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You can find 312 Weed Ale, Big Juicy Beer Hug, and so many other limited releases at either of Goose's locations in Chicago. Goose Island Beer Company, Chicago's Beer. You're listening to Sound Opinions. I'm Greg Cott with Jim DeRigatis. We are here with Peter Ames Carlin, the author of The Name of This Band is R.E.M.
As soon as we saw the title of this book, Peter, we go, okay, we're in. This is one of those lifetime bands for both of us. We're holding you to the standard of let's hope somebody can tell their story. Yeah. Let's nail it down. You've done it with Brian Wilson and with Paul Simon and, I don't know, that guy from New Jersey. Right. I heard about that guy. Springsteen, yeah. Yes, Bruce Springsteen. So, Peter, you're a prolific biographer.
And you could have picked anybody to do your next book with. Why REM? Why did you focus on doing a major bio on this band? Whenever I set out to write a book or think about setting out to write a book, there's this calculus that I do that just involves like... Do I have feelings, like strong feelings about this artist? Do I like their music enough that I would be happy to sit and listen to it for two to three years, you know, on the regular?
as I think about it. And then also, like, what does the literature include? Like, what's out there on them? And what was interesting to me about REM was the fact that there didn't seem to be like a real...
a book that I felt told their story in the way that I thought it should be told. For me, the writing that existed didn't... delve into what I thought is one of the most important parts of their story, which is the role of Southern culture and the kind of dual legacy, you know, as our friends in the drive-by truckers say, the duality of the Southern thing. hand you have the horror of slavery and the ongoing toll of that kind of racism.
But on the other hand, you have this really quirky, strange, eccentric sort of arty culture. which was in large part where they came out of in Athens, Georgia. Yeah, well, dead center in Athens, surrounded by University of Georgia, is the cannon that always points north. Yeah, don't get any ideas. Yeah, exactly. For all that are the arty friends from Athens and the UGA, we're very evolved and progressive people.
I think that when you grow up there, there is a lot of that that just becomes part of the backdrop. And you forget exactly what it symbolizes. And I think now society is catching up to that a little bit. But not without a fight. I mean, look where we are. I've got my... When I think of REM, and Jim and I both interviewed them numerous times when we were working at the Sun-Times and the Tribune, respectively, they're great at talking about the music.
And we're very willing to talk about them as a band, as an artistic project. But essentially unknowable in terms of their personal lives. They're like considered superstars. But most of our superstars, especially now with the celebrity culture we live in, their private lives are almost on constant display. And these guys were very reticent in terms of revealing much about themselves as people.
Which is why I was fascinated about the early part of your book, because you sort of get at some of these ideas of who they were before they became famous. And I don't think they could have flourished the way they had been if they had not had Athens. as sort of a backdrop for what they were doing.
The other thing that I think makes a difference with them, I mean, as a writer, as a biographer, it's a little frustrating because they weren't then, and nor are they now, excited to talk about their personal lives. So when you're writing about famous people, that's unexpected.
also inconvenient because it's nice when people kind of help you connect the dots a little bit and tell you a little bit about but you know the water they were swimming in before they got to this particular moment in their lives but on the other hand people not telling strangers about their personal lives and their relationships with their mommies and daddies is actually like...
what the rest of us call emotionally mature. It's like, you just don't do that, right? And, you know, these guys, you know, all four members, I mean, I think Peter Buck's family was a little more, it seems like, you know, that was a little... more shadowy there you know there I think there were more painful things that happened in his relationship with his parents than any of the other guys you know Michael
Peter and Bill all had very, very close and loving relationships with their parents who were all very supportive of them. And I think that that gave them a foundation upon which they could build healthy relationships. not only with one another, but with their relationship to their growing fame. The other thing, I was talking to someone the other day who was saying, well, what was the difference between their breaking through or their relationship to fame versus...
Kurt Cobain and Nirvana and it was like REM had the good fortune to not be overnight successes. They didn't just go from zero to extremely globally famous. They put in 10 years of hard labor before they got there, which is rough and, you know, it's dues-paying and all that and not every, you know, and sometimes it's not.
fun but on the other hand it gives you a chance to sort of slowly acclimate and get to a place where by the time the whole world is paying attention to you you have some maturity you have some experience with this you understand where the boundaries are and what's happening around you as opposed to just suddenly getting hurled into the spotlight. And I think that that stood them in good stead. Peter, at what point did you come on as a fan? Can you talk about the first time you saw or heard them?
