we're all big fans of it and we're able to give it some highlight here. Alright, so yeah. I love how they just mostly talked about the

Outrider. Yeah, I know, right? So that's something I was going to bring up. Something I was going to bring up because I really don't have a lot to say about this episode. For me, this episode was a bit kind of meh, but the YT-2400 model, you might be looking at it going, hey, it looks like the Falcon. It's like a Corellian freighter that's a different model. So yeah, it definitely should resemble that. And you know, it's a... I like how Zeb describes it in the episode as a ship full of

Ezras. Yeah, I wrote that down too. So good. Iron Squadron. Sounds like a ship full of Ezras. Wait a minute. We're going to rescue a ship full of Ezras? He's just not interested at all. Yeah, that's like his way of saying annoying bratty young kids. Yeah. There's some neat stuff in that breakdown though that I was not aware of. Yeah, I didn't realize Doug Chang had designed it for the special editions just to be in that far background shot in A New Hope. Yeah, that one shot. Yeah, there you go.

That's George though. George always wants everything pretty thorough. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. But they're right. They speak of these ships with identities because it's a continuity thing. Once they design a ship the way it is on the inside and the outside, it stays that way. Yeah. This episode was kind of stupid. I really just thought, oh man. I remember when I first saw it. I was like, the Outrider. And then there's a bunch of kids on board. Dash, nowhere to be found.

I know Phil like, man, I can't wait to show him this episode and be like, Phil, that's it. That's him. That's it. And then you cut to the inside of the ship and it's just a bunch of Ezra's, a bunch of bratty kids. Oh, no. And him be like, no! You know. How do you convince Phil that Dash was replaced with Sato's nephew? Sato's nephew, yeah. The one moment you think, Dash! The next, not so much. So, yeah. I don't know. What's the opposite of Dash? Like, walk?

Yeah. This episode really, like, okay, to me, this episode didn't have a lot going for it, you know? Like, I just, it was a bunch of kids who joined the Empire. That was kind of interesting, what Pablo shared about how that was kind of in the original story to have that be a thing. Yeah, and like a new hope. Yeah, so to have that kind of play tribute to that idea, I like that. And that's about all I

like about it. I will say that that one line that Pablo shared raised it a little bit in my mind because it was so meh. Like, these kids are like, like you said, they're like, they only really know their, like, local city block. They don't know anything about the world outside of that. They don't even know where a Star Destroyer is. Right. That was kind of funny. That is kind of funny.

That was probably the best scene where, like, they're used to taking out, like, the small transports and they call them Star Destroyers. They get called out by Sabine. And then there's, like, a slightly bigger ship shows up, like, a Star Destroyer! Yeah. Yeah, slightly bigger. Everything's a Star Destroyer to them. Yeah. Exactly. They're just kind of living the dream,

you know? They're, like, living the the hero's sort of victory in their head going like, we're a bunch of local heroes, like, stopping the Empire on our home world sort of thing. And then, you know, the actual the actual Empire shows up and then they're like, oh, shoot. Right? Oh my gosh. It's just the small potatoes they're dealing with. Yeah. Like, how bad is the Empire that they can't take out this cohort of, like, ten-year-old kids? Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. You're just so incompetent.

Alright, Pablo points of poodoos. I'm gonna give this one one Pablo poodoo. Okay. Yeah. I thought you might go there. I'm gonna give it a Bennu. Just because I really like that they've got to explore the YT-2700 a bit more. That's fair. That's fair. Do you think the the Lost Boys group of kids in A New Hope was in, like, the original script draft? Or was it even prior to that? I've never even heard of that before.

I think that's what George was saying or what Pablo was saying about George's ideas for Star Wars. I don't know if it ever made it to a draft, but, you know, it's something that he kind of liked an idea of, which maybe broke it up with having Obi-Wan and Han and Chewie as part of the crew, but Luke and Leia are still quite young when they're amongst Yeah, they're, like, 18, basically. Yeah, they're, like, 18, 19 years old sort of thing. You know, when they're going up against the

Empire. So, they're adults, but at the same time they're, like, fresh. You know, fresh adults. Oh my gosh. I wonder if this is going to get reused into skeleton crew or something. Oh, 100%. Yeah, 100%. I mean, like, you know, that's what we know about. That's pretty much all we know about the show, is that it's just a bunch of kids. So, yeah. There you have it. Iron Squadron, everybody. Season 3, Episode 9, The Wincathu Job. Directed by Mel Zweier.

