Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About Burstella Podcast. I'm Sarah Lamarquin, your host, and this year I have had the privilege of sitting down with some of the biggest names in the country. Because when Estrala's celebrities are ready to talk, they come to Something to talk About. We're continuing to publish across the summer break, and we'll be back with a brand new episode on January twelfth.
In the meantime, each day for the next two weeks, we'll be revisiting some of your favorite episodes from the past year, and I'm happy to report that there have been a lot of popular episodes, but out of the fifty we released in twenty twenty four, we've narrowed it down to ten conversations to revisit over the summer break,
and today you'll hear from Aita Bartro's. I spoke to her on International Women's Day back in March, just as she was preparing to step down from her role of chair of the ABC at the age of eighty two. There were a lot of takeaways from this conversation, including the inside story of what happened when Lee Sales once parked in Ida's car spot at the ABC. So without
further ado, here's Ita Ita. If I were to read out your CV in full, all we would have time for in this conversation is for me to then say thank you Aita, buttro's Acob for coming into the studio and goodbye. But most recently, of course, has been your five year tenure as chair of the ABC, which comes to an end later this week, which is largely why I finally convinced you to come into the studio and
talk to me for something to talk about. Now, our rollers, high profile and complex as chair of the national broadcaster, was always going to bring unique challenges, very unique eyes and lows, but perhaps none more so than in recent events following the termination of Antoinette Letou from a short term contract filling in on ABC Radio Sydney latellast year after she shared a post on social media about the
war in Gaza. Now that matter is currently before the Fair Work Commission, So I understand that you may be limited in what you can say.
Not only limited, I can't talk about it, but can.
I ask you how you're feeling about such a controversial chapter of the ABC's recent history, coinciding with the end of your term. Has it taken a little bit of the shine of the past five years.
I think you're trying to find a very clever way to get me to talk about what I can't talk about. I simply cannot talk about that matter.
Well, I was going to ask if there was any response that you wanted to say to accusations that have been leveled by various members of the public and from staff within the ABC that this incident has shown that the National Broadcaster can be influenced by powerful lobby groups its independence is undermined.
Any comment on that, Well, I think the role of independence of the National Broadcaster is paramount to what we do and it's enshrined in legislation. And Look, I've been working in high profile roles in the media for a very long period of time and I've received lots of letters and emails over that time and the ABC and I have never have never been influenced by outside lobbyists, people passionate about their particular causes, politicians, commercial interests, you
name it. The ABC has never caved in. I've never caved in, and neither as the managing director nor the board. We're very passionate about the independence of the role of the ABC, and we're very conscious about duties as board members.
I mean, there are inevitabilities in life. Everyone says death taxes, I would say if you live in Australia. Also constant arguing about the ABC from all sides of politics. Different debates go on over the years. All the ABC is left leaning. There's other people say all the ABC's at the whim of whoever is in government. It's a tale as old as time in many chairs before you have also well literally sat in that chair and had to
contend with this. The last time you and I spoke, Aita was the ninetieth anniversary of the ABC in twenty twenty two, and I think at that time what we were talking about was there been criticisms from the Liberal Party that the ABC was being not supportive enough of the government, and at that time you said, it is not the role of the ABC. It's not my job as chair to be keeping either side any Prime minister, any opposition leader.
That's true. I mean the role of the ABC chair is not to be friendly, not to be necessarily unfriendly, but certainly not to be friendly to politicians, whatever party they represent. That's not the role our role is to entertain and inform and educate this round in public, and we do that by maintaining our independence.
So I certainly don't imagine that what's happened of late is new for you, in that it is an ongoing conversation and it certainly will be for your successor, and will probably be when the ABC is celebrating its one
hundredth and ninetieth in a century. But I also wanted to ask it is just a matter of public record, Ita that it was August of last year that you announced that you would not seek a second term as ABC chair when your five year ends in March twenty twenty four, and yet despite that being out there six months ago, I think that's when I first started the conversation about could we do a cover of Stella and a conversation on this podcast to mark the end of
your term. Recently, the Prime Minister had a press conference to announce your successor, Kim Williams. That was reported by some media outlets as so Anthony Albanezi announces Isia Butchro's will leave ABC chair position. I was watching Breakfast TV and I saw one commentator because they had all crossed to this what appeared to be a fairly quickly called press conference from the Prime Minister. I saw one commentator speculate that, oh, well, this must be because of the
recent controversy. Is this frustrating knowing that you, as I say it's on the public record, decided more than six months ago that you would not be seeking a second term.
