Gil Hanse

from a major championship standpoint. I mean, Gil seems to be that guy right now that all the governing bodies UM, specifically the US Open. Uh, they seem to be choosing Gil to come in and do a lot of the redesigns we talked about that. Um. He did a redesign of the of the wing Foot course that Bryson Dashambo

won the US Open. On redesign of the U S Open course the country club that Matts Matt's Fitzpatrick went on past year and Los Angeles country Club, Uh redid that one and that's where the U S Open will be held this year. UM. I love his work. UM. I like him as a person. I think he's a really really cool guy. I like the aesthetic and UM listen.

Golf architecture is is a hot topic, right UM, from an aesthetic standpoint, from a UM distant standpoint, from a design standpoint, and and Gil is definitely at the forefront of golf course architecture in two. So sit back and enjoy the interview with Gil. Hands Well, Gil, thanks UM for taking the time to do this. UM. We've had I've had golf instructors, I've had professional golfers, but to UM get a golf course architect like yourself, that's a that's a huge thing. And UM, I'm super excited to

talk to full disclosure. When I was younger, my dad was building uh south Shore Harbor and clear Lake, Texas for UM Bruce Devlin and Voneggie and I worked in the summertime on helping him build the golf course. So you know what it's like, it's that's the only way to do it, get your hands. It is amazing, you know when you look at what golf course has become. I mean that experience has always kind of shaped my

view of it. You know, we were you know, putting in the drains and the bunkers and then filling it up with the gravel, and you know, they were still filling, you know, grading the lake parts, and then then they were shaping the greens. When you when you see a golf course, um, from start to finish, it is an amazing process. And it's something that I think for someone like you to get to do that on a regular basis, it must just be an amazing experience. It is, and

and and first and foremost it's fun. I mean to see you know, you see probably you know, with with what you do, you see a progression. I mean maybe you're you're that good that you see instant results, but you know, you work with a student and you see the progression over time and and from us it's like a daily thing you can at the end of the day. I've I've said this before. My favorite time on site is when we shut the machines off and we get out of them and we look at what we've accomplished

that day, and you can see what you've shaped. You can see the creation all of these things. And I think that's number one is rewarding goes quiet and you were finally got the machine, and and number two, the sons usually going down. And so it's just that special special time on site. But having the ability to see a daily result over and over again, and then you know, shifting landscapes, different projects, et cetera is one of the

more rewarding parts of what we get to do. Why golf instruction for you go, I mean, talk me through. You know what made you get into this, why you did it, and how you started. Yeah, it's um. I came to golf, you know, later, like I was sixteen. I think my grandfather was the only golfer in our family, and he hung the moon as far as I was concerned, just idolized him. I've never met a nicer man, and just the way he handled himself, it was it was

a great role model. And when he invited me to go play golf, it was like yes, And I think I fell in love with the golf landscape. Then. I'm not sure if it was because he was in that golf landscape or whether it was just the beauty of it. I've never seen anything like that or experienced it. And then it got to be a point where I just you know, over time went along and you went to school study political science and history, which was where I thought I was going to go with me. I had

the I had the exact same major. By the way, did you really industry? So you know, yeah, you know exactly. It's like, okay, now what are you doing to have that? So I wound up going to Cornell and studying city and regional planning and not landscape architecture. And I met a guy named Tom Griswold who subsequently went on to work for Tom Fazzio for years and years. He was studying to be a golf architect. And I went home. Tras and I were engaged at the time of Mary

thirty six years. I went home and said, listen, you can do this. You can actually become a golf architect. I doodled holes for forever, and it was gonna mean another year of school because I didn't have a design undergrad but she was incredibly supportive and switched gears right then and there. So it was. It was not a linear path by any stretch of the imagination. But come to say, and I'm sure it helps you as well.

You know, the history of the game, understanding appreciating it if through your eyes, the evolution of the golf swing and equipment and technology through our eyes, the evolution of golf courses and especially when we deal with a lot of these great old clubs. That's an important part of it. And you know as well, club politics are brutal, so having an understanding of, you know, sort of the political science,

how you deal with people, how you handle people. So while it wasn't a direct benefit to me, it's it's had. It's that degree combination is paid off over the years. You said that you did a lot of drawings and stuff like that. I mean, I think, you know, fifty three, um, you know, we're certainly not young people. And I think now you can go you can go online and look at all of the great golf courses. There's videos, there's

so much content, there's so much information out there. But when I was growing up, my dad had all these great old books and there were the you know, the top hundred golf courses in the world. You know. It was a book, probably in the seventies, and I remember just looking through it and it had pictures of the holes and then it had like a little aerial map

of what the layout was. And I said, go on, take you know, magic markers and you know, draw all these you know, fancy holes and try and make golf courses and my dad was like, you have no idea, what the hell you're doing. That's never gonna work. But

I just loved the drawing in the the over. I remember we lived in Morocco and my dad was the first golf Royal Dar Salam Trent Jones um the fifty four holes there, and they they had I mean we moved there in the seventies and they had this like it's like a I guess it was a model of the golf course that you know that actually you know those old ones from the seventies. It was actually real, was big, it was really big, and it was covered in like a dome case and everything, and I just

always remember being fascinated by that. And then after the Ryder Cup in Paris, I went back to the World Arslan for the first time I back in Morocco since the seventies, and it was still there was still I mean, you know, it was like the little you know, the little tiny flags like kins and stuff, so well, I was always fascinated with it. Um. I read a quote that you said that your job is to identify which of the properties natural elements you want to emphasize. So

when you go and you look at a site. Um do you think in two gil we're getting for new build golf courses, We're getting more for you guys, more interesting sites then we have in the past. Because if you look at where great golf courses historically are being you know built, the old school ones, they're in urban areas, right. You know, if you look at you know, wingfo l A Country, claud Southern these are in urban, urban areas. And I think so many of the great, great new

build design golf courses are going to some amazing locations. Um, why do you think there is that push to do that now? I think we went through a period of time in the eighties and nineties and early two thousands scored golf development and design with the with a few exceptions obviously were predicated on golf as an amenity. Right, it was there to sell lots, it was there to feature housing development, or there were you know, golf wasn't

the primary focus. And then we went through a really steep decline in golf construction and new golf courses and starting in the early two thousand's and running for a period of time where nobody was building golf course. The only ones who were doing it were the visionaries, and you had Dick Young's capel at Sandhills a little prior to that. Then Mike Kaiser came along and Rich mac its stream Song, and so you had people who were

willing to embrace the vision of quality. Golf will attract people to go anywhere, right it's you're literally in the middle of nowhere, and a lot of these things. And we had the great fortune of Michael wal Ref doing the same thing at a Hoopie match club. So you you had people whose primary focus was golf first and foremost, and with the concept of you know, field of dreams building and they will come the thing that you pointed out, which was interesting, and it was nowhere near as remote.

