Lia: You're listening to the Sparky Life podcast; with your host, Lia Lamela. Here we discuss women in the trades and how to construct your career.
I have a very special guest with us today, a true visionary, a woman who paved the way for others. An electrician for 40 years now retired. However, she has yet to retire her tools. Allow me to introduce, Carmyn Stanko. Thank you so much for being here, Carmyn.
Carmyn: Oh, you're welcome.
Lia: I wanted to ask you, what got you interested in the electrical field in the first place?
Carmyn: Well, my dad was a carpenter by trade. And so I had been around trades people when I was younger. But I was a school teacher and I painted houses in the summertime. And we went on strike at the school that I was working at. I left teaching and went into the trades, basically, as a laborer. I started looking around and seeing the different trades, and you know, the electrical trade just jumped out at me. And I said, you know, this is a trade that I can do. It looks really interesting and challenging. And that's really how I got into the trade.
Lia: And when you were getting involved in the trades, did they have apprenticeship programs?
Carmyn: Yes, they did. I was, I was fortunate enough to know how to get a job in some ways, because I did use the affirmative action program. I knew that if you had any federal contracts that you had to have a certain percentage of women on the job site. Now, Burlington, Vermont is a pretty small place. So when you think of an electrical contractor at that time, you're thinking of, you know, maybe a contractor that has 15 to 20 people as being a very large contractor.
Lia: Wow.
Carmyn: So there were two companies in the Burlington area that were doing federal jobs. And so I went knocking on their door and said I was really interested in doing an apprenticeship. And both of them were willing to hire me.
Lia: Wonderful.
Carmyn: And so I, I worked for a couple of years, just as again, as a laborer doing deliveries and working in the warehouse. And then I was signed up for the apprenticeship program. The state of Vermont has basically two programs. They run parallel. One of them is the union apprenticeship program, which is with the IBEW, and then the state has a program, they both, the same requirements as far as a 1000 hours and four years of school. And then you can take your journey license test. The union goes another year, but they do the same thing after your fourth year, you can take your journey license test, you know, they've been running this apprenticeship program, probably since the 60s.
Lia: Wow.
Carmyn: Even before me, they were as apprenticeship program.
Lia: That's so cool. That's so cool.
Carmyn: Yeah.
Lia: Did you get a lot of kickback? Like, where was your crew welcoming? Let's put it that way.
Carmyn: Well, you know, I worked in the warehouse. So I didn't have that much exposure at first to the workers on the job site. But I did work, you know, directly for the bosses who owned the company. And I have to say that they were pretty welcoming to me.
Lia: Yes. That's awesome.
Carmyn: Yeah, yeah, they didn't, you know, they didn't give me a hard time. They were pretty polite to me. I mean, I was kind of the, you know, anomaly for them. So at first, everybody was kind of tiptoeing around, and then they realized, oh, well, you know, I'm really just a worker like everybody else. And that's the most important thing. And if I can do the job, then, you know, I'll stay; if I can't do the job done, obviously, I would be fired. So, you know, that was the bottom line for them was whether I was going to be productive or not.
Lia: Right, right. And when you were working at the University of Vermont, around 1997, you made a big decision, which changed your life, and the non administrative workers lives for the better. Can you tell us what happened?
Carmyn: I started at the University of Vermont in 1985, and we were not a unionized public sector university. And actually, that was pretty uncommon to have a university that would have had been unionized at that point. But we decided in 1997, to start to look about unionizing. And a lot of the reasons for that are the typical reasons of low wages, benefits, working conditions, safety issues. But also the university changed in terms of the model that it was. So universities used to have precedents that were part of the faculty, they came from an academic setting, and so it was all academic. But now universities were changing into businesses, just like any other organization, with a CEO more than likely than somebody who had actually been in the academic field. So that meant that the culture changed. Big time really, you know, in a short period of time, and we, we said, “Listen”, you know, “we've got to do something about this”. And really, the best thing to do is try to unionize. And so that's we, that's the process that we started, we reached out to, there were two different models, actually. One was the IBEW, and they have a very business model, which is, you know, top down type of model they do. And it's a, it's a obviously, it's a huge union, I mean, you know, the IBEW is all over the country. And, you know, I, and so it's run in a very, very different way. So we had presentation done by them. And then we had another smaller union that was around in the area that we invited, and that was UE, which is the United Electrical Radio Machine Workers of America. It's a mouthful, but
Really, we go by UE, and they're very different model, because they are, well, the union’s run by the workers. And what I mean by that is that it's not a top down model. So each person in the union has a voice. And it's structured in, in a way so that each person can have a voice. So it's not set up where your, you know, your top officials are the ones making the decisions for you. You're making your own decisions.
