Time to abandon ship! Oh no! Here we go! Can I persuade you to join us for a drink? It's a tradition. Here, here. Jar Jar, homie, my main man, quickly! Before the Separatists attack, get into the escape pod! Hey! This is escape! Then where's the pod? This is escape pod! Welcome back to Star Wars Escape Pod and another special guest episode with our co-host Blake. We have Dr. Kristen Noble on this week talking about her recently released book, One with the Force.
And we're going to be diving into all the inspirations, behind the force, behind what makes the force tick, I guess. You know, all the things that inspired George. You know, creating the force. And so many things to talk about there. So we'll dive in with Dr. Kristen Noble and get going on this. Another happy landing. How are you here? I am a manifestation of the force. A force that consists of two parts.
Living beings generate the living force, which in turn powers the wellspring that is the cosmic force. Show yourself. Can you? I cannot. My training was incomplete. All right. A little clip there from Star Wars The Clone Wars when Yoda talks to Qui-Gon on Dagobah. One of my favorite story arcs there. A lot of stuff about the force in that story arc. But I was thinking about that, you know, as we were going down the list of questions to ask you.
And that we're welcoming to the podcast this week Dr. Kristen Noble. So thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Yeah. It's a pleasure. And so cool to be talking about a book that you're writing. And just to kick things off, I guess, before we really dive into the meat of our conversation today. We just have some, like, light questions just to kind of get going, you know, for audiences. You know, listeners that might want to know a little bit about you.
So just a few small questions. So first thing is, like, just something I'm curious about. We're always curious about this one. But how did you find the podcast? That's a good question. Yeah. Honestly, just looking at different podcasts online. And, you know, I listened to a clip from you guys. And you seemed to have a nice vibe, good conversational feel to it. And then, of course, just when I do my particular pitch for my book and then being able to share that.
And then hearing whether the individual is right or wrong. Or whether the individual is receptive to those ideas. You know, obviously, that increases my desire to appear on any particular podcast. Perfect. Yeah. Thanks so much for that. Yeah. We feel honored, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. It's a huge honor to be reached out to. Normally, we're the ones kind of reaching out to other people and asking. But, yeah. Thank you so much for finding us and, you know, requesting us to host you on here.
Because, yeah. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known. So, yeah. Very cool. Thank you, guys. So, I'm assuming you're a Star Wars fan. You know, you're writing a book in relation to Star Wars. So, what makes you a Star Wars fan? How did you first kind of come into contact with this galaxy far, far away? And what makes you a Star Wars fan? Yeah. I've loved it from the beginning. I watched the original trilogy with my parents when I was a kid. That's how I was first introduced.
And I grew up in a family of meditators. We discussed philosophy around the dinner table. And we read books on it and stuff. That was just normal. That's how I grew up. And so, that gave me a lens when I watched the Star Wars movies. I could tell there were some very deep philosophical, spiritual principles in there. Not only Christian or Western principles, but also some very deep Eastern principles in there. So, that inspired me when I watched them. I felt like there was a lot of depth there.
And then, later on, I decided to explore it more systematically using my academic background. But I cultivated over time. Awesome. Awesome. Very cool. That's such a good insight. Because I feel like a lot of people, when they watch Star Wars, at least for myself, I guess, from my perspective, you can kind of get this sense of this depth of the Force and everything kind of going on behind the scenes.
It really feels like George put a lot of emphasis on trying to actually make it feel like it's a real living entity. There's all this spirituality and things around it. Yeah. Even if you don't pick on that immediately, you can kind of just feel that there's that detail behind the scenes, unlike a lot of stuff that maybe falls a little more flat. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What are some of your favorite Star Wars stories? I mean, having grown up with the original trilogy, there's so much now.
So, what's a standout for you, you know? As in a movie? As in almost anything. I mean, it's amazing having chats with so many people over the years now, their first coming to contact with Star Wars may have been a video game, or a book, or a comic, or an animated show now, or a live-action show, or anything like that, or a movie. So, yeah, what's a standout for you as like a number one? This is like, you know, the more recent... Peak Star Wars. Yeah, peak Star Wars for you.
What's peak Star Wars for you? I don't know. I'm a big fan of Return of the Jedi, to be honest. Nice. I felt like it just brought all the themes together of that series so well. Yeah. But, I mean, The Empire Strikes Back is a classic, too. So, probably those two. That's awesome. Return of the Jedi is my favorite original trilogy film. Yeah. Yeah. No, very nice. Yeah. I think we actually just talked about this. This is a recent podcast.
Yeah. Because I actually switched from Empire to Jedi to Empire began. You just go, can't figure it out. Yeah. Well, for a while there, I'm like, well, Jedi has both the space battle and the land battle. Yeah. But then, I've always been... When I was quite young, my favorite was the AT-ATs. So, I just go, can't figure it out. Yeah. Well, for a while there, I'm like, well, Jedi has both the space battle and the land battle. Yeah. Yeah. I just love that land battle so much. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
So, what kind of book is this writing that we're talking about this week, and who's it for? So, it's for general audiences, so you don't have to have any particular philosophical background or spiritual background or religious background to write it, to read it. It's just written for everybody. Yeah. And it's called One with the Force, 18 Universal Truths in Star Wars. So, it's looking at...
