It's the son of a bunch of podcasts. We come to you every Wednesday. This week talking about last week's Ryder Cup with a major champion, someone that's been on three Ryder Cup teams, Justin Leonard. He was doing TV last week for NBC Golf Channel, so I wanted to kind of get his views on everything, and I think he's got some great things to talk about, and we take a deep dive into kind of everything that happened, not only on the European side last week, but on
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Check it out. My guest today, Justin Leonard. Justin, You've done basically everything you can possibly do in the game of golf. You won an NCAA Individual Champion, USAM Champ, Players Champ, Major champion, played on three Ryder Cups. So who better to talk to about the absolute European beatdown? And you were doing commentary TV at in Rome. You've had a couple of days to kind of process it. What the hell if you're on the American side, what the hell happened in Rome?
Well, to me, it looked like, you know, it looked like a bunch of the guys hadn't played in a while. It looked like there was rust, and sure enough they hadn't. I mean, you had nine guys that didn't play a tournament for five weeks. And I understand, coming auth of fetics, cut playoffs and all that, it's nice to have a little bit of a break. You know. Roy mcilray and John Rahm had the same schedule and yet they fit
in the Irish Open the BMW. Uh. It just it really looked like it wasn't until Friday morning or afternoon when the US side was actually really ready to play. You know, Max Hoomer played fortinet, Brooks played. The week before the Ryder Cup in Chicago, Justin Thomas played fortinet. You know, other than you know, book Brooks and Scotty's kind of you know performance and that that uh four ball session. You know, I think Brooks played okay, uh
mix Homa probably was the star of the US side. Uh, he played great, and Justin Thomas played, you know, much better than he was leading into it. So I think maybe a little bit ill prepared. I think, you know, you could say that that the cap I mean the captain's picks did not have a good record. I think it was four wins, twelve losses and a few times. You know, when you have six captains picks, uh, those
guys have to perform. You know. You look at at Rory, John Rahm, Victor Hobland, kind of the three stars for the European side. Those guys, somebody, I think you told me yesterday they won ten or ten and a half points.
Yeah, Rory goes Rory goes four to one, and oh, John Rahm goes two, oh and two, and Vic goes three to one and one. I did a preview of the of the Ryder Cup last week and I said that one of the things that I think the Europeans historically Justin have done better in the last thirty years in the US and the Ryder Cup is they're stars. They get points and a lot of points from their superstars. Right, so you've got Rory getting four points, You've got John
Rahm getting two points, you got big. They are the three horses, they are the three studs on that team. And Rory lost one match and Vic lost one match. Otherwise their three superstars dominate and really really show up for the Europeans that that seems to be a theme just In over the last thirty years. The last time the US won a rider Cup on foreign soil the Belfry in ninety three. You were on the ninety seven Ryder Cup team at Valderrama, Tiger's first one where Tom
Kite was the captain. Why do you think, Justin, and then you've been on two winning Ryder Cup teams Brookline, the Miracle at Brookline and then Valhalla when Zinger was the captain in two thousand and eight. Why do you think, having done it and watched it for thirty years, why does it why are we struggling so much away from home?
It's I think some of it, especially here the last you know, twenty eighteen in Paris and then in Rome last week. Being able to set up the golf course is a huge advantage with all the data and analytics. I mean it was a very similar setup I thought to Paris. Narrow fairways, really deep, rough, the greens weren't like icy, glassy fast, they were just good, and their
speed was around eleven on a step meter. They set the golf course up, I think to kind of take away the maybe the style of play that you see more in the US these days, which is hit driver down there as far as you can, because they don't deal with a lot of you know, four and six inch rough hit it down there as far as you get. You know, if it's in the fairway, great, if it's
not in the fairway, that's okay too. All the data suggests that, and I think that being able to set up the golf course where you have to hit the ball in the fairway, they you know, they also took a lot of wedges out. There weren't a lot of holes that were driver wedge or three wood wedge, the short holes that would have been played that way. They've moved the teas up even further to where now they're drivable. And so I think that's another advantage of the US.
They're used to hitting so many wedges that being able to control the golf course set it up the way they want to now. I think, you know, in a week or so leading up to it, the captains have no more say in it. But leading up to that point, and I'm sure you know Eduard and Molinari, who was an assistant vice captain on the European side, he's very
much in the analytics. I think he was. He was probably paramount and helping set up the golf course, analyzing both teams and saying, here's our strengths, here's you know, the American straints. Let's try and neutralize the other side as much as possible. Conversely, when you come to the States, you know, you look at the setup at Hazel Teine, very little rough hit it down there as far as
you can, whistling straits, very little rough. You know, pound it down there as much as you can, so having that and then, like you said, it's the blueprint's been there for the European side for a number of years. Before Hovland and Rohm and McElroy, it was Poulter, it was Westwood, it was Darren Clark. Before that, it was Monty Sevy, you know, just on and on, Bernhard Langer. So they've always had this really great, kind of top
heavy group. And then they're supporting players. You know, think back to like a Jamie Donaldson or a Javid Gilford or you know, this year, Bobby McIntyre and those things. You know, those guys they raise the level of their game to where it's not just the stars, those kind of supporting pieces that may not be involved. Every year, you know, they get a point and a half or those kind of things. And that's really truly the difference.
Every time the US gets beat, whether it's in the US or in Europe, there's always this kind of pick everything apart, try and figure out what went wrong. And one of the things that I think a lot of people think is they say that it means more to the Europeans than it does to the US. And I don't necessarily agree, but it does seem like they have this ability to raise their game in a way that maybe the US team doesn't. And what I mean by that is, I mean the running joke, and you've seen this.
