Sabrina, welcome. What's up, Mark? It's so good to have you here. I'm. So excited. I I'm excited too because so we've had the podcast for about a year. We've done maybe like half a dozen episodes on relationships dating had had dating experts on and Drew's still single. I don't know what's wrong with him. It's a. Problem. I'm hoping you can tell me by the end of our problem at this. Point. Great, so in the next 30. We're supposed to be giving advice that works.
And come on, Drew. Oh, Drew, I've so many questions. It's the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast with your host Mark Manson. Where am I supposed to go? He's he's speechless. He's actually speechless. This would be fun if I'm like, OK, Drew, let's go. So tell me mom and dad, right? Like we'd all start. So let's not go there. How about we talk about you? How did you get into this whole crazy world of dating, online dating, social media? What was your story behind all that?
So my story is a little bit like not traditional. Like I went to, I moved to New York when I was 19 to go to acting school and I was like, I wasn't very good at it. And then went to fashion, worked in fashion for like 8-9 years and just fucking hated it. Like truth be told. And in 2017, my mom went to the doctor with a headache and then she had six brain aneurysms and they gave her like no chance of survival. And she came out OK.
And it was like a true miracle. And so that was when I started therapy and started to understand like, holy shit, your mindset, even though you're given all of the terrible and negative could actually really be used for your positive because you can really get through things if depending on where you shift. Don't get me wrong, I still didn't get it at this time. I just was starting to
understand that. And then Fast forward, I was working, I started my clothing company software and was doing things. And then 2022, I was supposed to be on Shark Tank. I am single in LA and it was at that moment where I started to realize like my anxiety was just, it was getting worse. It wasn't really getting any better. And all of these things that we were ingesting were just constant like click bait or do this to get this or manipulation.
Like there was no accountability, there was no self-awareness. And I was ingesting it. And so I was dating and doing and I was on set for Shark Tank and I got sent home after 12 hours and I my life kind of like came crashing and I was like, I've got nothing. I don't know what I'm going to do. And a friend of mine was like, hey, man, you give really good dating advice. Like you're always on podcasts.
I think you should try. And so of course, I had my own limiting beliefs being like, no one cares about me. And I was just like, you know what, what do I have to lose? So I had like my Miley Cyrus Hannah Montana moment. I was like, TikTok will be 1 persona and then Instagram is like the professional and then the TikTok blew up. I started my podcast January 2023 and was like, let's let me give people what I've received from therapy and different modalities that actually moves the needle.
And then we'll lead you to the results of like what it is that you want, but it starts and ends with you. And so I think that's really what motivated me to start this. And then it continued on by just putting out content and then organically seeing millions of people resonate with it.
And I think at this point, like, that's why, Mark, I love your content so much, because I think it's important that we cut through the bullshit and actually like give the advice that people need, not what they want to hear. Yeah. What it what has been the biggest surprise? Because I imagine after after your audience kind of blew up and things took off, you got deluged with questions, problems, life stories. Like what has been the biggest surprise to you of what you hear
from people? I think the biggest surprise is how there's so many in my brain is like in six different ways. But I think what comes to mind first is how so many people really don't understand that. Like, they have so much more power and agency than they give themselves credit for. And if we really just understood like, hey, man, you're just dysregulated. Like that's why you feel like you're going to die. That's why you feel all of this.
But I think so many people really are stuck in a place and without really understanding, like, how do you tap into that? I'm seeing so much power just given away every single day of like, I'll get these emails of like pages of how this person's just the worst human being. Like, there is nothing redeeming. But at the end it's like, but I still love them, what do I do? And so I think it's.
You know, it's God knows. So I think that's the shock for me is how little people understand, like realize that you have so much power within you. If you actually fucking take control and ownership of you and how you present yourself to people, it will change the way you date and have experiences. Yeah. Well, OK, let's that's a perfect spot then for the fuck of the week, we have this segment called the Fuck of the week. What are we giving a fuck about? What are we not giving a fuck
about? And I want to dive right into it with you with attachment styles, which is right right along that lane. How much of A fuck should we give about our attachment style going into this there? There's kind of been a introduction of that language into the kind of a popular culture. And I think a lot of people are aware of it, but I think a lot of people only have a surface level understanding of it. And sometimes we get, I know for me anyway, I'm like, oh, I'm
avoidant. And then it became a self fulfilling prophecy. How much of A fuck should we really give about our attachment styles? What do you think? I think if we're looking like a one to 100, right, if I would say like 30% and I know that people would be like what Elizabeth, you talk about this, It's like, yeah, attachment styles are so you understand yourself. Attachment styles are so that you can be like, oh cool, I'm not crazy.