It's looking at some of the deep philosophical themes behind the Star Wars movies, drawing on stuff that George Lucas has talked about. He's elaborated quite a bit on some of the inspiration behind the Force and some of the philosophy behind the films, but then going deeply into both Eastern and Western traditions and how they line up with some of the concepts that we see illustrated in some of the key Star Wars scenes. Awesome. And with that goes a lot of the themes that come.
Kind of bundled into the parallels that George makes with the Force and those inspirations. What can you say about the kind of themes that this book kind of gets into? Great. Well, George Lucas, for starters, he acknowledged the fact that Eastern traditions have had a big influence on Star Wars, their ideas, for instance, in the Vedic tradition of ancient India.
So, it's a very similar parallel to the Force, to this all-pervading thing that's beyond the senses, that you can tap into, that you can even use. So, a lot of Eastern parallels there. But, ultimately, George Lucas had a universal perspective in mind when he created the Star Wars universe, and that's very clear from a lot of his comments. Do you think it would be useful to your audience? To hear the analogy of the blind man and the elephant, which George Lucas does refer to? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, for sure. Let's go for it. Okay, great. So, for those who may not have heard it, in this analogy, there are a bunch of blind individuals, and they want to know what an elephant is like. They've never experienced one before. And so, they come upon one, and each individual touches a different part of the elephant. So, one person touches its ear, and it says, oh, okay. So, an elephant is like a fan. It's flat and wide. And another one touches its trunk.
And says, oh, no, what are you talking about? It's more like a rope or a snake. It's long and flexible and narrow. Another one touches the leg, says, no, it's strong and sturdy like a tree. So, they're all accurately describing one part of the elephant, but they're inaccurately coming to the conclusion that that's the whole elephant.
So, this analogy has been applied to different religions and philosophies, that they're like different blind individuals who are accurately perceiving some aspects of life, but not seeing the whole picture, not seeing the whole elephant. So, George Lucas, he's referred to this analogy. He likes it. He agrees with it. And he very much had a universal perspective on things.
So, he wanted to get at what the whole elephant is like, not just to support this particular religion, that particular philosophy. So, anyway, that universal perspective really comes out when you're reading about some of the inspiration behind Star Wars, how George Lucas wanted to, he said he wanted to inspire young audiences.
This is a certain kind of spirituality, not necessarily to get them to join any particular organization or tradition, but to have some sense of some underlying truth, some universal truth that this shows up in many, many places. So, give them a glimpse of the whole elephant. Great. Wow. That is an interesting analogy. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely can see where it's coming from. Yeah. Yeah. Because from everyone's individual perspective, you only see what you see, right? Right.
Got to put all the pieces together to get the big picture. I see how that definitely works. Yeah. I think that is the ultimate goal that is applied to what George was doing. Totally.
Yeah. You know, it's interesting when you put it that way, for sure, because, you know, I always think of, now I know this is like, amongst Star Wars fans, this tends to be like a more controversial subject with whether or not, depending on what films you grew up with, and I'm curious to hear your opinion on this, having grown up with the first three films and then later having done his prequels. Right. Right.
Yeah. the minichlorians you know because those movies are the ones that we that we grow up with and and quite frankly i'm a big fan so uh you always count your own yeah i always i was like this idea that there's some ties to the physical you know and and i don't know i it's just um i've always never had a problem with it but uh what's what's your opinion about that and um is there anything in this book that might actually refer to that um yes not specifically but i will just say that
from um many eastern traditions from their perspective yes there is this universal consciousness but it's filtered through individual bodies individual nervous systems and so the state of your body body very much affects the state of your consciousness at any given time and so you know if you were to correlate having more midichlorians with having a particularly pure clear nervous system through meditation through philosophical uh study and all that um then then you can
definitely see a parallel there that some bodies some physiologies are better set up to support deeper experiences of this all-pervading reality yeah okay yeah that lines up with how the midichlorians communicate to the force you know like is that satisfactory answer you josh are you i'm satisfied all right i'm satisfied awesome um okay so um how do you how do you define the midichlorians and how do you define the midichlorians and how do you define
how do you define the midichlorians and how do you define the midichlorians and how do you define the midichlorians and how do you define the balance um in context of both star wars and the various religious traditions i know it's a weird it's a loaded question there but like um how would you define balance i guess in the in the grand scheme of things because the balance of the force is like a big uh conversation you know in star wars it's big
it's a big element within the story especially because you only hear it from the one side we were kind of referring to what we're talking about earlier yeah here from the jedi's perspective yeah so it's a big element within the story and it's a big element within the story yeah so it's a big element within the story and it's a big element within the story yeah so like based on the based on the the the real world you know inspirations here um like how would you define
the balance of the force you know what do you think george is is is getting at here having drawn off of you know real world stuff here sure um so i'll just mention that um in the last jedi there's actually an interesting conversation about balance between uh luke and ray um when he asks her to close her eyes and she's like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know what she feels and she starts talking about um life but also death and decay that feeds new life
