Ep.232 ‘Invictus Games: Resilience & Camaraderie’ with Sam May, Gemma Barnes, Carla Bickerstaffe, Jenny Lane

You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence back into soft tissue therapy. Music.

And we're live. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 232 of the Sports Therapy Association podcast. My name is Matt Phillips, creativerunchecklive.com And as always, this episode is being recorded live at 8pm on a Tuesday evening on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel and Facebook page. This episode is part two of this month's focus on working with athletes with disabilities, and it's entitled Invictus Games, Resilience and Cameraderie.

And very soon I shall be bringing up special guests Sam May and Gemma Barnes, both Team UK athletes recently returned from Invictus Games 2025. And with them will be sports therapist Carla Bickerstaff and massage therapist Jenny Lane, both of whom have experience of working with athletes with disabilities, with Jenny Lane recently returning from her position as soft tissue therapist for Team UK at this year's Invictus Games.

If you recognise those names and you listened to last week's episode, that's because everybody who is appearing in this series was with me last week and that episode is still available on YouTube and all popular podcast apps.

I was joined by, like I say, all the guests in this series and it's a superbly amazing honest and informative hour on some of the shared experiences as athletes with disabilities so if you haven't listened to that yet then make sure you do and if you'd like to join us for the recording of part three that's being recorded next wednesday not tuesday so make a little note in your diaries it's wednesday not tuesday march the 19th at eight o'clock i'm going to be joined in that episode

by dan wheels metcalf who despite being less paralysed from the waist down after a motorcycle accident in 2014, has since achieved three scuba diving world records, and is currently preparing for the next one. With Dan is going to be Snickler Hunt, specialist in neurological vestibular and respiratory physiotherapy and only in physio care rehab, and also Dr. Catherine Dawson, who's consultant clinical neuropsychologist and director of Sphere Rehab.

In part four being recorded Tuesday, back to Tuesday, March the 25th at eight o'clock, Carla and Jenny are going to return to accompany Rich Potter and Rich Davis. For those of you who aren't familiar with them, they're both armed forces veterans and single below-leg amputees who set world records at the end of last year on their limitless expedition conquering the Himalayas as the first ever amputees to achieve the half and full length of the snowman trek in Bhutan.

The toughest trek in the world, with 11 mountain passes at altitudes of over 5,500 metres.

So an absolutely fantastic, valuable month lined up, all with the goal of not only sharing information for therapists who are or want to work with athletes with disabilities, but also, as we've already heard, and I'm sure we're here tonight information that can play a hugely beneficial role in working with any athlete whatever their ability right then so just a welcome to people who have joined us live tonight tracy marsh is in the house this evening all if you listen to the podcast then

you do want to join us live then the advantage is obviously you can ask our guests questions directly and when you do i can bring your questions and comments up onto the screen for example cecily hislop is here and says all right then my lovers and that probably that's a pretty good accent precisely i just came out no one that came out so there's an advantage joining us live we love to see you can mix network with other soft tissue therapists so if you have got the time and

then yeah eight o'clock next wednesday normally tuesdays but next wednesday right then we're going to crack on this episode so if you joined live do feel free as always to ask questions as we start part two of this month's focus on working with athletes disabilities entitled invictus games resilience and camaraderie i shall now bring our guests up. Music. There you go. There's a voice there for you podcast listeners. Hi, Gemma. Hello. Good evening. And Carla. Hi. And Jenny. Hello.

Excellent. Thanks for joining us again. I can't believe it's only been a week. I know I've already said this and sound like a broken record, but I don't know, maybe we've all got such busy weeks. But it was a week ago since you all joined us with the other guests. So thank you for returning. That's very kind of you.

And yeah so this week is all about letting our listeners know about Invictus Games as well as all of your experiences as competitors and as therapists and showing some of that valuable information so I guess we should start really with with a little introduction for listeners who don't know what the Invictus Games is and maybe a little bit of a history on it so I don't know who the historian is here who'd like to introduce us to a little bit of where it all came for carly you know

when you put your finger over your mouth the teacher sees you do that at school they're going to ask you to answer the question i don't know a lot about it i do know i can tell you the first games were so the first games were 2014 in london and it was sort of i suppose a way of helping wounded sick and injured service personnel and veterans find a way back into sort of for want of a better word sort of their normal lives after being discharged from the service from the armed forces

and using it as a recovery tool and then it sort of had multiple iterations over the years different venues around the world different sports have. Been incorporated but I think the fundamental like core values have always been the same it's about a recovery journey for those personnel to help them either continue serving be it in a different capacity or sort of transition into civilian life really and what sport can do for them to help them with that if anybody would disagree you can do it.

Sam and Gemma is that a fair summary in your experience as competitors Yeah, I think that's a great summary. I think it was Prince Harry's baby, really, after he went and saw the Warrior Games in America and saw how positive it was for the veterans over there, and then wanted to bring it to a wider audience. And as Carla said, it's all about recovery for wounded, injured, sick veterans and current service people.

And Gemma anything you'd like to add to that yeah I think it's just important to point out that you don't have to have been an athlete prior to taking part in the Invitus Games I think a lot of people sometimes assume that you have to have been very high level sport before you come swimming in Invitus but that's not the case at all sport is used as a vehicle for recovery so you don't have to have tried any of these sports before you can try it first time here

and you know that's what they use to help you recover so it really is harnessing the power of sport and irrespective of your ability or your previous background or your previous exposure to this sport.

I'm interested in is it something which obviously everybody the situation and the experience for any person that gets disabled is going to be different but for somebody who's in the armed forces is it something which people are already aware of and think somewhere along the line that's something I'm going to turn to or does it often take a while before people in that situation even consider going to the Invictus Games?

