Lia: Welcome to the Sparky Life. I'm your host, Lia Lamela. Here we discuss universal themes of self-discovery, survival, self-confidence, compassion, and a complex family dynamic wrapped up in a construction career journey. Let's talk about women in the trades, construction careers, and how to construct your career. Join me on today's episode.
I hope you guys are ready to have an energized day. I don't know if all of you are as much of a morning person as I am. One of my favorite times of the day is the morning. It's super exciting. You never know what's gonna happen. Anything is possible. And a weird thing that I totally like, am in love with about the morning, is when I am driving on the road at 4:00 AM and I'm in the middle of Southern West Virginia, so just so you know, it's, it's stark. There's no one, no one around, no buildings, no cars. I'm on the road all by myself. You can see the stars, the moon, everything is so beautiful and it kind of feels like there has been an apocalypse. And I'm one of the only few people left in the world, which is it strange that that's somehow calming? I don't know if you are digging the whole apocalypse vibe, but definitely having that peace and quiet in the morning, just being excited for the day to start, it's one of my favorite times of the day. All right, on today's episode, we have an electrifying guest. I can't wait to introduce you to.
Zoe Kearney is an astrophysicist, and yes, she is as bright as the stars. You may be asking yourself, what does this have to do with women in the trades and construction careers? Stay tuned to find out. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Zoe.
Zoe: Of course, Of course.
Lia: Would you mind just introducing yourself to everyone, letting everyone know how awesome you are?
Zoe: Yeah. Alrighty. I am Zoe. I am currently in Montreal, Canada, doing my master's in physics and more specifically astrophysics at McGill University. I'm about to finish up and then I plan on switching gears a little bit and heading into science policy for the remainder of my career.
Lia: Zoe is in a very male dominated field. It's Zoe Kearney, correct?
Zoe: Yes, yes, yes.
Lia: Nailed it. You'll have to, you have to bear with, with my quirkiness.
Zoe: I love it. I love it.
Lia: When I met Zoe, she was helping me learn more about electrical engineering and physics and, and kind of guiding me, tutoring me. And it came up that in my classes, setting electrical work, that a lot of the guys didn't wanna create study groups with me, that I had a very hard time engaging my other classmates who were all male. And Zoe was very compassionate and empathetic because, surprise, in a male dominated field, she is experiencing something similar. Now, typically, I'm always talking about construction careers and trades, which are geared generally outside of the college realm, but I thought that this was super valid and interesting that even in a collegiate atmosphere, you are experiencing the same things. So can you talk to us a little bit to us about that journey. First of all, what sparked you on that journey?
Zoe: Well, it all kind of began, um, in undergrad. So I have my undergrad in a dual degree of astrophysics and physics. And it, uh, it kind of, I didn't really have one thing that brought me into astro. I just always kind of liked it. I was always intrigued by the stars and kind of your, your normal story of how someone gets into, uh, studying stuff like that. And, um…
Lia: What do you mean normal story of how people like I, what, what, excuse me?!
Zoe: Everyone's always like, “I looked at the stars, and I was intrigued.”
Lia: I never looked at the stars and was like, “Ooh, I'm intrigued.” No, for me it was a little different. I wanna hear, were you fascinated with these beautiful things that you see so far away? I mean, how…
Zoe: Yeah. I think I always loved how astronomy in particular is a really wonderful, uh, combination of art and a lot of history, and then also science.
Lia: Wow.
Zoe: So I really loved that intersection and that it's one of the oldest sciences and you can really trace it through like a lot of different cultures and…
Lia: That's so cool. See, I never knew that.
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. It, you can date it back to, I believe, Iranians were the first astronomers, and then all different cultures across the world all had their different forms of astronomy. And it's really beautiful, uh, especially trying to incorporate all the different forms of astronomy with what we know today as astronomy, which is definitely more Eurocentric version of astronomy. But indigenous astronomy and all types of astronomy are really, really cool and interesting. So…
Lia: That's kick ass. That's awesome. Really, I had no idea that took, whenever I thought of astronomy, I always thought of very woowoo. I, I didn't, I never put astronomy and science together. If I did, back in the day, I probably would've been tickled pink by it and been made way more interested, so that's awesome. That's awesome.
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah, it's really, it definitely gets lost a little bit when you're doing it because people definitely like to emphasize the science side of it because that's what gives it, quote-on-quote, “value”. But no, it's really just such a beautiful combination of the stories of humanity throughout the, throughout the ages. So…
Lia: Aw.
Zoe: That's what I really loved about it. Yeah. And it's, there's something very poetic about it and yeah, so…
Lia: Romantic. Very romantic. Yeah.