and you see like the skeleton of an animal underground that's like nourishing the soil so it can give rise to new new life um so this idea that there's um there are opposing forces and there's a natural balance between them that has a lot of eastern parallels uh so in again the vedic tradition of ancient india um there are there's a force of creation there's a force of and their interplay drives the evolution of the universe and so again balance is a key theme here
between them if one of them is well for instance if you take the analogy of a forest fire a little forest fire may actually be helpful because it clears out some of the the underbrush um so it's a helpful uh application of a destructive force but if the the fire is completely out of control burns down the whole forest then you have a problem um or another analogy is if you have a um you want to build a beautiful house but there is a really old beaten up piece
of property uh building on that site you may need to bulldoze that that old building first before you can build a new house so there's a positive application of destructive forces and there's a positive interplay between creative and destructive forces in life but it does get out of hand when one of those forces becomes completely overshadows the other one and so um you know just destroying all the houses in a neighborhood that would be probably not useful yeah okay yeah that's
yeah that's a good that's a good way to put it um i think that's interesting see that in star wars but also in reality where you kind of see people gravitate towards one side or the other instead of seeing it as a whole so the jedi right as an example we're all just about the light side at least towards the end with the the fall of the jedi order yeah they kind of lost their way of the balance right which you see qui-gon trying to get back to you
yeah totally i mean like you know it's it's interesting because like i think a lot of people look at the jedi in that in that trilogy um as as like you know the good the good guys and and but really it's like they've lost their way right this is like the downfall of that whole that whole you know dogma right and and it's i think in some ways it's like it is the force kind of balancing what's going on in the galaxy right like you know it's a loud
this evil to rise and yet it's created this chosen one to then later bring balance but first which he does but it's not how they're expecting just how they expect it yeah yeah yeah they all have to be wiped out i don't know i mean like it's yeah it is interesting how all things kind of come to a you know balance in the end but um uh but yeah yeah interpretation i think yeah we keep going back to an interpretation just becomes such a key element to a lot of this stuff oh for sure yeah um so um
what uh what is the significance of of intuition and and non-attachment in both the jedi philosophy and in eastern spiritual practices or or or in christianity would be perhaps like monks right um like what's um what what kind of things can you talk about that you've like written about that kind of relates to that uh with how how people know the jedi to be with their big no attachments rule sure um well if you don't mind i'll do intuition first and then non-attachment
um so intuition um that theme comes up in a lot of the star wars movies um just in the basic phrase search your feelings um it comes up um when oh when leia um she she realizes that luke is her brother and she says somehow i've known that all along so there's this this theme of um oh yes that's the other one um even just the phrase i have a very bad feeling about this in all of these cases in all of these cases um the speakers they're not doing some sort of intellectual analysis
like um you know this plus this plus this equals this outcome that's why i come to the conclusion it's a very direct insight a gut reaction to a situation it's giving them a subtle level of insight that um most people on an everyday basis don't have um so intuition is also a big theme in many eastern traditions um it's it's also to be something that develops as one grows towards higher states of consciousness
um and then you also do see similar themes in western traditions um in the bible it refers to insight um various individuals in the uh the bible are said to have very great insight into the nature of things so it's like a very subtle level of the mind that goes beyond just sheer rational thinking yeah awesome well thanks for that um um I, I, you know, I've got, I've got all these questions kind of, they, they don't all like kind of flow into each other.
So forgive me if they seem a little bullet pointy, but, um, but yeah, we, we had a bit of limited time to kind of scan through what you had, uh, uh, what you'd provided us here. So, um, you know, it's, uh, it's great to, to ask some of these questions. Um, so sorry if they feel a little like, like out of, out of nowhere. Not at all. Although I realized they didn't answer about a non-attachment. So I can make a quick comment on that. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, so from an Eastern perspective, non-attachment, that again is a result of higher states of consciousness that are cultivated through things like meditation. So for instance, from a Vedic standpoint, through meditation, one can gradually, naturally cultivate an inner state of peace and even bliss that's there. That's just a permanent reality, not through effort, but just through as a natural outcome of certain meditation practices.
And so when you have very deep peace and bliss in your mind, you can gradually cultivate that inner state of peace and bliss that is the ultimate goal. So, um, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so attached to what goes on on the outside. You know, you're going to have some preferences over others, some likes and dislikes. Sure, that's fine.
But there's just, you're so rooted in this peace and this bliss that can be cultivated. Um, you're so rooted in that, that there's not so much attachment to outcomes. So I see that as similar to a lot of the Star Wars films when they deal with attachment. Um, obviously the Jedi, they don't wear fancy clothes or anything like that. And that's one way the theme comes up.
But there's also quite a bit of content on attachment and its harmful effects in the prequel trilogy when Anakin is so attached to Padme, to his wife, um, surviving that he's willing to just do anything to keep her alive. And, you know, obviously I think.