Like when I found out about anxious attachment, I was like, oh, there's a name for it, OK, that this is and it's a blueprint for me to be able to heal right and go, OK, where did I learn this from? Oh, what's the behaviour of someone that's anxious? Like, got it. This is how that navigates when I met my partner who's more avoidant. It's not about I'm diagnosing you. You're the worst person in the
world. It's OK. I understand that how I might behave would interact and you'll get triggered and things like that. I think we give way too many fucks on people like diagnosing others of like my avoidant, my narcissist. And it's like, whoa, whoa, you know so much about them that they're an avoidant or a narcissist, but yet we're still here. Attachment styles. I think there's been a misconception.
I think a lot of people confuse like an avoidant attachment style with like avoidant personality disorder, right? 2 completely different things. Avoidant, like any attachment style is really just how did you connect with your caregivers? And that's how, how did you attune right? Learn the attunement. Somebody's secure, right? For anybody who's maybe not sure, we've got four major ones. Yeah, let's do. That yeah, right. You know, for argument's sake, there's like 4 biggies.
There's the secure and then there's the three insecure. So the secure attached person comes from a home where they were taught that like love is safe, love is something that you can give and receive. They have an understanding of independence and interdependence, right? So it's like you're not afraid of conversations. You know that it's important to speak up because you were raised in a home where your feelings mattered, your thoughts
mattered. That's the pinnacle We all want to get to, well, enjoy climbing the mountain. Then we go to the insecure attachment styles and we've got three major ones. Of course, there's amalgamations, but we've got the avoidant, we've got the anxious, and we have the disorganized. The avoidant attachment is when triggered, right? This isn't that like this person just avoids conversation when triggered, which it triggers acute to your nervous system that you're in danger.
Something happens that to someone else might not be a big deal. You go inwards, right? To people that are avoidant, the messaging early on was like, emotions aren't safe. You could be potentially like ridiculed or judged for having emotions. Maybe you had emotionally unavailable parents, so there was a discomfort with someone else's emotions and expressing your own. Then the flip side of it, we go to the anxious right? I'm hi, nice to meet you. Stand up and be counted. Yeah, yeah.
So the poster child of it and essentially what that means, it's like inconsistency, right? I had a a narcissistic father and a people pleasing mother. I had a father that was always in and out. So what did I learn? Some love is not safe. I have to scream and yell for it. I have to earn it right? And so the anxious attacher is so uncomfortable in their own body. I need you to tell me I'm going to be OK. So it's a lot of codependency in that regard. Then the disorganizes like that
amalgamation. You've ever seen someone that's a super push pill. One minute they're amazing and then the next you're like, I feel like I don't know who you are. That's the disorganized. They want love so they'll come closer and then they're terrified of the rejection of the intimacy and they pull away. The reason it's important that we understand where these manifest is because people will be like, Drew, you're an avoidant. And it's like, I'm sorry, how
did you know that about me? I haven't been triggered with you versus, hey, you just don't share anything. It's like, well, maybe that person's just an asshole, right? Like they don't have to be any attachment style. I've been called that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're not mutually exclusive, correct? But yeah, like, moral of the story is like, I think attachment styles are important so you understand yourself and you understand how your triggers manifest in other people.
And also so that we have some self-awareness of like, hey, if I'm super anxious and I might want to text a lot, Mark, you and I are dating pathetically. You're not right. You're like, hey, I'm, I'm significantly more secure. I'm not going to use this to manipulate you when I'm going to use this as is, hey, this is my own shit. Here's what I can learn about myself and how we can actually have a successful relationship. Yeah, it's interesting to see.
