Ep.247 “Facebook Groups For Massage Therapists: Helpful or Hateful?” - Part 1 Panel Debate

Music. And we're live. Hey, people. Look at all the people in the live land.

How lovely to see you. Sorry to keep you waiting, but thank you for joining us tonight. Welcome to episode 247 of the Sports Therapy Association podcast. My name is Matt Phillips, creator of runchatlive.com. And as always, this episode is being recorded live at eight o'clock on a Tuesday on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel. In this 13th episode now of our reflection series, we've got a part one and a part two for you.

They're both panel debates with the topic, Facebook groups for massage therapists, helpful or hateful, which is a bit of a clickbait title, but if you can't beat them, join them. And it did cause some discussions outside of tonight. So that's what the aim of that was.

It is a very important topic, very topical, been causing a lot of discussion, rightfully so, with many less experienced therapists in Facebook groups feeling the need to post anonymously in fear of a cascade of judgment and retribution for more, generally more experienced therapists trying to promote evidence-informed practice within the massage and manual therapy industry.

So what we're going to do is in part one tonight, we're going to hear for some therapists who feel that the judgment and criticism seen in some very expert groups is sometimes not so constructive, could be put forwards differently, and in fact can do some harm to less experienced practitioners in the industry.

And then in part two next week, which is going to be recorded on Tuesday, July the 8th, we'll be hearing from a panel of therapists who present the case that there is a real need for a cleanup in our industry and that it may ruffle some feathers. Facebook groups can be a breeding ground of misinformation that ultimately is doing harm to not just our industry, but also our clients and our patients who are paying for our services.

So in advance, I'll say thank you to everybody who's volunteered to come on the show tonight and next week. A lot of people haven't been on before.

And talking of that, we're going to bring up some very soon who are really nervous and they're down in the lobby at the moment just comparing and their garments for heart rates and things like that honestly i'm not exaggerating that's not a metaphor it's really happening literally um but before i do bring up the panel for this week and i'd like to say thank you to my guest last week cecily hislop of south phoenix massage therapy who

reflected on episode 118 of the sports therapy association podcast which was called massage and manual therapy a modern view and we recorded that back in 2022 with paul coker and Anna Maria Mazzieri of the ST School. Due to some connection issues, those of you who joined us live last week, you'll realise that there was some terrible lagging. I'm not going to blame it on Cornwall. That would be totally irresponsible of me. But there were some issues which meant that we re-recorded it.

And a huge thanks goes out to Cecily, who's actually in the house tonight. So thank you, Cecily, for stepping up and re-recording it with me.

Uh one afternoon because it was a great conversation about and it kind of ties in with tonight as well we did mention social media and how we do need to evolve as an industry so it's there as always on all popular podcast apps and on youtube and i would recommend that you in fact listen to it as a kind of trilogy of what's going to go on tonight next week right then i've left them down i'm hoping they're still all there some of them are quite pale faces but we're going to bring them

up hopefully as we start tonight's show before i do that just thank you to people who have joined us in the Live Lounge. It's great to see you here. If you are here, then I can bring up your comments like that. Cecily Hissop says, evening, my lovelies, in a Cornish accent. Thank you, Cecily, again for last week. Brilliant. You went above and beyond. Stevie Barr, who's going to be with us next week in the panel, is here taking notes.

Sir Glenn Murphy, MBE, Sir Glenn, how are you? Is with us saying, love, set and match. Oops, I mean, evening or ice. I caught the tennis as well on TV, just in case someone made that. Tris Attenborough, who's going to be here next week, is here as well taking notes. And Imi Tester is here as well, who says, evening, listening as I drive home until I lose signal in darkest Cotswolds as usual.

Right. Let's bring people up in no particular order. I should bring them up all up on the screen now and we should crack on with this episode. Music. You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence back into soul tissue therapy.

Okay have we got everybody panel i think we have i know you guys um are nervous and i really appreciate it especially the topic like this so thank you very much um hopefully as the conversation goes on you will feel those nerves disappear as you let us as you show experiences i thought we'd start just a little introduction so people can recognize your voice really for the podcast in particular so when i say your name if you'd be so kind just to say

where you are in the world and what you do for a living and maybe on a scale of one to ten how nervous you are let's start with Emma B. Hi I'm Emma I live in northeast Lincolnshire but I won't say where because it's not the nicest place. It really isn't, honestly. That's fine. And for a living, what do you do, Emma? I'm a qualified sport rehabilitator, but I'm just doing a master's at the minute in physiotherapy. Excellent. Thanks for joining us, Emma. Michelle Hazel? Yeah.

Yeah, Michelle. My name is Michelle Hazel. I'm North Lincolnshire, so I'm probably not far from you, Emma. So I'm just a level three sports massage therapist. I qualified in the end of 2021. one. But I'm sort of on the fence on what I want to do next and trying to get information on what to do next. Sometimes going into these little groups, it's not always helpful. I think you get bombarded. So I'm sort of on the fence where I want to go next with my qualification.

