Mike Walker

I like the way he coaches. UM, I like the way he works with his players, and UM, he's one of those instructors that works, you know, around the world. UM with players. Um, he helps them get better. And UM we kind of take a deep dive into Matt Fitzpatrick's US Open win and UM, he's got a lot of good things say. Matt is a very very unique and interesting player and easily one of the hardest workers I've ever seen. And UM, Mike a big part of

his success. And really excited to get him on the podcast. So sit back and enjoy listening to Mike Walker. So my guess is Mike Walker. Um. In my opinion, Mike is one of the best golf instructors in the professional game. Um. And if you need evidence as to why his student Matt Fitzpatrick just won the US Open, Mike, thanks for taking a time to talk to us. Um. What an amazing accomplishment from Matt. UM. I know you were there. UM. I've been lucky enough to be around players when they

won major championships. It's a it's a very unique situation, and I don't think anyone can could prepare you for all the aftermath of it. It's um, it's quite chaotic after they win, isn't it. Well. I actually wasn't there on the night. I left on the Saturday night. UM, so the USPGA, he is kind of in the final group, and everybody convinced me to stay another day, and I ended up staying and he had a bad day. I got bumped onto another flight the next day. I got

COVID on the way home and stuff. So I thought, this time, I'm not It's probably remained that way from now on. But now I missed the end of the end of the tournament celebrations. But but I do totally appreciate what you're saying. It's a it's a whirlwind that comes after it for sure. Um, what do you remember

about that week? Because I've always said whenever players win tournaments in my experience that I've been lucky enough to be around it, and more so when they win majors, There's always been something about them during that week that is different and I can never describe it or put my finger on it. I try and rack my brain in retrospect. What was different that week there? There is something different. I just can't figure out what it is.

But yeah, I mean, particularly that week with Matt. One of my biggest beers that week was that it was almost kind of there was an air of destiny about it with winning the U Sama there, and I was the thing that I was pleased about in the build up was I didn't I didn't get the sense that there was any frantic nature to it. He seemed that he seemed almost relaxed, as if it was all gonna happen,

and it was. It was kind of the thing that nobody was saying, you know, he was just trying to act normal and just like usual billy cracking jokes and and I just think that but it wasn't just that was the host family was with It was the same and and that they were that that was a guy he stayed with there, he stayed with joining the U Samma and he's a really really cool guy. He's like one of us. I've been looking enough to stay in his house once and they make the best host you

can hope for. And he's will Fault and new really really good value for money. I don't think people realize how much the stuff with players off the course goes into the on course success. You have a week where the Majors is, you know, they're very ramped up. The guys are always kind of heightened. Yeah, US coaches were always trying to figure out ways to keep them calm, to keep them relaxed and all that, which is hard

to do because the stage is the biggest stage. They know it, We know it, um, The caddies all know it, the agents, everybody on the team knows it. Um. But you get an opportunity like that from that, who's one on that golf you want to you know, probably the biggest at that's on the biggest golf tournament of his life to win the Amateur there I think was in pass sounds about right. Yeah, Um, it's a golf course city.

Felt comfortable on UM. He stays with a host family and that can really make a huge difference on a big, big week like that because the off course stuff is just so much quieter. Yeah, I think. UM. I remember being at Wingfoot with Matt a few years ago and that week he he kind of said on the Wednesday,

you could tell. I could tell throughout majors over the years that he's different those weeks, like you say, And after Wingfoot asked, I've made a comment to him that like, you do realize that you are different those weeks, and and you kind of go to maybe an event the week after or two weeks later, and everything is a lot more chilled, And he was quite surprised when I

said that. Um. And this year, I remember the first major when we were at Augusta, he was like, I want you to tell me if you notice something different or the the normal, I want you to tell me, And and it kind of got to Thursday or something and he said that you haven't said anything. I was like, no,

So I think he's made a conscious effort. But also you know through years that the novel to the great places to go, but it's not like the first time you've been there, becomes more normal, and I guess he's been more and more comfortable on the PGA Tours each

year has gone by so UM. And then at Brookline, Yeah, he was just went through all the routines that he normally goes through, and I did from a personal standpot I did after the first round, he didn't really his irons great, and we he was he would normally at balls after the round, but it was late and it was windy, and the thing that was unusual. We actually did some technical work and he's warm up on the Friday UM and it fortunately clicked. And then I didn't

say anything to him the rest of the week. Really, it was just stood there and watched him in the charts. UM. I find him to be a very very unique UM type of player. UM. I think his approaches is I mean, I've just I've never seen anyone with an approach like it. The way he is incredible to meet from an outsider looking in, I watch you guys do things. He seems to be incredibly detail oriented where I mean we've read that. You know, he writes down every single shot that he hits. UM.

The way that he practices seems incredibly specific. There seems to be a lot of drills, a lot of repetition, a lot of you know, these building blocks of you know, practice, practice, practice practice. Um, what's it like working with him and how would you describe how he is as a player and how he is to work with? Uh, He's taught me things through this process. He got it. He got heavily into it a few years ago, but so he was always kind of technical related stuff that we did.

And I've actually worked less over since he started doing it. I think he's started in two thousand nineteen and ticular where it was this taking it from the range to the course. And there's a lot of research out there saying that you know, block practicing golf, just hitting the same shot, same lives is um limited. So he employed

a performance director. He works with Eduardo with his Molinari, with his stats, and they started coming up with bespoke kind of skills tests, whether they were based on medium, long term technical games or the course that was in front of them that week. And it was basically making

it much more random the practice. So he'd still do his blocks of technique work, but that he would kind of do skill based stuff where it was much more variable and much more specific to either what he was trying to areas of his game that was trying to improve all the course that was in front of him that week, and he really kind of embraced it, loved it, and I would not have the supplined to do it.

