Justin: [00:00:00] This is episode number 53 of the spycraft 1 0 1 podcast with me right now is Felix Rodriguez, a retired paramilitary operations officer with the central intelligence agency. Felix took part in many of the pivotal events of the cold war, including covert operations in Cuba, the Vietnam war Laos support to the Contras in Nicaragua and most famously the hunt for Che Guevara in Bolivia in 1967.
I've been hoping to speak to Felix since I started this podcast. So I'm very happy that we finally made contact and are able to talk about the incredible life he's led today. But first, I wanna say a big thank you to everyone listening, who is also supporting me on Patreon, including will D and Adam G your monthly contributions there help keep the podcast going weekend and week out as a way of saying thank you to my patrons.
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Felix, thank you for taking the time to, for this interview today. It's
Felix: a pleasure to be with you today. Wonderful,
Justin: wonderful. I think everyone listening to this episode at this point is just as excited to hear from you as I am. I wanna start out though by going all the way back to Cuba before the revolution.
Felix: , I come from a very small town, Cuba called Sancti Spiritus. Which is one of the original town that was founded in Cuba, even much older than Havana and it's in the middle of the island. So I went through there, from 1941 until 1952. I used to go Las Sal, a school in Sancti Spiritus in those first few grades. Then when 19 took too Batista took over, he made my uncle, the secretary of public work.
So he was single. So he has my more to set up his home in Havana. So I move with them to Havana. I spent one year in La Sal of Maria now, and then one year in the Havana military [00:02:00] academy. Then in 1954, actually, my uncle offered me if I wanted to go to school in the United States and I selected to do that.
So I remember going to the us embassy with my mom and, we had a lady there who different alternative of a school in the state. I wanted to see us know. So we turned out to go to Pennsylvania. So I finally went there to a school called per and preparatory school in a little town called Penn, Pennsylvania, which is about from Allentown.
And then 41 miles from Philadelphia.. And that's where I started my schooling there.
Justin: How old were you when you arrived in? Philadelphia
Felix: was, 14 years old and we got seven, eighth grade in there. And then I spent 40 years in high school. We finally graduated, in 1960, but I interrupted my high school in there in 1959. Because my parents went to Mexico and vacation in 1958.
So I, I went [00:03:00] from a school to meet them there in 1958 in December. And then we going to wait for new year's Eve in Mexico, which we did, and they was supposed to fly to Havana from there, but that's when Batista left, Fidel took over so. I never got to go to Havana. Then I came back to the school, in Pennsylvania then, , later on, I went back to visit them in 1959.
And there was a recruiting member of the Cuban army, who was recruiting people for, was named the anti communis of the Caribbean in the Dominican Republic. And his name was captain Cortez from the Q army. So I actually, I guess one of the questions you have is, you know, how I got involved in this. And the, the thing was I saw the television when they were conducting the executions in Q and the trials of the people that executed.
And one that really impacted me was the trial that was [00:04:00] going on against the major of the Cuban army LAN. He was really a mockery of, of law. You can look at it, here, they bring this guy, who's supposed to, to point out Lanco killing his brother. And when this farmer arrived in there, he start pointing at the prosecutor and telling the prosecutor that he killed his brother.
They had to tell him what the guy next to him. So it was really a ridiculous type of, of things. Hmm. And that really QA never had firing a squad before he never existed in our law. You know, it really impacted me and I thought something had to be done. So when this man came, I was recruited and I went to Dominican Republic arriving there on the 1st of July of 1959
Justin: wow. Okay. How many guys went with you? Were there, I mean, was it anyone that you knew from school that went along as well?
Felix: No, no, no. There was none from a school. There were just some military people that had left and they were living. In a very cheap hotel where my partner were staying called the Ontario [00:05:00] hotel in Mexico city.
So actually there were about three officers that were in the Cuban army who went eventually to do Republic. And I went by myself in that I was one of the youngest one. I was 17 and I turned out 18. When I got to do Republic. On the 4th of July, we were trained in a Naval base called CALS in the do Republic.
And they were actually, Cuban were 50,
were 50 of mixed nationalities that we were being trained there, eventually to go and fight against cast Cub. That was the first thing that, ever took place against cast and inside. They had movement called LA that the Diaz father of the two congressmen that were here. We're depressing of, of that movement against cast in 1959.
And we were part of that.
Justin: Hmm. Okay. So initially there's no us government [00:06:00] involvement in this, in the anti communist league. Is that right? This is a Dominican and Cuban initiative, right?
Felix: Nothing at all. Strictly was Cubans involving.
Justin: Okay. I see. And were you going to go as a, I mean, were you just gonna be like a, like a fighter, I mean like a, like an infantryman, is that what you were training for invasion
Felix: Actually they call us Legionaires. I was a legionaire with no rank. Eventually we became kind of a squad and there were
Germans involved in may squad and so some Spaniards in there. And that was the first venture against Castro, because there was, if you recall, there was a Cuban mayor called AOR from a Spanish ancestor. His brother had been killed attack to presidential palace, trying to kill Batista before that. This guy was a Cuba major from the ES Ray mountain.
And he claimed that he had taken over the city of tri that in, in a rebel operation against the Castro. And he asked for our people in Dominican Republic to support him with weapon personnel. [00:07:00] So they, we agreed to do that. There was one of the C 46 claim that Batista had used to escape where there was stationed right there in the Dominican Republic, San air force base, the Dominican Republic.
And then there was about five were supposed to go there, weapons and all of that to support that operation. So I helicopter in, in, in Calera base from the Dominican air force base in San, and there were five also supposed to go. One of them was a two Cuban lieutenants, one from Santa. Another one to tell Rodriguez.
And there was one member from the French Legion who was Spanish origin, Maribran. And then there was Roberto who used to be a policeman in Cuba. And his father was Dubai, was in the helicopter. Also. Now they were supposed to stay in Cuba, with all the weapons to train them. My mission was, I was only 18 years old.