Sure. Well, I was very aware of them in the early 80s because I was a music guy and a music magazine reader. So I was aware that there was this band, but I grew up in Seattle and went to school in Portland in the early 80s. And so... There wasn't that kind of left of the dial scene. And unfortunately, I didn't hang out with super cool people because I wasn't, nor am I now, super cool myself. So it took me a while. And so it really wasn't until...
They began to get played on the radio that I had any, you know, I'm sure I saw their early videos on MTV. But, you know, as I write in the book. their videos didn't get played on MTV a lot because they kind of purposely set out to make videos that MTV wouldn't play, even though they really wanted them to play them too. There's that paradoxical thing. I didn't really tune in until they...
they really hit the radio. So I'm sure by like... pageant and document you know some of those songs were coming out um but it really in terms of my really internalizing their sound it really wasn't until the one i love that came out To occupy my time This one goes out too it was like you know and there was this slow sort of like comprehension of what was happening and and with these guys and then I began to you know once
Once you hear that guitar sound and you're a rock and roll fan, it's hard not to be all in. And there I was. I don't want to pick nits, although that's what I'm going to do. Please, go for it. Jim, you alone among reporters who I'm talking to should be picking nits with this one. We will get to pages 345 and 6, yes. I was sitting here going, I hope he hasn't finished the book. I hope he hasn't finished the book.
Some radio people you'll talk to, we actually read the books. No, you know, you refer to those early fans, I guess like me and Greg, as murmurers, you know, and you say, you know, mostly... Guys right skinny guys, which I've never been Wow, I couldn't disagree more, you know the community that fostered
adopted and launched this band. There were so many women, radio program directors. I counted up in my recollection the number of girls who were friends that I went to ARIA and road tripped, you know. from Hoboken and New York to Boston and Connecticut. We saw them everywhere they would play up and down the East Coast. And there were like more than two dozen women program directors, fanzine editors, writers at college.
board programming people who would get money and book them. And if they couldn't get them, they'd throw it to the DBs. I was surrounded by women. And you paint it as kind of a geeky... you know, indie guy thing. It wasn't. And also, I felt like some of the clubs were slighted, you know, like what Maxwell's and Steve Fallon did to launch them and introduce them to people that become key, like Julie Pan.
Bianco or the folks who booked them on Letterman, you know. You know, there were always like three dozen of us. And 24 of them were women. I understand. Now, what I said, maybe I might have written it more precisely, I'm not sure at this point, but... When I was talking about the indie dudes, I'm talking about, like, what you see and hear, like, in the fan world. The people, it's like, you know, I mean, honest to God, guys, I mean, when somebody posts something like...
these are the 10 greatest guitar solos or the 10 best. It's like, that's a guy thing. You know, I mean, at least largely, not entirely, obviously you can't paint with that broader brush. But what I was talking about when I talked about the gut, like the, sort of maleness the indie maleness was largely had to do a with the stuff that I was seeing and the things that I've been seeing for decades you know written by
you know, REM fans, you know, serious REM fans, the murmurer types, as I lovingly call them. But also, you know, I mean, just talking to people who had been part of that scene, you know, playing music, it was... immensely white, male, cisgender, you know, hetero scene, the indie rock scene.
And I think a lot of people, I mean, Victor Krumenacher from Camper, Van Beethoven, was out and proud as an indie guy in the mid-80s, you know, because he's gay. But it's like, and he was like alone, you know. And it was a really gutsy thing for him to do. But he completely understood why it was so difficult for Michael to want to come out. And maybe also Michael was still evolving and coming to terms with who he was. But everybody, everybody, we all knew that Michael was gay.