I think it's probably changed recently because it used to be very much that the Invictus Games was for veterans and veterans of military service across all the different services but more recently it's being sponsored by the Royal British Legion and the MOG so there's an increased number of serving personnel who can also now take part so it was I can't remember the exact number Sam you'll have to remind me but I think it was 27 or 28.

27 personnel yeah out of the team of 60 so that was definitely the highest number of serving personnel you've ever had within the team so it's definitely opened up to more people and I think, previously it was more word of mouth whereas now I think there's more active participation from people who are still serving, I guess the word is going to get out a bit quicker within those realms, I think.

Yeah, I think for lots of us, we were signposted to it from the Baselbach Centre, which is like a recovery centre at the Royal British Legion run. But I think, as Gemma said, there's now currently lots more serving who've done it. So maybe the word will get out a little bit quicker. I sort of happened upon it by accident, but we'll see how it evolves, especially with it coming back to Birmingham next year. I think awareness will be higher than it has been.

Is that a definite now? Yeah, 2027 Birmingham Oh sweet, nice, okay that's good news Sam, can I just ask a quick question Sam and Gemma, do you know whether all of the serving personnel were being discharged, going through the medical discharge route or were some of them currently serving and continuing to serve? Yeah, it's different for lots of people. So some people are in the process. So like for me, I'm in the process and I don't know which way it's going to go.

Some people know they're on their way out and some people know they're staying in, but most of them with kind of medical limitations on how they can deploy. So it's the right mix of us. And when you look at that across the bigger spectrum you're looking at.

Veterans who were discharged 10-15 years ago you know fresh veterans in the last five years people come out during the process and like Sam said people who are about to come out and then who might be you're unknown and staying in so you've got such a vast spectrum of people you know a range of disabilities and functions and medical serving statuses so it's quite a lot to manage for the uh for the support stuff how much of a service does it provide in the rehabilitation of

people is it something that I presume not everybody can do is in the state of mind of even considering was it something that they're trying to encourage that most people consider as part of their recovery process at some point so from my experience I think it's not for everyone but there is a huge number of people who can benefit from it and it's as Gemma said rightly it's not just people who would previously identify themselves as athletes sport is

for everyone and it's very good at helping the people who are kind of in the right place to be helped by it but there are some people who it wouldn't be the right thing for them and there are lots of other recovery programs for them so you know through art or comedy or more traditional talking therapies there's lots of different avenues out there and it's not being pushed upon people as something you must try people are so they're

still serving and you're winded and you're sick for long enough you are encouraged to go to the battle back courses and i think that will probably highlight to you whether or not it would be something you would enjoy that's really a very interesting answer because i remember the riches.

Kind of saying that for them personally it's only saying for everybody it was it was not being able to serve their country anymore that was kind of very much their identity and the games gave them a chance to suddenly wear the flag again and restore an identity that they felt been taken away from them but i guess that's not going to you can't that's not paid the same brush on everybody but that does form quite an important part for some

people does it if you've been in the forces being able to wear that flag again is that kind of a common theme i think so yeah absolutely because i think when you when you take that decision to join the military it's a big decision whether you fully appreciate. But you an allegiance to the other thing. Is that just me losing sound a little bit? No, you're a robot.

Yeah, you know, monarchy and this and, sorry Gemma we're not hearing some of what you're saying I'm not sure whether it's at your end or not I might ask you I might kick you out basically in short words and then have you joined again I couldn't think of a nice way of putting it no I just no I didn't want to miss anything you were saying now you've gone now you've stopped talking it's all beautiful again but it was going with it.

For people you said the last 20 seconds it's about it was about yeah yeah sorry, yeah I was just saying it's a lot of people it's really important when we join up because we swear to the queen as was or the king and I think no matter what arm you're in there's a real strong degree of and service to country and service to self so I think that that degree of service it never quite leaves you and service to country pride in your country pride in wanting to defend

and represent your country I don't think that ever leaves you so when you leave the military that part of you doesn't die it just sits there waiting to be used again and I think Invictus for me particularly it really opened up that opportunity for me to be part of Teen UK represent the UK you know that sense of pride and that sense of national pride as well which I think is always really strong in the military so yeah for me it really opened

up the opportunity to represent the country again and I really felt that deeply for me that was a really that was a really important thing to do.

Similar for you Sam or? Yeah I mean so I'm still serving so I've not kind of been out of it in the same way that Gemma's been but definitely yeah it's good to feel like you're achieving something again you're contributing you're representing and lots of it as well as kind of networking's maybe the wrong word but it's kind of like political relations you're going and meeting other allies who you're going to fight alongside and so actually just being

back in that environment again was pretty special very interesting thank you carla and jenny last week you had not a lot to say which i know both of you is is not because of you it's because of me it was me not you because you've got loads to say but maybe now's a great time to to ask or Although, no, it's not a great question for you because you talked about this off air. But how did you guys get to work for the Enuxer's Games?

How did that all come about? Because maybe there's people listening who are thinking, this sounds amazing. I'm hoping there are people thinking, I want to get involved in this. It sounds like it could be really interesting and make good use of my skills.

But it's not that easy, is it? Not really, if I'm being honest. That's fine. So we... Well, I was invited to apply to be part of the team. And when I did my first cycle for Dusseldorf, which was for the games that were in 2023. So the application process for that actually started in 2022. So how were you invited then? Who invited you? So, well, I'm getting to that point. I got an invite from... Patience, sit in your hands. I was invited by Swim England to apply for a swimming coach's role.

And then when I had the application form to put the application in because I am a qualified coach as well I went no I don't want to do that I want to do medical and I switched my application.