But back in the day, you know L. A. C. C. Wingfoot, Southern Hills, they were outside the city. I mean, it was a lot of it took up people a long time to get there, so they were considered remote as it related to the modes of transportation at the time. My stay talks about that when he comes down to Seminole because my grandfather was the head grow there for forever and he grew up there. So where the when you go into Seminole on the left hand side, the

maintenance barn, the house that's there in. My dad says, listen, that's where we used to live. And he said, you know, when we came here in the you know, the forties and the fifties, this was just all sand dunes. There was nothing here. So you're it's actually the golf courses like Wingfoot, they were outside the city, but now when you go out there, they're so penned in. And one of the things that I think that's interesting that you mentioned.

I never thought of that. But a lot of the great, you know, the old school golf courses that they would want to have major championships at in two they're just doesn't the land and the infrastructure for everything that would take to have a major championship there. But you're right, I mean Southern Hills. We were just there for the p G. A that would have been way outside of the city back in the day. But you don't you don't think that that's that's a really interesting thought. You

mentioned Southern Hills. They just had the PGA there in two. Um I was there. Oh gosh, it's gotta be Oh one was the last time I was there for the US Open that um retief goosen, UM one kill. That golf course is unrecognizable from what it was twenty years ago. I mean I got there and I was like, I couldn't remember any of the holes because the golf course looks so so much different. Um. The task when you're

I mean you're being tasked. I mean, if you look at last year the major Championships, the country Club, you guys did work on that, Southern Hills, you did work on that. Um l A country club where the U S open is in three you've done work there, Wingfoot. Um. When you get the call to do something like this, is it not called that a golden era golf course gives you guys the call? Is it excitement? Is it? Um?

Wonder man? Is that? What's the feeling when you get the call and you know you're gonna get to get an opportunity to go to a place like the country club? You know that's you know eighteen hundreds, UM, wingfoot, all the history there. How much of it is excitement? Trepidation, responsibility that you feel that you've been given this huge task to basically take a master work of art and now change it. Uh, it's all of the above. I

mean all of the emotions that you mentioned. It's I'm still at heart of the biggest golf geek nerd when it comes to golf courses. I mean when I drive into the country, but I was still wave to the cardboard cutout that's sitting in the you know, the guard shack, and it's just these little things that you you have, these pinch me moments of wow. You know, they're they're trusting us with this, as you said, work of artist, masterpiece.

And I think you know, the way Jim Wagner and I have always approached these things is with the ultimate amount of respect for the original architect and trying to do the best we can and back to our history um degree, trying to really delve into what did they do here? What did Perry Maxwell do at Southern Hills. I don't care what Perry Maxwell it in Oklahoma City or at Colonial, it doesn't really matter. I don't care what Tilling has did at San Francisco Golf Club. What matters?

What did he do at Winged Foot and on and on? And I think that that level of precision and trust me, we were so lucky that we work at these great places that that they have great archives, so we can go back and look at aerial photographs of everage shot sequence of Bobby Jones when he won the nine US Open at Winged Foot. You know, those don't exist at some other places, and so you do the homework, You

do the best that you possibly can. When we found US Women's Amateur program at Oakland Hills that had photos of every single green complex were taken from the fairway, it was like the gold mine because now we could literally stand in the same place and look at that and try to recreate it. So it's a similar formula whether it's Oakmon or whether it's Winged Foot, or whether it's you know, the Creek Club or Sleepy Hollow or some of these great old courses that are never going

to host major championships. Yet still we we focus as much as we possibly can on getting all those details right and figuring it out. And then the other part of it is that we've got to trust that what Perry Maxwell did at Southern Hills in NI is still relevant to challenge somebody like Justin Thomas in two and to to test the best players. And the answer is yes. And I think that's one of the things that served

Jim and I the best is that we've granted. We have to add back tease, we have to shift bunkers, we have to do things to accommodate the distance that they play. But at the core of the golf course, the strategy and the interest and as you said earlier, finding the best natural features. These guys did all of that, and so we have to check our ego at the door and think, hey, we're not We're not going to

improve on tilling Nest. We're just going to restore what he did and try and get the picture as close to, you know, the image that was there when he first built the golf course. And if we can do those things, we just have to trust that that's going to be good enough. And you know this preparing players from major championships. We can do everything we want a need to with the course. The U s g A, the PGA can

do everything they need or want with the setup. But it's all gonna come down to the weather that week. You know, if it rains, the golf course is going to play one way. If it's bone dry, it's gonna play another way. If the you know, the crazy thing about Southern Hills is we had like all four seasons in one week. So those guys they had every single possible test, which was great, and I think that added tremendously to the championship. So I think it's learning several

things that we've come to accept. And for a while when we first started doing this, it was it was hard to accept. Is that, hey, once once the week of the championship starts, our hands are off the wheel. We've got nothing to do with it. And and two is just to accept that tilling as Ross Mackenzie. Those guys were so good at what they did that we'll just have to trust that their their architecture is going to be be good in this A zero as well. So let's take a quick break to thank our partner

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now let's get back to the interview. I read that in in doing some of the work you did at the country class at brook Law, and you looked at images, as you said about Oakland Hills from four, you're able to kind of look at the golf course and what it was, Um, Gil, why do you think so if you look at what you are being tasked to do with a lot of these great old school, Golden era golf courses, why do you think they have changed so much and you're taking it back to what it was?

