It's the Son of a Butch podcast on your host Claude Harmon. This week we've got three caddies on and they've got a new venture that they're trying to get out listen. I love talking to caddies about the game. I think they probably have the best view of what's happening on the golf course other than players. And on the pod, I've tried to get as many caddies as I can because I think they're they're they're insight and
the way they see the game is invaluable. We've got three of the best this week, Jonathan Smart, Chris Rice and Adam Morrow. Jonathan Smarty, you caddy currently for Cameron Chung, Ghali ricey U caddy four, Harold Barner the third which I mean we could do an entire podcast and looks like caddy in for that clown. And then Adam you caddy for Thomas Peters. Guys, all of you are based in the UK. You all came to caddying in very
different ways. And Smarty, when we were talking last week in Dallas about this new idea, this caddy clubhouse that you guys have started to become a caddie, I get people asking me all the time how do I become a caddy on tour? And I always say the same thing, And we talked about this. You almost have to get lucky to get asked to be on on tour to caddy, how did you Smarty get started? And when did you start? Yeah?
Exactly exactly that, really I was. I was looking for that luckie break. And you know, I played kind of professionally, you know, did the mini tour thing turn pro for a few years, got stuck, was falling out of lover the game, and kind of I was lucky in a sense I was good friends with Danny Willett and other guys that I'd grown up with through Amit a golf
who made it onto tour. And I always say I got lucky in the sense that I was quite realistic and thinking, do you know what, I'm probably not good enough to make it. But I was like, I want to stay in this game, so caddy in was my option. So I was like, right, I'm going to Caddy, thinking, well, I've played to a good standard. This shouldn't be hard, like, you know, I should be able to find this pretty easy. And also speaking to Ann and went to a couple
of events with him and stuff like that. Just no breakthroughs, and I wasn't meeting people to kind of you know, everyone had caddies or whatever. It seemed like, kept researching it online out of getting to caddying. Nothing came up. Anyway, Lucky and introduced me to writing back in Manchester years and years ago, and anyway, we stayed in touch. One day, I got a call on a Monday, I think it was and Rice. He said, you know, I know you've been looking at caddy and stuff. I think I've got
your job. I was like perfect. I was like, you know, let me know what it is and you know what I need to do. He's like, well, you'd need to leave tomorrow. It's going to Italy and it's caddying for Brandon Grace on Challenge Tour. I was like perfect, So yeah, that's and then that was that was me really. I flew out the next morning. Supposed to be like a week or two trial and as we all are, we're always on trial, I guess, and yeah.
I said, we're still we're still on trial. I have my uncle Billy on the pod, and my uncle Billy caddied for thirty years on the PJ Tour for Jay Hass. Bill Hass is named after my uncle Billy. My uncle Billy has a son named after Jay Hass. I asked Billy on the pod, what's it take to be a great caddy? He said, find a great player, great player. That stuck with me he said the same thing, he said, good caddy, bad player, bad player, good player, bad caddy.
Still good player, good player, good caddy, great team. Right. See, you've caddied for Americans. You've caddied you know. I mean you were on the back for Tierrollhatton's first win, which again, we could do an entire podcast what it's like to caddy for that lunatic right See? How did you get started? Though? Yeah?
I mean I was similar to Smatty. I was like giving it a go. Thought I was good at golf, sort of got down the plus two fucking I mean it was back in two thousand and six. I never really grew up playing golf, to be honest. I played a lot of football when I was young, Guys, I didn't. I took up the game late, so I was sort of newcomer to the game. I got down to plus two plus three pretty quick. In the space of a couple of years. So I thought I'd just give it
a go. I was like working in a pro shop at the time and I was doing taking taking crap off all the blogo members like so, but yeah, I just thought I'm going to give it a go full time for a year and see how we get on. So I was playing sort of British amateur, English amateur, and I think when you when you're playing them events, you really see the standard of golf that these guys can play. It's really eye opening.
And I'll be honest.
And then I missed. I mean I played or I didn't play great. I sort of missed a couple of events at the end of the year. And I was good friends with Dave Horsey at the time, who again was off plus five. He'd won a few big events, and yeah, then I missed the court and he made it and he was like, hey, if you're sticking around, your fancy caddying for me. So it was never in my mind that I ever wanted to caddy, never even thought of it as a job.
So I saw carried a couple of.
Weekends and yeah, he's done all right, got to I think he got to the Semis of the English Amateur and then like after them a couple of events, he's like, hey, I've just been selected to play in the Walker Cup. Uh you know, obviously great Britain and ALAM do the USA at Royal County Down Now. I mean it was probably one of the strongest American teams of all time. It was Dustin Johnson and Web Simpson. What's his name, Billy Trip, Keeney, Kyle Stanley. So yeah, we played and
he got three three out of four points. It was it was a great week and I was like, oh, I could actually, I could actually take up this caddy and Mark it's pretty easy. I mean it's not, obviously it's not. But then he was going to tour school. He was going to European Tour School. A week after he obviously went to Saint and Old Links like the day after he'd finished Walker Cup. He managed to win fair stage, got through the second age. He missed at
second stage. He was signed with Chubby Chandler at the time, who obviously, back back in them days he had all the top players West with Clark Rory. So he got a couple of invites onto Challenge Tour. He's like, Hey, like you fancy your fancy come and come and doing
a couple of events. So I was like, yeah, great, got a couple of invites, got all status for the next year, and then he's like you want to come Caddy, So I'm like, yeah, perfect, better than selling Mars bars making one hundred and fifty quid a week at the time. So yeah, So went and Caddy the full year on Challenge Store and he won twice, won the Order of Maria, got us talk out on the European Tour and that was it been carrying since two thousand and seven.
Adam, did I read that you started? Did you start carrying at queen Wood's that's right, Claud Yeah, that was where they throw Overgan so for Yeah. So for people that don't know, queen Wood was kind of like the first ultra exclusive americanized private club outside of London, right, I mean, obviously there's great clubs went Worth what he sunning down, they're kind of more in the in the UK, mold lots of rules, lots of old kind of UK type golf. Queen Wood was started what was the guy's named,
the American guy, Fred Green? Fred Green. Yeah, so there's a lot of. I mean at my club, the Floridian, We've got fifteen guys that are remembers at Queen So the Queen we was kind of like the first kind of ego americanized club. So you started chattying there, did you play, Adam?