Right. But you were closer in on the scene. And I'm sure he didn't mind that the people who were at Maxwell's, who were sort of part of that early circle of people, I mean, I'm sure he was very honest with people about that. also understood that there were thousands increasingly tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of people sitting further you know sitting behind you guys way out there in the bigger halls who were not necessarily going to be quite as open and generous with
their estimation of somebody with, you know, with a different kind of orientation. And also, I think, you know, again, we're talking about emotional maturity. Who talks about their orientation? You know, it's like you keep that pretty tight. It's like you don't sit around and tell strangers about your...
you know, who turns you on. No, it's true. Well, but there is a real point to the Murmurers tag. And I wonder about your perspective as a music lover. They never made another album that had the environment. of Murmur. I mean, that stands in all of musical history. I think that stands as one of those albums that, like, you feel that kudzu that is on the cover, you know. And Chronic Town was pointing to it, and Murmur got there, and then they never... What's your perspective on that?
You grow and you change. They made Murmur when they were in their early 20s. And I think the reason why you don't go back and do Murmur 2 or whatever is because... you know, you're evolving. You know, it's like we don't go back and rewrite the same types of stories that we wrote in the early 80s, you know, or the early 90s or whenever, you know, but it's like, because it's just... I think that if you have a...
If you have that commitment to your art and you're expressing something that's happening and you're trying to channel energy and feelings that are happening inside of you, which is what great artists do, there's not a lot of repeating going on. You know, and I think a lot of the, you know, which is maybe another reason why they're almost certainly not going to, you know, do a big reunion tour as much as I would love for that to happen. And I think also there, you know.
throughout their career, from day one to the very last day, they kept their artistry in focus at the center of what they were doing. however they were defining it in that moment. And I think their impulse, and I think one of their strengths as the chemistry between those four and then those three guys, was that they were all equally determined. to keep exploring and to keep breaking ground and to keep...
to be honest about who they were and where they were and what they were thinking in that particular moment. One of the things you were referring, the murmurers term comes from a chapter toward the very end of the book, which kind of gets in an... analyzes a little bit who the fans were how that evolved over the years and why certain like the earliest fans feel so connected to that record to murmur and you know there's those you know you go into any online
R.E.M. universe these days, and everyone, you know, I mean, you can sort of tell, like, the people who are just so committed to that record, but of course you get it. It's like, if you heard that record... In 1983, or you heard Chronic Town, or you just heard the single for Radio Free Europe, it was like a bat signal coming through the clouds.
in the context of what was going on in rock and roll and popular culture in the early 80s, you know, the kind of dread conformity that was getting pounded down on people sort of through, you know, I mean, remember how long it took for MTV? to actually play a video by an African American artist. Yeah.
You know, I mean, and all that stuff. And so what I'm saying is if you discovered them early and you were part of that crowd and you got to, you know, after the show, they would come out and drink beers and talk. books and music with anyone who wanted to talk to them and the next time they saw you in town they'd put you on the list like they were friends it was it was an intimate tight circle
You know, how fantastic is that? You don't want to lose that. Well, it was more than that. It was, you know, they were inviting us on the pilgrimage. Exactly. We were in the moral kiosk. We were going to fight the good fight with them. Right. And we were going to change things. And they did, you know, in terms of like gender acceptance and LGBTQ and supporting. the right causes and going green. You know, all of that.
And they set out to do every, you know, to do things in that particular way, you know, which is why, you know, when they set up their offices in Athens and then kept their offices in Athens. throughout their career when it would have been so much easier to put the main office in New York or LA. But they didn't do that. And at the same time, they were, I think, establishing something about how a band can simultaneously maintain their artistry and have a daring sensibility.
and challenge people while at the same time, amazingly enough, connecting with mainstream listeners. When we return, we'll discuss REM's transition to a major label and how it affected their career, trajectory, and music. That's in a minute on Sound Opinions. Sound Opinions is supported by Goose Island Beer Company. Since 1988, Goose Island's been brewing beers in and inspired by Chicago. They got 312 Weed Ale, Hazy Beer Hug, and...
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This week, we're talking with biographer Peter Ames Carlin about his latest book on one of our favorite bands ever, R.E.M. Now, it's been said that for early fans like Jim and me, the band was about more than just music. They represented the possibility of creating art of the highest caliber outside of the mainstream music industry.