Why couldn't they stay the way they were? Because a lot of times we see golf courses now that we go back to that that you guys come into and all the designers come in, and there's this push to take it back to the original design, what the original designer wanted. Why do you think golf courses evolved and change to where you're trying to take them back? Is it just evolution? Is it just what happens with trees

and earth and dirt that over eight years everything changes? Yeah, I mean it's it's harden to contemplate that somebody would ever put a limitum siting on a Frankloyd right house. But that happened. You know, people look at technology and what's new and what's and you also have to think that back in the day Donald Ross tilling Hast, they

weren't gods. They were just guys. And there were competitors of their as younger men who came along in the generation after them, who didn't have this reverence for their work, and they were more than happy to put their fingerprints all over it and change it in the in the basically under the guise of hey, we're modernizing because the game has changed so much. We've gone from hickory chefts

to skille chefs, we've changed golf balls, et cetera. Not unlike what happens, you know, it's just the history of golf and the reaction to golf courses have doesn't change. That's been was happening in the twenties, thirties, forties, and so those guys were not reticent at all to move a green below up a green, do this, do that, And so I think you had this period of time where and they also had heavy earth moving equipment come

into the construction process. You know, it wasn't mules and scrapers moving a green, It was a bulldozer and excavator just pushed it over there and go ahead and do it. So I think it was a combination of all those factors. The other thing that really added dramatically too, it was the Asian And when these guys built golf courses, you didn't have wall to wall irrigation. You didn't have the ability to go ahead. And and so what happens over time is when the first irrigation systems went in, they

weren't five row, they weren't three row. There were one row irrigation system. So that went down the center. And now all of a sudden, you've got this big open golf course with one row of irrigation down the center, and you've got this green swath and all this brown around it. Well, that doesn't look great. So what do

we do when we fill the space for treats. We start putting trees in where the irrigation doesn't get And now all of a sudden, the trees start to grow in and we start to change and alter the look of the landscape. And well, what do trees do? They grow? So eventually the trees grow, they filled the space. The golf course becomes narrower, just through that type of evolution.

So you have a combination of all these steps, and that's where you get to and then you don't get until maybe the late eighties when Frank Hannigan writes his piece on a w telling has and it's called the Forgotten Genius in the U. S G. A golf journal. And then the next thing you know, there's a Don Ross Society, and there'd be is this appreciation for great golf course architecture, and these Gulf architects become cult figures.

And then it becomes, as you mentioned earlier, part of the the Internet, and you can go on and you can google, and you can learn, and now there's a Reiner Society in Mackenzie society. And so this evolution gets us to where we are now, where you know, it's on the back of every scorecard is Seth Reiner design aw telling us and the clubs have appreciation. And thankfully, you know, there's a generation of golf course architects who also recognized that, hey, what they did pretty special. Let's

go back. So I think that's kind of the timeline of where we got to where we are, and we're we're really happy that we've been entrusted to what we think is do the right thing by putting that stuff back. When we look at the great golf courses. Um. You know, I went through and I saw that you listed your this was in but you listed your top ten golf courses in the world. St. Andrew's National Golf Links, Chicago Golf, Cycrus Point, l A C. C. Marion, Nearfield, Pine Valley,

Royal County Down, Royal Melbourne. All of those golf courses originally were designed by the great. Um. They stood the test of time. Yes, they've had some tweets to them. But what is it still that you think made those golf courses that you put on the list? What are the similarities, but what is what do you think made

them so great by the designers? Because if you look at what you all know now about grass, about agronomy, about the ability to be able to move earth and things like that, they they were so not like that. And I think there is this big push right now in golf course architecture. Wouldn't you agree that it's to

try and move as little earth as possible. And there was a time in the eighties, you know, the Nicolas stuff was all of these big pushed locks of hatchee on here in Jupiter, these big giant mounds everywhere Pete died did that at at Um the players came to all of this earth move and it seems to me there's this throwback move now to try and move as

little earth as possible. And if you look at the golf courses you listed as some of your favorites, they aren't they're they're not golf courses that have a lot of earth moving to them. You've never seen me swinging a golf club. So if you look, there are a lot of those are wide golf courses. I'm a big fan of options and width, and I think that a lot of what those courses do is they allowed the player to determine the way they're going to play the

golf courses versus the architect determining it for you. And so I think that's that's the best set of golf, is that the questions that are asked are compelling for the best players in the world, but they're also compelling for a thirty handicap, and they're also compelling for a ten handicap, And and so that there are options and ways to play. And I think that's a similar you know, with the exception of Pine Valley. Pine Valley asked questions and that you have to step up and hit a

golf shot. Bill Kittleman is the is the great old pro at marian who has worked with us on several projects. Turned ninety the other day, So shout out to Bill. Not that he listens to podcasts, but anyway, he was an amazing um mentor to Jim and I. But he you know, there would be occasional times where we put a bunker or something in or you to force carry and he would just look at us and say, you know, son, sometimes you just got to hit a golf shot, and

that's just part of the test. But I think in in by and large, those golf courses occupy great natural sites. The architects maximize the potential of those sites. They gave you options, They asked really interesting questions within the landscape. So I think that's what we look for. I think is is as they mentioned earlier, the move to these more remote sites were and and the questions that were asked to Mackenzie and Crump is you know, just build

us the best golf course. Not build us the best golf course and hide the car pest because we want have waldwell carcass, not build us the best golf course, and oh, by the way, we need a waterfall that we need to lake. Oh by the way, we need to photograph this. It was solely purely about golf. And I think that's ultimately what what led them to be

so great. And that's what the you know, the Mike Kaisers of the world, they're looking at there just saying, hey, find the best piece of property and build us something that's solely related and predicated on quality of golf. And I think if you look at those ten and you can quibble whether some belong, some don't, et cetera. And that's one of the great things about what we do, right we talked about golf, is why do you like this?

Why do you like that? I understand fully the Shinnecock Hills is probably a better quote unquote test of golf than national. But I'd rather play a national because it's just more fun, it's more interesting, there's more opportunities to play. But you, as as accomplished player, you might be like kid so much better than so there's and that's the great thing about that. We get to we get to argue the merits based on what we see, and there's

and there's no right or wrong. One of the quotes that I and and looking to talk to you today, I love that you said that the soul of what you were doing is trying is about the playing of the game, right, not about all of the other things. You know, Gil, I worked at Austin Golf Club, not Austin Country, but I worked at Austin Golf Club for Ben ben prenchase home course um that he did with Bill and I worked there for a year. And there was a new course that opened up in Austin. This

is like two thousand five, um, another new course. And somebody said, hey, Ben, have you played that? Yeah, I played at the other I thought it was great. And some guys said, yeah, well it was really really nice. But I mean a tour pro would just destroy that golf course. And and Ben crunch I said, you know there, there will never be a professional golf event at the

golf course, right. He said, if you look at all of the golf courses on the planet Earth, it's less than one percent that will ever have a professional golf tournament on there. But everyone that plays golf looks at it, I think through the lens of the professional right. So how do you balance all of this out, because obviously you're trying to balance out building golf courses, doing a restoration.

