Lia: Welcome to the Sparky Life Podcast, with Lia Lamela. Thank you for joining me every Thursday for tantalizing trade tales, compelling craftsman stories of struggle, heartache, and unparalleled success in blue collar careers. I share with you my electrical journey, experiences of insight through engaging banter with those I've met along the way. If you're interested in trade tales and industry fraught with excitement and risk, subscribe and be notified every Thursday when trade tales continue.
Today I’d like to introduce Brenda Tackaberry. She is a gender bias specialist and podcast host of Busting Gender Bias.
Brenda: Lia!
Lia: Hey!
Brenda: Hi, I made it.
Lia: Yay.
BrendaL How are you?
Lia: I'm good, how are you?
Brenda: Good.
Lia: You look very pretty.
Brenda: Oh, thank you.
Lia: Did you get all dressed up for me?
Brenda: No, Lia, I got all dressed up for me.
Lia: Oh, okay, well, I’ll take that!
Brenda: But yes, yes.
Lia: I'd like to introduce Brenda Tackaberry. She is a gender bias specialist and podcast host of Busting Gender Bias. Thank you so much for being here, Brenda.
Brenda: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited for the conversation that we're gonna have today. And I love your podcast and what you're doing too. So I'm very excited to be here.
Lia: Oh, the feeling is mutual. Brenda has a very interesting background. She actually knows what it's like to be in the trades. She knows what it's like to be in engineering. And so we're talking about trade careers, cabinet maker. And engineering. Both male dominated specs and both kind of like, in construction, but on, one on the side of being in the field and one on the side of being in an office.
Brenda: Yeah.
Lia: Please tell us about that.
Brenda: I think it'll probably be good to start by giving you a little bit of background on things like, my upbringing, on the way back. So I was raised in a family by a mom and dad who didn't really, like, there were no limitations to me on what I could and couldn't do. So, for example, my dad was a journeyman glass worker or glazer by trade, and he was of the vintage where, you know, around the house, I also saw him finish the basement, renovate a bathroom, put on a deck in a pergola in the backyard. Right. So, very, very handy. And he was always like, um, I was his apprentice since I was two, right, like I had a little peg set with a little wooden hammer and he would put me on the stairs and I would be hammering in the pegs while he was working in the backyard. And it was just something that I loved from a very young age. Right. And what I saw growing up was just a very hardworking, honest trades person who cared a lot about his craftsmanship. Right. And that was kind of ingrained in me from a very young age. So as his apprentice, he would be like, uh, hey Brenda, what do you think about how we should do this? Or what do you think we need for this? Right. So I, from a very young age, always had a seat at the table. You know, my critical thinking was developed from a very young age, my problem solving is probably one of my strongest skill skill sets because of how my dad raised me, basically. Right. And he said, you know, what sport do you wanna play? And I was like, dad, I wanna play soccer. He played soccer, right. So, of course I idolized him. So, um, I was enrolled in soccer and I was one of three girls in the city that I lived in who was playing soccer my very first year. So I played, I was, they split us up. So, um, they didn't put us all on the same team. So I played on a team where I was the only girl. My dad was the assistant coach, and I played with boys and against boys. And at the time I was just like, I wanted to play soccer and so I got to play soccer. But I know that my parents would've had to have done some sort of work in the background to get me to be able to play in the town that I lived in because we didn't have a girls league. Right.
Lia: I was gonna ask, cuz you're in Canada, right?
Brenda: Yeah.
Lia: So, okay. Cuz uh, and what age was this around?
Brenda: Like six.
Lia: Six. Okay.
Brenda: Six or seven. You know, I'm, I'm 40 now and so women's soccer wasn't really a thing, right, back then, right? Like, I know it's pretty huge now, but, uh, definitely wasn't a thing back then. Um, and it was a smaller town, so, but I guess the point is, it's like I didn't really, I wasn't aware of any challenges or roadblocks or barriers for me being a girl for doing what I wanted. Right. So then you kind of fast forward a bit, um, to school and I'm into math and science, I decided that I wanted to go into, get a degree that had to do with math and science. I still didn't really think that there were gonna be any barriers, or challenges to me, you know, because I'm, I'm smart, I'm a critical thinker, like I, I've got it going on. Like, no issues.
Lia: What could go wrong?
Brenda: Yeah. I just, I get to do what I want. It doesn't matter. When I was in engineering, I, uh, they had a group called Women in Science and Engineering and I was kind of like, eye roll, you don't need to be, you don't need a special group just cuz you're a woman. You don't need, um, you know, like if you work hard and you do good work, you'll have no issues. So I kind of scoffed at that. I did sort of start to see kind of gender bias, during that time where, you know, a lot of the groups again, um, in engineering women are, we're 19%. So only 19% of us were women in mechanical engineering. It was 9%. And by the time I graduated it was even less. So I did come across things like boys trying to kind of corner me into writing the report instead of doing the science or you know, like the offhanded uh, kinda inappropriate comments and that kind of stuff. But I still didn't really really think that it was a thing until I got into the working world. And literally, like my first month on the job, I was like, oh my god,
Lia: Really, the first month?
Brenda: Yeah.
Lia: Cause you, you were in engineering for 20 years, right?
Brenda: Uh, yes. Yeah. I was in the field for 20 years. But so like, things like I would be asked to get coffee, right? Like, that was the most overt, the most overt gender bias. It wasn't like they're not giving me the same opportunities that probably took a little longer to come out. Um, but just like the domestic duties around the office, it was a very small company. And, uh, I was like, no, no, I'm not getting you coffee.
Lia: You, you didn't sign up to be the receptionist?