I couldn't agree more, Greg. REM cared about environmental impact. They cared about social issues. They were political activists. They also became well-known for their all-for-one, one-for-all mentality. Among the band members, their... to management included, splitting the music publishing equally four ways among the musicians.
And some of these ideals became a little blurrier once they moved to Warner Brothers, a major label. For instance, the Equal Publishing got tricky when they involved musical collaborators like... Peter Hulsapple, who'd been in one of their bands that inspired them, the DBs. Well, his beef was that... He thought that, I think it was Lowe, one of those songs, that they had kind of written that together. You know, everybody has a different perspective. Well...
Yeah, they probably sort of kind of should have maybe given him some credit for that. But then there's this sort of chicken and egg thing of like, well, who was he just playing? Was he the author of that chord progression? Did he just start playing along? You know how that sort of stuff happens. People dive in and... And then the sort of who did what and how this evolved becomes really super murky. And I think the generous thing to do if you are REM is that you go.
He was there. We worked on that together in that moment. Let's just put his name on this thing and give him whatever. But they had had a terrible disagreement or fireworks over a point when Michael had insisted that Jeremy Ayers get... credit for, I can't remember, one of the early songs, one of the songs on, I can't remember which one now. Yeah, that he wrote lyrics for, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was like the other guys accepted that but they were kind of pissed about that. Like they didn't care for that at all. And I think they just had decided that as a part of their loyalty to one another is we're also going to keep everyone else out.
that can be problematic. And you end up in a situation where those guys are all phenomenally wealthy. Peter Holsappel definitely is not, but he could have certainly, you know, probably bought a house or sent several children to college, you know, with the royalties. off of a song. I had to go to work for Hootie and the Blowfish instead. Well, you know, as day jobs go... Yeah. Well, he makes a point in Tim Somer's biography of Hootie that they treated him better than R.A.M. did. Yeah.
Sure. But, you know, I mean, I think one of the things that makes a successful band successful at some point or an artist of any type is that you have to have mixed in with everything else, you know, a soupçon of ruthlessness. You have to know when something is not only not mission critical, but actually might be a drag on the mission, and then that thing has got to go. And sometimes it's a person, and that gets awkward.
Yeah, you know, I mean, this is the oldest story in the book in terms of the publishing, you know, like you ask Mick Taylor and Ron Wood about the Jagger Richards collaboration and how many songs they... appropriated from those guys and they just finally said all right i'm done i can't i can't deal with this anymore i'm not getting any of the songwriting whole sample had been around he's
he probably had more experience in bands than they did when they started out. Well, they worshipped the DBs. They worshipped. So it did kind of screw around. And, you know, there was this whole thing about we're going to maintain this... Paradox with the videos and stuff. They want to be on MTV, but they're making videos that MTV would never play. And then Jay Boberg has a great, you know, I thought one of the better parts.
of the book, the more insightful things was the whole idea about Jay Boberg at IRS who had developed the band, signed them on early, gave them a very... very generous deal at the start saying you know we're going to work with you guys over a long term here develop them and they did uh they didn't make one single video
where the IRS could say to MTV, you got to play this because this is a hit. And MTV basically ruled, was pop radio, was the most important radio station in the country in the 80s, as we all know. In the 90s, they get signed to Warner Brothers, and all of a sudden Stipe is lip syncing, and they're doing these kind of, the band is in the videos, and they're performing, and MTV's going to play those videos because they're making it accessible. They're not doing this arty abstract.
stuff and boberg's pissed we had you guys you wouldn't do this and now you're doing it so it just seemed like something just like okay we're we're going for it now And when they go to Warner Brothers, everything changes. We're not cool in India anymore. We want to play stadiums. That brings me to pages 345 to 347.
Writing as an outsider with more contempt for than knowledge of the music industry, De Regatta strayed toward the absurd, as when he asserted that the size of their new record contract would make the band hostage to their company's demands. Man. All right. Look, my knowledge of the music industry is what makes me cynical about the music industry. But an anecdote. You quote.
three or two and a half pages of me on the set with them in L.A., the fifth time I'd interviewed them. And, you know, I'd known Michael. I'd seen Michael puke on himself, getting drunk in a bathtub full of... blue whale. I mean, some weird alcohol mixture that Steve Fallon had made, you know, the after party in his apartment at above Maxwell's. Right. I knew these guys to say hello. And we were told he is only speaking to.