But I've got my own little thing on the side of the house, converted garage, and I've got enough clients, but it's just what to do next, really. So that's where I am at.

That's a really good hook, which we'll delve into later. So I think I remember as we were talking in preparation for this didn't you say you felt pressured to do level four because so many people are telling you you're not doing anything but level three it's rubbish and all we're doing is and yet you're thinking actually i quite like my level three it suits me so brilliant that's a great yeah thank you and for coming along michelle who's next my little list here fiona wright how are you i'm all

right thank you yeah i'm in telford i'm a sports massage therapist i've actually been in level three for 10 years so you can i must be a music therapy 10 years fantastic and you're pretty hot on your gait analysis knowledge as well aren't you, oh a little bit of laggy now with with fiona who's frozen okay and we'll come back to fiona, danielle peters nice to see you back again thank you for joining us. Bonjour. So, Danielle Peters, sports therapist, graduate sports therapist.

Can you hear me? It's okay. Yeah, cool. With a master's in biomechanics. Yeah. And yeah, I have a clinic down in Gatwick. That's what I was going to say. Down in Sussex. Body, health, Gatwick. We'll give links, if you like, to all of your various businesses and enterprises in the show notes to people. Well, actually, it depends how the discussion goes tonight. You might decide, please, Matt, don't tell anybody where I am, but we'll come to that as we go along.

Right. Thanks, Danielle. Thanks again for giving up your time as well. Right. I think we'll jump straight into it. Let me just bring Emma up here again, back into the panel. There we go. Right. So like I say, yeah, thanks for giving up your time.

Facebook groups of massage therapists, helpful or hateful? A little bit of clickbait, but when I suggested the title, you were like, yes, bang on.

That's exactly what they are, hateful. so let's hear some of that then maybe who should we I thought first of all we start with some experience which kind of led to you being here so maybe Michelle would you like to start with what happened to you yeah so I started off doing fitness and sort of dabbled had a few treatments all for chiro and things and went and had some massage and thought oh I can do this I can help people myself so at

the end of COVID I did my level three and on finishing that which actually for me, even though I've done all my fitness stuff, I find it quite challenging to do that qualification. So I set up my own little Instagram and Facebook page. And then I remember putting a post up and what they teach on your level three about the benefits of massage. I put something along them lines, you know, what you get told about lymphatic drainage and stuff. And then I got a post the following day off somebody.

And I did check their sort of profile and they didn't have any friends or anything.

So I'd obviously used an alias. but they basically said I shouldn't be teaching or you know sort of really treating people and that I was taking money off people I was lying to them so I think I'd come onto the SDA page to sort of get a little bit of support really and then I did get support I have to say I did get support of some people but a lot of people were like you need to get your narrative sorted out but to me back then narrative what what does that

mean there was no clarification so I sort of come back and thought, I can't be treating people. I've been taught a load of rubbish. I spent a lot of money on my course and put the time and effort in. And now I've been told that what I've been taught was a load of baloney, really. So it sort of put me on a little bit of a hover. But people on the page were just saying that you need to go and look for the narrative.

Where do you look? What am I getting wrong. There was no sort of clarification on where to go, apart from, I think Gary was lovely. He'd said, you know, I can give you a ring and give you some guidance. But I was just fresh out the doors and sort of put my brakes on straight away, really. So it sort of, it did not my confidence that people were not giving me friendly guidance. They were just taking an opportunity to tell me all the things that I was doing wrong, really.

And everybody started from where I am I you know I think they just forget that what they may have been taught and gone through the years some people may have been doing this for years and built on the foundation and they know their stuff now but at some point they will have started where I did but I think it's like when people learn to drive isn't it and then you get behind a learner driver you hate the learner driver and that's what I felt like going

into the group and then reading comics I sort of I was then afraid to sort of comment again as myself because I was reading other people's comments and the sort of feedback they were getting. So then I just started reading and thinking, I can't post and ask questions because I'm going to get this response. So that sort of put me off posting on anything really or asking advice anywhere really as a newbie.

And I still feel like a newbie now. So, you know. Okay. Thank you. No, thanks for sharing that. A common story. And I want to make sure that tonight we don't get into the topic of a lot of courses out there are kind of like poorly put together. They're very old. Once upon a time, they were good, but they're missing information. We know that. And it will take a long time for particularly the massive courses for them to change all their exam papers and all their syllabi and everything.