If Sergio Garcia, if Tommy Fleet would, if some of these players putt Victor Hovlin, if Vic Putt's the way he putted last week, he should be winning majors every single year. Right, if you look at the way a guy like Sergio Garcia putted throughout his Ryder Cup career,
he should have more major championships than he does. And we were all talking that it just seems like the Europeans, for this one week, seemed to have raised their game to a completely different level that a lot of these players don't play on a regular basis.
Yeah, look at Ian Poulter. I mean, you know, yeah, he contended in some major championships and he won certainly more on the European tour than he did US. But I mean in the Ryder Cup, he turns into an absolute beast. And then you know, Scotti Scheffler, number one player in the world, has been in and around that number for the last two years. You know, really struggles and it's I can't tell you why that necessarily is. I don't think the Ryder Cup necessarily means more to
the Europeans than it does to the US. I think that, you know, every year, it's this this talk about, you know, on paper, the US should win and all these things, and it just it doesn't seem to happen that often. Now, you know, you go back two years ago to Whistling Straits and it was a pretty dominant performance and I think that's kind of what we expected from that team
versus you know, maybe an overmatched European side. But and you know, honestly, I thought that might carry forward for the next or certainly for this year, and maybe going forward. And then all of a sudden you realize when Luke Donald was making it picks, man, that guy's a really
good player. Wow, that guy's a really good player. And then you look at it and you say, Okay, Adrian Moronc who was probably number thirteen, Okay, he's won three times in the last twelve months, and he won the Italian Open at Marcos Simoni last spring and he was left off the team. So you know, that just shows how deep the European side was much deeper than I'd expected. And it's, you know, being that favorite. I don't think you want to play in that favorite role. It's really hard.
And the Europeans have really embraced that underdog role of hey, let's get out there and play free and we've got nothing to lose kind of attitude, and I think the US side needs to try and adopt that, to find a way to like just let it go a little bit more.
Having been on three of these, just what's it like? I mean, how important is the captain in this? Because okay, so you guys you go over in ninety seven Tom Kites the captain, you guys lose. Then Crenshaw and Zinger
are kind of two of the captains. I mean, Zinger especially was kind of the guy that kind of from a US standpoint, kind of brought this idea of this pod system right to where you're gonna get a group of players within the twelve, you're gonna have your group, they're gonna give you a vice captain, and I think that's been really that was new, that was something that
hadn't really been done before. And then you've got you know, Ben Crenshaw who's the ultimate old school kind of wake up the echoes, kind of you know, iconic, you know this wreck and tour kind of just a very soulful guy. So from a captain standpoint, because obviously everyone's going to look at Zach as a captain and say, okay, he
made a bunch of mistakes. When you've been on the three Ryder Cups that you've been on, what's that like as the player captain and how important is to is the captain to you as a player on these teams?
Well, I mean three very different styles and personalities and captains. You know, Tom Kite was very much by the book dot all the eyes across all the t's. That being said, you know, I had three different partners that week. I played a match on Saturday afternoon with Tiger Woods. I hadn't seen Tiger all week, didn't play a practice around with them, all those things, so and we were down too, So you kind of throw the cards up in the air and say, well, I've got to change things up.
You know, Ben is very touchy feely. There wasn't a lot of organization of that week either. The pairings were a little bit random. And then Paul brought this kind of organization and continuity to it where he tried to take some of the the mystery out of it and and really said, okay, here's here are the multiple here's the chances of guys, you're gonna play with one of
these three players. And he couldn't tell you which match and those things, but you know, and so within our pod, like we are able to take some ownership to it and and really get involved in the process. And I think that's the thing that that captains have tried to bring going forward, is there's so much going on for the week. Uh, it's such a busy week that try and take some of the doubt like who who am I going to play with? Or when am I going
to play? And so I think that's something that that these captains, you know, Jim Fearret, Davis lob Now, Zach Johnson, have tried to emulate of Okay, let's try and bring a little bit of organization to the chaos so that guys understand, Okay, I'm likely going to play with these two or three players, and so you can kind of you know a little bit more ahead of time. Now I understand, like you lose all four sessions on a on a you know, Friday, you may have to mix
things up a little bit. But I think having some sense of especially for the players maybe who haven't been there before, Okay, this may not be your partner all week, but you're gonna play with one of these two or three players. I think that's kind of been the idea going forward. But for whatever reason, it just didn't work last week.
This thing was over on Friday morning, right, I mean you go, oh, I mean yes, we have seen comebacks before. I mean, it happened in the Solheim Cup where the
just recently the European Soulheim Cup team. They lose the first four matches and they went on to win, but there was definitely a feeling that after the morning matches going you know, throwing up the bagel for the US getting no points, it definitely seemed like, I mean, Europe was in the driver's seat, and it seemed like we never really recovered from the start that we got off
to in the morning. When you look at those pairings from that Friday morning, we've got see We've got Scheffler and Burns, Homa and Brian Harmon, Ricky Fowler, Morikala Xander and can't lay if you could go back and would you send those out as a captain or would you say, Okay, maybe we make some changes and maybe we play it differently.
Well, I think, you know, the one pairing in that that I really kind of hesitate about is the first one is Scheffler and Burns. Sam Burns, Yes, he won the match played back in the spring, that was in April, and he really hasn't played that well since. To put him out in an alternate shot, I think I think it was a risk. And but I mean the guys just didn't play well. I mean the European side was up, you know, two and three up through after five or six holes, and I know those first couple of matches,
and and it just it was a blowout. And I'll say that that the US had a chance Friday afternoon to you know, if they go out and they get three to one in the afternoon, I think they'd feel pretty They would have felt pretty good about themselves going into too Saturday morning. But losing the eighteenth hole the way they did in a couple of those matches, I think was it the afternoon it was European side one one and then the other three were ties, so you know,
the US only getting a point and a half. They needed three points in the afternoon. So really, to me, it was Friday night it was like, okay, this, this is kind of done. I mean it was what a six point yeah, six point deficit at that.
