My Blue Heaven with Andrew Davies

Greetings and welcome to Stamper Cinema, the film discussion podcast where you choose it, I watch it, and we discuss it. As always, I'm your host. My name is Andrew. Thank you very much for joining us. In this week's episode, we have another Andrew on the show. That would be Mr. Andrew Davis. And he has chosen quite the great selection for us. We are going to be covering My Blue Heaven, which is a 1990 Steve Martin Rick Moranis comedy about the mafia meets suburbs.

I love this movie. I've been a huge fan of this movie for many, many years. Now, it's kind of, you know... developed a little bit of a cult following over the years. I don't think it really kind of lit up the box office when it first released. But so if you haven't seen it, that's OK, because it's amazing. But to give you a little background on the movie, it stars Steve Martin. as Vinny Antonelli, who's a loud, stylish ex-mobster who's currently living in witness protection program.

and kind of like trying slash failing to go straight in middle America. And Rick Moranis plays the uptight FBI agent who is, you know, trying to keep him out of trouble.

And it's your classic odd couple dynamic that turns into comedy gold, quite frankly. But here's the twist on this movie where it gets really interesting. My Blue Heaven is actually... loosely albeit based on a real life story of the mobster turned informant henry hill now if that name sounds familiar it should because it's the same guy whose life inspired goodfellas and and

fact, the screenwriter of this movie, Nora Ephron, was married to the author of Wiseguy, Nicholas Pelleggi, and both of those films were written side by side. So in a way, My Blue Heaven is kind of like the comedic cousin, if you will, to Goodfellas, because it's the same source, but totally different vibe.

And again, the movie didn't blow up at the box office, but, you know, it's found its audience over time. But, you know, Steve Martin's performance did get a lot of recognition when it did come out just for being kind of. of kind of uh odd and you know it is extremely extremely charming so i i can't stress enough like how excited i am to talk about this movie so

And so, yeah, grab yourself a pastel suit and join Andrew and I as I break down this underrated comedy gem. Again, Andrew, what's going on, man? Thank you for hopping on the show. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and talk about a very silly movie, which I think we both love, but not a lot of people probably know about is my instinct. It's kind of crazy. The movie, you know, my blue heaven for those that...

Somehow just found this episode randomly and didn't look at the show notes or the title of this. We're going to be covering the 19, I guess, 1991 film, My Blue Heaven, starring Rick Moranis and Steve Martin and a plethora.

Really, really great talent. But before we get into it, obviously I want to chat a little bit about you, find out a little bit about what it is that you do, and kind of go from there. So who is...

Andrew Davies. Yeah, so I was born and raised in Philadelphia. And as we're recording this, we just... won the Super Bowl, so the city is riding a high. I grew up here with my family and ended up... going to school outside of Boston, ended up in New York City, and really my life passion has been finding improv in theater. And I really did theater starting in high school.

in philadelphia doing the music man was my first musical production which i actually see connections with this movie and the music man and when i was in new york after college really finding improv really um helped me to see myself differently to see life differently and so it's kind of been my mission for the last 20 years to really help other people see improv as a way to practice being a better person

being a better partner, family member, employee, all different arenas. And that's kind of led me in my different projects. And so my work is using theater and improv and interactive programs in different ways so i have a group called the bible players that's a jewish comedy team and we travel to like schools and camps and synagogues using improv and comedy as a way to teach Jewish values and practice Jewish values. And then I have a group called characters, which are.

theatrical walking tours in New York City and now Philadelphia. So we have about five tours in New York and two in Philadelphia where an actor and a guide work together and the actor changes costumes throughout the tour and plays different characters and interact.

with the group to kind of engage more with individual stories with them. And then finally, I have a group called Artly Working, which is improv in the workplace, really working on making stronger teams and happier people. And that's really the goal. is changing company culture and helping people to find joy and productivity and a new sense of connection at work. And so all my projects are very different, but also very similar. And that's kind of my work.

Yeah, I mean, you said a lot of things that I found really fascinating, but just because you're talking a little like...

You know, it's like my brain usually goes when I hear like improv. I'm thinking like the groundlings and things like that. But, you know, you're you're talking about an approach that's, you know, very much kind of, you know, work related. So I'm just kind of like what. How does that translate? Like, you know, I'm just kind of intrigued by that. So, you know, as far as like improv and theater and...

translating that over into the workplace. And obviously, I want to talk about the Jewish component as well, but all of it's really fascinating and just a different angle than I've ever really thought of improv in that sense.

Yeah, you know, studying improv in New York and the Groundlings are great. I studied at the Magnet Theater, which is one of the kind of three big schools in New York. There's the Upright Citizens Brigade and the Pitt, the People's Improv Theater as well. And I think for me... lot of the lessons I was learning in improv and being on a team, I was just finding them to be.

Wildly useful throughout my life. Like one of the things I think you really practice in improv is being less afraid of failure. Right. Because you're constantly creating something new. You are constantly creating amazing scenes, amazing stories and.

Terrible scenes and terrible stories and forgettable things. And you learn to be less precious with your own ideas and to be able to throw things out there. Right. And I think so often for people like in the workplace context, there's really a fear of putting yourself out there. There can be a fear of.

trying something very different, trying something very new, even suggesting something on a team, right? Whether it's an ad campaign idea or a marketing idea, or even just like a team bonding trip, like let's all do karaoke. saying that might feel scary and i think for me improv can be great practice in trying things that feel high stakes but are actually very low stakes and so then when you are in those more high stakes situations you're a little more comfortable in that space right

So when you're doing an improv scene, it feels like it makes the whole difference in the world, whether this scene is good or not. When in reality, you're doing it in front of 20 people, right? And it's never going to exist again. No one's filming it. No one's writing it down. It's not even like a podcast where it exists. forever it's gone once you do it it's gone and so if you can get comfortable in that space of like trying something and letting it go

Then the next time you're maybe presenting at work and you're so nervous about this presentation, you can realize a little bit more like it's going to be OK. Like I'm going to do my presentation. If it's great, it's great. If it's not, it's going to it's not going to stay with these people. It's not going to be.

a lifelong event. You know, we like get over ourselves a little bit. So, you know, there's a lot of aspects of it. I think the other big part of it is I'm always someone who loves to collaborate and improv is inherently really a team sport. And I think in workplaces that we visit a lot with Artly Working, it's very easy to kind of get siloed and feel like you're working on your project and that's what matters. And to remind yourself.

how collaborative basically all work is, right? How you need each other, you need to trust each other, you need to bounce ideas off of each other, you need to support each other. And it's so important to practice that collaboration so that you're not really on your own, so that you know.