My mission was to [00:08:00] accompany the plane, we were to service the plane there, to put gasoline in there, if necessary and do Roberto Martin pet's
father, who was very close to my family. We were sitting already inside the helicopter. He came in and say, look, my son have more experience than you. He's about 70 years older than I was. And say, one of you have to come with me when I go. So my, my son will go and you come, you get outta the helicopter.
So he pulled me out of the helicopter. And actually the guy who took my place was a captain in the Cuban army. He was still defending the planes in Trinidad and Roberto Martin Paris spent the next 20 years in a Cuban prison. Wow. So it was
Justin: wow. Wow. That would've been unbelievable that would've been your first brush with the Cuban military and it ended so terribly for those guys, if you hadn't been pulled off that helicopter then.
Right. Wow. That's incredible. So did you actually go into Cuba with the, with the anti communist league with this group? Or did [00:09:00] that come later?
Felix: No, no, no. Was only right there and it was, was not, it was a, they were not actually against Dale, so all of them were captured. And I say, this one, this captain who defended the plane was killed on the spot and the other people went to prison.
Of course the plane was confiscated in Cuba and from their own, you know, eventually the Legion was determinated by Trujilio. So it was the end of it. I did contract the hepatitis. So in December of 1959, came back to Miami recovered a little bit, then went back, back to school. I finally was able to graduate, from high school in 1960 at the June, 1960.
Then, well, I actually was accepted the university of Miami for engineering, but then when I got to Miami, I learned there was something somewhere in south America, to do something against Castro instead of the university, I decided, you know, to join that, which happened to be, the bay of pigs and five, which at the time had no [00:10:00] name
Justin: at all then did bay.
Wow. And did they, did you hear about this through the grapevine or did they approach you directly because of your previous experience?
Felix: No. No. When I was, when I arrived in Miami, they were friends of mine who knew about this, operation in, in central America. Well, we didn't know what it was. It was nowhere in south America really.
Then, you know, we were recruited, in there and then we flew, to Guatemala. Now, one thing that I like to make, you know, a lot of people question, why was the CIA involved in a military when the C CIA actually have no expertise whatsoever in military landing? Mm-hmm everybody thought the Pentagon was the one who was to put, we conduct that type of operation.
And the simple answer was it was never meant to be a military. This operation was conceived under the administration. President E in 1960, early 1960 was brief. The Q was planning to go into a different phase of relationship with the Soviet union [00:11:00] and they were planning to bring of missile into the island.
So the CIA commissioned president commissioned the CIA to be the region. And the original concept was not invasion per se. It was. To promote a gorilla warfare in the Cambri who already had hundred of gorilla operating in that mountain center of Cuba, actually very close to my hometown of, Sancti Spiritus.
Ah, right.
So the, they, they sent a, a Colonel who actually graduated from west point called N was his real name.
He used the name also hoo. He was from Philippino origin and he had been very successful in the war against the communist in the Philippine. Now his idea was completely different. Now. He created when members of the brigade were there. Actually, when I arrived, there were about two in the training camps. When I left for Panama for additional training, that was only 600 on December of 1960.
So [00:12:00] what this Colonel did, he separated the, what we call later brigade. At that time they had no name three groups. What they called the great teams, black teams, or they called the special forces brigade. The black teams and the occupational force now the great teams or special forces of brigade, that was a group of us.
It was about 90 of us. And they were pretty young. The oldest one had we call him the grandfather. He was about 33 years. Old of us was our, between 80 and, and 22, 23 years old. I was 19 at the time. So we train intelligent communication, everything. And our mission was to landing Cuba way before anything happened.
But that time nobody knew was going to be an invasion. Now, our mission was to support the internal resistance in Havana and different of the most important city throughout the island, six different problems that they had at the time. And also to be able to start sending people from the cities into B [00:13:00] mountain.
And once they had influx of a lot of this civilian into mountain, they will, according to need, they will display this black teams that were 25 Manish. They were highly trained in explosive demolition in weaponry, in maritime reception and air reception, to be able to receive weapon from the, from the United States or from whatever from central America using airdrops and maritime using the boats.
And then according then this distinguish going in, they start producing all of these weapon training, this guerrilla. And once we have enough gorillas in play that they were able to secure small territory, it had to be small. Didn't have to big an area. Fidel could not come in. Then what they call the occupational force, which is the rest of the brigade later on, was called brigade, came into the area with a very powerful radio station, a civilian government, and they were going to go on the air, promoting a, they would be within a year, [00:14:00] they would have democratic and elections in Cuba with a civilian government at the time that would then recognized by the United States, the organization of American state.
And that would be the end of. 99% American troops, maybe 1% Latin American troop. And that was it. Now that whole until November, of 1960. All right. That's when election took place now, president Kennedy had been as very, as strong against Nixon telling the Nixon administration in St. Administration, they were not doing enough, to actually liberate Cub from communism.
And of course, Nixon in the debate could not tell that we already had people in Guatemala to be able to do that specifically. Of course. So when the was confronted, that was a group of so many Cubans in central America. He had to take a decision yet to continue with the operational terminated. Now, once the president is elected, really the other administration become, they don't take [00:15:00] any decision of any importance.
Then he, even though it had not compressed yet, he's the one who take control of foreign. Policy, especially in something so significant as invading Cuba. So the president decided to continue with the operation, but he didn't wanna have a operation that was conceived and run by the Republican. So he decided to continue, but he completely disbanded the black teams.
And the idea was the first operation was to take over the city of Trinidad. And to me, that was an excellent choice. Cause the city of Trinidad is on the south coast of Cuba is very close to the port of, where Bri didn't have to land like they did at the, they just had the big boat to get right to the pier and just walk into the land in there.
Then it was right next to B SBRI mountain. If anything went wrong, our people were going mountain and joined. The GU were pre a lot of them were in that. There also, they were as [00:16:00] hospital between that and the. Right. The mountain called that barista had built for people with respiratory problem. And that was housing at that time, about 2000 guerrilla that were captured, which meant that we had raised 2000 people right there who knew how to use weapon.
And we were bringing we 10,000 additional rifle to be able to distribute to the people that we thought were going, be joining us. And then there was a wrong way was going be expanded. And then our B2 six would be able to right from there. And we were bringing on the boat fuel for the boat, rocket bumps and everything to be able to from Cuban.