Lia: When you talk about the UE, that's what you guys go by when you talk about you, Ue, and I was first learning about unions, that's what I imagined a union to be. That's what I understood. And then, as I moved through joining a union and started to explore what was out there, I realized that there are different kinds of unions. And there's pro and con to each but my, my heart goes out when you talk about the UE model, because I am passionate about that. And I feel a connection there. I resonate with that.
Carmyn: Right, I think that's within business unions, there certainly are small, I guess cadre would be a good word, but small cadre of worker organizations within it, but you still have somebody else that's really running the union for you. And I have to admit that there are days that that's very welcoming, you know, I'm gonna be honest, and say, you know, there be days where I go, I just wish somebody else was, you know, doing this and doing this for me, etc. But in the end, you have a much stronger union and the members have a real ownership in the union.
Lia: Yes, a real voice.
Carmyn: A real voice, and the ship goes down with them or advances with them, you know, not that people don't get help. But you know, it really is up to the local unions, how successful they are. And the more participation by the individuals, obviously, the more likely they are to be successful.
Lia: Yes, definitely. And I remember you talking about your vote, when it came down to the vote.
Carmyn: Yeah, that was, the university didn't really, they really felt that there, we had no chance of organizing and winning. And so the night of the vote, they actually had a person from human resources, but they were really kind of the lowest person in the office, right?
Lia: Underestimated, guys!
Carmyn: Yeah, absolutely. And we won by two votes.
Lia: Amazing. Absolutely amazing.
Carmyn: Yeah, we were ecstatic. I mean, it really changed how we were going to be part of the university structure from then on. And so it was a big deal. And it was a lot of work. And I have to give kudos to two parts of the organization, and that was the electricians who definitely spent a lot of time and energy talking to other folks working with different individuals about the importance of a union, and also the custodial staff, because they really saw how important it was to be to be organized and have somebody helped them represent them. Because they were the, you know, least powerful organization on campus. And 60% of our folks, English isn't their first language. So that made it even more difficult. And unfortunately, they were not treated well. And so they understood the importance of that.
Lia: The importance of the change, something needed to change.
Carmyn: Yes, yeah.
Lia: Now, did you want a leadership role when you became unionized?
Carmyn: Well, I didn't want a leadership role at that point, I wanted to take a little bit of a timeout, you know, and I wanted other people to step up and do that, again, it's easy when you're kind of the person that's out front, just want to say, Okay, I'll just, you know, run for being president or whatever. But you really need to have a group of people. And so, I stepped back and, you know, I just, I was a regular member and not an officer, when we first started.
Lia: Now, you told me previously, that they were a little sneaky sneak. They weren't very nice. They tried to make things difficult for you, the school.
Carmyn: Yeah, they, what they tried to do is, they tried to make it so that I couldn't be part of the bargaining unit.
Lia: Ah…sneaky, sneaky.
Carmyn: Yeah. I mean, you know, listen, you know, the reality is that when you union organize, and the people who are out front, there could be ramifications, you know that when you start doing that, you hope that there will be but that's, that's, again, the the reality of of doing that type of work.
Lia: That's why you're so brave. I mean, you knew there could be ramifications, and you still moved forward.
Carmyn: Right. Right. So what happened was that the Labor Relations Board you, you can challenge different positions when when this happens when you first, you first win an election, you can challenge certain positions to be in the bargaining unit or not be in the bargaining unit. And so then you can go down to the Labor Relations Board, and challenge that. Now, Vermont being a very small state, when I say go to the Labor Relations Board, at the state capitol, we're talking about a half hour drive. So it's, it's a little bit easier to do some things. So we held the hearing, and they decided that I was definitely in the bargaining unit. I worked the 40 hours, I was an electrician. That's where we're connected. And so I ended up being in the bargaining unit. I felt great about that. I mean, I felt like it was a good win. And it was a fair win. And that, you know, the Labor Relations Board understood what the, you know, the university was, was really trying to do.
Lia: Yes, yes, yes. And then when did you step into the role of a leader?
Carmyn: Well, I stepped into the role of leadership, let's see, we organized in 99, was when we had our first contract and so around 2003, 2004, I stepped in and ran for president. And so I was president for 11 years.
Lia: Amazing. That's so cool.
Carmyn: Yeah, it, for me, I mean, I left my electrical career, but for me, being part of the union was really what I loved the most.
