Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About, the Stella Podcast. I'm Sarah Lamarquin, to your host, and every week I sit down with some of the biggest names in the country, because when Australia's celebrities are ready to talk, they come to Something to Talk about. It's been three years since Emma Watkins left the Wiggles, an announcement that left children everywhere and their parents heartbroken, given Emma had made history in becoming the first female Wiggle back in twenty thirteen.
But during her time touring the world as the Yellow Wiggle, Emma was also completing a PhD exploring creative ways of using sign language in children's dance and film. An idea was brewing, and even though she was worried about disappointing her young fans, she knew she had to back herself, and back herself she did. She's gone on to create
a huge, hugually popular alter ego Emma and Memma. She's running a business alongside her husband of two years, Oliver, and she's the new host of a primetime television series soon to be seen on the ABC. And Emma joins me in the studio today to talk about well all of it. Emma Watkins, welcome to Stella and something.
To talk about. Thank you so much for having me. It's nice to see you.
It's loved to see you again. You have featured in Stella many times over the years. You said to Stella back in twenty nineteen, so five years ago, oh wow, I didn't think there would be such a phenomenon about being a girl Wiggle. I had a lot of backlash from original fans and teenagers who didn't want to let go of the fact that the Wiggles were all boys, and I knew where they were coming from. But for the children coming through now, this was obviously when you
were still in the Wiggles, where the original Wiggles. I really wanted to ask you, Emma, about the first I know you've spoken about this before, of course, at the time when you became the first this quote Instella, when you were in the middle of it, when you decided to leave the Wiggles, and then of course speaking now, you know a few years later, where you're very much in a whole new chapter of your career. There wouldn't have been a Caterina, there wouldn't be a s High
and Evie a la Chia without Emma Wiggle. Apparently half of the Wiggles now female, which is a huge change in the course of a decade. Tell me how that sits if you being the first, I just think it's wonderful. And I would have loved to have had the Spice Girls with me when I was there when I started. I know, I know.
So I think it's actually lovely that people are embracing that change. And again now we can see that children enjoy their own version of The Wiggles and any show for that matter, and I guess it's a testament to the Wiggles story and legacy and music that keeps driving that for generations to come. So I feel very privileged to have been part of it. And again, I still I have to step back because I still don't know how it happened to me, because it wasn't something that
I auditioned for. So I was picked because I was there already dancing for the group. And so I still feel very lucky.
But well, I was about to say, but you weren't just lucky. I might refer to We had a recent episode with Tim mentioned where we spoke with Tim a lot about luck because he is like, you know that whole lucky's a big factor. So it is, and it's really important to acknowledge that luck in the good things
and the bad things. So now I'm going to break my own rule and not contradict what I said, but I just think I wanted to say, without sounding like a cheerleader, that I would argue, as an observer of that cultural moment, that it happened and you became the first wiggle. But then the reaction to that was so overwhelmingly obvious that the fans were so ready for that moment that that's what set the way.
I appreciate it, And it is something that you're right. I mean, obviously there was a part of it that was being in the right place at the right time and a beautiful group of people, and we just all happened to be there on the tour and working together,
and so it obviously made sense. But certainly to get through those early years, you know, there's a lot of hard work and deep reflection on what the perception was for the group, and I think being able to reflect and step out and look and yeah, now when I look back, you think about all the choices that you made and what you thought was right at the time, and you know, it's just incredible to actually be able to look back on that now fifteen years ago.
And what was so great was at the positive, overwhelming reaction from the audience globally, of course, because we all know that this entertainment in Australia, in children's entertainment, I mean, it's a massive global export, so it's not only domestic audiences. But as you were alluding to Istella, there was that little backlash at the start, because any first does also bring with it well why or you know, now we
would say, oh, it's all gone woke. I mean, I don't think that we were using the word woke when you became the first Wiggle in twenty thirteen, but whatever the equivalent was back then, so obviously it did have to also deal with a little bit of naysayism pressure. How did you cope with that at the time and what are your memories of that when you look back.