And that is far enough from Havana. Then the Fidel T 33 jet plane could not fly there and return with the same tank of fuel. So they would not be able to use those plane to attack us. Now, the bay of pick was much closer, so they could do that. They would come with yet and back and forth, and that hole until about the very end of September.
Then [00:17:00] unfortunately, some advisor of president Kennedy talking that it was very difficult to deny American participation. Cause it was a city. There was going to be a lot of press in the city, which is ridiculous. Nobody could believe that a group of ex will be able to tanks planes, troops on that amount of weapon and not being the United involved.
Everybody knew the United States was involved for of this M so discard decided reason. The was area, very small cities around that area. Not many population in there. It had only two road of access. So if we control the air and we land in there and take over and control the air for a few days, that would be enough to set up the provisional government, the, and what was done period of time.
Now. To be able to be successful for that [00:18:00] operation. Definitely. We had to control the error. So the first two errors tried that took plate before invasion. They took out 90% of Castro air force, but still they had left T 33 jet trainers, which is no match to a B 26 is a live T 33, get it's lion against a, not was all plane eliminate air force.
Now the, the Kennedy administration was telling the world that these two eras tried, that took place against Cuban target were defecting pilot from the Cuban air force. That's why they painted our playing with the, for area revolutionary mm-hmm, the insignia of the Q air force B6, Cuba, B2. [00:19:00] And we were giving B2 six from the national guard, but there was a big difference.
Their B were a little bit older and the nose of the Q and B, it was, and the machine were on the, the wings, our metal nose machine,
the configuration that at that time, when the first attack, they were able to shut down one of our B2 sixes. So here you have AAI Stevens who at the United nation telling the world that those were defecting plane from the Cuban air force. Here come. The Cuban ambassador Raul was pictured from those planes on the plane that they shut down.
That clearly show a 50-caliber machine gun in the nose and the Cuban plane that were plastic nose. So Nick, Steven, so had never been really brief of the [00:20:00] administration. He really, he was also telling the world, cause he was told that they were planes that were defecting. So when he was confronted, the administration told him that indeed, but Roy was saying was right.
Then he told the administration unless they put a stop to the air strike we resign to the UN because it will not likely work.
Justin: Do you think that original plan had a lot more chance of succeeding.
Felix: So that was. That was then when they stopped the air strike. That's when novation landed, if you control the air and they were able to, the first day, the Houston was bringing all the ammunition, all the rocket, the radio station, everything, and they did not have a, the brigade.
So the first 24 hour, they brigade fought bravely. They took every single position that was assigned then in the military plan. And then on the second day, they extended the ammunition for one day, for 48 hours. And then on the third day, there was no, no weapons nomination at all. [00:21:00] And they did not surrender had to go swamp and eventually 95, 98% would the, then were captured.
That was the end of the, what is called the big fiasco in the Bay of Pigs.
Justin: Oh yeah. Incredible story really is. It's such a defining moment of the 20th century and the Cold War. So it sounds like the initial plan that you mentioned had a better chance probably of succeeding until the administration, Kennedy administration, a lot of non-military types got involved in, in kind of micromanaging it.
What do you think about that?
Felix: Absolutely. That's exactly what happened. The other plan would have taken a longer period of time but it was more secure. We definitely would have had a day to overthrow Castro with the other plan.
Justin: Wow. So now I understand that you, you went down to Guatemala, of course, but you actually went into Cuba earlier than the brigade did, right. You went in with a small team.
Felix: Yeah. When they had what they called, you know, especially force of brigade or the great great teams, black teams, our group was about 90 [00:22:00] people, only 36, less than 40 actually entered Cuba before an invasion, okay? In December. Well, first of all, in November, we were used by the Guatemalan government to put down a revolt of army people that was conspiring against president Ydígoras Fuentes. And they were actually instigated by the Cuban intelligence, Cuban government in Puerto Barrios. So they used brigade member to go in there. I was one of the plane that went in there and were B26s, and then finally they gave up and then our infiltration team were moved in December, middle of December to Panama for additional training.
We were trained with military equipment, especially Soviet equipment. Cause we were gonna be dealing, in the city with weapons, this mainly Soviet union. So we were made familiar with the AK 47, the Chinese submachine gun the RPG. So we train all of that in Guatemala. Then we spent New Years Eve actually Guatemalan then in January, we were taking and flowing [00:23:00] from there to Miami.
And then we were putting a motel, which was in middle of, in the homestead area, was a big swimming pool from that place that's when they started to infiltrate the teams in Cuba .We came to Cuba in three different ways. One of them was the first one to actually arrive were a few of our people who came in through the regular airport.
Okay. They came in with the cover that they were going to a school in different United state universities. Now they got them to go to those university to be able to learn the transportation, the location, everything in case they were question about that. So they actually went to the airport with their real names coming back from Cuba, from the United States, claiming that they were going to come to help the revolution.
And that was a small group of people that entered One team only parachuted into the Camaguey province about five of them. And these rest of us, 90% of us enter clandestine by boat. We had a reception team between Havana and Camaguey [00:24:00] we were in Perdon between Havana and Matanzas, and they were waiting for us, we arrive in there, and then we had to walk about five miles to the main highway, and then there was safe car from the MRR movement pick us up and took off to the safe houses in Havana.
And then we start working the resistance in the old six provinces of Cuba at the time. At time.
Justin: Oh, wow. So you had no problems at all landing, like you, you had a totally safe and uneventful landing when you first went in, then right?
Felix: Right. I landed in late February and I was taken to Havana. Then I, I saw the head of the resistance Francisco, where the commander of all the resistance in there.
I was head of the infiltration team for Las Villas province. That's where Santa Clara is now. And they wanted to do an uprising in the area Which is on the other side of the Escondido mountains. Okay. Now that area is, is only hills it's really it's not mountains. So the, their idea was to have a Gori in there. So when the tank and invasion was coming in to be able to break the main [00:25:00] highway to covering half, but the weapon never arrived from the outside.