Well, some people are members of the media, and I would suggest to you that they're not well enough informed. And if I was going to be critical of younger members of the media and maybe older, but I suspect we're talking about younger is that they don't research well enough the topics on which they're going to make pronouncements. And you know, I did notify the government and the Minister Michelle Roland in August last year that I was
not going to seek another term. I think five years is quite a long time to serve the ab thing. I know some chairs have gone on and done a second term, but I'm conscious that I am a woman at a certain age and despite the President of the United States Joe Biden, thinking he should run another term, I don't think he should. I think sometimes you need to examine yourself and say, well, I am a person of a certain age and everything's fine and cognitively I'm good,
so the doctors say. But still it's just weigh it up another five years, what would it be like? And I think there's a time when you have to know in yourself when you need to step aside, and I felt that was that time. So it had nothing to do with any current events that are going on, and it really just reminds me of how adequately trained young josts.
Yes, well, I have to say I don't disagree with that. I'm always reluctant as I'm sure at some level you are to as ultimately journalists to give out about the media, because the truth is all parts of the media, commercial or publicly funded, are facing very challenging times under resource. But I agree that is absolutely a lack of research.
And that's got to be the difference between media and TikTok is that we as journalists do our research and that if you are writing that headline, that basic fact checking has happened. But for you, is there a partner? I absolutely understand. That's why I wanted to use this opportunity to clarify that you were already leaving that was a decision made a long time ago for the reasons
that you've just articulated. And I really hope Joe Biden does listen to this, because I agree strongly, by the way, but that's okay. I warn't sidebar this into conversation about US politics. But if there had been scope, and there isn't. So this is a hyphathetical, but to say, actually, I'm going to finish up at the end of the year because I just feel I'm dealing with a little bit
of unfinished business right now. Is there a part of you that just feels in terms of legacy and all that you have achieved over the last five years that I want to ask you about that there is going to be a perception for some that it was unfinished business and you were leaving at a difficult time.
Well, if that's their perception, they're wrong. I mean, I can't help. I can't help what happens in the time that I've told the Minister I'm not renewing my term, and what's going on now. The ABC is never still.
There's always something happening at the ABC. Everybody has a viewpoint about the ABC, and that's right and proper, and so they should, and you know, anyone that draws a different conclusion that you know, it's just happened and it's coincidental that you know my term is coming to an end. Kim william was a weird, very robust chair. I don't think I don't think there's a I don't think he's a shrinking violet at all. And I'm sure he liked me.
Is used to this kind of activity in the media because he too has a media pedigree, if I can put it like that, And I am so glad the current government continued to put a chair in with media experience because I think that I was the first chair that had extensive media experience like I've got, and Kim Williams is similar and that can only be good for the National Broadcaster.
Do you have any advice for Kim Williams.
I wouldn't dream of giving Kim Williams advice. He's his own man.
Did anybody give you advice when you were appointed to No.
You know they did, I mean listeners. Did you know in the park when I was walking the dog? However, don't change this, don't change that, but any listeners, No, nobody gave me any advice. At all.
Everyone does have an opinion on the ABC just said that, whether it is somebody that you're walking past in the park or somebody on the website formerly known as Twitter, How has that been for you? Because my priority as a journalist, and I think should be for all journalists, is ultimately to the audience, wherever it is. The people that listen to your podcasts, of people that watch your show, the people that read your magazine, are reading your story online, whatever platform I have.
It's always the audience. It's always the audience, whatever it is, whether it's print, radio, TV.
I mean, you've worked for a lot of people, and you've had people work for you over the years where everyone is charming and with their opinion and often you just have to cut it out as an editor in chief. But being chair of a public broadcaster, I imagine has brought a level of everyone wanting to give you their two cents, but also some people thinking, well, as a taxpayer, I have a stake in this, and you have to actually
take my two cents on board. Is that anything that you'd ever really dealt with in your career?
Sure?
This role?
Sure? I mean people used to think they had the right to tell me something about the Women's Weekly, something about Cleo, something about the telegraphs. That's fine, that's fine, that's feedback, and it's sometimes it's very useful. I don't mind it at all, and usually I make some sort of acknowledgment of their letters. But an acknowledgment of a letter or an email does not mean I'm endorsing whatever
it is they're writing to me about. It's simply being courteous and saying, right, I've got it, I've noted it, I've read what you had to say. I'm sending it to this department or that department or someone else. You know, whatever it is.
