It's the Son of a Butcher podcast we come to every Wednesday. I'm your host, Claude Harmon. This week's guest probably not a household name for a lot of you, but one of my favorite golf writers, Joy Chakravarti. I've known Joy for a long time from my time in Dubai. I think he's one of the best writers around. I like his view. I've always liked his worldview on world golf, on the DP World Tour, on Asia, on what's going
on all around the world. And I think he brings a unique perspective because he has seen golf kind of on a global scale. He's seen all of the tours around the world, a lot of these tours from the developing nations, and listen, the holy grail has always been to get to the PGA Tour. That's where you knew that if you were a great player, you were not only going to play against the best players in the world, but that was where the money was. And you know, we talk a lot about that. We talk a lot
about all the different things going on. We talk about, you know, what's going on with the PGA Tour, what's going on with liv But I got to catch up with him in Mical last week. I was there for the International series, and you know, he has a unique perspective on how we grow the game on a global scale, and I think that's what I hope is going to happen in the future, is that we are going to
see golf become more global. We're going to see the greatest players in the game playing around the world, and that the fans around the world will get to see the best players in the world. So wanted to get Joy on and get his perspective. Like I said, he's one of my favorite writers, and I think everyone's going to enjoy listening to him if you haven't heard from him before. He has some really good takes on what is going on in the game. So sit back and
enjoy a really good interview. Joy. You and I have known each other a long time, and I certainly think you're one of the best golf journalists out there because you have such so much more of a worldview, and that's the reason why I kind of wanted to get
you to come on and talk. You wrote a really interesting article last week about Obviously Live kind of pulling out of their bid to get world rankings, but you made an interesting argument that other tours should kind of follow suit, and maybe the world rankings in twenty twenty four.
I don't know if they're dead, but it just doesn't seem like they are a very accurate way of looking at the tour or looking at the world of golf, unless you're specifically looking at the PGA Tour, because more and more it seems like it's almost they're the PGA Tour rankings as opposed to the world rankings.
You know, Claude, first of all, thank you for having me with you on the podcast. I really, uh enjoy it a lot whatever you do, apart from doctoring the
golf swing of so many people. But you know, Claude, before I start, I must say I've had a great appreciation for what you have done, and I think that has only grown in the last three weeks because I saw you doubling up in pain and sitting in the hotel room in Jeddah and you told me that you have to go through an MRI scan for your back, and yet you were there every day out on the course walking around. I'm in man, that takes I'm doing.
It's part of it's for the job. I appreciate you saying that.
But but but you, honestly, I mean that takes a lot of commitment and dedication, you know, to to your players, to all, and so I really honestly appreciate that.
I appreciate you saying that. But further to my point, you've been a part of global golf right and there are a lot of people listening that I think they are guilty at times that just seeing the PGA Tour and golf in America, and from a professional standpoint, as that is somewhat the end all be all, and part of I think what has made the fabric of professional
golf over the last twenty five to thirty years. Who has been the wider world If you look at all of the great players that came out of the European Tour back in the day that started winning all of these majors, the fabric of professional golf is filled with players that just aren't from the US and play on the PGA Tour. But yet to a lot of people, it seems like everything in professional golf is at the moment revolving specific around the PGA Tour.
So that's the thing. Claude and that's where the article came from. You know, the thing is that I can understand p Die too, being one of the biggest does in the world.
Listen, the PGA Tour is the benchmark. They always have been. If you talk to anybody in the last thirty years, the goal has been if you're not playing in America, the goal was always top fifty because you knew if you got inside the top fifty in the official World of Golf rankings, you were going to get into all the majors. Then you were going to be eligible for the big invites. From the likes of Bayhill, from the likes of Memorial, from the likes of the old Honda, you could get in there.
Yea.
And it seems like right now, the way the world rankings are set up, the only way you can move up the world rankings right now is to basically play full time on the PGA Tour.
Yeah.
So that Ludwig Aberg I mean a fantastic talent, like an amazing, brilliant young talent. He's top ten in the world. He's never played in a major, he's only been a pro for less than a year, and he's won one golf tournament in the wrap around in at the RSM at the end of the year where there aren't the best players play. Now, that's not to take away from I think he is a future global superstar. I mean, I think the kid is a stud, right. I think
he has big time game. I think we are going to see his name for the next ten to fifteen years. I think we're going to see his name on leader boards on Sundays, on the back nine in major championships. That's how good of a player he is. But when you have guys that are major champions in the you know you got to go. I mean, Ludwig is higher rank than Brooks Keepka and Brooks has won four or five tournaments in the last two years. One of them is a major championship.
Yeah, so Ludwig is a great example of what the world golf has to offer. You know, if he's doing so well and vowing the fans on the pediatur, let's not forget his roots. He's not from the US and there are so many other players like Tom Kim. Tom Kim, I.
Had Chouman sat on my podcast a couple of years ago and we were talking about the rise of Tom and what a great story, right, I mean, he is such a talent, He's got a smile that's incredibly infected. I mean, I just I love being around him. But we won't see his story happen again. We won't see a kid be able to come from where he came from, go to the Asian Tour, play some Korean PGA stuff, then get to the DP World and then somehow managed to get to the If you're.
Not that's not happening.
That's not happening anymore. And that's what I don't think a lot of people realize is stories like Tom Kim. I think Tom's been one of the great stories in the last two or three years. Yeah, but that won't happen again. You won't see a player come from where he came from and rise the way he has risen. Just won't see it.