Even I came out for three days and we're not able to bring the weapons in. So, you know, that was if you ask, we couldn't do that. And then when the invasion took place, none of us at all were advised of the incoming invasion. We were surprised we were actually learning about the invasion from the Cuban radio. On the of April, I was in Havana.
I had a lady who was driving me. I was supposed to go to GU to another member of my team and then go to Santa Clara, who was my, what I was of that province. But then that morning that's when hell broke Havana was hear this military music. Calling all this different military unit to report to their different.
So, you know, that day we learned about the, now it was a disaster cast, very intelligently, what he was [00:26:00] every big, including Havana. He will go house by house block by block and surrounded with troops. And if you were males, you know, military and were between 15, 16 year old to older to people, unless you were 90 years old and you were not assigned to a military unit, even though they had, maybe you were member of the communist party, but you were not assigned to a military unit, they would pick you up and put you on what we could call a concentration camp temporarily.
They had like baseball field in Havana with high fences that they put up to two 50,000 people in there. They laid the theater Lanita theater, which is capacity for 5,000 people, 5,500 people put in there. So actually he was, he was able to completely dismember the internal resistance who was very well organized.
Now, a lot of the people that they captured during the bay of pick were later released. [00:27:00] Cause they had no idea who they had, but it had the effect that it completely destroyed , the capability of all of these planting unit that were operating Havana and all main cities.
Justin: Why were they able to take them down so quickly?
Were those groups already thoroughly infiltrated or did they just pick up everyone?
Felix: No, they just went hiding by somebody's house. Nobody was infiltrated, really. They just went house by house , let's say if I was there, I was 19 or 20 years old. I was 19 when I was 19 one. Was there, , are you assigned to me a military unit? No.
They don't care. They pick you up and put you in a temporary concentration camp..
Justin: Oh boy.
Felix: That's why they completely destroy the, the internal resistance. I would say about 90% of the resistance were captured and putting, and 90% of them were released because they had no idea who they had after, after the, who they were able to completely, disarticulate the operational capability that we had in the cities.
Justin: Hmm, man, that's unfortunate. [00:28:00] Prior to that, how strong was the resistance? Did they have a real chance of overturning Castro's new government?
Felix: Yes, I would say yes. It was very, very, very strong. They were able to conduct a lot of sabotage in the cities. They were very well organized. but unfortunately that happened, actually I was very lucky cause the lady who was driving me, we were hiding in apartment Havana and her father was very close to a Spanish Embassy.
So the head of intelligence of the Spanish embassy call himself the head of a propaganda, of the embassy, he knew where she was staying and he went to her cause he knew that they were coming through that area to do that thing, to surround the whole block and, you know, taking everybody in prison.
So before they arrived to the apartment building where I was, he took her and I went along with her to his apartment and he had diplomatic immunity in. So in an apartment building near the ocean there, beautiful tall building. And that's where I survived. Actually, when we were coming down the elevator into his diplomatic car, [00:29:00] it was a Chevrolet, 1956 Chevrolet with diplomatic plate, we were just getting to the car when there was a militia truck pulling right behind us and surrounding the building and taking everybody in prison.
So I spent over a week in his home, then he told me I could not stay any longer. Cause another eight people was hiding his apartment building and they finally got us to be accepted in a different embassy. So I went to Venezuela embassy as a political exile, and I spent the next five and a half months in the Venezuela embassy until I got a safe conduct and I left Cuba on the 13th of September of 1961 for Venezuela, which so I spent two weeks then in the beginning of October of that year, I was in Miami.
And within two weeks I was back in Cuba, like seven times, you know, bringing the people and all of that to, to an area that had kept in contact with Daniels, an infiltration team.
Justin: So was it different coming back after all that time? I mean, was there security [00:30:00] on the, on the shores? Was it, was it much better after the first attempted invasion?
Felix: No, no, no. We, we, we could with no problem. We never had any problem going back and forth.
And you were bringing weapons and, and that sort of thing to the remaining resistance members,
right. Weapons to give it to some of the resistant people, bringing teams, infiltration team that went in with intelligence purpose at that time.
Okay. How, how successful were those teams? Were they able to accomplish their missions?
Yeah, they were, they were able to bring a lot of information from, unfortunately, one of the guys that I infiltrated that was, Maloy Villo Castellano, he was captured and he was executed, by firing squad, but they continued cooperate after that was, then later it was called operation Mongoose was actually continuation of what basically intelligence operation into Cuba.
Like in 1965, I went with a team into the, at the, of pine. They called the Isla de la Juventud, the bigger island south of Cuba. And we went with a team to photograph a [00:31:00] Soviet submarine base . So I didn think about it, went inside to picture of that, and came back again, but it was just for intelligence purpose. It was not really an offensive operation anymore.
Ah,
Justin: okay. So there were some other attacks going on as part of Mongoose weren't there. I know about the, the guys in the swift boats, right. That were operating off the coast.
Felix: I was part of that. Now let me tell you, there's a lot of people in the brigade that believe that President Kennedy was a traitor, okay? And they hate him.
I have a completely different view about President Kennedy, 'cause I have the experience that other people didn't have, okay. I believe president Kennedy was a young president, very ill advised with very little experience and we pay the price. Alright? But I don't think he's trade a trader at all. And I think he picked with his life what he was planning to do, you know, after he took full responsibility for the Bay of Pigs
what he did was he created the incentive to American corporation for tax exemption to be, to [00:32:00] get enough money to pay the ransom for to bring the brigade out of prison, which he did. So brigade came out prison in December of 1962. We also flew, PanAmerican donated the plane for free, and they flew up from a Cuban military base to homestead air force base into the United States the whole brigade with a few exceptions.
Now, members of my infiltration team were not part of that negotiation. Because we did not land there militarily and they actually view us as a spy cause we came in clandestine into Cuba. So my infiltration team sustained four executions. Four of them were executed by firing a squad. One of them was still defending a safe house. About 14 of them were captured and then spent the next 18 years in Cuban prison before they were released,
Justin: 18 years?
Felix: There was one brigade member that spent 25 years in prison, 'cause Castro had a personal grudge against, against him.