Is that something through your whole career you've done. Because I ignore a lot of emails, and I'm not proud of it, but I do sometimes I think about you, and I think a bit eighter right back. I don't think about that all the time. Don't worry, but there are moments where I will think, this is probably not okay, that I'm just ignoring or ninety nine percent of my emails are sitting in the drafts folder.
Well, you probably don't have executive assistance or secretaries like I used to, and they have been very useful to me because I could sometimes dictate a reply in the days, in the days when people did shorthand and shorthand. Now they don't, so you tend to sort of just put a note down about which way you want to go.
I mean, I'm sure that's part of it, but I do really think, yes, certainly, you know, there would be a multitude of administrative reasons that I don't, but I think that a big part of the difference is just that courteous commitment that you have and you are. It's very some people would think old fashion phrase, but you're just extremely well mannered. I can't imagine you not engaging or acknowledging well.
You know, sometimes people write to me about very intimate things in their life. It could be about a domestic violence issue, or a death in the family, a troubled child, a mental health issue, a dementia issue. Those are very different from people that are writing to criticize something we're doing in the ABC or to lobby me. And those letters, yes, I do. I do respond to them personally because they've
written because they need a helping hand. And you know, I'm in the fortunate position because I've worked in a lot of these areas where I can actually suggest. I never tell them this is what they should be doing, but I can suggest where they might seek help, where they might find counseling. Sometimes people do reach out to people they don't really know, but they think they know
because of your profile. And I think, of course you're going to help them, of course, because if it were me and I was in that desperate sort of situation, I'd be hoping someone would give me a hand.
Absolutely, I will say I do right back to anyone in that situation as well. And I think it's actually it's such a privilege of journalism, isn't it. Ultimately, if somebody has heard or read or seen something and they think I might be ready to talk about that, I want to tell this person. I think of it some ways as that disclosure where then we are essentially the referral service. As you say, We're not there to actually
be the advice. But it's just that privilege of knowing whatever it is has sparked somebody to actually reach out.
I think it's trust. They feel they can trust you, they can trust you to give them a sensible sort of reply.
Let me ask you about the five years at the ABC. What for you have been some of the standout memories, What have been the greatest moments? As you leave on your final day later this week, what do you think you'll be most proud of and would there be any do overs or regrets?
Well, I think I think the passion of them, of the staff for public broadcasting, they are really passionate about it and it's hard to ignore. I think that when I arrived, I bought rigor, stability and governance because the ABC had suffered organizational management problems of a strange nature where you had a chair and a managing director who were not talking to each other directly. They were talking
through other people. Now, you cannot run any organization, let alone the ABC if the chair and the managing director are not talking, And you think, how on earth did this develop? And I never read anything about this situation. I never got an inkling of it from the government, and so you were right. When I walked in the door at Ultimo, where the ABC's headquarters are, I thought, oh, this place feels terrible. You know there was It just
didn't feel right. And then I heard the story and I got more details of what had been going on the board was shattered. They'd had to appear before Senate, estimates Senate just for the Senate. They had to appear before the Senate, and you know, and that was a very sober experience for them all, and scary really because they're not high profile. They weren't necessarily high profile, and they weren't suddenly used to being in the limelight. And the management team was in a state of shock. I
think that's fair to say. I mean, nobody quite knew what was happening. And I could sense all of this, and I'm thinking, oh, hello, I'm going to be busy. And so what I did was trying to restore I'm not only tried I did. I restored stability. I reorganized the board. I put the governance back into the organization, and I think I think that was a very positive thing that I did during my tenure. We now make content for digital, whereas before we used to make it
for broadcast. That's been a big change. The government, the then government, which was the Coalition government, we're keen for the ABC to move. They wanted us to move completely entirely out of Ultimore, but we agreed that perhaps a percentage of staff, and so I said to the then Communications Minister Paul Fletcher, well, I'm thinking of moving to paramatter and he said, oh, I didn't realize you were thinking like that, and I said, why not. I said,
I've worked in paramatter. I know what's going on up there. It's fantastic. And so we said about organizing a moved paramatter and that will take place in what it should happen in April May this year. That's it's all going. Well. I'm really sorry. It's a lang Walker Corporation building and lang took me through it on our floor when on my first visited, and I'm so sorry he died recently. He was he was a really special bloke, very dynamic.
What else have I been up to. I think I've encouraged the five year Plan so everybody knows what we're doing, the government as well as ourselves. I think those are the most important things I got up to. There's so many. There's so many really, but you know when you try to isolate them in an interview, suddenly think, well, what have I been doing?
And five years is a long time, and I mean there's been a change of government, there's been a little thing called COVID, will not come and gone, but it's certainly.