Yeah, so uh, Claude, just just from from where I come from India. I mean, if I have to give you an example, look at Jeeve Milka saying, you know, when he won all those events in Asia on the DP World Tour or European Tour as it used to be, he got into the top fifty of the rankings and he went into the majors, and there was so much
buzz about golf in the country. I remember in two thousand and six to two thousand and eight there were you know, performances of Jief which would upstage cricket from the back page of the newspaper, which which is a huge thing in India. And you know, I mean there are so many stories like Jeef floating around. And look at that young kid den with Boribun sub of Thailand winning three tournaments just nineteen years of age. He is another dunkin and the making. But really get to the
pdiador now, really get to the majors. I have serious doubts because even if he wins five tournaments this year, he will not get into the top fifty. The way the world rankings are functioning right now.
Why do you think there has been a reluction of reluctance from the governing bodies in the world rankings. With the world rankings, because you've got the one side, You've got the people saying listen, the people that signed up that went to live, they knew what they were getting into. They knew they weren't going to get any world ranking points.
They only play fifty four holes. There's no cuts. For all the reasons why everyone is against the World Rankings making a change, but the charter of the World Rankings is to rank the best players in the world. Absolutely, And I think there is an argument on the other side. Everybody says, listen, the guys that went to Live they knew they weren't going to get World Rankings, so they
can't complain in the took the money. But I also think there is another argument to where it's the official World Golf Rankings job and in their charter to rank the best players. And what I can't figure out, Joys, We've got this, We've got this unbelievable talent. Ludwig Augberg, right, gets on the PGA Tour, gets on the Ryder Cup, has his breakout. Right, he came out of a system, the college system, right, which is fifty four holes. There's no cut. The coach basically picks the team every week.
You can't call John Fields at the University of Texas or Conray Conrad Ray at Stanford and say, listen, I'm a junior golfer. I want to qualify for the Stanford golf team. He would say, well, no, we would have to recruit you to come play for Stanford, and then if you're really one of the best players amateurs in the world, they basically give you a four year full
scholarship and pay for your entire education. So by the time you get done going to Stanford for four years, that's upwards of over two hundred to three hundred thousand dollars they're paying you to go there. So somehow, some way, the PGA Tour figured out a way to have someone that is basically only playing fifty four holes events with no cut they're limited fields. The coach kind of picks
the team. There's no pathway on or off. Somehow we figured out a way to make sure that the best person to come out of the US college system get safe. And every week on the US college system there's an individual winner. Yeah, there's a team winner every single week. So they figured out a way to make sure the best players coming out of that system could get immediately
onto the PGA too. Somehow they figured that out. But nobody can figure out a way to get lib guys or change the world rankings to reflect where the game is today. And I thought John Rahm's comments last week, and I was blown away by Billy Horschel's comments this week about the eye test that you can tell who
the best players in the world are. So if you have guys like Billy Horschel saying you can tell who the best players in the world are, and maybe the Players Championship should start letting in players that they're not letting in. You've got John rom saying, listen, everybody knows
who the best players in the world are. Is it an incumbent upon the official World Golf ranks and say, okay, it's our job to rank the best players in the world in the game of golf, or is it just our job to rank the best players that are going to be playing on the biggest tour, on the PGA Tour, And listen, the PGA Tour is the show. Nobody's arguing that, right, that is everybody's goal. That has always been everyone's goal.
But everything in life changes, and you still remember that in the eighties, the official World Golf Rankings were set up by a management company basically, and once Nick Faldo, Sandy Lyle, Ian Woosnam, Bernhard, once these players started winning majors and started being global superstars, they had to come up with a way to try and incorporate all of this should that be happening now, regardless of what side
you're on. And this is the other thing joy that don't I don't get why do you have to choose? I think jame Onahan the one thing that and I would say this to him if I saw him, that I think he's guilty of. Is he was the one that saying no, no, you have to choose between the PGA to or or live or everything else. You have to make a stance and choose. Why do you have to choose that? I mean, you don't have to choose. You
will watch golf. And I've been saying this. There's golf in Asia, there's golf in Europe, there's golf, and all over the world. Now you can choose to watch golf wherever you want to watch it at.
You know what the argument about the w U, the charter with which they set up the world ranking system, I think if you just look at that and the way things are moving right now, you actually have a case of saying that something which is equally important to golf, which is the World Amateur Golf ranking is actually based on UH is not valid. You know, I mean, if you just if you just look at what the wo
WGR is saying. As as you rightly pointed out, these are based mostly on team events which have got an individual you know, title to be one, and the World Amateur Golf Ranking is the benchmark for the best amateurs in the world from where.
If you want to play college golf, the Official World Golf Rankings for juniors and amateurs is a way that college golf coaches are going to differentiate. You rank you figure out which ones you're going to come so everybody wagger is is the way they do that. But that is closely aligned with the way that the Official World Golf Rankings are. I guess the obvious question, Joy is
is there a solution? And if there is, what do you feel like is a real equitable solution, Because as soon as there doesn't seem to be any wiggle room, you're either PGA Tour or you think there's a place for lift. And I just don't get why it has to be like that.
See, I can't understand why lif can't be given the ranking points. Are you trying to say that the fifty four players who are among the best in the world are cheats? That they are going to you know, take take into consideration things like, oh, my team has to win, so maybe I should he's going to win the title. I'm not going to make up, but these things are not happening. And you have been around all these tournaments.
I've been to about fifteen tournaments in the last three I see each and every player fighting for that individual title as well and the great joy that the team championship brings at the end of it. Either you are saying that these fifty four guys are liars, they don't have the integrity, which is not correct at all. And you know, so the way forward I think Claude is that Live should be given ranking points as my belief, whether it is seventy five percon because they play a
three day tournament of the actual field rating size. That's that's one way to go forward. Live has proved that it is. It is financially stable, it has been going on for two and a half years now. It has it has got it has done everything that a golf tour needs to do. It has a promotions event, it has got telecast. I know how a smaller tour applies for you know, owg are recognition, and some of the things that the wou WGR looks at is are they
financially stable? Are they doing enough? You know, is there a Q school. I was part of Miner Tour when it had applied for you know, the World Golf ranking, And these were some of the things that were asked by the WOULD back in the.