Growing up to my story as you ask, so, I always had desires to play, But I was one of these people at a very young age. Maybe I was a bit mature for my years. I realized I wasn't going to make it as a golfer. The pro shop didn't appeal to me, teaching didn't really appeal to me. So I didn't really know what I was doing in my life. And it was June two thousand and one,
this creation of Queen was being built. I was a Keen golfer, single figure handicap or whatever, and me being a teenager, I thought, oh, would be a good idea to kind of trespass on Queenwood while it's being built with my putter and experience putting on some real American style greens. So I went over there with me and my buddy went over there. We must have got away with putting for about twenty minutes before a golf cart came out and we got basically thrown off for trespassing.
But as we got thrown off for trespassing, the guy was like, look, you know our opening weekend is in October. This is back in oh one. So he said, our opening weekend is in October. We're desperate for caddies. We've got all these members, we've got no caddies. Do you want to come and caddy in the opening weekend? And for me caddy and I've cadded maybe for my coach and my golf club. I might have done around at sing now when I was a kid, possibly.
But I'd never really cadded to any I didn't even know what caddy in really was, and sure enough I turned up an opening weekend. I cadded for a nice couple. Probably did an awful job because I had no idea what I was doing, and I learn on the job.
Lord so Queen would actually close and I opened it for the weekend in October and then actually closed down for six months, didn't open up.
The following spring.
So I then spent four years cadine a queen would learn learning how the club caddy.
What would you say, guys, is the difference between club caddying and the job that you have a smarty. You've been on the you're on the back when Danny Willett won the Masters, so you know what that situation's like. Adam. You know Thomas Peters, I mean, I like a lot of people are surprised he doesn't win more. You've caddied for him in the Olympics, You've caddied in Ryder Cups race, you've cauted for Harold. You guys have won big tournaments.
What's the difference between being a caddy at a club and then being a caddy on tour Because we always say as instructors, it shouldn't be any different, right, the golf that you play on the weekend with your mates. I mean the courses maybe set up a little bit differently.
But a time, you know, a young kid gets into a big tournament on tour or something, I always say on the same thing, it's just golf, right, and the golf that you're going to play at home is the same golf that you're going to play in a professional tournament. The difference is there there's more money, there's going to be more people. The golf course might be set up differently, but at the end of the day, guys, the game is no different. So chattying at a club, caddying for
your mates and stuff. What's the difference that you guys think between that and caddying on tour.
I'd say Adams probably.
Well, I mean, I mean, essentially, yeah, the job, the job is the same, but the thing with the club caddying is, I mean you'll carry in every day. In fact, I'm not even every day. You could be doing every round. It's a different person, a different capability, a different standard. So you have to get to know their game within minutes. You know, it could be anybody. It could be a plus five handicap, it could be someone who's playing golf
for the first time. So the difference between a club caddy and talk caddie is probably just that ability to adapt, is to adapt to that new scenario that you surrounded. And it's definitely a lot more heavily service based, you know, it's more of a concierge. That's how the skill set would differ.
Definitely, yeah, I mean, and I think that there is a job right from being a caddy at a club. So the idea behind this new concept guy's caddy Clubhouse. Is it as simple as that. How does somebody who is caddying at a club that enjoys doing that, that is using that as their job l club in Florida, at the Floridian we're open from mid October until mid May. So we've got a group of caddies that caddy at the club for six to eight months and then they're
going somewhere else. Right. But the jump from saying Okay, I love caddying, I really want to continue to do this. I would like to take this to the next level. As we said in the opening, guys, there's no way to do that. And it's a little bit like being a golf instructor, right. People always ask me all the time, how do you work with tour players? You have to be in the right place at the right time and
get asked, right. And I think what you guys are trying to do with Caddy Clubhouse is say, Okay, can we maybe formalize this in a way to where if you want to continue to be a caddy you don't have to just hopefully have a mate that's going to try and play the challenge door or play the web or the corn ferry or whatever. It is, and because that's what happens. Right, you meet somebody, you go out. If you don't have any success, they're not going to keep you as a caddie. Right, the job is over
unless you, guys go out and play well. So so many people are like yourself, right, go out, you get a break, guy says, hey, want to take you with me. I'm going to go try and play qualify for something. They qualify, they have success, and they say, okay, do you want to keep doing it? Because that's the only way, or to go to the Austin Johnson route, which is to have a brother who is one of the best players in the world and he wants you to come
and carry the bag for him. So was the idea guys to say, listen, let's find a way to give people that want to caddy at an elite level a forum, a place to go in, a place to learn their craft. Yeah.
I think it's exactly what you said Claude at the beginning. You know how many messages do you get saying how do I get into caddying? And that's what that's what we get all the time. And you ask all the other caddies, they're all getting messages I want to get into Caddy and what do I do? And at what point are we just going to sit here and say the same thing. Well, you need a bit of a break, but try and get a better experience and do this and do that, and you know what, like tool life like,
to get in the inner circle is really hard. Once you're in, you can you're okay, But like getting in.
Yeah, no, I mean I say this all the time. Tour players they are I say this. My wife always laughs at me when I say that. They're like dogs, right, they communicate nonverbally when they don't know you, They kind of snip around, they bark at things they haven't seen before. But you're right, you get out on tour, you have some success. Those relationships, as we all know, are never permanent. You know, there are no lifetime contracts in the Caddian
world or the coaches world. But because you're on tour, people see you, they're in the same group with you. So you guys will get jobs based off of players going hey, I've been out with you before, kind of like the way you do things. I'm going to make a switch. I heard you're in between jobs. But other than being in that situation. Historically, there is no professional
an instruction. Go to the PGA of America and learn to be you know, work at a shop, learn to be an instructor, learn to club repair and all of that. But there's no formal organization that teaches people how to caddy. In the US, they have the PGM program, which is Professional Golf Management. There's specific colleges that you can go to and basically you're getting a degree in becoming a
golf pro. And every year at the PJ Merchandise Show you see these young kids walking around in the PGM uniform, you know, khakis they bought out a Walmart that are four sizes too big. But there has never been a place for caddies. So how are you guys going to go about teaching people how to caddy?