Having a connection to one's loved ones is a healthy and wonderful thing, but, you know, to absolutely throw out your moral compass and just do anything to try to achieve a particular outcome, that would be one of the harmful effects of attachment. So I think that's a big theme in the prequel trilogy. Right. Yeah. So true. It's always good to have that kind of duality, I think. Right. Kind of like you want to have attachment, but not to overdo it. Oh, for sure. Yeah. It's on Star Wars.
We kind of see the extremes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Like, again, there's that theme of imbalance there, you know, especially, especially in Anakin. Yes. I appreciate you talking to us about this just because I don't think I've actually looked at Star Wars through that specific lens before. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Um, so how, uh, how would you interpret the themes of death and immortality in Star Wars in relation to Eastern beliefs? Uh, a lot of similarities there.
So, you know, in Western traditions, or I should say in Western modern culture, um, death is seen as a very negative thing. And I don't just mean tragic death or young death, but I mean, even when people have lived a long and fulfilling life, it's still, we see that as a very negative thing. We see it as a complete end, a cessation. It's to be voided at almost any cost. And it's just interesting because the Jedi don't have that perspective. They talk about death as being a natural part of life.
Um, Yoda says, twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. That is the way of things, the way of the force and, you know, Anakin's attempts to circumvent his wife's death, um, that's leads him down to the dark side. So, so the Jedi have this perspective that, um, you know, it's a natural part of life, but then they also, of course, uh, have a belief in immortality. And so it's interesting that the Sith who are the ones who go to great lengths to avoid death for very unnatural means.
They're not the ones who gain individual immortality. It's actually the Jedi who discovered that secret. Um, so that even though they're not clinging to this physical body, this moral life at the same time, they become, they learn how to become four spirits and to communicate with the living Jedi and all that. Um, so, you know, death is not seen as the ultimate end. There's a continuation after death.
Um, you know, and, and Yoda says to, uh, rejoice for those around you who transform into the force. So he's not even just talking about the Jedi. He's. Saying that literally everything that dies, it goes back to its source source. It goes back to the force. Um, all of those ideas are very much paralleled in Eastern traditions. Um, Eastern traditions also see death as just part of a natural evolution and a natural cycle.
Uh, some of them refer to reincarnation specifically, which is not really represented in the star Wars universe. But, um, they also talk about things like merging with, with the source of all things, merging with that universal. Consciousness, um, and a continuation after death. So death is not seen as the ultimate end in Eastern traditions either. Yeah. I, um, I do wish that, uh, we, we read a book, uh, not to, well, it was about maybe a year ago or something. It was called shadows of the Sith.
Do you remember that one brought it up a few times? Yeah. There was this really interesting, there was this really cool sequence that I just love. And I wish that, um, that they had put this in the. The later films, like in the sequel films. Um, but, uh, it's a scene in which, in which Anakin presents himself to Luke in his first forced ghost, uh, form for the first time since he saw him on indoor.
And, uh, it's in a moment of peril when he has like being surrounded by these, like these nine kind of hooded, dark figures, uh, very weird sort of, uh, obscure stuff, you know, like, uh, Like what were they again? I'll try it. They were like from the scene with Anakin, they were like almost as if they were, they were basically, um, the, the ring race, you know, from Lord of the Rings. Anakin as a forced ghost was able to fight them, but he had to give up his ability to appear.
Yeah. So, uh, forced ghost form. Yeah. So how they did it was they explained, so they provided this action sequence as a way of. Yeah. So he shows up in this like beam of light and like, uh, eradicates all these things that are about to that kill Luke. It's a lot of Aragorn, isn't it? It's a bit like, yeah, it's a bit like, yeah, yeah, a bit like that.
And, uh, he uses almost the last of his ability to, to, to, uh, I guess manifest a physical iteration of himself in, in the, uh, through the force, right? Like how Ben appears to, to, to Luke and Yoda appears to Luke and stuff. So he gives up the last of his power to do that, to save him. And that's the main reason I think why we don't see him, you know, in the sequel films. And that's sort of the, the, the backdoor answer that they give for that.
But, um, I mean, if you ask me, I think they just still were in this period of time where they just didn't want to involve, um, involve those actors in those films at that point. But now that seems to be over, which is nice. But, um, but, uh, I mean, what's, what, what's your, um.
Yeah. If you can make any kind of connection to that, like, I mean, they, they introduced something to the Canon, which is this idea that, uh, this physical, uh, representation, you know, this re-manifestation through the force of them showing up to people in the physical world, um, and then that being kind of like a limited ability in some ways, like, is there any kind of connection there to any sort of.
Um, Eastern related, um, belief, uh, or is that just a, a, a product of the fictional story? Just give me one second. I need a drink here. Sure. Sure. No problem. Sorry. I didn't want to do that while you were talking, I was afraid it would be a distracting background noise. Um, it's an interesting question. Um, nothing comes to mind specifically. Again, there is this idea of reincarnation. Yeah. Reincarnation.