Yeah, for sure.
And so why why should those criterias changed? You know? So I think would lift should be given a ranking facility. Whether it is from retrospective effect or not, that's that's another matter altogether. That's up for argument with them. I think they should be given with the retrospective effect, but also their needs. They've given this bonus points to the to the multiple winners of different tours, if they win multi you know, three or four tournaments in a year.
I think it should be including the top five players, not to that extent that you know, you give for points more, but the fifth place player should be given a little bit more extra point because at the moment it is like zero point zero seven three points for somebody who went, say comes forth on an Indian pediator event. What difference does it make? Don't give them the points?
And that is the reason why because if any of these smaller tour players they have any aspirations to go and play on a bigger tour or to go to the pediator, to go to the majors, owdr is the only way out right now.
A lot of the players that went to Live you know, are coming from the PGA Tour system, right and so I think a lot of people look and they say, you know, money, money, money, money, but you live, You're from India, you have championed and reported on all of the various tours around the world. The only way any of those new entity survive is money. The only way that golf grows. We're here in Macau this week. The
only way golf grows in Asia is money. That's why the PGA Tour wanted to partner and did the PGA Tour China to try and the influx of money through the International Series and through the Asian Tours partnership would live. They have gotten an influx of of money to help try and promote the game in regions that are very,
very different than Piga. You know, this tournament this week in Macau, I wish some of the guys from you know, no laying up and the barstool guys that are so so pro PGA Tour and anti lip I wish they would come to tournaments like this and see that this is where golf is growing, right, I mean, how many different nationalities do you think are playing this week here in Macau? It's got to be thirty eight thirty eight different. And so when everybody talks about growing the game, we're
not going to grow the game at Memorial. We're not going to grow the game at Riviera. The game gets grown by giving players from thirty eight different nationalities and opportunity to play. And you know, I mean, what's first prize here this week? Less than four hundred thousand? Yeah, I mean, you finish top ten this week and you finish tied, You're you're not taking home a lot of money. There's no free dry cleaning and courtesy cars like there are here. And the reason why the PGA Tour is
the juggernaut that it is is money. Yeah, is the investment from the sponsors. That's That's what I don't get about this whole argument where everybody's talking about money this and money that. I mean, Joey, you and I have known and it's funny since the advent of Live. For those of us that have been around international golf in europeon were like, you guys, do realize the dirty secret?
The European is based European Tour for years and Asia was basically where you went if you were a major champion to cash out, you went to the Middle East. You went to Asia because you know they would pay you massive appearance fees. I remember that year Jordan Speith had that breakout year. Where do you go, all of a sudden he's playing in Singapore, then the following week he's playing in Abadhabi. Is he doing that out of
the goodness of his oh's heart? Hell no, He's doing that because they paid And I know you don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with that. When Justin Thomas won a major, where was he Abadabi? Why because they paid him? And I think as a professional golfer and a professional athlete, if you're one of the best players in the world, if you're winning majors, that is the perk. I mean, yes, the tournament in Germany. Porsche,
why are they getting American players to come there? Because they're letting them design their own Porsches and ship them back to the United States. They're not going over there for any other reason. They're not going because they want to play golf in Germany the week after the US Open. They're going because a corporation gets a jet flies it
to wherever they're playing at the US Open. And then all the guys that are going to go play this tournament in Europe and they're all getting paid to go there, they all get on the corporate jet. Now, you and I have watched how long has been going on? Twenty years, twenty five years.
More than that. More than that, I think Sevy was the first one who really demanded that. See, the thing is, if you're good at something, you need to be paid. I mean, if I am a good writer, and if you ask me to just do it for free, is it proper? Is that fair? It is not. I've worked hard for my craft and these players have bugged their asses off.
Rory McElroy deserves every single dollar he makes on the golf course and every sing year old dollar he makes off the golf course. Scotty Scheffler is on a run like we have not seen. However much money he makes for the tournaments he wins, he deserves it because he's such a great player, and Joey, you and I both know as well, you play well. Money is a big part of that, and you know more than anybody coming from not a big golf nation, the holy grail is to get to the United States so you can make
a living, so you can make real money money. I mean, if you look at the guys that have gone over, I mean there are a lot of players that once they got to the US and played in the US, the financial rewards of playing in the US were just so much greater than they were from any of the other places that you could possibly And that's also why a large majority of the international players, once they make it on the PGA Tour, where do they all move
to move to the US. Yeah, that's where they moved because exactly, and we've always known, that's where the money is. If you want to be a superstar in global golf, the money is making it to the PGA tourah. Yeah, the trophies in the legacy are good, absolutely, but the real reason why people are going there is because the purses are more.
Absolutely, if you are not rewarded that way, why would you. I mean I was I was having an interesting conversation with Unyo about a couple of years ago eu Henya Chakara and and there was one comment that really stood out for me. He said that when he was offered the live to play on Live, and he told his dad and he said that if I had told my dad that I'm not going to go to Live, my dad would have slapped me then and there and.
Said, you're crazy enough to take this financial opportunity.
And it has opened so much, so many doors for the college players. I mean everything that the PDIA Tour is now doing.
It pore you is a reaction.
Yeah, it's it's after that.
And Joey, you've also known, like all of us involved in professional golf, the Eye Test PG Tour you should have happened fifteen years ago. The players were good enough. Fifteen years ago we were seeing these players come through
with no fear. And it wasn't until and so all of the negative stuff that I hear a lot of people talk about with regards to live coming into professional golf, one of the positive things is it forced the PGA Tour to look at the universities and go, we have to find a way to get give these great players a pathway directly to the PGA.