Yes, I mean the Star is just going to be online courses. So there's two online courses because, like you say, as hard as it is to get on tool, you know, to get in your club exact for example, like the Fluidi, and you still got to kind of maybe know someone just to go and clip cudding. So there's going to
be that course as well. So this we want to you know as we've all got different always how we got into it, and when Adam came on board, we realized that there's two roles here in caddy and there's tour caddying and there's club caddy in so we provided two like really in depth courses. The idea behind the tour one is you skip all the mistakes we made
early on because you know that reputation. You know if you mess up on those first couple of weeks, you might get the sack and you might never get another chance. So hopefully we get those foundations in place for you and we go through and all the material is all the stuff we've learned over the years, and we've learned from other caddiers and other people in and around golf,
so we've provided all that. But I think the big thing as well after that is once you've completed the course, you'll be part of a community, so an online community. You'll create your own profile, and on that community you'll have access to agents, players and golf clubs that are posting jobs. So when those jobs become available, you can kind of put your CV in or profile if you like, and apply for that job. And then from you know, agents players and so on can start choosing maybe who
they want to speak to and so on. So just giving you that bit of access instead of having to know someone if you like.
Yeah, because the caddy mantra historically is show up, keep up, stop. That's basically the training. Historically. It's a joke, right, it's a joke within the caddy in fraternity, but that is as much as you get historically. Just show up on time, don't talk too much, and keep up. I don't think I don't think that. I don't think that was in my job description when I took the job for Harold Club. I'll be honest. I've tried to go in with that moth o, but that did last too long. So, guys,
what's the hardest part? I asked my ask my uncle about this. I always ask caddies about this. What do you three feel like it's the hardest part about caddying that people that look at what you guys do on TV that they would be surprised at. That's a good question. Yeah, you know, you go ahead.
I just think it's being able to adapt in certain situations. And I, like you say, like no one went to say things at the right time. And no one when to when to sort of when you say shut be quiet basically because obviously that again, like Adam said, it's we know the guys that we carry. For when you club caddy and you knowing them for like five ten minutes, you're having to sort of think of stuff on the spot.
But I think when, like for the guys that we work with full time, it's like we get to know them, like we know when when they want advice, when they don't want advice, when to say something in certain situations. And again when when it comes to dancer situations where you're in contention for a tournament, sort of being able to understand the games, when to rain.
Them in, when them when to allow them to go for things.
So like as you said before, we can be as good at caddy as you want, but your player needs to You've got to ride a good horse.
Adam, your digees. I mean so in the course, right, I mean to me the things that for someone that's never caddied before, you need to be organized, right, I think organizational skills are something that in my opinion, you know, I've been been on tour basically my entire life, you know, through watching my grandfather, my dad, all my uncles. I was on tour when my dad was playing the tour. I think the good ones are organized, they are they're
fearless at times. Yeah, I think you have to be fearless to have the job that you guys have because the player picks up on it, right, Just like in my world coaching, if a player is hitting it bad and I panic, then the player panics. But yardages, the numbers and all of the things that go into caddying on tour, that's somewhat, Adam, kind of a baptism by fire, because a tour yardage book, for everybody that's never seen one,
looks like an algebra text. Right. There are a lot of numbers, there are a lot of nuancewers to the yardage book. So, Adam, when for everyone listening the yardage book is doing, what and what information do you feel as a caddy is the important information that you're trying to fall out of a yardage book. Yeah? So I love what you're saying there.
So the keyword that you kind of not missed, but the keyword that the narrative of what we try and push early on in the course is the word preparation. Now, preparation is kind of is where we're going. Really here is when we're even with it in terms of our yardage book. So we're getting a yardage book, we're getting a look at the course earlier in the week, we're identifying the numbers we need, specific numbers, and that's all
part of the preparation. And really, once you have that, you know, once you're in that position, you should never be in a situation during the tournament play where you don't have that answer. And I think that that is the beauty of it. Now our course will obviously we'll go ahead and it'll teach you each aspect of that, and I could go into that in more depth, but ultimately the thing with the narrative early on in both courses is preparation.
Yeah, And I think that one of the things that I see all three of you doing when you're going out and walking the course without the players, there are always going to be holes on the golf course that have funky layups, funky runout the angle of kind of where the t box to the So there are a lot of times where you guys will be trying to get different numbers that aren't in the book. Right, the book will give you yardages to front, middle, and back
from all the sprinkler heads. They'll tell you where the bunkers are, off the tees. They'll tell you what the carries are. But what are some other numbers? For people that have never counted before, there are going to be other numbers that you guys are trying to get. What are some of those numbers that you want to have so that when the player asks you a question, you've got the answer? Yeah, do you want to take that? John? No, you do it?
Well, Yeah, I was just going to say for me personally, I mean I work for I work for quite a fiery golfer. I think you wouldn't mind me saying that, you know, So Part five long. Part four's, for example, that position, I'm going to need a couple of numbers, so I'd have a number I'd be looking for my what I'd abbreviate just in case number.
So that's a number where it's.
Like, you know, we're hacking out of the raff, or we're hacking it into a position where you know we're not bringing.
You can tell everybody in the ottage box there is the abbreviated letters which are come on. Ye, So you see a lot of j I sees in my books. And then of course.
Ideally you'll have you'll have more of an aggressive sort of layup, which is, you know, if you're in the semi raff, but if you've you know, if you're carrying someone who's a particularly errant t shot and they're thinking they're going to hit three wood through a little triangle up onto the green, and you're like, there's a wedge, buddy, just in case number. That's how I label it in my books, and I think everybody does a similar thing,
and maybe they don't call it just in case. I don't know where I picked that from Riseley.
What do you call yours? I don't know if they still have it. But back in the day, you know, fifteen twenty years ago, they had the initials for just in case. You find those initials are I mean, I'm still seen yardage books where those are in the box.