I would find it. I mean that little black book that he's constantly writing, and it's just like tracking, like how far it's from the flag. It all gets put in a data base that all gets and there's a mountain of data now from years years back. And I mean Billy calls him Bernard Langer's love child. He's uh, he's just like, well I can. I was so admire him for it because the dedication to his craft is um. He sacrifices a lot. And it's just the day to

day every day. There's gym work, there's skilled practice, there's workouts, there's a and it's a lifestyle. It's um, you know, it's not it's not just a job. It's it's I saw him at the Open Championship at St. Andrews and I hadn't seen him since he won, and I said this to him and I meant it. I said, listen, I've been out on tour a lot, you know, pretty much my entire life. I'm in my fifties now, I've watched a lot of great players, and I mean this,

and I said this to him, I don't know. I mean, you can maybe say, I mean, obviously Tiger Woods is the benchmark and all that, but I don't think, Mike, I've seen a player work harder day in day out. I mean, the work rate with Matt never stops. I mean, it never looks like he's ever taking in the times that I see him at tournaments, Um, it doesn't look

like he's ever taking any days off. It doesn't ever look like he's saying, hey, I'll just take the afternoon off of phone and in today I'm a little tired of men do this. I mean, as soon as he gets done playing, as you mentioned, he's no. I mean I've watched he get a little bit of food, but he's back on the rage after every round hitting balls. He's going through this this kind of process, and it has been remarkable to watch the work rate that he's got because that, as you know, Mike, that can be

unbelievably draining and taxing, on on on golfers and people. Yeah, we we've nobody I kind of remember anybody in his team saying he needs to work harder. That we're more often telling him to like put the brakes on and take time, get maybe another hobby and stuff, because I mean, I can I feel like in points in my career I've been a probably too into it and not taking enough time off to reflect and things. And you just

kind of get into a treadmill, don't you. But but yeah, he's he has to be careful at times that he doesn't burn out. I would say that's more of the worry rather than actually working harder. And yeah, I like you said the benchmarks Tiger. I've never been on the inside of that obviously, and all seems a bit elusive, you know, from the outside looking in. But you hear lots of stories, but you have. As for Matt, he's yeah, he's he's incredible, how much he's dedicated to his to

his sports. I think a lot of people I think in in sports might go also engulf is. He would be an easy one for someone to kind of hone in on and say, Okay, I'm gonna try and model my game off of him. Um, but like all great champions and all great players, I mean I look at Matt and I think him him as being a complete outlier. I mean, he's not blessed with UM you know the size and the speed of another one of your students

that you work with, Thomas Peters. I mean, Thomas is very much in the DJ and Brooks and UM, you know this modern player to where they're six two six three, they've got speed to burn. They hit it miles um. Matt originally looked to me like he was more of a plotter, that he had to kind of plot his way around, plan his way around. UM. It would be easy to say, okay, I don't hit it very far. I'm gonna try and use Matt as as a as a gauge or as a as a blueprint. But how

many people could work that hard? I just don't think most people. I say, you didn't hit it miles right, and you weren't six to six three, you were Matt size. He said, Okay, I'm gonna try and follow us. I think most people would spend two weeks maximum month and say I can't work this hard, and just I physically can't work this hard to make the games that that he's been able to make. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I keep making the same joke. I was kind of given

David not Goliath. And yeah, I mean I remember him getting asked he went when he played Radical, his first Radical, which was probably one too early in the he tried to go and get the memorabilier on the Sunday when we all landed, and the guy behind the counter thought

he just played in the junior Radical companies. But but then, and I've mentioned to various people, are like Aaron Hills stands out for me, and and then the Masters, the COVID Masters in October when he played with he played with Brooks and JT that day, and and I I was just thinking, I can't compete with these guys on a on a sustaining level, no matter how straight he hits it. And and and a lot of the statistics people were saying, well, pick players who like Zach Johnson

to model yourself off, or Luke Donald. You know they Luke don't got to number one in the world. But then we decided to go down the like to try and plug the gap distance wise. And I've heard of Sashow through people like keV Duffy. Well, everybody says a sashow in the golfing stream that. So we contacted him, used him as a consultant to try and get him up to um, say, one eighteen cruising speed club speed, and that was two years ago and he's comfortably there now.

I mean he he sent me some TrackMan figures off the range last week. It was like one three club speed, which is like, it's amazing for him. And yeah, and I mean so before he started working with Sasha Mackenzie and you guys went down the speed training roup because I was going to ask you about that, because he hits the golf ball now a hell of a lot further than he used to hit it. Um, was that a conscious decision from you guys on the team. Was that his decision to say, okay, listen, you know I

play with great players. You know I hit it straight. I don't miss a lot of fairways, you don't miss a lot of greens. But to compete against people that have faster cars than I do, it doesn't matter that I'm getting around the track and not crashing it. Other guys might be crashing the car, but I'm not crashing it. But they're driving it faster than I am. Yeah, yeah, and and it's good these days in Gulf there's so much information that you can get through into a team.

And all the statistics guys were saying, well, if he can gain eight yards and retain his accuracy, you'll gain however many shots around and if he can gain ten, twelve, and it was he was kind of aiming at top ten in the world. It's not necessarily going for um number one at that point. I think he probably is now well, um, well, yeah, I think you kind of had to be realistic about it. And I just felt that he had to do something because of you know

what the game is like nowadays. It's every everybody's hitting at miles and the college kids that are coming through hitting even further than what it seems like, and it just felt like something that kind of had to happen if if we were to achieve the goals that he was like demanding us to get to, you know, he won't set it's not settling for second vessel or thirty

in the world. He was just he was aiming for the top And like to say, your guy, Gustin, I'm kind of seeing this athlete um six ft however tall he is, and I'm thinking, how how are we gonna get near him? So I'm not saying he's there yet. Obviously he's only won one major, and but he's a

dam side closer than what he was. And I feel like he could compete now, you know, on a on a more regular basis, rather than just like turning up at a course that suits you and putting well that week, and you know, I feel like it can be more of a sustained competition with the with the top guys. So pre um this this move to try and get

more speed that you went down. If you were in a practice round and it's part five and he crushes one, hits it straight out of the middle with the driver, and you're working with one of your guys, Thomas Peters, and he's in the in the group as well, and Thomas middles one with the driver and hits one in the middle of the at that time, a guy like Thomas Peters who hits the golf on a long way, how much further is he hitting it back? Then? Then, Matt,

is it fifteen yards? Twenty yards? Is thirty yards? I would say it would be between thirties to fifty yards further at that point. Um yeah, I feel like he was around a one thirteen guy. Now he can kind of push it to over one twenty like one two three, and he can cruise it. I mean they're getting data off the course now where he's at a one twenty, you know, cruizing, which is massive, um for him. Huge. So obviously everybody listening wants to hit the golf ball further.