Oh, that's a good question too. I feel that mostly I just didn't want to disappoint people, and we were very clear in our intention. We knew and you know, even from the Wiggles as a whole, as a company as a business. You know, it was important that we weren't going to be karaoke wiggles. You know, we weren't just going to step in place of you know, the ones before us, and you know those legends. Why would
we even try and attempt to copy that. And so when you're paving your own way and you know you're doing things because of your experience and you're bringing your skills and your passion, that really then changed everything. And then I think people started to relax. They knew that we weren't going to take over their childhood memory.
So true, then, of course you left in twenty twenty one, big decision. You just said then, Emmy, you didn't want to let anyone down. You didn't want to disappoint anyone. You were not only grappling with a huge decision there in terms of what it would mean for you in your career, your identity, your income. You were also i know, really conscious of the impact that it would have on your fans because of the importance that you know that of being a role model and being a presence in
their life. That's a lot to take on. Tell me about what you learn about yourself backing yourself in that decision and coming out the other side of it, I.
Feel that I now believe that I must have been fairly brave. But I don't know where that point was when I was ready to take that step, but I guess again, the intention was that through the last couple of years, I was parallel studying my PhD. So during that research it kind of opened my mind up to
so many other things that I'd love to try. And potentially I'm well placed to be able to do this kind of work because of my love of dance and sign language, and that's essentially what my PhD was about, and I thought this is probably the time to do it. And in the pandemic, we weren't touring, and I just thought that maybe I wouldn't disappoint as many children. Even though I had left during that time, I still disappointed children. So I am sorry to all the children at the time.
And it is amazing though now when I meet families and they might be especially with the children that might be a little bit older five or six, the parents will most likely say, we actually had a ticket to come and watch you in twenty one, and the pandemic happened, and so we were refunded, and then we were booked to see the next one, and then you weren't there. So now we're coming to watch you because this is our first time that we've been able to see you live.
And that's a beautiful story too, and that story is still playing out.
I mean, it is a beautiful story. And I'm sure a lot of people listening to you speak would have a lot of thoughts, myself included, which is, first of all, you think, oh, but you can't take all of that off you, oh you you, well, you can't go. But
also for you making that decision you have to. But also it's that bravery is also role modeling something really powerful, even if people don't realize it at the time, because they're also seeing that you can go on and do other things which I want to ask you about and you have, and isn't that an amazing lesson to learn? Even if you are four or five and you don't quite understand that's what you're seeing, they will then look back and go wow, like that's and of course the
same for the parents. So I do think bravery is the word, and I think that's also a really important thing to model.
Well, I hope so I mean I wouldn't have thought it at the time, as in I didn't feel confident or brave at the time, but I knew that there was something inside and I really wanted to finish the research, and because we weren't touring, I had more time to do the research. So it was kind of coming to a point where, chatting with my supervisor, we felt that the research was important because then it would pave the way for new processes and pathways for children's entertainment from
this point on. And so that's kind of where I thought, Okay, I probably need to make that decision now, and that's when I did.
And so it might not have even happened without the pandemic, I know, strange sliding doors moment exactly.
And I mean for me, you know, lots of people ask me, well, why sign language and why were you interested in? Why?
Why?
Why? And you know, I grew up with deaf friends, so sign language was always a part of my network. And unfortunately, because I was so busy during my time touring, I never got to do my Osland certificates because I
wasn't present in class. But during the pandemic they changed the course to be online, So that also changed the trajectory of my study, and so I ended up doing my Osland certificates during COVID when we're at home, you know, trying to keep up with all of the things that we needed to you with the Wiggles, but also learning OSLENE on the side, and yeah, that journey has taken a whole pathway in itself.
I wanted to ask you a little bit about the PhD. First of all, from a time management perspective. I mean, you started this while you were touring with the Wiggles and that's a crazy schedule. And then a PhD is a massive undertaking. And congratulations because so you officially now doctor m Watkins. I've been a bit casual with you. I'm saying, am I doctors congratulation? What an achievement.