Brenda: No!
Lia: That wasn't it?
Brenda: It's interesting. I was, uh, I would've been an overpaid administrator for sure, but definitely what I found out later, an underpaid engineer. My male, um, colleague from university got hired at the same company. He got paid more than me. He got a bigger bonus than me. He got more technical projects than me. That's where it's, it started coming out and he was like, Brenda, like he noticed it too. He was like, I feel bad cuz like you're, you know, writing due diligence reports and I'm like designing dams and fish ladders and…
Lia: And around what year was this? Because I'm..
Brenda: The first year….oh, like in 22, 2000 and, or sorry, it would've been 2000 and… what's the math on that, Lia?
Lia: I like that we're both like in math fields!
Brenda: Let's say in the early two thousands.
Lia: Okay. Early two thousand. Okay. The reason I'm asking is because I'm hearing such conflict, there's, there's such extremes today. Uh, on one side I'm hearing, what are you talking about? There is no wage gap. Like it's, we are, yeah. And then on the other side I'm like, I'm hearing of course there's a wage gap still, what are you talking about? I like to preface when specifically, cuz 2023, things are wild.
Brenda: Yeah. So I think the wage gap in Canada and the US is about the same. It's like 80 cents. Women make 80 cents for every dollar that a man makes
Lia: Approximately what we have here according to the stats. But I've heard arguments on both sides. So…
Brenda: Yeah. And then it's remained relatively unchanged in the last like 10 or 15 years. Like it might have been 76 cents. So that still has substantial impacts on our ability to contribute to the economy, right? But yeah. And then as I went into more technical roles and became a technical expert in my field, I noticed the bias, uh, like more starkly just in terms of like how I was treated, how I was spoken to, being cut off, being like overtly told that I was not in the right place or that I had to do, um, like smaller tasks because, um, it's a team and I was like, I was, I was born at night, but I wasn't born last night, like right? Like, the tasks that I should be doing, this isn't part of what my job description is. And so I had to learn to start setting boundaries, figuring out how to use my voice. And that kind of like, fed into my work as a gender bias specialist, is because I was experiencing it. I didn't know how to succeed in my career because of it and I went looking for resources to try and figure out how to still succeed, you know, like what I could do because changing the system is really daunting. Uh, but I wanted to know why things were happening, what was going on. Like cuz it was so messed up, but also like what I could do because you have like the patriarchal external patriarchy, which is being paid less, being spoken to poorly, not being given the same opportunities. And then you have internalized patriarchy, which is, I need to be pleasant, I need to be supportive, I need to be quiet. I can't make waves. Right. So I kind of went on this journey to figure out what I could do to work my way up. And then at the end of the day, I just decided that I didn't want that type of like, continual stress in my life. And so I decided to like take the battle to the outside, right, to the bigger playing field then instead of in my one company or my one job, but, I did also, um, as you mentioned, have a role working as a cabinet maker in the trades. And that was kind of right out of university. I decided after my job where they asked me to make coffee, I was like, this stuff isn't for me. And, uh, I went and I, um, moved out to the islands and I was a cabinet maker for a year and I freaking loved it. It was by far the best job that I've had post-graduation.
Lia: So the next question would be though, if it was the best job you ever had, why only a year?
Brenda: Hmm. Yeah. So when I moved out to the islands, Alberta, we have a really strong oil and gas industry. We have a really strong engineering industry, um, over in BC which is a province west of us. Their industry is a little different. And, um, even on the island, which is off the west coast of BC, their, uh, their industry is quite different and their cost of living is quite a bit higher. Their taxes, they get, uh, 15% tax compared to Alberta. We have five. So your groceries, your gas money.
Lia: Holy cannoli.
Brenda: Right? Um, living expenses were really high. It was, uh, I could talk all day about the societal pressures to like the shoulds that you have in your life, right? Because I had a lot of external pressure. I went through the engineering program, I worked as an engineer, and at that point, society believes that I should be working as an engineer. And so when I was working on the island as a cabinet maker, I was making $17 an hour and I was, it probably cost me $18 an hour to live. Right? And so, um, I had student debt and it was really just the choice was like, okay, I knew I didn't wanna do the same type of engineering work that I had been doing before, but I needed to pay off my student debt. I was paying like $800 to rent a room at my friend's place. And I was like, I could be paying that on a mortgage like I, it was just, um, pretty much financial, but had nothing to do with the love of the job. It was just, I wanted to, to get back, make some money, and then move back out to the island once I had all my debt cleared. And then, you know, life has a funny way of making you forget. So.
Lia: Well, look, it ended up bringing you to where you are, which is so important, so impactful. And who's to say that you would end up where you are now if it wasn't for being put in a position where you had to choose? It's, it's, it's pretty, at the end of the day, you need to survive. So.
Brenda: Yeah. And I think too, like, um, at the, if you talk about life's purpose or your dharma, I have, when I was a little girl, my favorite superhero was She-ra: Princess of Power. I'm not sure if you remember her.
Lia: I don't.
Brenda: Okay. Okay. Well you gotta, I'll send you the links, um, to some of the older clips. They have a newer version. It's not as good, but, the older version, She-ra is He-man’s twin sister.
Lia: Oh, okay! Once you said He-man, it was like, *click*!