Written by Gary Witta. November 19, 2016 on Disney XD. Guest stars James Hong and Jim Cummings, of course. Returning as Hondo Onaka. Here is Rebels Recon. What's up Rebels fans? It's Andi Gutierrez, back at it again from Lucasfilm Headquarters. This week, Hondo and Azmorgan returned with a new scheme, and now I'm here to take you behind the scenes. So, grab your favorite Ugnaught and hold on tight. Rebels Recon starts right now.

Hondo and Azmorgan convinced the Rebels to board an abandoned Imperial freighter above Wincathu in exchange for a cache of proton bombs. What's in it for you two? Well, there is also some cargo you would not be interested in. Once on board, the crew learns that this is not the first time Hondo has attempted to board the ship. So, you brought us in only after you'd lost your entire crew trying

it yourself. But while unloading the loot, the crew awakens dormant Imperial sentry droids and must escape the ship without their treasures in order to survive. Okay, we got them! Cut the line! This week, we saw two of our favorite pirates make their return to Rebels. I sat down with cast and crew to talk about Hondo and Azmorgan, Ezra's relationship with Hondo, how the sentry droids were inspired by the Dark Forces video game, and so much more. Check it out. Hondo and

Azmorgan return. Yes. What is it like creating these more offbeat episodes with these fun characters? Oh my goodness, they are a blast to work with. You can take their characters and drop them in any situation and basically just let them go. You know, let them do their thing. I mean, the opportunity to put Jim Cummings and James Hong in the same story and have them bounce off each other is just irresistible. You gotta figure these guys, their relationships probably change on a daily if not

hourly basis. In Star Wars, there's room for stories of all kinds. Besides just the deep mythological stories of good and evil, I think the colorful characters really kind of work well in a story like this. After all these adventures with Hondo, what do you think Ezra's real opinion of the pirate is? I think he loves him. Hondo and Ezra have a special bond because the kid that he was on Lothal is

still part of him. And he was a little street rat kid who stole things from people and wanted to instigate and stir up trouble. And that's exactly what Hondo is. He hasn't lost that youthful spirit to him and that cavalier attitude. What they see as parameters or what's appropriate is a lot broader than most people. So I think that's a fun place for them to both live in. The gag with the hole in the door is one of my favorite jokes this entire season. Whose idea was that? This was not

even in the script. Zeb has been put in control of this mission and he sends Chopper to the bridge to turn the power on so they can get inside. I'm like, but Ezra's right there and he's got a lightsaber. Why doesn't Ezra just go I'm not waiting. I'm going to cut a hole in the door. And then when we get to Act 3 and the sentry droids are coming down the hallway. We originally had in the script that the door was sealed shut and then the droids

ended up having to blast through it. But if the door is still shut and there's a big hole in it it's just a really funny moment. You think when you're dealing with a CG show you think it's completely imaginary. But there's a reality to it because you have the assets and you're modifying them for the purposes of the show and the hole was cut in the door for the story needs and it just naturally informed the gag that came afterwards.

The Imperial security droids look a lot like they were inspired by the Dark Troopers seen in the Dark Forces video game. Was this actually one of the inspirations? It absolutely was. In the script the droids that were on board that got activated were actually probe droids and it made sense that the Empire would use Imperial probe droids as

guards on the ship. But then while we were making it we went but that's really boring we've seen them and we know what they do so just being a big fan of Dark Forces and knowing that the plot called for Imperial scary monster robots it made sense at least to pitch. We've seen that Hondo actually has a bit of a heart but does Azmorgan have any redeemable traits about him? I don't know. You want to keep these guys contrasting as much as possible. Azmorgan is not completely wicked but you do want

to keep him repulsive. This story really is about the idea that Ezra always wants to think the best about people that he's encountered and to see good things in them. This is kind of one of the great things about him and it's a weakness sometimes because he will trust in people he shouldn't. Alright so this one was kind of interesting Hondo and Azmorgan return to the story and Hondo makes a blind joke at Kanan he just shakes his head. Right? Yeah. I was like man he does that twice in a row

I think. Classic Hondo classic. Oh I'm blind. You would have to be blind not to see this opportunity. Oh I'm so sorry by the way. All Hondo. Yeah. Proton bombs they call them proton bombs but are these intended to be the same as proton torpedoes? Yeah because when they shoot out they're just like a glowing plasma ball sort of thing. Right. So is this what shoots those out or did you kind of wonder that? That's a good question. I didn't really think about it to be honest.