Lia: Special.
Carmyn: Yeah, it's special. It's not easy. I will tell you that it's, it is not an easy thing to do, but it is so rewarding, then especially when you can help people that are being accused of things that are not fair or not true or that are just outright lies.
Lia: Yes.
Carmyn: And unfortunately, that happens a lot.
Lia: What were some of the challenges you experienced working with management?
Carmyn: Well, the typical mentality when anybody organized this right, is that it's got to be this antagonistic relationship, right? There's just no other model that that could be possible, you know, my feeling was that it doesn't have to be antagonistic relationship if you don't want it to be.
Lia: 100%.
Carmyn: Right. But both parties have to come to the table with that same mentality.
Lia: Yes.
Carmyn: And the unfortunate part is that, you know, the university was upset, the university was angry, the university was the university. And so they didn't come to the table in that type of mode. Now, there might have been a few individuals that did, but on the whole, they set up a management structure that dealt with the union directly. And it was not, you know, the group that I had to deal with, really bought the Kool Aid of what the university was buying. And, you know, and that was to try to keep the workers in their place, minimize benefits, minimize raises, not be committed to safety on the job site. And they bought into that. So the way that they made things difficult is by control. And so there was always something that was being added to try to add control to the environment, right. Our immediate managers no longer had any power. So they had to go and you know, if a person wanted to take two weeks vacation, they'd have to go and ask somebody else if it was okay for that person to do that. Once you have that kind of thing happening, then really, you don't have any say over the folks that work with you directly.
Lia: Yeah, they would make you jump through hoops, make it difficult.
Carmyn: Yes, very difficult. And 90% of the time, we would win. My feeling was that, the majority of that time, we wouldn't have needed to spend, you know, with that type of energy and having different opinions about it, it just seemed foolish, so much of the time, but that's what you have to do. And we were good at it.
Lia: That's awesome. That's awesome.
Carmyn: Yeah.
Lia: What are you most proud of?
Carmyn: I think the thing that I'm most proud of is that I was good at doing grievances. I was good at strategizing. And so that was what I was most proud of when I would go in with folks, is that I felt like I was prepared and that even if we weren't successful, that I had done the best that I could. And I was very proud of the fact that we had become a very good local. And that was important to me. And I knew that when I stepped down, that I wanted to make sure that the time that I had spent, I had worked with folks who were willing to step up and take my place.
Lia: Yes, yes. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Now, it really is women like you that have paved the way for women like me; if it wasn't for you, I would not have the opportunities that I have as an electrician today. But I don't understand why there aren't more women in the trades. And I wanted to ask you, why do you think that is?
Carmyn: I think it starts in the schools. So I mean, I think that it starts in the grade schools, I think that it starts, you know, when when kids are 5, 6, 7 years old, they have you know, folks come into the school, I mean, women come into the school, and talk about what they're doing. And you know, I can remember one time going in, it was actually a daycare at the university and they kept watching what I was doing. And so I went in one day, and I just put my tool bag out there and I mean, obviously we the kids were supervised but they could handle the tools, you know, they could touch them and you know, so you know, they'd see me using the tools and they were fascinated by that. They would just stand there and kind of watch, and that's where you start. The biggest problem we have is we're still centered on this model of that, you're not successful if you don't go to college.
Lia: Yes, yes. In my high school, that's what was pushed. I didn't even know, this was an option as a career for me. And if I would have known back then, I would not have gone to college, I would have immediately gone into the trades. So I agree with you, 100%. The schools are like a business, and they just push college.
Carmyn: Right, and they get money for that.
Lia: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Carmyn: Every student that they get to go to college, there's a financial reward for that; the financial rewards of having students that go into the trades, isn't there. And that's a big problem. But the, but the other piece of it is that you still have a mentality out there that, oh, if you go into the trades, that means that you were a failure in school.
Lia: Which is so untrue.
Carmyn: Which, you know, is absolutely, it's the worst thinking that you can use as a model of saying, “oh, this person is second rate, because they're in the trades”, when the reality is that in the electrical trade, certainly your reading skills, and your math skills, and your computer skills have to be better than what the majority of people who are going to college would be. And now especially with everything being electronic, and computerized, it's even more important.
Lia: Yes.
Carmyn: So I think that the more exposure and the more education that parents can be exposed to have nights where you know, parents can come and actually understand what these programs are about, I think would really help.
Lia: I agree with you. I agree. For women who are aspiring to get into the electrical trade, what advice would you give them?
Carmyn: Here's a quote that I have. “If you've used in a vacuum cleaner, you've used a power tool.”