COVID was a big challenge for all of this, all of us, and especially us, you know, because we're broadcasters and we're twenty four to seven. But somehow we managed to keep it all going. We managed to keep it all going. The staff was fantastic. They were fantastic, you know, they were determined to keep it going, and we came through COVID.
What about the doovers or regrets or is that even anything that you think about.
I don't have regrets. I don't have regrets. You can't change anything you've done, you know. You just you make decisions and you hope to God they're going to work out. You make them for all the best reasons in the world. We've had board changes, we've had you know, stuff, difficulties, challenges, and you weather them out. You just think, all right, well, I'll just see what happens here, and then you try and give advice because it chairs you know, it's a
strategic role. But obviously I have a lot of experience, there's very little. I haven't an accountant really when you think about it. When I think about it, and you know, sometimes I can say, well, have you thought of have you thought of? And what about? What about? And have you thought of? It's a very good way to get into a conversation to give advice.
Is that a phrase that you found you've used throughout your recent career or particularly as a chair.
Oh, I think I think it might crop up more than I more than I realized, you know, because I've been doing some mentoring of young women in marketing roles, one in China, one in Japan, and two here in Australia, and it's been really interesting. I was a bit worried at first that, you know, I hadn't really done I'd done mentoring, but not specifically this kind of work, and I thought, oh, I won I wonder if I should be burning up on something. But when I was doing them,
all I thought, this is this is terrific. I know, I know the answer. So I've been through all of this and I've really enjoyed the experience. Fantasic. It's nice sharing knowledge.
Actually, absolutely, I can't believe that you would even doubt that. I can't really think, I mean, talk about winning the lottery, you're forgetting artel butchers as a mentor, I would think this, I.
Know, but You've just got to be sure that you know everything that you're going to be asked. I mean, I'm a very hard taskmaster on myself.
In twenty twenty two, you delivered the annual Andrew Ollie Media Lecture. Part of it that you spoke about that night item was that are we of the media as critical of ourselves as we should be. Good journalists always will be societies factseekers and truth tellers. It's never about lecturing the public on what they should think. Good journalism
is about reporting just the facts, not opinion. I interviewed you later that year, as I mentioned earlier, for the ninetieth anniversary, and asked you about that, and at that time you said, I've always thought journalists need to be a political We're meant to be unbiased. We're meant to deal with facts and not opinions. The moment we started dishing out bylines as though everyone had an entitlement to
an opinion, we open the floodgates to opinion journalists. And I don't mean the ABC by that, I mean the profession generally. Now, you have worked across all mediums throughout the course of your career, magazines, newspapers, radio, television. How have you, throughout your career navigated the line between commentary and facts and when did you first notice this increased blurring of the lines start to creep in.
I think social media has been the culprit here. You know, everybody feels they must share, God help us. They share the most ridiculous things half the time, and they always have an opinion, and they must tell you what their opinion is. And half the time you think, but I'm not really interested in what your opinion is. And you know, we talk about trivializing the news, and I'm sure it's got to do with the fact there's so much news.
It is trivial. You know, people write stories about I read them sometimes and I think, why are we writing about this peculiar happening in Alabama? Say you know about a dog the bit of cat, and you know, you think, is that really news? Do we need to know about this? And I just think we spend a lot of time with trivial news. Now I've put that down to social media, and I think Instagram is a perfect culprit and TikTok, all of them, really, they all feel they must share everything.
Do you remember when they used to share the meals, they ate out. They the users.
You have you been out with people that don't eat for five minutes because they've got their.
Phone out taking no, no, no, no, I don't. I don't have friends like that, and I would never do it. And I think, I think that's what it is. But what social media does is that people then take it for gospel some people and they think that that is correct, but it's not always accurate. But I think the role of journalists today is the same as it ever was, and that is to give facts and to be honest
in our reporting. And that means checking your facts and not just accepting what you're reading somewhere, but to go away and check it. You look it up, you go, you go Google or wherever you go, and you just check to make sure you're right. In the old days, the children said to me, oh, mamma, you back in
the old dates again. But in the older days, when we had sub editors who've been been turfed out of our business, which and I think are mistaken, a sub editor would come and pounce on you if you've made an error, and they'd say, I remember one attacking me once because I spelled Burke. B u r k No. I was a very young cadet, I've got to say. And the chief sub came prowling out of her office at the Women's Weekly and said, how do you spell Burke? And I said, b u r k no, you don't.