I mean we can try but in the meantime there are private colleges which are delivering kind of more up-to-date stuff but i think the important thing is that is regardless of that yeah the comments were made and the words were used which made you feel like yeah i've just paid loads of money on rubbish yeah and it hit you pretty hard does that ring bells with other people on the panel has that happened to anybody else kind of if you remember

coming fresh out were you greeted with the same kind of comments yes yeah absolutely Emma tell us Emma mine is very very similar to Michelle I have just qualified as a level four I think it was within about two or three months and I asked a question about dry needling best courses best place to go I did get some really good answers I did follow you know where everybody sent me to pass the course no problems and I had just set up my own my very first

business page and you know where it's just kind of up and coming you got plenty of new followers because you're suddenly very new.

And one person from the group had gone through my personal profile to find my business profile to then make comments um because I you know where you put in about you know kind of a new thing coming soon to the business and he had written where is the evidence for this there was about 20 questions where's the evidence for this you know along the lines of I'm a charlatan charging money for rubbish and I just I know it had been up there a couple of hours by the time I had realized

I felt I know I'm only five foot but I felt very very small very embarrassed and absolutely gutted that something that I thought was private and local to me somebody had gone and tracked me down and then gone and fired all these questions at me knowing he knows I was new at the time I just felt completely exposed and it was absolutely horrendous and I have asked very very minimal questions in that group since I have to be desperate to kind of put something forward in there Thank you.

Yeah. So similar story. It's going to be, I'm so, I really thank you for sharing these because although so far as only two stories, I think that I hear that we get people writing to the STA and saying this happened to me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it happens so much. And it's going to be so interesting for anybody who's got a bit more experience to listen back to this and just think, Ooh, okay. Cause I think that's the problem. I don't believe there's as many.

Arses out there who just do it to bring you down I think it's people just don't realize how harming words can be I like to think that maybe that's me being a bit glass half full but or not Fiona do you think there's arses out there or is it just people who don't really think about their words what do you think Fiona?

I think they're just new isn't it there are yeah I think a lot yeah I think there but I think on the whole people are very passionate about you know becoming improving the industry and sometimes forgetting with them you know you do feel quite ashamed sometimes if you don't know everything if you ask the wrong question I haven't had an experience but that's only because I don't post anything so I'm paraphrasing anything especially on my business page you know it's my livelihood i

if i don't know in a month you know this is for me yeah that's such a shame and it is a real shame because i've had the pleasure of meeting you in person i've chatted with you and you've and you've got so many great ideas and you're so inquisitive and you and and when you trust somebody in front of you as it should be the case then then you ask great questions and it creates so it's such a shame that.

You know, you're not being able to contribute to any form just by asking questions that everyone's thinking sort of stuff. So that's interesting as well. It hasn't happened to me, but that's because I just don't go into these groups because I'm too scared to. Yeah, another side of things. Dani, you've been around the blog a few times. I don't. How does this make you all feel? How does it make you feel? No, what I mean by that is you've, yeah.

Sorry, those first two stories were horrendous to hear. I am genuinely really sorry that you had to go through that. And for people to put down your qualifications, that's absolutely mental to me. I can't believe anyone would do that. I'm lucky no one's said that. I had someone tell me to my face, funny enough, when I just graduated and a classic couldn't find a job, so I was working in a bar. And they told me my degree was a waste of time, which was fun.

That was a really sad day when you can't find a job.

You're like, oh, no. but uh who cares we've got a nice unit now so sort of but yeah like he's still at some bar in ibiza ordering drinks isn't he no it was a really posh hotel i was working in and um lady had an anatomy book out and i was like oh you study anatomy that's really cool trying to make conversation i said oh i'm a sports therapist and she'd obviously had too many cocktails and she came to the bar like she's doing me a favor she's like might as well

work your way up here there's no job There's no career in sports therapy. I was like, I don't know. Yeah, I was well done. When I'm crying my eyes out, I was like, mom, it's awful. You know what? She left behind her certificate for anatomy and I shredded it. And it was the best shred of my life. No words. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. So, sorry, my dog is chatting to everyone. She's decided now to bark.

Yeah so i'm gonna get a touch that's fine sorry my dog is barking um but uh yeah with regards to me i have asked a couple of questions before in the past and i have like the majority of comments are usually quite good but there's always that one person who makes you feel very very small and and yeah i think one time i'm pretty confident the best of times so i think i i'd said to them that was very rude of you to write and the admin came in and actually deleted their comment completely because

it was totally inappropriate and it wasn't helpful you know a lot of us work by ourselves so actually we use these communities to kind of just bounce ideas around which is totally fine and it should be met with questions and then maybe something helpful as well like by all means further us you know give me a bit more information we can't diagnose online or anything like that but like it should.

Be it should be more met with a bit more like softness I mean I mean I was looking up earlier there's that obviously that quote isn't there from um Mike Tyson to quote the boxing world you know social media made you all too comfortable with disrespect and not getting punched in the face for it and it's so true isn't it like how many times have you been a little bit ballsy because there's no one in front of us so yeah like I do think sometimes

there's a little bit of confidence and quick writing without thinking which isn't necessarily like personal it's just sometimes how it and sometimes it can read a bit bad as well it can be read quite bright because you can't see emotion but yeah like I'm lucky that my my qualification on on social media hasn't been questioned I'm very fortunate but yeah I have asked questions before and been met with you're an idiot it is interesting isn't it um.