I mean, everybody that's listening to this podcast would say, listen, give me seven, eight, nine, ten miles per hour in clubhead speed and increase in ball speed to hit the golf ball further. So dumb it down for us. How did he go about doing it? What were some, in your opinion, were some of the things that he worked on with Sacho to try and gain the speed. And when did you start to as to coach, watching this process happen, when did you kind of go, Okay, we're

onto something here. Well, originally, you see, if if if he'd have gone with the intent of achieving his absolute max potential in terms of speed, you could have altered his pattern. Um So, in simple terms, Matt's superpower his rotation. But he doesn't have a lot of UM leverage. Yeah, a lot of radical yeah exactly, So that would be

an area of potential. But I felt that it's so it's that trade off between well, I would still need to get fairways, but I need to gain length at the same time, and we we came up with a

compromised our guests, I would say a compromise. I think that I'm giving the impression that Sasha wanted to go down changing his pattern, but it was definitely talked about and between as we agreed on just doing kind of overweight and underweight training with Sacho's Stack system UM and maintaining his existing pattern because he was extremely accurate and

obviously you don't want to jeopardize that. So he m he went down that route and it I don't know how much you've used the stack system, but it comes with the app, and the apps kind of monitoring his progress a bit like a gym program, and so it's it's like things that people have done before, but I'd say it's it's a little bit more prescriptive and it kind of molds with you as you start kind of making games. And the spect of the STACK system is

heavy training and light training. Yeah, and regards to the mixture of YAH rewards too weighted clots. Yeah, so it's it's obviously a shaft with weights at the end that you can put not many weights on. It would be lighter than your than you drive away and you can put you can stack it with lots of weight and it'll be heavier. And yeah, that that's what he started doing. And he started getting organic swing changes, like back on the byproducts of actually doing it, which came with its challenges.

Um good good to swing changes that kind of came organically and um not some good ones. So yeah, it did come with its challenges, that's for sure. And it flared up fit you know, physio issues in his neck, so's he's training. Matt Roberts was having to kind of manage those all the time. And then when you when you first start doing it, it gets kind of like package to you saying, well, it's not it's not a driver.

You're not trying to get a fairway or a golf or you're just trying to swing that rip this thing as hard as you possibly can. Well in obviously things start like transferring through. So he'd come on the range and he's swings that it would start altering. So we we basically tried to make it as as accurate as possible while still like hitting it as hard as you

possibly can. But but yeah, I think it's been portrayed in a in a light that it's dead easy and you just start doing this and then and then, And it wasn't like that. It was definitely challenging at times. The obviously it's it's great, but um, but yeah, he he needed monitory. Yeah, I mean, I think people when you are someone like Matt where your your game has been built and designed around accuracy, um, hitting a lot of fairways, hitting a lot of greens. I mean that was,

in my opinion, that was Matt's calling card. When you all of a sudden take the car that he's driving and just start driving it faster, there is an element of losing control of that because now swinging the golf club faster. I've talked to Dave Phillips and Greg Rose out at the title of Performance Institute. I think it was Cameron Trengali that went out in Cameron Cam's made some big gains in in distance and speed and picked

up a lot of club that's it. Hits the golf ball up further now, and they brought him out and he said, listen, I want to come out. I want to hit the golf ball further. What are some things that I can do in the gym and exercise and stuff like that. And Greg Ros said to him, well, have you ever thought about swinging the golf club faster? Basically driving the car faster? And I'm a big, a

big f one guy. You know. I think everybody watches Drive to Survive now, but there's always that scene where the rookie driver, the the the engineers are going, you gotta go faster, you got to drive the car faster, and they're going, I'm trying to drive the car faster. And then there's those drivers that the all the team

principles say, we like him because he's fast. So when you are trying to I mean, it's it's a I think what people don't understand about what Matt's done is when your entire career in life is dedicated in golf, hitting fairways and greens. Two, then with the driver stand up, because we've watched Bryson do that. I mean Bryson a lot of times I've talked to Bryson about it. I've had him on the pod before to where we watched him do these driver drills on the driving range at Majors.

He's not even looking where the golf balls going. He's just making swings and looking at what the numbers are. And so I don't think people realize how huge of a shift that is for someone with kind of the building the body that Matt has to get to that point to say Okay, I have to be able to swing with reckless abandon to get the speed. Yeah, And we weren't as brave as that, because I would say Bryson has not only done watch maps done it, He's also at the you know, the courage to like change

has changed quite noticeably on over over the years. And like you say it, it does take some bravery to do that. We weren't brave enough to kind of go as much as that, but we we feel happy with where we're where we're at. And they says he's that balance is difficult to strike during the telecaust and during the the U s Open. I mean there were times, I mean Will Salatorius is not George. I mean he

can move it. I mean he can shift it. And there were some holes out there to where I mean Fits he is just ripping it by him, and I think that is also wouldn't you agree that is a huge mental validation for for Matt in tournament in a major championship on the US Open golf course, where you know if you hit it in the rough, it's going

to be penal to be able to stand up. You're playing against somebody kind of going head to head to be able to stand up and and take driver out where you both know you're gonna need to hit driver and then you bomb one past it. I mean the bombers do that all the time. Bryson does that a lot, Brooks DJ, all the big hitters, Tony Fine. Now, I mean these guys are used to hitting it past year. But when when when Fits gets up and rips one past year. It's also kind of I'm here, you know