When you're stuck, you reach out to someone else and get help. And when they're stuck, they know that you're there for them to help them. And we sort of say that in theory in workplaces, like, oh, you can always... email me always call me if you have a problem but we don't necessarily mean it and we don't feel it right we don't like feel that trust so i think

For us, a lot of times the team building exercises really build that trust so that that great work is possible. Otherwise, we're each kind of running on our own track and we're not helping each other. I mean, you've been doing this for a minute now. So what would you say, just one, because obviously I think people are just naturally fascinated by the idea of improv as a whole. What would you, just in your day-to-day travels,

And when talking about what it is that you do, what are some like misconceptions that people have about improv, if any? Yeah, no, lots for sure. I think two main ones come to mind. One is that you have to be funny to do improv or you have to be funny to be performative. And so people are scared to even try to be presentational because they worry about being funny.

The best improvisers are actually not trying to be funny. They're not trying to find jokes. What they're trying to do is be great listeners and be in the moment and really be connected to other people. And I think that connects to the other falsehood, which is... People think improv or comedy is all about...

talking and it's actually mostly about listening. I think the greatest improvisers are incredible listeners and what audiences appreciate and in the workplace, what people appreciate is if you're such a good listener that someone says something, you kind of tuck it away in your brain and then.

20 minutes later you come back with it right like you're you're doing an improv scene and someone says like i don't play baseball anymore not since my dog left you know and then you tuck that away and then 20 minutes later you're like

How's your dog, by the way? You know, or whatever it is. It's like people are just blown away by that, those moments. And I think similarly... in the workplace it's it's your listening skills and your ability to really hear people and be in the moment with them that is so powerful in what you do so i think like listening over talking is a big one and

not needing to be funny to do this, to do this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned, you know, I think you've referenced active listening a couple of times. So, um, I mean, Have you over, you know, over your time, have you acquired any like best practices and ways to do that? Because I think it's often like easier said than done. I mean, it seems like, well, just listen to somebody. But, you know, like especially when like when you look at the brain as just.

a a device that's just constantly consuming information and trying to figure out what is going to be the the more relevant information and wants to capture at that moment you know with that our attention span often especially now being so freaking like short Like what, you know, what, what, if any, you know, like best practices do you have, have you learned when it comes to retaining information for, for some of that active listening? Yeah, I think.

Active listening, like a lot of things, are really a muscle that you need to exercise, right? And I think we don't sometimes think of these quote-unquote soft skills as things that you practice. We think of them as things that you either have, you're either naturally funny or... or naturally outgoing, or naturally a good listener.

But there's things we can practice. And improv for me is how I practice and how we keep that muscle strong. So like a really simple game, for instance, is one we call breaking news, right? And this is just you take. turns with a partner making up news headlines. So one person says, breaking news, a tsunami is raging in California. And then the next person has to take any word from that first headline and make a new headline. So they say, breaking news.

California now makes it mandatory to eat veggie burgers. Right. And then so you can't think ahead. You have to be listening to your partner and you have to use one word that they said in your next headline. So in playing a game like that. You can't think ahead. You can't plan ahead. And you can't stop listening. If you stop listening for 30 seconds.

You just kind of lose the game. So I think it's really just like practicing like that, like a muscle so that when you're in regular conversation, you have those skills, right? You're listening to someone and you're able to notice those words. You're able to notice also notice, you know, their their tone, what they're not saying. Like one of the one of the frequent improv ideas is notice more. Right. And it's about noticing.

the tone of what somebody says. And this is something that comes from acting as well, right? Which is that anything can mean anything, right? Like if you're in a relationship, like I love you, depending on how you say it, it could mean. I care about you. It could mean I'm so sorry. It could mean F you. Right. Depending on how you say it. The same words. Yeah. Bless your heart. Right. That could mean a hundred things. Right. And so I think it's.

It's really practicing in that ear. And so that's why I love improv is that it's a way to practice it because I don't think there's like a magic recipe for it. I think it's a muscle that you have to practice. Yeah.

Have you learned anything about yourself through improv that has just been kind of like very enlightening? Like, oh, this is obviously because with the idea of improv, obviously the phrase everybody's talking about, like, yes, and right. But like. When you're in your own practices, have you learned anything about your own behaviors or like, oh, this is this is something that.

You know, just through improv that I've learned about myself, these are some natural reactions or thoughts that that that I have doing doing these these exercises and whether, you know, different troops and everything that you've been a part of. Have you what have you learned? about yourself from that yeah i i've learned a lot i think i've i've really learned that for me um seeing things as

a competition is really detrimental to me and seeing things as uncompetitive actually motivates me more. So, you know, when I was younger and I did. a lot of sports and theater. I still love a lot of sports, watching, sometimes playing. I think... I would really get wrapped up in the competition and really get angry. And I realized that I had a lot of anger and a lot of trouble with that. And I think a lot of it was really my feeling of...

Competition and so I think the practice of improv helped me to to feel more like we're trying as a team to do the best we can and we're together in some ways and be a little bit less hard on myself when things didn't go well. And I think it taught me to... to forgive myself a little bit and to move on a little bit. I think it's, I think it's Kevin Spacey who said, who's sort of disgraced now, but also an amazing actor in many films, despite a lot of his personal shortcomings and said that.