Yeah, I think they were. Were they not the strack of book? Were they not the original books with the orange covers? I think it was some of that that you had, like pictures of sharks and the legs and stuff like that.
I think, yeah, that was the ones. I think that's where I got it from. Yeah, how do you guys manage? I mean the worst place you can be on the golf course as a caddy for an elite player is they ask you a question you don't know the answer to, right, And how much of it? Guys, do you feel like caddying is information and opinion? And how do you how do you find that balance between the player scheme for
the information and giving your opinion. I mean, do you guys work for guys that you guys have court blanche to give your opinion all the time, or do you guys have players where they just say, listen, give me the information. I'll make the decision myself. If I need your input, I'll ask for it.
I think all three of us were for completely different guys, which is a great Which is a great question, Claude. I think we've talked about this me and Smarty before. Like I work for Harold. Harold just wants me to give him a club, Just give him a number to let him go. Like, I'll be honest, I got the best bit of advice ever from Billy Foster when I first started caddying. He's like, when you're standing there, don't be ever afraid to say what you're thinking. And that
stuck with me ever since. So, like, if I feel like he's hitting the wrong shot, I'm going to openly tell him and listen, we all make mistakes and if you're wrong, you're.
Wrong, you hold your hands up and you move on. But yeah, I think we all work for different guys.
I think Smarty and his player a little bit a little bit different to what me and Harold are.
Yeah, I think like like exactly what Rice he says. I mean, I've worked for a range of players and they all want different things. And I think, as we've kind of touched on before, just being adaptable and knowing your player, so you're going to kind of get a feel for when they need extra information, when they need things reaffirming, or when they just need to when you just need to guard the way you know, when it's
just keep it really simple. I remember when I used to work for Dan, Like when he used to get in contention, it was always less information. You didn't need to really do that much, just give him the real basics, kept it simple, whereas like early on in the week he'd be asking for every bit of information. So it's just I think you just got to kind of learn, you know, and you will over time obviously understand your player.
And I think you know on your question on when you don't know the answer or whatever it might be, is honesty, Like you know, sometimes you got to be feel this in big decisions and big moments and stuff. But you know, if there is something you're not sure about, like the majority of players, I've word or appreciate that honesty and just go listen. I don't know, but this is what I think we should do or whatever that scenario might be.
Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that I don't think people realizes when you're watching golf on TV. I found this when I started doing television. When you watch golf on TV and you're listening to the announcers and you're listening to the announcers talk, it seems like they've got forever to do it right. But as soon as you go on television, you've got about thirty or forty seconds to say something. Give what's happening for you guys.
It seems like there's a lot of time for you guys to get the numbers, But you've got to get down there. You've got to first of all, take a look at the lie then kind of figure out what the numbers are. I'm sure you can get to a
point where you can do that quite quickly. But Adam, as you said, I mean you work for someone in Thomas Peters to where if Thomas hits one offline with the driver or he can hit it a long way off line, and then you're out in kind of no man's land trying to get Like if you work for a player that's got speed and distance, you're going to have times in the round where they are going to hit an errant t shot that is a long way and it's a long way off line, and you don't
have a tremendous amount of time. You don't have five minutes to figure it out and go get You've got to do this stuff very very quickly. Do you guys feel the pressure sometimes to get the numbers fast so that you then have time to talk about the strategy.
Yeah, absolutely no. You know what, clauda something that I've never really thought about it. I've always been quite like call and collected with it. But since there's been a lot more emphasis and scrutiny on like slow play, and you know there's people getting fined or getting shot analis.
I've got to say.
The last few events, I'm like, you know, we've hit an errand shot and we might might not, you know, use I work for a long hit has always last a hit, so it's never really a problem.
He's quite quick.
But we found ourselves in positions and I'm like, I need to make a decision here, and yeah, I certainly.
Think it more and more with me having in mind a bit of the slow play thing.
You know, you never want to obviously pain in a position where you're going to cash a player a shot or a fine or a penalty or anything like that, you know what I mean. So it's become I think about it more recently, just purely based on that.
Is there a difference, guys, between caddying and or what is the difference between caddying in a regular tour event in caddying in a major? What's the difference cadding wise? I thought you were going to say live then.
Yeah, I thought you were going to say live. But you can use ladies in the US Open, you can use lads in the USPJ or that other way around. Well, I mean well, clearly would you guys.
But what's the difference caddying week in, week out and then caddying in a major.
I'd say condition of the course. I think you've got to do it, generally a little bit more homework. And majors, I think everyone's your players are always a bit more on edge, or maybe that's not the right way, but definitely trying harder. Whether they like it or not, they're all they're all trying to win a major more than anything else. And I think the condition of the course always takes a little bit more homework because the pins
are going to get more touck. Generally, the rough's a bit thicker, the fair, you know, the greens are a bit firmer. Now you've got to look at misses that you maybe don't have to look at what you might
get away with in a regular event. I think just the homework side of things, I think you've really you've got to be almost more prepared, and then being aware of your players probably going to be under a little bit more stress that week, so you've got to be ready for that and kind of adjust accordingly.
If you like the harder the golf course. Obviously in majors, guys, the test is by design. They want the test to be harder when the course set up is tightened, like it is in major Championship where they're tucking pins. Where the conditions are tougher. Is the information that you're going to give the player different when the conditions aren't as.
Tough, not necessarily like leg smartly touched on, you start you start looking at your misses, where the best place to miss it is, where your leaves are.
Going to be.
I think when the conditions are a little bit more gettable, like softer conditions, you're almost you're almost giving them less information because you can just aim at flags. When it becomes tougher, firm of greens, you're looking at your pitching numbers where you want to leave it, to leave you the uphill put because obviously you can still hit it fIF fifteen feet past it in some of these on some of these holes, and you can't keep it on
the green. So you're obviously the conditions. The firmness of the conditions obviously changes to when it's softer, so you obviously guys can play more aggressive. You play more defensive. In a lot of these majors, you're trying to make pause in a lot of them.
Yeah, exactly.