Or when she you know, she was really savage, and I know it's b o u r k and I and I never ever ever put anything into my copy like Burke without checking. It's a very important lesson when somebody really rouses on you. Oh boy, did I get in con trouble.
Very true, the wrong spelling of it's and it's oh that's always driven me crazy.
Well, I remember, I remember somebody at news court who was a terrible speller, and I even gave him a dictionary because I was trying to help him. And then he said to me, oh, miss Motrose. He said, I'm really sorry. He said, I just don't know how to sound the words, so I don't know what to look up. And I thought, oh my god.
The education was going to say, that's the weird conversation that should be having in primary sit I'm not in a newsroom. Just a quick question, though, that sub editor that called you out on misspelling Burke. Were they still on staff when you came back as the editor in chief of the title.
The chief sub but then that chief sub had become the news editor. And she was great. She helped me through in my early days.
Going back to the blurring of the align between opinion and facts. Lee Sales gave the Andrew Oli Media Lecture last year and she also really talked about the declining trust in media, and she said some reporters prefer to be activists and crusaders rather than fact finders or straight reporters. And I think, as you've answered, their social media is
the culprit. But my question would be for you for Lee Sales, I agree, I think that we absolutely because of social media, everyone now has got access to a megaphone. And it could be somebody banging on about politics on x which used to be known as Twitter, or it could be somebody doing a little post or video that goes viral on TikTok calling out what they perceived as
bad customer service at the cafe. So everyone journalist or otherwise if they want it, has access to this sense of I'm furious about this, I'm going to talk about it. So for those in the media, How do we deal with this? Can we put the social media genie back
in the bottle? Or do we have to accept that there's always now going to be a blurring of the lines between reporting an opinion, just to the fact that all of us, whether we work in the media or not, seen to be living in this relentless twenty four to seven opinion cycle.
Well, if like the ABC, you have a policy about social media which everybody knows and which we enforce, you obey the rules and if you don't obey the rules, you pay the consequence. And I think in the end or media will have rules. I mean, I think the BBC has rules about social media. It's hard to enforce because you know, people argue about their privacy and I
understand that. But if your opinion encroaches with your work of your employer, then I think you have a problem and you have to learn not to post not to post social media.
I suppose I was thinking from a long perspective, like five ten years, if the culture hasn't changed and social media is still this polemic driven world that it is now, because that's the other thing social media might can't down a bit that sounds extremely naive and it could well be one of the dumbest predictions I've made. I'm not even saying it will happen, but I do think sometimes
the heat can go out of things. I sometimes wonder if we do need to accept that this idea that we leave our opinions to the side is going to prove unrealistic for a lot of organizations in the long term if the culture doesn't change. It's a bit lighter. I thing light with juries. You know, juries always, as we know, is to be just don't consume any media. And it was an absolute travesty if you did. And then a few years ago I spoke about it on
a panel. I think I was asked and I thought, I think we need to be a bit realistic that these days it's impossible to escape really, so maybe we need to change the way that we're treating juries in the legal system, and maybe we need to say you will see media, but you just need to not let that in any way influence your deliberation process when it comes to a verdict.
Well, I can't predict the future, but you know they're all they're all situations that we will face obviously, and I think at the end of the day, the consumer is going to make a decision. So if you're if you're looking for news, you will go somewhere where they can. So it might be Stellar magazine. They might say, Stellar magazine can be trusted. I read them every every week, every week and it's all fine. Or we hope at the ABC it will be the ABC. I mean, we
we really emphasize trust that the viewers. That strange trust is. Our trust levels are rising again, thank Evans. It's about eighty percent, and we're very proud of that trust and we're very and it's really foremost in our mind that we maintain it. But I think the consumer will make their minds up. They'll think, no, that's a bit of trivia's a that's a bit of rubbish. I think I'll only buy a Stellar magazine and I'll read what they've got to say because I know I know they'll be correct.
That is a very wise.
The public is not stupid, right, Yeah, well the public isn't. The public is not stupid. They will make their own minds up. They always do.
We'll be back in a minute to find out. On the eve of International Women's Day, where the itis still encounters the Boys Club at this point in her career. I wanted to ask you about your thoughts on the tone of public discourse today within the media, but really
just within the culture and wider society. It seems to me that in the last ten years, in particular, again I hate to pin all the world's problems on social media, I personally think social media did create this where political disagreement or disagreement over everything that's been happening forever doubt,
the right to politely disagree has become very rare. That if I have different opinions from you, then you're an absolute moron and we just can't engage in any world I have to yell at you, whether it's on this platform or that platform. You're clearly not worthy of me engaging in. I feel like the tolerance for any discrepancy in life experience or views has become very, very non existent. It feels like there's a hyperpartisan culture and it's only getting worse. What's your view?