You know, what makes an amazing actor is the ability to forgive yourself instantly. That we all make mistakes. But that if you or I, Andrew, like messed up a line on stage or did a bad entrance, we might be angry at ourselves for a day or a week or a month, right? Just like thinking on it over and over again.

But that a great actor, and I think this could be true in other fields as well, you can forgive yourself almost instantly and move on because you need to, right? It's not that you didn't make a mistake. It's that... There's not really a point in beating yourself up about it. We all sort of know that intuitively.

The only way you can be great at something is being able to forgive yourself so that you can try again. So I think that was a lot of improv for me was being able to forgive myself for the shortcomings and be able to try again. Yeah. I love that. And I think this might be like a good like segue into unless there's anything else you want to add. But speaking of somebody that loves a good improv, I mean, Rick Moranis and Steve Martin, who two very much were at the top of their own games.

This film that we're going to get into. Before, my final thing, just because you had mentioned competitive and you referenced Philadelphia and you guys just won a Super Bowl. So...

Your thoughts, your hot take, the Philadelphia fandom passion. often uh associated with being kind of you know like they boo santa claus is that you know is that is that misguided or is there a little bit of truth like yeah we can we can be a little we can be a little harder than uh than maybe some fan bases Yeah, I think in Philadelphia...

The love for the Eagles especially is real and intense and ubiquitous. And people take it too far sometimes, you know, when love makes people do crazy things. And we've done some crazy things in the past. I would say. I recently saw an amazing 30-minute documentary that's on Netflix called Turnaround about a Philadelphia fan, lifelong fan, who's a very Philadelphia guy and just an interesting character himself.

We have a Phillies player, Matt Turner, I believe, who was struggling in hitting. And he basically was someone who was really critical and tough and just like a fan that went to every game. And he basically had the idea and put on social media. This guy's struggling. He's been an amazing hitter in the past. Trey Turner. I'm sorry, not Matt Turner. Trey Turner. Trey Turner. And he said, this homestand this weekend.

At every game that Trey Turner bats, let's all give him a standing ovation because he needs love right now. He needs support and not tough love. He needs real love. He needs full love. And let's just give him a standing ovation. Let him know we're with him.

And people did that all weekend. And he started hitting home runs that month at a crazy pace and turned around. And it was this beautiful story, I think, of the opposite side, which also exists. And so I love seeing this 30 minute documentary because it. you know that yes, all those stories and those things are true and I'm not going to pretend that they're not, but there's other beautiful sides of our crazy fandom. And I'll say that in Philadelphia,

When there's Eagles games, the whole city really like rides the wave of emotions. And it is something that genuinely brings us together at this really polarized political time. It is beautiful to be able to like hug strangers and say, go birds. And everyone really means it.

And it's like a hug to any stranger just saying, go birds. You know, every time I checked out a grocery store, it's like, go birds. You know, anything you do, it's go birds. Yeah, man. I love that. Thank you very much for obviously sharing your story. But, you know.

sharing a little story on Pittsburgh I spent two years in Pennsylvania but on the other side I went to grad school in Pittsburgh but but yeah similar personality uh that you know the pennsylvania folk have but um but yeah just any time to talk a little a little shop on sports i'm always i'm always down for that all right so let's let's dive right on into my blue habit yeah So yeah.

You know, in the outset, I would have briefly covered, you know, a bit about this plot. But what is it about? I mean, so if there's if you want to, you know, share a little about what the movie is about, but I'm more interested in why did you want. want to talk about my blue heaven yeah so you know my blue heaven

came out when I was a kid. And I think as we were discussing a little bit in sort of the pre-show, it was on the HBO rotation for a while. And it was for our family as well. And I remember we recorded it onto a VHS. from HBO, and frequently watched this VHS, which we just loved. And I think for my family, for my dad and my sister and I especially, this movie was...

just always brought us joy, always was kind of a pleasure to watch. And individual lines from it just stuck with us. And we would just joke about them, use them all the time. And there's something...

so playful and light about the whole movie that I think it was impossible to watch it and kind of not feel good. And I think Steve Martin's portrayal of this sort of Italian... mobster while like not, you know, brilliantly accurate necessarily was really like fun and playful as well I think in a way I think that just his his mannerisms his voice his style was just so much fun that again it was just like it was a feel-good movie for me and so when I was thinking about what movie

to talk about. I was thinking about this is a movie that always brought a smile to me. I always enjoyed. I rewatched it again a week ago and it still brings me that joy. And I feel like so few people know about it that it's, I want to let people know about it. I want to talk about it.

Yeah, absolutely. So just a couple of things. Man, like I'm so excited about this conversation because I feel it can go many, many different ways just because we both have a very, very rich history with this movie. So a couple of things, because you mentioned the dialogue.

and very quotable. There are lines in this movie that I still use today that my wife will look at me quizzically like, what the hell are you even talking about right now? But, you know, that's a huge testament to Nora Ephron. So for the listeners, if that name sounds familiar, well, it should. You know, she's responsible for, you know, like co-writing When Harry Met Sally. She did this film.

sleepless in seattle uh you've got mail right you know and shoot uh julian julia uh julian julia right so very like prolifically amazing comedic uh comedic writer and yeah and then you've got Steve Martin in this, you know, playing kind of something completely different. You know, he's he's playing a, you know, a mobster who's now in the witness protection program. But yeah, like.