I think that's that's one of the best things to come out of it. Otherwise you had to be like massively talented and to get into the pediator the very next year. If somebody like you Heno, who's such an amazing talent, or David Pute, if they had to wait a couple of years just to try to get into a good door, how bad that would be for world golf. You know that somebody like that has to has to just struggle.
I think it's really interesting. You know, we we like in golf this story of struggle. You know, we love hearing stories that. You know this Jake Napkin, he was a bouncer two years ago. We had to go get a job as a bouncer because he couldn't continue to afford to try and play competitive professional golf. We don't hear that story in any other professional sport. We don't like in America, there's nobody playing in the NFL who's also an uber driver, who's got a second job.
You have Barry Henson, but.
You know what I mean, there is nobody currently playing in the English Premiership. There are no Formula one drivers there's no one playing on the England national cricket team, there's no one playing on the on the on the All Blacks, the New Zealand rugby team, that has another job. They are paid professional athletes. But in golf there is
this want for struggle. We want to see guys struggle, and I just don't get where that comes from, because there's no other walk of life other than professional tennis. I think is the only thing that's similar. But why do you think it is that we want golfers to struggle so much.
One part of it is probably inspiration and motivation. Everyone looks for a story where you know, you can tell that, okay, he was he was son of a greenskeeper and he has become what he is now. I mean, it's always a great story. So that is definitely a part of it. But I mean you're right in the sense that we don't talk.
Okay.
I mean, like, if I take the example of cricket, I mean there are there are obviously, you know, players like for example, one of our players who did really well against England and the ongoing Test series, he comes from a very poor family. He stayed on the streets in Mumbai. Those are all very inspirational stories. But will we be talking in the same breath and the same stories about ten years from now when he's an established member of the team. I don't think so. Yeah.
And you know, there's also this big thing with the PGA Tour that there's this narrative that all the people that left the PGA Tour for live. Everybody says, how could you possibly turn your back on the platform that gave you all of these things? Yet nobody has any problem with Basically, over the last twenty five years, the majority of the European Ryder Cup team, where do they all live? They live in the US. Where do they all play their golf? They play? Think about the tournaments
that the guys that support Europe go back for. They go back for co sanctions events. Now they're not. John Ram's the only one. John Ram is the only guy. I mean, Roy McElroy didn't even play the Irish Open, right, yeah, right, He moved to America and basically played almost the majority of golf. Listen. I don't have a problem with that.
I don't have any problem with that. But this thing that all the guys that left the PGA Tour and went to library goes, how could you turn your back on the tour and the platform that gave your start. Luke Donald lives in America. I don't. I mean he he left Europe so fast, like everybody left. I don't have any problem with that, because the PGA Tour was the only thing in town. It was the show, right. I asked Victor Hovland this year, how many real European
tour events will you play in twenty twenty four? Not Wentworth, not not Scotland, not the Clue, any of the real European.
He said, maybe.
And if you look now, you can win DP World. Now you win the race for Dubai and play all the majors, play the big events, play one of the big events in the Middle East, and then play the co sanctioned PGA Tour events was and never really play any European Tour events and win the Order of Merit. We see that every year every year.
I mean, there are so many tournaments on the dp WILL Tour, which the field you would really want it to be better. I mean some of the sponsors, because most of the stars they just go out to and I mean Ryan Fox, Minwooli. These guys have got an opportunity, they will go and play over there. They they were the big stars of last year. And talking about platform, one thing that I'm very clear of God is that the are not the platform that you know makes up
the player. I for me, the platform is mom, dad, brothers and sisters. If they don't give you that kind of support growing up, if they don't financially support you those when the player becomes a player, it's only that family and the and the near by relatives or the first coach who has done all the hard work, that is the platform. If the if the pediator says that you're showing us your back now that we have established you,
that's wrong because they are not the ones. The coaches, the early coaches, and the parents, I think they are the platform. And if by coming to live or going to the pediator you can make them happier and financially well off, why not.
It seems to me like anybody that will have to PJ Tour is turning their back on this platform that gave them their start, and they should be loyal to that. But I haven't seen anybody really be one hundred percent loyal to the Asian Tour or the DP World Tour once they had I mean, I talked to Matthew Pavaughan. I said, Matthew, Matthew one of the guys, one of the ten guys now that got a full PGA Tour card on the PGA Tour this year. He played in Europe his whole career. He won Tory Pines this year.
I asked Matthew the same thing, how many real European Tour events will you play this year? And he said none, He's going to focus on the PGA Tour. But nobody looks at Matthew, but one it says, how could you turn your back on the platform that the year everything the European Tour did for you. And here's the other thing. All we've listened to for the last three years is talk about money, money, money, and everybody say it, it's not about money. It's not about money. It's about trophies,
it's about legacy, it's not about money. But the European Tour is no longer the un European Tour. The European Tour is known as the DP World Tour. They have a corporate sponsor. But it's not about money. But the European Tour is no longer the European Tour, It's the DP World Tour because they had to go find a sponsor before the PGA Tour came to bail them out. This special relationship, in this agreement between DP World and the PGA Tour. Now the ten best players every year
are going straight from Europe to the PGA Tour. But yet there's a big people get Certain people get really upset if you say, well, basically the European Tour has just become a feeder tour to the PGA Tour. But doesn't it seem like that is what's happening.