Yeah. You never really see anything like this attached to X-wings. Right. I think it's something you put on the inside but I don't know. It looks like a giant battery to me. It looks like a canister of some sort. You can only use it once. It resembles an old submarine shell or something like that. Yeah that's exactly what it looks like. I googled it. So a proton torpedo and a concussion missile were significantly less powerful compared to a rocket or bomb.

So it actually seems to be just an explosive. Oh okay. Alright. Interesting. So maybe they just drop those I guess. Yeah I guess so. Yeah maybe this is what the bombers are using or something. The Y-wings. Right. Alright yeah well DT troopers. These dark trooper series sentry droids.

It was interesting to hear them talk about the reason why they use those instead of probes and another reference to dark forces which was pretty cool because you know just coming off the back of the YT-2400 class Karelian ship. I mean I feel like there's a lot of references and revels to the same game. Yeah. Makes sense. The DT series sentry droids. This is the same line of sort of stuff that leads to the dark trooper that we see in the Mandalorian.

Yeah see I was wondering that because I pulled up a bunch of stuff here because it's interesting how in the dark forces game there's three variants of the troopers. Right. Phases one two and three. Yeah so it's like the first one's a droid and the second one's a mech suit and then I can't remember if the third one's a mech suit or not. Yeah I need a bigger mech suit. Yeah so each one just gets bigger and like more powerful I guess.

It's also interesting I'm playing Force Unleashed and you fight them there as well and they still have kind of the same design. Yeah and in Mandalorian we've kind of been led to believe that that is version three dark troopers. Like the ones that Luke rips apart you know when he's going down the hallway. Those are dark trooper

V3s. So if these are V1s then I guess they're prior to being blaster proof but we know later in the lore that they end up becoming blaster proof as the virgins kind of move up the chain. So I thought it was kind of cool to kind of well as Morgan takes one down pretty easily and I was like oh okay well these are just yeah it was like okay well these are just kind of like battle droids I guess. Imperial versions of battle droids because you know really they just didn't last too long.

Well they seem to be just security droids so I think they just have something on board all of their ships I guess. It's just kind of like backup security but for the more unmanned stuff because we know Star Destroyers you never see them but they have stormtroopers.

What's interesting about these is anyone who played Jedi Survivor more recently will know that they showed up in there and I'm kind of wondering like whether and how consistent the design is and whether or not maybe there's a V2 in there somewhere but I thought it was kind of cool to see them again. It's just when you're playing the game they're like way harder to kill so to see like as Morgan take one down as easily as he did I was like alright clearly they haven't really figured

it out yet but. Yeah fair enough. Maybe I'm just faulty. Who knows. Yeah who knows. Oh and they were also in the Bad Batch. They were in the Bad Batch on Kamino I think right? They were very similar to the droids that the the ones that the troops like would train against you know in that big training arena. That's Bad Batch. That must be season one when they first went back to Kamino.

Yeah. It's throughout the show and that's kind of right after the prequels so I think that may have been either also V1 like these ones except maybe more prototype. Oh man. Yeah it is similar. What the heck. Maybe it's the same manufacturer feels like stuff in Star Wars whoever builds stuff makes stuff very similar. Yeah. It's like the It's like it's all designed by the same people. That's right. Like all Carithian ships kind of have the same style.

Yeah I don't know I thought maybe those are the prototype or maybe those are like the actual V1's and like these are actually like sort of V1 slash V2 sort of thing. Maybe. Compared to the original game they change a lot more. In the original game it's a pretty drastic model difference. But these ones unless you put them side by side like they kind of just look the same. Yeah. The only one that really looks different is the Mandalorian version but even that like that one looks smaller

than the other ones. And it's more humanoid as well because they actually don't they hold do they hold blasters on those versions or I forget. And the one Mandalorian. I forget or their arms blasters I forget. That's a good question. They hold them. I got a picture here. So they hold them in I guess the phase 3 and then phase 1 and 2 it's just built into their arm. Similar to like a Super Battle Droid. What a superior upgrade. Yeah. They give them hands. Yeah give them hands.

This episode was a bit comic relief. Hold on. I got one last thing. I just want to know how this plays in to what we learned about the lore in Mando season 2. Which is what's his name? The Moff Gideon. It's like his secret project of like the Dark Trooper project or whatever. Was it? There's a name for it. It's one of the they use one of the names that we find out from Rogue One. Oh really? I think so. It's like Dark Mantle or something. Yeah I'll have to look that up.