I wanted to talk maybe dialogue a little bit later, but because that was one of the early things you mentioned. I mean, screw it. Let's go there. Like what are what are some lines that if there's anything that stands out to you that you're like, yeah, like those are some of my.

favorite lines if you need time I can literally spout off like a good like five or six without even like hesitating yeah I mean you know I think the first line chronologically in the movie that I just like love went off was

He's in the witness protection program, Steve Martin, and he gets asked what his social security number is so he can pay you. And he gives off the numbers one at a time. And then he says, two, five. And Rick Moran says, that's one too many numbers. He says, take off the five. So like take off the five was just like all. something we would laugh about anytime the number five came up in life it was just like take off the five

Because it's just so funny that he didn't know what a social security number was. And it was funny that it was funny to me, even as a kid, I didn't really know what that was. But it was clear that... As this life of crime, he had never, like, filled out any paperwork. He had never heard of a social security number. So that's the first one that comes to mind. Yeah, I mean, he's literally seeing a social, like, one digit at a time. And it takes, like, a minute.

to get through, you know, like the first eight and then he spouts off two, five, you know, and yeah. Yeah. Great. Great. I think also when he talks to Rick Moranis. And says, my wife also left me in October. What is it about October? I don't know. Pressure Halloween. You never know what to go as.

It's like so true and just like the most ridiculous reason to ever get divorced. Like, it's so funny that he's like, that's maybe that's why we got divorced because Halloween is full of pressure to dress up. I love the bit when he's having a serious moment and he's like, five o'clock, Christmas morning. I run downstairs and look under the tree and what do I find? Uncle Al Fresco dead on the floor. Shot through the back of the head. Plus, no bicycle.

It was disappointing Christmas on multiple levels. Yeah, another one in the interrogation that was amazing when he gets pulled in for a crime is, you know, he says... You know, I was making a few novenas for Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is not an Italian holiday. Yes, it is. Turkey cacciatore, sweet potato parmesan. She's like, I've been to Italy. It's not an Italian. He's like.

Florence, right? Yeah. Ever been to Sicily by any chance? No. Thanksgiving is very big in Sicily on account of a large number of Sicilians who came to America and then got thrown back out. It just killed me. Oh, man, it's so good. Okay, all right. So...

You know, I think I would have mentioned this at the intro, but for the listeners that if they are familiar with this movie, but don't, you know, if they watch this movie like, man, you know, kind of reminds me a lot of Goodfellas. Well, yes, yes, because if I understand this correctly, and you might be able to correct me if I'm wrong here.

Nora Ephron, who is the writer of this film, she was married to... Nicholas Pileggi. Yes, Nicholas Pileggi. And Nicholas Pileggi, you know, was... response for essentially writing goodfellas right now they were married and they both had interviewed henry hill and that's this film is a different take on the whole henry hill story but this is This is that story, as is obviously Goodfellas. Now, this movie actually got the jump on Goodfellas. I think this movie came out like a month or two before.

Goodfellas even came out. But it's often like people are like, oh, that movie is ripping off or parodying Goodfellas. Well, technically it came out before and it is the same story. It's in a different light. But I've always been fascinated. by that element where this movie pairs really well with Goodfellas. You know, you could do a double feature of this movie and Goodfellas and have a pretty damn good afternoon, I think.

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I think so. Nora Ephron, right, wrote this. I believe the story is my dad got to interview Nora Ephron years ago for for a public radio show for. He's a guest host of Fresh Air. And she was on Fresh Air. And...

talked about this. And I believe that it was in that interview that she said that Henry Hill would call her husband, Nicholas Pelleggi, like often to like complain about life in the witness protection program because he's living this like anonymous life after this.

life of crime and he really like can't talk to anybody so he would kind of like vent to nicholas pledge he wrote wise guy the book about him and then wrote goodfellas the movie about him and if people remember the goodfellas movie it kind of ends or one of the ending shots is kind of him in this suburban house in this witness protection program. And that's kind of the beginning of, of this movie. So it really like dovetails right into it, but I do love the idea.

of the nugget of truth and the kernel of truth that inspired this very silly zany movie, as you said, right? Like I was talking about improv and truth and comedy is so important that Nora Ephron like didn't just come up with this crazy idea. Like this really was. It was.

a real life mobster that she knew about that like really hated living in witness protection, which you could really imagine because that is wild to have a whole life of crime in the city and then be told you have to live in the suburbs and not talk to anyone. and not do any of your things. It's really the polar opposite. And that's so much where the comedy comes from. And I think also for me, one of the reasons I love this movie is it's about like the...

The pluses and minuses of the suburbs in the city. I think you could also see that current running through it is like, what do suburbs and quiet America have that cities don't have? And what do cities have that they don't have? I think that's a kind of. you know, quiet theme in the movie as well. You know, man, um...

Let me backtrack a little bit because you raised all interesting points, but I want to try to, for the sake of this conversation, try to have some type of narrative structure, which I think in our preliminary discussions, I'm like, this is probably just going to go off the rails because I'm just going to want to go. multiple different like tangents but let's you know so you know like obviously this is a blend of a comedy and and mobster story

How do you feel like the balancing act works in this film? I mean, critically... And seemingly, you know, it did pretty well if you look at like on Rotten Tomatoes. But then you look at the audience, they didn't quite flock to it. It wasn't necessarily a bomb by any standards. And it gathered much, you know, very, very strong presence, you know, through.

But how do you feel the film does on that blending of zany comedy, but also trying to share some elements of a mobster story? Yeah, I mean, I definitely think it... It does better as a comedy than a mobster story or it focuses more on being a comedy than a mobster story. Like for me, I see it as.

You know, the mobster story is kind of the, you know, like the MacGuffin, the conceit that like gets us into this whole world. And then it's really this kind of like fish out of water story and comedy. And so. It's really played for comedy. I don't think as a viewer you're ever feeling...

The intensity of the danger. I think there's like a couple moments in the movie where there's sort of an attempt on Steve Martin and it's really quick and it's not built up in a high stakes kind of way. It's not built to be dramatic or scary at all. It's really. almost a side note towards the plot line. But I think it's... I think it works well as like, you know, there's kind of enough of that world that you're you're drawn into it. But it's definitely much more about.