Zoe: So that's kind of what got me, got um, me into it. And then once I was in astronomy, I discovered physics and I was like, wow, this is pretty cool.
Lia: So cool.
Zoe: Yeah. So I was like, yeah, I guess I could, you know, keep on going with physics. And what I didn't realize was my degree was really physics heavy the first couple of years, so I didn't really get to experience much astronomy till later, which I was a little sad about, but I did really enjoy the physics, so it worked out for me. I know a lot of people struggle with, with that a little bit, which is also why it's…
Lia: *whispers* I’m one of them. I love, I love physics, but I have like a love hate cuz to wrap my brain around some of those abstract topics.
Zoe: Definitely. Definitely.
LIa: It's, it's work.
Zoe: Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. But I've always loved math, and physics just felt, yeah, there's so much good math and, it just kept going and I kept being able to do it, so it was really good.
Lia: Now when did you search and notice that the amount of females in your group were dwindling?
Zoe: Um, it was pretty early on. Unfortunately my year in my undergrad degree had an unusual low number of women in classes and just in my degree in general. So the year below me had a lot more women. I don't know if it was, it was just kind of an outlier. At the beginning of my degree, I remember having a really good friend who was a woman and she ended up leaving physics and astro. It wasn't really for her after the first year. So after that I really felt the isolation. There were probably about 60, 70 physics students in my year and there were probably about four or five girls, so it was really low.
Lia: Yeah. Wow.
Zoe: Usually that number is usually, more closer to 20%, but as you can see, that was more like 8%.
Lia: Yes.
Zoe: So really low. And I didn't really connect super well with a lot of the women in my year. And so I was left to either befriending the guys and trying to kind of break into the little group that they had or, uh, doing things on my own. So, that was a difficult thing to navigate, I would say.
Lia: Talk to me about breaking into the group and what was that experience like?
Zoe: Yeah, it, it happened over I'd say a couple of years. Um, I had some friends who I had like right from the beginning, and this is kind of a bummer that it kind of happened this way, but I definitely felt a lot more comfortable with the men of color in my, uh, in my year. It was minorities sticking together a little bit.
Lia: Yes. I can relate. Yep.
Zoe: Kind of unfortunate that that's the way it went. Um, and I didn't actually notice that till years later.
Lia: Same.
Zoe: Yeah. But it was just a little bit tricky because there was either a weird like, romantic aspect happening with the guys, or I had to like, really just try to be one of the guys.
Lia: Let's clarify. I don't want any misunderstandings.
Zoe: Oh yeah.
Lia: Because I get this a lot from guys in the field is, it's almost like, well, you are gonna cause the romantic attachments.
Zoe: Oh yeah.
Lia: Or it's, it's on you, so…
Zoe: Oh yeah.
Lia: By weird romantic attachments, lay it out for everyone on kind of what, what you mean by this.
Zoe: Yeah. So it's very much you have to act a very specific way when you're interacting with them, as to not invite flirtatious behavior. So being too friendly can be misinterpreted Yeah.
Lia: Being too nice. Can be misinterpreted.
Zoe: Yeah. But on the other side, you have to be careful not to go too far or else you're gonna be cold and…
Lia: Bitch. Yep. Then, then you're the bitch.
Zoe: Oh yeah. So I definitely aired more on the latter side just to avoid anything
Lia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Zoe: But that was difficult in its own way because then guys thought I was standoffish and like frightening or I don't, I don't know.
Lia: Yes.
Zoe: Super weird and I was just trying to hold my own and have people respect me.
Lia: Right. Did you miss the camaraderie? Did you feel the loneliness?
Zoe: Yeah, definitely. There were always times when I'd like hear about groups of guys getting together to like work for hours and sometimes I would be invited or I would be there anyways, and I just never felt very comfortable in the environment either. They were like, joking about things that I just didn't really wanna joke about or they were like, doing things outside of class, going to dinners or going to lunch and stuff, that was like, a little weird if I joined.
Lia: Yeah. I've experienced the same thing. Um, I want so badly to have that camaraderie with my coworkers. And they would invite you out in a group, and then you have to play that game with, well how many are actually going, cuz you never wanna go out one-on-one, which, just never put yourself in that situation. And then it's how welcoming are they, go, because then if they feel uncomfortable, you feel it. And then it's, you're the elephant in the room kind of situation. And then you also have to adjust of what to say in certain situations because yeah, you wanna join into the conversation, but sometimes they might be discussing a topic that's maybe not something you want to partake in, but at the same time you don't wanna ostracize yourself.