You might be on to something. It's definitely worth remembering though that Moff Gideon was part of the Empire like at this time. He is still responsible for the destruction of Mandalore at some point in this time frame. It is probably one of those things that maybe he kind of sort of took the mantle of the DT series sentry droids and kind of made it what it is. Expanded on that project.

Maybe he was the one who kind of decided to pilot the expanding sort of resources going behind improving that product and making it even better and whatever else. Yeah that makes sense. What I find kind of funny. Maybe it's like as he moves up the ranks he gets more power. This is like his personal project. He's able to push it further and more advanced.

So then when he's early in the Empire the best he can do is get his droids just be like random security droids cargo ships and then as it advances up it becomes like a main weapon against Mandalore. Who knows? This episode was a lot of comic relief. A bit of filler involved. But I feel like it was a successful episode. I feel like it told a fun story that wasn't a wasted time. It was a success. The Rebellion actually got something out of it.

Which again helps build what we come to know it to be by A New Hope. And we got to see some Dark Trooper action which is cool. And let's be honest any episode of Hondo is a great line. Yeah it's always pretty good with Hondo.

There's a specific line that I actually I didn't write down the line but I wrote down a time code so if you want to connect Disney Plus to the podcast here and go to 3 minutes and 59 seconds I think there's a great a great Star Wars escape pod line that we could have in there. Okay and that's my my hands are blazing. Which what's the time code? 3 minutes and 59 seconds. 3 minutes and 59 seconds. Okay. Yeah this line made me chuckle pretty good so I had to write it down.

I was like oh we should share this. Oh no my friends. You are the guys for this job. If the Empire couldn't salvage the ship what hope do we have? Aha! Because we have something in our favor that the Empire does not. For we are desperate. For once he's right. The Empire would abandon the ship. Yeah. Oh man that's a good one. That is a good one. We have something the Empire doesn't have. We are desperate. To me that's like Hondo in a nutshell. I love it. Oh totally.

He totally thinks outside of the box. Like most people would be like yeah we've got hope or like we've got family. Oh no no no. We are desperate. Yeah you know what. But he's on to something. He's totally on to something. Andor has really kind of given us a good idea for the Empire's attitude when it comes to stuff like this. They're so fat and satisfied. It's not worth the effort to go and get that ship if it's going to risk a bunch of... Well the Empire's weird.

Yes that's the case but they also use their troops and people even in their command as cannon fodder. They do waste a lot. I think it was maybe one of those things that just kind of like oh it's super dangerous to get this ship what's on board? Oh it's just a bunch of money. And a bunch of weapons and stuff. We don't need that. It's fine. It kind of felt consistent. So I liked it. It was cool. I could buy it. But yeah that's all I got. That was a cool design though.

I really like the idea of the ship as like trapped in the vortex just kind of slowly sinking towards the black hole or whatever it is. Oh yeah. That was kind of a neat environment to have an episode take place in. With the time running out sort of thing. Yeah exactly. That's definitely something that you would do for an RPG game. Yeah 100%. This episode connected with me pretty well. I think I would award this one 1.5 Pablo points. Yeah I think that's pretty solid.

I think I'll give it the same. One and a half. It definitely had enough going on that was really enjoyable. And I liked that Zeb got to be the leader and Ezra just hated every minute of it. Yeah. He's becoming kind of a pretentious prick. I know right. He's like going backwards in his character again. He's like I should be the leader. Dude you're like 15. I should be more powerful. That was too much time with that Sith holocron. Yeah exactly. I mean Zeb's like a war leader.

He was like the captain of the royal guard of his planet. And he's always just this background character. Yeah I mean while Ezra's like why does Zeb get to lead the mission? Why not me? Because you were on the streets doing nothing three years ago. Alright. Season 3 episode 10. An Inside Man directed by Stuart Lee. Written by Nicole Dubik. Released December 3rd 2016 on Disney XD. Guest stars Clancy Brown, Mary Elizabeth McGlynn, Lars Mikkelsen, Liam O'Brien, Bonnie Wilde, David Accord.

This is Rebels Recon. Rebels fans it is I, Andi Gutierrez walking you through your weekly 200 square foot visit to Lucasfilm headquarters. This week Kanan and Ezra returned to Lothal and uncovered a game changing secret. And now it's time to peel back the proverbial curtain and show you how it all came together. This is Rebels Recon. Kanan and Ezra head to Lothal to infiltrate an Imperial factory floor but get a surprise visit from Grand Admiral Thrawn.