Justin: I was not aware of that. Is [00:33:00] he, did he return to the United States after that or stay in Cuba?
Felix: Yeah, no. He returned after 25 years. He live here in Miami now,
Justin: My gosh.
Felix: He and his wife. We met with president Kennedy at the orange bowl in December of 1960, the end of December of 1962. Actually I was able to shake president Kennedy's hand when he came to say to members of the, I remember telling him we shall return.
And then he promised that day that he will return the flag brigade was given to him in custody very soon in a free Havana. And I think he really meant that and it did cost his life. Now what he did after that was he opened the armed forces of the United States for the brigade officer. So in, in February of 1963, two hundred and twelve officers of the brigade went, to Fort Bennings Georgia to be trained as a second Lieutenant in the United state army Navy air force and Marine Corps, all four different uniform.
Okay. [00:34:00] I was in the army. I went in as a second li attending in the us army and we trained there for about eight months. OK. At the same time, he opened the armed forces of the United States for Cuban. So a lot of brigade members joined the, the, the training camps in for Jackson, for example, for troops, not only brigade member, but Cubans from the Miami area, there were a thousand of Cubans who joined at the arm forces of the United States.
The idea was to use them as troops and we have officers to invade Cuba again. Now, unfortunately, president Kennedy was assassinated in late 1963, and that was everything, you know, took a completely different course. Bobby Kennedy was very strongly in support of our operation. Now, before the president was assassinated, he approved the covert operation to overthrow Fidel Castro and we had bases in Costa Rica and Nicaragua in Nicaragua we had a Naval base. We had a base for training commanders and [00:35:00] training guerrilla in Nicaragua. And in Costa Rica, we had a base, to train the infiltration teams and also communication site. Now, after the president was assassinated, they continued with the operation for respect to assassinated president cause Bobby Kennedy was still the attorney general.
Bobby Kennedy was the direct contact between our team and the administration. Then later on that operation was terminated by Johnson in 1965 and members that were officers in brigade were told, they actually saying. Joseph was a special assistant to the president first with Kennedy and then with Johnson and Joseph for our people in, in, in the army and differences of the arm forces of the United States and the promise of President Kennedy to liberate Cuba die with president Kennedy, that the administration no longer was holding the promise of the president to liberate Cuba
they wanted to [00:36:00] stay and make a career. The armed forces at the United, they were welcome to it, but we know that no longer there was a commitment by the administration to liberate Cuba. So some of our people left, they went to civilian life and some of them stay in the armed forces. You got to the rank of Colonel.
Most of them, General Oligo became a two-star general of the national guard in Washington national guard, but there was no longer the commitment of the president. And when the president was assassinated, our team went with some of his closer advisors to pay the condolence to Bobby Kennedy. And the first thing that Bobby Kennedy told him was my brother had two big enemies.
One was The Mafia and the other one was Fidel Castro. I believe the last one, Fidel Castro was the one And I believe it. So also.
Justin: Oh, you think it was... Castro was involved?
Felix: Absolutely. You have to take, for example, in consideration that Oswell went to Mexico and he was in the Cuban embassy for four hours before he went to assassinate the president. And he was very close to the Cuban [00:37:00] powers. There's a lot of movies here of Oswell in new Orleans advocating for the lifting of the embargo in support of the Cuban government.
Now there was also a Cuban captain at the time. Fabian Escalante who was a sharp shooter, spoke. Fluent English was in Dallas. On that day that the president was assassinated. And then he was taken out on a private plane to Mexico back into Cuba. He later became a general in Cuba. I think is retire now. And there was actually, I remember reading in the paper in a very small article from the Herald, that president Johnson advised and mentioned the fact that the FBI had told president the participation of the Cuban government in the assassination of the president.
And it was covered up because of national security consideration. If at that time, the U.S. Administration would have learned officially that there was a foreign government, the government of Cuba involved in the assassination of the U.S. President. He had no choice but to invade Cuba, and they knew that [00:38:00] there were still about three or four offensive missiles inside Cuba that were arrived there before that famous show when Khrushchev was bringing a bunch of missiles in boat that had to be returned during the October Crisis.
Before the October Crisis, he was able to infiltrate two or three offensive nuclear missions to Cuba, which are probably still there for the fact that they're obsolete by now. Cause they're pretty old. And the people talk about the Kennedy-Khrushchev Treaty... Now when Khrushchev broke down the ships and they sign the treaty, the United States said that they were not going to invade Cuba.
They had different kind criteria. That had to be fulfilled. One thing and very important was that there would be a United States inspector going to Cuba to verify that they are taking out those three or four offensive missiles that we knew that were already inside. And Fidel refused to allow any inspector to go into the island to to verify that. And therefore the treaty was invalid. That's why Kennedy opened up this training camp in central [00:39:00] America for us.
And his brother and other people were really, they were very preparing the assassination of Fidel Castro in Cuba.
Justin: Hmm. my gosh. Yeah, that makes a compelling case. Certainly. So after that determined that the invasion, the second invasion would not go forward. Did you leave the army at that point or did you continue on in?
Felix: No, I let the army, when our team asked me to leave the army to go with him, to this operation in central America, I became head of head of communication.
Actually, when he came to me, I, I was finishing the course with all my friends in Fort Bennings, I was supposed to go to Fort Hanover in Virginia for intelligence training. So our team asked me and say, look, the last time the Americas were the one who controlled the operation of The Bay of Pigs, we had no say, which is true. Our people didn't participate any in the planning of The Bay of Pigs.
Now he told me this time we are going be the ones controlling everything we're going receive weapons, whatever we request, we're going to get it from this [00:40:00] administration. And we will be taking the responsibility. So I ask him, what guarantee do I have that president? Kennedy is really behind me, this operation, and he told me, what guarantee do you need?
I said, well, you want me to leave the army, go to a motel and being trained by the CIA, tell the president, whoever your contact is in the administration, that they should give me the training in the U.S. Army uniform here in Fort Bennings. And if they do that, I'll resign my commission and go with you. So he told me, okay, go and see your supervisor and ask if you wanna go to a special communication training.