It is and you know it has. It has happened. Whenever play gets better, I mean like Nick Faldo got rent to the PDIA to marry McIlroy went to the Pediator. You always tend to gravitate where you think your best life is, your best competition is. You always go towards that. What is happening right now is that the only problem I have. The pathways are good. I mean, ten cards is an amazing thing for a deep world toe play. If if somebody like my country made Chubhanker gets a
card to the Pediator, I'll be delighted for him. He'll be delighted for himself and his family, you know. But the thing is that they still have to figure out a way how to make apart from the few Rolics Series events, how to make the other tournaments more stronger
on the DP world. Yes, and otherwise. I mean, for example, last year we had the Abuda BHSV Say Golf Championship and there were only two players in the top fifty who were playing that week, Shane Lowry and Tommy Fleetwood or top thirty, I would say, and that was to make it Jane so much so that you know, the tournament is now towards the back end of the season. Yep.
So well, the running joke at any time you went to Dubai, anytime you went to Abu Dhabi, anytime you went to Guitar, the running joke was the five to six pay players that were paid to go there were getting paid more than the prize fund. If you look at it, if you look at Abudabi and Dubai over the last twenty years, and you look at the prize fund, but you look at the superstars, the global superstars that
played one over there from the PGA Tour. Anybody that thinks they're going over there to win three hundred grand fly fifteen hours just out of the goodness of their own heart. They're all going over there because they're getting paid.
And then the other dirty little secret that nobody talks about is if you were a young player beforehand, before PGA Tour, you you signed with a management company, and one of the reasons you signed with that management company is they say, listen, and we've got big stars that are gonna be playing. We can use our influence to get you in. So the bigger players they've got, they
can use those. So this idea that everybody just gets it everywhere off of hard work and all of this stuff, I think live coming onto the scene is kind of somewhat pulled the curtain back a little bit of how the sausage is made. But we all kind of know how the sausage has been made, and it's not necessarily sometimes the prettiest business. I mean, you've seen it as someone that has traveled all over the world. You travel to regular PGA Tour events, you travel to majors, you
travel to a number of tournaments the tours. The average golf fan I don't think wants maybe sometimes to know how all of this is run.
Well, that's true. See, it is always to get a superstar to a tournament. I mean, one incident that I will never forget is when Tiger went to the Middle East for the first time and played the Dubad as a classic and he had that iconic photo shoot over over burgell Arab. You know, he was paid tons of money for that. But the kind of return on investment that he gave that week with those pictures on the on the front page of New York Times, on the
front page of Washington Post. I mean, the money being paid making sense is what has to be the benchmark for every investment of yours, many of these players. When Phil went to the Abu Dhabi for the first time, I mean there were reams and reams of papers dedicated to Phil and and how how he is, you know, the magician, magician with the short game and things like that. There was so many articles in the at least about him and other parts of the world as well. It
makes sense. But yes, money is the driving factor.
Absolutely, J Monahan. It would seem came out of hiding this week. Have you been surprised, Joy with everything that's going on in professional golf currently that I think this is what the third time we've seen Jay in front of a microphone since the US opened, since he was in front of a microphone with Yaser from the PIF. Are you surprised, given where global golf is, where professional golf is, that we haven't seen Jay more often.
As the head of the Pedator, And given that the most talked about thing right now is the Pediator and the PIF investment into it, and the fact that everyone who is interested in golf and interested in the PIA Pedator and live golf wants to know where this when this merger the merger is not the right word, but when this investment is going to happen, and things like that.
He needs to be and and since he started the initiated the entire thing and the June six U talks that we had, he should be more in the forefront. And I'm surprised many of the players actually don't know what's going on.
I continue to be surprised that when we do now, I mean, listen, we see at home, we see I live in Jupiter, Florida. We see players all the time right. Over the last three years, I have been shocked at how little everybody that's on the PGA tour knows about what's going on. I've just been shocked. I mean you ask some qulture like, I don't know. I mean I don't know. Yeah, and I think, I mean Jay didn't. He didn't really say much this week. Now there is
an argument to be made. I mean, they say the sheer art of diplomacy is to basically speak and say nothing. That's half the art of diplomacy. And I think Jay's doing a great job at that. If you were on the PGA tour, would he have your confidence? Would he be someone that you think, Okay, if I look at what happened over the last three years, is he the guy to lead us out of this? Are you surprised? I think there are a lot of people surprised that that he still has a job given the way everything
was going. Are you surprised that he still has the confidence of the players, And are you surprised that he's still in the role that he's in, because listen, this is not COVID Live. I mean, Jay is He's had it pretty tough. I mean, it has been a tough go.
Yeah.
That is also why he makes over ten million dollars a year and flies everywhere on a private jet. Because if you're making one hundred brand a year, you don't.
Have to have decases round. So when you have to make.
Big decisions like Jay has to make, like a fortune five hundred CEO of a massive company. Yeah, they're difficult decisions to make. They're hard to make, but that's why you get paid the money. You get paid to make those decisions.
Uh, just just digressing a bit before I answer that. You know, the one thing that being with the many of the live golf players, one thing that really pleases me is everyone says that if they have got a suggestion or you know, if they want to say something to Greg, that it be implemented, starting with say the trows, the trousers, if you want to where your shots, you
are allowed to wear it. One thing that they have always said is that Greg is always willing to listen to the players and communicates to the players whatever he knows at that time. I think that is completely missing on the Pediator. It's I know it's a larger organization and things like that, but if you are heading that organization. You've got to have the trust of the players who are all your members, and I think that is something that Jay had maybe two years ago, but he completely
lost it in the last two years. So many of the players are still struggling, at least some of them who I've spoken to to really give the one hundred percent trust back to Jay. Even if the merger happens, or even if the piff and My investment happens, I think there will still be a question mark over how Jay went about his job in getting it done.
So where do you think all this plays out? I mean you, I don't think anybody knows. And I think that's the big question, right, I mean, where are we in your opinion? Where do you think we are in twenty twenty five? And what do you think the professional golf landscape looks like? And it's a question, Joe that I'm asking everybody because I don't because nobody knows, right, everything's just I guess everything's just kind of your experience.