Point, six and six and a half to one and a half after the after Friday.
So five points, they're just there. Needed to be more of a sense of urgency. I think on the US side Friday afternoon to okay, let's chip away at this. It's four points, get it to two points by Friday night, and then all of a sudden, I think you feel pretty good going into Saturday morning. But it's just time. And again it's the European side. They'd make a putt whenever they got in trouble, they'd chip in those kind of things, and there was nothing happening like that from the US team.
Yeah, the US were down. They were down five points after on Friday night, they were down five points on Saturday night, and they lose by five points on Sunday night. Why do you think our record in alternate shot? I'm American, I call it alternate shot.
I mean, yeah, yeah.
It's alternate shots. For me, it's best ball, alternate shot, foursome's four ball. I can't figure any of that out. I'm not smart enough. But why do you think the US struggled so much in the alternate shot format and the Europeans have just flourished historically in that system. And then we always play good in the singles, We always tend to play good when it's best ball, but in the alternate shot over the last thirty years, we just
get run out of the building. By the way the Europeans play alternate shot.
It's I wonder what's happening in practice rounds. I mean, yes, I'm over there, but I've got to do my work on the golf course and things like that. I watched the guys play a little bit on Thursday. I caught a few holes of each group with the Americans, and they.
Were, yeah, we saw yeah, we ran into you on on sixteen.
You know, are they playing some ultnate shot in the practice rounds? You know, I think they're so busy trying to get their game ready, especially for the you know, the nine guys who hadn't played in five weeks to sit there and only hit half the shots is. You know, they feel like, well, I'm not really able to get my game ready. So you know how much of that is happening, I don't know, And I don't know how
much it's happening on the European side. I think the golf course setup has a lot to do with it. Just you know, an alternate shot, you have to be hitting fairways. Certainly on a place like Marcus Simoni with rough is deep as it was, you just you have to be playing from the fairways. And for the US side, that's never been a real priority because of the way the golf courses are set up and maintained weekend week out. On the PGA Tour.
I was doing I did some commentary for Sky and I was doing I was in one of the sessions with Andrew Coltart and Rich Beam. And Andrew was saying off camera it was Friday morning. He was like, they're professional golfers. I know, they don't play this type of golf all the time. And he was saying the same thing that you were saying. It just seemed like in the alternate shot, the Americans were struggling to get the ball in play. On Sunday, I went out and followed
Brooks and walked around his match. And one of the things I said to Brooks before he went out with against lud big Alberg Goes said, listen, just don't give him any holes. Make him beat you with either a birdie or a part, but don't get out of the holes. And on Sunday, in the singles match, Justin Brooks played so much more conservative than he did in the other two matches he played. I mean he was hitting some driving irons off with some te's. He was hitting a
lot of three woods off of some teams. That wasn't what he did in best ball and alternate shot. And he did it in the singles and he won easily, right, I mean, he cruised, He didn't have any problems. He looked totally in control. Is it hard than as a player justin to adapt on the fly when the golf
course kind of demands that you do that? And I know the mindset right because I'm walking all the practice rounds with all of these guys, and I'll be honest with you, in the three practice rounds that I walked, most of the guys are just hitting the US guys. They're hitting driver everywhere on a golf course, as you said, very similar to the setup at Golf Nationale in Paris
that set up in Rome last week. Maybe didn't necessarily set up for hitting driver all the time, because it seemed like if you're watching TV, I just kept seeing an American with a seven footer for a half for parr ye know, an eight footer for the half, a ten footer for the half for par right. So that means you're out of the hole and you're up against it before you get to the green, right.
I mean, look at the first hole, I mean the and I think both teams were hitting drivers there, but you know it was it was set up for something right to left, which not many the guys really play that often off the tee hit a three wood, put the ball in play. I mean all three of the first three pairings in the US all hit it in the right rough. Now you've got a tree over there, that's an issue. You can't get to the green because
the rough's so deep. You know. I think they're just so used to playing a certain way of pushing the ball down there as far as you can that. Yeah, it's like the struggle to adapt and finally like you said, Brooks, you know said, look, thanks to you, I'm going to get it the ball in the fairway, whatever that takes. And even if i'm hitting a you know, a seven iron versus you know, your opponent's hitting a nine er
a wedge, at least you're in the hole. It better that than hacking a sandwich out fifty yards short of the green and trying to get it up and down. So again, I think a lot of that just goes back to, you know, they're used to playing a certain style of golf and not making those adjustments to say, hey, look maybe I'm not as sharp as I think I am. I need to just find a way to get the
ball and play and get it on the green. Like you said, so I'm not putting from ten feet for par because it didn't seem like many of those putts were going in. I was surprised also at how many putts were really poorly misread. Both teams had the pin
sheets all five rounds or all five matches. They didn't know necessarily what day they were going to be the but and you know, when I was following, they were putting teas or rubber cups down to you know putt to certain holes, but man, there's just a lot of misreads putts from fifteen and twenty feet that were missed by a foot. You just don't see that very often. And so I was really taken back by that that that, you know, the guys, they just didn't seem prepared at
all to come in and play. I mean, you know, would you ever if Brooks came to you and said, hey, ch I'm gonna get ready for the Masters, I'm going to take five weeks off, uh and just make sure that I'm rested. I think you would. You would talk them out of that immediately.
And that doesn't that, I mean, nobody does that.
That's not a recipe for success. I understand taking a week or two off before, but you've got to get engaged in something. And that's where like reading putts, you don't reading You're not reading putts when you're at home playing your you know, your home golf course or something like that, or even during a practice round, you're not sitting there grinding over and reading putts. That's why it's important to play tournament golf so that you really understand
where your game is. You're going through that whole process, and you know, I think that's certainly what was lacking.