Brenda: Yeah, exactly. So it's He-man’s twin sister. She was also a badass though. She had a horse that turned into a unicorn. She would hold up her sword and she would say, “For the honor of grace skull”. And then she would transform into this from this like normal girl into this like total badass superhero. And I used to walk around with, with my dad's contractor's ruler. So the triangle ones with the red stripe on one side and the black stripe on the other. And I used to go She-ra: Princess of Power, and I'm talking like, aw, I was probably like four or five when I started doing this. Right? So for me to be like championing for gender bias and stuff, it feels very right, it feels like, it feels like what I'm supposed to be doing. And it feels like I've been, uh, without knowing it, doing this my whole life. So.
Lia: Yes. Yes. This subject in particular is very hard to talk about in certain aspects today. I don't know your experience in Canada, but in the US, 2023, we don't understand the definition of gender.
Brenda: Mm-hmm.
Lia: We're, we're at that place. So let's start at the very ground basics for everyone. Let's like, make this from the ground up. Because when I first, when you first reached out to me, I was nervous to chat with you about this topic. And it's because of what's going on in our society today. I was like, holy cow, what is this gonna look like? And what I thought it was and what it is are not the same thing. So, to break it down for everyone, what's the definition of gender?
Brenda: Okay. Well, um, I would just, I guess I would start off by saying that as a little girl, uh, you know, so I told you about my role playing as She-ra. I also had Barbies. I also had a cabbage patch doll that I played house with. I also loved catching frogs down at the creek. I loved climbing trees. I loved jumping my bike off curbs, right. How much of that is like what I wanted to do versus what was modeled for me and provided for me, right? Um, and so, you know, I was labeled from a very young age as a tomboy. And to me, I was just a little girl who was doing exactly what she wanted and being authentic. Right? I guess I'll kind of pull it back out and I will say patriarchy. Oh, okay. Let me pull it back one more step. The conversation on gender and gender bias historically has been rooted in blame, shame, injustice, and anger, right? You've got women saying, we want equal rights, we want equal pay. Right. And you have men saying like, whoa, whoa. I'm a good person. Like this, I, you know, I have a mom and a sister and I love women. And so when you talk about gender or you talk about gender bias, that conversation is innately dysregulating for our nervous system because of what we've seen and what it's, what's been involved with it. Right. Patriarchy is another one of those words. You say it and people like, close off, they shut down, they're like, oh yeah. Oh God. Raging feminist. Next, right?
Lia: Yes. Yes. Especially now. Especially.
Brenda: Yeah. And so patriarchy is this umbrella and it's a system, a cultural system set up by men for men. And it's old, it's old. Like we're talking burning witches in the 1600s. We're talking way, way back. Okay. So this isn't anyone's fault. It doesn't make people shitty. It's what has been modeled for us by our parents, what was modeled for them by their parents and them by their parents, right? Like, it goes way back and it runs really deep. So in this patriarchal system, uh, it's like an umbrella. And underneath this umbrella, you have two very small well-defined boxes. You have one for boys and men, and one for girls and women. And then they say, if you are to be a man, you must be dominant. You must be strong, you must be outspoken. You must be goal-oriented. You must be a provider. And in the box for women, it says, you must be kind, you must be supportive, you must be pleasant, you must be easygoing, and you must serve, right? And this is, again, this is just because of, this is how things have been done for a very long time. So what happens when we take those words that we use to describe men and the words that we use to describe women, and then we say, if a man is not a provider, if a man is not outspoken, if he's not dominant, if he falls outside that, he's not a man. So we use this pressure, put men inside, back inside their box. And if we say women are not kind, they're not supportive, they don't, they're not pleasant, right? They're outside their box, and we go, oh, she's not a very good woman. Right. She's not who she's supposed to be. And this creates when, when men and women move outside of their traditional boxes, in our nervous system, it creates lack of safety because it's not how it has been. Right. And so, a bias is just something that our brain does. Uh, our nervous system is programmed to create biases to keep us safe. So our friend gets eaten by a sabertooth tiger. We now have a bias that all sabertooth tigers are harmful. Right? This is why our brain was developed the way it is. Now, fast forward a whole bunch of years, hundreds of years, we still have that same bias. It, it does us a favor because it allows us to take a large amount of information that's coming to us very quickly and make decisions to keep us safe. So the only reason we say that men have to be in this box and women have to be in this box, is because it creates safety in our body. Right. It's a nervous system, it's a nervous system response. It's how our brain has been trained to process information. So then you have men that are acting more supportive, that have high emotional intelligence, or women that have leadership skills that are bossy. I'm using air quotes. And what that does is it creates, um, lack of safety in our bodies. And the response you'll often see is outrage. So you see a man that's more femme, or a girl that's more masculine, wants to act differently than what their boxes prescribed. And we as people feel unsafe. So this is why the, the conversation is really challenging. Who, who are we to, to talk to a little six year old girl and call her a tomboy and label her like that. Right? Okay. Like, that is terrible, terrible stuff. So that is what I just described to you is like descriptive and prescriptive gender bias when men and women behave, other than how we're used to describing them. Um, and so that's why you'll see women in boardrooms getting so much pushback about being a bitch or having, being too bossy. Right. Or men that don't provide for their families. They often have, uh, mental health issues because they're not also given the empathy skills or the soft skills to talk about it. So they internalize a lot of stuff. So the system is harmful to everyone. Right.
Lia: Okay. Okay. All right. So is that the system overall creates more harm than good, is what you're saying? Is that correct?
Brenda: Yes. It, it creates harm for men, for women, for children. So everybody.
Lia: So everybody.
Brenda: So everybody, yes.
Lia: So, what shall we do, what's the solution there?