Of course, my supervisor was a major of Puerto Rican origin, Major Angel Torres, and he had no idea what I was talking about or went to see him. So I went to see Major Torres I say here, Lieutenant Rodriguez, would like to change my, uh, my training for special communication training. Now the major look at me and say, look, Lieutenant.
First of all, as far as I know, there is no such thing as special communication training. So if it [00:41:00] were it's too late to change, you're going to go to intelligence training. Then he asked me, who told me, I told him I could not tell he threw me out of his office. All right. So we graduated from that training. We came to Miami, for two weeks before we went back to be reassigned to a different, post that we were going to.
And then a week before, before after I arrived here, I got a call from the recruiting center for the Army, asked me to call Major Torres immediately in Fort Bennings. So when I called Major Torres, he told me Lieutenant Rodriguez, come to Fort Bennings immediately, we have here Mr. Musa Mr. Flannigan, to give you your special communication training.
So I select a couple of guys. We, all three of us went to Fort Bennings, Georgia, we were given empty building inside the military base. Of course I spoke English cause the other two didn't. So we had a Puerto Rican Sergeant by the last name of Castro of all last names to actually be the translator for the group. We spend about a month and a half or two months taking this communication training inside Fort Bennings in uniform of the U.S. Army.
Then we [00:42:00] resigned to the commission and join him in central America.
Justin: Wow. What was the Central American mission that you were involved in?
Felix: We had the swift boat that we were operating in Central America and we were conducting raids against Cuban targets.
And at the same time they were promoting...the were pomrotion the assassination of, of Fidel Castro in Cuba. And a silencer was prepared and sent to Spain to be given to [someone] in Cuba who was supposed to assassinate Castro. With the full knowledge of Bobby Kennedy.
Justin: I've got it. Yeah. I know that that went on for a while. Eventually those missions shut down and those boats, they went to The Congo right? When
Che Guevara went to The Congo.,
Felix: when they, we had, , like two swift boats operating, then we have some fast boats We had one, two huge mother ships. a, two hundred and some footer, one who was anchor in Monkey Point, the Naval base in Nicaragua..
We had the, the center of, of intelligence and we had the center of communication in that boat. And the only big one was the one we that went around Cuba towing this [00:43:00] two sweep boat to conduct great raid operations against Castro.
Justin: Right. I had a really good interview, not long ago with, Jim halls, who I'm sure you know, about his time in the Congo with those swift boats.
That was an episode a few weeks ago.
Felix: Yeah, in 1965. 1965 our operation was terminated by Johnson
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Felix: And they took the boats in Cuba and they, and they were flowing to The Congo and they were operated on the Tanganyika River. The Makasi i s an operation of the CIA that went from 1962 to 1966, In the Congo. By the way, this last, Saturday I had in our new museum garden, the Deputy Chief of Staff of President Felix from what they call now, the, The Democratic Republic of Congo and was she so impressed when they saw that corner was dedicated to the Makasi and to the Congo that she called the president from there.
And the president is gonna come to New York of some visit and they agreed that he was gonna come to Miami to visit us at the museum to see that corner we dedicated to The Congo.
Wow, that's
Justin: [00:44:00] fantastic. Is that, is that coming up in the next few weeks or few months or something?
Felix: In December, December of this year.
Justin: Okay. Yeah, that's wonderful. I still have not visited the museum myself because I came down in April of 2021 for the 60th anniversary at Tamiami airport, but I didn't go to the museum that day because everyone was at the airport already. But I'm definitely looking forward to coming in myself as soon as I can.
Felix: Actually we have outside an M-41 tank, similar to the one who landed at the Bay of Pigs, I got it from the Army. Then we got one original plane that brought us to the rescue, the Skymaster, that was used to, to recover balseros during that time. And then I was able to get it to me, five years to get it, a B26 that was in Guatemala is the plane where all our pilot were trained in Retalhuleu, Guatemala, and original plane. It took me so long because it was in display It cause by the Guatemalan Air Force in the area where they have the mechanics, of the Guatemalan Air Force. So it took me three different ministry defense to finally convince the president Now [00:45:00] we have that plane there.
Justin: That, yeah, that just arrived fairly recently. Didn't it?
Felix: No, it arrived about a couple of years ago. A couple of years ago.
Justin: Okay, good. Yeah. I saw some posts about it on the, on the Facebook page.
Felix: Right.
Justin: That's wonderful. Yeah. You have a great collection there. I've seen it, in photos only so far, but I'm looking forward to see it in person as well.
Felix: Absolutely. We're looking forward to your visit.
Justin: Good. So this takes us up to kind of, you said 1966 was when the Makasi operations ended. That takes us up to 67, which of course found you in Bolivia. So can you talk a little bit about how you ended up in Bolivia, searching for Che Guevara?
Felix: Sure. Now lemme tell you little anecdote that happened before, 1962, when I came back from Cuba in 1961, I continued to, with the CIA. Doing trips to Cuba back and forth 1962, then I actually, married my present wife. This August would be 60 years marriage.
Justin: Oh, wow.
Felix: Our 60th anniversary. I had met my wife in Cuba when I was 14 and she [00:46:00] was 17. From the time I saw her, I told myself she's going to be my wife.
Now I was 14 years old at the time. Then after that, she came to school here, in Virginia, I came to school in Pennsylvania. We wrote a few letters, that was it.. Then later on when I was in the Bay in Cuba, infiltrated, I went to visit her at home and she wasn't there, then in 1962, she finally came from Cuba. Within six months, we were married. OK. We got married on the 25th of August in 1962. I told my wife, I want to leave the CIA.
I want to go to a civilian life. We going to make a life together, but let it be knowing there is anything serious about overthrowing Castro I will join that. If you agree to that, we get married. . Even though I love you dearly, you know, my mother cannot even stop me. So she made a mistake to agree to that.
we got hours. Here we go. I start working a company called ACE letter service, uh, that made some propaganda for the Hotel [00:47:00] during the, the seasons, because at that time, the Miami Beach Hotel only opened during the winter. They were closed the summer. And then I was given pay $1 an hour and then my got me a better job in a company that had to do with meat and hamburger, all this at a $1.35 an hour
so I started working in there, here comes October. I get a call from Tom Cline from the CIA, and he asked me he wanted to meet me after I finished my job in the parking lot of the Howard and Johnson across from the University of Miami. So after five o'clock, I drive in my little car, to the parking lot.