Lia: Okay, I love it.
Carmyn: And, you know, it's a, it's a funny quote, but I think one of the things that women do is that they minimize their talents.
Lia: Yes.
Carmyn: They minimize, when it comes time to fill out an application or whatever, they minimize their work experience, and think that oh, because I haven't done this, that somehow I can't do the trade.
Lia: Right.
Carmyn: But when I say that, if you've used a vacuum cleaner, you've you've used a power tool you really have.
Lia: Yes, yes.
Carmyn: If you could get into the mentality of saying, Okay, I've helped. I mean, I can remember a woman who applied who had helped her husband build their home.
Lia: Wow.
Carmyn: Right? And yet, they didn't want to hire her because they didn't feel like she had enough experience. And they wanted to hire this other guy, right? Well, you know, she didn't have traditional experience. But she had experience. And that was, that was one of the things of trying to get across to people is that you have to look at the whole picture. So for women, I worked a lot with resumes with women, you have to look at every piece of the work that you've done as being experience. It may not be traditional experience, but it's experience, and don't minimize that, because guys will absolutely exaggerate their experience.
Lia: 100%, 100%!
Carmyn: You know, they'll work and change spark plugs on the car, and they think they’re mechanics, you know, I mean, they'll paint a window, and they'll think that they're a painter, so they do just the opposite. And in the end, that doesn't mean that they have any more talent, or they should be given any more advantage than you. It's understanding how important what you've learned is to being able to go into the field. The second thing is, have fun.
Lia: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.
Carmyn: You can learn a lot. You can go in so many different directions being in the trades, it doesn't mean that you have to stay as an electrician, you can go into intrusion alarm work, you can go into fire alarm work, go into building automation. There's a lot of different layers of that but get your license and that got a lot of choices.
Lia: Yes, yes. I want to ask you, with all of your life experience with everything that you've come across: what's in your tool belt? What's something you always carry with you, something that you think about, that you wake up every morning and it's with you, you tackle the day with?
Carmyn: I try every day to think about, okay, how can I take care of myself today, so that I can be a good neighbor, I can be a productive person, I can be a good friend. So I think that's kind of the way that I try to look at each day. When I was working as an electrician, I had a choice of what kind of day I could choose, and life is like that.
Lia: Yes, yes. Yes. That's so powerful. That's so powerful.
Carmyn: I clearly knew when I started in the trades, one of my goals were obviously was to have more women in the trades. But I felt like if I could do that, if I could just get one more woman in the trades. I would feel like I had been successful in my trade. Because the company that I was working for was willing to hire another woman. I knew that going in. I knew that, that was really a goal of mine. I didn't want to just be the “token woman”, who then, they never hired another woman again. I wanted to be able to be successful, so that they would go, “this person has been successful. Maybe we're willing to hire another woman”.
Lia: Yeah. Wow. I can't tell, you I've spoken to hundreds of women. And every woman, you hit the nail on the head, by the way, they underestimate themselves. You know, I didn't know how to use a power tool. And I just, was terrified. But I did it. I figured it out, like you said, if you used a vacuum, you can use a power tool. And right, you're 100% right. They, we are underestimate ourselves. And then the women that actually move forward and become a journey woman, they say it's life changing. They say they, they think they can do anything. They're empowered. It's, it's incredible.
Carmyn: Oh, it's an it's incredible when the day that they hand you your license. I've now had my license since 1984. And I will, as long as I can mentally take the tests, and do the continuing education, I will continue to have my license. That's what's the most important piece of paper that I got. My college degree is a college degree. But you know, my journey licenses, was yes, what opened the doors for me to go in in other directions.
Lia: That's beautiful. That's absolutely beautiful. All right. Carmyn, thank you so much for being here with us. I appreciate it so much. It's absolutely wonderful speaking with you.
Carmyn: It's wonderful to meet you. And I wish you the best on your journey.
Lia: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Carmyn: You're welcome.
Lia: It's an honor to have spoken with Carmyn, a trailblazer, who started her electrical career in 1984. Carmyn provided us with a window into the efforts of a union organizer. When she mentioned having a choice about what kind of day she's going to have, and that life is like that; wow. Just incredible. This mindset creates the kind of life you want to live. I make choices about the life I want to build. What are you building?
Thank you for joining us. If you felt a spark in today's episode, I invite you to write a review. I'd love to hear what lit you up. Take what resonates with you. And if you'd like to hear more of the Sparky life, please subscribe, like, follow and share. Until next time, create the sparks in your life.