I think I first wrote about attachment theory like 2012, maybe 2013, but this has happened with a number of psychological concepts over the years, not just attachment theory, but I think attachment theory is kind of the most obvious one that I've seen. The way TikTok and Instagram culture have taken what is really solid theories with a, a bedrock of research and then like twisted them into these status games and, and coping mechanisms of like, you know,
some guy doesn't call you back. So it's like, oh, well, he's avoided and you're actually just really coping. Like it's not, you don't actually know anything about this person, but it, it, it's become this weird, I don't even know what the word is for it, but you, you see with all sorts of mental health concepts that it's just become this like weird signalling game on social media. And, and I actually think it, it's toxified a lot of these concepts in a weird way.
Like I, I think in in a certain way it's working against people at this point. 100% I couldn't agree more. And it's interesting. It's funny that we talk about, Oh, well, if someone says like, oh, they're avoidant and you're like talk, that's cliche anxious behavior, right? Diagnosing other people, making external. I'm so uncomfortable with myself.
So I'm going to analyze you because if I analyze you, I don't have to worry about me. I don't have to think about what's coming up. Anxious people are avoidant and avoidant people are anxious. And so it's that I think what we've had is like TikTok university has now so many people have graduated that think they understand these really nuanced concepts and they've mowed it into like a bumper sticker, right? That's what my partner always
says. Like if he can fit into 140 characters or less, if he wanted to, he would if they like you. And it's like, I'm sorry. So everything is just chalked up to that one statement. All humans, almost 9 billion of us are the same. Makes it a lot less fun if we start to think of it that way. So I think to your point, it's like narcissism. People will say, oh, he's a narcissist. It's like, no, that dude just didn't like you. And narcissist is a very
different thing. But I think again, when we get into that, like I want to heal other people, I want to diagnose other people. And when we try to diagnose other people, what we end up doing is self abandoning. And I think what gets lost too is that you can actually be in an insecure relationship and it can still work out like you can.
That's a big one, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you, you actually, I mean, this was a huge part of attachment theory, Is that actually the primary way you heal, the way you learn to regulate yourself is within a relationship, is by like having that secure boundary with somebody so that every time you freak out and you get triggered, nothing horrible happens. Yeah. And yet so much of the advice is, oh, stay away from avoidance or stay away from the edge or whatever. So much of the advice is that
it's like, well. Learn, work with, wait for the most perfectly secure person on earth who doesn't exist by exactly no. Or you'll see the there's this one guy and I'm not going to name names even though I want to. He drives me insane, his content because it was like, it's all this stuff. Look, I'm going to teach you how he's like a secure man. It's going to heal your anxious attachment. And I'm like, I'm going to pull my fucking hair out.
Like that's not how it works. I'm I have had my own anxiety and my partner has his avoidance. We are both. It's called earn secure. You can absolutely earn your security in our relationship. I don't worry about any of those things in life. Am I anxious? Yeah, I'm still is so hard, but there's still an element of understanding like you can heal through that and two insecure people can heal. But the key here is like, what are you?
Are you doing the work? Are you actually trying to implement and grow and change your mindset and learn new things? Or is it well, every time I get triggered, the person walks out and you're like, OK, well, we're not making progress. So I think if two people are very committed to actually progressing a relationship doesn't need to start off being the most secure people.
But like, to your point, if I'll give you an example, when I first started dating my partner, my smart ass was like, he's not texting me enough. And like I was like this poor guy. Like he just, he was very clear from the beginning, like, I want to build a connection with you, not on the phone. And after like maybe six or seven dates, I text him saying like, Hey, being all cute, saying, you know, I'd love like a little bit more texting in between our dates to feel more connected to you.
And he went came right with a boundary of like, Hey, great to hear from you. Going to be honest. And it was just like, he's like, I don't connect via the phone. I work 9 hours on a screen all day. The last thing I want there's a mini screen in my hand while I'm connecting with my friends and family and my dog. If that doesn't work for you, completely understand. If not, I'd love to take you out to dinner and get to know you in person. Yeah. What a thought. That was wow.
I mean, that's just so. It's so simple though, and people, we complicate it way too goddamn much. Yeah, and it's like and, and but then that's that moment where I could have chosen, fuck this guy, he's the void. And instead I was like, no, Sabrina, challenge yourself, you can heal. And then I never brought the texting up and our, our relationship progressed to like, well, here we are two years later.