Everyone thinks are going to move a bit like backwards, but images they're only going to move. You all not leadable, So you've just got to be more on the ball with where everything really.
The psychologist aspect of what you all do, right, because in the course of a round of golf, the players going to want you to carry the back, so you're basically a modern day sherpa. Right, then you've got to be a psychologist. They expect you to know where the wind is at all times, so you've got to be somewhat of a wind expert meteorologist. You've got to be good with numbers. You've got to do a lot of
stuff in a very short period of time. Guys, how do you go about building course content that is going to kind of encumbass all of the things that I just talked about because all of that stuff is part of an eighteen whole round of competitive golf. Right, You're going to have to be somewhat of a psychologist because you don't know whether they're in a good mood or a bad mood. Their mood sort of going to change
on the golf course. You've got to be pretty good or pretty quick with numbers to try and get all of the numbers and prepare them in an organized way. You got to know where the wind is, You got to know the course is drying out. So how did you guys come up with the course curriculum for Caddy Clubhouse? What did you guys put in? What did you guys not put in? Did you guys put in some things that you said, hey, we think this is vital to be a good caddy.
Yeah, I think, well, if we can sit here and talk about caddy in and go all day long, but when someone actually to put something down on a piece of paper on how he can design, it's a little bit tougher. So luckily that that's why this three of us here, Like we've brought all the things together, but we've put a lot of the courses stuff that you're expected to know. And I remember my first event on challenge to her and Grace. I was working for Gracie and he was putting the pins in his book, just
this simple little thing. And even though I played to a high level, I've never done that before. So like just tiny little things that you are just expected to know so we've put that all together in a curriculum in order of where we think it should come, and we've tried to cover everything. As I said before, is all our mistakes, if you like. So we've just kind of worked through everything systematically. So we've got a stats
module from Duncan Carey. So obviously that's a big part of golf now, it's something that's expected of caddies to at least understand whether your player uses them or not. There's all different sorts of modules that we've put together. But then obviously when we get out to caddying, as you've touched on, when it's talking about decision making and
things like that, that's all you learning through experiences. So we've tried to give you all the factual stuff if you like, and the stuff to kind of skip six months or a year's worth of experience and learning and giving you all our information on maybe how you're going to skip through that process.
You said that part of the impetus behind this is to kind of jump start and have people that want to take the courses learn from your mistakes. But the obvious question, guys, for the three of you is what what were some important mistakes you made caddying that helped you get to that next level to where you guys are where you are today.
I got along, I got a long list of mistakes I can get away where because every guy that I've worked for has never carried the ottage book, so the emphasis has always been on me, me getting it right. I mean, it's just a little things like obviously getting the wind direction wrong which makes you guys fly agreen or leave short of agree.
And it's just it's because obviously that's got to be your fault, right because the player is not going to take any responsibility for that.
Well, it's it's either short, so long as the caddie's fault, it's left or right your fault, claude, So.
Exactly we get that out of the way, all that you finish the other way. That was brilliant. So my dad was commentating on Sky Sports British TV at the at the Players Championship TPC. So the seventeenth pole obviously island green, and I can't remember the player, but this
player is. It's when they put the pin on on the island green, they kind of put it up on that top back right show, So not the one not the Sunday front one, but the one where they put it kind of middle ish top and then everybody when they miss it, they're they're not coming up short, they're hitting it, they're posing on it. So this player's posing on it and it goes over the flag. It's like two yards too far, goes in the water. So the players walk into the drop zone and he is just
going through to caddy right. It's got the finger pointing, and my dad live on air, says, this is everything you need to know about being a professional golfer. Longer short is always going to be the caddy's fault. Left to right is going to be the coach's fault. Body hurts. You can blame that on the trainer or the physio, go up in a bad mood, wife, or golfin's fault or both, but never the player. And my dad said it live on air, and that is basically that is
tour player one oh one. It's never going to be their fault. We joke about that, guys, but that is part of the job, right It's the part of the job that I've got as an instructor. It's definitely part of the job that you guys, have. Part of being a caddy is you got to thick skin because you're gonna get blamed for some stuff. You're My uncle Billy, when I had him on my putty, said name me another job to where he said this happens. And you guys have seen this, It's happened probably to you guys
as well. You can be right as a caddy for seventy one holes, right for four days and the last hole you could give one bad number and it cost the player of the tournament, and you can lose your job almost instantaneously. And my uncle Billy said, name me another job where you are ninety five percent right and you're gonna get fired for one thing that you got wrong. It's like there's no other job in the world where
that happens. How do you deal with And we all get it, we get it as coaches, but you guys get it more than anybody. The dynamic on the golf course where you you know that you made a mistake, he's hit one in the water, he's made double. Maybe it was you. He was in between clubs. You wanted them to hit one club or you didn't hit the other. But you know that you're going to get it right, and you know you're going to get yelled at. You know you're going to get screamed at. How do you
deal with it? Yeah, it's probably the best.
Yeah, well I don't snap clubs if I didn't make them take the course. I tend to deal with it slightly more, you know, than a slightly calmer manner. But yeah, it's just claud it. It's like the secret source. That just one of the things you know, experience. You know, for the first time you make a mistake as a professional caddy, it's like the world has ended. I mean, you know that you just want the ground to sallow you up and you want it all to be over.
But then you start to realize as you mature as a caddyers and human being, people make mistakes. It's going to happen. I make mistakes, We all make mistakes. Anybody who takes the course will make mistakes, and it's just accepting that, and it's just learning how to handle that and come back from that. The best manner not to get flustered by it, to stay calm. If you've made a mistake, own it, don't you know.
Honesty.
When we touched on earlier, on quite cliche at times what I'm saying, but it's just it's very much so you just got to stay in the moment, remain very calm, collect your thoughts, and just concentrate on what you're doing next and just make sure you deliver some good information for the remainder of the round.