He was there with his big car. I jumped from my car into his car. And he looked at me very seriously. I say, Felix, the Marines are going land in Cub and we need you. And I look at him very seriously. And Tom, the Marines are going land in Cuba, what the hell do you need me for? I mean it was ridiculous. And he told me, well, you know how to operate a radio beacon.
So we like you to parachute behind a Soviet, missile base [00:48:00] near Santa Clara. So nearby, you can set up a radio beacon at a pre-located area we're gonna give you so that our Air Force can hit with precision the air base or missile base. At the time, didn't have the GPS precision equipment that we have nowadays. So I agree.
So from there I could not even call my wife. I was taken to a safe house. And they send an instructor, to teach me how to do point of contact when you jump. So my only practice as a paratrooper was to jump from a table a little bit higher and try to hit the ground distribute the weight of my body in three different points. That was my training.
OK. That day I could not even my wife downtown, when she worked, she waited for two hours. Then she took a bus and went to our apartment. And that night, that's when President Kennedy declared the October Crisis. So she felt, you know, she figured out it had something to do with that. So after that failed, you know, because Khrushchev, the day, I was really going to go and parachute in [00:49:00] Cuba, that's the day that Khrushchev backed down and took all this boat back to the Soviet union.
And it was the crisis was, terminated. So I, I was not with the job but from there I continued to work with the CIA and then joined the army with our team.
Justin: So, how did you end up in Bolivia in, was it 67 or were you already there by the beginning of 67?
Felix: No, no, before... before that after all this thing, with our team in Central America, in '66 I went with the Agency and they sent me to Venezuela to train a, set up a communication system for the CFA, for Servicia Formacion Fuerza Armada or the armed force intelligence service of Venezuelan army and also advised them in the, what they call the, Los Cazadores, which is like the special forces of the Venezuelan Army, who were at that time fighting, the guerilla that Cuba has implemented with Captain Ochoa who later as a general was executed.
He went there in, in Venezuela with Cubans and Venezuelans, and they had guerilla warfare Venezuela. So I went there to help them with communication. Then when I [00:50:00] came back in 1967 that's when they, actually, Came to Miami to select two people from 16to go to Boli via.
Justin: Hmm. Okay. Okay. I've got it. And were you a CIA employee at this time or were you still like, contractingwith them?
Felix: I was only by, on the contract.
Justin: Okay.
Felix: I really didn't have any right to retirement. It seemed like that during that time.
Justin: Okay. They just came to you when they needed you then basically, which sounds like it was pretty awesome.
Felix: Yeah, we, we were called, uh, what call principal agents. Okay. We had no people called handler. It's only the movies. You know, we didn't have handlers. Everybody called to the people who run agents, the handler, they were called case officer. They were the one who control us. The name handler is only using the movies.
Justin: OK.
Felix: So we, I had a case officer who was running the operations against Castro, and he was the one who was controlling us. Then I got a call one day to meet this guy who came from Washington in 1967. His name was Larry Sternfield. He was pretty high in the [00:51:00] agency from Latin America division. He came down interview 16 Cubans to take two, to go Bolivia.
And the reason they were using Cubans, it was because there was a prohibition in Bolivia by Ambassador Henderson, the U.S. ambassador who prohibited any U.S. citizen to participate in area of danger or combat because from 1966 and before they were already advising from Vietnam, they were already advisors coming back in plastic, back from Vietnam.
And they didn't want advisors coming back from plasticbag from South America.
Justin: Mm OK.
Felix: So they didn't wanna use any U.S. citizen areas of, danger. So we were not U.S. citizens at the time we were, I was not even a U.S. resident. I was just a refugee. So coming back and plastic bag was no problem would, would not be a big thing.
It was no American being killed. That's why they selected us to go for that mission there.
Justin: That's some coldhearted calculations there.
Felix: Yeah. So they selected two. I asked later on to Larry, you know why he [00:52:00] selected me. So I, he told me that every time after he finish an interview with one of the Cubans, he will tell him if I select you, when would you be ready to be mobilized?
And everybody would tell him, well, I need a few days. I need a week or two weeks, whatever it was always. Some period of time set up your, things at your et cetera, et cetera. My answer to him was, well, if I have time, I take my car. I drive to my home in Miami. I pick up my clothes. I say goodbye to my wife, to my two kids.
I come back and we leave. We don't have time for that. Giving me the phone. I call Rosa, and tell her I have to leave. And if we don't have time for that, let's go and give you her number and you call her and tell her I had to leave. And he told me nobody had told him that. That's why he selected me to go to that mission.
Justin: That makes sense. So it was you and one other then out of the 16? Yes.
Felix: Yes. Another one that came with me after we were selected, we went to Washington where we went to a safe house in Washington. We [00:53:00] were briefed, on everything, about what the guerilla were about. We were giving the names of the guerilla, as much information about them as possible, you know, and then, we came to Miami and then, we were flown in from Miami.
They were gonna go to Bolivia. We were flown in to New York in New York. They retrieved all of our true documentation. And we were giving that fake documentation that we were born in Puerto Rico. We said another name. My name was Felix Ramos rams. And then, with this new documentation, we bordered a brand new flight, was flying, stopping in Miami and then went directly to La Paz. They told us not to deplane in Miami, but we got to Miami and there was a problem with the radar. So we had to stay at the hotel in Miami. Then we flew straight to La Paz. Our case officer was waiting for us in La Paz. We arrived late. So they were in the hell of a hurry to take us. Cause we had a meeting with President Barrientos in his home, the two of us and the who was coming, who was going be [00:54:00] our case officer.
So we went to President René Barrientos Ortuño his home. We were told that we were experts in guerilla warfare. Then we talked to the president and he gave us ID cards from him, asking all the civilian military authority to give all the, whatever we request, they were supposed to support us. And then they took us to the Ministry of Defense with general.