I want to get on I think there was something well then, Sorry, say again. I'm sorry. I think I listened to the Cecily Hislop podcast that you did and you said something in there when there was a chat that you walked up to him and you said, I don't know whether to give you a hug or punch you in the face. And that's because of whatever he'd written on somebody or how he came across. But actually in person, he was really nice.

And I think that may be the case with some of the people that are posting stuff for us. That actually in person, they probably are really nice, but sometimes they just don't know how to articulate in a more personable way when somebody actually really needs help at a much more, I don't know, nice level. But we've lost the ability to be nice to people, I think. And I think the internet actually allows people to be rude and it's not acceptable always or anytime, really.

Yeah, I think you're right. It's a problem which is across social media, isn't it?

And I worry about, oh, I sound so old now, but I worry about the younger generations because if they're losing these skills if they're just talking to each other in short talk and not understanding you know the little ways of being kind to somebody with different words or persuasive or showing empathy then it's kind of quite scary how communication is going to go down the pan i want to get on the topic of anonymous posts because that's that's one that's

really kind of put me made me want to kind of do this episode because because of the things which you guys have discussed.

Quite a few therapists now not all of them which we can mention as well but some people are just posting anonymously because they're just worried about the return and the reply has anybody here posted anonymously and had any kind of repercussions from that no don't post anonymously, i don't know how to half and i think i i put one anonymously but it was i got some good feedback the type of feedback I got from my anonymous post was I'd had an inappropriate client

in and I think you would actually said to me like you know go on this podcast we've done a podcast about there's people on there that have gone through it and I think that's the sort of information you need clear and concise here's the information they've been through it what whereas people you know just dismissing what you've said but that's I'd put I think I put that one anonymously but I think in general if you read other people's sort of responses that prompts you to want to put

something anonymously because you don't like with emma you don't want them going on your personal page and ridiculing you or putting you down on your page so if you go anonymous they can't find you so and hopefully within some of the stuff that you get back there's something in there that is helpful even if there are a handful of people in there that are being else is. But yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting. In an ideal world, people would have the confidence to ask any question with their name and not feel kind of threatened at all. But it's not an ideal world, unfortunately. I must admit, some of the anonymous questions you think, what towel roll do you use? Why are they asking it anonymous? What's that about? Am I missing something here? Or what's that about? Is there something I'm missing with that? Or do you think? I think it's the sense of vulnerability.

I've been watching for a while, mostly because I don't like talking in there for the reasons we're speaking about. I think you should have the right to anonymity when you're walking into a lion's den, which is exactly how it feels when you're asking something that you feel is a stupid question.

Although we should all be very aware there's no such thing as a stupid question so you're making yourself vulnerable and if you've been through the pages and you've seen some of the replies you know you're going to get them same people coming at you with belittlement, ridicule. Making you feel just horrendous.

Why shouldn't we have? The fact that we even have to do that is pretty bad considering our careers are based around how to communicate effectively verbal and non-verbal for me non-verbal means writing typing and you know it's at the very heart of what we do and it's so ironic that these people struggle to communicate or put down in a message something humane that's it they lack humanity and if you can't be nice then just don't comment it's

not necessary so the fact that we need anonymity is quite sad in itself but yeah it's the vulnerability for me that means that anonymity factor is a thing that's needed which is very unfortunate given what we do. Very interesting. Yeah. So even if it sounds like an obvious question, it could be down to some other experience or something they've read because there's quite a few. So I guess even that because people see them and think this is ridiculous.

This forum's going crazy. What's the point of having people that won't even say their names, but there's a message behind it. There's a story behind it. I wanted to read out Michelle Sims, who I think could well be watching. She gave me some information, which was to do with anonymous posts. And I just want to read out her contribution. And if you are in here, Michelle, then you can add to it in the comments. So Michelle Sims said, I asked a question anonymously, so I didn't look stupid.

I asked about Indian head massage on a pregnant lady. I wasn't pregnancy trained then. I am now. And I got mixed answers. I'd been to my insurance who sent me to my training provider and the answer still wasn't clear. I went to the STA page where I got a mixed response. So I also posted on another popular site or group to try and gather as many different perspectives as possible.

It was there that one lady jumped on it straight away saying, this anonymous poster has already artists in another group and it's not listening to the responses given and she can't understand remember the exact wording but i think my intonation kind of described what was going on so i deleted the anonymous post now this is where michelle deleted the anonymous post because she was like okay i'll just delete it if you don't want me to kind of put these posts here

then i'll just delete it and that got i don't know whether she created the expression dirty deleting but that started a whole kind of snowball of problems now where it's like anonymous people actually deleting their posts because people have put answers and then if you delete the posts, all the answers disappear. And I kind of read that through, and it was quite interesting because some people did give quite constructive ideas and spend their time making a break in between 30.