You know, how does a mobster or a criminal function in the real world? And one of the sort of unrealistic parts of the movie, but that's fun. And spoiler alert, if you haven't seen it, I guess, but I don't know if you worry that people haven't seen it. It's been. know 30 years or whatever um whatever but yeah see then go see it before you listen to this next sentence but that he basically discovers that like 20 of his friends from new york are also in this protection program

also in this small town. And that's a part that like I watched it with friends last week and they were like, what? Why do all these people end up in the same town? I'm like, guys, go with it. It's a movie. Like that part, that part, I think, doesn't necessarily make sense, but it's just a lot of fun to say. what if a bunch of them ended up here and how would they all function? And so meeting that whole world is, is fun seeing his world. Yeah. You know, I, I think of like other.

Again, I'm using Mopster very loosely. Obviously, it's based loosely on Henry Hill's story, but this movie, it reminds me of, say, Johnny Dangerously. It starred Michael Keaton in the 80s, which that was a very kind of like... classic like gangster comedy or something that came out what maybe eight or nine years after this like analyze this you know kind of like falls in that that that teeter but this one is

Although like Johnny Dangerously is just a total like farce. It's like airplane meets like a mobster movie. This is just a little bit zanier than, say, analyze this. But I don't know. I'm always interested in. in different genre of films and when a movie takes it and kind of upends it and does something kind of different and kind of funny in this movie you know obviously is a little bit more classic mobster than say a movie like the whole nine yards, which is just a different type of...

action comedy type crime keeper type thing. But I don't know. I'm just always intrigued by that. But, you know, just trying to figure out where the movie stands. So for an audience trying to find this movie, if they haven't seen it, you know, some 30 some odd years.

later what are some kind of like good comps and what are some things that the audience should look for now obviously my my natural inclination is this is just an opportunity to see rick moranis and steve martin just really shine together and when I find out like

How these two came to this role versus what the original intentions are, I find quite, quite intriguing. So I don't know if you have any thoughts or if there's any, that's not even really a question, but. How did they come to this role? I don't even know how they're.

backstory to get to it yeah so what happened this originally had been written and it was off like goldie hahn was like like a producer to it and then there was like a because it was written in the the mid late 80s and the writer's strike happens and And so the writer's strike ends. Golihan says, all right, I'm kind of done with this, but we can maybe...

you know, find some other people to do it. And so what they found is they're like, all right, we're going to have Steve Martin play the FBI agent and we're going to have Danny DeVito as, as the gangster. And for whatever reason, that doesn't happen. And then they're like, all right, well, then we'll have Steve Martin be. the gangster, and then Arnold Schwarzenegger be the FBI agent, and will do that. And Arnold had just, at that point, just got locked in for a kindergarten cop. And then...

Boom, they're like, all right, screw it, we'll do Rick Moranis. Because I think they had been, they had been in a couple films together. Now, of course, the films they did together are completely escaping me. What the hell did they do together? I know they did stuff. Well, I mean, Little Shop of Horrors is, you know, stars Rick Moranis and has, you know.

Small but massive role from Steve Martin as The Dentist. So that's the one for me that I love. That's another one of my favorite films. Yeah. Now I'm going to quickly. Yeah. So definitely Little Shop of Horrors, but I'm just going to. But yeah, while you're looking it up, I mean, that's like fascinating to hear because...

Those, you know, those those roles feel so different with those different people. Obviously, I can't picture this with anybody else, because I think what's so great about Rick Moranis' role, which we haven't really talked about yet, is he's this FBI agent that is just.

like trapped in this boring life and sort of doesn't realize how um I think how like trapped and lame his life is until it's all upended by Steve Martin and this and this person like we in the beginning of the movie is, you know, the sort of second scene with him is his wife leaving him for a baseball player. Which is great. And then another line that we always quote is, he has a system for eating pancakes, so the bottom one gets as much syrup as the top, which is ridiculous.

But it's, you know, it's such a sweet part of the movie that Rick Moranis is this like follows the rules by the book guy and has ended up. with that approach in this life that is boring. He has bored his wife so that she leaves him. He bores himself. He doesn't, you know, really do anything. And Steve Martin kind of against his will forces him to like,

think outside the box, to buy a new suit, to break his rules, to drink and party a little bit more, to dance, to put himself out there in a way that feels amazing. And it feels like if you had a more charismatic... person you know in there like Rick Moranis is so so great as kind of a

nerdy, quiet guy that comes out of his shell. I mean, it just feels so perfect. It's hard to picture those other people in that role. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. While you were looking, I was able to find out Parenthood was the other film that he did with Steve Martin. Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. Right. Right. Great, great flick. OK, so we've covered a little like dialogue, but just because we've talked a little bit about the cast again, just for the listeners that haven't seen this film.

Let's see, who else? Joan Cusack is in it. My God, William Hickey, you know, he plays the kind of like the old gangster that finds him. Carol Kane is in the movie. Yeah. Bill Irwin is his FBI friend. Yeah, I want to say like Bill Irwin. I think he played, what is it? I think he's like on...

Sesame Street like these days, like occasionally as like kind of like a recurring character. Yeah, he's done a lot on Broadway as well. And like clowning, I was telling my friends, I've learned that he was he's like a world renowned sort of clown and physical. And so he sort of steals a couple scenes just with dancing ridiculously, which is like funny to say, but he has this kind of small role that steals it for sure.

Daniel Stern has a small role. That's right, yeah, Daniel Stern. Home Alone fame and other movies. Yeah, as Joan Cusack's ex-husband who just shows himself into the house a couple times and gets thrown out by Rick Moranis the second time. But yeah, it's a great cast. Everyone feels great for their role. And fit so well. And yeah, it's just, it's just so fun. Yeah. It is fun. Okay. So.

I'll turn it over to you. I've got a couple of questions, but just for the sake of time, I always kind of commandeer these things. So when you think about this movie and you revisit this movie, are there any particular scenes that you're like, oh, I...

