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Hello there, welcome on into the Sports Fix podcast. My name is Darcy Waldgrave. Got me for the duration. It is a Wednesday. It's the twelfth of Mark twenty twenty five. Coming up on today's Fix, We're going to talk with Mike Hester. He's on rugby Participation Development Manager. As the game looks at implementing a number of changes across the junior rugby ranks, including the sizes of the team, the sizes of the field.
The list goes.
On, why are they doing it, what do they want to achieve? What is the actual proposal? Mike joins us on that shortly, Formula one gets underway this weekend at Albert Park in Melbourne. It is a massive weekend for Liam Lawson. Finally here's a full time drive.
It is with Red Bull.
What faces them for this opening weekend and indeed the rest of the season.
I'll let you know.
After that we open the doors of the chamber and get Smith News Talks. He'd beat Rugby editor joins us as we take a look at the big sports stories of the day. That's our plan for the fixed.
So let's do it in other news.
Let's tune in now to the voices of sport for today. Discipline that's the constant buzzword and Super Rugby and Hurricanes prop Paselio Tossi is well aware of his team's weakness. They've been given six yellow cards in four games.
Out just thought discipline. It was probably number one, giving away too much penalties and like a strong team like one and when we let them in tight twenty two, a team that will just capitalize on that. So we can get the penalty countdown and keep the yellow cards till the minimum, and then I feel like we could probably see someone broke.
Billionaire Jim Ratcliffe, fresh after pulling the poor Poor Me card, is now crowing about a brand new stadium for EPL strugglers Manchester United, after fleeing from a Zordwake's contract is now promising the world and I'm sure people trust his latest flight of fancy.
I think it will create enormous starling for the North of England. I'm for Manchester and Oxford economics who've done a study on it. Reckon that that would be in the reason seven billion pounds per annum.
Well you think that, I just think it should pay your bills. And Jastevanga, former Warrior who now applies as trade.
With Manly, has had a super tough time after.
His great friend and former Junior Warriors teammate Roman Toymata passed away.
You know, I've been struggling forward the last couple of weeks.
She had to come home and.
Put them through it. So yeah, it's going to be a mitional for sure.
You know, I get a mational just thinking about it.
Now.
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EBB, and it's a welcome out on podcast to Mike hester he Us on Rugby's participation, developed and manager.
Welcome to the podcast, Mike, thanks for having me on.
Well thanks for joining us. This very interesting story. Another tweak I suppose in the way rugby is rolled out specifically aimed at the youth, which of course is the Green Shoots. Isn't it really of the sport? You've got to look after that? So could you tell us nice and simply what exactly this proposal is?
All this rollout is going to be what are we looking at?
Yeah, So just to set that up, we've been going through a whole series of changes over the last five years around our small blacks development model, and so that's where kids learn how to play the game from when they're very little right through to when they're sort of ready to transition to the adult version of the game.
So over the last five years we've been steadily working through a number of ages and stages, and the principle behind those changes is obviously to create more meaningful minutes for kids playing the game and the way that we want them to play, in the way they want to play, reducing this sort of complexity in the structures where it's not really necessary because they're not really able to contest, and also making sure the game design sort of seats
that suits their needs physically, mentally, cognitively, et cetera. And so a lot of that's around principles of smaller sided games for longer. So the changes that have been introduced over the last sort of four or five years have been sort of under six through to under eleven space. We've got one more change in the under ten space which will just close that piece of work off which gets introduced next year. And what we're now starting to turn our minds to is proposals around what would happen
around the under twelve, under thirteen, under fourteen space. And so some of the thinking there is around, okay, as kids are moving into those stages, around physical maturation, what's the right level of rugby that suits their needs, that engages them, helps them feel like they're progressing, but also is appropriate for their age and stage.
So at the moment this is a proposition, it's not set in stone yet what are you going through in order to make sure this does actually get its traction and start.
Yes, So we spent the last year doing a lot of work both here in Zealand but also overseas looking at other systems, trying to learn learn as much as you can around you know, where is youth sport looking what does it look like in terms of the future, And we've developed a series of proposals around what sort of under twelves, under thirteens, under fourteen's will look like.