So taking on many bodies and then eventually reaching enlightenment, reaching higher states of consciousness, and then no longer needing to take on bodies. Uh, but in terms of specifically being a ghost or a spirit, I'm offhand, I'm not thinking of anything. Okay. So that, that, that's just a star Wars thing then. Sounds like it. I think so. Maybe the last transition. Maybe that question could have been shorter. It was a little long winded. I'm not going to say anything. Um, okay.
So what, what, what, um, uh, can, can you explain the significance of reincarnation? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you explain the significance of the, uh, the noble eight fold path in relation to the Jedi's moral code? It's a good question. It's a lot to unpack right there. Um, yeah. Yeah. Sorry.
It's like for anyone listening who was like, you know, trying to get an idea of perhaps what, what this book is about and, you know, maybe, maybe feel free to summarize it in, in short, but, uh, just in general, kind of hitting the mark there somehow.
Sure. Um, I mean, just broadly speaking, uh, many different religious and philosophical traditions put tremendous emphasis on knowledge, the value of gaining knowledge, intellectual knowledge that helps you, uh, live better, that helps you evolve, evolve towards higher states of consciousness. So that would be what you just mentioned would be the Buddhist approach to that in, um, different, different techniques for spiritual development. Um, and you know, I don't know if I'd see.
And one, one correspondence in all eight in the, of those steps in the Star Wars universe, but certainly the Jedi put a lot of emphasis on acting in the most virtuous way they can in, in evolution and just trying to fulfill their full potential as human beings. So I guess those are some broad points I would say. Awesome. Yeah. Okay. That summarizes it. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Thank you.
Um, I'm just, I'm just very curious how, how much research, um, did you do to, uh, to like, look into George's background of. Yeah. What kind of research George himself did before actually coming to the end of the script, which will be filmed. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like what kind of research did you do into George that he did research?
Well, with regards to my, uh, research about George, um, yeah, I looked at a range of Star Wars books and, you know, just anytime he started talking about the inspiration behind the force, anytime he elaborated on that topic, I looked at those books. I looked at his quotes, you know, to make sure there wasn't, this wasn't a matter of me projecting things onto the movies that these were very much, um, the ideas that he intended to bring out.
And that became very clear, very quickly based on a lot of different sources, just times where he's discussed at length, some of the inspiration behind the films behind the force. You know, he put a lot of thought into that. Um, as for him, he was influenced by a range of, of traditions, um, and, and specific influences, um, you know, he, he composed the, the original Star Wars script when he was living in San Francisco.
So that's an area that was very much influenced by new age spirituality, which a lot draws quite a bit from Eastern philosophy. So in that way, just through osmosis, he was exposed to all these ideas. Um, but, um, also the, uh, Gary Kurtz, the producer for some of the Star Wars movies had a background in comparative religion and specifically a lot of Eastern traditions. He disposed of some of these ideas.
Um, but, um, also the, uh, Gary Kurtz, the producer for some of the Star Wars movies, had a background in comparative religion and specifically a lot of Eastern traditions. So, you know, we need some sort of basis of these concepts here in the context of the history. Yeah. And also, uh, George Lucas learned the transcendental meditation technique, which comes from India. So it, it comes from the Vedic tradition. Um, and when one learns that technique, they all fall into it.
Sometimes it's, it's good. It's world- records are, are all written. Yeah. Also, they learn a whole bunch of the principles behind it. So, you know, in many different ways, he was exposed to Eastern principles, and we very much see that play out in his films. At the same time, again, he had this universal perspective. He's referred to himself as a Methodist Buddhist or a Buddhist Methodist at different times.
Again, just showing this meeting point between East and West where, you know, I think culturally he was definitely influenced by Methodism and by Christianity. But he also had this interest in the Eastern traditions, and Buddhism was one of those. Yeah, interesting. It's actually very interesting to see how it all kind of comes together.
It sounds like George just said, like, the right place at the right time for all these ideas to just come together and manifest in what we now know as Star Wars. Yeah. Yeah, and, yeah, for sure. And, you know, having a lot of influence from fantasy of his time as a kid, you know. Right, with Flash Gordon and stuff. Well, that as well, but, I mean, on a more deep level, I'm sure Lord of the Rings also plays a huge part in his childhood, you know, like growing up with that very deep fantasy world.
And, you know, having that be a very, like, you know, Christian Catholic story, you know, at the root is also probably ever present in his, you know, in his... Psyche? Yeah, yeah. What really caught me... My interest of the last part you're talking about there, I had no idea that Gary Kurtz would have had that sort of influence on it. I'm curious where you came across that information and just, like, maybe a little more detail on that.
So, in the book I wrote, Lucas was exposed to these Eastern traditions in part by Gary Kurtz, the producer of the first two Star Wars films. Kurtz had a background in comparative religion as well as in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Native American teachings. He discussed these topics at length. With Lucas, recommending philosophical changes to the early drafts of the first Star Wars screenplay.
Yes, that was from an online article called The Religious Affiliation of Director George Lucas by a group called Adherence. And I have a link to it for anyone who wants to check out the details there. Yeah, sure. We can just share that in the bottom. Yeah. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, it's always interesting hearing about, you know, part of the reason why we ask questions is just, like, I guess there's so much... I mean, there's a lot out there about George. But...