Thank you. And I think again, I think the PhD is a is a it's a big undertaking, but it is also once you've reached that point, you're like, Okay, that's now a milestone for then what we can do beyond this and how does that inform what we make from this point on? And again I think everything feeds
into each other. But being able to perform and being able to be through the pain endemic and learning Osland then led us to be able to in this particular series in Teenage Boss, actually take on a family that us Osland as their primary language, and we were able to do that whole episode in Osland as in myself conversing directly with the teen and their family members in their primary language, which meant that it just felt more connected and that I could have that conversation myself instead
of through somebody else. Yes, and let's talk about your new TV show on the ABC. It's called Teenage Boss Next Level and it's teaching teenagers about money. We're obviously in a cost of living crisis in Australia right now, so probably even more appropriate time than ever for something like this. Actually, when the show came about, I did actually think, in the context of the world, this is fantastic,
not just for teenagers but for everyone. And filming across many months and actually meeting ten different families in Adelaide, so much of what we were sharing together I was actually learning for myself and for the parents within that family network. So I feel like this show is really going to reach so many people on so many different levels.
Because the premise of the show is that a teenager assumes responsibility for their family's budget for an entire month. So it's a pretty big ask. So a little further to what you just said that it's a learning experience for everyone, for the teenagers, for their parents, maybe older siblings if there's older siblings in their twenties living at home, for you as the host, and then of course for us at home as the audience. I'd like to unpack
that a little bit. I imagine there would be a little bit of a generational trope for some people that teenagers aren't necessarily going to have the understanding of how to budget. They are yet to understand the value of money, unlike their parents or a lot of adults that haven't necessarily had to work really hard to earn a living. We might think that they're a little more susceptible to impulse buying. I've got to say, I'm a few decades on from being a teenager, and I could learn a
lot from teenagers. What about you, what did you think about that generational breakdown?
Well, I've never seen parents look so scared, and there was a lot of anxiety about the parents handing over that responsibility. Yeah, and I think actually that tension between the parents and the teenagers was quite interesting because either the parents then relaxed because they knew that the teenager had it all under their control, or that tension continued out to play through the month. But really most of the teenagers hadn't taken on any of that kind of responsibility.
Some of the teens had extra part time jobs, but some of that responsibility of having a job and actually earning money to bring into the budget was something that became quite high stakes. Then they needed to have that extra revenue to be able to survive for that month.
And when the responsibility was for them to be in charge of the whole family instead of just themselves or just their own pocket money, then that meant that the responsibility did fall on them to take care of their family, including their siblings, which ended up mostly being younger siblings.
Raising the age that's a teenager, well, the budget becomes high. You have to raise more revenue, and you can work as well because they're old enough to be getting jobs.
But the stakes are potentially a little bit higher. I don't know if you agree this obviously in my opinion, but there can be a little bit of acute factor to the experiment when it's a younger child, because it's a bit more of a learning experience, which of course this is, but this is a bit more real world And I think, going back to the generational trope, teenagers tend to get a bit of a hard rap always have, I think, don't they?
And I think actually meeting the ten teenage you know and their siblings, I was quite taken aback by their confidence and independence, not just with the challenge but in their own lives. I mean, most of them actually felt that they were confident to do the challenge, which was great. It's nice to see that they felt that they could approach this challenge in a way that they could be responsible for. But I was quite impressed.
Do you think that there would be quite tangible takeaways that adults, whether it's the parents, quite literally, whose budget is at stake? Are we going to make the mortgage this week? Are we're going to be able to pay the rent? From someone watching at home that you might think I've seen how to manage budget, how to tackle finances through the lens of somebody coming at it with a whole new perspective.