I can hit it straighter than you can. I can. You know I can hit my you know, five iron probably straighter than you can hit a wedge, but I just blew it past. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I remember watching him in the U s Amitar and he was he was playing a guy called Oliver Goss. He was a start. Yeah, and he I just remember Fits being like fifty behind him and like knocking five woods in to six ft or something all the way around. But yeah, he's so he's he's always been kind of lethal with

his longest, longer part of his set. But when he when you then kind of get somewhere near him and that never mind like level with him, you just think, well, you could really do some damage now, and and yeah, it's definitely Uh. I don't think he'd admit it, but I think it's good for his ego. Um, the work that he's done with our boys, Phil Kenyan, same approach. Right. I watched those two, I watched the drills. I watched

all of the things that that he does. Does he challenge you guys on the team to come up with ways to challenge him with different ideas, different drills, different kind of ways of doing things or or is all of that kind of his idea. Does he come up with all of the plans and the drills or is it a very collaborative effort, because I mean, Fits, he's

like a tennis player. I mean he's got he's got you, he's got Pete, he's got filled with putting, he's got his stats guy, he's got a trainer, he's got all of this team around him. Um does he is it all self motivated from him? How much does he look from you as as a coach to try and say, hey, listen, this is the direction I think we should go. Um, do you guys meet collaboratively a lot? Because as an outsider looking in, I would imagine I might be wrong, but it seems to me like there's a lot of

collaboration between your crew. Yeah. I mean, I've worked with a lot of a lot of players. Now I guess and that this is the It's the best team that I've ever worked. And I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's definitely the best one I've ever worked. And we all get on and and there is where we have regular kind of three meetings a year where we have a formal sit down away from golf tournaments, and then

all this information gets thrown in the room. And then Yeah, in answer to your question, Matt obviously is there looking at the data himself and and saying, right, we need to improve approach play, what we're gonna do. We're all kind of bouncing ideas off each other, or he might be struggling with left or right cuts, or needs to gain length or what what whatever it might be. And yeah, he's he's challenged. He's really he's great to work with.

He never gives you any you know what, but he definitely challenges you because because he's he's had this marginal gains approach. So it'll look at what areas very specifically, what areas need to get better and goes and then kind of puts it back to me Phil his train of mAbs, Sasha, what whoever? And said how we going

to do it? And and I'll be totally frank that there was time specifically then back in kind of eighteen nineteen where I'm kind of thinking to myself as a coach, I'm thinking, well, he's kind of he's kind of maxing out here and uh, and but he's still going to keep challenging me. So he's definitely challenged me because I was kind of thinking we might be reaching our limit. And he's proven me. He's proved me wrong his entire career, I'll be honest, and continues to do so. And he's

great and I have my own massively for it. One of the members on his team. Who I think has been a huge addition, Um, one of the best caddies I think of all time and in the world, Billy Foster. Um the role that Billy has played with Matt, because I mean it was an odd one right, Billy Foster could literally carry for anybody. I mean, it wasn't anybody

in professional golf that wouldn't take Billy Foster on the back. Um. You know when when when Stevie Williams couldn't carry in a President's Cup, I mean, who's tiger call it calls Billy Foster. I mean he's He's He's in the Caddy Hall of Fame. For me, how big of a role do you think, um, Billy has played in his success in development? And what do you feel like Billy brings to the team and brings to Matt as a player?

I think, Um, the I think the reason he ended up with Matt in the first place was I think Billy could see what we could see in him and that he's never he's all, he's never been scared, and he was in Europe. He was like a prolific winner fairly early, Um, and you could see he didn't get stage fright at all and he would go for the juggular when he when he got the chance in Europe and then he I think Billy could see that in

him and that attracted him. You know, a young a young player as well, you know, someone who's enthusiastic and and what Billy brings to and I think he's got Matt's got a lot of respect for him, obviously his experience and Billy's for me, is a great psychologist. He's just never studied it. He can read, He reads a room perfectly. He knows when to give the slap around the face, he knows when to crack the joke. He knows when to say, you're making it too comfortable, complicated.

It's just a seven iron map, you know. He and you you kind of his natural disposition along with all his experience and the respect Maps got for him. And he's just he's been massive, massive in his in his a sense. So what the obvious question when anybody wins their first major championship is you know, how many do you think he could win? Um? How far and high do you think he can go? Well, I think he's asking himself the same questions now because he's kind of

I think he feels like he's climbed Everest. The dream he's genuinely kind of a dream has come true for him, and now he's kind the dost sell and he's thinking, right, what should I go for now? Then? Um? And I think I think, being honest, he might he might have appreciate a bit more time off to just kind of chill out and gather himself a bit more. But you know that nature of the tour and it never stops

until still Christmas. Really, so yeah, I think he could definitely win more majors, especially now with what we've talked about with him being longer and things. I always felt this sounded like a know it all. I always felt the US Open was the major that he had the most chances chance of winning. I could definitely see winning more of those. Um And I think he got he

got bandoned about the press conference that Fouldo at six. So, I mean it's a lofty goal, but you just you know, it's like you just keep plugging away and if you

if you keep knocking them off, then that would be great. Well, well, I think if you talk to everyone that's won a major and then it's gone on to win another one, They always said, the hardest one to win is the first one, because if you get an opportunity to win another one, that window, that door, that room that you're in feels a lot more comfortable, and you you kind of can read the room and say, listen, if I can just hang around here, I don't have to shoot

sixty six today. You know I've I've won one of these before by just kind of great determination and all that. If if I you give me a chance on the back nine on Sunday, I'm not gonna make a lot of mistakes. And maybe I remember, and I've told the story a million times. Um Eager Woods told Adam Scott, Hey, this is like two thousand and one at the p g A in Atlanta. He said, listen, just learn how to hang around. Hang around, because some weeks you're gonna

play great and not win. In some weeks you're not going to play that great and and other people are gonna win. And I remember, Adam, you've still played in Europe at the times he was gonna Tiger like he's you know, speaking French, and he said, trust me, the ones that are the most fun, or when you shoot

one under and everybody else screws it up. He's like, trust me, those are the ones where you take care of the par fives and you're in the last group and you shoot one two under and everybody else is trying to shoot sixty four to beat you, and they make all the mistakes and you just kind of play a good round of golf and you kind of go kissed the trophy and let everybody else kind of throw up. Well.

I think although Matt didn't win the USPG, I felt like he kind of learned a bit of that lesson there because he he left the course that day and I used to think used thinking to himself, well I didn't have my best stuff today and I still nearly nearly got into a playoff anyway. Um. And I think he learned a lot from that. I mean, do you think that experience at the p G a um, you know, in one of the last groups. Um. I mean I

I was watching it. When I was watching it, and I was kind of like, I was like that kind of golf course, you know, the tough conditions, the winds, the weather changed and everything, and I'm thinking to myself, I can see fifty pulling this off on Sunday because I mean it just looked like, you know, it was like a golf course to where it's kind of fiddley. There were like some weird kind of angles and stuff.