Brenda: Yeah. Well, the big one, Leah, is education. Um, because as soon as you say, uh, you know, a lot of people will say, oh, well, first of all, a lot of people say gender, people are not treated differently based on their gender. So in Alberta, the province that I live in, um, up in Canada, we have, uh, an association for our engineers and our geophysicists called APEGA, they did a five year study on looking at the barriers to women in engineering, because we have very low numbers, the numbers aren't increasing. And we have a very high attrition rate. Women on average in engineering last between five and seven years in the career.
Lia: Yeah. That's similar to the trades. Yeah.
Brenda: Yeah. And so what they did was, part of their study was they interviewed, they surveyed all of their members across Alberta, and they said, do you believe that gender plays a role in how people are treated in the workplace? And 82% of men did not believe that gender played a role in how people were treated in the workplace compared to like 70% of women believed that gender strongly played a role in how women were treated in the workplace.
Lia: Interesting.
Brenda: The biggest issue that I see is that you have people who are experiencing bias, marginalization, and maltreatment, and then a large portion of people who don't believe it's happening. So the first step is, uh, education. And, and part of what I do when I educate is I'm not just saying like, I go into workplaces and I educate on how bias is holding businesses back and how businesses can become stronger businesses with more profit by learning about gender bias and by overcoming these biases and implementing changes in the way they hire, the way they promote the cultures in their teams. And part of that education is to say like, the bias is harmful. It's, first of all, it's happening. And second of all, it's impacting everyone. So here's how bias impacts men. Here's how bias impacts women. And this is just a system that we have repeated and played out roles in for a very long time. And if we make some small changes, we can see big improvements.
Lia: So talk to me about those small changes. What does that look like?
Brenda: I would say in the workplace, two of the biggest biases that we deal with are performance bias and attribution bias. So performance bias means that people, let me, let me back up and say, Harvard has an implicit association test, which just means unconscious bias test. Okay. You can go online to, you can Google Harvard Implicit Association test, and you can go online and you can take a test. And what it does is it asks you a series of questions. It measures how quickly you answer and what you answer. Okay. And what it found is that 72% of respondents believe that, that men are more related with career, and women are more related with family. And all the respondents, 72% of women answered this way, and 72% of men answered this way. So let's be clear, we all have biases. Women have bias against women. Men have bias against women. And women and men also believe that men should behave in a certain way, right? So you go into, you go into a workplace and you look at, uh, performance bias. And what that is, is it says that we believe, men and women believe, assume, that men have skill, they're skilled, we assume they have the skill. We assume that women don't have the skill. And so you would see this in the trades as well. And so what ends up happening is, um, women who do have skill, they're kind of brushed aside because you assume that they don't, they're passed by for promotions. They're not looked at for giving them the same opportunity, the same opportunities, like the pro, same projects or the same clients, or the same, you know, customers. Because we assume that they're not as skilled as men. Now men, we assume that they have the skill. So regardless of their skill, we'll be like, yeah, yeah. Like, he's been in the job long enough, he's strong enough, he has the skill to complete this job. And so that's kind of like the first gap we see is where men are getting different opportunities than women. And women are getting passed by for opportunities because we believe, we assume that men have the skill, and we assume that women don't. Attribution bias is kind of the next one that comes into play. And we say when a man fails or when he doesn't succeed or reach his target or complete his project or whatever it may be, that it is due to external circumstances. So, um, the project was too big. He didn't have the right support. It wasn't set to succeed in the first place. The customer was challenging. And when he succeeds, we say it's because he's so skilled. Then you look at women and uh, when we see a woman fail, we say it's because of her. She didn't have the skill. We don't say it's because the customer was challenging or because she didn't have support. We say it's because she's not skilled. And then when she succeeds, we say, she had a really good team. The customer was really easy, she was well supported. And this is where inherent gender bias comes in as well. Because as a woman, you are, something ridiculous, like you place a 90% importance on your relationships and your culture and your work experience compared to men which place a 40% importance on it. So women are more, less likely to stay in a job where there's a shitty culture, whereas men endure that. Right. And so, um, women who are, who place a really strong importance on their work experience and their relationships, they succeed. And they say, someone says, Brenda, good job. You did a really good job on that project. And women say thank you. Uh, Lia helped me and I had this whole entire team and it was a really strong team, and we really worked together.
Lia: Oh, I see what you're saying.
Brenda: Right. And so we're, we are also spreading the credit. We do ourselves a disservice because we place so much importance on relationships.
Lia: You know, when you first said that, I was like, well, I don't think, uh, I'm, I was envisioning, you know, men that I've seen fail at a project or succeed and women vice versa. And I'm like, well, gee, I don't say, oh, well she, whatever. But when you said, when women say, you know, do well at something, and then they say, oh, thank you, but I had a great team. I was like, oh. So I don't interpret that as these people were supporting her. I don't interpret it that way. Maybe because of, because I'm a woman or because of how I think. I don't know. But I could see how other people would interpret that response as, oh, she didn't lead it, it was the support she had as though it takes a something away from what she put in. So when, when you said that, I could see how other people would look at it, look at those situations in those ways.
Brenda: Yeah. Women have a harder time receiving compliment.
Lia: Oh yeah. I can. Uh, yeah. That's bad. Yeah.
Brenda: Lia, when I started doing this work, if someone bought me a coffee, $3 right? I would be like, thank you so much, I'll get the next one. Like, don't worry about it. And then next time we went out, I'd be like, I got you. I got this coffee. Because I had such a hard time receiving, just receiving because I'm worth it. And because, you know, this person values me. And so I did work on receiving. And, and I also have a program that I work on with women where we go through things like negotiating. We go through, um, things like self-promotion. Self-promotion is another thing that we can talk about. Cuz I would love for, you know, all the women in the trades to be able to like, go and say what they excel at. Right? And just, and also like receiving, right? So when someone says, good job on that project, Lia, you can say, Thank you. I am so proud of the work that I did. Instead of, thank you, I had a really strong team and I had lots of support.