Bobby Ann Mason, the Southern novelist for the New York Times, do not approach Michael. I'm at the craft services table. I'm getting a Diet Coke. He comes over, he gets an apple. I say, hi, Michael. And Karen Burke from Warner. rushes off. How dare you? Your story's going to be evoked if you talk to my... I wasn't talking to him. I said hello. I would have said hello to the gaffer who picked up an Apple.
That's what it became. That was not what they were. That's what they became. And you quote, you know, Mills goes off on me. Mind your own effing business is what he's telling journalists. It wasn't about you. I asked him about the Matt Snow. But his thing about mind your own business was at the intimates who had spoken to Matt Snow. The people, the insiders who were quoted anonymously saying.
whatever troubles they were perceived as having. Now, in terms of the assertion that I make about your passion, I can't remember what it was. My creed to cool, you call it. I had to look it up. My passion to cry from the heart. Cree d'indicour, I believe is the actual phrase. Yeah, something like that. But the thing that I was responding to was when you...
When you said that the size of the New Deal that they had signed would essentially make it so that Warners could say, you're going to play these songs, you're going to promote this, like basically that they had signed over their souls and Warner was now in charge. When in actual fact, they had been so extremely successful to Warner, and also alone among major labels practically, Warner was happy to sit back. All those guys, Moe, that was after.
Mo and Lenny, but it was still, you know, but I think Russ Thyret was running the company at that point. Their whole sort of, you know, company-wide ethos was let the artists be the artists.
And they will, like all their deals, or the vast majority, obviously the company would or wouldn't get involved in either promoting or putting their muscle behind a record if they didn't care for it. But a band like R.E.M. who had sold at that point, you know, how many back-to-back-to-back 20 million sellers that they had at that point had made, you know,
epic riches for this label. And they were in charge. I mean, they never signed a deal. Starting with IRS and going through both Warner's deals, they were never going to sign a deal that was going to give the company essentially final cut over their albums. They were always going to be in control. At no point would they have had more control than when you sign a deal for 80 million bucks. Part of.
What I was writing about when New Adventures came out was the context. Burtis Downs had gone to Capitol Hill and sat beside Jeff Amant of Pearl Jam to decry Ticketmaster as a monopoly. All right. R.E.M. Fighting the good fight. The pilgrimage. Okay.
And then they turn around and jack up ticket prices to a point where in that article, Buck admits, we probably charge too much, and they use Ticketmaster. They wanted it both ways. That's when the St. Paul moment, the scales fell from my... eyes these guys talk a good game but they are Aerosmith they have become Aerosmith or the police I don't think so I think that any time – I mean all of us who do business in the big media –
There's – and we have our morals and ethical values and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But what do we know about the companies that we – who publish our work? You know, if a book of mine sells, like whose pocket does the money go into other than not mine, which is, you know, how these things work. So it's kind of like everybody who gets involved in...
Something like mainstream culture is probably doing business with people they would rather not be doing business with. But a fixed cost of the industry is that... You make certain compromises. And so the idea is, you know, in terms of the stuff that legitimately was a little creepy that you saw on the set of that video.
that you rightly, to which you rightly took exception. You know, you get into a situation where, you know, you're telling every single person, like, don't even look Mr. Stipe in the eye, you know. I mean, Michael's not like that, but sort of at the heat. the moment when you're that huge and every single person is like a heat-seeking missile trying to get to you. I'm sure, I don't know if Karen knew who you were or pulled you out, you know, understood. It's Karen Moss.
Oh, okay. You know, whether... she would have known exactly who you were or whether you were just a guy, you know, to her, as far as she knew. She didn't understand that. You're like, why people behave like that? I think it's weird, you know? Don't look Prince in the eye. You know, you can't, you know, Ms. Streisand prefers... It's like I think that's weird. I don't think that's a nice way to be.
And a lot of people, you know, are way better at that. But, you know, I mean, I think also the other thing that we don't quite understand, even given our proximity to... the, you know, famous people and everything is what it feels like to be in a position where every single, when you walk into a room, every single person, A, knows exactly who you are and would really love to have a relationship with you of one sort or the other.