But in your opinion, what do you see happening in twenty twenty five?
So the best case scenario or what I would really like to see is that I don't want a unification or anything like that. But there is a good working relationship between Pediator and Live Golf too, and if that means giving invitation to some of the players to the place they've been shaped, or finding a way that some of the couple of the wild cards are given to the Pediator players who want to come and play on
the live golf, that happens, you know. Having said that, my issue is that from June sixth to December thirty one there was a huge time frame for the framework agreement to be fructified, finalized and implemented and done. If it has not happened up until now, and now we are looking at another long gap till the Tour Championship,
I really don't think it will happen, you know. I think there are forces not sure about it, but there are forces which are against and now that they have got some kind of support from SSAG as well, so there are forces which are saying that do we need to go that way? So it might just not happen.
I've never heard the fans be talked more about, and I never heard the product be talked about. I mean, you've been around perfectly. Did you ever hear anybody talk about the product. Nobody talked about the product and the type of product we were putting out and the type of product professional golf was putting now. I mean, nobody talked about the product five years ago, And to be honest with you, I didn't hear anybody in global golf from the PGA Tour, from DP World Tour Asia before it.
Nobody talked about the fans. Nobody talked about what the fans wanted the tours, and the majors just basically did what they wanted, ran the tournaments however they wanted, and nobody talked about the product. Now, all anybody talks about, in my opinion on the PGA Tour is you just talk about the product all the time. And I'm wondering where this talk of the product came from.
I honestly believe it has come from live you know, because I've seen. I've seen. I'm probably one of the few journalists who has been to ten, twelve, at least thirteen of the live events, and one thing that I've noticed is that every time I go, they've tried to do something better for the fans. I mean, look at the graphics on the on the you were in Hong Kong and that entire digital screen that was put up
on the first t that was so impressive. The kind of you know, infrastructure that they put up for the fans was so impressive.
Well, Rory in his press conference yesterday at the Players, he was talking about bigger events where there's other things around the events that it's just not golf, that there's more fan engagement, there's all this other stuff. And there are a lot of people that think that kind of sounds like what Live tried to do and what everybody was so adamantly against. Do you think that all of
this change regardless of what side you're on. And again, I'll keep saying this, you don't have to You can watch and consume your golf.
Yeah, you just have to be golf fan. That's wherever you want to watch idiator or a live golf fan, you need to be a golf fan. That's that's what I keep saying to everyone. You can enjoy Pediator as much as you can enjoy a live golf. There is a completely different product over there, and you can absolutely enjoy it. I mean, the telecast of the product is so great good that they live golf, So yes, what Rory said, and I mean, just just to give you an example of Claude and you have seen it around.
All the teams have been asked on Live Golf to do sustainability and community outreach programs whenever they go anywhere, and so many communities are benefiting from that. I mean, like from what time from that, For example, the iron Heads did something at a public golf course in Hong Kong. You know that all the teams do something. You know, with any organizations, charity is those kinds of stuff. I mean, I don't know if Pediator has a lot of charity, and oh of course they they have, but do they
do that many activations in one tournament? I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm an eight to sixteen activations at least in a week.
Listen. I think there's room for both. And I've always thought that, you know, this misconception that the golf on live isn't good. I mean, you've been to as many golf tournaments as I have. The finishes have been good. Yeah, You've been to as many golf tournaments as I have. You've traveled to Asia, You've traveled to the Middle East, You've traveled to Europe. One of the knocks against the lift tournaments from the people that don't like him, as
there's nobody out in these tournaments. Listen, I was I. I was with phil in Abu Dabi when he came over. There was nobody at that tournament. You've been to a lot of tournaments in China and an Asia. They don't get the fans that they get in the United States. There were a lot of European Tour. I've been traveling on the European Tour since two thousand and two. I've been to more tournaments on the European Tour with no
fans than I have been with fans. Right, if you asked me over the course of the twenty some odd years that I've traveled on and off the European Tour, and I worked full time on the European Tour for three years. In the twenty some odd years that I've been to European Tour events and watch them, I can list more tournaments that didn't have fans than did so
the product all over the place is different. But last week in Hong Kong, again going back this idea that one of the knocks I bent, everybody saying they went to live to grow the game. I'm not saying that that was one true but last week in Hong Kong, they've never seen that many of the world's best players in one place at any one time, and I think that I think it's been very interesting that Jay's comments at the players this week is golf is a global game.
But the PGA Tour, I mean, what year was it. We're all four of the wgc's the World Golf Championship. Weren't all four of them in the United States one year?
But where are the wgc's too biggest?
We're gone now?
Yeah, And that was one one way that the global stars could have been, you know, showcased. So they used to be at least three of Poasian Tour players, three or four Australian players.
Japanese tour players.
Where are the WGCs now?
And that's Rory's been talking about that in recent months. He's been talking about taking the game, taking the PGA Tour to I think what we saw, you know, from a lif standpoint in Hong Kong was great. What we saw last year in Adelaide, I mean, if there's a country that stars for real professional golf, I mean, if Jay Monahan wants to wants a good idea, put a PGA Tour event, a full field PGA Tour event in Sydney or Melbourne and make it a designated event, and
it would be unbelievable. I mean it would be everybody would watch, it would sell out. And is there an argument to me made one of the positives of Live is it is maybe going after a more international sector as opposed to just focusing solely on the US and the PGA Tour.
Absolutely, I think what Adelaide, what Hong Kong has shown is that there's so much appetite for the game, you know, globally, hum it has to go out. If it has if golf has to grow, it has to go out to these parts of the world world. And if Rory talks about the global Tour and what Live is already doing, I think if periodor starts doing it, so deep World Tour is coming to Asia for the Asian swaying, you know, I mean, there are going to be a couple of tournaments.
