¶ Episode Introduction and Guest Insights
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Hi everybody and welcome back to Sorry I Missed This, the show where we talk about all things ADHD and its relationship to sex, intimacy, communication, relationships, and more. As always, it's me, your host. In this episode, we sit down with Casey Davis to talk about household division of labor and how that division can impact relationships. You might notice that this episode is a little bit less formal and a little bit more conversational than some of our other episodes of sorry I missed this.
That's because Casey and I wanted to sit down and talk about our own experiences and how our interests and our expertise and our research helps us, but can sometimes also hinder us in our ability to divide labor equitably and what we do in those situations. I feel like sometimes it's really important to acknowledge that we are not perfect people either. And so I had a really great time sitting down with Casey and discussing these things.
She is a therapist, author, educator, incredible content creator. You might know her from her book How to Keep House While Drowning, her podcast Struggle Care, or the thousands of incredible videos that she's made online. So without further ado, welcome to the episode.
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Hi Casey Davis, welcome back to the show.
Hello, dear friend.
So today we are talking about uh division of labor. And division of labor, you write about it, you talk about it, you teach people about it, you're like this is like a large bulk of your content. Why do we need to worry about that so very much, Casey Davis? I'm gonna just c keep saying your whole name the whole time.
I mean, I think it kind of came up naturally. Like when I first started talking about like care tasks and ADHD and neurodivergence and like how we can make things easier for ourselves. The number one thing that came up was like, well, what if my partner is what makes it so hard? Yeah. And I also just think like having been a therapist, I also just like totally get the like constant torture of like
¶ Personal Battles with Chore Distribution
Am I not standing up for myself enough? Or am I being blind to how hard the other one's working and like I need to cut them a break?
I went through this period of time where I was like really frustrated because I really was doing the bulk of the work, right? And we kinda like went through that rough patch and we we s my husband and I like we still like who's we? Like my husband and I we started like, you know, negotiating more and like really talking about it and really delving in. And then it turned into and then he was always
doing the dishes and always emptying the dishwasher and all like and doing all the stuff that I had not been doing. And then I had that moment of like, oh no, now I have to start stepping up because I was sort of like Not like revengefully, but I think like unconsciously being like, well, I've been doing it for so long, so you can do it now. So like, have you ever like run into that? Oh
There's like a whole genre online of like women compare complaining about their husbands.
Yeah.
carrying their fair share. And that is like such an important sociological thing to tackle. It's important for feminism, for like progress. It's a very common problem. And Not everybody falls into the stereotypes. Like I would watch these videos where a woman would be complaining about how her man did things. And some of the time I'd be like so angry for her because like, oh, step up. But then like some of the time I'd be like, Oh, your husband sounds like me.
Yeah. Like I sometimes relate more to the husband that was like I did it good enough or like I didn't want to do it. Yeah. And I think also having ADHD and like thinking about how I grew up and this doesn't happen with my marriage, thank God, but it happens with other things where like The idea that like I would come home to a place that was supposed to be like a safe place to relax.
But it still feel like I was at work where someone was observing and managing and assessing and like, can I be sitting down right now? How long can I be sitting before someone feels like I should get up and do something? Because there's always something to do. That to me sounds like hell.
That happened to me too, where I our house got really bad. Our house got like And I was like, okay. And so then I, you know, started being like, Okay, well I it's my fault because I'm the messy one. I'm the one with ADHD. I'm the one who forgets to do stuff. So like I need to fix this. But I was still doing everything else that I was doing during the day, being a busy person.
And then I w so then it would be like night and then my husband would come home from his job and then I would be like cleaning and then I would feel like guilty if I wasn't clean. I'd be like, Oh my god, I'm so sorry that I'm not doing it. He's like, What are you talking about? We're we're spending time together. You don't need to be like doing all of this stuff. And I I really got in my head about it. I would feel such guilt around rest. I would feel such guilt around like inaction.
And I think a lot of that came from growing up in a house where it was like, Well, if you you know, like if you got time to lean, you got time to clean that kind of like energy, you know? And it was it's it's been fascinating. interrogating just that part, just that part of if I ignore the fact that like the dishes aren't done, if but instead I'm going to choose rest, how bad that feels in my body sometimes. And then how that leads into
this weird feeling of like, well now I'm not doing enough. I'm not contributing enough. It's
So much more complex than people make it seem because there are things that are true on a macro level. that are not helpful on a micro level. Like those things are so true at a societal activism level of like We deserve better as women, but like this is the person you're married to. Yeah. So like unless this is truly a deal breaker, and for some people it is, and for some people it should be, there is not a magical option where your husband is a different person tomorrow.