And I'm sure it is tough guys early on in your career where you have that situation, it's a new relationship you don't have, you know, five ten years of experience you know of doing it. It must be quite daunting to have that an experience where you know that famous story about Tiger and Steve Williams at the pgat I think it was at Medina, Tiger called Stevie in on a pott and Stevie backed him off of something. But it does take guts to do that, right. The
wind switches. It's early in your career. You're in between seven and eight, and all of a sudden he's chosen a club and the wind switches. It's going to be hard to say, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, the wind just switch. We got to go with something else. Early on in your career, it's hard to make those calls, isn't it, because you don't have the experience to say no, no, no, this is what we do here in this situation. No, no, exactly, Claudon.
And also like that's relative to prize money as well, you'll cut into the vent or, you'll cut in a lower rank. Event a mistake, of course, it might it might cost you, as a caddy, a couple of hundred and two, three hundred euros. But you get to the you get to the big stage, and you make a mistake of that, I mean it can cost I mean, I mean.
I'll be honest to give you a story.
Now, I remember we were playing, so we were playing it was the last time we were playing the Hondas.
It wasn't that long ago. I want to say it was twenty twenty two.
We're playing the Honda, and for some reason they had no Sorry I take that back. We're playing Bayhill. Sorry, I don't know why I said the Honda. So we're playing We're playing Arnold Palmer Bayhill twenty twenty two. I've carried seventy holes brilliantly. And my man hates I mean, he hates that place. He hates that He just and somehow I've got him around, he's laid up on the
par five. He's hit it on and we made but oh, it's just and for some reason, I don't know why Bayhill did this, they thought, let's get the seventeenth pole and let's put the tea on the bottom level, not even the top level. Some reason they started putting down the bottom level. And I'm like, we've just played sixteen and the winds wind's been into so I'm like, we spin around up and the wind's gonna be helping off the right and I'm uber confident, feel like everything's going perfectly.
It's a perfect nine nine now in the time we've walked from the sixteenth into the seventeen through the winds.
Obviously later on the date st just to creep round and maybe there was a slight old Yeah, I've cut it up into right left wing. Anyway, this thing's short, I mean too, it's not even made the bunk splash with a nine iron.
Yeah. He twenty yards out, I mean twenty yards out.
And the worst thing is, yeah, we said we have to trop forward to the drop zone, yeah, which is about twenty yards in front of us, and he said, look for me, went nine.
One again a I went.
Hits a nine zero from the drop zone, stiffs it makes bogey and went absolutely mental. But I mean and that that was only two years ago, so I mean, it happens. Look, it happens. I did a like your uncle Billy said, I did a great job for you know, ninety eight percent of the whole tournament. And what my point was that mistake there, that that shot might have cost him there or I cost him or whatever whatever happened. That was two hundred and forty thousand dollars that mistake.
He made the point.
He made the point about telling me on the driver Jack from Ville, next week, you're kind of players next week, of course he did. Yeah, so that's the personal story of how much you know, how how it can affect you. But at the time it was you know, it was a hard one to swallow, but you know, it happens. Is there's times where you know, I'm sure caddies have given maybe got wrong numbers wrong the ardent. It's work in their favor and maybe they've gone on and made
money out. I don't know, but yeah, that's what a person sorry to me.
My favorite thing about tour players is they do the same things to you guys that they do to instructors. They can get into that headspace like we're trying to have them not play well like I want like I want to give you like from a caddy stamp. But yeah, no, I wanted to give you a bad number here so you can rinse it in the water and we go from making four point fifty this week to making you know,
seventy eight grand. No, No, that's exactly what I've wanted to have happened here, is I want to make this little amount of money this week as possible. It's crazy way they think. Sometimes, guys, give me caddies that you guys admire, Caddies that you look at, you know, either currently in the game or in the past, that you've been out with. But give me some names of caddies that you guys look out and go. Man, he's a good.
Cattle Mick Doran for me, Mick Doran, Oh yeah, currently currently Lee Westwards bag man. He's always been a bit of a role model and a bit well a good friend of mine and for me, a bit of my sort of like I'm not gonna say caddy crush, but yeah, certainly, yeah, I like, I think.
Mix it, I got a great one.
We call him he throws cross because every everything that he throws across wind. So I remember the sixth doll at Race to do buys caddying for Thomas Bjorn and it's a short path three over water. It's probably one forty five, so there's like four yards that pins on four yards over the water. So he stood there with Thomas. He's given him the number wherever he's ready to go. He's got I think he's got nana and it's slightly
into the window wherever it is. And I stood there and Thomas is over the ball and mixed gone, whoa, whoa, whoa, And I've looked at him.
I'm like, well, he goes, there's a there's a gust coming. So we're all we're all stood there looking like where's this gust.
He goes, yeah, just give it, just give it fifteen seconds. So we're like, where's this gust coming from?
Next thing?
This gust comes from over a house, and I stay, that's on on Jamira Golf. This gust comes through, goes back, goes past us, and he's like, right, Thomas, you're good to go now.
Fans over it hits this nine nine, it's like two foot and I'm like, what was that?
Like, it was unbelievable how he noticed his gust. And it's like it's thinking. It's situations like that where you think these guys have been around a long time and the experiences is creeping in.
I mean, if he's to if he wanted to kind of model a caddy program off of I mean, I can't think of a better person Billy Foster, Right, I mean, if you look at the job that Billy Foster is done, if you look at the bags that Billy's been on
major champions I mean, it's just smarty. When you're looking at the curriculum for doing a course like this on caddying, are you looking when you're coming up with the courses and the information and the curriculum, are you looking at specific individuals that that are caddies that you say, yeah, I think he does that really really well. That's something we could put into the course because I think everybody that caddies at the highest level, again, we're all in
the same boat. We're hired by professional golfers. Everybody's role and everybody's skill set is different, Right, did you take smarty real world experiences with other caddies and say, okay, yeah, no, this guy does this really really well, we're going to put that in. We like the way that he addresses this,
We're going to put that in. Because obviously the wealth of caddies, everybody's got their own strength as a caddy, right, everybody's got their own you know, as you said, see the secret sauce, Right, caddies have the secret sauce as well. So did you try and take your experiences and say, okay, yeah, we've got to put this in.
Yeah, one hundred percent. I mean I still do it to this day. You know, you'll see something a caddy does, whoever that might be.
You know.