There's certainly less about the other people in his life that played an influence over his creative output, right? Yeah, that's what caught my ear, too, because you don't really hear about the other people that helped George develop. No, yeah, like, you almost never hear about his ex-wife. And you almost never hear about Gary all that much or other people. Or many other unnamed people, I'm sure. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Like, I wish there was more about Rick McCallum during that 90s period through the 2000s, too. Because, I mean, he was, like, a big producer on those three films. And, you know, I always think that, you know, it's like, what other people kind of played some sort of creative influence out of, you know, where he took his story? And, you know, George is a pretty stubborn guy. So, like, it takes a pretty special person to be able to have that kind of influence over him. Yeah, because...
Yeah. From what you're sharing here, it sounds like Gary probably had a huge influence on what we now know of as The Force. Yeah. Yeah. So, thank you for answering the question. Because, yeah, you know, it is... Yeah. It always makes us curious. You know, just like... I'm going to look into this more, I think. Yeah. Whose is it? Whose is Inner Circle? Go for it. Well, you're probably already familiar with the fact that he was influenced by Joseph Campbell. Are you familiar with that?
Yeah. Yeah, that, too. Yeah. Right. Of course. For anybody who... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if you want to enlighten the audience on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For anybody who doesn't know Joseph Campbell.
Joseph Campbell was a comparative mythologist, so he looked at the mythologies from lots of different religions and philosophies, and he saw some very strong common themes, and so he wrote about that, and in particular, he talked about the hero's journey, so this whole series of steps that take place in the storyline of any individual hero, which you see a lot in different movies.
And then George Lucas was so inspired by these ideas that he very consciously and intentionally brought them into his work. And I think it's really interesting to see how this story is related to his first Star Wars screenplay. And indeed, if you line up the hero's journey next to the script of the original Star Wars screenplay, there's a very clear correspondence in the themes of the hero's journey.
Mm-hmm. And it's cool how George kind of stacked it as well, where there's a hero's journey with any hero's journey, because A New Hope itself is a hero's journey, and then the original trilogy is a hero's journey. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. It is interesting. It is interesting.
And I've seen a piece of fan art online where they... taken the the there's like a visual guide to the the hero's journey and they have like replaced all the little areas where there would be like some text or something like that on this like kind of circular kind of map thing and they've replaced it with like little cartoon star wars characters and like a little thing from the story um to like show where it would be on like the yeah yeah yeah
to show where it would be in that in the hero's journey kind of thing right so yeah it's uh yeah it plays it plays a big part um let's see how how does the concept of the force in star wars relate to uh more like western beliefs like with you know perhaps like christian understandings of of god and and uh like how like what what can you say about that um it very much corresponds with biblical descriptions of god being something that's
omnipresent um so that's a theme in certain biblical passages that that god is everywhere god pervades everything that's very similar concept um to god i mean and even in the bible it says um something along the lines of um he god so he is not far from any one of us for in him we live and move and have our being it's a very similar concept there and also has a lot of eastern parallels to the divine being something not just human like not just a you know a man with
you know a very glorified man if you will with particular desires and laws and all that but but um in this much more abstract sense of something that's all pervading uh just a divine that that's everywhere yeah i noticed uh in your book you have a a credit at the front to uh to the niv so um i just wondered like i mean it maybe it maybe it might be a lot maybe it might be you know just a few things but um i guess you've uh you've you know referenced a lot
from from uh the new international version in in your book right uh yes so for uh your audiences because they won't have seen the structure of my book uh the first part goes very deeply into eastern themes and then the second part that focus broadens and it looks at some additional eastern traditions like i mean the first part is largely about the vedic tradition of ancient india because there are some very very deep parallels there but in the second part it goes into eastern traditions
like buddhism and dharmakaya ism and sikhism but it also goes into judaism christianity islam and even to native american and first nations teachings because they have a similar idea to the force as well usually referred to as the great spirit um and so in my research i drew on all these different traditions uh the reason there's a specific reference to the christian bible is just for copyright reasons that that certain certain sources are more more carefully copyrighted than others so in that
case they said well if you quote over x number of verses that's fine but you have to include an extra uh notice gotcha okay actually didn't know you need to do that i didn't know that either yeah um what what kind of what kind of things can you say in your book about uh about fear and inner peace i mean that those are two very common themes through star wars and and uh something that i think the jedi struggle with a lot is is
combating fear and and struggling to find inner peace so anakin is a prime example right anakin is a prime example of that and luke is a prime example of of having to combat fear right and and i just yeah i think um yeah what like what what would you say about that that you've written about sure um i would say that it relates strongly to the idea of meditation uh so we do see the jedi meditating in various scenes like in the the
um original movie in the prequel trilogy i should say in the phantom menace um qui-gon temporarily pauses and meditates in the middle of a fight and so i think that's an instance where he's going inward he's finding that inner peace and then he's able to come back back and combat his opponent from a much more settled state of a mind and there are other scenes as well where the jedi meditate usually in the prequel and the sequel trilogies um but even in the original