My visit is not an honor however but an investigation. Trapped inside the factory Kanan and Ezra seek help from an unlikely ally in order to escape. Make for the east vehicle pool. You'll find a walker there you can escape in. After safely fighting their way out the Rebels learn the data they stole contains blueprints to a mysterious new ship. Looks like some new kind of tie interceptor but this one has shields. This week Ezra and Kanan learn the secret identity of another Fulcrum.

I sat down with cast and crew to talk about how Lothal has changed since the Rebels were last there. The return of Rider Izadi. How Calus turned to the Rebellion. For more classic Star Wars video game talk, check it out. In An Inside Man we return to Lothal for the first time and it seems like the Empire's gained a larger foothold. What can you tell us about what's been going on here? This is something that's kind of been increasing over the course of the entire galaxy.

We're trying to show how things are changing and getting worse everywhere. The oppression of the Empire is getting worse and worse and worse. It's really become a war factory at this point. They've dropped all pretense of being there to help you and the needs of the Imperial war machine have been amped up. It's just this big factory belching out smoke and producing AT-ATs and TIE Fighters and whatever the Empire needs. We also haven't seen Sumar since his farm was taken away

in Season 1. How did he end up in this Imperial facility? The Empire has basically made life for everyone. They're really difficult. You have to make a living, right? If the only thing you can do is work for the Empire in this factory that they've built, that's kind of what he has to do. Right now, your biggest service to the Empire, if you're not a soldier, is to cog in the machine. And that's what Sumar is doing.

One of the points of inspiration for this was actually taking a look at the dehumanized factory workers in THX 1138. You become a number. You become faceless. You don't have any individuality. And all that matters is that you're making machines. This is also the first time we've seen Ryder in a while. Has he been leading an underground resistance on the planet? Yeah, he's really trying to build a resistance. When the Rebels left, there was really very little. He's been a very busy man.

He's the mole for the Rebels, if you will, on Lothal, so he's trying to get any information, any intel, just any sort of inkling of what the Empire is up to, whether it be small or huge. It's also becoming clear that the Rebels have an ally in Imperial ranks. What can you tell us about that? No, it's funny. You can't be too obvious with these things, apparently. There's a dramatic irony in it. It's like, did we know people were going to figure out it was Calus? Yeah, we kind of figured.

But the fan community is such that unless it's super obvious, there's always going to be a point of counterpoint and debate about it. This is something we've been working towards for a few seasons, and that is showing that, yeah, absolutely there would be people in the Empire who were spies. What's awesome is we've been able to show how a character who you really think is evil is, well, maybe not as evil as you might think. And you begin to understand why they would turn.

They got into a fight hoping to try to make the galaxy a better place. However, it's not turning out that way. We get to see the inside of an Imperial facility. When designing a factory like that, do you give any thought to how all of it actually works? Yeah. The conveyor belt that the pieces of AT-ATs and TIE Fighters are on was designed to, if you wanted to have it move, it could move. There was a door or gangway raised on the wall above that moving monorail.

It didn't really get to do it in the episode because there was enough happening on the ground level that all of this extra business above would begin to get distracting. The secret TIE Fighter looks a whole lot like the TIE Defender, which has been around since the old TIE Fighter game. Is that the ship that we see here? Is that the Defender? It is the Defender. We were all itching to get the Defender into the show. We really wanted to make Thrawn

a tactical leader. In realizing that the Rebels are a growing threat, he's way ahead of the curve as far as planning for where they're going to end up. When he knows when he has the Defender ready and in mass production, just like Harris says in this episode, if they build this thing, we're in deep trouble. For those of us who remember playing the TIE Fighter game, it's a great ship. It's fast. It's got shields. It's got a

hyperdrive. It sort of evens the odds, and you don't need hundreds and hundreds upon them to defeat just a small number of Rebel starfighters. It evens the odds between the versatility of an X-Wing fighter and the limited capabilities of a TIE Fighter. Alright, there we go. So, TIE Defender, you know, making its return to Star Wars canon. Super cool. Very cool. Going back to a classic video game, like they were saying, TIE Fighter came out in the 90s, I believe.

Yeah. It was towards the end of the 90s. PC games at home are becoming the thing. Yeah. Purchased on Floppy. Honestly, that's probably true. Or like early, early CD. Oh, man. Yeah. What's cool about this one is Calus is more prominent as a hero figure as he's revealed to be Fulcrum. He's all over the place, man. He's popping up everywhere. Thrawn as well. The question must be asked. How likely is it that they would visit this factory on Lothal with all of the other stuff going on?