What say, at a place, you know, like Los Angeles Country Club, the members are going to play it, so it has to be playable for them, but it also has to be a test to professional golfers and an own thing. And you probably are. You're in the same

world that I am. I don't think our listeners realize the difference between professional golf, tournament golf, major golf, the caliber of shots, the type of golf you have to play to play those golfers, and then what the rest of us do who aren't on television right there is a massive difference. How do you balance it out between saying, Okay, what am I going to try and test here for

the players? You know, for a major championship, you know that if you're going into l A c C. The U S opens there in So whatever design work you're going to do to change a golf course to take it back to old pictures, and ultimately the showcase is going to be this June, this coming June, when the best players in the world or there. How are you trying to balance that test, Well, it comes down to

know two things. One thing that you know what Ben was talking about, which, by the way, Bill and Ben are they've been so so good to me and Jim and they're just the best just the best people but also the best designers and so h they're they're incredible. And from that standpoint, you know, but we all work for clients, right, Everybody seems to think, oh, well, Jill Hans thought that was a great idea to do a

hoopie match club. That was Michael all Rs idea, and he came to us and he said, Hey, I've got this crazy idea. I want to build a golf course where you don't ever write your score down you can play. And you were like, yeah, that's incredible. And so we have to work for what the clients looking for. If the client's goal is to host a major championship, like you know, we just built the new course of e G Frisco, which is going to host a senior interest

of that. Yesterday that that first kind of leaked out online again it looks very very minimal kind of that that bunkering that looks like kind of found object bunkering and things like that. Yeah, and and that's you know interesting we be We found nine holes and we had to construct nine holes, and so I'm hopeful that at the end of the day, Jim and I think, if you can't figure out which ones we built and which ones we found, then we've actually done a really good

job out there. Um So, but you're working for the client, and that ultimately is what you have to build your golf course for. Like if he's saying, hey, I want to I want to challenge all my buddies are single digits, and that's who's gonna play out here, and that's the reputation. Well great if it's you know what, No, my mom and dad are gonna play golf out here with me, and I want them to be able to enjoy the test of golf. So there's a lot of that baked

into new course design. From a restoration standpoint, it gets back to that whole just trusting the original architect and then ultimately, as they say, when our hands are off the wheel, when Carrie Haig and John Bodenhammer step on site for setting up major championships, and we have built such a great relationship with both those guys and their teams that we trust that they get it and they have ultimately goals for what they're you know, everybody says,

well they must have a target score. No they don't, because it's all down to the weather that week and the way that the setup ultimately works. But George Thomas at l ECC was such a genius that he figured out ways that's through the setup of the golf course.

And that's something that we focus a lot on. We focused in Frisco, we focused in Rio for the Olympics, was that on any given day, if the architecture is good enough, they can set that golf course up as hard as they want or as easy as they want. So if you give options to tuck pins or berry pins, where it actually you know the interesting conversation And I would ask you this question because the guys that you teach, you know, our angles relevant anymore? They hit it so

far so well. Did really care if they've got a bad angle coming into a green? Do they really care if the pins tucked up behind a punk? Or do they ever think? You know, do I want to get to this side? And I think a lot of what we see in major championship preparation is that that becomes more relevant because the penalties are that much more severe if you don't hit the shot the roughest, thicker is harder. You know, it's not like a regular tour set up

every week in, week out. And so I think ultimately, if the original golf architect has provided enough set up opportunities that um, you know, the Wednesday Seniors after lunch event at L A c C. Those guys can go out and have fun, and in June they can set it up so that it's difficult enough for the best players in the world, and you're spot on the difference in quality between what they what they do. I mean, people always say, well, how are you gonna Absolutely we're not.

You know, the golf course is going to be, the weather is going to be what challenges them, whether it's firm, and I think that's sorry to digress and ramble, but you know, that's ultimately the best defense if we have good architecture we have if the wind blows and if the golf course is firm, because you work with these guys and in my mind, I'm thinking you're working with them to have a predictable outcome every time they swing

the golf club. When they swing a seven iron. The outcomes predictable when they swing the driver, it's predictable, predictable. But when the ground is firm and bouncy, they don't. That's not a predictable predictable. Is it going to bounce twice and stop? Is not going to stop? Is it going to check? You know, those types of things ultimately add so much to the test, and those are completely out of our hands. So let's take a short break and we will be back right after this. Alright, let's

get back to the interview. I think one of the things in major championships, Gill, when we're walking around with players over the twenty years that I've been doing this, I don't think the people that are listening would would

they'd be blown away what we're talking about. I'd say the majority of the time when we're talking about non technical stuff on the golf course, from a strategy standpoint, at majors, it's all about where you want to miss it, right, And so there's this this spine line between talking about where you want to miss it and where you're trying to hit it. And I remember I worked years ago Trevor Immleman was a good friend of mine he has been in the podcast. Um, Trevor was too smart for golf, right.

His brain was just smart. He overthought everything and he would just obsess about outcome outcome outcome outcome outcome right. And we played a practice round with Tiger when he wanted Royal Liverpool where he just shot zero. We're super baked out and had that great round. Were never hit

driver when we played a practice round and tigering. This is like you know, in the day Tiger Tiger Mania and watching I mean Trevor watched the way Tiger and Steve Williams and around that golf course and everything was about Okay, that's where we're going to hit the golf ball. That's where we're going to hit the golf ball. And if we miss it, we miss it there. And that was it. It was point A to point B and if we are going to miss it, the miss is

better from here than it is from there. We're either going to lay short of these bunkers or we're going to take it over it. And I think it was interesting to watch a young kid early in his career like that. For drug Or, he was like, Tiger just

makes golf so easy. And I was like, yeah, because he focuses on where he's trying to hit the golf ball, and then he thinks about where he's going to miss the golf ball, if he's gonna miss it, And if you think about it, that's a pretty the pretty good philosophy. But we are doing a lot of from a technique standpoint, you know, we are doing a lot of the players looking out, Okay, can we get it over those trees? What's the risk versus the reward? Um? Obviously, Still, the

players I'm working with don't have distance issues. Right, there's this massive debate in you know, in my earned golf today. Um, distance, how do you deal with that as an architect? So I'll give you a great example of marrying in thirteen the the first part three is that part three in the composite three and um, it's a little into the breeze. And DJ was playing with Jeff Ogilvie and Lucas Clover. DJ hit three wood and came up short, and Lucas

and Jeff both hit driver and came up short. And as we're walking up to the green, Jeff Ogilvy looked at us and says, now, what a great hole? Huh? We all just missed the green with the driver and the three wood. And I think there is this philosophy for the average golfer that we've got to make golf courses longer and length But the players don't want that. The best players in the world who are the longest, don't want that. They don't want the golf clubs or

the golf courses to be longer. They want to be I think they want to be questions and forced to hit good shots. And as you know, the Rory mclroys of the world, the John ROMs, the Justin Thomas Is, the Dustin Johnson Campston, they want the golf course as hard as possible. They want hard golf courses. I mean we did, we've we've we've gone so much still in looking at players, We've looked at stats and going, okay, your type of golf is predicated on your good ball strike.