Into the medical side so I did swindle it a little bit but I had been I had been invited to apply in the first sense and then I had to go through a selection process the same as the competitors did so I had to go to the selection camps and I was kind of observed there were competitors from previous games that were kind of sent as almost plants to come and see me to then feed back on how I treated them and how I interacted with them and things like that um and then I had sort of

was given feedback on that and then was selected for the team off the back of that and then for Canada it was the same sort of we I was invited to apply this time purely as medical based off of the reputation I built on the first cycle and we still had to go through an application process we had to apply we had to be interviewed for the role because there was only a set number of places so we had our interviews and then what offered positions off the back of that.

So it was, yeah, it wasn't an easy, it's something that I've wanted to do for years. And every time I tried to get in from its inception, so like from sort of 2014 onwards, I was always kind of. You could never sort of find the right door to knock on, if that makes sense. And it was always like you need to go and build your reputation. You need to go and do things out there.

You need to go and sort of work on building your profile as a person and as a therapist because you are an unknown entity and you're going into work with quite a vulnerable group of people who are going to put a lot of trust into you and you need some credibility with that I think for you to be able to go in and then come to you because you you don't know anybody you're all thrown into this situation together and the competitors can either choose to engage with you or not and if you've not got

that sort of reputation or that demeanor I think it puts people off and some some competitors still aren't fully ready to work with you I think if they don't quite understand your role or things like that and it's it's I think for me sort of I'm not naive in that I don't know the different branches of the military or things like that but I don't know particularly the hierarchy so I'm very much out of it and if somebody says to me oh I

drove tanks for a living I'm like that's brilliant that's great I love it like I'm not I'm not necessarily going to ask and pry into what it is that they do if they.

Want to disclose that to me then great we'll have that conversation but I want them to feel safe when they come for a treatment with me that I'm not going to ask triggering questions or things like that so it's kind of it's a very sort of unique situation to be in and it's a very privileged one I think for us as therapists to be able to work in that environment and with that group of people, because it takes a lot for everybody to be in that situation and sort of work together effectively.

Jenny, I'm going to ask you for this, basically whether you lied yourself in as well, but before we do that, I mean, Sam and Gemma, is that interesting to hear what the selection process was like? And for Carla, does that resonate, the things which they were looking out for and trying to make sure they find the best therapist possible? Yeah, it's really interesting because actually, obviously, as competitors, we don't really know what the process is.

These wonderful people turn up at camps and some of them keep coming to camps and some of them don't keep coming to camps. Yeah, OK. It's sort of like bimbling through because everyone's so focused on themselves, really. So it's really interesting to hear how they got to where they are. And as Richard said in the comments, they're both absolute assets to the Invictus programme. So we're lucky to have them both. They're both fabulous.

Very nice to hear. Yes. Thanks, Rich, for joining us. which says Carl and Jenny are both major assets to the Invictus community exclamation mark very nice for you Rich Potter and Gemma you were nodding away I mean obviously for you Gemma you're, physiotherapist so a lot of the things you're hearing is you're thinking yes so it should be that sort of stuff so obviously it resonates with you a lot as well yeah absolutely I mean

it's great to hear that they go through this process more than anything I think it's personality driven a lot of the time it's a difficult environment that you're coming into as a medical professional of and I see that because I was there as a competitor but you never quite take off your medical hat really do you and there were ties when I'd hear people you know talking about their injuries or talk about their you know disabilities and they got into a really negative spiral and I would

try and help them as much as I could but when you know they're going to see really good clinicians you feel really comfortable saying go and speak to the soft tissue guys or go and speak to the medical team because they're such great people but they were so approachable and like Carla says, she knows the basic layer of the military, but it's good that you don't know all the intricacies and all the rank structures and that, because we want to be there being treated as.

You know to people people doing what we can doing sport you know giving it a go good days bad days and everything in between you don't necessarily want to be there as an ex-officer or as an ex-courts or as a current you know colonel or a current this you just want to be seen as a person and sometimes the the military you know sees you with a number or a rank or a trade and the joy of the medical team here was that everyone was just treated and seen as a person and a human being

and I think you know you brought up really good rapport and relationships with them as a result because you could talk about anything and there was no judgment and I think whoever decided to bring all of you in as a medical team was genius because you all worked really well together you had a really lovely balance male and female you know there was always somebody you could go to if you were happy or sad or feeling one way or feeling another and I think to get that from the medical team is

incredible you know you're really confident you're really good at your job but you're also really loving people who could who could relate to the whole spectrum of people so you know thank you from all the team because I think we all really felt that and we all possibly didn't mention it as much as we should have done because we were normally crying or in pain and or.

Yeah but actually I think the medical team was such a great success because you taught people things and you taught people things they didn't even know you could do and I think yeah we were really lucky to have you guys.

It's so interesting I mean we'll touch later on on all the qualities you're talking about they have are qualities that anybody in healthcare is supposed to have whether you're a GP or anybody having that empathy that time to listen the body language that you know the teaching people to individuals it's all supposed to be what healthcare is but but first Jenny, yeah. So Jenny, for you, selection process similar? Yeah. So Carla very kindly introduced me into the selection process.

It was interesting the way that they were going to go about it. Obviously, the military have physios that they use every day through their basic training all the way through right up to the time that they finish. And they didn't always come to us having had a great experience. Now, whether that was not from the treatment point of view, but it could have been that they didn't really want to be discharged. They didn't really want to leave the military.

And that process sometimes can be a bit bumpy. It's just the natural way of it, I think. And so on occasion, I think that. Some of the competitors found it difficult to relate to some of the military physios who were there for lots of different reasons. And so actually having Carla and I there who weren't military at all, I think was a really nice balance because they knew that we had no preconceived ideas of who they were, what they'd done or what was going on with them really.