You know, as quick as a handshake and a selfie or, you know, getting married, you know. And so it's like. And so that kind of protectiveness comes in and it feels bad for everybody else. It distorts people. And interviewing the band in that mid-90s period where they got what they wanted. They always said, you know, we can do this. And even Bill Berry, that was interesting to me that Bill Berry was the one who said, let's go for it. It's time to do this big tour. Right.
He struck me as the most reluctant guy in that set of interviews I was doing around that period. He was like, now that I'm into this, I really, it's a careful what you wish for kind of scenario. Why did I want the brass ring? And, you know, the scales did fall off for a lot of us at that point where, you know, the hope and dreams we had for this band in the 80s, you know, we put a lot. invested a lot of
hopes and dreams as our youthful selves in this band. And they pretty much lived up to it for a decade plus. And then they made two great records for Warners. Out of Time and Automatic. Those records work. Automatic. Here's a question for you, Peter. So Barry leaves the band. He's had these medical issues. He has an aneurysm, you know, blow up on stage.
And he's in the hospital, and three of the four guys in the band go in the hospital on that epic 95-96 tour. And it's, you know, Barry leaves the band. So here's the final straw for me was Barry leaving the band and them continuing without Bill Barry for, you know, I know they signed the deal with Warner Brothers. They got the big money. I suppose they felt compelled to. you know, fulfill that contract. And let's face it, they all wanted to be multimillionaires too, right?
They already were multi-millionaires at that point. The soul went out of that band for me as soon as that happened, when Barry was gone, and people did not realize how important that guy was to the band. It goes back to that one-for-all kind of attitude that they had with splitting the royalties. So your sense of that Barry decision, because I don't think they made a good record.
New Adventures in Hi-Fi, I still stand by that record. Jim doesn't. I was wrong. But after that, those five albums are, you know, I never listen to them. Listen, why did they stay together? Was it strictly because they wanted to grind it out and do a cash grab until all the money was gone? No. They continued to be a new kind of R.E.M., a three-legged R.E.M.
And to and to push themselves and to do different things and to be, you know, I think they were still in love with their chemistry, with the artistry that only, you know. three of the four or three of them could do. I think they were having fun. They were enjoying themselves. They were still making music that they were interested in and believed in and wanted to get out there.
And I don't think there's anything shameful in that. And Bill also was like, if you guys break up, I won't go, but I'll be miserable. and so you know he was very invested in the band continuing and then they went on and played you know i saw them play a bunch of times in the latter days and you know it's like are those latter-day records you know as exciting and as terrific as your
ones? You know, arguably not, but do they all include like several high points that are like songs that are among, you know, that are definitely, you know, certainly approach the top rank of R.E.M. songs? Absolutely. Am I happier in a world where those five records exist versus the world that would exist without those five records? Yes, I am. I mean, there's great songs there. Who's perfect? Would it have been cooler if Bill stayed in the band and was still a part of that chemistry?
Yeah, I think so. Bill's role in that band is really interesting because he was the editor-in-chief of that band, and he was the guy that they all trusted. So somebody would come in with some... passion project you know and he'd go no and they'd go okay you know and save it for something else or try to figure out how to make it work you know i mean i got a bunch of people talking about him like he'd say
It's got to rock. That doesn't rock. And how you define rock, obviously it's not just blam, blam, blam. No, no, what he meant by that was a world of meaning, yeah. Yes, exactly. And, you know, and Bill, you know, one of the things I mean, it's kind of I tried not to punch it too hard, but I hope nobody misses the point that, you know, Bill, who was the hard, you know, maybe the hardest charging of them all in the.
And the guy that held their feet to the fire and said, you're going to have to quit school if we're going to really do this, you know, and basically forced or, you know, talked Stipe and Mills into dropping out. dropping out of college so that they could do this you know and then was flirting with joining love tractor until those guys in that band said they didn't want to drop out of school
Then he was like, okay, well, then I'll go back to REM. And that's like 1981, I think, or 82. But he had those second thoughts. And I hope nobody misses the point that... The band got huge and then they got huger and then they got huger than that. And in the middle of that, you know, when they're at their absolute high point. my man's head explodes. You know, I mean, and it's just sort of like, it's a metaphor and it's right on the money.