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yep.
Lia: It's a, it's amazing what a juggling experience it actually is.
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I was lucky enough to find a couple of guys that I felt really comfortable around being and I ended up working in smaller groups with them and that worked a lot better towards the latter side of my degree.
Lia: Nice.
Zoe: But it's hard because also, as we all went, cuz we all started in physics with kind of those same core classes, but as we all went into our respective kind of specialties, you take different classes and then you get kind of split up from those people that you've established good work relationships with. So…
Lia: Yes. That is such a cool correlation because when you work in the trades and construction fields, we have the same dynamic where I'm with a crew, I've finally established myself as a valued member of the crew. I, I know how they work, they know how I work. We're a great team. I worked really hard to like prove myself, and then I get moved to another job. And it's like I'm starting all over again.
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
Lia: And then you started off your career in one direction and then kind of decided to veer a little into another direction. What introduced that?
Zoe: I was really struggling my senior year of undergrad to know what to do next. Pretty much everyone was going into grad school and I just knew that that wasn't the right step for me next. Um, so I knew I wanted take a gap year and one professor suggested that maybe I explore science policy. And that was a really interesting, just keyword word that sparked a little bit of interest in me and…
Lia: I had a geek out, I can't help it. I’m like “Yeah!” Tell me about that spark!
Zoe: And yeah, I was just like, oh, I've never really heard of this before. And it's really weird in academic academia because you're surrounded by professors who have had this one career path. So naturally they don't talk about any of the other career paths that you can take, once you have a degree in something like physics and it's always just, you are going into academia, like this is the path. And in reality like 20% or something of people actually do that path. It's, it's such a low number. And, but we get very little supervision in and um…
Lia: Guidance
Zoe: …support Yeah. To explore those other career paths.
Lia: That was my experience when I went to college. It's one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about introducing construction careers and trade jobs and skilled jobs back into our culture and community and kind of debunking this sense that having a trade career is somehow less than a college degree. Because that's what I experienced. And I, I have a lot of very close friends set, graduated, I'm talking like, you know, NYU, Harvard, like big names and they come out with six figures worth of debt and they're only making 50,000 a year just breaking into their industry. And they can't catch up.
Zoe: Yeah. It's such a bad system. And convincing everyone that they need to go into academia or they need to go into other career paths that like right out of college mean that you are staying in debt or accumulating more debt is just, it feels like this super predatory, I don't know.
Lia: Set you up for a failure. Yeah,
Zoe: Yeah. Really. Exactly.
Lia: And there are some things, obviously I believe in academics, I'm very passionate about learning, continued learning. I think it's important. And there are wonderful things that a college environment brings to the table. However, it's very misleading. There's such a lack of guidance.There are certain degrees out there, forgive me, that are useless that really have nothing to do with what you end up doing.
Zoe: Yeah, definitely.
Lia: Or you can't even translate it into a viable career.
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. And it's so funny because there's this weird like, narrative in physics that almost paints physics as one of those degrees.
Lia: Which is crazy to me because physics, if anything, is in everything!
Zoe: Exactly. And it's just so weird. And yeah, I just remember there are some really toxic guys in some of my like, early years who would be like, “why are we even doing physics? This is so pointless. We're gonna make no money our whole lives and be miserable being physics professors.” And that's just awful to be surrounded by that narrative. And, that was definitely, I don't know if that was everyone's experience, but that was definitely mine a little bit. And so I was just, wow, I, there was no other option for me, but going into academia, I will not have any other option, anything to do with this degree. Yeah. So.
Lia: But then the shift that you decide to make, talk to us a little bit about that. Cause I'm not familiar, I don't really understand what that looks like.
Zoe: Yeah, yeah. So I'm still figuring it out honestly.
Lia: That's fair.
Zoe: But it's definitely really challenging to transition from being in the academy to being in industry or in government work that doesn't connect directly to your degree. But it's, it's a lot of just kind of following trains of knowing people and making connections. That's definitely what I've discovered. And really finding the people who had similar career paths because they are out there. And then asking them what steps they took and how they could maybe be willing to support you in your next steps. And so I've been kind of collecting those people over the last couple of years and kind of bringing all of that information together to inform, kind of my next steps. I would say. I did decide to get a master's in physics, even though I knew I was kind of going down the, the path of science policy. But that kind of ended up being a very calculated decision because a lot of the time the people in science policy have masters or PhDs in the hard sciences. So that was something I saw and I was like, I don't know if I can do a PhD in the, the, the full PhD in physics, but I, I can at least do a master's and have a little bit of leverage in that world, which unfortunately you need for people to believe you, when you're talking about science,
Lia: Credibility! You have great introspection, you have a wonderful observer. And the fact that you took the initiative, you know, my heart goes out to those who have more difficulty in this area. And because you, you identify the lack of guidance, you realize if I want to pursue my passion in this subject and make a viable career, I really need to identify those who have done it.