You're this again, using Trevor Immlement as an example. Trevor hated go into places like Palm Springs, hate going to places like that. I remember once I was working with him, this is like two three years ago. He was in Palm Springs and he was shooting. You know, he missed the cup and he's like, I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot a hundred when I go to Tory Pines next week. And I'm like, you'll play great at Tory Pines next week.

It was a hard golf course and he finished top ten and he was like, I have no idea how I finished top ten because I go to go to Palm Springs. I'm like, the was golf course. It's like you said, they're wide open, they're easy, there's no kind of premium. The best players in the world want their games to shine and be identified. So how do you, from a distant standpoint deal with that today because everybody's saying the golf ball and the players are too far.

A lot of it's just the natural constraints of the property, Like if you're dealing with an old golf course. We Jim and I believe strongly that we hate to create what we call it disconnect where you know what we what most of us love about great old golf courses. You walk off the green, you're pretty much right on the next team if you if you've got to create something, and you know, Wingfoot was one example, we're number twelve. You know you could you walk back a hundred yards

to to a t that's appropriate for them? I hate that we didn't create it. It was there, but it was one of those things where we don't want to break up the flow of the round of golf. Those guys are so used to just walking back that it's not like they're noticing the fact that they're walking back. You know, you and I might notice what this is

getting tiresome. Not that I'd ever played back there, but you know, we this is getting tire and so we try to as best we possibly can just say, hey, this is the distance that ultimately correlates the best with what Thomas was trying to do, with what Ross was trying to do, and that may wind up being seventy dred yards and that's fine, you know, and that's long, but it's not long for them. We don't feel there's there's nothing we can do to physically challenge those guys

with length. They can hit it so far it doesn't really matter. If it's just gonna be boring to watch that sort of thing. We'd rather have a more compelling and interesting test. And then the other thing you start to think about is, okay, do the math if we're trying to build and the the best golf courses in the world have the variety of shots. They have a Part three like the third at Marion Um, and then they have a Part three thirteenth of Marion that's a

hundred and twenty yards. You can't have a hundred and thirty yard Part three and a three hundred and ten yard par four and do the math and get to seventy hundred. So you start to sacrifice vice, the variety and the quality of golf holes in order to reach this mythical number. And so we don't we don't ever focus on the art each it's not the primary thing. Our primary goal is to create the best, the most

compelling and interesting set of eighteen golf holes. And on these major championship tests, um, you know that's been somebody else's work and we've stuck to that. We haven't said, oh, by the way, we could get fifty yards here, but it would just totally destroyed the way the golf hole was intended to be played. So we we just Jim and I are not on the sort of beating the bandwagon of Okay, we gotta roll the ball back. We go to this it's like, listen, the smarter people will

figure that out. We're just working with what we have. You know, could be next year that all of a sudden we gotta roll back. And now now we've got to think about shortenings and golf courses. But I think it's distance is never the primary focus. Withertain distance. But we also don't think that that's going to be, you know, the be all end. Now that being said, we built a golf course in Texas in Frisco that you know, if you stretch from back to back and back whole

locations back tiste can play yards. But that is really again just to provide options for Carrie Haig. You know, he may get a down wind and he may be able to pull a tea back fifty yards that because the winds blow howling out of and down wind And okay, now that makes sense, but it's within the context again getting back to set up as architecture from major championships. As as many tools as we can give those guys in their toolbox, then they're going to create a better

test for the best players in the world. But yeah, distance isn't it's nothing. It's not something Jim and I dwell on one of the things my dad has always said, Um, if you think about all of the great iconic par three's, they're not ten, they're not one nine. All of the great great par three's that provide from a major championship standpoint, they provide great theater. Um, you know twelve augusta true,

there's these great holes. I think I thought you guys did a great job with that little short hole at um the country Club this year down the hill. All the players, um Gil loved that. They all got there and went, oh, it's just really really cool, whereas you would think that they wouldn't think a short hold downhill. I mean that guys are hitting too much and stuff. But you know, if you missed that green, you're you're

struggling to get it up and down. Um, what do you think that is that all these great iconic par three's aren't super super long, and they tended to be

a kind of cool, almost funky design. I think that, I mean, from our perspective, the hardest souls to designer long part threes, because they're already hard by their nature because they're long, right, and so you're asking somebody with one shot to hit a green with a wood in their hands, not to hit a fairway, hit the green, and then so what do you do to make them

more difficult? You don't want to put water on let me one, put bunkers all over them, whereas a lot of the more iconic holes have got sit in in the landscape beautifully, and because they've got bunkers around them, because it's a hundred and thirty or a hundred and forty yards, or there's an ocean along the side of the gulf hole because you know, it's all right, it's not that long. So I think it's a combination of all of those things. Is how do you make long

holes interesting? And I've talked to tour players and they look at long part three and then I'm like, yeah, you know, I just want to hit the green and get out of here with three and move on. There's

never any sort of feeling of aggression. And architecturally, as I mentioned before, we don't feel like physically we can do anything to challenge those guys with length, and so the focus then goes back to the mental and a hole like eleven at the country Club last year, if those guys have a wedge in their hand, they can't help but be aggressive. It's just not in their d n A. They can't stand there and I'm gonna try and miss this fifteen feet short, so I got an

uphill put. Yeah, they're looking at the yardage showing okay, yeah, I'm just growing right out. If it's one one fifteen downhill, You're right. No matter where they put the pen, where they put it front, right, front, left, back, where wherever they put that pin in the tournament, and that whole significant bearing on the championship. I'm Scottie Shuffler. If he played that whole, you know, if he'd parted, he probably

would wins the US Open Championship. And so it's one of those things where we understand that there's a certain mentality and aggression that that, and we almost want to give them enough rope that if they take take the bait, then we've got them. And I think Pete I was

so good at that. You know, we think about the angles that he set up, and you know that a player will look at a shot and go, okay, what's my cover on the hazard, what's the distance to the whole, And okay, if the cover is this and the distance is that, then they're like, all right, I know I can't be short. But if the cover is on this line is a hundred and thirty, and if you play to the right of that, it's a hunt that covers a hundred and twenty. And if you played to the