Yeah. That is one thing that this series kind of annoys me about. It always seems very convenient that Calus, or now we're seeing Thrawn as well, always seem to be at the location that the rebel heroes are at, even across different planets and systems. It makes it feel small, but I get they want that you're going to have characters that kind of grow together and earn this storyline. But if you think about it as a galaxy as a whole, it's pretty unlikely. Yeah. Yeah, it is. We saw

Morad die. That was kind of a surprise. Innocent farmer just burned to a crisp, blows up on the speeder bike. He was just rescued. And then... How did he even get into the factory as an employee in the first place? Because he was a prisoner. Yeah. And then the last we saw of him until he was working for the Empire. I think maybe he was kind of doing double dipping. Maybe he was working for the Empire.

I think he was working for the Empire, but then maybe when he went home, he would actually go to the rebel camp and kind of let them know all the secrets and stuff like that. Oh yeah, he was definitely a planter and a foreman. Man, I would have thought that the Empire would have a better system to recognize his face as a escaped convict. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of a comical death too. I mean, I gotta say. Even as serious as it was, I just laughed.

He doesn't want to get off because that'll blow his cover, but at the same time, if he sits there, he's just gonna die. So he just sits there, right? But his cover's blowing anyway, so it's like... I mean, his cover was blowing that it was found out. It's very obvious that it malfunctioned. It was his fault. As he tries to shut it down, Thrawn uses his iPad or his data pad and just turns it back on. Yeah. Nope. In his last moments, he's like, it just blows up. Oh man, I just had a laugh.

Yeah, I thought that was so funny. It just came across as so kind of awkward, you know what I mean? Oh man, yeah, and then Ezra and Kayden just have to stand there and let it happen. Even Kalos is kind of shocked. He's like, like, what happened? The ATSD that breaks down in the factory, man, that broke down so fast. It takes one step and it's like, boom.

He's like, alright, clearly the rebel guy, the rebel saboteur, if you will, did an awful job at masking the fact that these are sabotaged, right? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense because they wouldn't even get it out of the facility to get it somewhere for it to fail. Right, exactly. It makes no sense that that would be so instant of an effect, right? Yeah, the speeder bikes were definitely better because you have to get over a certain speed. So that makes more sense to me.

But yeah, the ATSD, whoever made that decision, that was a bad call. Yeah, that was a bad call. I was like, well, someone was like, did you look over the construction of this ATSD? He's like, yep, sure did. And then just crashes like, oh no, it's the other one. Yes, the next door one. Oh, man. There was something funny that also was said when they were standing around the campfire at the rebel base. You know, one of them, I think it was Sumas, more on Sumas. He was, or Sumar, sorry, not Sumas.

You know, he was like, yeah, there's this new guy that showed up. He's got red eyes or something. And all I could think of was just like, yeah, like, I don't know. For some reason, I could just picture him following that up with like, he seems a little loopy all the time. Was it really relaxed? You know, just kind of pale. A bit of an earthy scent that comes off of him. He's got the red eyes. Yeah. Thrawn. Thrawn, just this high imperial, high ranking.

Seeing Kallus' fulcrum reveal is expected, but also a welcome sight story to unravel. And, you know, that was cool. Do you think it should have been more of a surprise? Instead of us kind of getting it from the Sabine episode? Oh, you mean like slowly, kind of surely being revealed hint by hint? Yeah. Yeah, I think like there could have been something cool that came out of a movement like that. But then at the same time, I think we might hear be criticizing like,

oh, that came out of nowhere. Like, where the heck did that come from? So, you know, I think like, yeah, they play it. They played it in a way that like makes us kind of know early on. But at the same time, like for maybe a younger viewer again, which what this show is designed for. Maybe that's all they needed to kind of keep it a hint hint, but not kind of directly in your face sort of thing. Yeah, that makes sense. For the kids.

Yeah. Like you say, so it doesn't just feel like it's completely out of nowhere. I mean, it wouldn't be completely out of nowhere just because of the episode we have with Zeb on the planet. Yeah. But yeah, I can see what you're saying. Yeah. Slowly leading into it a bit more. There was something really... I was surprised by sorry. Oh, go ahead.