Lia: I would a hundred percent value my team, but I wouldn't look at that as me taking away from what I've done. I don't look at it like that. But I can understand now as an outsider hearing that, why it's being perceived that way or why it could be perceived that way.
Brenda: A man who's your boss or your coworker, he's not gonna be like, oh, Lia shared her success with the team. She's not actually the skilled one. This isn't conversations that they're having. This is how the bias works in our brain.
Lia: Yes. Yes.
Brenda: Is Lia able to, um, lead the next project? I don't know if she has the skill, even though you demonstrated it.
Lia: Right. That makes so much sense.
Brenda: So this is there, you've got the ext, the external patriarchy, the one that you see, and then the internalized one, right? Where you're like, I love my team and I wanna share the success. So I'm not saying you take all the credit and you don't share success, I'm saying you say, thank you, I'm really proud of the work that I did on that team. Or I'm really proud of the work that I did on that project. And then you find another way to congratulate your team and showcase them. Right. Be like, I just want you to know that like, Roger has been improving tons on his ability to connect, what whatever, you know, in your role. Like you can, you can pass on praise for your team and your coworkers without discrediting yourself in the process. And, and we do, we do work around that.
Lia: Those phrases to me is not discrediting yourself, it's being humble. In my opinion. It's so, it's almost like being humble hurts you in that structure.
Brenda: Yeah. And so this is an important distinction and I'm glad you brought that up, because they'll say I'm being humbled. They say like, when they watch a man take credit for work that he maybe didn't do himself, right, or promote his skills, they go, oh, that is so cringey. I'm not gonna be that proud. And that like, self-involved.
Lia: Arrogant.
Brenda: Arrogant, right.
Lia: Arrogant. Yes.
Brenda: But Lia's holding us back. And so you have to find an authentic way to promote your skills. You don't have to walk into the boardroom or the office and be like, yeah, I just like, finished this job. Or I did this thing because like I'm the best and I'm the best when there is. Cuz like we've seen guys that do that, right? They're like, oh, this person. Yeah.
Lia: Yeah. We make fun of those guys. Yeah, I know.
Brenda: But you can walk in like what I used to do, um, cause I'm a really high energy gal. How I would self-promote is I would go into my boss's office and I would be like, Hey, I just wanted to share a win with you. This happened today and I'm really proud of it because it's something that I was working towards. Right. So I shared it as like a suc, a personal success. We used to sit around in these team meetings. I was the only female in a technical role in a company of 900 people. And so we used to sit around in these meetings with these technical specialists and account managers and we would go around the room and we would talk about our successes. And I would see these guys saying, I just got this purchase order for this amount. I just got this purchase order for this amount. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, you actually didn't do any work on that. You didn't know that it was even in house until the person who was doing the work told you that. And it felt very inauthentic for me to share wins that weren't mine. So I would be like, my teammate pulled this in and it was really great and we worked together on, and I led them in, I guided them in this. Right. So I had like a different approach, a way to say what expertise I was bringing to the table without what I believe was presenting false information.
Lia: Mmm. Yes. Yes.
Brenda: Right. Because you need to find a way to self-promote that's authentic to you. You can't just share the love because you'll be looked over, you'll be passed over. Being proud of your, of your work and your accomplishments is not a bad word.
Lia: No, no. It's just as important if not more so.
Brenda: Yeah. We need to reframe it. We need to say thank you when we receive compliments and we need to start getting better at talking about what we're good at in a way that feels authentic to us.
Lia: I'm terrible at receiving compliments. I do the whole, No, no.
Brenda: I know. You know, like if someone is like, Hey Lia, I really like your sweater. And you're like, oh, this old thing. Right? You just like downplay it, like, just try being like, thank you. And you don't have to be like, I like your sweater too, Brenda. You can just be like, thank you. And that is the easiest way to start to train yourself to receive, is knowing that “thank you” is a full sentence.
Lia: Hmm.
Brenda: You don't have to downplay the compliment. You can just receive it. Right. And that is the easiest way. And then it makes receiving bigger compliments more comfortable.
Lia: So that's super interesting because when you talk about these biases, I'm like, oh yeah, of course I've got bias. But when I start to think about all the different biases, just like your sabertooth analogy, some are helpful and some are hurtful and, I always try to challenge myself whenever I'm in a situation to look at it from different perspectives in order to see things as clearly as I'm capable of.
Brenda: Mm-hmm.
Lia: And when we talk about gender, there are some gender roles that you talked about that I like. I wouldn't look down on someone or punish them for not exhibiting those roles if I didn't see it in them. But I would admire if I did see those traits.
Brenda: Mm-hmm.
Lia: A man that was a provider for his family, or being a financial, uh, provider, I would admire. I would think that's great. But I would just as, uh, easily admire a female who is doing the same thing. It, it, I wouldn't look down on her or look or look down at him. Like, let's say he was more nurturer, he was, uh, attending to the children. Maybe I wouldn't, uh, want a partnership like that. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't admire him for being the nurturer or the, the the family household leader, so to speak.
Brenda: Yeah. And, you know, a lot of that, so this is, this is a really big topic too. I'll try and scrape the surface for us. But when you have women that are providers that are out working, that are breadwinners, they also like, I I admire it. Right. I know that you admire it, but there are a lot of people who are like, why aren't you home with your kids? Her husband has a lower paying job and he doesn't work as hard and, you know, I could never do that. Or, you know, there's, um, there's a lot of things that like judgments that we face on the men's side. One thing that I had learned, I have a really great podcast episode with Veronica Illitch. She is the community manager for NextGen Men. Which is a nonprofit. Have you listened to that one?