And I got lucky early on in my career because I was working for Dan and he was around Westy and Billy was caddying through the time. So I've got to spend a lot of time with Billy. I can't sit here and say that I've not learned loads from him, and everything that's probably a lot of stuff in this course has probably come from him at some point. And if you look at the way I write notes in my yardage book and everything like that, it's all from
basically what I've learned from other caddies. It's not you know, it's stuff I've picked up along the time. And you know, when we talk about building this course, we're trying to give you like a real broad spectrum of knowledge. So can you work Brighton one day and work for someone you know like Rice? He said with HAROLDY just wants real simple there's your close.
The answer to the answer to that is now, yeah, the answer to that. The answer to that is no, guys, because it worked. If you worked for Bryson for any sort of time period and then worked for HB three for any sort of time period, you'd end up in a mental asylum because having to deal with both of those two guys would be so so difficult. Chalk and cheese, Chalk and cheese. What attribute do you, guys think makes a great caddy someone who wants to do this course?
If you said, listen, we've got this course Caddy Clubhouse. We're going to try and teach you how to be a great caddye, But in my opinion, to be a great caddy this is a non negotiable from me.
I think you've just got to put the work in Claud I think lazy caddies will get caught oun't because, like like we said before, preparation if you if you're lazy in your preparations, not where it needs to be, and you need to start answering. Answering questions that your golfers putting that you're on the golf course and you can't answer them, you soon get caught out quick. So I think for me, it's all about putting the time and effort in being being properly prepared for every situation.
I mean, the game's changed so much nowadays. Obviously a lot of these guys are in the gym before the round, after the round, you see. I mean you see it with the guys week in, week out. But I just think, like Smarty said before, and like you said, preparations massive is just putting the time, the time and effort in and being fully prepared ready for them questions that you pop. Your players going to ask.
You, Adam, what do you think makes it? What? What are some non negotiables for you from a caddy standpoint right?
One one word And I know the boys know what I'm going to say because I said all the way through the club.
Course, adaptation.
It's just the one thing if you can adapt to the whether it be your thirst extended gap, your Harold Vanna, you need to constantly adapt, whether it be a different whole, you know, different tournament, different weather conditions. The ability to adapt is just absolutely crucial for me, and it defines caddying Smarty.
Yeah, I'll throw the other guys under the bus. You're the only one that's that's carty for someone with a major champion and a green jacket. When you get those things, they're differentiators. You were caddying for someone that was a friend in Danny Willett. Was there a point in that tournament when you guys won the Masters where you guys went, holy shit, we're about to win the Masters.
Not about to win it. But I remember walking off that fifteenth green because you know, it's like at golf tournament, you have no idea what's going on elsewhere. And I remember walking off that fifteenth and guys stood up in the grandstands hand, you know, head in the hands, and I'm like, what is going on? Anyway, they changed the scoreboard and I remember stood on that tea and Dan went to the bathroom on sixteen and Billy and Westy
are there there one behind us? And Billy goes, oh, it looks like it's just me and you kid, and I was like, oh shit, shit. I was like, so yeah, we're not wonned by one shot lead. And then walking up eighteenth onto the green and he had seen he had a twelve foot pot, I'm like, and he asked me to read it. I'm like, what you're asking me to read this for? Just just nudge it near the ole? Who cares about the line, Just get it? So, yeah,
I remember those moments and stuff. It's it's ridiculous and you don't probably appreciate it the laughter, to be honest, but yeah, it's we had three holes where you feel some serious, serious pressure and they are the best moments by a mile.
But yeah, to be a professional caddy, how do they find you? Guys? What's the process?
Yeah, we've you know, we've got the website Catti clubous dot com and you can go on there. All the informations on there, all the information about courses, different modules. It's going to be live in roughly three weeks. You're going to be able to work through it, work through there. Everything will be step by step it'll take you through work, you through into the community and all the different access that we're going to give you or be there for you.
So it should be. We've made it, tried to make it as simple as possible for people, and you can do it at your own pace, and you can do it from your own home and we'll we'll try and help you every step of the way.
And Adam, I think because of your background starting off at a private club and being a club caddy, I do think that. I mean, every single tournament we have at my club, the Floridian, there will be you know, they're trying to get caddies for every group, for every you know, every player, there's always a couple of caddies
that are new. They don't know, they're not good, they're just basically going to carry the bag and you know they're not thinking about it as a profession for the people that want to get their feet wet at the club level, how important do you think something like this is and how important also, Adam, do you think this is going to be moving forward to where you can go to caddy masters at clubs and say, listen, we've
got these guys. They've taken our course this is their kind of CD because that, to me is something I think that is going to be. If this thing takes off, it can be vital. Like you said, agents, coaches, caddies. I mean, we all have players, you know. I teach a girl on the LPGA three weeks ago her caddie Quintin. She's like, I got to find a new caddy. If you're on tour, you can go through the tour caddies, right,
you can ask around and stuff. But when you're at a private club and they're looking for good quality care, I think this could be something that clubs, head pros, caddy masters use and utilize so that they can get the best caddies for the members at their club. Yeah.
I agree with you, Claude, And I think something I thought about before we did this pod let me ask you this. So, I mean, I don't know anything about the collity of the caddies at the Floridian, but how much is a green Triit green? Like a green fit the Floridian if I wanted to go play, if I could.
I mean it's a private club, so I mean they're I think guest fees are. Yeah, they're in that kind of three fifty to four hundred range and the caddies you know, normally are getting probably you know, anywhere between fifty to one hundred US per play. Yeah, okay, fair enough.
So I think if you're going to go to a gold club and for example, the Fluidian or whatever, and you're paying, you're in that sort of three to five hundred.
Green pea mark.
I think the club owes it to you to provide a good caddy, and I think that's where we come in. I'm not saying these clubs they've all got all the clubs of good caddies, but the inconsistency throughout the caddy program is something that is real. It's something we're going to go into the golf clubs, and we'd like to encourage golf clubs to utilize our services so we can
elevate caddi program. Because having done four or five years club Acaddy, myself and I've done a bit of research and still in touch a lot of members, and definitely in consistency throughout caddi programs is something we were looking to address. And I really do think if you're going to spend if someone's going to spend five hundred dollars playing and really good golf course. We owe it to them as caddies or the golf club to give them that experience back in the caddy Yeah, and I mean I.