Only I agree with you? I mean, you can't disagree with anybody. I mean, if you do your racist or your sexist, or you know whatever, and you just think, goodness me, why can't we just agree to disagree. Why can't we just have a you know, you'd get a dinner party and say no, no, no, no, no, I don't agree with that. You know, the great robuts discussion would to follow and it was fantastic. But now you've got to be so careful because you might upset some one.
I want to find about current discussion in the public. It's so uncivil, it's so it's so nasty. You just think, why is everyone so nasty? I think on social media because they're anonymous and they think they can say anything, which just think, how can you really be that vile? Do you go around Do you wake up in the morning thinking I'm feeling really vile, I'm going to go on social media and let it all hang out. I don't know what's happened to people. They need more things
happening in their lives. I think I think they've got too much spare time. Maybe we have to be brave and just continue to disagree and not let the vocal minority drown out the vocal majority.
Yes, because I mean disagreeing as you say, that's okay, it's not the end of the world. We have to disagree and then we move on and it doesn't mean that that person is inferior to us. It doesn't mean anything. We discuss it. We have a difference of opinion. You vote differently to me, we're going to vote in a different direction on the referendum, whatever it might be between
two people or four people. Surely we have to go back to at least acknowledging and respecting that there's differences, rather than my side versus your side.
That's right, it's always my side versus your sign. I think we have to all think about where we're heading and what we want out of life and discussion and what sort of world are we leaving the children.
On a lighter note, mentioned Lee Sales in the OIE lecture last year. She also told a great anecdote about how she once parked in your car spot at the ABC because the staff car park was full, and she returned to find a beautifully written note under her windscreen wipe pat reading please don't in capital letters and double underlined park in my car spot again and staple two. It was a business card that read itcherbots Acob. Did you have cause to leave many notes like that?
No? I didn't, And you know the clue is because the car park was full. She parked in my spot. So when she parked in my spot, there was nowhere for me to park. What's there? Was I angry? Yes? I was, Yes, I was. I left a note there and I parked her in. I parked her in actually, and then blow me down. I left before her. I don't think I told her I parked her in, but
I left before her because she was on air. Was seven point thirty and so I think I left about seven and I thought, bloody hell, they're still here, and I was really drove off, and then it transpired. It was Lee, and apparently the bloke that the security guy was beside himself. Oh miss Sales, Oh miss Sales, it's you, she had to say. And of course then she did write to me, and you know that was fine. She
didn't tell, she didn't say. One day I came in and the sign was up, car park full, and I was only coming in for a couple of hours to do something before I had to go somewhere else, and I thought, Lee's going to come in and she won't get a spot. So I rang her up, or I got my aaid, or I texted her. I come from what I did. I might have sent her a text saying car park's full, I'm going out whatever time and you may have my car park and will notify security.
But I don't think she used it. But she didn't tell you that. No, no, no, I felt sorry for because you know, when the car park was full, it's impossible to find a park.
A lot of people would of course be daunted by ite Butcher's Acob, do you consider yourself to be intimidating?
No? Do you find me in timid? I mean, I.
Definitely think that you have an aura about you that would make me think. I was walked into this studio today by lovely woman Maria, and you know, I was saying, oh, my hair's like a little bit messy, you know, And I'm not worried about cameras and things like that. I'm just thinking item might think.
Sarah could come on, I'm here. You know me better than that.
I think that you just bring something out in people. And I think it's what I was talking about a little bit before. I think it's just the airtkit And like I said, just that well matted. It all sounds so you know, sort of obsolete or something but it isn't. It's a quality I think that you definitely would inspire in certain people. I've really got to sort of bring my a game opposite.
An please to hear it.
This Friday, March eight, will be International Women's Day. Every year. As you know, Ita, we hear people questioning do we still really need an international Wednesday? What's your answer to that? As we prepare to market for twenty one, I think it's good to reflect on how far we've come, because a lot of younger women don't realize how far we have come and all the things that we've managed to change since women's liberation. And I think it's also timely to reflect on how far we have yet to go.