When we come back, we're going to ask Peter more about REM's legacy today and what songs he would recommend to hook someone on their catalog. That's In A Minute on Sound Opinions. And we are back. Yes, we are talking about REM. Let's get back into that conversation. I choose to look back on this. I know we've been nitpicky here, Peter. But at the same time, the band...
has done that rare feat where probably for a good, I mean, we could argue about when, but I'd say a good 15 years where they were pretty damn good. And that is such a rare achievement. in any career field, you know, if you think about it. I mean, most bands don't even get past a year, right? They went 15 years where the quality, the level of music and the tours and the records were amazing.
So it's good to have this document. I mean, look 50 years from now, 100 years from now, how are people going to look back on REM? That's a good question. You know, I hope that it's one of the interesting things is that because.
they manage to keep so much of their personal lives out of the story. You don't have that kind of... I think a lot of audience members... don't feel the same visceral connection that they feel with like, you know, Bruce Springsteen or somebody who's way more comfortable connecting the dots between his actual lived experience of life and...
and what he's saying in his music, so that when you listen to his music, you feel like you're in some way, shape, or form sort of looking into the soul of this person who has written this thing. They have always been, you know, our friends in REM have always been...
and a little more evasive about where the lines are. Again, it speaks to their emotional maturity to some degree. But I think that one of the things that happens is you end up... it makes it more difficult for people coming in the subsequent decades to connect with what you've done because they don't, the human story of it, it's more difficult. difficult to connect to and it feels more attached to a particular historical moment which is constantly receding into the background.
background sometimes things can change you know and suddenly you get this upswell in interest or maybe some other you know some other artist will suddenly cover one of their songs or make a sound that recontextualizes older music in a way where if an artist that sort of evokes that sound suddenly connects with a mainstream audience. then suddenly that mainstream audience may connect the dots to this earlier thing, and then it...
you know, it fits into today's world. I mean, we saw this a little bit with REM with when their music was featured so intensely in The Bear in the second season of that show. And, you know, and they're all over that second season. I mean, it's... set to two or three of their songs. And there was a big upswell, certainly what I was seeing on the internet, of new people getting drawn in.
you know, REM Central was making, you know, a certain amount of hay from that, you know, as you do. But it's hard to say, you know, it's, I think the fact that, you know, If they did like a big reunion tour, if they suddenly showed up at Coachella and began to, you know, do that kind of stuff, I think, you know, their legacy would be enhanced. I don't know, you know...
New generations of people would connect with them. Suddenly, a lot of people out there haven't heard these songs because these guys broke up 13 years ago. And they weren't as big as they were 30 years ago. But I think that, you know... The fact that they're not trying to sort of assert themselves into the world now all these years later speaks well of their original intentions.
And I think it underscores, in a lot of ways, the value of the work that they did and the importance of what they did. It's a little bit of a shame because maybe they will recede. They're not there. You know, I saw Bruce Springsteen play in New Jersey a couple weeks ago, and it was fantastic. Bruce is great, and he's one of the things that he really doesn't mind doing.
is going back and playing two-thirds of Born to Run and playing all this old stuff and keeping it out there. And so you see generations and generations of people who are like, died in the letter fans of Bruce Springsteen to this day. But R.E.M.'s not doing that. And we celebrate that to a degree because it seems to say something about... their actual commitment to their artistry. But it does tend to quiet the signal a little bit as we move.
through the decades. Well, Buck is such a student of rock history, though. You know, you have Mills now touring as Big Star with nobody but the drummer. You know, and Buck has always known, you know, it's kind of cool to be love. have forever changes rediscovered 30 years later. And that's what I can see in the future for REM. But they won't necessarily be part of it.