You know.
If you if you tell me that somebody like Fachara Congwat Mai from Thailand is not the best high player at the moment, or if you say that Anirban Lai is not the best Indian player at the moment, and if they don't get into these tournaments. Thankfully, Anirban has gotten into the Indian Open, but that is that is a different I mean, he's the leading Indian and it's the Indian Open. But other Deepi World Tour events, they have not really given the opportunity to the local players.
And the converse is that when somebody something like this is happening over here, I say International series is happening over here, or when it was happening in a in Oman, DEEPI Wiltour was not giving release to the players because there was a concurrent event which was being held on the on the DEEPI Wiltour, even if they are Asian players.
So these are some of the things which actually seem very pretty petty to me right now, and and these are things that have to be gotten over if if you want the game to grow in all parts of the world.
Plus a joy talking about growing the game. India one of the most populous countries on the planet. Give me your take, because I don't think there's anybody that has their finger on the pulse of Indian golf the way that you do and you write about it all the time. What do you like about where Indian golf is right now? And what do you think we're going to see in
the next five years? And and give me some players both on the men's and the women's side that that you think that we're going to be hearing about on a golo on a global stage from India in professional golf moving forward.
Uh, you know the thing right now is that the girls are playing phenomenal golf. So I mean, Aditi is doing Aditya Shok is doing really well on the Lvdator. There are a couple of girls dick Sha and you know, girls like Brandavi were doing very well on the l T. The boys have been left a little behind. But then we always have somebody like to look up to.
Here he's playing, I mean, he's playing some of the best golf I've seen him play in a long time. And anybody that thinks that honor Bandlea here if he was playing on the PGA Tour wouldn't be You wouldn't see his name on a leaderboard. He's just crazy, right, I Mean, that's the type of player he is. He's got world class game this week in Macau. We've got some of the old guard of of of Indian golf. Jeef Milkha Singh, one of my favorite players, one of
my favorite people, Shif Kapor. But a guy like Honor Bond. For Bond now, Joey, how important do you think Bond's success, whether whether you like where he's playing or not. Forget all that Bond's success, How does that play in India for this next generation? Because one of the things I think that is really important for growing the game of golf in the developing nations is for that. Yes, everybody's hero.
If you're a young golfer from Thailand, your hero is Scotti Scheffler, It's John Rahm, it's Roy McElroy, It's the global superstars. But what I think helps grow golf in the developing nations is for the young golfers to be able to look at say, okay, he's from Yeah, okay, Roy McElroy. If you're a young golfer in India, you have a hard time relating to him. Right, he's from Northern Ireland, he lives in America. Right, he plays his golf.
But if you can touch and feel a golfer who's from your country or from your city or town where you grew up with and he was a member of your club and you got to see, touch and feel him.
Yeah.
I think those stories for Indian golf on the big stage with the success that the ladies are having on the LPGA, but on the bigger stage, I think it is hugely important to help grow professional golf in the developing countries. To have a superstore that you can say, Okay, yeah I can I grew up like he did. He grew up like I grew Yeah, don't you agree?
Yeah? Yeah. So if if I just begin with the professional golfers who are not part of LIV, who are playing on the Asian Tour, who are playing on the PGTA, one of their dreams now is to be part of the Lift golfs. I mean, and money is a consideration. Let me not you know, try to hide that money is the main consideration. I mean that they know that if they are on lif Golf, they can earn a lot of money. So he has somebody like an Urban
has already influenced his peers. But you know, I mean just some of the young kids I was have been speaking to some of the juniors, and everyone wants to be like an urban Larry. I mean they know that if I mean he has come second four times on the on the on Live Golf already, they know that he has won more than two million dollars with each of those things. Place finish money is a big factor, and even the young golfers, they are influenced by it.
I mean they want to be like Tiger Woods and when fifteen majors, but they also want to be like Tiger Woods and have that kind of villas and look after their family everybody like their own jet.
Yeah, like Tiger and Rory have. I mean the funny thing that I think it's been so funny through all this joys if you look at Rory McRoy, I mean the two lightning rods over the last Roy's kind of softened his stance right over the last yeah, six months, since the merger talks, he's kind of yeah, he's walked back a little. But for a while it was Rory and Greg kind of going out at each other. They were the two kind of lightning rods, and I looked
at kind of their careers. Yes, Rory's won four majors, Greg's only one, two. But everybody looks at Greg Norman's career and thinks he was an underachiever in the majors. The last time Rory won a major was two thousand and fourteen. If I told you in twenty four that Rory would only have four majors, you would not believe me.
You'd think he would have ten majors by this point, right, And so when I looked at how many wins they had, I mean, when Rory won in Canada a couple of years ago, he referenced, I've got one more win than Greg on the PGA Tour. If you looked at there was a point last year where the amount of PGA Tour wins and European Tour wins for Greg and Rory were almost kind of identical. They're both seen as the iconic superstars of their generation. They both dominated professional golf
by their driver. They're both currently famous for not being able to get it done at Augusta National, which is a golf course for both Rory and Greg Norman. If you could design golf courses for both of them, those would be the perfect golf courses. And I just they both have the same make of private jet yeah, right. They both live in West they both live in the same city, in the same state in America. They both
left their home country and their home tours. And when I found it fascinating for as much as those two butted heads publicly, how eerily similar their careers are. They are the iconic players of their generations, right, they are the ultimate. You ask anybody currently playing here this week, who do they want to be, They're gonna tell you they want to be Rory McRoy. They want his career, they want his life off the golf course, they want
his stature. Twenty fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, you talked to a lot of young players before Tiger came out, who do they want to be? They wanted to be
Greg Norton. He was the store. And I just found it fascinating that as much as those two were kind of going at each other, how similar, their careers really were very similar type careers, just the greatest players of their generation, icons And they were going at each other in the press, and I was just like, you two are so close to each other, you don't realize it.