Lia: Yes, I did. Yes I did.
Brenda: Yeah. And so I've, I've been attending events and, and circles whatnot that NextGen Men have been putting on. I've been learning a lot about the challenges that men face with our expectations of them. And I just wanna say that it's huge. So while you may not view a man who isn't providing for his family, or isn't the breadwinner, or doesn't like, necessarily display that trait, I guarantee you that that man is judging himself.
Lia: Oh, for sure.
Brenda: For that. Right. And, and…
Lia: Oh no, a hundred percent.
Brenda: Yeah. And a big part, what Veronica was teaching us about is that from a young age, boys place that expectation on each other and they learn to basically fear the response of other boys and men on how they're acting. And so I think that there's a lot of like shame and self-worth that comes into play for men who can't provide or, you know, whatever it is. It's, it's I'm sure a spectrum for each man based on his upbringing and what he's exposed to. But it does exist. And uh, I think that that, you know, plays a large part in why a lot of men are kind of more threatened in the workplace when other people are trying to rise or apply for the job, or someone super skilled comes in because they've always been sort of competing with each other. And, and this is like, uh, my own perception, right. Uh, like it's not, uh, rooted in the research, but I, I do know that men do struggle with, with the expectations that other men place on them.
Lia: Oh, I would agree with that big time, working with primarily men, um, it's huge. They can be so competitive to the point where it's detrimental to the team. And I find that unless the person, and in this case we're speaking about men, so unless the man is very well-rounded, very self-confident and uh, a good leader, they can be, uh, very damaging to the entire team with that insecurity of feeling pressured to compete where I'm, I'm not winning unless they're losing is the mentality.
Brenda: Yes. Yeah.
Lia: I'm a firm believer. I don't, I don't need you to lose, for me to win. I'm a big huge believer in that. I've seen it over and over again, and reading books that I read like Daniel Coyle, the Talent Code and, uh, you know, mindset by Carol Dweck and all that good stuff. I've seen how building a great team isn't about an imperial structure and isn't about being above, it's about rising others around you. That's, that's really what it is.
Brenda: A hundred percent. You just like nailed, hit the nail on the, the really big nail on the head. So in leadership, what we notice, what the research shows is that most men have a transactional style leadership and most women have a transformational style leadership. And you might have read about this in some of the books that you're sharing with us, but transactional style leadership is where you say, I'm the boss. This is your task. This is your by when date, and this is the expectation or the metric that you need to complete this task too. And everyone on the team gets tasks, and they are measured based on how close they get to hitting the mark. And when they miss the mark, they don't get, they don't get rewarded. And so, uh, transformational leadership style is where you say, okay, this team member is really strong in this aspect, so we're gonna leverage their skills to add that to the team. And this team member really wants to work on this skill set, so I'm gonna help them develop in this area and set goals around this area so that they can feel like they're a stronger contributing member of the team. And you still have like, the reward, but there's less need for like, punishment if you don't make the metric because it, everyone, what you're doing is you're creating a team that's intrinsically motivated. Right? And so the majority of women have a transformational leadership style, and the majority of men have a transactional leadership style. And the reason that they're studying this is because teams with a transformational leadership style are largely more effective. Right. And so what you're talking about, exactly as your transformational leadership style, but that can be hard in an environment where the leadership style has been the same for a very long time to come in and have a different leadership style. A lot of people will self abandon that innate intuition that tells them this is how we're gonna build a strong team. And they'll say, I have to give everyone tasks and I have to lead like a transactional leader. And men will look at women and they'll say, well, she's not leading like us. Right? And so it can be really challenging that, you know, that it's a more effective form of leadership, but that it's not necessarily viewed as leadership qualities. Even though you're build, building a really effective team. So there is a bit of a, a double bind there. And I don't mean to be like, super pessimistic. I hope you're not feeling pessimistic, but I'm just kind of like presenting some of the, some of the challenges. But I want everyone to know that the research shows that it's a highly effective form of leadership.
Lia: I think that's fantastic. And one of the things that I strive for in the Sparky Life community is changing the, uh, poor construction culture that we currently have, which is based off of an imperial structure, which is a patriarch-like structure, where I say jump, and you say how high. Yeah. Like that is, that is not going to build amazing teams. Now a lot of the tech companies have caught onto the science and psychology behind these types of management and leadership styles. The book I mentioned, the Talent code by Daniel Coyle discusses in depth the stats and the research done to support what you just said. Being so passionate about the trades, I, I say this often. I am very proud to be in the trades. I feel all of us tradies are the foundation of society. We are what makes it all work. We are civilization. And if we could get the construction culture to jump on board with this proven mindset of creating masterful teams, imagine where we could go. Imagine, especially you, you said it yourself, the majority of women tend to lean in this direction. The more females involved in the trades, the better. So, I know it's challenging. Change is always challenging, but if it's not a challenge, it's not fun.
Brenda: Yeah. Yeah. If it's not challenging, wouldn't it just be boring?
Lia: Exactly. Exactly.
Brenda: Yeah.
Lia: You work with a lot of companies in helping them break down gender bias and you also work with women directly in helping them. What's the correct verbage here? Helping them to step into leadership roles, assert themselves, find the way that that's authentically…
Brenda: It's different for every woman. Honestly, um, I kind of, I call it, I call it career transformation coaching.
Lia: Okay. Okay.