I mean, certainly there's been improvement, and the government now has a national policy on gender equality, and I think that's a good thing because I think it's I think the progress is still too slow. I'd like to see fifty percent in everything. And the thing that really that I think men in particular have to absorb is that when we talk about women being blocked or being ignored, or their opinions being overlooked, or gender by happening at interviews,
which it all does or men stealing their ideas. Your daughters are being much better educated. Do they want an equal playing field for their daughters when they go out into the world after their university degree at which they outnumber men, or do they not, or do they want
them to be blocked? And I do think it's a male issue as well as a female issue, and we need to make sure that both boys and girls have equal opportunities, because I've got both, and you want of the opportunities to be there for both of them so that they can lead fulfilled lives. So I do think we still need them and need International Women's Day to reflect and pause about how far we've come and how
far we still have to go. I'm in the fight for equality, and identifying as a feminist is certainly something that men and women have an equal role in. This notion that only women can speak to this issue, I think is nonsensical. I think all of us have a role to play in conversations of equality, and I think that feminism and gender equality, when you genuinely achieve it, benefits everyone Because, as you say to you are a mother to a son and a daughter. I have two sons,
both of us. I know are passionate feminists. I don't wish that to be at the expense of my sons, and I know you didn't, but it never is. I've always thought it was ridiculous, this concept that the success of one gender has to come at the expense of another.
Absolutely, and I think it's really important that women, and I find it extraordinary that I still have to say this today, that women realize how good they are, and a lot of women still don't. They are really good at what they do, and you still have to remind them. You still have to remind them every now and again.
A woman that's quite high up the ladder and has all the potential of the world almost takes my breath away when I notice or she says something and I think, on my word, she doesn't realize how good she is. And so I go through my lecture. Do you realize how good you are? Do you realize what you could do? Do you realize what you've achieved? And you've just got a remind women they're really good at what they do, and you have to sometimes just give them a bit of a shove.
Have you ever had that voice of self doubt that I think you very rightfully say a lot of women, myself included, definitely suffer from Has that ever existed throughout your life and your career?
Not really. I mean I've taken roles and then thought, oh my god, what have I done? And then something inside of me says, you can do this. You know you can do this, and you are going to do it. So I have this sort of inner discussion with myself. But every now and again you think, ooh, what am I tagging on here? But that's a long time ago. I don't feel that any any longer. I suppose the more you go on and the more you do, the more at ease you are with the various things you take on.
I know this really ties into this idea that as a female chair, you're still in a minority in this country. You've also said that the male network is very strong. That was a quote from our last conversation in twenty twenty two, and I did want to ask you about that. Is the Boys Club as strong as it once was? Do you still encounter it yourself at this point in your life?
I think I have No. I don't encounter it, but I think I observe it. It's certainly still there. It's not as strong as it used to be. But I do think it's fair to say that some women are discriminated against because of their age, because of their their nationality there. You know, they may not they may have come from another country and their skin color. I think that bias still exists. Just have a look at the board makeup. You can see for yourself. If you have
a look, mind you men, men suffer the same. You know, we we're not a great embrace of diversity in the boardroom. I don't think.
How do we change that? Because this unconscious bias is real, some people still think that it doesn't exist. I mean, it absolutely is across all areas ethnicity, age. Of course, that's also something that you've going to be trailblazer in longevity in Korea, making sure that we're not missing people because of their gender, because of the color of their skin, because of their sexuality. How do we change this if it's not changing fast enough?
Well, I presume the government with its national policy on gender equality, has something in mind. And I just think you need to keep educating the people on the people that choose boards or choose executives that diversity actually pays off. Because if you truly represent the Australian community, which is made up of many different cultures, then you've got a
better chance of reaching them. It's a bit like it was really hard for women to get on boards and yet all the research showed you that companies that had three women on their boards had a better bottom line. And I always thought this was interesting, less fraud and you think you think, oh, hello, it's interesting. We must be very honest. Yeah, it was very It was imporced.
So it literally pays off to be better support than women. As I have mentioned, you are on the cover of Stella today, beautiful shuit. You are no stranger to a magazine cover and a big shoot. You very much. I think, in my view, captured in what I see as a very feminine Eis style. You've never shied away from that. I've always noticed that you have fabulous nails all the time, you wear beautiful jewelry. Do you have to look like that? No, I'm not saying that you have to look like that.
Were always accused you have to look a certain way to be on the cover of Stella. Not true. But we do see a lot of strong, successful women in public life and in positions of leadership that feel like, oh, I have to, you know, not be too feminine. If I wear pink, I'm going to look a bit silly. If I have my nails painted, everyone was going to think I'm a bit silly. Tell me a little bit about that.