So the obvious question justin is, you know, where does the US team go from here? I mean, after what happened with Tom Watson and Phil Michlson at Glenn Eagles in fourteen, there was a task force and you and I were talking yesterday that you felt like in the last ten years some things have gotten better with the US setup. But what are the things coming out of another pretty significant and beat down in twenty twenty three.
Where does the US team go from here? And what do you think they need to do for the next matches at bet the Page Black to not just rely on the fact that the US is more dominant at home than they are away. What do you think needs to happen and where do you think this is going to end up?
Well? I think there have been some positive changes in giving the players more of a say, there's more continuity from year to year for captains, and seems like now the President's Cup has kind of become a part of that. But what are the next captains? I mean, Phil Michelson was certainly going to be a captain. I doubt that's going to happen you know, Tiger is obviously going to be a captain, and he wasn't in Rome, but I think he would have been, you know, had it not
you know, having his surgeries and things like that. And I'm sure that he was involved to some extent. But I think the players have almost had too much power when it comes to putting the team together. Six picks is a lot of picks. I understand, you know, I think seven eight nine, we're all chosen. But that's and I think that the players had a lot of say
in who was picked. I think that you know, maybe a captain like Tiger is going to say, you know what, I appreciate that, but I'm going to go this direction. I think, you know, and look, all those guys in the team room, they're all very good friends of mine. They've all been doing it for a long time, and they've put a lot of effort and time into the
Ryder Cup and the US team. But I think it's time to, you know, maybe bring try and usher in some new guys that you think are going to be captains down the road, and bring some different personalities into that room that you know, I mean, a guy like Tiger, he's going to stand up for what he thinks and not necessarily listen to you know what one of the players,
you know, their ideas are thinking. So I think all that's taken into consideration, but I think the players almost have too much power in this day and age.
Yeah, I mean you saw Justin Rose. You know, they paired in They paired Justin Rose with probably on paper the weakest player for the European side, and Bob McIntyre, and he goes two to zero to one. He gets two and a half points.
Right.
He was a guy that I think a lot of players thought was a guy that would struggle. And in the press conference afterward, Justin Rose said, listen, the Ryder Cup isn't about playing with your friends and playing with people that you're comfortable with. The Ryder Cup is about playing for your country. So to be a good Rider Cup captain in euro opinion, the criteria I think is changing, right because historically the only way you could be a Ryder Cup captain for the US is you had to
be a major champion. And I always thought it was really interesting that we tended to put so much focus on you had to be a major champion to be a Ryder Cup captain. The Europeans never had that right. Yes, Seve had won a major, Yes Bernhard Longer had won a major, but Monty never won a major. He was a great captain. Nick Faldo won a boatload of majors, he wasn't a great captain. Paul McGinley never came close to winning a major champion, he to me was an
amazing captain. In your opinion, justin what do you feel like you need and let's just make it specific to the American to be a good American captain, What do you think are the traits and characteristics that you need to have.
I think A you need to be willing to listen to vice captains and to players to a certain extent. And Ben, you also have to be able to not be afraid to bend or hurt somebody's feelings. And I'm not talking about like calling them to say you're not on the team, but saying you know what, I appreciate your input. But as I just said, like, but we're going to go in this direction because I have a vision for this and this is what we're going to do.
And that's it. Nothing more needs to be said. I think it's that way when it comes to making the captain's picks. I think it comes that way when it's when you're making pairings. Just because a team has worked very well in the past does not mean that in that give and week that's the right team or they're
the right teammates for each other. You know, there's some diplomacy, but there's also needs to be a bit of an ego where it's like, well, okay, but this is what we're going to do and that's it and nothing more needs to be said. That's why I think Tiger is going to be such a great captain when he decides to do it. He's got the respect of the players enough, and I think all the players have respected captain. But
to say, you know what, that's fine. I appreciate your thought, but this is the direction we're going to go in. And I think there's guys like you know, Brent Snedeker. I think he needs to be brought into the mix because I think he's that kind of guy as well. And but yeah, what like we need to start identifying these next captains down the road. And you know Stuart sink was there, Does that mean he's a future captain? He's certainly worthy of it with his you know, resume
and all that. You know, but then again, Matt Kucher was an Assistan at eighteen. He wasn't involved in this. So, you know, I think it's starting to prepare those next captains.
And I think, you know, if there seems to be a little bit of a some symmetry between the President's Cup and the Ryder Cup, like the Presence Cup is a great place to bring that new captain in and get him around some of the guys that's in that room, whether it's you know, Burick or Striccer, those kind of things, and kind of have them experience what that process is like and so that the things that have worked well since twenty fourteen they can continue. But it doesn't mean like, Okay,
this is how we have to do it. It's not. Yeah, it's been better at home, but it's not working on the road. You know, you can always try and bring new things into the mix, and I think a lot of that just starts with peoples and the captains and even the vice captains and their personalities.
Do you think justin that we sent our best team, do you think that those were the twelve best players to win that Ryder Cup.
No, I don't. I think the fact that Kegan Bradley wasn't there and Lucas Glover weren't there tells you that it wasn't the twelve best players, best Americans. I think a lot of it was okay pairings and then you know, I think a lot of it was okay, who do the guys want to be around for the week. And No, I think the fact that those two are left off the list just shows you how much control, you know, the automatic qualifiers had in the room.
Yeah, I mean, if you look at that golf course, and again I think you're correct, it had a very similar feel to Golf Nationale in Paris, the way that the Europeans set the golf course up. You would think, with the fact that we weren't, the US team didn't
seem to drive the ball as well. A guy like Lucas Glover, who's one of the best drivers of golf ball on the planet, who hits the golf ball as straight as possible, you would think he would be a great partner in alternate shot to where you know he's not going to miss the fairway, right.