And because he hits it so straight and because he he hits I mean, that's the thing I've always been impressed by Matt When I said it earlier, guys out drive him and they're hitting wedges. He's at the six iron, but he's gonnaknock six iron. I mean, he's gonna hit it on a rope. He's gonna hit it as good

as most people are hitting wentest. So I know it's hard to look backwards, but do you think being so close and being really really in the mix on Sunday, I mean everybody says, hey, you know I played good that week. Yeah, but I mean, I mean he was, He was right there on Sunday in a major. Do you think that that played a massive, massive role By the time you guys get to Brookline to where weekend on on on, on a big golf course in an Open,

US Open, he maybe felt a little bit more comfortable. Yeah, million cent and not obviously there was the Brookline thing, which I think helps his comfort levels, But definitely what happened at USPGA. I would say that definitely played a factor in it, because it was one of those sundays at USPG where he a bad shot off the first

that that that's never great, is it? And and and then you kind of felt he was out of it around the turn, and then he chipped in on fourteen, and then he was like right, well, right back in it, and everybody was kind of dropping away, like say um, and then it appalled shot in seventeen and the chip was afoot a foot from being really good on seventeen, so it was deflating that. But I think he felt that whenever it's not going right for him, he tends

to like chase it too much. It's not that he's got nervous per se, but he's too desperate to get it back and sometimes compounds that error. And I think that's that's what he felt after USPG, And I think in us Open he was just going to be like cool, trying to be cool as I was just obviously the cliche's ring true. Just you know, stick to what you're

doing each other time, etcetera, etcetera, and unfortunately didn't. He didn't really meet well he did he three putt at eleven and that that was a little bit um not great. But I think he if he just said afterwards, that is so out to win because he felt right until the end. It's just you felt like it could it could alter it. Like like as you you're on I know about Tiger, people do things on the back nine

that you're not expect you now much. I think when you watch, you know fits you have that opportunity, it's easy to look at that and go, okay, well they didn't get it done. Um, you know, it just it just wasn't. I don't. I don't think people, the fans and and a lot of the journalists that are easy. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon and beat these guys up when they have opportunities. Okay, well you know it didn't play great on Sunday and all this stuff.

They don't understand how hard it is to win not only tournaments, but there's four majors a year, right, that's it, four tournaments a year. These the majors are so difficult to win. Yeah, I mean, you know, I agree with you. I think they quick to get on people's backs, and I mean I get it. You've got to write story. You've got to you know, tell it as you see it.

But it is, Um, there's so good on there that there's so much strength in depth, and we know there's a bit more of a random nature, like you saying Bolt just wins every race than they but he's generally speaking not like that, is it apart from obviously Tiger and it's it's hard to dominate, I would say. So you're one of the players that are you're one of the coaches now that you in your time is going

to be all over the place. You've got Fitsy on the PGA tour, You've got you know, Thomas Peters, m Kellen shank Win, who just one of the European Tour, Um, Hendrick Stenson's just going to the Live tour, who just one recently. Um, are there three of you, Mike or You're gonna be able to kind of put yourself in all of these different places that you need to be. I've got no idea how I'm going to do it, I'll be honest. Cloda we were talking about just before

we came. Only Yeah, it's posing me a problem at the moment, which is a great problem to have. Done, get me wrong, but yeah, the nature of the golf will At the moment you've almost got two two tours within the PGA Tour, you know, the kind of the the Premium Tour and the Superstar schedule. Yeah, and then the one just underneath it, and then you've got obviously the the Live Tour and then and then Europe as well. So yeah, I don't know how I'm going to do

it and stay married. To be honest, Um, I was have to live about in Bedminster. I think one of the frustrating things for me about um all of the golf that's being played on on the Live Tour is um, the golf is being completely overshadowed by what people think of the fifty four holes, what people think of the team aspect, what people think of the shotguns star. I

mean I was there for three rounds. I mean Hendrick plays assof I mean, he played as good a golf as I've seen Hendrick play in a really really long time. You've been working with Henrik now again. You you know, Henrick bounces around. Sometimes you're in, sometimes you're out, you're back in. He gets to win. Um, I thought it was a really really big win for his career enough, excluding all the live bullshit, right, you know, all the stuff the writer. I thought from a playing standpoint, I

thought it was a really important win for Hendrick. And I think it reminded everybody, certainly that aren't blinded by all the lib drama. Reminded everybody just how damn good Hendrick is when he's playing the way he plays. Yeah, certainly in the first round, I think he said that it was that round of golf was the best he's played in quite some time. And and and yeah, I think I do you think he was wobbling a bit because your man was chasing him down pretty hard, I think.

But obviously he's never had a problem winning. And obviously Henry's associated with uh he worked with Pete for twenty years and most of his successes is that is between them too. But me and him had just had a crap that this year and a bit of a change for Henrick. And and yeah, I think obviously there's a lot of adversity around it at all, and it's not very com frombat. I think he was once once he

kind of the rider cup Captus had gone. I think it was almost like he was could just dedicate himself just to playing golf and and concentrating on trying to beat dusting and Matt wolf has. It turned out was what kind of work are you working on with Henrick? Is it old stuff? Is it new staff? Is it

repackaged star of Uh? Personally, when I started, I did a bit of kind of reconnaissance on and I found one particular swing that was on YouTube that I felt was as good as anything that he'd ever had from back um it was when he he was back in like two thousand and even ten. There was this one three would swing from TPC and I've kind of used that as a bit of a template, um and and and tried to basically mimic that. Obviously Henry's forty six wouldn't.