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah.
Lia: And look for that network, look for those mentors.
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah.
Lia: And emulate their path.
Zoe: Yeah, definitely.
Lia: That's a skill. That's a skill that some of us have innately and some of us need to learn. So that's really powerful.
Zoe: Yeah. And honestly, I'm still learning how to develop that skill because I was really blessed in undergrad with having just an amazing advisor.
Lia: Oh wow. That's wonderful.
Zoe: Yes. And I think she was honestly the reason that I kind of kept in physics and was successful in the ways that I was, I really realized exiting undergrad, that that was super rare and I, I don't think I found someone who's like a really good, like solid mentor for me in this transition. But I definitely have people who are on the outfield who I can go to and ask questions and stuff.
Lia: And especially because it's uh, so male dominated, I'm sure it's very difficult to find a female that have walked this path.
Zoe: Yeah, definitely.
Lia: I don't know if you're familiar with the Talent Code by Daniel Coyle, but he would travel around to all these successful groups or teams like the Navy Seals and break down, like, how did they become so successful? What did they do differently that elevates the group?
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah.
Lia: It's a great book. Highly recommend, by the way.
Zoe: Yeah, definitely. Will read
Lia: Yeah. I ask all of our guests this analogy because it was a very impactful experience for me when I entered the trades. What's in your tool belt? I mean this figuratively, could you share with us a key set, one of your accumulated capabilities that has helped you achieve your goals? The reason that this means so much to me is because when I entered the trades, there are certain things that the men have advantages over as opposed to me. And the beauty in that is I had to use my brain in figuring out what tools are gonna work for me so I can accomplish the same goal as them and how important it was to have the right tool to do that job. So extrapolating that theory to life. What's in your tool belt?
Zoe: I would say the big one for me is taking everything in. So really listening and taking some time to really learn about something before I give my opinion on it. And that sounds a little silly, but…
Lia: No, it doesn't sound silly at all.
Zoe: It comes in handy. Just being able to think whether it's in physics or you know, in like equity work and stuff, really taking the time to absorb the information that's around me and then digesting it before I then come out and say, okay, this is what I think. And it takes a little bit more time and it, it can be a little frustrating, uh, especially in physics and stuff when you're working as a group, cuz you, you don't have the answer right away. It takes me time to digest information, but I think that that's something that actually is really helpful because when I do come out with saying what I think or problem solving a problem in physics, it's usually well thought out. I have a lot to support usually what I, what I think.
Lia: Very well-rounded. It sounds you're willing to hear every different possibility. Get all of the information, different perspectives of the information in order to formulate a well thought out.
Zoe: And it can be hard because especially in like, physics and stuff that can be seen as, oh, you're not stepping up to, to say something, you're not fighting for your opinion yet. The timing of it can be challenging sometimes using that.
Lia: But I would think that approach in the end.
Zoe: Yes.
Lia: You know that where they say that with the hare and, and the turtle.
Zoe: Exactly. That's, that's exactly how I operate.
Lia: It was a real pleasure having you. I want to ask you one last question before we depart. What advice would you give women who are entering male dominated fields?
Zoe: Really find your community, other women? Um, now that I'm in grad school, I have a kind of a community of women and it is just such a game changer. Create somewhat of a community is, uh, really helpful, I would say.
Lia: Very powerful. Thank you so much Zoe. It is a pleasure. As usual, you've tingled all of my neuro receptors.
Zoe: It's so nice to talk to you.
Lia: After speaking to Zoe, I can feel my neuro pathways electrify. Zoe stresses to us about the importance of finding a community of females and a collection of women mentors, even just one. I see a common theme with the women that I speak to: isolation. This is one of the reasons why I started Sparky Life. We can strive to excel and improve our work environments and experience. I am passionate about creating dialogue and sparking conversations because I see that by doing this, it brings us together and builds our community. I can't wait to discover where this network of women will go next. Will you join me on this journey? Maybe we'll go as far as Zoe: to the stars and back. Where do you think we're going? Thank you for joining us. If you felt a spark in today's episode, I invite you to write a review. I'd love to hear what lit you up. Take what resonates with you. And if you'd like to hear more of the Sparky Life, please subscribe, like, follow and share. Until next time, create the sparks in your life.