Think that for a long time, caddies were kind of thought of not only in the in the club situation, but you know, in the professional game as well. Yeah. I mean, if you're caddying for a superstore, you're going to make a lot of money. But historically the caddies have not been treated well. They've been kind of treated like their third class citizens. And it's got to be frustrating for the three of you because they're like, listen, this is this is my life's work, this is my profession,
this is my job. I'm not messing around, screwing around, you know, trying to follow the sun and get us sometime. This is what I do for a living. And there are people that, you know, like instructors. You know, I'm incredibly lucky to have been in the right place at the right time to work with the players that I have. But you guys know, there are loads of caddies that could do what you guys are doing at the elite level.
They're just never going to get that opportunity, right, They're not in that fraternity, They're not in that kind of club, so to speak of people that are ever going to get access to elite golfers. I also think one of the things that this would be great for guys is, you know, in the summertime, elite juniors that are going and playing the junior circuit. I mean the I teach a kid that who I just had on the pod,
no a caain't. He lost in the semi he lost in the finals of the USM, but he got a caddy at the Porter Cup where he finished second, and he kept him this entire summer and used him at the USM. And he's talking about using him when he gets to the final of the USAM. You get into the Masters in the US Open. So no, even though he didn't win the USM, he gets into the Masters
in the US Open next year. I think this could also be a great kind of resource for parents of junior golfers that say, listen, I'm going to play in a tournament where I need a caddy. Let me get somebody that has some experience that has worked for all of a sudden, you are a dream chaser. Trying to get through Q school and you're going to finals in Europe, or you're going to finals to get on the corn ferry. That's where I think you guys, guys coming out of
college could utilize caddy fluffof citizen. I've made it to final stage. Now I want to get a real caddy that's been to final stage before, or then maybe has some history caddying for someone that's got.
Status exactly that. I think it's an opportunity both ways, whether it's you know, like the amateur that you said, you know, whether he's working through the US ARM he gets his big break in the Master's US Open, who knows what he might do there. If you're caddying for him and you've provided value and hopefully helped him, he might top ten that week. You never know, we might
top five. It gets another couple of PJ tour starts saying for someone at Q school, you know, like you could be working for the right person at Q School and you might be working them for five ten years and have an unbelievable career with them. So I think, you know, just having access to those jobs both ways, whether it's for parents, you know, for players coming up or just pros that are trying to make the way
and like you say, just chasing their dream. Like do you know what, I'm just going to give it that extra push. I'm going to try and add that one percent on and get a good caddy and just give it everything I've got.
Well, I mean, if you look at Shane Nider, he's from Victor Hoblin. I mean, Shae caddy for a long time on the PGA tour, caddy for a bunch of good players, and I think through Wasserman, who's now management company, they got him to caddy for Vic in the two majors that he played as an amateur. He turned pro. As soon as he turned pro, they called Shay And I still remember when Shaye called me and we're at Memori and he was like, listen, I'm caddying for Luke
list right now. I've got this opportunity to caddy for Victor Hoblin. I caddied for him when he was an amateur. We got along really well. What do you think I should do? I mean, obviously the rest is history. Vic's one of the best players in the world. He won the FedEx's probably going to win majors. But that's a great example of someone caddied for him while he was
still an amateur in big tournaments. And I think that's where you guys could maybe get ahead of the curve and say, listen, we have a resource now to where you do get into the US AM for the first time as a junior golfer. You've never played in a big tournament before. You know, the kid that I teach, no Ah Can he qualified for the US Junior last summer, had a risk injury. So the Usam that he got into and made it to the finals, that was the first UFGA event he'd ever play, So it's the biggest
tournament he's ever played. And in that situation, you want to have a caddy that knows what they're doing, that has been in the hunt and so in that respect, I think you guys can kill it doing that. So Datty Clubhouse dot com. It goes live next next month.
Yeah, but around three is the website's already up and you can have access to it now that actually being able to complete the course is going to be another three weeks.
And everything's online.
Everything's going to be online. It will go into in person training down the line, but at the minute, we just made it as easy as possible for people and just keep it online courses.
Well, you know, I think it's a great idea and I think you, the three of you, I think it's smart because, like said, I mean, people ask me, I get you guys are like, like, we're in the same boat. People DM social media, Hey how do I get out on tour teaching tour players. I'm like, yeah, I wish I knew how to do that. Maybe I'm going to do the same thing in reverse for for people that want to be for people that want to get yelled at by tour players, create a course for that guys.
I think you guys are going to have some success with this, and I think, you know, this could be something that we look back on in five ten years and we think, man, why didn't somebody come up with this before? Because caddying is fun. I mean it is and as you guys can attest to, you get the right bag, you can make a living now. I mean you can make real money. I mean just ask Teddy
Scott Caddy AND's doing for him one thing. Do anybody does Anyboddy, the three of you, does anyone think Teddy Scott, Missus Bubba Watson anyway, Yeah, I do think Bubba Wats and Missus Teddy's golf. I guarantee that Missus Denn Scott guys really cool to talk to you. I think this can be really really cool. I'm happy to help in any way I can. But this is this is an idea that I don't think people realized we needed, but we definitely need a way to make caddying become a
viable profession. It is for the people that do it. But just like if you want to be a golf instructor, if you want to work in a pro shop, if you want to be a club bitter, there is a way to go about. If you want to be a GM at a country club, there's there's degrees and ways you go about this. I think what you guys are doing is smart, and I think you guys can be at the forefront of kind of creating that next generation of caddies at the club level or at the elite
tour level. So good idea. Wish I would have thought of it. And uh, you guys are definitely buying buying dinner next time for sure. Thanks Thanks close, great stuff. Guys, we'll push people to it and Caddie clubhouse dot com go check it out. Guys, Thanks for coming on and really really enjoyed talking to you. I think you guys are gonna get some good people in the database and we will look forward to seeing how this takes off
down the line. Some of a bunch, great review. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.