Yeah, I mean that's you know, that's pretty obvious. And then just the passion that Kegan Bradley has and how much he wants it. He's you know, you might say, well it's almost too much for him, but man, it certainly wasn't Madona, how well he played with Phil and so yeah, I think those are the two obvious ones to my mind. You know, again, I'm not in the
team room. I don't know exactly what's going on, but from the outside looking in, no, I don't think we had the best team we could have put on the golf course.
You mentioned analytics. Nico Deris, who's part of John Rahm's performance team, who I've had on the podcast before. I was with him yesterday. He was showing me some messages between himself and Edwardo Molinari from three four months ago. From what I saw yesterday, John ram knew who he was going to play with in every session months ago and everything was about what that player did. I looked at text messages yesterday between Eduardo and Nico and it
was fascinating. But these are from before the summer. This was in May, when they had an idea of who they were going to get on the team. This between data analytics and stats and real world kind of playing golf. How do you think moving forward we balance that in this team environment, because I mean I've seen a bunch of the Euro's analytics. I've talked to a lot of them about the process, and it seemed very different than what the US was doing. I mean, it really did.
It seemed a lot more cohesive. It seemed a lot more thought out, and I think it seemed to me just a lot more explained to the players on the European side. So there was a buy in for the data as opposed to just here's a bunch of data. You're going out with that guy because that's what the stats say. That's very different than if the people telling you what the data is saying, Okay, this is why this is going to work, right.
You know, I think the US side relies a lot on data as well. And you know, when when all goes well, you just stick absolutely with the data and you know, you keep writing it out, and you know, when you show up and you win the first session for zero man, you just stay right in your rhythm
and what you're doing and all that. What the data doesn't show is like, Okay, you might have somebody who's who's had certain performance characteristics over the course of a year or two, and they show up a week and all of a sudden, you know, they're not driving the ball well, or they're not putting well or those things.
And then like all of a sudden, the data like it, it steered you in a direction that maybe you know you can't go because somebody's just not playing well or they're not you know, they're struggling at the time in certain aspects of their games. So I know the US relies heavily on data as well, but when all of a sudden you show up and you throw up a goose egg in the first session, you know, sometimes you have to You've got to pivot and you go, Okay,
well this isn't working. We've got to go other directions and those things. So again, I you know, I think back to the Oakland A's and to me that was kind of really the first really driven data driven team aspect in sports. And you know, yes, it got to them to a certain point, but in the end, you also have to have a little bit of a feel for the game and understand, Okay, I know that data may say this, but I need to go in this direction a little bit. So again I'm not in those rooms.
I you know, when everything is going well, I think that you just stick with the data. I think, you know, obviously for the US side, probably got thrown some curveballs and say, okay, we need to change things up here, because you know this players really performing up to their you know what the data says and those kind of things.
The performance from John Rom, Rory McElroy, Victor Hovlin, and Tommy Fleetwood, it was it was something. I mean, the golf that that Rory and John Rahm are able to just almost kind of will I mean, it does look like that to me that you just know Rory is going to go out and get it done, you just know John Rahm is going to go out and get it done. Just where do you think that comes from? Because I mean I watched it up close last week, and you watched the performance of Rory, you watch the
performance of John Rahm. I mean they looked last week like men amongst boys with the way they were playing the game.
Yeah, I think you know, Rory has had a couple of disappointing Ryder Cups. He didn't play great in France. He really struggled at Whistling Straits, and you know, I remember the emotional interview after singles match and how he broke down because he felt like he let the team down. I think for Rory, I think John Ram and Victor Hoblin helped Rory because he doesn't feel like he has to carry the team on his shoulders. He doesn't feel like, you know, however he goes is how the European side
is going to go. He knows he's got a couple guys there that, you know, any given day could beat Rory McElroy and so having that kind of support, and by the way, they're all in the top four in the world, I think that's freeing for Rory. And I think also the expectations go down a little bit for him from the outside because he does have John Rom, he does have Victor Hoblin and and it'll be fascinating
to see at Bethpage. You know, if those three guys are able, if they're able to perform like that at Bethpage, I don't know. Does the US even have a chance. I would say they do, But like we've talked about, it is harder to play on the road because of the fans because of the golf course and all those things. But I was you know, I think Rory was really upset by his play in the last two Ryder Cups, and I think he found a way to find a sense of freedom knowing that he's got a great supporting cast.
And you know, and just so, I mean, Victor Howland obviously played well. He won the FedEx Cup. You know, those guys all played well. I think they had seven players finished in the top ten. It wentworth at the BMWPGA, which by the way is essentially the players Championship for the DP World Tour, so it's a huge event. You know, all of those things. I think, you know, that just created this wave of confidence for the European side. And you know, every all three of those guys played great.
And you know, like you said, Justin Rose stepping up, Tommy Fleetwood obviously just.
Errol Hatton goes undefeated, I mean, go wins three points. Terroll Hatton won three and a half points. That guy is an absolute bulldog. I mean it's easy to look at Terrell Hatton and look at his persona and you know, you laugh at all the things that he does and how bad he can sometimes act on the golf course, which I love. I mean, I'm a huge tear off.
I mean I think it's hilarious. But I said to him walking into the we were walking into the team hotel on Saturday night, and I just said to him, I said, man, it it is fun to watch you play golf. That guy. I don't think Terroll Hatton gets enough credit for the type of player he is, because he that kid is legit.