We're just trying to get him back to two places he's been before and um just be like on a you know, so he's clear on what he's doing it. But I particularly like that swinger. I've just basically tried to copy that. And obviously I didn't coach him for the lion share of his career, but I knew a lot of what what he was doing and and how Pete was teaching him and how and his feelings and things and that I think. Um, so yeah, I've got a good working knowledge of Hendrick before I started, and

I'm just a different voice really doing similar things. Yeah, not um similar things. One of the other students you work with certainly one of my favorite people in golf. I love everything about the barn Rat here aftery barn Rat. Um, you couldn't pick a professional golfer in two that is not a two prototype golfer. I mean the body, the golf swing, the nine. I don't know if he's still smoking nine thousand cigarettes today, but I mean he could smoke cigarettes. He could, he could have he could be

finishing one and already lit another one. He's kind of a throwback, but he has a very unique kind of tempo rhythm. It's certainly not a swing that anybody in two is posting on youtubeers what they believe is the golf swing. But I love how he swings the golf club. I love the rhythm in the temple. What's what's the barn Rat like to work with? What are some of the keys that that he does that makes all of

that so functional? Uh, I'll be honest with you, I don't really talk to him that much about obviously is his idiosyncrasies and mainly talk and mainly talk to him about how to He's obsessed with hitting fade. He associates all the best golf with Team Fade all the time, and as you know, it's a very quirky action. He nearly hits his right shoulder with a shaft on the way down and has done in practice a couple of

times and have to fade it from there. So but but yeah, I mainly talk to him about more kind of shots and what delivery positions and you're in to hit certain shots and and stop him going down blind alleys. Really but Cardex like one of them. He's great, great person, really really great person. And he's had a really rough rider. I don't know if you remember that shot that he hit Augusta where he fell out. He had to hook it around the tree, fell over backwards. He kind of

tore his a c L at that time. But he's made worse for him because he had a car accident when his kid when he was a kid, and he's got no internal rotation. He's right hip and he's knee knocked as well, so that injury for him was like really really bad for him to have, and it he was and when then he got wrapped up in COVID and does he go back home. He tried to play through it a bit and it's just kind of he's had a real real rough time over the last few years.

So I've got everything cross for him that that he can get through corn very um finals this this these three weeks. He's a great, great blow. I mean, he's one of the true characters I think in in in professional golf, because I mean, there isn't anybody modeling themselves off of him, right, He's one of the means he's become one of the best players in the world, but no one is looking at the way that he does things and go, Okay, that's that's what I'm going to do.

But I think he has a lot of things in his golf swing that that people should look at and should try and emulate. The fact that, you know, the way that he turns, the way that he has that even though like you said, the club at times can get really really narrow on the down swing, but when he's playing his best, you're like, it looks like, I mean, if there's the old kind of old school, you know, drop it in the slot, you know all these terms

that a lot a lot of people use anymore. I mean, he's kind of like the poster child for like big turn, drop it and then just yeah, and he's so impressed when he's really on, he's very very impressive. He's very very talented. UM, great your game and and a great iron player. There's just like frozen ropes, like one after the other when he when he's on, and like I saying,

he's not one for the Texas. But I mean, I always remember when I first came out and toil, which is it's actually quite a long time ago now, and you kind of come out with all the textbooks, tuition and as a foundation, and then you see people like Jeeve Milk is sing. I remember when I first came out and you and you see seeing me these unbelievable

like pressure cuts. It's going miles and you're like, well, hang on a minute, that's not And yeah, I love those swings more than the I love looking at and think, well, how does that one work? Well, my it's funny. My dad's youngest brother, Billy, who I've had on the podcast, we talked about this, but there was a time and when you know, my dad was working with Tiger and Adam Scott and you know, the early two thousands. And

Billy said, you know what I find really amazing. You said, everybody, we're trying to get everybody to look like Tiger and Adam Scott right now, right we're trying to have you know, this perfect position at the top the face this way.

But Billy said, you know, if you look at two of the greatest ball strikers of all time, you know, you to take a guy like Hail Irwin who was shut took it inside, came over it and and hit Fate, so, you know, really inside, and then whipped around, and then Trevino wide open, take it way outside, drop it under. And he said, you know guys like Bruce Litzky, guys like you know, Raymond Floyd, who were prolific ball strikers. He's like, why doesn't any why don't we teach people

to swing like that. We're all trying to teach people to have these perfect golf swings. Do you think that in two now with you mentioned Matt Wolfe, You've got guys like Kid Deck, you know, guys like dj Um. We are seeing almost a throwback. I mean Scottie Scheffler Um. You know, if you look at the top ten in the world right now, you know, yes, Rory's got a beautiful golf swing, but you know, justin Thomas is a little bit of a throwback to where the arms are

super super up, he's not flat. Well, but do you think that it's great that we have these kind of golf swing outliers so that people can remember Listen, it's not about having a perfect position at the top of the golf swing. Golf is about repetition. Can you repeat the move? Is your move functional? And can you transfer

that on a regular basis? Yeah, I think. I think my personal view is I think there's certain areas of a golf swing that you kind of have to be within a certain like parameters obviously around around the ball really, but that then obviously there's different ways of getting there, and I think I personally like figuring the quirky ones out and and kind of from an intellectual point of view,

I I like that. And and the more I think the golf teaching industry as a whole, as a collective is so much, so much knowledge in depth now with the all YouTube podcast, better technology and stuff, but I still love going. Lee Travino is one of my favorite golfing. Um. Yeah, that's one of my personal favorites. And I love looking at all things like that, and like I keep saying, we'll figure out how how they were really, Um, I found the conventional ones boring, as nice as they are

and as great as the performer find them boring. It'd be a disservice to talk to you about your career in UM golf instruction without talking about someone that has played in an enormous UM educational mentoring role in your life. He's one of the best golf instructors in the world and has worked with so many great players. Pete Cowen Um talk about the influence that Pete. I don't know

if you will remember this, but I can remember. I can't remember what Open Championship it was, but it was when I was living in Europe, so it's got to be mid two thousand's. I was on the titleist van. This is before Pete went to Callaway, was wearing the titles hat and he came over to see Jonathan loose Moore and I and Um, he brought you along and he was like, this is a young kid that's working for me named Mike Walker, and you were like, hey, how's it going? You know, wish one was that way?