Go ahead. What I was surprised by is at the end when Thrawn is like, we have a mole and they're like trying to figure out who it is that I feel like Thrawn probably should have figured it out right away. Yeah. But maybe just because Kallus' ISB, it feels very unlikely because that's supposed to be the people who actually seek out the moles. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. It is interesting, isn't it? I don't know. I guess we'll see how he kind of

unravels it later. Maybe Thrawn knows and he just wants to see it play out or something. I kind of forget. I kind of forget. I think if I remember correctly the only people he trusts are Kallus and that woman that's there. And everyone else is potentially the mole. That's what happens until something obvious is revealed, I think. I can't remember. We'll find out as we watch farther into the season. Yeah. Yeah, we will. I got a really funny little audio snippet here. Let's take a quick listen.

I love how they want to make it look like- Here, I'll play it again. Hold on. We will. And thanks. Make for the east vehicle pool. You'll find a walker there you can escape in. Now, I just have to make this look convincing. Okay. Ezra! What? That is convincing. Yeah, but I was gonna do it. Well, if he's one of us now- I just thought, like, man, like, Ezra and Kanan, like, they're just such an unlikely kind of, like, duo. You know what I mean?

They sound like they're arguing like two kids on the playground. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you almost expect Kanan to, like, scold Ezra for just, like, you know, force-pushing him back through a bunch of glass and, you know, like, knocking him out. That's what would happen if- because, let's be honest, Anakin would have done that. Oh, 100%. Obi-Wan would have scolded him. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah. It would have been

something like that. But then, you know, it's like, no, but I was gonna do it. Yeah. They just really don't like that guy. That's pretty fun. Yeah, that was a good scene. I liked that. Yeah, yeah. That was good. I was just gonna say, the TIE Defenders revealed here as Thrawn's secret weapon against the Rebellion. This is something that he has pushed a lot of, you know, power towards rather than any other project like the Death Star or

whatever. And I think if I have- He knows about the Death Star. Well, vague memory serves me, if any. He's aware of that project and I believe he doesn't favorably think of such destructive, you know, weapons as anything special. Like, apparently, he's like, doesn't really- you know, to him, he's a tactician, right? So, he doesn't exactly, you know, he's a tactical guy. He doesn't exactly favor who's got the bigger gun around here, right?

Like, that's a very different way of thinking and how to fight a battle. So, his way of doing it is much more surgical. And his approach to the Rebellion is a lot more sort of strategy infused. He thinks, you know, if we have better fighters, because, you know, TIE fighters are fast but they kind of suck. If we have better fighters, maybe we can actually do some damage in the Rebellion without needing to do a lot as far as resources goes.

Now, anywhere they go, they're going to be up against quite the fight, right? One thing that with the TIE Defender I just find a little weird is why did they come all the way down to Thrawn and have to come up with this idea? Because it just seems so simple. Just make better ships. Yeah. I don't know. Do you remember in the Thrawn books, the new ones like in the canon, like whether or not the TIE Defender came up in those? Because I have a vague memory that they were part of... I'm sure it does.

I didn't actually finish that series. It just felt like it was dragging on a lot. I have an issue with a number of the new canon books because of that. I think it's because their hands are so tied, but they were thinking done simultaneously. You have to make sure it's not going to step on someone else's toes. I only ever read the first two, I think, but now there's a lot. There's five or something. There's six.

There's a trilogy that takes place kind of overlapping the Star Wars Rebels timeframe, and then there's one trilogy that takes place as a prequel sort of Thrawn trilogy, which is I think overlapping the prequels a little bit and then some. That's when Palpatine finds them, basically. Yeah. It's like the Chiss Ascendancy sort of rise to power of Thrawn within the Chiss Ascendancy and then his initial sort of meetings, I think, with Palpatine early on in his Imperial career, something like that.

Right. I need to read those two because I'm pretty far behind. Yeah. I'm sure that's going to become more and more relevant as Thrawn becomes a bigger character. Yeah, yeah, 100%. The TIE Defenders in this I think is the first or the second book.

I think it's the second book. He does use his TIE Defenders against the Grisks, which were an alien species drawn up for the second novel, which were supposed to, I believe if I'm not mistaken, supposed to kind of emulate the idea of the Yuuzhan Vong, like an alien species invasive to the known space that were from a different galaxy. It's funny how Yu slowly becomes canon again. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So the TIE Defenders did show up in the second Thrawn book and the second Thrawn book, I think, is set between the third and the fourth seasons of Star Wars Rebels. So if that gives you an idea for time frame, you know, the TIE Defenders, they're currently being produced somewhere. The Rebels are only just finding out about it and it won't be long until they're put to good use. Very interesting. I wanted to point out that actually both times I think we really see Thrawn in this episode.