And this year we started to talk to our communities, clubs and schools, provincial unions, stakeholders, parents, et cetera to then engage what's what's their appetite for those changes? How might we best staged them answering any questions they've got around the rationale. We know that it will invoke some strong reactions because it always does in this space. People have want the best for their kids, and they want they'll have a picture of what that looks like in
terms of their rugby experience. But ultimately, we need to make sure that the game fits the players by agent stage, and so we want to share that thinking with them and say, look, what is what we think it looks like. To ensure that the game continues to thrive, we retain more kids in the game so they move into the sort of teenage space and then ultimately at rugby, whether that's professional community, you know, we just want to create the best opportunites we can for everybody.
So what pushbacks are you expecting from what you've done so far? Where is going to be the area where players, parents, schools and the light go.
We don't like.
This, you know, I guess probably people have a strong view about you know, if it doesn't look like fifteen outside rugby with full lineouts and scrums and all the systems and structures that go with it it's not really rugby. But the reality is we've been moving from a sort of game centric approach where we're just trying to make players fit that kind of mode of play, to more participant centric approach where we're trying to make sure the
game fits the players. We know that fifteen's is a really important part of the experience as it's now sevens, but there's other ways that people want to play, both in terms of how they learn but also how they engage,
so contact and contact format's become really important. So where we are expecting pushback is just through the change of In some cases kids are playing for Themoside Rugby now at eleven and twelve years old, we're proposing that that be deferred to later, probably in their thirteen or fourteen year old space, and also not introducing to the same degree scrums and lineouts with the same complexity, both in terms of size and in contest when the kids are
not quite ready to be profiled into those positions. We don't quite know what they're going to look like through meturation, but also because they're not able to safely contest them. So we don't want to have undue influence of these system and structures when naturally we want to create more minutes with playing open rugby, unstructured play, more autonomy around making rugby decisions.
The physical maturation, that's always going to be a difficult one. Kids grow at different paces, different speeds, in different sizes, So.
I suppose drawing a line around.
That it almost too hard to do. It has to be pretty much age based more.
Than anything to some degree.
But what we do know is that you've got big numbers and you have team sizes that are small, then it cracks the opportunity for sitt biobending by age and weight. So obviously a metropolitan centers, a number of them have weight grades. They're always challenged in terms of as the team sizes grow, then those weight grades become quite hard to support. But with the shift back to smaller sided
teams for longer, it might create the opportunity. Time will tell, but for more weight grades to main relevant for longer in those in those junior grades, and so it'll be interesting to see how that plays out, but we certainly think that that might create some opportunities.
So it's about increasing enjoyment. It's about keeping kids playing the game from when they start and encouraging parents, I suppose as well to keep their children in the game. The elephant in the room he has got to be concussion, doesn't it. Mike, how if you address that because a number of parents so we don't want our children playing this sport. It's dangerous. You mentioned some safety measures there, but how does that work with the concussion debate.
Well, we know that concussions in the junior space are actually roughly low. We see concussion rates probably more of a focus for us to address and the sort of teenage and adult space. But that's not to say that we're taking our off the ball in terms of safety.
In terms of what's happening between the white lines. Obviously, it's been a big focus on reducing tackle height and so that continues to be a focus for us, and we've see the benefits of that already globally in terms of the impact of lowering tackle height and getting heads out of the same airsplace. Some of these changes that we're making in the junior framework are actually also coach centric and that we're trying to lighten a load a bit for coaches about the curriculum they have to deliver
at each agent stage. So that can actually focus on the real critical view tackle height and successful ball carry or confident ball carrier, two of those things, whereas previously when they've had to also deal with that as well as scrums and mine outs and big numbers, it means that the coachable moments around those critical safety bits gets compromised,
so that's also potentially a benefit. And then more broadly, the more choices people have, the more opportunity they have to choose the kind of rugby that they want to
play in. So we know rip has been a really successful, well loved part of our game under sixes and the sevens, but that largely up until a few years ago was sort of the end of the non contact sort of opportunity for kids, whereas in more recent times we've introduced rip rugby and we're now part of the sort of world Rugby Tea one rugby troll roll out across the world, and so we'll be releasing that over the next year or so into in the New Zealand system. And that's
a non contact variant. Produces all of the sort of moments and the game sense that we want, but it's a non contact variant, and so we just have to help normally is legitimize these different ways of playing and.