So I think, I think that balance was really nice. I think it was really important to have that balance with us alongside it as well and I think quite rightly as Gemma and Carla and Sam have said that the way that they put together the team was quite interesting and that they really pulled on skills that each of us had some very specific skill sets that we brought into the team as a whole so if somebody came up to either Carla or I and really the person they needed to see was another one

of the physios who was particularly good with spinal manipulations or there was somebody else who was particularly good with the categorization so it might have been that that they needed to be recategorized or or you know just talk to somebody about their categorization we all had our place with within the team itself so I think that's why it bonded quite so well I think and worked worked well.

Very interesting so what was so yeah multi-disciplinary carriers what was your experience before you started then how much did you know going in? About about Invictus or? About generally working with this population, about working on the spot, having to make decisions. I mean, we're talking a little bit about how much time you did have and whether it was kind of more pitch side rather than clinic and appointments, but what was your experience going in and how much did that serve you?

Sorry, sorry, Matt. Going into the- Invictus Games, yeah. About the competitors that we were seeing? Yeah, about the work you're going to have to be doing. I had a little bit of an insight into working with military personnel because my husband's in military. So I had set up a clinic on the married path, which means that I was seeing a lot of military personnel already. So quite often they're sportsmen, a lot of them are.

So they came to me with running injuries or things that they didn't necessarily want the military to know about. So I kind of had a little bit of an idea of the type of things that I was going to be dealing with and the complexities in some cases. But if I'm totally honest, certainly this time round, I think that I worked with a lot more complexity than I'd ever thought that I would work with. And that was really hard. I'm not going to lie.

That was it was really hard because you really had to to think long and hard about how you were going to approach particular clients and clients competitors and how you you would deal with it and quite often we worked as a disciplinary team so we'd all we'd all come together as a multidisciplinary team and kind of say how can we help this person who's who's best suited and sometimes. It was more hands-off work that was needed with them.

And particularly because a lot of them needed help behind the scenes and not just at the particular time that we're looking at. So some of the guys with severe scarring really needed to be doing some of their own scar work treatment because they would only see us once a month. So there's lots of things that we kind of really needed to... And I think we could still do better. I think we could still work on that process on the back of this Games. But yeah, so it was...

It wasn't straightforward. It wasn't straightforward. And I think there were times when you talk to the competitors and they told you the injuries that they had. And it was overwhelming from an emotional point of view, because you're looking at a body that has been, some of the injuries are really quite traumatic. And so, and you have empathy for that. It's, you know, we're in a job, we're empathetic beings and it's, it's difficult.

I mean obviously you're a professional and you don't show it at the time but, equally you come away sometimes and feel really sad that anybody has to go through those injuries I think is probably the the right phrase. I mean that was wonderful yeah such an insight any reflections on what Jenny's just said because there's so much there to unpack. Gemma you were nodding away at some point where she mentioned the hands-off work.

Yeah absolutely I mean we alluded to it before the the team was so diverse in terms of a mix of mental health injuries physical injuries mixture of complex mental health and physical chronic injuries more acute injuries I mean you literally had everything from you know 25 year old injuries right through to fresh injuries affectations everything so I think I can definitely appreciate that it was complex to treat a lot of that and I think there was an awful lot of.

Not necessarily flags, but there were definitely some pointers for some people where they needed signposting to mental health issues or programmes that they could get themselves into, because this might have been the first time that they'd ever put their toe in that water and asked for help in any way.

And I think it's testament to how well you guys coped with it.

That if somebody who has been hiding and has been pretending to be fine, and then during this process has felt safe enough to talk to you about it it's you feel almost lucky as a practitioner that they opened up to you but then almost really you feel the weight of that and you want to signpost correctly to the right place but then you know where do they live they could be anywhere in the country they could be still serving they could be out they could be there's so

many different charities so I think trying to navigate that as a therapist sometimes you end up being a hands-on therapist and a hands-off therapist and I think that's just as important sometimes because somebody's head isn't in the right place their body's not going to be in the right place and you can treat you know a certain muscle you can strengthen it or you can you know do as much soft tissue release as you want but if you're not dealing with that mental

resilience and that mental strength at the same time and I think as a practitioner people do talk to you because you've got your hands on them so teeth they they tell you more and I think it's a double-edged sword sometimes it's great that people feel comfortable to tell you that but then you have a responsibility you know what do you do with that information how do you best help them and sign face them and I think given the diversity of

the team you know all credit but it just reminds us that it's never just one or the other it's never just physical or emotional or mental health we're such complex beings so yeah I think it's um I think you guys did absolutely brilliantly because there was a difficult it wasn't a difficult team but there was a lot of issues expecting the team. Amazing. Sam, as an RAF doctor, Sam, how much of this already made sense to you and you were aware of and you kind of weren't surprised at?

Or when you saw the team working there during the games, were you kind of surprised what the services offered or what was needed? Yeah. No, but I think so. No, I wasn't surprised, but I think that comes more from having been an athlete previously and been lucky enough to work with soft tissue people and sports therapists and physiotherapists and sports psychologists. And I was very lucky in my previous kind of athlete life. People often assume that as doctors, we know all about injuries.

And actually, you know, I can do broken bones and dislocated ankles, but muscle sprains and things are not my bag.

Like if it's not going to kill you in any often you know it's not our priority so people assume that doctors know lots of this stuff and we really don't so having the multidisciplinary team where people are genuinely experts in that bit of the body and rehab is excellent and you know we had a nurse as well on the team on the medical team to look out for kind of the more medical issues so I think they did a really good job providing that

MDT and you know you've got the physios you can do diagnosing supporting it by the soft tissue therapists and masseuses supported by the nurse so I thought they did a really great job and it was good to see that they had thought of it and covered that because sometimes if you just I love doctors they're great but we have our limitations. And you need people who are actually experts in kind of the hands-on stuff.