Ovando Candilla, Alfredo Ovando Candilla the Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces. And he gave us a similar ID card from his office, telling all the civilian and personnel, military personnel to give all the support that captain, my name was Captain Felix Ramos, with request, , all three of us were giving the rank of captain in the Bolivian army for that operation.
Justin: Oh, wow. And so what was the mission exactly like, were you supposed to just locate and capture him or just gather intelligence on what going on or?
Felix: Oh we were advisors to the different units. Before we arrived there were about three or four Cubans that were assigned in La Paz to advise the Minister of [00:55:00] Interior in Intelligence. Okay. Cuban origin. And then the two of us went, to Santa Cruz de la Sierra, and then they had, a special forces team commanded by Papi Shelton. Who was training a second ranger battalion in counterinsurgency in an old sugar mill, abandoned sugar mill called La Esperanza.
So, first of all, we went there, we met Papi Shelton and then they divided two of us. My friend stayed at La Esperanza and he was training the intelligence team for the battalion. In my case, the assign me Santa Cruz to the headquarters of the, a division who was commanded by a Colonel and I was the personal advisor of the Colonel and the head of intelligence with major.
So whenever they, capture some document, something like that, I will fly in with the major to, you know, to see the documentation exploit intelligence of the documentation. And one time, for example, they had captured one guerilla, Castillo Chaves, and he, they were [00:56:00] holding him we flew in, on an air force, plane from Bolivia.
He and I went to, I guy and I was able to save his life. They didn't keep any prisoners, they already. had told the press that this guy was badly wounded. They were going to kill him and tell the press that he died from combat wounds, but was I able to secure his, release to us for intelligence purposes, which general Davi La Fuente was head of the army that I had met in a dinner in La Esperanza with the commander general Porter. And he was able to evoke the prisoner who value.
He was very, very valuable. He was the one gave, was the information, how Che would move around whenever shape moved from point a to point B. He divided his guerilla three groups. What they called Vanguard center and rearguard Vanguard had about four, five or six guerilla and, and Paco gave us the name of all five, six guerilla
and Che would be in the middle with the majority of the guerilla and then five or six, other guerilla was one kilometer behind and called the rear guard. So in case there is an ambush in process, he [00:57:00] would be able to maneuver in the middle and evade, the army. So we had of this name given by Paco when in late September, there was an encounter, but a unit commanded by a Bolivian Lieutentant we were told to go to this little town called Pucara to wait for him. He had killed three guerilla, he was bringing the three dead bodies to Pucara. So we went there and here about four o'clock in the afternoon, here comes Lieutenant Galindo with these three mules and top of every mule was one dead body.
One of them, we recognized as Coco Paredo, even had the driver license with him. He was the head of the guerrilla on the Bolivian side. The other one was Mario Gutierra, he was doctor and the other one was a Cuban at the time. We only knew like Miguel then later on, we learned Miguel was Captain Manuel Anton de Vosovios and Paco had told us they were member of the Vanguard.
So when I interviewed Lieutenant Galindo, I saw the guerilla in the distance, I start preparing the ambush on top of the hill. [00:58:00] And then the guerilla surprised me actually, what he saw was Che Guevara's group and the Vanguard was already coming up the hill. So that verified that that was Che Guevara's group. So with this information, when it was able to convince Colonel to call the two weeks, that was for graduation of the battalion who already have received a full training to cut it short, to move it into the operational area.
Cause first of all, it told me, Felix it's only two weeks for graduation! I said, mi Colonel, in two weeks. We have no idea where Che is. Right now we know he's right there. So he cut the training and he mobilized the battalion immediately. There were four companies that were mobilized to the operational area. One, stayed in Baligrande to be able to support the unit in operation with food, ammunition and communication.
All of that one company was assigned to the Rio Grande. So the guerilla could not move to the other side with the responsibility of another region, the region for, and then one company commanded by Captain Celso Torrelio later, he [00:59:00] later became president of Bolivia was sort of a in support of the searching company commanded by Gary Prado.
And that company was the, was the last point where she was. So they actually started the operation at the very beginning of October. It was a tremendous, luck to be able to get Che, believe me, it only happened once in a lifetime . We arrived into the area of operation. On the 1st of October, we start operating.
And on the weekend, on that second weekend, it was, actually it was October, the seventh and October, the seventh was a, Saturday, alright? I was installing some PRC 10 radios on three Bolivian aircraft, 86er, who had the capability of delivering 50 caliber machine and 2.75 rocket. But they did not have communication to communicate with the battalion in the ground, which meant they could not support air to ground support.
Cause they could not talk to the battalion. So they borrowed three PRC 10 radios one next to each [01:00:00] pilot of that plane. So they would be able to talk to the ground support. So I was finishing this third plane and it was on, on the, actually on a Sunday, on the 8th of October. When we received information that Papa Cansado.
So the major came to me capitan, we have information from the operational area, that the head of the guerilla is captured and he's alive, wounded. I didn't know whether it was Che Guevara or whetehr is was Indi Paredo, who was the head of the guerilla on the on the Bivian side. So I flew in the back of the second 86. And when we flew over the area, they told us that, that it was the foreigner. So we knew that Che Guevara was the one who was captured there. And we came back. Now we could not give them, air to ground support.
Cause they were very close. We were afraid of, of killing soldiers, they were fighting very close to each other. So we, came back Colonel dispatches the Lieutenant Colonel's helicopter to drop in the area to try to gather all of Che's belongings. So people don't take them as a [01:01:00] souvenir and try to, to interrogate Che and he came. So that night we celebrated, in, in a hotel and there with no electricity it was Candles.
And I asked the Colonel if I could accompany him on the following day was, it was a Monday, October the ninth. So he talked to his officer and he told them that, he was very grateful for everything that I do in helping them being a Cuban. And he knew how much harm this guy had done to my country. So he'd take in mind he would take me with him in following this. So that's how I turned to fly with him him in the helicopter. We left seven o'clock in the morning from Baligrande and we land next to where, where Che Guevara was about seven 30 in the morning.