Again, it all came from this person, Michelle, just being jumped on and kind of shamed, basically, in a lie, if anyone can see it, and just calling her out, saying, oh, she's been asked this question to everyone. She's just not listening. So again, I mean, I don't hand on heart believe that the person who did that was a bad person. But I think it's another example of where maybe they didn't think twice. They jumped in a little bit quickly, do you think?

And this was an admin, a moderator of a group. So is that a problem with you guys as well? Do you sometimes think the moderators could do more to control these groups yes I think I think it's actually quite difficult because the moderator it relies on the moderators being online as well at the same time as all of it going off and a lot of the time they they do genuinely have lives sometimes but.

But yeah sometimes it does get out of hand I think it is good when they do jump in like I said when when I called someone out for being a bit rude it was deleted pretty promptly I think I saw that post and I yeah and I don't know I can't remember it top of my head but yeah I don't I don't think it's a legit question I don't know why anyone would like go in in on it and there's plenty of things that I've seen that that have been questions that I don't necessarily

agree with it doesn't mean I need to necessarily comment or make a derogatory remark to someone especially on a public platform you know like it just it baffles me like what it is a cultural thing as well this is just like off for our groups it's all over I don't really understand why why people jump in on things that's one none of their business and secondly not helpful because you know there is a real person at the end of the day so yeah I don't really understand that at all.

Yeah I think I think that's sometimes what the issue is isn't it is that people don't put themselves in Aboriginal posters shoes they don't you know realize feel like so if your question bombarded with what can feel like quite hostile answers yeah i don't think it always comes naturally i mean i i'm i'm not blowing my own trumpet by saying this because it's plague and i can spend 20 minutes deleting and rewriting and deleting rewriting and then probably never even putting

it because i wasn't happy with it when all i needed to say was a little comment because i overanalyze it i'm reading and thinking oh no that could be taken the wrong way and it's bad it's not like it's just i worry too much about it sometimes i'm not pragmatic and don't ever ask me to get a serious job done because i just take ages thinking about the pros and cons but.

That pendulum's two-sided it's too far that way but then there is the other side i think where honestly it's not people just don't realize they just they haven't got the awareness that what they've written can be, misconstrued can be read differently and i'm hoping that when people do listen to this episode you know it'll make people stop and think because again i just want to reiterate i don't think they're bad people it's just they haven't got had that development

maybe when they were young maybe their education establishment maybe carers or parents or whatever it is they just don't naturally have that flexibility to look at their words and think hold on just delete that a little bit or maybe i should rephrase that and not put in bullshit or whatever it is so i'm hopefully we'll see fine what else do you want to bring to the table i want to i don't want to go rattling on anything you want to bring up the one thing

i'd say is i'd read something where somebody had put a post up about they'd had a client in i think they were a level three like me and the client was out of their sort of scope of practice so they'd said that they'd sent the client on to you know to to another professional but they were just asking if there was any courses available so they could be better informed and better signposts in the future if anybody else came through.

People totally ignored the fact that she had sent the client off for referral to someone else. And she just got bombarded with, you can't treat the client out of your scope, one after the other. And every so often she came in and said, actually, no, I've referred the client. I'm just asking for courses. And then sometimes you get these little debates going on further down the page. And then And the question is what the problem is about.

So I think I find that goes on a lot where the actual question originally disappears and then we get a whole debate of something else going on. And then the person gets no sort of advice in the end, apart from this debate going on about how much outer scope treating that like is happening. Yeah, that's interesting. And the original person who just went there, the sole practitioner with a little bit of help, has just gone, hey, guys, can anybody hear me?

And it's turned into some philosophical debate about what is evidence-based or evidence-practice? Should it be evidence-informed? It's just gone, what? Yeah, that can happen. People get obsessed with other sites. Maybe the whole structure of Facebook groups just needs changing. Maybe one of the problems here is, I mean, I thought last night, again, just reflecting too much about whether this might be a bad idea to get ready to shoot me down.

In some other forums, next to people's names, this wouldn't work with Facebook, but it's got kind of like level of experience. Yeah. You know, I mean, I'm thinking of like other forums, not social media ones, but whenever anyone posts, it's got level of experience, basically. So you straight away, you know now if you're talking to somebody who's got less experience or somebody who's got more experience or something.