Brenda:Because a lot of times women don't know which aspect is kind of holding them back. Um, and they don't know, a lot of times it seems like it's an external, an external factor that's holding them back and they maybe can't identify what the external factor is. But a lot of times there's internal factors. So one of the biggest things that I would say I've worked on with all my clients is setting boundaries. Right. Because it's, it's not something that we are trained to, to have.
Lia: Nope.
Brenda: And it can be the single most powerful tool in whatever it is. Whether that is, um, creating a more livable work environment or getting a promotion. Because let's be clear, if you're not being heard, you're not being seen. And if you're not being seen, you're not getting promoted. And so boundaries is a really big one.
Lia: A perfect example is of what you just said, when you're like, oh, women will respond when they have a win. That I had the, you know, support of my team and that was so great. And I'm thinking to myself, what is she talking about? That's wonderful. I don't see how that's bad. But then as soon as you like rolls reverse, I'm like, oh, they're interpreting that language as though she's somehow not involved in creating that win, or that she wasn't the lead in which that team was able to create that way. So you, you, you just, the examples right there, I would've, I would never have seen it in that way if you didn't address it in that way.
Brenda: Yeah. And oftentimes that's all it is, is a perception shift. Right. And nobody's gonna be like, like when they're like, oh, Lia, you did a good job. And you're like, thank you so much. I'm really proud of the work that I did on that project. No one's gonna be like, Ugh, Lia is so arrogant. Yeah,
Lia: No. Right. Of course we're not.
Brenda: But we're like expecting this big negative response to us receiving a compliment.
Lia: I've always struggled with compliments, but I think that either it's a part of my personality or my environment or how I grew up, however you wanna flavor it. I love supporting others. I get jazzed, I get juiced by it. I love serving others. And so I feel good highlighting other people's win or contribution. So to me, I'm not taking anything away from what I did. I'm badass. I I made that sparkle spark, you know. But, but, but because I get such internal pleasure from identifying the wins in the group, I wouldn't think twice of how that could be reflecting that I'm not I, but why aren't you identifying self? Or why aren't you putting self first? And how that can be looked at as, oh well she didn't just say, you know, thank you. I'm very proud of my accomplishment. She immediately talked about her teammates and their contributions and therefore somehow she didn't contribute or she wasn't the leading force because of that.
Brenda: She only took a quarter of the credit cuz she worked on a team of four.
Lia: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Well, I enjoy it. And I think it's a good attribute to have.
Brenda: A hundred percent.
Lia: I wonder why not condition the boys to do that.
Brenda: Yes. Yes. I wonder the same thing Lia.
Lia: Why don't we all be conditioned to support one another.
Brenda: Hundred percent. And it is not bad to promote the skills of other people. It's not bad to uplift them. We just need, I still want you to do that. Right. I still want you to do that because it's, it's the, people love working for a leader, working with a leader who shouts their name in a room full of opportunities.
Lia: Oh, a hundred percent. Yes.
Brenda: So you, we still want you to support your team. We still want you to uplift your peers. We still want you to share their successes and wins. And it, everybody needs an advocate. So Lia, somebody probably advocated for you and said, Lia's doing a really good job. Lia's really excellent at this. Right. So we all need that. We just need to be cognizant that when someone says, Lia, good job. We're not giving it a hundred percent to other people. Right. So I still want you to support your peers and your teammates. We just need to find a different way to do it that kind of separates it so that you're not getting passed by for a promotion or you're not being viewed as a non contributor. Right.
Lia: Oh yes, definitely. I love that. I absolutely love that. There's so much inspiration and empowerment that comes with language. It's so amazing how the way you some say something and, and the words you use, what you choose to say can make or break in a certain situation of getting your communication or, or your message across.
Brenda: Yeah. And a big part of that is having a calm regulated nervous system when you're doing it. Right. Because sometimes it doesn't always feel comfortable to ask somebody to stop interrupting you. Sometimes it always doesn't feel comfortable to bring up a challenge that you're having on a team. And because we are trained as women to be pleasant and not make waves, it's extra challenging for us. We don't get the same practice.
Lia: I can definitely agree with that. When I was younger, I had a really hard time being confrontational or creating boundaries. Uh, not so much anymore.
Brenda: Yes, girl!
Lia: But I, I do still struggle in some areas. Like what you just said really impacted me. I, I gotta say that was beautiful about, I always will support the crew and talk about the crew and neglect to talk about my personal win or my personal, um, achievement towards that goal. And that's something that I never saw or looked at before.
Brenda: Yeah.
Lia: That's so important. That's really so important. And then I think, wow, there are so many women in the trades that should be in leadership positions that aren't in leadership positions. They would value so much from this.
Brenda: Yeah. So Lia, let's take an example here. Cuz I love this. I love, I love this and I love that you love this. So, let's say you say, Hey Brenda, uh, I really loved your podcast.
Lia: Hey Brenda, I really love your podcast.
Brenda: Oh, you know, it's, it's fine. Um, there's, you know, I I had a really good coach that helped me and I've got someone who's like producing the audio. That's not true, by the way, but I've got, I've got someone who's producing the audio. And so like, um, it, you know, it it's not really like there's a lot of moving pieces involved in, in the podcast and it's fine. Right? Like it's, you're kind of like, you would kind of be like, oh, like Brenda is not the owner of the podcast. She doesn't have agency over like, how good it, it turns out. Right? So you might be like, well, who's your, who's your audio editor, right?
Lia: Or who's your team, or who then are you working with?