That's that's so true now that you pointed it out. I mean exactly I think I was a little surprised by Rory's vehement criticism. I mean, he didn't criticize Saudi as much as he criticized liv God. But Rory is someone who actually spent a lot of years in the Middle East, and he knows that changes. Yeah, and he has seen the kind of changes and the kind of people you have over there. I mean, Cloud, you lived
over there in Dubai, have you? I mean, the Arabs are one of the most hospitable people in the world.
And they love golf.
They love everything that gives them joy. Like you know, I'm in Dune bashing, you know, cause they love their stuff, they love people. I don't know why there's so much of you know, Saudi influence on live golf and things like that. Why should that really matter? I mean, if one of the things that I keep telling many of the journalists is why don't you come to Saudi and just have a look? Well, I think it's been interesting enough changes they have made over.
The last three years. Joy. I think it's been interesting that some of the most vehement critics of Live in the Saudi involvement and professional golf have never been to a tournament. Yeah, Will openly tell you they don't watch and they have such staunch opinions of it. And I think one of the reasons why a lot of the Live players have spoken so freely about the PGA tour is they were on the PGA tour for twenty years. DJ was on the PGA tour up until he went
to Live for almost fifteen years. They know what the PGA tour is like, they know what that infrastructure is like, they know what that ecosystem is like. And I've found it fascinating that a lot of the people that have been so fiercely, fiercely anti Live have no involvement at all. They don't talk to anybody, they don't interview anybody in the live ecosystem. I mean, I look at a lot of you know, I think we're starting to see some of the some of the podcasters start to bring in
some guys. But for two years, all anybody did was basically shit all over Live and it was the root of all evil, and they basically lived in their own eco chamber of just no, no, we know exactly what it's like. I'm like, how do you know what it's like? You say you don't even watch it? And I just I hope in twenty twenty five, Joy, maybe we get to a point with Rory kind of softening some of
the things he's saying. Billy Horschell saying this week the Players Championship maybe should If the majors are inviting players that are from live, maybe they could do the same thing if they want the Players Championship to be seen as the fifth major. If I told you two years ago or a year or if I told you two years ago Billy Horschell was going to be at the Players Championship in twenty four saying maybe we jay should
invite live players, nobody would believe that. So maybe in twenty twenty five we just get back to what professional football soccer is around the world is. If you want to watch the Italian League, you watch the Italian League. If you want watch Spanish England, wherever. There's great golf being played all over the world.
Absolutely, there are.
Great players playing all over the world, and regardless of where they're playing and who they're playing against, you know, pre live. If somebody wins four tournaments in Europe, they are getting an invite into Honda, the old Honda. Yeah, they are getting an invite into Wells Fargo. They are getting an invite into Memorial, They're getting an invite into Tampa.
We've seen that, We've watched that, I've lived watching that, and maybe we get back to a point in twenty twenty five to where some of the heat and the sting of all of this taken out and we realize that this is just basically what happens in every single
walk of life. And I've always thought this joy that there is this contingent of golf fans and people involved in golf that want golf to be this Truman show y thing that never changes, right, That golf's like it was in the forties and the fifties and the sixties, and it's gotta be the same and it won't change. And I think maybe one of the positives of Live coming in has made everybody kind of pivot and go, Okay, hey,
what is the product? Yeah, because I never heard anybody talk about the product before.
Nobody thought that golf could be a five hour thing. The entire date of a tournament would be a five hour to six hour window where it can all be done. And when that is important. You don't expect the fan I mean, obviously Saturday Sunday is another matter. But if he wants to come on Thursday, and if he has got six hours and comes and watches almost the entire action out there, how good is that?
And you've see that, you think the majors hold the key? Do you think the four majors really do hold the keys to the two kingdom more than the tours? Do?
I think they do? Once once they start inviting the players, which which Masters has set a good president by inviting fucking quite a few lift players have earned their way back into the Open Championship. But if we get majors to give out at least to start with two or three invites to the top two three players on lift golf, let's make a start. I mean, these are great golfers. These are golfers who have got not just you know,
history behind them. They have talent, they have they have the will power to win, and.
They're winning tournaments, yeah, all over the world wherever they play, whether they're seventy two whole no regular cut events, if they're I mean, we're seeing David Peuge and Waco and Cordo and Team Burmaster and Louis. We're seeing these players go and play all over the world, and it was never a surprise if you saw a it wasn't a surprise. To go over and see Justin Rose play in Singapore and be on the leader board not a surprise. And
I don't I don't understand why players. I think players should have the freedom to play and play wherever they want. I personally think that's that's gonna help Joy. These decisions will be made by people a hell of a lot smarter than you and I boy, but I think you're doing fantastic, fantastic writing, and keep up the good work. And if you want to know what's going on with Indian golf, joys your man. Joy, Thanks for talking to us.
Thanks God really enjoyed it.
So I thought that was a very very interesting perspective and a different perspective than than maybe some of you that listened to the pot I've heard. But I thought Joy touched on a lot of really important subjects and listen, I don't think anybody knows what's going to happen in world golf. I think it's all just kind of speculation
at this point. But I think Joy's kind of global view and the fact that he has been a Globe trottle and writes about golf not only just on the PGA Tour and on the DP World, but writes about golf in India, writes about golf in Asia, and I thought that was a really, really good one. I want to thank everyone for listening. Son of a Butcher comes to you every Wednesday. We will see you next week.