I don't know whether that would help or not but at the moment no one's got a clue about anybody unless they bother clicking on their profile and learning a bit about them and it's often it's tricky to talk to people if you don't know anything about them isn't it yeah or maybe I'm just being too maybe it's up to the person to go how long have you been qualified that would help I'm just jumping in with that's rubbish it's not

evidence-informed this was another interesting question this evidence-based evidence-informed thing it's thrown around willywood nearly and it's used as like the answer to everything well that's not everything's based that's not everything's informed do you know what we're going to do another we're getting a whole episode about that because i think as we were talking before you read it a lot it's not something sadly that you're introduced to

when you maybe you finished your diploma or whatever course you did and yet it's thrown about the forms as some kind of like magic answer to everything but have you i mean you've mentioned a few times some of you but is it something which in time you've managed to learn about and now you You understand what they're talking about and you just wish at the time, you know, when you asked the question, they just kind of eased you more gently into it.

Is it a problem? Yeah, for me, I mean, coming out of my level three and level four in sports massage, I wouldn't, if somebody had said, what does evidence-based mean? I said, I don't know. Is it something to do with baking? It was only through my undergrad and now my master's that I really know what it is, what I have to do, where I have to go, how it should be done, and all those hoops you have to go through, which is great.

At level three and level four which are the people who ask these questions they still aren't clear and I know you get some people asking questions about courses some are fantastic some are a bit well gives you money let's tell you you're qualified in x y and z and I know is always jumping to somebody's rescue and say come and talk to me I'll give you kind of a no holds bad advice which is fabulous and at level three and level four you're pushed with this information and you

still don't have a clue because you don't know how to check the evidence base if you've been in your business for 10 15 20 years that's really great you're telling people check the evidence base that's usually the one comment and a couple of lines of check the evidence base okay if you're going to write that tell them where to go how do they do it at level three give a little bit more information instead of the sarcastic where's your evidence base like what happened

with me if it have made a private message and said look Emma do you know I'd have absolutely been you know up for talking making a conversation because then that becomes networking instead of this personal slating and then never to want wanting to ask anybody else in that group again. And I got thrown at me, what do you think Google's for? There's so much rubbish on Google. How are you supposed to go and Google something?

You know, it brings up all sorts. There needs to be some sort of clear and concise guidance. And then perhaps we wouldn't ask these so-called stupid questions. But they're not stupid to us. So some of the questions, like it's, I suppose, level dependent. But like I said, everybody's started some sort of a level where they've needed to ask a so-called stupid question.

It's just if you don't feel the need to or that you can give like good advice, then maybe just read and let somebody else that has got the patience to give the advice, give the advice and just read and don't post if you've got nothing, you know, nice to put in a nice way. Sometimes I think people have probably had a hard day at work. They're busy.

They have a quick look and they probably just throw comments out there, which I said before and it gets typed in a way that can get taken or misconstrued in the wrong way but and then when you read back the following morning which I think another member has said you read back some of their comments and thought oh actually that was a bit harsh perhaps I should have worded that a bit differently but I think we're all guilty of that sometimes.

Yeah that's cool that's a really nice thing to point out that we are all human and yeah sometimes the people who kind of jump on something and even say oh here we go again no more bullshit they might have had about 10 of the same conversations in the last two days or something and they're just kind of venting out in public and i've seen some people you know including people in the comment section, tonight who have kind of come back later and go i was wrong about that or something

and kind of go i was a bit too harsh with my comments or something so it does happen carol walton who also contributed to do.

Putting this together and may well be in the live lounge listening she mentioned um she had a situation where i get this she she had the retort the reply with oh you must forget about the brain and humans are very complex and that was almost the same as evidence informed because she she wrote here she says as a woman who's 62 years old oh this is where i got the expression from sorry for danielle it was carol who said i'm 62 years old and i've been around the block a few times.

And I think I know the understand the complexities of the brain so she found that very patronizing and again I don't think it's meant to be patronizing but it's the same as when we say to our patients oh it's because the pain is in your brain it's kind of a terrible thing which we realize now we should avoid quite a lot because it's just kind of well firstly it's inaccurate secondly it can make the patient or client believe that they're that you're saying

it's all made up but it's kind of the same thing we've got to be very careful in the comments when we start saying to less experienced therapists oh don't forget about the brains very complex human beings because it just comes across as patronizing and it's not going to make sense the other person is not going to go oh yeah i get it now oh thank you yeah no it's totally clear thanks very much totally get it now so yeah there is a bit of reflection

that's needed fiona what are you thinking i could see the cogs in your mind going around yeah so i'm dropping it out a bit of um with those sounds so I've been struggling a little bit but I think the important point to make is that for a lot of us we're by ourselves.

I don't have colleagues I can bounce ideas off or questions off so if we ask in a safe environment and get good ask replies we sometimes make a massive difference to how I, my business my clients and people, who do work by themselves and have a class where you can go to a school. Yeah, that's true as well. It's ironic, isn't it? As a sole practitioner, you go to Facebook groups for support and then you get jumped on and it's like, okay, that's out now. Where do I go?

Who am I supposed to talk to if I can't get something from Facebook? Again, that makes me think whether I'm thinking of other forms, but even in some forms, every time we post, you can have a little sound.