Brenda: Yeah. And it's like, it's like, okay, so what if you were like, Brenda, I really love your podcast. And I said, thank you so much Lia. This is a passion project of mine. I've been working in the field of gender bias for the last two years, but really for the last 20 years mm-hmm. And I think that I am passionate about bringing the subject to everyone and making the conversation a super approachable one. I want everyone to learn what I've learned.
Lia: Well, you've definitely educated me and showed me how this information been be, can be taken, uh, especially in a, in a, for a female who who works pri primarily with men who is a leader and wants to be seen as a leader. I wanna know for the men, where's the advantage? How can they utilize this information to get as much out of it?
Brenda: So a lot of companies, like when I'm speaking with human resources departments at companies, I'm talking to them about the benefit of creating gender equity in their workplace and how on average it has a 10% increase in margin. Gets me in the door. Right, right. And then it gets people listening.
Lia: But I think that if you talked about how you gave a great example about how so much pressure on men to be in that box, that provider that, and I'm doing air quotes provider, that financial breadwinner and to be strong and not show emotion and how detrimental that is for any human. You know, having that bias and that pressure can't be a good thing for guys. And if they were to learn about how they could communicate how they're feeling, or that they are in, not only should they be communicating about how they feel, but they're entitled as a human being to communicate how they feel. That could potentially really elevate them.
Brenda: I had, uh, an instance when I was working as a cabinet maker, we were doing some custom millwork installation at, like an Italian cultural center. And we had, I think like the, some hardware that we had for door hinges wasn't the right size. And so there was gonna be like a delay in the project completion. And my team lead and the site supervisor who's not, didn't work for us. Right. He was kind of collaborating all the trades. Um, hi. These two guys were like fighting about it and they're like throwing their tools. And they're like, my boss was says to the guy, he's like, wow, that's awesome. You should be an inspirational speaker. And I'm like, oh my god, this is, this is like escalating very quickly. Right. So I like walked up to them, I politely interrupted and I said, I can just drive down to the hardware store and get a new set. Like I called while you guys were talking and they have two available and I can just go right now and we can keep everything on track. And they were like, okay, yeah. Okay, like they were just like…
Lia: I'm gonna drop the nuke, I'm gonna drop the nuke!
Brenda: Yeah. And, and so to me, so then, you know, like here, one of my superpowers is my problem solving capabilities. Right. My ability to like, get out of a jam or like creatively think. And so here I am creatively thinking and then I communicate this. And then I would say after that experience, my boss was like, Hey Brenda, we are running into this challenge. What do you think? I felt like being able to like calmly talk about it kind of opened up that new style of communication. Our shop was very small by the way, but I do think that it makes an impact, right? Having, having a different communication style, more, um, non-violent communication. Like it, it's, uh, it feels good. So it catches on.
Lia: Yes. Yes. That's fantastic. Brenda, you bring so much to the table. All for men. Thank you. And women, I think it's so important what you're doing. Can you let all of the listeners know where they can find you?
Brenda: Yes, for sure. Well, my webpage is under construction, but very shortly, you can find me at bustinggenderbias.com. My Instagram is where I kinda am most active on social media and it's @busting_gender_bias, but it's busting underscore gender underscore bias. And um, my podcast is also called Busting Gender Bias. And you can find it on pretty much any platform.
Lia: Yes, yes. Absolutely. I love to ask all of my guests being in construction and being my quirky self. I can't help it. I like to ask the analogy, what's in your tool belt? What's something that you take with you every day that have helped you achieve your goals?
Brenda: Ooh, this is such a good question. I would say curiosity.
Lia: I love that.
Brenda: Yeah. I say the mind is like a Birkenstock, right? You walk in the Birkenstock every day and the grooves form that Birkenstock is grooved to your feet, right? When you wanna do something differently, oftentimes it can be challenging. It's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to walk in someone else's Birkenstock. It's uncomfortable to walk in a new Birkenstock, right? Cause the grooves aren't there. And so oftentimes when I see someone reacting or responding or acting in a certain way, my curiosity says, that's so interesting. Why would they react that way? Why do they feel that way? Why do they behave that way? Where did they get their confidence from? And that has been the biggest catalyst to help me learn and grow and have, um, an understanding of where other people are coming from. And I think curiosity has been the, the best tool in my tool belt.
Lia: That's fucking fantastic.I love it. I love it. I'm like, I got goosey bumps. All right, Brenda, thank you so much. It was a pleasure as usual.
Brenda: It was a great pleasure to have this conversation. And I just wanna say thank you so much for having me on, and I love what you're doing with the trades, Lia. Like the work I loved, the work I grew up in, in a blue collar family. I understand the value that the trades bring to the world, and it is so important. So thank you for what you're doing.
Lia: Ah, thank you. Yeah, thank you.
Brenda: Yeah, I had so much fun.
Lia: Good, good. That's the biggest thing. I wanna have fun. There is so much that Brenda shared which resonated with me. But what I wanna focus on is the practice of valuing ourselves. The work we do is so important. And if we don't give ourselves credit, who will? I love what she said about applying simple strategies to our lives, such as receiving coffee and compliments, and simply saying thank you without the urge to compliment the other person back, and without attributing our qualities or success to others instead of solely ourselves. The best part about what Brenda mentioned regarding taking ownership of our value is that we can empower others to do the same by virtue of valuing ourselves, and thus continue to improve and develop the teamwork dynamic to the trade world. The next time someone gives you a compliment, what will you say? Thank you for joining us. If you felt a spark in today's episode, I invite you to write a review. I'd love to hear what lit you up. Take what resonates with you, and if you'd like to hear more of the Sparky Life, please subscribe, like, follow, and share. Until next time, create the sparks in your life.