left of it's one forty. Now it's like, oh, man, if I missed. If I played the one thirty and I pull it just a little bit, now I'm in trouble. So it's it's those sort of setups where you've got the angles, which ultimately, like I said, Pete was was a magician with those things. I know, it's interesting. I'll

never forget. You know, back when it was younger, um, we did work at Drout, which was part of the regular tournament ROTA, and so the first year that the tournament was there after the renovation, and you know, players will now nowadays with social media, you know, they set the stage in the first practice round. If somebody doesn't like something, it gets tweeted, etcetera. And so there was

some chirping. I don't even think maybe Twitter was around, but there was some chirping some players in interviews and I was walking following I grew up and your dad was there and he was walking and he pulled me aside and he used colorful language which I won't use, but he said, he said, don't let these guys get you down. He said, this is a hard golf course. There's nothing wrong with it. And there's nothing wrong with these guys playing a hard golf course. You did a

great job here. So getting back to that, you know, and and those golf courses identify the best players. And we had great, great players win at Drout was three years after the rest, you know, the renovation of the golf course. So I agree the great players they like it hard. They want to play difficult, and you know, you hear the stories about Jack walking into the into the locker room and guys grumbling. He's like, okay, I know, I got that guy beat. And so it's there's the

great players in this day and age grories. They walk in Tiger obviously in his day they know, okay, you know this is like you're saying with Trevor Immelman, you know, when it's a shootout, anybody in the room can win. When is this when it's a major, then you know

there's really only twenty guys. Maybe some guy gets really lucky and gets hot that week, and I think that, so we have to remember that when we do work and we've had a little bit more over because you know, it's it's hard to say wing foots bag because Gil hands did anything. It's telling us golf course, you know. So it's ultimately and we love to go into the weeks of major championship saying, hey, focus on Thomas, focused

on telling us, etcetera. But when it's our own work, you know, you hear this chirping and I'll be perfectly honest. You want to get on your soapbox and say, no, that's not what we're trying to do. But then you come across the sounding defensive and shrill, and so it's just like, okay, And as you were saying, the golfing public takes because he's great at golf, he must know

what he's talking about when it comes to architecture. He must know that this is a bad golf hole because he said it's a bad golfhole, versus it's a bad golful because he may double when he may right. So so we I've learned to be more patient with those sorts of things. Let's take a quick break and we are back. Whether it's your work or whether it's the of course, you come in and and and helped change um.

When there is a major championship there. When you watch players um, not struggle, but when you watch players hit shots um and don't make pars um that get into trouble as an architect or you like, Okay, that's what we wanted to do. That's we wanted to try and challenge and it makes you feel good. You take you know, some weird perverse thing kind of going hot we got. I have always wondered that because you know the golf course.

When you play golf course, it's it's hard to remember the guys that designed them, they're they're doing it to to challenge you. The golf course is supposed to be challenged. I think I read somewhere I want to say this is correct. Al Stair Mackenzie was he did you do camouflage in the army and you did something? So it's designed by design. The the architect is trying gordless of

your handicap. They're trying to test you. So when you watch your golf course, do you get after the US Open it at the country club, do you and just get together, you know, by yourselves and say, hey, we did a good job on this whole, because that's the challenge we wanted. We liked that they but they struggled with this. We like the fact that he hit it to twenty feet may par and somebody else in the group down the stretch may double because twenty feet was

a good shot, not to five feet. Yeah, we we definitely we watch. We're nervous, um and the for two reasons. There's so the the learning curve, like you mentioned, is important us because we're fortunate now we're going to be doing this for a while. We've got a crazy lineup of course, is that we're involved with that are gonna host major championships over the next decade um, and so we want to learn and get better that our craft, and so we focus on things from that perspective and

see see what works and what doesn't. The bigger perspective of how we get nervous is really more the perception of the golf course, and that's mostly through the member's eyes, because rightly or wrongly, um, you know, if Justin Thomas shoots fifteen under instead of I know it was six or seven or whatever he won with somebody's can say, oh, Southern Hills too easy, and you know that golf course wasn't good enough to host a major championship, but they

shoot at Fitzpatrick shoots five or six under. You know, hey, that was a tough test of golf. That was great, and the members walk away, you know, kind of excited and pumped that their golf course stood up to the best players in the world. And you get a crazy situation like Wingfoot, which was just an odd open because of COVID and the whole thing. You know, Bryson shoots six nme. He's the only guy under part in the

entire field. And somebody said to me, you know, well, what what was it like giving up the you know, the record low score for the US Open at Wingfoot? Like that was your takeaway from the whole because the one guy I you I heard that there as well.

I mean, the way Bryson was playing that week, and you know, my my family has so much history there, and you felt like there were a number of members at that Wingfoot that were upset that Riston came in and was doing the things he's doing as opposed to going listen, he's doing something amazing on a really really hard golf course. Like you said, it's not like, you know, six under one and lost in a playoff, and then there were two guys at five and four, at four

and three, I mean with one guy. Yeah, And I think that so so everybody gets fixated on the score as being the sort of the arbiter of equality. And and as we've been discussing, that's really got everything to do is set up and weather that week, and that's ultimately what what dictates the house score, goes our stand From our standpoint, the most important thing is that we

get a great champion. You really just want, hopefully the work that we've done in the golf course to identify a great champion, and so that when people look at who won the major championship on that year in that place, they go, yeah, we're really proud to have Justin Thomas, We're really proud to have Matt Fitzpatrick. We're really proud that there are great players that won these events versus I no no offense to to the lesser known players,

but you really would rather not have that happen. So I think if there's any rooting interest you might start to think, okay, coming down the stretchy, you know, all right, we'd rather have that guy being the major champion versus that guy. And so I think that's the only being completely honest, that's really the only rooting interests. We're not sitting there going. Boy would love to see them both double the last sole because I think, honestly, we Jim and I, in our own designs, we'd like to see

positive outcomes win championships. I think it's much more memorable for a guy makes the last two in a major championship. Then yeah, yeah, one guy made a boat. You know, the guy made a double too. Was that That's not our mindset when it comes to golf and set up. You mentioned set up of a golf course that once you get to, once the design happens, you guys come in, you do to the renovation, the redesign, the tournament goes on.