I think the great template of the show to actually provided the teenagers with a really easy spreadsheet, and I think being able to have a look at the spreadsheet as an overview for the month was particularly helpful for the teenos and myself and saying myself as in I felt like I was a viewer as well. I felt like I was part of the audience watching the teenagers over the period of the month actually facing the challenge. But I think interestingly, when they get the challenge, the teenagers,
they instantly worry about things like the mortgage. But the great part of the show is that it's divided into fixed costs and then variable costs. So actually talking through the fixed costs which they don't even get to touch, like mortgage, school fees, that actually also alleviated tension for the teens. Yes, so they actually don't need to focus
on those ones. But what they can do, and then what gives them a sense of independence is knowing what are the variable costs like gas, water, leisure, entertainment, food, groceries. When they realized that they were in control of that, you could see their perception switch and almost a bit of their character started to change because they realized that they were genuinely the boss Emma.
For you, what is your relationship with money? You know, financial advisors as opposed to financial planners and people that more work as financial counselors and help people assess their relationship with money beyond the dollars and cents and the bank balance. But actually how we all think about it? They say everyone's got a money story. Is it something
that you are interested in yourself? Have you been sensible with money or is it something that you have re evaluated your own relationship with it as you've progressed throughout your career and your life.
I think that's a great question, and I think for me, my dad was a chartered accountant, So I think doing this show actually made me reflect on my relationship with my dad and thinking, wow, he put up with so much and I couldn't imagine my parents allowing me to do this challenge because I don't know if I would
have been that responsible as a teenager. But I feel that, you know, through Dad, I've learned so much, but I still don't have that expertise in financial advising, and so my role in this show was definitely to be a support for the teen and actually be with them more at their level and actually work through some of the challenges that weren't always necessarily financial, but it might have been emotional or psychological pressures that if they took that
money away from this person, or that pocket money from their sibling, what would that affect? And that was I think that stemmed really beautiful conversations about how they cared for their family.
Absolutely, I wanted to ask Emma a little bit about working with the teenagers in the series, going back here to your profile, of course, you have first joined the Wiggles as a backup dancer and understudy in twenty ten,
then you became a full time Wiggle in twenty thirteen. Obviously, want to ask a lit bit more about that in a moment, but just in terms of your timeline concurrent with the teenagers in the show, they would have been in the absolute heart of the demographic, you know, in those years when they would have been according to my calculations, I'm a journalist, so mass is not my strong point, but roughly between four and six, which is obviously very
much in the core of part of the core Wiggle's demographic. How was it when they first met you? How many starstruck teenagers did you meet and how did your relationship evolve with them? From that initial oh my gosh, it's Emma mat it's Emma Wiggle through to Emma Watkins, the person that is alongside them for this experiment.
I think that's probably one of the most interesting parts of the show, and I'm waiting to see what that looks like when it's edited, But certainly for myself, I found a lot of hilarious and shocked responses at the front door, not just from the teenagers, but definitely from the siblings and one of the families. One of the siblings she was very young, she was about five or six, and so she was very much into Emma Memma, So when I came to the door, she was like, where's
your costume? Why is the show not starting right now? That definitely the nostalgic effect, I guess of me rocking up to the front door of these teenagers house was not just funny for them, but it was funny for
me to see their reaction. And yes, our relationship did change over the month, because then even though I was trying to be supportive, we still had to be firm so that they understood the responsibility of the challenge, and I guess in a way some of the teenagers didn't want to disappoint me, and I really wanted them to succeed. So it was a fine balancing act of trying to be positive about their choices, but also trying to remind them of what that might mean for their family, and.
Coming up what married life is like for Emma and her husband Oliver. Two years on, the character of Emma and Memma is very much incorporates these things that we've just spoken about Emma. I mean, it's a character that's very much dedicated to promoting inclusive entertainment for children and by extension, their families and the wider community. And of course Emma loves to dance, and you, yourself, Emma Watkins,
are classically trained dancing. You've studied ballet, of course, which is a huge component of Emma Memma contemporary hip hop, Irish dancing. When did this character and what you might like to do start to take shape.