But that makes perfect sense you can't be that's why multi-participating care is so important a patient center focus because you wouldn't i don't think you could be an amazing doctor if you also had all of the stuff that's going on with amazing hands-on practitioner you just wouldn't be able to make those decisions would you it's just too much for anyone you shouldn't be expected to you know and do but i'm interested with expertise because carla and jenny here's a question for you

he said rubbing his knees thinking he's gonna give him a question that's too tricky but what are your expertise we often talk about hands-on therapists yeah what would you say your expert it's difficult you have to blow your own trumpet but what what do you think your expertise are if you had to write them on a cv because you're not going to say oh i do a great pnf i do a great massage i'm i can back massage absolutely amazing what do you think your skills or

things maybe attributes which maybe you took for granted but you realize you have actually got are that make you so effective as part of the team 50 questions hiding in the background not wanting to be a hero not wanting to be a surgeon gloves mask i hate questions like this and people ask them you ask them all the time. I can list your qualities if you want. That makes me feel more comfortable. I'm quite happy. Someone else can do it for me. Like, I hate stuff like that.

Whenever anybody says to me, you know, when they go, oh, use three words to describe yourself. I'm like. Oh, tell you what. Okay. Here, I'll make it easier. Jenny, what's amazing about Karla? Say her skills though. And then get ready, Karla, because you're going to have the same question. Don't ask me. I don't know. Where do you think she excels as a, as a somebody who's going to strive?

And I mean, you've been commended so much by everybody. what do you think the skills are of Carla as opposed to a physio or the surgeon or the doctor or somebody? I mean, Carla's a great listener. She's also got a real good understanding mental health side of things. And she is a really good professional. I know that sounds ridiculous, but she's super on all of her CPD.

And she's really aware of how to combine all of her treatments to make it really effective you know and I think I think that's probably Carla's really best trait is that her treatments are just super effective super effective which is a bit of a cop-out isn't it but but I think you think because of the listening as the listening come first and that fuels the treatment yeah absolutely absolutely and it's

just an understanding of all of it I I think it's an understanding of how to speak to somebody, how to not assume anything, how to empathise with them in a correct, appropriate kind of manner. And she's not, she doesn't flap on the outside. It's important, very important. A beautiful swan on your webcam with legs underneath going crazy. Yep.

That's so interesting because they're all skills you've listened, like listening not assuming not judging the person treating these aren't skills really that still sadly i don't know about on physiotherapy courses but having spoken to people who teach in universities i don't think they're still very advanced in teaching these skills it's more still you're the fixer you can do this you can do this this is a knee this is a shoulder so,

it's not surprising that therapists out there won't have these because they haven't been nurtured in their courses i sorry to jump in that i don't i i have this you know who you had the the the i word that you don't like last week i don't like this when people come to me and be like i need to be fixed like you're not broken like we might need to change something we might need to adapt something but you are genuinely not broken it's just a different version of, what you were before and i think

if i take anything back to my clinical practice from working with these guys it's how to understand that much better and obviously before Invictus like I'd done work in para swimming and and quite a lot of my background is in that and I think.

I now have a better outcome with my clinical patients because of the fact that I've had the chance to work with these guys and like learn how to listen better and ask the right questions but also not to tell people no you can't do that unless it's obviously unsafe then I'm going to be like no we can't do that but just how to modify things so that they can still do the sports that they want to do because at the end of the day that's

the one thing that might be getting them out of bed every day and to take that away from somebody unnecessarily for me I'm like I can't do that I can't have that like responsibility like somebody else can do that but it's not gonna be me like I'm not gonna pull the like the rug out from underneath somebody I want I want I want to champion them into doing something that they love doing and find a way to help them do that, whilst sitting in the background going, yeah, you did it.

That kind of thing. That's what we're there for at the end of the day. It's never about us. It's about getting the outcome for the competitor or for the athlete. That's why we're there. That's why we do our job that we do at any event. We literally, like I say, we just hide in the background. We are there just to keep everybody else going and keep everybody else doing what they love doing.

In the military we've got a phrase that med is an enabler and i think that is, because she's in the background and i suppose to some extent you guys are in the background but without you guys we wouldn't have got to we wouldn't be on the stage or doing on the floor or doing whatever we were doing so you know you guys were a huge enabler for all of us. Absolutely. And I think you guys really helped us realise that we have different bodies now.

We don't have a broken body that doesn't work anymore. We just have a different body to the one that perhaps we joined the military with. And I think there were several times when you guys, particularly Jenny, when we were working together, where I would say, oh, this isn't working very well. I don't know why. And you say, oh, it's not actually your leg. We need to follow that fascial strain and then go up and then, oh, look, you can't move your head to the right.

It's probably that you know when you just think my god the way that you looked at everything so holistically and just as a whole person I found really brilliant and you just sort of showed us that actually you know your body's just worked differently now you just need to be a bit more aware of x y and z or just pay attention to this muscle you know you just you highlighted things that we might not have considered because we were focused in on our injury or

injuries or those areas in particular which you know I'm a therapist actually better but when it's yourself oh it all goes out the window you just forget everything is important when it comes to yourself I find so for you to say oh yeah yes it's your leg that's the problem but actually if you think about facial trains and things like that you need to be looking up here and that's where this is and that's like and you just showed me that it's just a different body and you need to treat it

a bit differently and you need to manage it a bit differently but we can still get it to work I I mean, look what everybody achieved. Look what the whole team achieved. You know, we did incredible things. I mean, everybody on a victim does incredible things with the body that they've got. But we were just so lucky to have you guys showing us what our different bodies could do. And I think that's what's really empowering for me.

And as a therapist as well, I think that's what I want to take back out is that you can do things in that body. You just need to look at it as the body that it is, not the body that it was or the body that you want it to be.

You know you can aspire to that but you might not always like be there or get there and sometimes you need a healthy dose of realism and you know you guys could do that as well in a very gentle way but yeah I think really that's that's now I reflect on it that's a really big thing I think is work with the body that you've got not the body that you used to have.