We see a bunch of artwork around him and there's some cool Mandalorian art from, let's play Ancient Mandalore. If anyone wants to look it up, it's actually at the time code 15 minutes and 53 seconds. I think is roughly the best shot of it without anyone standing in front. It reminded me a lot of the old EU Mandalorian comics. I think it looks like if you remember the Mandalore who created the Darksaber, who was like the Jedi. It looks a lot like that, the artwork around that character.

Very medieval, you know, wearing the ponchos and got the sword out and the helmet's very sort of simple shaped, I guess. And then the artwork of the people around him, it's so bizarre looking. Yeah, it's very Dark Ages looking. Yeah, it's got some of that, but it's got that weird look where it's like you're looking at the side of someone's face, but you see both of their eyes like almost like Picasso. Right, yeah.

It is cool. It is cool how they managed to come up with sort of that type of art style within Star Wars Rebels, you know, to use as art. Right. Yeah, I think this is supposed to be like ancient Mandalorian art. I think so. I think so, yeah. It is neat. Yeah, it is neat to see and once again, just these animated shows really driving it home with expanding upon that lore of Mandalore. Now we've got so much lore for Mandalore. It's crazy how quickly it's grown.

Yeah, exactly. And they've done a really good job filling out the Mandalorian culture. It's interesting how it started with just some guy with cool armor who was just a bounty hunter. Yeah, exactly. And now it's like this whole planet with this deep culture of basically space vikings. Well, that's exactly, I mean, when we were talking to Jess from Boba Fett fan club, which we'll get her back on again. But yeah, she was saying that, how Boba's like,

he's the OG guy. He's the reason why they even have all that fan club in the first place because it celebrates him as a character but also really celebrates him as an origin point for sort of what's grown beyond him, including the, now there's an entire costume group called the Mandalorian Mercs that are dedicated to wearing Mandalorian armor and making it their own thing. They're basically the 501st of the Mandalore costuming group.

It's so cool to see just how much has come out of one single character and his background. No, so true. One thing I always liked about the Mercs is you get to design your own look unlike being like a Stormtrooper or a 501st, right? Like that look is established. Yeah, it can be like super makeshift. It can be, you know, like kind of whatever. I think the helmet needs to be of a certain caliber, but beyond that I think it's pretty much like

anyone's game. Well, I think we're kind of learning that even within the helmet there's a lot of wiggle room. As long as you look at it and you're like, oh, he's a Mandalorian, then I think you get the pass. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Well, that is it for that episode. Should we give some Pablo points or reviews? Let's do it. Alright. This one I'm going to give it .5 Pablo points. You know, it was it was okay.

I feel like there were some things that could have been a little different, but for the most part I enjoyed it. It just wasn't a standout for me. It wasn't great. You know, scraping by is good. Fair enough. I actually like this episode quite a bit, I would say.

Especially to me, the coolest part beyond what we talked about is just seeing how the Rebellion is kind of like really down in the trenches, like trying to sabotage a lot of the Empire and right down to the manufacturing level to try to give themselves an edge. To me, that was probably one of the

coolest parts. Yeah. Seeing these saboteur kind of angles from Rebellion because really when you watch the films, all you get is like they're like a guerrilla force army, but really they have insurgents kind of everywhere and it really just goes to show the Rebellion was a lot more thorough than we were led to believe. Yeah, that's a good point. It's a good point for sure. I'll give it a 1.5 I think. 1.5. Alright. Sweet. Awesome.

Alright. Cool, sir. Well, thank you for coming back on as always and we'll catch you in the next one. We'll see you out there. Keep flying. Alright, and thank you all for tuning in at home. We'd love a nice fresh five-star review if you can slap one of those down on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. That really does help us out a lot. It helps other people find the podcast and it helps us succeed.

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Next up, we do have a few more episodes of Rebels Talk before we hit Ahsoka, but we're going to try and get as many out before the two-episode premiere, mind you, of Ahsoka, which comes out in another two and a half weeks. That being said, you can reach us out. Find more updates from the podcast at our socials below in the description using the handle at SWEscapePodcast. Join the Discord, subscribe on YouTube, and we will see you in the next episode of Star Wars Escape Pod.

May the Force be with you.