And you mentioned set up. Um, there are so many times that I think sometimes the setup can make the golf course almost unplayable. You know, We're at Marion and it was someday and one of the members was working the driving range and he said, you know, our course is held up pretty good. They haven't beaten it up. And I'm thinking in my head, you you've never played this golf course. You first of all, you can't play

the configuration of what it is. But on someday at the US Open, nobody is ever going to play a golf course from a set up standpoint that is that baked out, that the greens are that firm, that the rough has gotten that much up. You the average golfer couldn't finish that golf course. And I think sometimes is it not frustrating? But as you said, golf is an

outdoor sport. They look like they're gonna get whether they're they're trying to stay away from that is sometimes is there sometimes not so much frustration, but you look at and go off. I wish we could have kept the golf course set up this way as opposed to it being set up that way. It's usually on the the easier side, right, It's usually And we had nothing to

do with this. And you know, back earlier I had a small career in television when we do the U s O going Fox at the coverage and Wednesday at Oakmont in that was the best conditioned golf course. I think I've ever seen him on life. It was incredible. It was so good. And then you get two and a half three inches of rain Wednesday night into Thursday morning, and it totally changed everything. And it was like, you know, I can't even imagine the heartache from the superintendent and

the staff and everything. They had it so good playing bouncy, it was playing firm. You had guys from the fairway and the rough thinking, okay, maybe I can chip us out and get this just. I mean DJ on the first hole, I remember his first hole of the tournament. He hit it into the left rough f okmon and I'd already seen a bunch of guys try and go for that green, catch the flyer out of the rock, bounce it over, go down that little hump, and I'll

never forget. DJ laid it out front, edge, chipped it up, put it up, made but made Burke made park. And afterwards A J said, you don't even know who my brother was in the on the first hole. Normally we're going white at that pin, we're making double or triple. And he had learned that. But the way that course was set up, like you said on Thursday, can be so different than the way it is by the time

it gets the Sunday. Yeah, and and we so, I guess the best way to is you want to set up we we do, other people may the priorities maybe reversed as we want to set up to flatter the architecture. Is to show off every aspect of the architecture that's available to the set up guys, different whole locations. You know, you don't wanted to be so firm and so biked out that we can't use that whole location because it's

just over the over the edge. You don't want it to be so soft that they're starting to say, oh man, we've got to go two and a half paces from the edge instead of three, you know, and you're starting

to go the opposite direction. You really just the thing that most people don't realize, and I've been fortunate enough to be involved in all of these conversations and just or fly on the wall, is how much thought and preparation goes into Like you know, there's there's set up visits start eighteen months before a championship and then they're coming in they're constantly refining and tweaking, and so for people to think that oh, they just made that random

decision to put a whole location there today and it didn't work out. No, they've been thinking about that whole location for over a year. And so if the setup flatters the architecture, and the architectural flatters the setup and allows them to use everything, that's the that's the sweet spot. That's exactly where you wanted to be. I think we look at it is we don't wanted to go so far to the easy side and the conditions because of

the mother nature. Um, that's worse than going although you don't want it to get gimmicky, you know where it goes so far on the hard side that you know, the best players in the world, you're you know, I don't want to beat it up, but you know there's like seven at Shinnekock back in two thousand four. I think of those guys. I mean, the best players in the world can't hit a green with a mid iron, and it's like that's there's something wrong there. That's not

right either. So you just hope and I know that John Bodenhammer, Kerry Higg and their teams they don't want to be part of the story. They want to get through the week and not have anybody have any blow ups or any any issues. So it's the combination of the preparation hopefully the certainly the talents of the superintendent and if but the wild card is always mother nature.

That's what it comes down to. As an architect um we we've talked there does seem to be a trend towards taking golf courses back to the way they used to look um that style and the agronomy. I think it's changed there. There's been this, in my opinion, this augustification of golf courses where there can't be any brown.

Everything's got to be green. And as a result, still you have to put so much water on the golf course to have it have this aesthetic look, so it looks like Augusta and no disrespect to what they do at Augusta Nashville, but a lot of times when you're out at that golf course, it looks somewhat not the only term I could come up with, Parts of it look like it's fake that it's it's so overdone right,

it's so over manicure. There's these great photos that I come across every now and again with my grandfather when he won there in hit at the water on thirteen, and the water on thirteen looks like a ravine you'd find in West you know, in Texas. There's grass and there's all this stuff. None of it looks ultra ultra pristine. And I think that it's been cool. I mean, you went um two years ago and they went back to this here Congoe on the PGA tour where they went

and played what a cool golf course? Wasn't necessarily perfect green everywhere. It had a little brown to it. It had what you talked about to where you walked from the green to the t but it it had some some natural parts to it. And as a designer, how do you judge up? Because again, if the client wants it to look like Augusta and looked super super green and super super perfect, that's really a different design than someone saying, hey, just go find the golf holes. Yeah.

I think that that comes down to clients selection, right. I mean we're and you know, I realized how fortunate we are and that we have the ability to say no. And so if somebody comes and says, hey we want to I guess so we want to perfect consider we've got to really think long and heart of it. That's something that that we want to do because I agree with you, I'm much we're much more in the line

of natural presentation. Firm asked. I got to spend a year in Great Britain and part of a scholarship from Cornell and that's what that's really what all of my principles and focus came from that and the natural presentation of golf course as well as the natural design of golf courses. Augusta National does what they do, They do it better than anybody else. It's the most anticipated tournament

of the year. We all look to it. But I think if you gave truth serum to every superintendent the country, they hate it because they look at that and the members come in the next day like, oh, did you see it was great? Degrees? Are fourteen? To look at that was beautiful? And look at that little brown spot of the right. Can you get rid of that? Because

they don't have that. Yeah, And so that's that. It's very frustrating for superintendents because nobody has the well very few of course, to do that and make sure that they can keep it and maintain it. But it is it is and You're right, that's the evolution of Augusta. August has evolved into that. It is so iconic, as they said, it's so anticipated. There's no way they could ever change that. I mean, they just can't go back to the weedy banks and the grasses and the Mackenzie

bunkers with all the rough un edges, etcetera, etcetera. That's sale and maybe for the better because you know, we all love it. It's not like people turn off the tournament. And that golf course has maintained too well. I don't want to look at that, those white stands, bunkers, it's amazing. Lastly, gil Um in two. From a design standpoint, Um, what role do you think that the designers designing golf courses today have to play in trying to grow the game? Um?

We've built a nine hole my dad and Kelly Gibson here we built a nine hole part three course. UM where I think the longest holes probably a hundred and twenty yards. It's nine holes. It's it's changed the club, gil Um. Guys play the main course and then they get done. They have launched and they load up on you know, booze and and get the music. Going and go play, you know, ninety yards eighty yard shots um. From an instruction standpoint, guilt getting people on golf courses.