Hm, that's a good question too. I feel like through the PhD, we needed a vehicle to be able to not test some of the findings, but presents and see what the reaction was. And Emma Memmer kind of came out of that, and someone actually said to me, I feel like Emma members an extension of yourself. It is very you, Emma, and I think now I feel like Emma Memor is so much a part of me, and
it really does combine everything that I truly love. And being able to include sign language along the way is important because most of my friend circle I would do things in the past and then they would ask me, or what was that interview about? It didn't have captions or you weren't signing it, so I didn't know what that was about, and that always plays on my mind.
And so now I really don't do any opportunities without some accessibility incorporated and making sure that, yeah, if my friend Elvin, who's profoundly deaf, wants to be part of this interview or wants to read this particular article, can he access it? And I think about that daily.
Because one of the things I did want to ask you was how much of you is in the characters that you have portrayed? Obviously Emma Memo and then also before that, Emma Wiggle. But as your friends already observed, there's a lot of you in em A Memma, And I imagine then that will continue to evolve because as you're saying, you obviously, even as you were saying earlier you parents come up at the end of the show
and say something, you're really taking that on board. I would imagine you see potentially this work and this character just continuing to evolve as you're seeing where could we go next, what needs necessarily aren't being met, What does the audience increasingly want from a pretty groundbreaking children's entertainer.
I mean exactly, And I feel that the best thing about doing emm a Memo as well is that our team is so tiny that we are able to reflect on what we are doing in our content or live shows and change it very quickly if needed. And that
feedback comes directly from the audience. So when I'm on stage and my husband who's our audio engineer, and he's at the back of the room, between he and I, we can kind of filter all the feedback because I see it from the front, and then he's hearing all the comments from the back and people genuinely, I don't know, it just feels like it's more more definitely with emm Amemma, they will go directly up to Ollie and give their feedback for the show, and that is just priceless because
it actually then changes the way we do the show after the next hour. And those kinds of interactions have felt so genuine and we have loved having so much connection with our audience now, and that's why I think Emma Mema has evolved and grown so quickly over the last twelve months.
A lot of children's entertainers carry that expectation is sometimes self impost sometimes it's actually a real world because the persona that they have is actually quite far removed from who they really are. And I don't mean that as a criticism, by the way. I mean that's fine, like you might go and play a certain character and nothing
like that in real life. But as we're talking before with fan interactions, it's a unique, I think expectation when you are dealing in the really important and vital world of children's entertainment, because, unlike other fan interactions, we forgive and in fact expect that children are going to distinguish
between the public persona and the real person. For you, as an outside observer, it seems like that disconnect probably might not even really exist, especially given what you've just talked about with Emma member and the close modeling, But have there been times where you've thought, if you are still out in public, do you have to watch yourself knowing that you know they've probably use a child watching and that you think, Okay, I just have to do
something that I might necessarily be doing to carry yourself in a different way. You don't seem like somebody like me that would be dropping things, maybe letting all like a whole spring of expleet tears out, So you don't seem like somebody that would necessarily swear. But how does that expectation sit on you, if at all?
I mean, I guess what you mentioned before, it doesn't really come into play in a weird way. But I think that's what is even more relaxing about Emmamemma, because it is more like my personality, and now that we're starting to experiment with comedic elements and having a bit more of a play and being more fun, that's probably
how I am more so at home. So I feel that the expectation, of course is always for children and children first and foremost, But when I am out and about, it's mostly parents, and I get stopped by parents and grandparents and I and uncles and you know, being at the airport last night, I almost talked to the entire plane.
But it could be exhausting, doesn't it.
It is, but again, it's just a really great way of getting insight to the audience and knowing what people are connecting with. Are they coming to the show? Did they listen to the latest music? Did they see that particular article. People are so in tune, and more so now because the world's more connected. Somebody said to me this morning, oh, you're doing a new show, and I was like, wow, that's really good. Yes, teenage boss like, oh yeah, the teenagers. Are they dancing? No, they're not
dancing necessarily, but you'll like the show. So it is important to remember that people are very perceptive and they have their own story and connection to Emma and being a part of family's households on broadcast TV for fifteen years is an important reminder. And that's something that I take really seriously.
Got to ask you if any of the teenagers dance, So I'm glad to somebody.