Again that might help avoid i'm just trying to think of solutions as a typical bloke just trying to think of solutions i shouldn't i should just be listening and empathizing but i think reflective practice which is also very important according to the evidence base that everybody likes to shout about maybe they could do some reflective practice and change how they communicate i am sorry to everybody here but i've heard a lot of excuses of they've had a bad day misconstrued just

it's us we're sensitive we are we are maybe it's our fault maybe it's a stupid question and i've just read a comment from nicky mansfield so you know sometimes it's the ego thing the bullies and she is absolutely right it's the same people saying the same things I mean it was a couple of years ago it happened to me with this man and I have never forgotten and if these people haven't changed at all their communication and skills are still as poor as originally they are

still saying the same thing why aren't they educating these new people change the way you communicate because you wouldn't send a message like that to a client because you'd be quickly out of business very very quickly and come with a bad reputation I apologize for. That everyone I just I wouldn't dream of messaging. Or sending up something like that into a public forum. And berating somebody who's only a level three or a level four yeah and I think face to face as well a lot of these people.

Wouldn't address people in the same way if they were in a course together and somebody at a different level they wouldn't speak to them that way because face to face you don't know what sort of response you're going to get but when you've got miles and miles and a computer to another computer they can pretty much get away with saying what they like and there's no real.

Comeuppance at the end of it they say what they've got to say and sometimes if they form a little group and you've got quite a few of them that agree and all jump on it sort of becomes a little bit of a habit to hop on and say these things on a regular basis and then nothing gets done about it so I think it's good that we like you've done this tonight because it it brings it to the forefront and it may make some people think twice before they

post something which is a bit abrupt or maybe not maybe they'll carry on I don't know it'll be good to watch in the future yeah Yeah. I do think to like slightly lighten it like uh superhero Gary G-Dog Benson yeah, like he often I don't know if anyone's else noticed but he often does come into these these discussions and he'd be like give me a shout give me a call let's have a discussion, and uh and I think I've answered a question before he's like Dan give me a call.

But yeah I think that maybe is something maybe we we should all like start thinking about as as so it's all it's all easy for us to say well this is awful but maybe what a solution is is maybe to say drop me a dm I might I might be able to help you let's have a conversation and then it becomes like a bit more personable rather than like the thing with these posts it's quite the equivalent of like you standing on speaker's corner and shouting out to the public your question

and of course everyone's like okay sure but sometimes actually what you need to do maybe I'm wrong but but maybe what we need to do is is say give me a shout I think I've done it somewhere before I was like I think I know how to help you and I just said I'll drop me a dm because I've done something similar before and then we had a little like two-way conversation it was much more in depth and stuff but it probably wouldn't be suitable for like the masses if that makes sense so maybe like be more

like gary like um hashtag be more gary but yeah maybe maybe like be a bit more support maybe we could like change this as well and and use this as a way of learning as well maybe we need to just offer out a hand if we think we can help that person that's nice and and i'm not sure we see that very often in groups do we where somebody just goes if you wanted to i I mean, whenever I see it, I always think. Oh, this person's sending a course or something or DM me.

But in actual fact, yeah, there should be more. Shouldn't they just DM me if you want to chat? Because yeah, just in private, that's the problem here, isn't it? It's hanging out, you're washing. Everyone's looking, everyone's judging. And a lot of these conversations probably should just be on a one-to-one kind of thing within a couple of minutes that they're opened up to the general public. Yeah, good. I like that. Be more like Gary. Hashtag be more like Gary.

Cool. That's true. Wonderful. Right. It's getting late is there anything i just want to hear anything else which you guys want to bring to it i mean like i say next week there's some lovely people jumping on who have got more experience i've already i'm sure they're going to have a lot to reflect on and look inside but anything else you'd like to send as a message to somebody who is watching this and maybe have kind of,

unknowingly kind of jumped on someone a bit too violently in a Facebook group.

I feel like I'm leaving a message for my children here, but the message is really simple. Just be bloody nice because it doesn't really hurt. That's it from me. What are you saying? You're sitting on the fence there, aren't you? Just say what you think. What do you mean by just being nice? Yeah, it's true. It's that simple, isn't it? Yeah, temper your reply. If you're having a crappy day, wait until you get home. If you're busy, wait until you're not so busy. If you're rushing,

wait until you're not. It really is that simple. If you're struggling to communicate, like we said earlier, with ADHD, etc., wait until you've had a little bit of downtime. I know my son has ASD, so I know exactly what it's like when your brain feels like it's on fire. Wait until you've had your downtime, then reply. Other than that, don't reply at all and let somebody with a little bit more patience and a little bit more willingness be able to say, Hi,

hashtag, be more like Gary. Do you want to give me a DM? And also if there's an anonymous option on a page it's a choice whether you use it or not and it yeah it shouldn't be you can't use the anonymous if you don't want us to use the anonymous then take it off but if it's there and i don't feel safe i will use it yeah it shouldn't come with any kind of comebacks using that at all yeah i think as well yeah so but it could be.