I think Kirk has nailed something when they, you know, the publishing industry publication. They started out strange and hard to interpret and still are. And to be clear, we haven't mentioned this, Peter, but... They didn't talk to you for the book. I had a good, yes, right, exactly, which tracks. with who they were and who they are. I mean, officially they didn't. I was, you know, I mean, I spoke to Peter a bunch. You know, we...
carried on a dialogue throughout the whole thing, you know, and I didn't sit down and try to do a big interview with him because he made it clear, you know, that that wasn't something they were interested in doing. But none of them, you know, I mean, when I wrote about Paul Simon, he was like, actively trying to stop me. Like actively reaching out to people and
cautioning them against me or whatever, or asking them not to do this, that, or the other. You know, the REM guys all in their way, you know, asked, reached out to friends and family and said, no, it's okay. You can talk to him, you know, and then, you know, there were places. places along the way where I, you know, each of them, you know, were, you know, not, you know, cooperative and helpful. So, you know, it paid, I, you know, I knew them beforehand, you know, some better than others. And...
I know Peter's read my stuff and everything, so he knows what I do and who I am. When I lived in Portland, I'd see him around all the time. We have a bunch of friends in common, and he didn't live very far from where I was. stretch and unfriendly uh you know antagonistic situation um you know i would have been a In a way, I mean, I was disappointed but not surprised at all when they were like, yeah, you know, go with God. But I don't think we want to do this because.
You know, I mean, people have trouble talking to biographers because, you know, when you get into someone's life, it's like as opposed to just writing the piece that's about the new project or whatever, the thing that they're promoting in this moment. So you go back and you go back and you say.
well let's talk a little bit about this thing that you know I was talking to your friends from kindergarten let's talk about what happened You know, Peter, I've got 200 first-year, first-semester students this time around at school, college, and I don't think they have any clue who REM was. Right? So if you were sitting down with a 17, 18-year-old, what's the one song you'd steer them to? To make them believe. Who? Okay.
Who is this kid? What else do they listen to? You know, I mean, it's like... Right now, Chapel Rhone, I think, is whatever. Yeah, well... You know, I love, there's so many of their songs that I love. Like, what are the ones that kind of, you know, and they have these very distinct eras, and there's certain songs that float to the surface from each of them. I think, like, Man in the Moon is, to me, sort of combines a lot of the things about that band that I really love.
I mean, I think it's a beautiful song. I love the story of how it came together and how they wrote it. I think Michael's lyric and the way that he sort of evokes... Andy Kaufman and the culture of the 70s and being a kid in the 70s. And, you know, I mean, that has always been very powerful. for me. And I just think it's a beautiful, beautiful, sweet, sad song that twists together a lot of unexpected things into a really, you know...
into a top 10 smash hit that also had a cool video. You know, it's like, so to me, it's like, that one's hard to resist. Some people may be going for the noise, though. Maybe they want something a little more, a little wilder than that. Maybe if you played the one I love to anybody, and they just heard that first riff, the drum pickup. and then the guitar. It's undeniable to my ears at any rate.
But then again, you get a song like Losing My Religion. Like that was a smash for a reason. Because even though it's like the weirdest song ever, it's like the mandolin is the lead instrument. You know, the guy is singing in these weird sort of elliptical riddles. I have no idea what he's saying, but I feel what he's saying. You know what I mean?
And that's really important, too. So it's like, I'm always in a map, guys. Well, REM was, too. I remember sitting with Stipe while he ate frozen pizza and dripped it all over himself. And I don't understand what the time was. title, Losing My Religion, and he had to explain to me the southern saying. It's just like you're losing it. You're at the end of your rope. And he looked at me like I had two heads. Two-headed cow, yeah. Well, thank you.
Yeah, it's my pleasure, fellas. It's been a treat. Thank you very much. We've been talking to Peter Ames Carlin. The name of this band is REM is the book. Thanks, Peter, for talking REM with us. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. That wraps up our discussion of REM. I wish there was a better ending, but now we want to hear from you. Leave us a voice message on our website, soundopinions.org, and share your thoughts. Mr. Kopp, what is on the show next week?
Next week, Jim, the fascinating music of South Africa with a terrific writer who has written a terrific book about that very subject, Lior Phillips. And don't forget to check out our bonus podcast where we add new songs to the Desert Island jukebox. For more Sound Opinions, listen to our podcast wherever you find such things. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this program belong solely to Sound Opinions.
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