Oh absolutely. And you know it's so funny. You think of like, Okay, he with his you know, combustible attitude and John Rahm, who was also very you know, uh combustible. You know, those two playing together like they didn't have a lot to complain about really because they played so well. You know, does that work in front of a New York crowd. I don't know, if they play the way they did, it might, but you know, those two just
they played great together. And you know, John said, it's not just their attitudes, it's their outlook on the game that's very similar, you know, even there, I mean down, I'm sure they probably shared you know, beard conditioners which with each other. I mean, they were just so in sync all week long and it was. It was really fun to watch those two.
How good do you think Victor Hovlin can be now that he's done a lot of work with Joe Mayo. The short game which was a absolute, complete and utter liability before. I mean, his short game was heired to the rest of his game was the short game of a fifteen handicap relative to everybody else, and you know, it was bad. And he has turned that into a strength. His attitude. He's always got a smile on his face. He has really become a fan favorite. But I just
continue to be so impressed justin with his game. And I was saying to his caddie on Sunday morning, Shay Knight, if you look at vic his iron shots, look at how many when you watch Victor Hoblin play, how many of his iron shots are past the hole? Three, four, five steps past the hole? Which means, you know, Tiger was the greatest because everything just finished pin high. Vic's actually going past pin high and then rolling it back to four feet And I just I don't see that
really right now. What weaknesses does a guy like Victor Hoblin have it?
He doesn't have any now, And like you said, I mean he admitted. A couple of years ago, he was quoted in a TV interview and say, I just suck at chipping. And now, like I was watching him hit these like spinny kind of flop shots right of the
ninth green the par five. Penn was in the back part of the green, landing these things on a downslope, and I was watching him hit this shot up in the air off a very tight past palum lie putting spin on it, and I thought, Okay, this is like this is night and day difference, and that's the difference. You know, Victor Hoblin, I think, with this short game was a you know, around maybe tenth best player in
the world because he hit it so good. A pretty good putter, not a great putter, but now that he can chip the ball, he has no weaknesses and I think he's he's gonna be number one player in the world in the next year or so. He's got that kind of game, he's got that confidence now because he's done this stuff on such a huge stage between the FedEx Cup and the Ryder Cup, you know, there's no limit to how good he can be.
We've talked about Zach Johnson, and you know, the fact that the US didn't get it done. Luke Donald, captain for the European side, give me a gauge on what you feel like was part of the formula that he got right.
I don't know that there's anything he didn't get right from his picks. I mean, yeah, you thought, wow, he's left Adrian moronc Like, how do you do that? Well, you can't second guess that now. I mean, I think Adrian MORONK would have done fine and all that, but these twelve players he had in the room completely bought into what he was doing. He's done. They've done a
nice job. I mean you look at at you know, live and how it you know whether the DP World Tour decides to bring some of those guys back into the mix. But they lost their next four or five captains between you know, Ian Poulter, Henrik Stenson who was the Ryder Cup captain, Lee Westwood, Sergio like those are their next captains. So who have they brought into the
room now? You know, Francisco Mollinari, Eduardo mollinariuh, Nicholas Colesarts, I mean you know Thomas Bjorn, you know from a couple of years ago and France was, you know, was there to kind of help bridge that. But they've got to identify these new captains. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I'm sure they're going to try and get Luke to do it again in in at Beth page. Whether he wants to do it or not is the real key. And and you know, being an away captain
there's not quite as many responsibilities and duties. It look, it's still a full time job. But I think I wouldn't be surprised if Luke says yes, because it seemed like how much he enjoyed the experience. He talked about this being really the panicle of his career. You know, I would I'm sure they're going to try and talk him into it. It'll be interesting to see whether he decides to do it or not, or if he just wants to, you know, take his playbook and hand it off to the next person.
You talked about the vice captain said, he's got right. I mean, obviously you've got Ola Thabol as a vice captain because he's kind of the og next to seventy. He is kind of their spirit animal, right. Jose kind of embodies everything that Europe is as a Wryter Cup entity.
The spirit, the passion, the joy, the camaraderie. I mean to me, when I see Jose, you see that part of his career more than you see him as a two time Masters champion, right, you see the Ryder Cup as his kind of identity because he was so great in that. Thomas Bjorn had a great Ryder Cup record as a player. He won as a captain in Paris. But there's guys in that backroom staff that aren't necessarily
superstars like the guys on the US side. From a backroom staff, Yes, Francesco Molinari won a major champion championship, but you've got Eduardo. You've got a guy like Nicholas Coastcartz who you wouldn't think would be vice captain's pick. Do you think there's something in that in that you're picking guys that aren't necessarily rock stars, right, They're not necessarily guys that you know by one by their first name, right. I mean, if you look at the Ryder Cup captain,
I mean we've got three of them. I mean we've got Freddie, We've got Davis. Right, you know them by first names because of everything they've done. Do you think there's some anonymity in the captain the vice captain choices that the Europeans choose, which actually helps them because it seems less about their persona and it's just more about them as a person.