That's a really hard thing to do sometimes for some people though I think that's and absolutely it totally agree it's the body that you, it's your new body, the new you, the new you. And that might still have some overlaps, the old you, but there might be things that you need to, I think everybody hates on their injury. They hate that injury. It's a case of trying to find a way to get them to be gentle with that thought and not be aggressive with it, not fight that injury so much.

It's just being, And that again is sometimes a really difficult thing to try to even untangle and pick in your brain sometimes too.

Amazing especially as you say as you as the therapist are hearing these things getting to stress yourself thinking how the hell am i supposed to do anything about this this must be so horrible and you have to stay like carla says like the swan and being able to be the swan that helps the person in front of you kind of calm down as well ultimately rather than saying oh my god they're panicking as well you know so yeah so many traits there and again i hate to sound like a broken record

but so many traits that should be carrying across and being done with any athlete who's who's injured who can't do what they want to do or even somebody who's getting older and still thinking they're going to do what they were doing when they were 20 you know or or various different stages in their lives so it's such common themes sometimes it's just the competitors highlight all of that and intensify that in you you have it draws out more from you so I think

it just it hones the skills more because it's a bit more highlighted I think because of the nature of the injuries.

I think this conversation helps us understand something that we picked up on last week, where knowing that all of this is going on behind the scenes, this rollercoaster of emotions and help and the highs and the lows. That like you commented last week, it's not just about the medal. It's about all of that journey, like Rich said, and having to stop and remember this journey and not just doing it because you want to be on the podium or something. So it's really interesting to hear it.

With regards to that, I think we had a question in, actually. It was sent in by a colleague of yours, wasn't it, Sam? James Hollis. And James Hollis, for people who aren't aware, competed in the 2012 London Paralympics and 2022 Birmingham Commonwealth Games. And also, as well as being a British Paralympic swimmer, he's also Invictus swim coach. Is that correct? Yes, he's the assistant swim coach for the Invictus team. Fantastic. Okay. And he was gracious enough to give a couple of questions.

I'm not sure we were trying to work out whether he was setting you up or not. They were great questions, obviously. And the one maybe that I'll direct you to, it kind of fits in now, was about, yeah, if you had to say, well, direct it to the athletes, first of all. I'm feeling bad about calling it athletes now. What should I call it? Even the word competitor kind of winds me up a little bit because the idea is it's not all about competing, is it?

I don't know what word to use, which I feel happy about myself, but you're using competitor. So maybe I'll just use competitor. Is that the best word? You're all competitors? That's what the whole process refers to us as. Fine, you're competitors. So yeah, what was the single most impactful moment of the Victor Games 2025? You've had a little bit of time. Yeah, I've had a little bit of time.

I think so. For me, this is actually kind of a surprise and it was not what I thought it would be going into it. And Gemma will probably be surprised as well. I think for me, it was doing the skeleton. Yeah, I know. If you're listening to the podcast. Which is true. You're not telling the video. Yeah, so I went into the, going into those games. It was winter games. I've previously been offered the opportunity to do skeleton. And I was like, absolutely not. These people are mad.

Why would I want to slide face first down an ice chute on a tea tray? Like, no.

And then we got offered to do it. And I was like, maybe. I ended up somehow being the reserve for skeleton and kind of was like oh you know I won't end up doing it I got told the night before that I was doing it the next afternoon and I just the next day was busy and I didn't really have time to panic and our coach was so lovely and was just like just do the next step just do the next step just do the next step and I somehow found myself, doing it and rocking it and

well you're not dying not dying I was absolutely terrified of it and I think I don't know if anyone's been skydiving it's probably a more common experience than doing skeleton that feeling when you're sitting in a plane you're about to jump out the plane that's how it felt at the top I was like is this really am I gonna regret this and I didn't tell my mom I was doing it until after I'd done it because I was like it's just I can't handle.

So I think for me actually the biggest thing was being like no I can control my emotions and I can do those really scary things and things that do risk injury but hold it together and do it, which is odd because going into it skeleton wasn't even one of my sports I haven't trained for it I sort of rocked up and did it so it's weird that that is kind of one of my biggest moments from the games I think it was Who does the other coaches?

That's a great answer. Yeah, it's a symbol for so much. And Gemma, you seem very surprised at that. I am surprised at that, yeah, because I was well up for doing Skeleton. I couldn't wait. It was one of the things I was most excited about. And Sam was my real sort of, yeah, that's lovely, but have you thought about X, Y, and Z? And when you actually sit and think about it, it's an incredibly dangerous thing to do. And, you know, we've had a bit of a laugh and a joke about it.

But actually, I think it was the best thing for Sam that it was very last minute that she had a really busy day. She didn't have time to think about it because, you know, like all good people, we think about things and then we tend to think a bit more and a bit more.

And before you know it, you've overthought it. talk yourself out of doing something so actually I think sometimes when you just have that opportunity to do something you just do it sometimes there's some of the best moments and you know there's great photos and video evidence of Sam absolutely doing brilliantly so yeah I really heard that I think Skeleton was brilliant and such a good experience and yeah definitely one that you could I went into it

quite as doctors we see quite a biased view of life and I'd worked in rehab at Stamford Hall which is like the military rehab centre and I'd seen some pretty awful injuries from ice sports and I was like why would anyone do this but now I see, now I see why doing it that was my thought with skiing again, biased view of it I heard skiing and I immediately was like yep, literally ACL, MCL knee injury, no good comes from it so yeah.

Interesting games for all of us so Birmingham then, we're going to be looking out for Samantha May in a new sport, are we?