Because I think what we see in the beginning is a lot of these triggers, like here we go into the mental state. The mental aspect of it is like you go from the prefrontal cortex into the amygdala and we go into that limbic part of our brain. And you're operating at a old operating system from when you're 6. It's not going to be a shock that every little thing is going to cause you to say, I can't do this.
I want to go away because there's no goddamn coping mechanisms or tools to push through and say, let me sit in the discomfort And we actually maybe try to grow through this. Because if every single guy you date, it's the same issue, we have to stop blaming everybody else. You hear this all the time. The only thing all of the people you date have in common is you. So if it all fails spectacularly the same way, guess what? That's kind of where I was
talking about. I alluded to it can become a self fulfilling prophecy too. Like when I learned all this stuff, I actually studied this in like Graduate School and everything like that. So I went the other way and went too deep into it and intellectualize it too much. And then I kind of like, Oh yeah, I have these avoidant tendencies I'm avoiding now. I'm going to act that out for the longest time. And it's only been within the last few years that I've realized actually I, I'm pretty
anxious too. I'm a little bit more disorganized than I thought I was. And then I also realized that there's actually some kind of redeeming qualities about my avoidance and my anxiety that don't have to necessarily be, you know, thrown out. You don't got to throw the baby out with the bathwater necessarily. And so, yeah, I don't know, I, I kind of came to this realization that I don't have to just be avoidant all the time, right? You know, it's OK that I'm, I
can be anxious. And it's like you just just expressing that to somebody and being very open and honest upfront about it has been huge for me anyway, yeah. Total game charger. Of course it's validating, right? Yeah. I think it's like my I remember once when I first started dating my partner, I said I'm anxious and he looked at me and he goes, you have anxiety. We don't need to self identify. And I was like, good call. You're right.
I don't need to self identify. I'm not an anxious person. I have anxiety. It's a part of me like the thousand other fucking parts of me that exist. And for you with the avoidance as well, it's like intellectualizing wouldn't be a shock, right? The avoidance, the avoidant people want to avoid the emotions. So let me intellectualize and if I can just cognitively understand this, but the
emotions, I don't need them. But then finding a pendulum that doesn't swing severely could even start with saying, sure, this might make me uncomfortable, but I'm learning and growing that acceptance that not belittling not I'm an avoidant. I'm an avoidant. And then our cognitive bias is like, alright to avoid.
Instead, it's like, can we show a little bit of compassion and acceptance first within ourselves and then the people that we're meeting that like, I hate to break it to a lot of people, just because you show up on a date and have a good time doesn't mean everyone felt that. And it's not something that we need to take personally, but we can actually like grow through all of this stuff. A. 100%.
Yeah. How much do you think of the unwillingness to sit with the discomfort and grow through the stuff is just having too many exits, having too many options outside of like, because I don't know, I think back when I used to date, this is pre app. So it's actually fucking hard to meet somebody. Like you actually had to put work in to go meet somebody. You had to suffer through anxiety, risk embarrassing yourself, make a fool of yourself in front of your friends.
So when you met somebody and there was even an inkling of chemistry, there was kind of this like, well, let's just, let's really try to make this work because I don't want to have to go go to the fucking bar and do that again, right? And I, I feel like today it's just so easy to get back on the app and start swiping right that, you know, people don't
feel that that opportunity cost. I think it's a double edged sword because like, to your point, OK, yeah, we used to be able to go out and like meet somebody and it's like, oh, that's a beautiful experience. Like I remember, I remember those days when in New York you're like, I passed my number to someone. And people like look at you like you're shocked. You're like, yeah, yeah. I interacted with a human and I, I, I potentially could have gotten rejected. I didn't like, I got laid
instead. And it's like, that was a good ending. But I think we, we, I think we know like anything. It's like technology, What a beautiful thing, right? Wouldn't have met you guys if it wasn't for technology. Wouldn't have a fucking voice if it wasn't for technology. But then the pendulum swings to where you're like, oh, but technology has brought all of these bad things. And I think, sure, is it easier? Of course it is. I could just get back on the app. I don't have to deal with it.
And I think that now we have this weird like subculture of like judging people for being on the apps of like, oh, I want to meet someone in person. And it's like, here's a fun fact, 68% of couples meet online now. So enjoy, have fun with the other 4. You know, 32% of where you're going to meet these people. But I think what I usually get curious about when I ask like, OK, what don't you like about the apps?