trilogy this idea of of using the force tapping into the force um the way they do that is um they go beyond the senses um like for instance when when uh luke destroys the death star he right before that he closes his eyes he turns off his target um his targeting device on his computer so he's letting go of reliance on the senses he's going inward and from that basis he intuitively senses exactly when he needs to release his torpedo to destroy the death star
um so there's just a lot of emphasis on tapping into the force on gaining inner peace through that and that would be i think the way to combat fear certainly that has a lot of parallels to eastern traditions that um when the mind can transcend surface levels of thought go into deeper and deeper levels of thought find the source of thought find a level of of uh of the mind that is very peaceful very deep very undisturbed and then the more one thinks about it the more
does that the more that one can draw that out into their everyday activities and so um in the upanishads that's an ancient vedic text it says um certainly fear is born of duality so in other words being completely caught up in the duality of our modern life um light and darkness or or all these opposites that govern everything that happens and so by bringing the mind through meditation to a very unified simple level of awareness a level of oneness um and by by
repeatedly dipping into that and bringing it out into life one is much better anchored to deal with situations and one doesn't revert to fear so easily yeah i've always liked that scene where luke turns off his target computer is to me it's always been like uh um a very simple act of faith you know like just how he listens to that little voice in his head with ben you know you know let go luke and uh you know with with the qui-gon scene i love how you mentioned that because um
um you see such stark contrast between the jedi and the sith and that's in that moment and it gets overlooked a lot but when when when qui-gon is like kneeling down to meditate in the just like in the moment like in this this battle that could consume his you know his entire life you know and and um i guess you know ultimately it's the end of him but like he's like weirdly at peace in this moment of of of chaos and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and
and in balance right and he's taking a moment to try to refine that piece yeah he's taking a moment to find it right and and but i love how it like contrasts with just this very thin laser wall and you see the opposite of him on the other side of that wall being a sith lord stewing in his rage yeah building anger you know because that's where his strength is that's where he gains his strength that's where he gains his power is like you know on the opposite end of this
of this like thing of this like uh of this imbalance right and uh yeah it's it's it's a it's a cool kind of physical physical representation you know um yeah very nice very nice to um get the i i think that's why star wars is such a cool set of like cool movies like there's so much visual storytelling in those movies that is unlike so many other movies that there's always this depth to everything yeah there is there's a lot
yeah there's a lot of depth like you could you could watch star wars on on on mute or without dialogue and just have the music and have this the visuals and the music tell the story that that that that you need right like you get almost everything out of that like it's really the strength is not necessarily in the dialogue of those movies it's it's in the visual storytelling um most of them um yeah i think you you would get a large portion of for sure yeah yeah uh so in
what ways does your book uh just just always sorry we already already went into this immortality discussion um what what role does uh the concept of right and wrong play in both in both star wars and and teachings sure um so i'll just say first that from a vedic perspective again that's ancient indian um right action is evolutionary action so from a vedic perspective uh the purpose of life is for us to grow and to evolve towards higher state
consciousness to reach our full potential as human beings and so actions that promote that goal actions that are evolutionary actions that help us expand in our awareness and also actions that help others do the same those would be seen as right actions um anything that that inhibits that process would be seen as wrong actions you can use the analogy of a river it's like there's a river and it's flowing towards an ocean of truth of fulfillment of our full potential and so it's
canoes on that river and the river is going to keep flowing in that direction because that's the ultimate nature of life from a vedic perspective but we are individual beings with our own free will and so we can paddle with the current or against it we can get stuck in little eddies little snags along the way um but i think that idea of right action being evolutionary action works very well with the star wars universe as well um you know the i think the jedi are trying
to to grow and to expand to reach their full potential as human beings you know to be able to face even extremely difficult situations and still handle them in an honorable way and i think the siths have less emphasis on that um of course in western traditions there's a lot of emphasis on right and wrong uh the duality of that um i just think the the eastern perspective brings some nice nuance to that concept yeah it's actually very interesting
to see just comparing it directly to jedi and sith because jedi always try to flow with the force and sense where the force wants to go whereas the sith is what you know why they get the yellow eyes and everything is they're intentionally trying to manipulate the force to do exactly what they want yeah so it's interesting you know to see where that that that pulls from it's a great point yeah yeah it's always um it's always i
think recently we well we reread the book darth plagueis and it's a fascinating book with with lots of insights and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and an insight into how these sith lords commune with the force you know how how they do their thing because in the films we get a lot of the jedi perspective but uh this this particular book is not only is it probably one of the best star wars books i think
we've we've ever read but um but it really catches you from you know you you see it through the through this other angle through this other lens of of um how the sith operate and and how they look at things and uh yeah it's interesting to see the the the된 and uh the migrant leaders of the Habsburg how they how they look at the force as like in a different way it is an ally still for them because they still it's where they draw their strength it's where they draw their strength still it's