For the for the moderators or the i mean it's tricky to say people do this voluntarily but if i had a group and i was seeing someone who because okay this is an important point mic a little bit closer here if you're posting anonymously in a facebook group, the moderators and admin staff still see your name. You're not anonymous. I know that. And somebody had put that before that they posted something.

I think you popped it in the chat and they hadn't realized, but actually it clearly states that. And you guys are professional. So I would expect like you guys to, you know, not say horrible things and stuff and you can see it, but also police the situation and probably understand why somebody's posted that anonymously.

And I think maybe it's not so much a red flag, but it's definitely something to follow up, maybe contact that person, just say, hey, I noticed you've posted a few times anonymously. Should we have a little chat? Is there something which is stopping you? Have you had a bad experience? That would be nice, wouldn't it? If someone did have time and they were kind of fostering a group and looking after it, then anyone who basically is a yellow

flag, isn't it? Someone who has posted anonymously are doing it for a reason. So rather than just let them keep on doing it, there's a conversation there to be had, isn't there, I think.

Yeah cool okay well look great information people really really really thank you for sharing that information if people have been affected by tonight and they've liked what you've had to say then i'm going to read out where i think you guys can be contacted so emma b i notice instagram be strong underscore clinic is that a good place for people to follow you yeah so i'm gonna say don't put comments i'm okay i don't think anyone's gonna dare do that after tonight no no no no

no no they're not gonna yeah so uh well these will go the links but yeah for people who are listening instagram at b b e strong underscore clinic michelle you instagram as well happy underscore minds underscore massage underscore therapy that's the one that's me that's the one yeah so that's a nice place you can look out and maybe if you want to reach out to michelle hazel fiona right fit and well massage therapy on facebook

you've got an instagram account as well which has got some lovely photos can people reach out to you on instagram yeah yeah they absolutely can yes so that's at f i right w-r-i-g-h-t 78 so at fee right 78 danielle peters owner at body health gatwick best place for people to follow you or reach out for you, Danielle? Probably Instagram or Facebook, Body Health Gatwick. Body Health Gatwick Simples.

Wonderful. And then also just want to thank Carol Dalton and Michelle Sims for sharing as well their experiences, which I've mentioned a little bit tonight. So thank you for you two as well. And thank you for people in the live lounge. I haven't been able to follow and kind of share your comments, but you've had some interesting points in there, which people who are re-watching this on YouTube.

That's the point, actually, If you listen to the podcast and you want to see the comments, all you've got to do is go to YouTube and you'll see the little conversations which are going on. Sometimes there's some really interesting stuff being raised there and some advice as well. So do go and have a look at what's going on in there on YouTube if you want to.

Right then. That's it. So next week, eight o'clock, July the 8th in part two, we're going to be hearing from a panel of therapists, half of who I think are here tonight, who are going to be presenting. They're going to be reflecting what they've heard tonight and they're going to be presenting. There's always another side of the stories in there.

There is a side of the story where Facebook groups can be a real breeding ground for the perpetuation of myths and perpetuation of people acting outside of their scope. And the argument is that, yeah, this is why these people need help and support and educating gently. But I think one of the problems is, yeah, more experienced therapists go and check these out. It's the same stuff again and again and again. And people don't seem to be changing.

Our industry doesn't seem to be changing. And we're not being taken seriously by other healthcare professionals because of some of the stuff which we're still spreading, which we learned on the original course.

So that's not providing any excuses for being nasty or blunt and you still got to be nice but yeah they're going to be looking at it from that point of view so yeah it'll be really interesting if you have listed this podcast i'll put it out as soon as i can probably tomorrow come along and hear what the panel next week have to say and and come along and and comment and yeah be great right thanks again guys how do you feel now less nervous yeah they're looking

for there before it was a little bit up here but now we seem to be yeah actually just great i thought i told you i told you'd be fine once you got through now i really appreciate you guys stepping up and and just sharing it is inspiring for anybody else out there who wants to get on this reflection series and if there is an episode of the sports therapy association podcast which affected you and what you're doing clinic and you like it and you want to kind of give a

call out for the for the guest on there then email me matt at thesta.co.uk or find me at phillips or one chat live on social media and say oh i quite fancy that i like the idea of that and you can come on the show and have a chat about that episode again no right or wrong answers just about you reflecting because people are really inspired by you guys including you guys they'll hear you and they'll go wow i want to do that i can do that so thank you for giving up your time

and and the nerves hopefully it's not something you're going to carry around negatively. Yeah there's not going to be any yeah post-trauma at all anything like that i really appreciate it thank you and thank you everyone in the live land right hopefully we'll see some of you next week but until then as always i normally say take care of each other but i'm going to use emma b's quote here be nice. Music.