Well, they're uncomfortable and like, I don't like that, you know, these people ghost or they don't answer and I'm like, oh, but you think approaching someone in the wild that you have no idea. At least on a app, I have a baseline of knowing that you want to fuck me, right? You think I'm attractive. We swiped versus in the wild, I'm walking up. I don't know, you could have a wife. You could be, you know, you could do whatever. You could be gay.
It does. It could be 1000 things that doesn't scare, that doesn't make you uncomfortable. And we so I think what gives us this ease of like, well, I don't have to do it. Oh, I could just stay single. I don't have to be bothered. And I think what the apps have really done is like they've triggered us, but then they also allow you to avoid your triggers because in dating, it's messy, it's ugly, it's rejection. You're dealing all of these
things, but you can also grow. And I think, yeah, back in the day when my parents met, it was like, oh, that's nice. Like you could just meet someone through a friend. And it's like then on that same token, we have a lot of divorce because a lot of people got married saying, well, I don't want to keep doing this, so let's just make this work. So I think we also have to look at like, are you being a better buyer? And like, are you actually invested in your health and Wellness and growth?
Because I was on the apps, I started when I was like 18 1/2. Like, they came out when I was there and I was like, what's this? I met my partner on Hinge. I'm a different version of myself than the girl that used to date on those apps. Because you have to learn and grow. Otherwise you'll be 60 and still swiping in the same way. Because is it easier to avoid doing the work? Yeah. Yeah. Just get back on the app.
But how fulfilling is that? Yeah, have you ever 'cause I know you didn't, but have you gone on like your friends apps and stuff to see what it's like? I mean, I've watched my friends do it, and it's funny. There was a period in my life it was fun. My wife and I, we met I think like six months before Tinder came out.
And then while we were dating, all of our friends were getting on Tinder. And it was so cool at the time, like everybody loved it so much that my wife and I, we used to joke we're like, maybe we should break up for a week just like do the tender thing and then we'll get back together. And but it's funny because it Fast forward like 5-6, seven years and, and all of our friends were like, Oh my God, you guys are so lucky. You got out just in time.
You caught the last train out of the station. Running behind ragged. And that's the thing, it's like the casino is always going to win, right? Like the apps are made to there to make money, but that doesn't mean you still can't also like trick the system. It's like any piece of technology. It's more about how you use it. It's not. It's not like going to fix your life for you.
You have to be conscious on how you use it and how you implement it. You guys have completely got ahead of me. Didn't read the homework I tell you. Didn't. Read the assignment. Drew's docket. Because our next segment is brilliant or bullshit. In all to fairness, I didn't really finish college, so that's not. It it's all good. Now. We know why. Thank you. I don't. Know Mark and I partied through college too much too. We forgot a lot. I was drunk.
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As always, brilliant. Or bullshit though, Sabrina, we do. We'll, we'll introduce a, an article or a, a research study or something like that. And we talk about whether that's brilliant or bullshit for you. The brilliant or bullshit is about dating apps. OK, there's been some recent data, yes, you said that 68% of people meet on an app. Now there's some recent data though, that is suggesting that maybe apps have kind of peaked a
little bit, right. So in from 2020, there were about 287,000,000 downloads of dating apps worldwide. That's down to 237,000,000, down 50 million in in just three years. That's in 2023. Number of users has has went down as well. People aren't as willing to pay. The profits are either growing very slowly or going down, and there has been an increase in offline meetups like Eventbrite has seen a 42% increase in attendance and in person single events just in 2023 alone a 42% jump. Awesome.
So now that said, there are some like niche apps and things that are doing pretty well. Field which is like the polyamorous 1 grinder for gay men, that sort of thing. Where do you land on dating apps in general? Brilliant bullshit. You can punt a little bit and say both and tell us why that's OK. I'm going to have to do the lame 1 and go both and I'll tell you why because I met my partner in a nap so I can't poo poo poo it and be like they're fucking terrible.