¶ Navigating Weaponized Incompetence
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I am fascinated by the conversation around weaponized at confidence because no one is born knowing how to effectively sweep a floor. Sometimes there is a gap. There is like a learning gap. There is like a, oh, my mom always did my laundry. So no, I've never interacted with a washing machine. And so that's when I feel like it gets into like
nuance on the internet because it's like if your husband or partner whoever is consistently destroying your clothes because he refuses how to learn how to work the washing machine, that is one thing. But not knowing or like maybe even like not thinking about needing to know.
That's different.
I'm not saying that that's like, oh, it's fine if you never thought about doing the laundry in the 20 years that you've been married. Like that's also not okay. But that's a different conversation. Yeah.
Yes, and and we're also we're not set up to have a very helpful, nuanced public conversation about when men are neurodivergent.
Yeah.
Because it's not like you could go into a person's brain and like slice out this is the part of you that struggles with this because you're neurodivergent and this is the part of you that struggles with this because you've been raised in the patriarchy and there's maybe some entitlement here.
How do you like navigate through that as like a part?
when I'm talking to somebody and they're struggling with, you know, division of labor, I always ask like, tell me about the rest of your relationship. Yeah. Because there's a really big difference between Someone showing up consistently in lots of different areas with inconsideration, with entitlement, with meanness.
Um and then that's different than like it's it's this area in particular where we're really clashing over and over. And then also like sometimes I just want to know like, do you like it?
Ha ha ha.
And that seems so silly, but like there's a really big difference between like This is my best friend. And I've known nothing but kindness and respect from him and I can't imagine my life without him. And he fucking sucks at this like part of our life.
That is exactly how I feel about my husband, like 100%. And like, but but he worked on it. Like and that was the thing. And and to his credit, one of the most meaningful things that happened with my husband is that he started going to therapy.
¶ Building Trust and Overcoming Challenges
And he realized that he was dealing with depression. He just knew that he was like struggling and he didn't have like words to name it. There have been many times when he's talked about like, I'm so sorry that I wasn't doing this, that or the other thing. I was so depressed, I had no idea. And so like that division of labor conversation.
I was so scared. I was genuinely scared for a while that like we were gonna like end our relationship, that we were gonna get divorced. Like I was like, this is untenable. I can't live like this anymore. And what actually wound up happening was that That very hard, very rough patch conversation wound up really strengthening our relationship. And I realized.
that like he is my best friend. Like he is my number one biggest fan, biggest supporter. And like, you know, he would go to the end of the earth. But I do sometimes have to remind him to like take the garbage out. You know what I mean? And I was like, that's fine. I like I that's fine. That is fine.
¶ ADHD, Time Blindness, and Fair Rest
Well, it's also hard because studies show that men and women both overestimate how much they do in a relationship.
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What I'm curious about is because this is a podcast about like ADHD. So then there's also like time perception. There's also that, right? So it's like I'm already overestimating how much time, but I also live with actual time perception differences, time blindness. So like that
That gets like
Really messy really quickly when it comes to like I like I don't want to say accountability, but like accounting for
For some people.
Time spent. Yeah.
Right. Um it is hard. And so I find myself being in this place where it's like, okay, I feel like you know, my partner is resting too much. Or like, you know, he comes home at this time and doesn't really do XYZ. And there were some times in our life where, you know, I had been taking care of young children all day or I had been maybe writing a book.
You know, my my kids were in school, but I literally I took I woke up at six, I got them to school, I came home at eight, I wrote until three, my kids came home, I engaged with the kids, and then when my husband gets home at seven, he reads and puts the kids to bed and then like takes the evening. And I'm like Ah do something right. Yeah. However There are also some days and some seasons. Like right now I'm kind of in between projects and like both of my kids are at school.
It's been months and months where like I do whatever I want until three. And then like he gets home and like he's literally been on go, go, go, since he left. Or like on Saturdays, if he just wants to chill on a Saturday and I'm like, but this is our family day. And I'm like, Oh, but like
This is literally his one day to do nothing. I get to do nothing for large spans of the day. And that's why in How to Keep House While Drowning, I talk about it's not so much about like the work being equal as much as it is the rest being fair.
Everyone deserves time to come home and turn it off and not feel like their teacher is grading them or their mom is watching them. Yeah. And like having that honest conversation about like how much time am I getting like that and how much time am I protecting for my spouse to get.
Yeah, but I...
¶ Perfectionism Versus Trust in Chores
I also fullheartedly believe and trust my husband to like be doing his best. And that's not always the case.