I do I think there. You know, you mentioned earlier Paul McGinley. There were probably people in the US that had never heard of Paul mcginnley. Now he had a really nice career, but captain the Ryder Cup team was the pinnacle of his career. You know. I think that because the US dominated major championships for so long, the US, and you know, and then you had Ernie Els and you had VJ and Ratief Goosen and and you know,
guys from Australia. But but there was a bit of a drought on the European side when it came to major championships, and so it seemed like those Ryder Cup captains, you know, and thinking to McGinley and Thomas Bijorn, like they maybe didn't have the resume as an end of visual that we kind of seek out in the US for our Ryder Cup captains, or we kind of expect
from our captains. But what you accomplished individually has nothing to do with what kind of leader you're going to be in the team room, what kind of you know, the example that you're going to set the You know, those two have very little in common. So you don't have to be a three or four time major champion to be a great captain. The two don't really have anything to do with each other. What you need to have is is the respect of the players so that
they will buy into what you're trying to do. You have to have be willing to listen to the players and their thoughts and you know, the analytics and all that that team, but then have the confidence or ego if you will, to say, you know what, this is what I'm going to do. I've taken all that in, this is my plan and then and it's not questions, then guys buy into it. And that's not always the
easiest balance to strike. I think that you know, there's a lot of respect for Luke Donald in the world of golf, and certainly by you know him as a player. He never won a major, but he reached number one in the world, and he reached number one in the world. He wasn't a great driver of the golf ball, exceptional iron player, unbelievable pottering around the greens. Okay, so you could say that this guy he's got a lot of heart. Maybe because you know, you know him being from England everything,
you don't necessarily always see the personality. He's a bit more reserved, but you know that he's got a lot of heart by his playing career. So you know, like, where's that heart. From the American side, we know Zach Johnson's got heart. He's almost a similar player to Luke Donald. Not the longest, but you know, finds a way to get things done, you know. And he's won a Master's in an open championship. He certainly has the resume for it.
But is that resume always the most important thing? I don't think so.
So the obvious question, then, Justin, is if you have you been asked to be in the Ryder Cup setup? Because I think that given the way that you think, given the way that you kind of live your life, to me, I think you'd be an amazing captain As a writer, Cub, would you do it? Have you ever been approached?
I would do it. I was, you know when that task force was formed, and I wasn't in that room. To me, I thought the writing was on the wall. I was asked to be an assistant a few years ago. I didn't feel like it was the right time for me to really put in the time that I felt to do that. It was at a critical point in a season where I hadn't played that well, and I just I didn't think that was my end to a
possible captaincy, so I declined the offer. Maybe it was, Maybe it was, And I don't know, but I can tell you sitting here, you know, at fifty one and playing on the PGATUR champions as val was approached at this point to do it, I would absolutely be involved. But I again, I may have missed my window a few years ago.
I mean, it's strange that there's windows right that. Okay, I missed my window, and now because I missed that window, I can't be considered again. I mean, to me, that just doesn't make any sense. Right. You've got to look at people that you know, it can't just be the same as you said. It just can't be the same people, right. There has to be some ability, I think on the US side, to somewhat pivot and go, Okay, we thought we were going to go in this direction. We just
got smoked by five points again on European soil. You got to try something different, right, because something's got to change.
I agree. I mean it's you know, historic, like you said, it was a to be the US captain, you need to be a major winner, and there's always somebody between like forty five and fifty years old and you know, so you could kind of identify the next captain's But I don't think that's that's necessary now. I think, you know, you wouldn't want to go too far away from uh, you know, to get enough separation where you know the captain maybe not know the players as well. But you know,
Davis was a captain. You know, he was captain twice obviously, and in the second time he was pretty well into his fifties, So I don't I think that formula's kind of dissolved a little bit. And then obviously Steve Stricker had never won a major championship him being captain, So I think you certainly have to have people who've played Ryder Cup and understand what that is like. But I think they're there are some good options maybe outside of
that kind of window that we've seen historically. You know, the captains have kind of come from.
I think we've got a good idea based off of some of the guys that the Europeans got into this setup, right ludvig Alberg, hoy guard, you would think that those guys are going to be guys that are gonna kind of be a part of that. Who do you think from the US side in two years, who are you looking at to make that team? Who are you looking at from the US side that you think okay? Because two years ago, I mean nobody, nobody would have picked
ludvig Alberg to be on a Ryder Cup team. And the kid was playing college golf three you know, six months ago, I mean he was playing. He was in a team bus, playing for Texas Tech, carrying his own bag. And six months later he's playing in a Ryder Cup. I was saying to Brooks, we were joking, how many guys over last weekend that are currently playing college golf.
We're telling everybody that they they that would listen, how they beat Ludwig in this tournament, how they beat him in that tournament, how they play better than he does. And this guy's playing on a Ryder Cup team and drinking champagne. So who Who's Who? Are some names that you think from a US standpoint that could step up and be a part of this next Rider Cup team.
Well, chances are two or three of them are in college right now. You know, Gordon Sergeant, I could see him being on a Ryder Cup team in two years. You know Nick Dunlap, I could see him being on a Ryder Cup team, just one of the US amitar He just lipped out a putt for fifty nine at a college tournament, I think yesterday or Monday. So you know, there's chances are there's guys that are still in college.
They're going to be on this team. I think you're still going to have There's always going to be turnover. There's always going to be turnover. It's just too competitive. You know, you figure Scotti Scheffler is going to be on these teams, Patrick Can't lay, Max Holma. You know you're going to have some repeat parts, but you're also going to bring in some new guys. I mean, would you have thought two years ago that Brian Harmon would be on the Ryder Cup team and then he'd be
a major champion not necessarily. And you know he played very well on Saturday with Max Holma, and you know, Max, I think carry the majority of the load. But but
Brian played some really good golf on Saturday. So there's you know, there's it's hard to pinpoint, okay, these players, but I guarantee you after seeing Ludwig play, watching him play these college players, you know, the PG twer has done a great thing in this PG two university where the you know, the leading college player in immediately gets his tour card and I think the next five or next four, or the next ten or nine they get
access on corn Ferry and those things. So you're gonna see the stars instead of turning pro, You're going to see them stay in college for three or four years so that they can take advantage of that opportunity. That's going to help the Ryder Cup on both sides. But certainly I think for the US, I guarantee you there there's probably two, maybe even three players that are playing college golf this year that could very well make the Ryder Cup team in two years.