They're not good enough to go play. Even if you take them to the ladies tease, they're not good enough to play the golf courses. Do you think I know it's not call its defective, but do you think we're going to see more maybe nine whole, three whole, twelve whole golf courses that aren't necessarily super super hard that

our user friendly to help try and grow the game. Yeah, we we built a golf course in in a little nine holer and pine Hursts the cradle, it's it has you know, and Bob Demman, Tom Pastially, you know, they took a chance to make fun the front door for the clubhouse at Pinehurst, and you know with the putting

giant putting green and then the cradle. And I get more pleasure out of watching people just tooling around out there with their grandkids or parents sitting in the aderundics watching their kids play, or ate sums of you know, knuckle heads playing barefoot and had drinking beers and just the somehow that just clicked in the magic of it, and that so excitement of getting people the introductory level.

So the game is based on fund versus frustration. You've got plenty of time to get frustrated with this game, have fun, get to it in a fun manner, and I think that that's incredibly important. We've got, um, you know, people I do Instagram occasionally and you get you know, I've stopped because like, I don't really need that in my life. But you know, whenever we put up pictures of these great private clubs that we've done, et cetera, they're like, oh great, you know I'm never going to

get to play there. Thanks for putting that up. And it's like that's all we do. But we probably are most anticipated golf course is just going to open sometime next year is the park in West Palm Beach, because we fly over that when we land into two p B I. If you're coming in off the ocean, it's over there on the on the left. If you're taking off, it's over there on the right. And that looks very much like when you fly over. It looks like when you fly over Seminole just looks like a bunch of sand,

and it really does have that same kind of look. Yeah, so it's uber wide, very playable, interesting, But then again it's just that there's enough there that you know, somebody's beginning in the game could just bunted, bunted, bunted, get up on the green. You know, you've got to think a little bit. But then somebody like you would get out there and be like, Okay, I'm gonna attack this pin. That pin. You can really set that whole set up. And then with the sandy areas and they're all kind

of you're not gonna lose the golf ball. There's no water, there's no water on the golf course. It's super friendly, you know, just go out and play golf and not

get frustrated with it. And so we're almost when we're as excited about the opening of that because it can show, hopefully from in our opinion, that great architecture, honestly speaking, great maintenance, playability, wide corridors, et cetera, can actually happen in the transferred to municipal golf course where anybody and everybody can go out there for a reasonable price and play that. So I think we'd love to be in

a position to help to grow the game. We've done that wherever we possibly can do in pro bono stuff with first Tease and and municipal golf courses. Um whole fully, not only are we doing something that will make the game we're playable and enjoyable, but that's somewhere in some person who's just coming to the game. They'll they'll start to think, I wonder why I like that whole. I wonder why I don't like that whole. I wonder why this is there and that? And then I think, you know,

and I'm sure you you know. It's when you start to get to a level where you appreciate architecture and you start to appreciate thought, that opens up such another element of the game versus just trying to get the ball airborne and and survive. When you get to a place where you can actually start to think about, okay, there are questions that are being asked out here, then I think the entirety of the game, and then the the entire beauty of the game really becomes apparent to

two players. Well, I really appreciate you talking to me, Um, I could talk to you forever. I didn't even get to my favorite golf courses, lay bored in France, and I know you guys have done the second course there. Ye, I love that place. That's to me, that is a magical, magical place. Yet to see the new readsign at l A Tree Club where the US Open is going to be this year. But I'm super excited. And if it's anything like um, the rest of the work that you

guys do, it's it's going to be amazing. Uh. If there's somebody better that in Gulf and our design, then what you guys are doing. I don't know who it is, because you guys are doing, you know, some amazing, amazing work. So how to talk to you guys, And uh, thanks for talking to us, and we'll look forward to seeing

you at another major. I mean you're like, you're like Tiger Woods at this point, he's walking around and all the other golf course architectures architects are looking at you, going and another major and you're just going yet another major another. It's funny because people say are you gonna go? And I'm going, yeah, usually go sort of Tuesday through Saturday maybe and then leave and they're like, you don't

stay for the end. I was like, if they're talking about the golf course on the weekend and something probably went wrong. So we cover all our bases. When once those guys show up, that's what the focus should be, you know, it's it's on them there. And so we talked about the golf course going into the tournament, but after that we we let them play it and see how it goes. But thanks, I really enjoyed. It was a great time to talk to you. And uh, we'll

hope to see you here. So that was Gil Hants UM really really cool interview and hopefully, UM something that I want to try and get more on the pods golf course architects because they're the ones that are designing the golf courses that all of us are trying to play. And I think anytime you can kind of listen to what they're talking about and how they're doing things. UM, I actually think it can help you to be honest with you play better golf. So UM, I want to

thank Gil for doing that. UM. I wanted to mention on a sad note, the passing of Barry Lane. For those of you that don't know, Barry was a stalwart on the European tour. UM he died New Year's Eve was sixty two years old. And uh he was a friend when I worked on the European Tour in the early part of the two thousand's. Um, you know, I worked with Barry for a number of years. Um. He

was a five time winner in the European Tour. Uh he was a big part of their Ryder Cup UM teams in the late eighties in the early nineties and was just one of really one of the coolest people I've met. And um, he will be missed. Um, I think the outpouring of condolences and um the emotions that a lot of um, kind of the old school guys on the European Tour, from Ian Woosnam to Thomas Born

and stuff. You know, Barry he played the tour, the European Tour for over two decades, never lost his card and uh was was was playing on the European Tour Champions their Champions Tour. But um, you know, my condolences go out to his wife Camilla and um you know a lolways look back fondly on the times that I got to spend with with Barry. He was he was just an unbelievable ball striker. Um, he was kind of

one of the first of the old school guys. UM. He played from a very very shut position like we see a lot of the modern players. UM. He hit the golf ball miles. He had a lot of speed. He wasn't a very big guy, but UM, I think anybody that got to watch him hit golf balls, UM was just beyond impressed. And he was just he was a gentleman. And uh, you know he will definitely be UM missed and UM yeah really really sad to hear about his passing. UM, but want to thank everybody for

all the listens for last year. UM. You know it's a new year. We're gonna try and continue to get good guests. UM. Hit me up on social and let me know the kind of guests, UM that you want. You want, you know, more guests from the PGA Tour. Do you want more guests from live? Do you want more guests from outside the golf space? UM, let me know and uh I will do my best to get them on but rate reviews. Subscribe to wherever you get your podcast Son of a which comes to you every Wednesday.

We will see you next week.