Our participation in development. Manager Mike Hester, thanks very much for your time here on News Talk ZB. You have a wonderful week thanks he having me on sort of sex. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and this weekend everybody gets to dine out on the pudding. That is Liam Lawson, the young New Zealand hot shoe out of Puki Koi who takes up one of the hardest jobs in Formula One, teammate to Maxvistappen in Red Bull. The ability of Liam to achieve clarity this weekend is
key for his success. We all know how good a pedlar he is. We all know about his history in various formula right the way from his cart days as a young man. What we don't know is how well he'll deal with the crushing pressure from the Formula one world. That's team owners, are the drivers, the media, the fans. Everything is going to be focused on Liam Lawson this weekend. He is the golden child, here's the next big thing
in Formula One. He's battled long and hard to achieve his dream of finding a seat on the grid of the biggest, fastest, scariest, most expensive global sport there is, and that is Formula one. He's dreamed of this his entire life. But now he's got to push all that to one side. He's got to forget his dreams, forget his aspirations, forget what people have said about him, forget what people are saying about him. Now it's about performance and performance only.
It's clarity.
As the great violinist to Hudi Menewan used to say, learn everything you can, know your craft inside out, and when it comes to performance, forget it all and just play. And in Liam's case, all of us build up all of his career. He has to leave that to one side and race pure racing clarity, and then he'll get the best of himself in what promises to be a massive year for Liam Lawson. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Yum, yum yum.
We are now in session of sports, and the door swings open and the chamber is darkened with the shadow of z b Rugby.
Editor Elliott Smith. Elliott, was that a bit too much?
Mate?
I liked it?
Yeah, you did well.
You're a vast character in so many ways, so you do you do cast a shadow? Thanks for joining us in here. Let's talk about one of the biggest sports stories of the last couple of days, and this is this concept of a rugby shakeup for junior rugby. We've been listening to them responsible for that, Mike Hester, and he's having rugby participation in Development Manager. It's a slow process. It's been going on for a while. Are they hitting in the right direction.
I think they are. I like these ideas.
I think we all know the issues that rugby has attracting and retaining talents, and that is more of a secondary schools into beyond level. But it's also about the kids and making it fun and enjoyable for them. You're not gonna be in all black because you scored a million tries when you're eight years old or nine years old, but you do learn to love the game at that stage.
That's exactly it.
That's what they need to do. They need to get that addiction. It sounds terrible, hardly drug pushes, but they need to get into this game.
Go.
I want to do that.
I love doing this, not the vagaries of how you're pushing it at a scrum with seven or team.
There's time to figure that out, and they can watch the professionals and learn that way while not having to put it out on the training field. I think the more ways you can attract and retain kids into the game for longer, you know, it could be three people aside, sex, plavate people aside, nine, whatever they come up with.
Are they having fun?
Are they having fun?
And it always their key isn't at that lowerly.
Because it plants the seed for a lifetime of following rugby, enjoying rugby rather than playing on the iPads or watching techtoc or whatever it might be. And if you get that seed planted, you know, it becomes rooted in you.
You follow that sport for life. I know I was the same. I was utterly useless as a kid playing rugby.
And didn't play for that long in all honesty, but that was where you know, the love of the game watching on TV. So the more you're exposed to it, the better. And if these are the ways. By reducing team numbers and not specializing in positions until a wee bit older, then I think you do capture more kids, which is what we want.
Playing the game problematic in the transition, though, once you get to the end of year teen or whatever they come up with, and then suddenly go on to the proper full game. Is there too much of a jump I created well?
Or I think there is a genuine question around that, around when the right time to leapers, whether it's when you go into high school at year nine and ten, whether it's when you start playing at a certain weight restriction you know, when you do get to that point
as well. I think there are questions around it. But you know, I don't think you know, there's a lot of rugby schools out there that pride themselves in their first fifteen, but that's still three sort of years until it gets that first fifteen level where you're learning to play the game. You begin to specialize in a position.
You play it at fifteen on fifteen, Maybe going in out of year ten's a week bit too late, But I think you learn a lot more about the game by playing with fewer people than you do playing as part of a bigger group.
It's all the argument around the maturation of players, how big they get, how fast they get there. But this is such a movable feast it's almost impossible to make any rules around that. We don't know how fast kids grow mentally or physically, so there has to be some parameters at least it's being looked up, looked at. And then there's the elephant in the room, the pagoderm and the parlor. Concussion is.