Was that I can't remember, but he brought you too. I don't know if it was maybe brought you to a time I want to say, Um, I want to say it was a major and you were just there. It was he was on the weekend. It was just you were just there kind of absorbing and you know, I interduce you. Um. You know Pete is a iconic UM monster figure and golf instruction. Um. What roles he played in your career and in your life? Yeah, I

mean obviously a massive one. Originally went for lessons with him when I was a kid UM and then I when I left the game because I realized I wasn't good enough, and when studied at university, was working in finance and was wishing away five days out of seven. So I reconnected with Pete. And it wasn't actually to get a job. I read I booked a lesson in invert commas and and I actually turned up and I said, I'm not really here for a lesson that I'm just

kind of want to pick your brains. I don't know whether I could get back into golf somehow management rules, and never considered golf coaching at all. And he said to me that day, He's like, where you could coach? Standing on your head, um, He said, you could go to Dubai tomorrow and work at one of my academies,

but you're not PG qualified. So I was like, right, Obviously he was already because in the time I had left Universe, I had left being coaxed by him at seventeen and and me coming back kind of eight years later when I graduated and I was working in finance. He'd had he was already starting to have success, but he had a lot of success in that time with in the early two thousands, with World and everybody else. Yeah, So I kind of left that and I was thinking

at the time, well, this is a great opportunity. And eight years before I thought, well, I don't if I'm not going to be a goal for, you know, playing for a living, then I'm just going to go to university because I'm not selling Mars bars in appro shop. So eight years later then I'm selling Mars Bars an approach shop at peach Range in in Rotherham and and yeah,

things just progressed from there. And obviously we we've got a parallel scenario there where you kind of going up up the career law do you teach, You start to teach better players, you start to teach on tour and things, and that exposure to a mentor as you kind of going through that early part of your career. And we both know how difficult it can be at times, and to have somebody to kind of, you know, bounce things off often makes me think that the guys who say,

Mark Blackburn, for example, you've never had that. I often wonder what it was like for them, because it's definitely a massive, massive help. I'm sure you'd agree with me. I mean Phil Kenyon, as we both know he had a mentor in how Old Swash And yeah, I mean I I sure as I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if I didn't have my father as a mentor and as as someone that I could look up to and um a bounce ideas off. Yeah, and I think we have that in common, so I wouldn't be doing

what I'm doing either. So yeah, massive and certainly, uh at the start, it's just having access to someone as you're learning along the way, and you can ask the questions as they pop up, rather than booking a lesson and going asking every month. You know, so, and um, yeah, I started. He was struggling to juggle tour life and his range at the same time, so that was proving difficult.

I started running the range and then I was I was living in you no lessons all the time, and some of the people that he was teaching had been in my England squad, like Oliver Wilson, Richard Finch at the time and people like that, And I started I kind of go into events and um, things just kind of led on from there really and the rest of this history Sovio sweep well. Um. For a long time, I think a lot of people saw you as Pete's number two, right, because you guys worked with a lot

of players together. I went through that with my father. I've I've been lucky enough to work with a lot of the guys that my dad worked with that my dad maybe didn't have time to work with because he was juggling so many people like Pete. But I think Mike, you've done an amazing job at becoming Mike Walker as

opposed to Pete Cowen's number two. And I don't think people realize, um, how hard that is, because when you do have a mentor who is so big, UM, whose shadow is so long, um, that it's it's hard to get out of that. And I I just can't tell you how happy I am for you and how proud I am for you because you've stepped out of that shadow and you've kind of worked, and you've put the

time him in and put the hours in. And I think, I mean I I certainly it's been a long time now since I've ever thought of you as peach number two. And I think your career and the things that you've done and the things that you're doing, and all the things that you will do, um, you will stand you know, on your own two feet and go on to continue to do great things. Yeah. I mean, like I say,

I wouldn't behave like without him. And ultimately, I guess you become an adult and in in if that's the right word for it, but you become I guess your own man and you obviously were still were still linked. But I think possibly people I don't know you to be able to say better than me, I think possibly people do see me as a bit more of a person in my own right rather than a number two now and um, but obviously I wouldn't wun't be in

that position without him. So it's, um, it's Laura. I've never said this to you, but I think, just to mess with Pete, I think you should spend an entire month ontour just wearing all black, just going head to toe all black the way Pete does, and just see if he notices, right, to see if he goes, wait a minute, you were in black again today, and just act like it's nothing, just going on as something wrong.

And then he sees you the following day and you're wearing black, And they sees you the next day and you're wearing black. I could wear all white. Oh that ye notice, I think he knows that one. Um. Lastly, Danny Willet making the making the call coming back into

the Fall. Yeah, yeah, I've been started working with him about well, I don't know about month, just before they open and yeah, it's a it's been a while, and it's I've always gotten great with Dan and it's um, it's I've forgotten some of his videos scene becauses that have been reminded of now he's very very particular, and another one with the massive work ethics befair who doesn't really need to leave many stones on turn. But but yeah,

we'll see how it goes this time. Yeah, it's always fun when they come back, right, Yeah, it's it is, Yeah, it's it's strange. But was it a situation that that you saw him in person or did you get the phone that your phone ring and you're like, and whoever you're with, your like you showed to your wife, you're like, and that it was more? Um, Yeah, so he kind of him and Sean had agreed to part ways, and then he sent me a couple of videos and just

asked me my opinion. At first the old, the old, the old, the tour player, booty car, it's the booty call.

Did he did he say, hey, yo, you are it's the only booty calls again that's anyway, So yeah, last for my opinion, and then I kind of get told him what I thought, and and then the next few days it was like video after video after video up the video and I was like, oh now I remember, okay, so well now he's he's he's got some similar characteristipes to Matt in that sense, he would he works hard,

has done really hard, count fall in flat. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing um that partnership work again because you guys had a tremendous amount of success. Listen. UM, hopefully I'll get back on the PGA tour and you'll get you'll spend more time on the live so we can actually do our usual to where we stand around and wait for tour players. He comes to coffee on our hand and fitch and moan and complain about how

bad everything is. Yeah, first world problems, right, first world problems. Mike, congrats and all your success. It's been a hell of the year for you, and uh, I think it's uh, it's just just the beginning. I appreciate it and thanks

for having me on. So that was Mike Walker. And as I said at the beginning of the show, my not be a household name to a lot of golf fans, are a lot of listeners, but for those of us in the instruction business, UM definitely someone that um everybody knows and everyone knows his work and UM really some good stuff on the work that he has done with Matt Fitzpatrick. Ums it's I think it's one of the best stories of the year, and Mike had a huge part in that. So really glad that he took the