just it's just different right it's just a very very different way and they're very they're very selfish people and very uh very angry people you know um looking inward instead of looking out yeah exactly yeah so uh as far as as far as star wars goes i mean like in the films especially i one of the reasons why return of the jedi such uh it was such a good favorite movie of mine is that there is this theme of uh forgiveness like at the very end you know there is this
redemption with luke and his and his father and i think you know what what kind of things would you say about uh you know citations you've made about compassion and forgiveness you know and drawing parallels to to star wars there um yeah so redemption is a big theme that i talk about and obviously that's a major theme in western traditions huge theme in christianity of course uh but you also see it in eastern traditions um from an eastern standpoint redemption would be the cultivation of higher
states of consciousness or for a state that's beyond sin if you want to use that word that's beyond that darkness and it's interesting because in those eastern traditions they teach that the the truth is that there is a greater state of consciousness and there is a greater state of self of every person is something that's beyond any um destructive things they do in their life there's there's a true self that transcends all of those negative actions that they might have
engaged in and that that works very nicely in parallel to darth vader and also to um kylo ren where um the the jedi that they encounter they all bring up this point that no actually this isn't your true self your your true self you need to get back to your true self so that that's a big theme in eastern traditions as well that uh due to stress due to ignorance we can do things that are harmful but if we can get beyond those limitations in our mind in our awareness if
we can evolve through meditation for other practices if we can get back in touch with our true self then we'll very naturally not do those things and we'll very naturally achieve redemption yeah there's a lot of truth to that even just taking to my own life yeah i just went to a very stressful place and i'm like i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that and i know um there's a there's a lot of i guess lack of of joy and stuff just
from the hard time i've been through and kind of try to get back to where it was before that yeah yeah yeah wow um yeah i uh i mean do you have any do you have any other questions blake i guess i'm just curious how long um you worked on this novel for because this is a lot of information you had to look across a lot of different resources yeah how long did all this together yeah thank you um it took a few years off and on i was teaching
um and then i would work on this when i wasn't teaching um so yeah it it it took a while but it was a fun project for sure you know on the one hand i'm really passionate about the the philosophy and the spirituality and on the other hand it's just really fun to have an excuse to go explore a bunch of stars and geek out about that stuff with folks like you so you know it was yeah well i'm glad you enjoyed it and i'm also very glad that you took the time to put some of
this together because i think a lot of us had a sense that george had reached out to a lot of these different places and a lot of inspiration but it's nice to finally see a direct comparison to a lot of these different uh cultures and religions stuff and see just kind of where it all connects together yeah uh you know it's also such a pleasure to have a you know a doctor on who you know i know you've spent a lot of time on this and i'm really excited to be able to
many years in your in your field of education you know probably studying this stuff so you know to have that that level of insight um and uh you know connecting plugging plugging those things into star wars is very cool earlier this year i think it was we we had um a previous guest who returned uh dr jess tompkins who wrote a psychology related book on on the mandalorian and book of boba fett and um very very interesting to hear
that perspective of like psychology plugged into star wars in these characters and stuff you know just like things that like most people wouldn't like that aren't in that field of education and knowledge you know things that you're like oh cool like you know it was like making these yeah you know have the perspective to kind of see things at a deeper level just from their own yeah just like in a different way experience and um research and stuff right exactly
oh well thank you no it was fun for me to share yeah yeah thanks thanks so much um so uh i'm i'm just curious just as we close up here um where can people find your book and and uh you know uh in general like how can they get a copy yeah it's available sure it's available on uh multiple platforms so it's available on amazon but also barnes and noble bookshop and uh books a million so all of those a lot of people just
get it from amazon but it's available on the other platforms as well and um yeah do you want me to give them my website address or were you gonna do that uh yeah no feel free and i'll repeat it at the end yeah okay um yeah so to follow me or for links to where my book is sold you can go to my website that's krista noble.com so k-r-i-s-t-a-n-o-b-l-e.com awesome perfect thanks thank you so much and uh uh yeah i guess uh you know we'll be once
now that we have a bit more time uh afterwards you know i'll be going through it a bit more thoroughly but uh yeah um yeah i definitely encourage all our audience uh to to check that out if there's a student in school who's listening to our show and and checking out this book is there a class they might be taking that they can you know refer to your book for you know information on things um sure um i mean a world religions class certainly if they're taking anything about eastern tradition
there would definitely be subjects that come up there um if there were a class on um films that's also a possibility yeah great yeah my wife took an eastern eastern religions class um a few years ago so yeah and she found she found it very interesting um but yeah i guess uh i could have referred this book if uh if it came out a bit sooner uh so yeah there you go um perfect thank you so much to uh uh dr krista noble thank you so much we'll uh we'll uh we'll be in touch
and um thanks so much for joining us thank you no thank you so much oh thank you so much i had a great time all right a big thank you to our audience for tuning in a big thank you to uh to our co-host blake and uh we will uh see you in a week and um uh just a reminder to our audience to check out all the links in the description down below uh and uh for those uh for the website krista noble.com any other socials are down there may the force be with you and we'll
see you in the next episode of star wars escape pod