Lastly, justin you were doing TV for NBC, you were doing TV for Golf Channel, and I was talking I can't remember where we were. I asked if you were playing any golf, and you were like, I hate golf. I never played golf. I'm not interested in playing golf. Now you've gone back to being a full time golfer,
you're playing on the Champs Tour. I thought it was crazy when you told me you had zero interest in playing golf, because, as I said in the opening, there aren't a lot of people in the game that have done what you've done. I mean you, you are one of those players that are very, very iconic and rare justin in that I mean this. You have done everything that is a benchmark for being a professional golfer. You've won. You know, my dad always says when he looks at
you know, a guy like Haile Irwin. You know, my dad always says, you know the thing about Hail Irwin that always stands out to me, He's been good my entire life, right, he was never not a great player. You were in that boat. What was the catalyst for you to fall back in love with competitive golf and make the decision to say, listen, that's who I am. I'm a competitive tournament golfer and I want to keep doing this well.
It was like twenty fourteen, fifteen sixteen. You know, I was kind of felt like I was beating my head against a wall. I wasn't playing very well. A lot of things and great things going on at home. Ib he sacrificed too much of my practice time for family reasons, and that was completely my own choice. But I just found more satisfaction being with my family than I did
from practicing and playing the game. So stepped away did TV, And you're right, those three years, like twenty seventeen through twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, I played maybe a handful of rounds a year. I was living in Colorado doing TV. I would do you know, two or three corporate events a year, and might you know, hit a few balls the day before, so I kind of maybe looked like I knew what I was doing. But you know, Luke, our oldest son, started playing golf during COVID because it's
about the only thing you could do. All of a sudden, I was about to turn forty nine, and I thought, well, if there's a chance I want to play, I need to start getting back into it. And I kind of fell back in love with the whole process and starting
to work at it and finding little things. And I was taking the things that I'd watched from watching the best players in the world and trying to maybe incorporate that into my own game, but maybe being more aggressive in those things and pushing the ball further down there. And so I just really kind of love the process. I think getting away from my own game and watching the best players in the world it inspired me in some ways. And so, you know, I played, I worked
my events for NBC and Golf Channel last year. I snuck in four different events after I became eligible in June. Not that I played any good, but I thought, you know what, if I could devote all my time to this, I think it's something that I'd really enjoy. And so I've enjoyed getting back into it this year. I've played, you know, I don't play every week. I play about every other week, and so but I've I've had a
lot of fun with it. And some of it's been, you know, falling into a couple of you know, habits that I've had in the past, whether it was watching the scoreboard a little too much or or you know, oh i'm hitting it pretty good. Maybe I'll spend as much time at it today, those kind of things to you know what, really I need to be ready to play each and every week. And it's a different kind of focus, it's a different mentality, but it's something that
I've really learned to embrace. My families embraced it. They enjoy watching me play golf. They don't come to a lot of tournaments, but you know, they watch on TV and those kind of things. And also they see the work that I put in when I'm at home. It was hard for them to see that in television, you know, doing TV. Yes, you do a lot of reading in those things. And the weeks when I was working were extremely busy, but I had a lot of free time. And so another thing is like I want to model
for my kids what hard work looks like. And I wasn't necessarily able to do that in television or they couldn't really see it. But now that I'm playing again, they can see the work that I put in, not only in the golf course, but in the gym, taking care of my body, you know, doing things to get my mind in the right, you know, the right space
in order to compete. And I've just I've really enjoyed all the things that I've learned trying to apply that and you know, some new wrinkles into my game that I would say, some things that I wasn't able to do you know later in my regular PG tour career that I'm able to do now. I'm hitting the ball further, my training has changed quite a bit, and you know, just really enjoying the competition is fine, the guys are great, and it's it's more friendly, but when it comes down
to it on Sunday, it's the same feelings. It's the same feelings of trying to win a golf tournament, trying to beat people. And I really I didn't realize I missed that until I got back into it, and you know that's really what drives me. Now.
Well, I can't thank you enough for talking to me, and I am going to put it out there justin Leonard Ryder Cup Captain. Let's let's let's let's get the ball rolling. It started here, so when it happens, you can say this was this was the tipping point in the catalyst to get get the name in the hat. But I'm telling you, I think you could do a hell of a job and I'm pushing the I'm gonna sart, I'm gonna get buttons. Justin, Justin, Beth Page, Justin, I'm just gonna hand him out.
Thank you, Claude. I appreciate it, Always appreciate your insight. And Okay, if it happens, I'll be sure and take care of you in some way.
I just want to drive one of the carts. That's it. If you if you get there, just give me the cart driver job. I saw a lot of guys doing that last week. I think I'm good enough to drive a cart somewhere and just drive it and make sure everybody's got water.
The job is yours.
Great talking to you, take care. So that was Justin Leonard, and I thought Justin had some really good stuff to say. And listen, I think that any time the US side gets beat in a Ryder Cup, there's always kind of this porsmotem of trying to figure out what happened. I thought that he gave some really good insights to someone who's been on the team before. He's been on a
winning side, he's been on a losing side. And listen, I think that the caliber of players that the US has Beth Page I think they on paper, I think again, because it's the US, because it's beth Page, because of the crowd. I think they'll probably go in as the favorites again. But as we just saw, I think you can throw a lot of that stuff out of the window. And as I said, players play the captains, yes, but
the US they just got out played. And you can try and figure out and that's what everybody's trying to do. But ultimately it came down to the Europeans made more putts, they chipped in, and they got the job done. The US didn't. We'll see at Bethpage in two years. That's different. If you're an American fan, you hope so and if you're a European fan, you're hoping that maybe they do get Luke Donald to come back as captain and see if they can dominate. But it was a fun week,
not the outcome that the US wanted. But Ryder Cups are always amazing to be a part of. Son of a Butcher comes to you every Wednesday. We will see you next week.