They ask you that, well, they yeah, exactly, and that they won't be disappointed because two of the teenagers actually seriously love dancing. One loves Irish dancing and one loves ballet. Oh my gosh, so for me, okay, and this is why again leaving, you know, my amazing time with the Wiggles and then moving into m member. But now we just have so much more freedom to be able to try all these new projects. And I would never have
had the opportunity to do Teenage Boss before. And it's just opened me up to so many different stories and adventures and people, and I feel truly invested and connected with the families we filmed.
With a couple of questions before we finished up. You mentioned your husband, Ollie Oliver, who you married two years ago and you met when he was a backup musician in the Wiggles. And as you say, you've now working together and touring. How is that you know? Not a particularly original question, but probably because I imagine it is something everyone wants to know when you're working with your partner and you're traveling and touring and there he's there
getting this great audience feedback. I mean, that's really valuable. As you say, tell me a little bit about all of that, because I know you're quite private. But two years into married life.
It's just the best. But actually, interestingly, filming Teenage Boss was the only time that we weren't together, so we actually do work together on everything and really having our own business. Now. We do seventy percent on Emma Memma, and then thirty percent are other amazing projects like Teenage Boss. But also we tend to do a lot of work with deaf professionals, actually working together to create more awareness around deaf awareness and deaf community, and that is so
much supported by Ollie. Even though his experience is incredibly in musical adventures, He's been such an integral part of the business. And yeah, we're so lucky to work together, to be honest, And so I would then go home and be like, this is what we filmed with Teenage Boss. You have to wait till you see it. So he's excited to see the series as well.
So maybe the question more was how was it not worth? Why not father? For a period of time.
It was weird I had to keep updating him, but I knew that he would be particularly inspired by the teenagers as well. I was talking about a lot of their confidence and just self assurance and independence and yet trying to reflect that on my own experience.
You are only thirty four.
Oh that's very nice. It's nearly my birthday.
So are we going to round up to thirty fo go for it. I mean, that's still pretty I've got to tell you. But you have achieved an awful lot in that time, and especially I think because you have been visible for really since quite a young age. So that's the other thing is that often we are discovering people at this age, especially now you know where people
are starting new careers in their thirties. But you're somebody that was so young when you were first catapulted into the spotlight and in a really big way under a big yellow spotlight. What do you think any with this new TV show? You clearly, as we've talked about with MMMA, constantly evolving and growing and seeing new opportunities, and you and your husband working on different projects. Do you have a little bit of a crystal ball what the next chapter might be in the next ten twenty years.
I wish I could be really planned, but to be honest, the opportunities that come to us I could never have dreamt of, and I didn't know I would do Teenage Boss and things like Lego Masters and the Amazing Race. I never would have imagined that I'd ever have the opportunity to do them, or that there would be any interest for me to do those kinds of things. And so we kind of hop from one thing to the
next because we take the opportunity where it happens. But it does feel like the best is yet to come. It feels like we're at the start of a whole new chapter. And actually, talking with an amazing filmmaker in Victoria yesterday, he mentioned that it really is about looking at all the different ways being an artist, all the different platforms that you might want to bring your experience to or share your story, and how can you best
use those platforms to share something that's uniquely you. And I was like, that's a great way to look at it, because sometimes there is no particular plan, and we know with such an ever changing world, I don't know what's going to happen. But I am constantly surprised by the things that come our way and the way that we've been able to use those opportunities to grow and evolve as people.
To Emma Wilkins, thank you so much for coming into the studio today. It's been really lovely to speak to you, and the new show sounds really interesting and could be a social experiment. I think that takes off either on Their Siblings Revenge season two or for those of us watching at home doing our own little mini experiments.
Can't wait for you to meet all of the amazing teenagers we met.
Emma Watkins. Thank you so much for coming into the studio today, and you can see Emma on Teenage Boss Next Level, airing on the ABC from Saturday, twelfth of October, and we'll have a link in our show notes. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you're following us. Hit that follow button because we'll be back with another exclusive guest on Stella's Something to Talk About next week