time to talk to us. So we put questions out this week. UM obviously lots of questions about UM Live. I was at the tournament last week. DJ finally getting win on the Live Tour. UM listen, it was exciting. UM. I think anybody that watched it, UM at the last half hour forty five minutes, didn't, you know, make you interested? Then I think there's something wrong with you. Because the golf was fantastic. I mean, some unbelievable shots and uh, it was a hell of a finish. I think it

was a win that DJ needed. UM. It wouldn't matter on which tour it was. UM. He hadn't won in quite a while, and it was nice to see him get a win. UM. So that was good. Lots of people asking UM. You know, I get tons of questions about practice, UM, you know, how players practice, what's the best way to practice? And I think the cool thing when when I get to go out to UM Tour events and look at how players interact with their caddies

and everybody is so so different. Um, you know. I I think when we look at players specifically from a putting standpoint, you'll go to a putting green at a tour event and you will see all kinds of different You'll see some players who who use no gadgets, who use no chalk lines, who don't have any drills, who don't have any stations built up, that are just kind

of more like field guys. And then you'll see the guys, the putting guys like like sil kenyan Um who we've had on the podcast before, UM working specifically with his guys on certain things. And then you'll have players um, you know, some times to take up half the driving range, you know, going through whatever kind of drills that that they do. From a practice standpoint, when you go to the driving range, I think it's it's the same thing.

You'll see players working with their coaches. UM. You know, I've sat and watched Cameron McCormick, who we've had on the podcast, work with with Jordan's I mean, they're always working with a launch monitor. They're they're always working on, you know a lot of different things. Um. DJ works with launch monitors, but he doesn't really do anything with

them other than just look at the Carrey distance. UM So when I think when you are trying to practice as a player, you want to try and figure out what area you're deficient in, what area you feel like you can make gains. And because I think a lot of players go to the practice range regardless of what their handicap level is, regardless of what scores their shooting, whether they're good players, whether they're mid handicapped players. UM, I think you want to try and look at the

areas of your game where you can make gains. And that's why I think it's really important, um when you are playing, to take notes, to take notes on what you're doing, to take notes on you know, how many fairways you're hitting, how many greens you're hitting, um if you're missing greens, how much you're getting up and down, what you're what you're sand games like, what your puttings like, So that when you come back to the driving range

and and have your practice sessions, you can say to yourself, Okay, listen, I drove it really good the other day, or my iron game was really good the other day, So I don't really need to stand here and work on that. Let me go ahead and work on the areas of my game where I feel like I can make some gains where I am losing strokes on the golf course.

So when you are trying to figure out a practice routine, UM, to me, in an ideal world, if you're trying to break par for the first time, if you're trying to break eight for the first time, if you're trying to break a hundred for the first time, UM, you need to be spending. And I've talked about this before. I think you need to be spending UM at least half your time on both And in an ideal world, you probably want to be spending maybe sixty on short game

as opposed to UM just all this time on long game. UH. There will be a lot of times where we'll go to the driving range after a round of golf and a player, UM, if they've hit it really well and they didn't feel like they putted well, they won't even go to the range, so just go straight to the putting green. UM. There's times where players felt like they putted pretty good and they won't even go to the putting green and they'll just go straight to the range.

But I do think having a very very kind of good idea of what are the areas of your game that you can improve, because I think so many players they're just trying to work on, you know, a bunch of different stuff because that's what they think they're supposed to do. But when you play, you know, look at what your problem is on the golf course, because that's where it matters the most. What you're doing on the

golf course should be influencing what you're practicing. And I think so many players are constantly in practice mode and they don't really kind of think about the rounds of golf that they play on the golf course as the

thing that they should be focusing on. And and it's almost like I have players that that that I work with that are you know, they're they're just regular golfers, the handicappers, and you ask them about what they're working on, and they'll tell you all the stuff that they're working on in the driving range and in their practice sessions.

But when you talk to them about what's actually going on on the golf course, sometimes there's a disconnect there between what they're trying to work on, you know, on the driving range, because it's it's that thing and I know I've talked about this before on the pod um players can get so practice centric, just so much in the practice mode that they forget what they're doing on

the golf course is the most important. And work your way backwards from the golf course, work your way backwards from playing golf, and then saying, Okay, what are the areas that I need to work on, and then kind of get your practice schedule, get your practice sessions, and and go from there. Um. But practicing smarter. Um. If you're a great putter, you don't need to spend all of your time putting. I think a lot of times players tend to practice what they're good at and not

practice what they're not good at. And the best players of the world that I'm lucky enough to be around, they're always trying to improve their weaknesses and not necessarily work so much on their strengths. And I mean DJ a great example. Last week. DJ has been in a really good vein of form in the last you know, three or four tournaments, you know, the Portland Tournament, the Live Tournament, he had a chance to win that one,

the Open Championship. He was in the hunt on the back nine on Sunday, had a chance to win that one, had a chance to win the live event at Bedminster, and then one last week in Boston. But when we were looking at what we we spent a lot of time on his putting because I I kind of think that if if DJ puts at all, he would have had a better chance at at picking victories. So we're spending a lot of time right now on putting, and

I think it really really panned out. I mean, I think the way DJ putted over the weekend, UM is some of the best putting he's had in a while. UM. We don't stand on the driving range and hit a lot of drivers, UM, because he's a good he's a good driver with the golf ball, and right now he is really driving the ball well. So the constant theme of looking at the areas that that you need to practice and focusing on those and and and work on your strengths as opposed to just kind of grinding out,

UM constantly on what you are good at. UM. So the POD's back. I want to thank everyone for listening. We've got some really cool guests coming up. I think we've got some good guests being lined up. UM. I'm going to do my best to try and get as many different guests from as many different parts of golf as possible. Um blasting I want this podcast to do is just going to be to turn into a constant debate on the PGA Tour and Live because you know

that's certainly going to get old um for everybody listen. Thing. But it's a topic that we're gonna have to continue to discuss and and people that are in the golf space will have their opinions. I'll do my best to try and and and get those opinions out, whether they are people on the PGA Tour, whether the people that are playing on Live and everybody around engulf. So um that's my goal and uh hopefully we can keep having great guests. But thanks everyone for listening. Son of A

which comes to every Wednesday. We will see you next week.