What is the l the line between I don't even know how to like ask this question. Like critique and perfectionism and well, I'm neurodivergent and this is and I have like rigidity around the way that things are always done. Like I, me personally, Kate, I load the dishwasher like a fucking madman. Like I is Like I just I like it's just like they're going in. They're gonna again my theory is like they're going in, they're getting washed. Like I don't give a fuck.
But I know that there are people in the world who would look at the way that I do that and they would go like weaponized incompetence. And and so it's like Talking about that kind of like feeling like you're being watched, feeling like you're being evaluated, how do you notice when you're doing that. But then also when you are feeling it about the things that you are doing, how do you how do you like navigate through do you kind of know what I'm I'm
I do. I totally do. But I think sometimes we jump right to like treating the symptom without looking at the root. And I really think that like people that are clashing about division of labor, like we need to start way back at like How's the trust between you two? How's the friendship between you two? Like the whole like comparing, keeping score, I don't know anyone that does that out of malice. We do that out of fear. Because if I don't trust that you're gonna look out for me, I have to look
Because if I give an inch, you'll take a mile. Yeah. If I give you the benefit of the doubt, you'll take advantage. There's no practical way of splitting division of labor that will fix that problem at its root. Yeah.
Yeah. That I feel like is a really good summation. Is like i if there is a fear around
Bing.
taking advantage or taking for granted, that's like Cause I I've never, never in my entire relationship have I felt that. But I know that there are people who are who are existing in relationships where that is true.
When it comes to division, I've had the fear.
What if he's just
Yeah. But I'm also able to like pause and back up and look at our whole relationship because the amount of times that my husband has said to me, like, hey, honey, like I think maybe we need to like tighten it up a little bit, is zero. Yeah. Yeah. He's just always been so overly gracious and seen me as a person and a human being that's also enjoying life, not a business partner who's not pulling their weight.
And so like that makes me go, you know what? Like If all he ever did was work and come home and do and do that, like that sucks that he wouldn't get to have a hobby. Right. And like we're never gonna be able to see everything objectively.
Yeah.
More about like what's the story I'm telling myself. Is the story I'm telling myself he's trying to take advantage, he doesn't care, he doesn't see what I do, I'm not appreciated. Or, oh, actually this person has supported me in so many ways. And like I want him to also have a happy and fulfilled life, right? Like, and so that's not about a schedule for who does the dishes.
¶ Chore List Debate and Dynamics
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So one of the questions that I wanna touch on, because this is this is a fiercely contested and hotly debated issue online around this kind of topic, is lists. is the idea of like a list is like a hey, can you help with the following things? And that idea of like, well, I shouldn't have to make a list or the list is labor or, you know, like that's just putting all of the emotional and and processing on me.
How do we navigate that? I love a list. Uh, but I also know that there's a lot of people who are adamantly anti-list.
Sometimes I wonder this. I can't think of a job. Where Two people have the exact same role. And there's no discussion on who's gonna do what. Yeah. And I think this about like when we're laying down and we're both reading a book and our kid comes in and says, I'm hungry. Which one of us? is going to decide that they're gonna be the one to get up and make a meal. Because either
there's like a general maybe like default parent that is always the one that does that and the other one does it if the other one's not available. Or you look at each other and say, Do you want to do it or do I want to do it? And I don't think that like either one of those is like right, wrong, good, or bad, but I just think that it's helpful to understand which dynamic you've either chosen or fallen into. In my house, we kind of have like a default parent.
system because of the way that our jobs work. And because my schedule is so much more flexible. And like I kind of do most of those things. I'm the automatic, okay, like I I get up and I make the meals. I will make all the meals for the kids or whatever.
So when my husband does that is when he's either like asked directly, like if a kid comes to him and says, I'm hungry, he will feed them, obviously. If the kid comes and we're both there, there's kind of this understanding that like I'm gonna get up and do it unless I don't. So he's not gonna be someone to be like, okay, and like hop up out of bed. He will wait a a beat. And if I say, um, I'm busy right now Or if I say if I you know, like like he'll wait a bit.
And then he'll get up. And sometimes it's not even like spoken. Like if one of our kids like hollers out like they're fighting and we're sitting next to each other, like there's a beat. And if I don't move, he'll get up. And people will hear that and be like, oh, that's so unfair, you know, y da da da da but like we know that's the dynamic because that's just kind of what works. But I also know that that means that if I don't want to be the one jumping up all day.
I have to look over him and be like, Hey, go f will you go feed him some lunch? It's lunch. Yeah. And that I don't feel like that's me like telling him what to do or having a list or what da da da like there doesn't have to be a default parent. But when there's not, it's usually a communication.