Well, I don't think there's a skeleton in Birmingham, so I think we're leaving from that front. No, this is true. Not particularly, not in Birmingham, no. Well, then who knows with the weather at the moment. Gemma, what for you? What was the most impactful moment of the Ewykter Games 2025? For me, it was, I trained alongside the Team UK wheelchair curling team and there was only four people that were selected for it, but we have a squad of eight who train together regularly.

I didn't make the main team, but I stayed on the squad. And then as a result, I was entered into the Unconquered. So it's the Unconquered Failing Teams, which is there were two of us. And we basically got put together in a team with people from other nations. And we formed two teams of four people each from all different nations that were competing. And then we just went out on the ice as a team and competed against the countries who had entered the team.

Which was amazing and my team one our estonian didn't turn up so we were down to three not four and then we had a frenchman he didn't speak a word of english so we had to use google translate while we were on the ice and a lithuanian guy who was really enthusiastic but had never played never curled before in his in his life so there were three of us and it was a really interesting team and i thought oh my gosh this is going to be horrendous we're going to be going to

be a laughing stock and there was part of me that just thought oh i don't want to i don't want to go out onto the ice you know this is gonna be so embarrassing and my coach came along elspeth she's so amazing she came bounding over and said this is so exciting what a great opportunity you know you can just between you go out there just have fun and she absolutely reframed the way i thought about it because i immediately thought oh my gosh we're going to be a laughing stock you know

we're not going to be able to do anything where people are going to laugh at it it's going to be embarrassing it's going to be awful and she just absolutely flipped it upside down and said what an amazing opportunity there's zero pressure on you you can go and have fun you can just do the sport you enjoy So, yes, you'll have to use Google Translate, but, you know, curling's fun. Just have fun with it. Just go out and enjoy.

I thought, you know what? Yeah, let's do that. Let's just go out and have fun. And, you know, we had the most fun. We really, really did. We won two out of our three games, and we actually lost to Korea, who won the gold medal overall. So I have no qualms about losing to Korea.

And, you know what? We had so much fun. It was the purest version of the sport I'd ever played because, you know, there was a lot of hand signals there was a lot of google translate there was a lot of sort of pointing and nodding and smiling and so much laughing so much laughter on that ice and when we won two games the feeling honestly i felt like we've won a gold medal especially our second match against colombia what was our third and final match against colombia they were

really good and we were trying to play tactically and you know we we were just giving it our everything and it was so pure and we won and honestly people thought that we'd won the gold medal for the whole thing and we hadn't at all I think we came I think came eighth overall but that was out of 20 so actually we really held our own but the feeling of coming off that ice with two other people that I'd only met a few hours earlier of feeling that sense of such close teamwork of working

together of overcoming all those silly barriers around language and things like that just for the sake of pure sport and pure fun we had so much fun with it and I think that was my we call it a gold medal moment and some people like that some people don't like don't like that so much but for me that.

Absolutely epitomizes it it sums it up it was a gold medal moment I was buzzing I felt like I've won because we just had so much fun and we yes we won our match we made friends with each other we had a laugh and in that moment you know when you think quite often that you know I could be really quite shy and I tend to sort of hide away a little bit and I'm like oh no I don't want to do that I just thought I need to do that more I need to

put myself out there more and do more things like that because the fun that can result from it is way better than the fear of the bad things that might happen so yeah it was uh for me that was my absolute best moment that's great sounds sounds amazing yeah fantastic carl and jenny is it must be interesting hearing what sam and jen were giving as their best moments and that probably probably doesn't surprise you to other people listening I think

it's a wonderful insight into what Invictus Games is all about and, you know, what is to be taken away from it. But for you and for Carl and Jenny, I guess it's lovely to hear that. And it makes perfect sense, isn't it? The camaraderie and the fun and the smiles and the overcoming the fears and having to just put faith in yourself again. Can't just nod at me. That would be terrible.

I mean, obviously this year I worked with the team right up until they went out to Canada and unfortunately Derek didn't go with them. But if I think back to Dusseldorf, you have a very similar sort of thing. I remember the very first day was we had athletics going on and we had powerlifting going on at the same time. And the competitions were happening, but they were also streaming them on the tellies.

So there were, we had athletes in the powerlifting that were cheering on the athletics athletes at the same.

They can't hear them. they're outside just watching it on the telly but it was so lovely to see those relationships that people had built and the support that they had for each other and yes they were there to sort of compete for themselves but actually it was more important that they were there for each other and that really comes across and that's really I think what makes this sort of games totally unique and it's so there's nothing else like it like really anywhere other than

things like warrior games in the states which i don't really know that much about so i couldn't really comment to be fair but when you look at it comparatively to everything else that we have.

It's it's the only thing like it there's not there's nothing else like this out there, it's very special great and jenny for you what you were actually there this year so So for you, is there a particular moment that you're going to remember, the most impactful moment for you, Victor Gaines 2025? The most impactful moment for me, like Carla said, it wasn't really about me.

I think the thing that I took away from each and every person was their special moment and having the honour of sharing it with them, really, and seeing their progress and seeing how, you know, at the very beginning when you see them coming in and doing all the training, you kind of think, wow, this is going to have to go somewhere at the end of the, it's a bit like starting, you know, you're running training for a marathon. You never believe that you're going to get to that end, that end line.

And I guess it's seeing them develop and move through. So I know that's a bit of a cop-out, but like Carla says, it's not about us. It's much more about seeing the joy on people's faces and seeing it work and seeing it being such an amazing, as Carla said, amazing and unique experience. Well answered. Yeah, I'm not surprised. Brilliant. Well, look, somehow it's 8.59. We had, I mean, we should really have respect for the other question.

We should get the other question in here, which is, and it's quite a nice way to end actually, which again was a question shared with Sam. It was regarding what's it like from James? What was it like the transition? We touched on last week how tricky it is and obviously the natural down there is of coming away from this in the atmosphere and especially after such amazing memories.