I'm female. I mean, I don't have a problem with being a woman, and I think if you have to sacrifice your femininity to get on, you're failing. You're failing. I mean, I love my nails. I spend a lot of time looking after them. I think well kept nails are a sign of elegance, I suppose, and I don't think about it. I don't mind how anybody. I do mind how people dress when they come to work. They should look like they're coming to work, not like so
they're going to the beach. But you know, in executive roles, I haven't got a who. I don't mind what anybody looks like. You make your own choice. I think it's fair to say I'm a feminine woman, and I like being who I am and what I am.
It shouldn't be such a remind trait that I have to comment on it. But I think it is still probably something that is worth commenting on because I think that there are women I still hear it. Sometimes we go, oh, I just think about wear those heels. Maybe they won't take me seriously. It's still something that exists.
Everybody takes you seriously if you deliver the goods all you've got to do.
And when we come back, we'll find out what at eighty two Ita, Butchro's plans to do next? Ita, what next to you personally and professionally when you finish up as chair later this week?
Well, doors keep opening and they are opening. But I recently took on the chair of the Advisory Council of the Center for Healthy Brain Aging at the at UNSW at the University of New South Wales, and I'm interested in that because that's where they do a lot of dementia and cognitive research. And you know, I've got a background in that through my work with ALZ I'm as
Australia and now Dementia Australia. I'm interested in health and there's a lot of research going on there and I would love to be a part of or contribute to a cure for dementia or a really effective slowing down of dementia and so I thought, yeah, I'd really like to work with it. I really liked that job, so I've taken that on. And I've still got other courses that I work with Macular Degeneration Foundation and the Osteoporosis Foundation,
and i still work for Dementia Australia. So I think I would probably be looking at some something else to do with publishing, but I haven't made my mind up yet.
Last time we spoke, I said, will you be at the ABC when it turns one hundred hundred fifteen? Probably one hundred and fifty is not realistic, but one hundred see, possibly might extend your term. Another couple of times, do you said that you might write a book.
I haven't made my mind up because I just can't because I'm so busy finalizing. Well, I'm almost running out of things to do, but I have been really busy finalizing everything. We had the farewell dinners the other night, which was lovely, and I just feel I need to take a breath. So I'm just going to take a breath and see what else happens. I've got five grandchildren now, and I quite like spending time with them. The girls discovered that they like shopping as much as Grandma does.
And it's an evil trio really when we go out.
Oh, I can imagine. Yes, that's a very you know, good to be enlisting. I think your grandmother in who wouldn't want that? I mean it to your eighty two, which, by your estimate makes you a wicked adolescent. Because when I interviewed the first time in twenty thirteen, because you don't know what I mean, you told me that you would define elderly as ninety plus and so at that time, I think you were seventy and I said, well, where do you fit in seventy And you said, I'm a wicked adolescent.
Well, I think I still am. I'm just slightly older.
I think you'll be a wicked adolescent until forever. Do you think that you'll miss the relentless nature of something like being a chair though? Do you see a massive job like that in your future in terms of all consuming or do you think you'll go back to having what you've had at other points in your career, like what they call now portfolio career, where it is you know this work here, this work there.
I'm just going to do whatever I want to do with no repercussions, And I'm going to have opinions because I'm entitled to have opinions, and to hell with what everybody thinks about them.
No, I love that. Okay, well, we will pick this podcast up again when you are wanting to speak a bit more about your opinions. I don't have to ask you. From an outsider's perspective, it would genuinely seem like you really have achieved everything that you could hope. I don't say that glibly. I really do mean that. I do think a lot of people would think that you've spoken about the interests that you have in health and the
work you'd still like to do there. And I know that you have certainly worked in the are essay of research into dementia for a long time. Now, are there things that you still feel that you want to achieve?
I feel somewhere deep inside of me that there's something else waiting for me, and I don't know what it is, but I often feel like that. I often feel like that when I'm in this situation, you sort of think, well, I've done a lot. I mean, I can see I've done a lot, and I've loved it all. But somewhere deep inside of me. I think there's something else. Whether it's going to be as big as chairing there, I don't think it would be. I don't think it would
be something like chairing an organization like the ABC. I think that's once in a lifetime opportunity. It's a mighty organization and I'm really honored to have had the chance to do to be the chair. But I think there's something. I'll let you know when I find it.
Please do and please come back on something to talk about, because I think you've been very forthcoming, and I always feel when I'm sitting opposite Eierbchros that there's plenty of opinions. So I cannot wait to hear iter unfiltered, when you can just say whatever it is that you like. Yes, I hope you enjoyed that epis of the summer series
or something to talk about. Make sure you're following us if you're not already, because we'll be revisiting some of your favorite episodes of the past year until we're back with a brand new episode on January twelfth.