I love this or I want to unpack any of this. I mean, again, this isn't necessarily a movie that I think requires any deep analytical breakdown. But I mean, I'm here for it if you want to go that route. But are there any like scenes in the film that. that you either A, think are just incredible or B, through time you're like, yeah, maybe that one could have been handled a little bit differently or what have you? Yeah, I mean... When I when I rewatched this last week and I when I rewatched some.

You know, older comedies, let's say like, you know, pre 2000 comedies, you know, one of the things interesting about comedy is that the pacing really changes over time and timing changes. And something that I love about. uh this movie and and and older comedies even more so is that There's often like given the air and the space for slower scenes that I think today would be really cut or like fast paced, you know, the style of today, which is amazing.

You know, like Judd Apatow movies, which I love, is like there's like a thousand jokes right in there. It's just like rapid fire. And so if one isn't amazing, that's fine because you film a thousand jokes and you let your actors like improvise. But the sort of like interrogation scenes, which we mentioned. of Joan Cusack are kind of these longer scenes that don't really need to be in there to move the plot. They're just kind of these like long moments for Steve Martin to really like...

you know, like chew on the lines and really like tell his story. And you mentioned him telling this like Christmas story, like there's these longer beats. And I really love those beats because, you know, they don't always work that well, but when they do work well, they're so memorable when they're like slower and they build to that in that way. So those moments I, I really loved and I like appreciate that about this movie. And I, um,

I think about some like older comedies as well that do that. You know, the other one watching at this time, the other element of the movie, which I wanted to make sure to talk about was...

You know, that Steve Martin is kind of this con man. And I watched this with these two friends who are neighbors in my neighborhood. I was telling them they didn't know that like con man is short for confidence man, which I don't know. So I don't know if that's common knowledge or not.

I've never heard that phrase. Yeah. So like con, that's the word con is like confidence, man, is what it meant. And Steve Martin really is that, right? That he is this ultra confident person and he keeps conning people. But there's also this beautiful side of the confidence where a con man can really take advantage of people and steal from people, obviously. But also...

can help people see value and excitement in their own lives that they themselves didn't see. And so this whole movie to me, rewatching it, felt like a story about... Steve Martin landing in this small town that was fine and was doing fine, but with his, like, attitude really, like, transformed it. And that's why I was mentioning I thought of The Music Man, because it felt in the same way where it's a story about a con man that, like, lands in town.

is committing lots of crimes, doing terrible things, but ultimately by the end has won the whole town over. They all love him and they're all like better people. for him having been there because he's given them confidence, given them excitement, and he sort of sees things in a positive way.

While it's like for bad purposes, I think it's great. And like one of the moments in the movie is that he he starts a crime wave with all these other former mobsters and they start hijacking trucks. And at one point they unload this truck in the rain and it's just full of. empty kind of bottles, giant, you know, water jugs. So not individual water bottles, but giant water jugs. And they say like, what do we do with this? And he pauses, like looks at him for a while and holds it. And he says,

You see problems. I see potential. And that line stuck with me as just in some ways what this guy sees of the world, that he can always twist things to make them better. There is something beautiful about that, that like when you see problems, I see potential that you can look at this same truck of empty bottles. And ultimately, he kind of tricks the town into thinking he's raising money for a little league. And then he eventually makes it real and he makes their dream real.

And and there's something nice about that. So I felt like there's this element of of the con man. sort of himself coming around and using his his powers for good and and helping everyone else in a nice way yeah one of my favorite like character traits of vinnie or uh ted right that was his uh Yeah, Ted, right? Yeah, Todd. Vinny and Todd, yeah.

Was is it not just the tipping, but just how like obvious he made his tipping at every opportunity was just like like it was just it was just a really funny thing. And just even his line of like, it's not tipping, I believe, and it's over. tipping uh but even to the point of how he gives away a tip it's never subtle uh just a really fun character trait that uh that minnie has that i've always i've just always really found hysterical and when i think about tipping

Even now, like when I think of the valet, if I'm, you know, if I'm just giving, you know, if I'm just, you know, giving the guy the keys to my car, I do. I always think about, I think of this movie when it comes to just handing money cash as a tip. I'm like, I feel. Yeah, I don't know. This movie just...

Like, obviously, tipping existed long before this film, but this movie has just been in great, just when there are things that are just in your own, like, social lexicon of things that, when you're talking about your family, what things that you talk, that you refer lines, there are just...

mannerisms that happen in this movie that that here it is that hadn't seen this movie in about 15 years i'm like oh shit yeah that's where i got that from that's why i do this um And just even when I like, even when somebody says arugula, I instantly go back to this film and it's. It's just great. I didn't know what arugula was when I first saw this movie, but anytime somebody says the word arugula, my brain always goes back to this film. Yeah, same. Absolutely. Okay.

So while I've got you here, I've got a couple questions that I thought might be intriguing. So let me just let me dive through these. The listeners will be none the wiser.

Okay, we had already spoken a little bit about the film pacing. You know, like pacing is interesting. You brought up like Judd Apatow, you know, as far as everything now. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to blame Michael Bay's action like style or, you know. or even through MTV, you know, at, you know, kind of the reason why everything is kind of like a super fast

kind of like take, but this movie is still only about like 90 or so minutes, you know? And, you know, I'm just kind of curious, you know, from a pacing perspective. Do you think it is like, where does a pendulum swing at this point? Like, you know, there was a time where, you know, you had. You had like, who was it? Like the Marx Brothers. And you had, you know, your Three Stooges. And a lot of that pacing was really fast. And then, you know, even a lot of Mel Brooks stuff was kind of quick.

But then, I don't know, I don't know if it was SNL a little bit where, you know, even if they were like three to five minutes, but like the pacing that they would do, it felt like things, actually shoot, you know, Woody Allen stuff was kind of like slow paced.