But with regards to treatment and soft tissue therapy, James came in and asked, how did you find the transition back into the real world where you no longer had therapists at your disposal? So basically going from everything to being far more limited has that affected you sam and gemma yeah i've been in a very lucky position that so one of the physios from the team ben treaders is still a military physio and he's my physio as a still serving person so.

I've had great continuity and i've seen him a couple of times since the games and actually it's been a really good opportunity to talk with someone who was there and saw it and has seen how it's gone and you know rehab is a long slow grind sometimes and you can't rehab the entire time so the games was a lovely break from some of that rehab and now it's kind of a little bit back to reality and back to doing the you know he's

a great physio he tries to make the exercises fun but there's only so much fun that you can make some rehab exercises and so we're kind of back to that grind but it's for me it's great having someone who understands what's happened and understands where my goals are at but yeah I don't have them on my beck and call you know I can't just you know of an evening be like oh Jenny can you just have a little look this you know thing so but they've done

all the hard work in the education on how we can manage ourselves and they've all been great throughout the process of being like okay well we've identified this and you know you need to look after this yourself by doing x y and z and so now it's kind of keeping that sort of motivation or discipline to do those things fantastic for you jimma yeah i think I really felt actually because I had my rowing on the Sunday so we had I had two rowing competitions then it

was the medal ceremony and then the evening sort of event and then straight onto the plane the next day so.

I the next day when I was sat on that plane my goodness I could feel every single second of my rowing and I really felt you know that is exactly the time when I could have done with going to soft tissue you're like can you just swap my SIJ back out please because it's done that weird thing again and yet every part of me was was in agony after the rowing so i think feedback for the organizers next year don't put the rowing on the very last day before we get a 10-hour flight

home i think the beauty blew a rehearsing as a result of that but like sam said the hard work could have been done by them in that we had gone through different sessions i know how i can manage that by myself you know we'd spoken about recommendations of other therapists who live near me so that you can you know get into a regular practice because i think all the way through it was reiterated to us you know you are very lucky to have this here and you will not have this going forward afterwards

so let's get some exercises up and running let's give you some recommendations for people you know that are in your local area that that understand and can help you going forward so, Whilst it would have been really, I think they'd have been really busy if they had set up a treatment clinic on the plane. Yeah, I think they've done the hard work and the education. Yeah, I think they've shown us what's available from a really good soft tissue or sports therapist.

And I think that's been really, really helpful because now we can spread the word about, you know, have you considered going to a really good sports tissue therapist or a really good sports therapist, you know, as a place where the chiropractor or video or, you know, somebody like that. I think it's definitely on a lot of people's variety. Which is interesting because we were just talking off air, weren't we?

There's not really a register or anything, Carl and Jenny, for people to find if they needed help. If somebody is listening to this and they think that they could get benefit from a soft tissue therapist or something, how do they, it's word of mouth, isn't it? There isn't a register or a list yet. Maybe there's one in the pipeline. Some of the soft tissue therapist associations, they do have the registers, but they're not widely known about.

I think it's, as you say, I think it tends to be much more word of mouth.

And it's difficult as well because, as we all know, we each have different specialities, don't we? And choosing somebody off a list sometimes isn't always going to give you what you really want.

And you know how many times you're going to go back and keep trying somebody else until you find the one you want it's tricky it's difficult i guess this is what we learned with kobe wasn't it like a zoom calls and from what we've talked about the qualities which you have aren't all about just what's in your hands so maybe with a some kind of zoom call you can find out if you can connect with that person and listen to their experiences and that sort of stuff so maybe,

in both ways you know i think on the show not long ago i think it was with joe turner and she made a hugely valuable point about how therapists need to know if the patient or client perspective client who's come to see them if if you as a therapist think this isn't going to work i haven't got the skills for you or you need to know when you say you know what i'm going to refer you to somebody else and not worry about it it's nothing

it's not tiring you it's not tiring the other person it's just not all relationships will click together we need to think accept that a little bit more be kinder to ourselves as therapists you know and refer patients or clients on as and when, but yeah well at least people haven't got a problem now all they've got to do is get in contact with one of you two and yes you put on there and we're sorted so there you go right fantastic

i don't want to keep you for any longer than you kindly agreed to so here's 905 so thank you again so much for your time and there's lots more we could have talked about but i think also we've covered so much it's been massive massively informative insight into both being there as a competitor and also being there as a therapist and some really beautiful information coming out So thank you, everybody.

Right thank you those who joined us live as well appreciate it very kind of you we will be back like i said next week if you want to join us live listen to the podcast and you like the idea of coming along and asking our guests questions live then it's going to be wednesday okay not next tuesday it'll be next wednesday still at eight o'clock going live on youtube or facebook whichever you prefer and my guest is going to be dan wheelsdan metcalf if

you want to look up on youtube just do a wheels down search wheels down metcalf and you'll see his incredible story um and the amazing features he's doing now very empowering and very empowering stuff see what i did there yeah and and yeah come along because yeah absolutely incredible such a such a great talker and and really motivating and and honestly it's worth coming along and joining his life just to ask questions and react to what he's going to say no filter i think that's his

other nickname as well as wheels down so it's going to be a really great hour really will be not challenging at all and so yeah come along for that otherwise as always available it will be on the podcast the same as this one if you do listen to the podcast and please please please please please for to help get the great information from our guests out there just leave a rating and a review it takes a couple of minutes so yeah hopefully see

some of you live for that but thanks again sam may jenny barnes carla vickerstaff and jenny lane thank you so much for your time thank you thanks thank you for having us oh no it's absolutely wonderful i really appreciate you giving up of time it's absolutely brilliant so thank you right take care of each other and hopefully see some of you soon. Music.