Yeah.
Do you want to get this diaper or do you want me to? Do you want to get this meal or do you want me to? And so I think it you have to kind of recognize what you have, but also know how to work with what you have.
One of the things that I think is challenging around this conversation is'cause I'm picturing our dear listeners in their car just like yelling like, Well, that's great for you, you know, like that kind of thing. There's so much of the conversation that is deeply nuanced and you cannot paint any of this with with like the broad brush of like weaponized incompetence or
you know, misogyny or sexism or whatever it may be. And once again we get to the the secret point of every episode of Sorry I missed this. You have to really know what works for you and what doesn't, because I am absolutely a dishes every four Son. Um and it is convenient that my husband is also a dishes every light.
three to four days person. And so we like really wind up taking turns and like, Okay, I'll you know, I got it this time, you know, I don't um But I'm also very much like if the garbage is garbage is full, it needs to go out now because otherwise I'm gonna stack this trash on the counter and then that becomes the little trash pile and then the whole kitchen suddenly and and time blindnessly
is r is ruined. That's the bottleneck. I also have like a degenerative spine issue, so I can't lift the garbage out safely all of the time. So I have to have somebody. And a lot of times that somebody isn't necessarily like checking the trash can every five minutes to see if it's at the bottleneck, you know, zone. So sometimes I have to be like, Hey, can you take the trash out? It's it's fine.
But there are also people who would go, I should never have to ask. I should like the trash if you if the trash needs to be taken out, it should just get taken out. My curse is that I I can always see it from the point of view of like this absolutely works for me and I'm fine with that. And I can also see it from the people to whom st that would be infuriating.
¶ Core Conflicts and Relationship Health
Two things. One is I think it kinda goes back to like How do we help people when we're talking generally? Because it is so nuanced. And I think, you know, calling back to earlier when we were talking about like at the end of the day, whether or not you feel that your partner gives you the benefit of the doubt and like that you have to like defend yourself, like that's the bigger thing. Yeah. And that in my opinion, when you are mean to each other
That trust.
is chipped away and it's
Ex
Extremely difficult and for some people impossible to build again. Like once you've kind of crossed this line of going low, of taking advantage of vulnerability, of exploiting weakness if uh in a cruel way, it is damn near impossible unless you both are incredibly committed.
to clawing your way back to a place like that. If you're wounding to each other on purpose, forget about the dishes. You ha you're never gonna get anything else done unless you address that behavior. The other thing I think is like every couple either argues about sex, money or dictionary.
When I say dishes, I obviously mean like division of labor. Knowing that like every couple is arguing about at least one of those three things. And I why when I say arguing, I mean like they just aren't compatible in that area.
Ня.
And it's a constant chronic sense of tension. I think that's helpful to know because if there is one of those areas where you're constantly conflicting over and you're going, but we don't constantly conflict over the other two. And we don't, we're not cruel to each other when we're mean, that tells you like This is really just a sort of like this is just the grind of life of two people trying to come together and and like in some ways that's always gonna be tricky and a little bit difficult.
But if you find Two out of three, three out of three of these things, we are constant like we're actually constantly conflicting over a lot like all three of them. Or we're constantly conflicting over two of them and there's cruelty with like that is that's when you kind of look at and I'm not saying this isn't a magic number, like, oh my God, we conflict over two, but not but not one. But like I'm just saying, like Yeah, there's a difference between like
In the areas where we are compatible, it's so great. It's just not great in this one area where like we're just not naturally kind of on the same rhythm. And we're not cruel to each other. So it's just hard. That's a very different relationship than a relationship where, hey, we're not compatible in any of these areas. And there's not enough goodwill and tenderness. to carry us through a lifetime of conflicting over this one area.
That's such a good metric. I feel like this is a great place to end this episode. Uh before we go though, have you I don't know, this is a crazy question. Have you written like any forewords for any books recently? Is uh like You don't know how you think.
I did I wrote I wrote the foreword for your book. Use your name And voiced it audiobook.
Oh did you That's a surprise, I didn't know that until right now.
Cool. Surprise. Thank you.
Thank you for listening. Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at sorryimistthis at understood.org. This show is brought to you by understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org slash gift.
Sorry I missed this is produced by Jessamine Molly and edited by Jesse DiMartino. Video is produced by Calvin Keney. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright. Production support provided by Andrew Rector. Brianna Berry is our production director, Neil Drumming is our editorial director. From understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Koshir, and Jordan Davidson. And I'm your host, Kate Osborne. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you again soon.
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