So we are right now in kind of a pretty fast pace. Do you think like it gets... faster i mean you're somebody that obviously does a lot of like improv work and this a lot of late 80s a lot of early 90s like to your point you know like the comedy there each page there's a joke, but now like each page, there's gonna be like five or six, six jokes on there. So where do you, do you see it kind of?

even getting faster as we are now you know we we utilize tick tock and everything is so quick and like pacing i think is really interesting so in a movie like this where do you think If this movie were to come out again today in 2025, what would it look like? If you keep the nuts and bolts from a, like, this is the plot, what do you think the pacing looks like? And do you see that?

at being the same way in another three to five years? Or do you feel like there is another balance? I know that's kind of three questions in one, but I do find it interesting because of comedy often is so much about pace, but comedy is also...

very much like a product of its times as things are happening so you can kind of look at it you know you can often appreciate it several decades later in a different like in a different prism if any of that makes any sense i'm just kind of curious what your thoughts are Yeah, absolutely.

I think if you see this movie as a rom-com, which you could argue it is, I think that it would have more continuity with rom-coms today. And I wonder if those have changed, have not changed as much as the comedy pacing in general. A couple of things come to mind. One is that sometimes like it's the media changes the message, right, in terms of the technology. So film technology, right, this is sort of at the changing moment.

Film was so expensive that you needed to be precise about what you were filming. And when everything sort of went digital, suddenly... you could film a thousand hours, right? And cut it down to an hour. And what that meant for comedies was like, you've got a tight script, but you could also just tell your actors to like go nuts. Or if they went off script for a while.

That didn't affect things. So in some ways that allows for the type of like joke filled pace that we see today is that like Judd Aptow can have a script, but then tell people to kind of to go to go along with these things, you know. Bill Maher, who's someone that I like and watch a lot, has pointed out the interesting conundrum for him that

For him, it feels like we're at a moment in time where everything is either eight seconds or three hours. He says that people either want a TikTok that's like, if it doesn't capture you in 10 seconds, I'm moving on. But we're also in an era of people. watching like two hour videos, right? Like the biggest podcaster in the world, Joe Rogan does like hours long interviews and like, they're not my cup of tea. I've never listened to a whole episode, but.

For some people, they like love that. And it's like hours is amazing. Like they want hours of content. And so I don't know like where we go from here. It's interesting. I think in sort of. mainstream Hollywood films, because you have the ability to film so much and edit so much more, you're more likely to sort of play it safer with like more jokes in less time and hope that some of them will hit.

But I see in – I think there's some really great comedy happenings. I don't know if you saw Bottoms or Shiva Baby, which are – They're great, great ones for a future episode. Co-created with, I think, Rachel Sennett and... I'm forgetting, but Shiva Baby essentially takes place in real time all at a Shiva. And it's sort of this comedy horror story about this girl trapped at a Shiva and ends up that her sort of...

X is there and she's trapped there with her family. And it's kind of this like awkward trapping, but it's sort of slower and intense and a different kind of comedy. So I think there's people that are doing really interesting things. And I think. We're in an era where...

it's so much easier to make content that more different things are possible. So I don't know where we'll go. And it may be that we never are again in an era of like, well, this is what comedy looks like because there's just going to be so many different paths.

Whereas, you know, when it was on stage or TV and like very tight time slots versus now TV is like, how long do you want your episode to be? Right. It could be seven minutes. It could be 90 minutes. Like you don't even know, like, I don't know about you, but sometimes when I'm like watching.

I like check before I start any episode. I'm like, wait, how long is this episode? Because even within the same show, it's like some episodes are 25 minutes, some are 55 minutes. I'm like, well, how are you doing this? You know? Yeah, it's amazing. Like the system now with like through streaming, you know. I don't want to say the system is broken because that just seems kind of just like, fuck it, everything's like trash. But no, like, you know...

Pete, it's not necessarily we're not on that. A movie starts at 8 o'clock and HBO is going to roll the next film at 9.30 or 10 p.m. Like that, the round numbers, you know, and same thing with TV shows, right? You know, you've got 30 minutes, so you're going to have about. 22 minutes of stuff and you're going to have your ad breaks or a 60 minute show, you're going to have 45, 46 minutes in your ad break. So everything starts on an hour. You watch something on Netflix, a 30 minute.

Comedy on Netflix could be 25 minutes. It could be 47 minutes. You just don't know. Stranger Things, you know, just to use the Netflix model, you know, their first season episodes were, you know, 45 minutes. Shit, their last season, they had a couple episodes.

that were full length motion pictures, you know, and it's a TV show. So, yeah, to the point of like pacing, it's just I'm always fascinated by that, like as far as and what you brought up with Bill Maher, I think is really fascinating as far as and very accurate. whether it's 10 seconds or three hours. But...

Even in those three-hour films, they're not now paced in the way that, say, Lawrence of Arabia is, you know? You got three hours, right? We're going to have this action sequence and this action sequence and this action sequence, and we're going to have... this set piece in this set piece so even those three hour films there's a billion things going on it's not david lean shooting you know a sunrise for eight months you know uh trying to capture something or you know stanley cooper

putting Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman in just a hotel room and saying, I want you to repeat these same lines. for three months for like two minutes of screen time, right? I mean, it's just a different ways. But I'm really fascinated just by when we look at what does the world look at. And I'm always, when it comes to... I'm always fascinated because, yeah, like...