That tar above everything.
I think it does. But I think there's a lot of misinformation around concussion out there at the moment, and I think the big worry is the repeated knocks at training, not so much in game.
Which of course are bad, but it's that over and over.
Repetition at training, putting your head in dark places, putting your head, you know, into that contact area at training. Now, if you're reducing team numbers, you're probably less likely to be playing in those sort of collisions. So ultimately, I
think it should be a safer sport. So it's not you know, obviously in games of serious and we've seen a number of those, but it's about that repetition at training that we need to stamp out, and with those smaller groups it might go a bit of a way of doing so, you know.
It's accumulative concussion concept isn't and that's well known now. So how much time do you spend training to what degree do you train? There are risks associated with all sports, but it's a big one with rugby because it is presumed by a lot of mums and dads particularly, Hey, this is dangerous.
We don't want our kids in it.
So maybe if there's a spread, maybe there's more room to play, maybe it's not so intense. That might help ower. But that's a that's a real problem for not only he's the only run global right.
Yeah, absolutely, And look, once these kids grow up and can mactely their own informed decisions about whether they want to play or not and put themselves into a position where, you know, injuries happen. You know, obviously parents are going to be concerned. But all you can do is mitigate the possible risks as best you can, and I think this goes some way to doing so.
Yeah, there's an argument a life's dangerous.
Sorts of horrible things can happen to you doing all sorts of sport, like you know, tiger Woods, all sorts of horrible things have happened and golf, but maybe not necessarily because of golf. I think maybe he dragged some of it on himself, but he or he's out again, I had no idea so erupted killes tendon out.
Yeah, and this is just around the home.
I assume it was in the act of maybe doing some training at home.
He hasn't specified too much around it.
But say what you want about Tiger Woods, his presence is still felt at Major's. You know, when he turns up Tiger's there, he's one of the storylines of the week, even at his advanced age for a professional golfer.
He actual added that for a professional golf because he's still a younger.
He's but you know, in terms of professional golfers, you look at the guys out there on tour at the moment that are killing a Scottish Scheffler, all those players that are on tour winning tournaments. He is a lot older than them, and so you know, he still has this remarkable aura about him, as anyone with his wrecker would. But maybe it's time for him just to give the top level professional what. You know, he can still roll
into the Masters every year. He's got guaranteed invite for life to Augusta, but you know, maybe he needs to go.
And duel that.
So why does he keep playing them?
I think there's unfinished business there, and the fact that he's not going out on his turns. Maybe he should have gone out after he won the Masters in twenty nineteen. But that's easy to say in Richros bit easy for us to say in the chamber are pining about, you know, golfers and when to call it quits and professional sports people. But I think he's unfinished business there for him. He's
got nothing left to prove in golf. But obviously there's you know, jack necklace record and all these other things that are still there that he'd love to achieve for his career is out. Hard to see him doing that. Now, Maybe you should transition into the seniors to all the champions Tours. It's now known.
Look, how good would be to see Tiger Woods and Stephen Elker jeweling.
I was going to say, how good would be watched Tiger Woods getting thrashed by Elko?
Yeah, who says no apart from Tiger, Yeah, they'd be hiding entertaining. Look, yeah, sports people very rarely get to go out on their own terms, and it feels like Tiger's body is just letting him down at the moment.
All right, remove yourself from the chamber.
Elliott Smith, sports news journalists for News Talk ZB and of course our rugby editor as well.
Thanks very much for your time.
Thanks having me, Sports, Sex and Complete.
That is the Sports Fixed podcast for Wednesday, the twelfth of March twenty twenty five. My name is Darcy water Grave, looking forward to you joining us right the way through the week on the Fixed. Can do that by subscribing that way, This will turn up in your inbox on a regular basis right the way through the weekend. If you want a bit of interactive sports talk, well you can get that on Sports Talk between seven and eight pm Monday to Friday. Jason Pines got the job on Monday.
You with me Tuesday through Friday. And if only one day of Piney's not enough, will you get plenty of him come the weekend weekend Sport Saturday and Sunday twelve at noon through the three pm. That's we'll find the pine Man. You've enjoyed it. If you have, tell your friends, tell your family, get them to subscribe as well. Have a wonderful rest of your day. I'm Darcy Watergrave.
We'll catch you tomorrow.
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