I often wonder, does the comedy age? Because I've always found that violence, or rather, when I look at action films, the action might not necessarily hold up, but the drama, the intrigue, the suspense... I think holds really well, where comedy, I think... I don't know. Like when people talk to me about like, for example, Peter Sellers, I can, I can respect him, you know, but I'm like, I don't really find it really funny as much now as it was. So I'm just, I'm always interesting. Like how does.

comedy translate and what does pacing look like so that's the reason why i kind of asked that question but i'm just always kind of fascinated by it yeah i mean i i think Yeah, it is hard for comedy to translate over time and over generations. I think it is so of the moment and obviously like I'm biased, but I think like comedy is hard and comedy is harder than drama in some ways, right? Like I always feel like with the Oscars.

that comedies should be nominated for Oscars, and occasionally they are, but I was like, the year Bridesmaids came out, I'm like, this is clearly the best film of the year. You know, like, I think, like, Jim Carrey and Ace Ventura, he should have won Best Actor for that role, right? But that's...

never going to be nominated because it's not seen as like important or real or as artistic or something but i just think it is it's it's it's harder in some ways and um and yeah a drama can carry over a murder is always exciting that you watch an old Hitchcock film and there's a murder and it's you're drawn into it and even if the pacing is different I think you can still be pretty drawn into it but yeah comedy is really

playing of the moment. It's feeling out verbal tics, you know, conversational cues, pacing and real conversation. So it is, it is hard for it to be evergreen. I think it is harder for comedy to be evergreen. Yeah.

My thank you. And my final question for you, just because as I was reviewing this film again, I was like, I often try to find a theme to kind of unpack, like, you know, what is what is at the core of this movie really trying to talk about? And, you know. we know a little bit of the, the story, you know, background, we covered a little bit here, but I think, you know, if I were to put a theme on this film, I think it's second chances, right? I think that's what this movie.

That's its thesis statement, right? Even, you know, like he's getting a second chance witness protection program, but even he fucks this up, pardon my French, you know? And so even in this story, he gets a second chance to make it right. So I don't know. I don't know.

I don't necessarily have a question packaged around the idea of second chances other than, you know, do you think that is something conscious that, you know, the filmmakers that they were looking at, that that was maybe something that they were thinking of?

was it just maybe Nora Ephron's like this the conversation that my husband's having with Henry Hill is really fucking hysterical and I would love to make a movie you know write a movie about that but I do think especially the fact that we've you know we've had a conversation

only in passing, not necessarily about offering a second chance, but somebody that has a very great... professional record versus his personal behaviors of say somebody like you know uh kevin spacey i i just mentioned um woody allen you know so just this this idea of people's you know uh that

have done have done bad things and this movie looks at like a redemption arc so i'm just kind of curious what your thoughts on if you think that was something that was maybe conscious or if that's just kind of just me uh adding something into this movie to make it make it a little bit more substantive. I don't know. Substantial.

Yeah, no, I think that's beautiful. And I think that's true that it is a lot about second chances. And both for Steve Martin and Rick Moranis, kind of a second chance on their life. You know, the first scene for both of them, their wives leave them, you know, and they're sort of.

starting over and finding their second chance, I think is so important. And I think Nora Ephron, I believe like one of her first big books was writing about her divorce and, and, and, and dealing with that. And so I think. in a way, romantic comedy, but also comedy in general, and this. is our stories of optimism, right? Because they're stories that second chances are possible and that change is possible, that people can change and can be better and life can be better.

You know, it's what we love, I think, about comedies and what I love about this movie is that it does show that like good things are possible and it is easy in life to like get down and be like, I'm stuck in my situation or we're stuck in our situation or. The world is going to crap and there's nothing we can do about it. And there is an element of like...

hope, right, and optimism in comedies and in romantic comedies that things can get better. We can meet that person. You know, we can become a different person. We can find new parts of ourselves at age 40 or 60 or 80, right? We can grow. So I think Second Chances is definitely... definitely running through this. And I think running through Nora Ephron's work in general and, you know, and in the, in, in, in its best unsaccharine moments, that's what rom-com is about is like,

His second chances and finding new hope. Yeah. Awesome. And now I'll pivot into the wrap up portion. But Andrew, that was. beautifully uh stated uh thank you very much i think that right i think we just put a little like bow on the end of this discussion uh to end it very very nicely um

I can't stress enough how much of a fun time I've had chatting with you over these past 45 minutes or whatever. Shit, I guess it's been an hour since we've been talking. This has really flown by. So this has been... So much fun. Hopefully you've enjoyed this conversation. I do want to say, you know, I often extend the invitation to anybody that comes on. But if you ever want to come on, talk some more more films, I think there I think there's definitely an area where.

we can definitely unpack uh some more uh some more comedies maybe you know look at some other like improvisational like stuff based take a movie like a christopher guest where it's all like improv type stuff look at something like that but andrew this has been awesome man thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been really a delight to be in conversation with you and to live in this movie for a minute and I hope people check it out.

Awesome. For the listeners, how can they find out a little bit more about you? Obviously, we've done your intro, but your web page or website or whatever. Yeah, you can reach out to me. My email is just andrew at artlyworking.com, A-R-T-L-Y, artlyworking.com. my improv in the workplace company. And definitely reach out to me there. You can check out Artly Working. You can check out Karakdoors at karakdoors.org and the Bible Players at thebibleplayers.com, my Jewish.

comedy team, but we'd love to talk to everyone. And I'm working on a book right now that's going to come out next year called Participate about how to find more places to participate and engage in our lives and how to help others find that as well. Fantastic. Andrew, good luck to you. And again, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks, Andrew. Thank you. All right, everybody. Andrew Davies. Again, thank you so much to Andrew for being on the show. What an absolute great guest he was.

And pretty damn good film taste, too. My Blue Heaven, if you haven't seen it. So funny. Can't recommend it enough. And as a reminder, it's the same source material as Goodfellas. So maybe there's a good little, like, late night. Double feature you can do where you watch Goodfellas and then you watch My Blue Heaven or vice versa. Either way, my dog is now yawning in the background. So I think that'll do it for this week's episode. But don't worry, we will be back with...

in time for a finale here in the not too distant future. That's it. That'll be like the season five finale. But fret not because season six is just around the corner and we've got a lot of great stuff in store. So that'll do it for this week. And we will see you next time on another episode of Stamper Cinema.