Except for the one. So I think, I think what's happened though. And so in all 2 fairness, I've been off the apps for two years. And so I've what I've seen, because it's kind of that same thing. What I've seen is like the apps have gone. We've got we've skewed so far from what the intention of it was. Like Bumble came out saying, you know what? We realized women don't want to make the first move. And it's like, yo, that was what your fucking app was. But that's the that's the whole
point of being. Mark, you coming out and being like, I'm not going to curse anymore and you're like, what are you doing here? So it's like, I think that because the apps have, I think a lot of us have lost faith in the apps, right? Like we've first of all, there's so many bots. It's it's like hard to even now navigate who's real and who's not. It's really difficult to even see like, are the people
intentional, right? And I also think that, you know, we have this resurgence like I was like in the last year where everyone's like, I want to be off the apps, I want to meet people. And so Eventbrite's usually my go to. I'll be like, great, go on Eventbrite, find things like when I'm going to tell I had to like a high club. I went to pottery. My partner's a big cook. He says, go to the farmers market. You see a guy there on a Sunday morning alone. He's a good on shot.
He's. Here once, apparently if if if something ever happens to my wife, I'm just going to go stand in the middle of Air 1. I'm not going to lie, that was my playground when I lived here. Like I would go to Air 1 and sit outside and just look like a snack and just wait to see everybody come towards me. But this is this is the thing, though. So Mark's, you've never used a dating app, I don't think, Right. Yeah. And I've been off them for six
years even though I'm single. I just haven't used them for six years. So I have no idea what's going on. So that's why we're asking you about this, too. The bots I had, that wasn't a thing when I was using them back in 2017, you know? So many it's like overwhelming and you're like oh or you know Hinge hired it so Tinder had a $500 membership. Fuck get fucked to 500 dollar 500 for kinder that was released last year. Hinge hired their price.
I think it starts at 50 and it goes up to like 150. And that's I think and like, I think what a lot of people are seeing is like there's a misconception. Women seem to think like there's so many options and it's like apps are usually like 70% men. Actually, it's a predominant male driven app, but it's a lot of men that the women are not. Look, you know, it's like it's. All the men that are scumbags and. It's a lot of trash, right,
We'll just say that. And so I think, you know, there's also that kind of component as well is that there's a lot of there are a lot of people. It's not like, you know, when I met my partner, he was not my type and it's not a negative. It's not like he was not I wasn't attracted to him, but he's not the cookie cutter fucking same thing. I always went for that I think is what we is what I personally mean by like be a better buyer.
Like if you're matching with somebody and you're going on and you're like, oh, they're just hot. It's like, well, what do you think is going to happen in the depth of this conversation? And you can't be shocked when, oh, wow, you want the guy that's 65 blue eyes, finance, all of that stuff. And it's like, shocker, he didn't want to go. He doesn't want a relationship. He doesn't text you back and he's seen five other girls. Crazy could, I guess. Yeah, I didn't see that coming.
So I think that's also the element is like 90% are going for the 1% and then are getting so upset when it doesn't happen. But yet if we really think about the day-to-day, like when I lived in LA, don't get me wrong, there's attractive people, not to the extent on the apps that I was seeing where you're like, babe after babe, you don't walk around seeing that many people. And so I also think the apps have really caused this like just unrealistic expectation of like what the dating market is.
And you're like, babe, you're no, you're not fucking Blake Lively. You're not going to get a Ryan Reynolds. Like, let's also just be cognizant of like what it is that we're coming with and then what it is you think you're going to get. Yeah, you touched on two different theories that I I, I've had at different points. 1 is my primary one when I look at dating apps and I talk to all my friends who use dating apps and they're really frustrated with them.
The first thing that I notice is that I I think the dating apps are unintentionally nudging people in the sorting and filtering in ways that are not helpful. Yeah. One of the most obvious and common things is that we just it's what you just said. We don't actually know what we want.
We think we we want this list of traits in a person, but the the the person that we are actually end up attracted to is often completely different or the person who's actually good for us ends up being completely, completely different than that. You know, when I think about a lot of the, the women I've dated in my life, probably half of them I wouldn't have swiped right on right. It's like I met them through a
friend or I met them at a party. And it was over the course of multiple hours that I started to become attracted to them. And after a couple dates, I started to like, realize things about them that were really interesting or intriguing. So the, the, the apps skew that they, they mask that they don't allow you to filter for the correct things that actually work in a relationship. I, I agree with you about the skewed expectations. The bot thing is super
interesting. And I, you know, one thing, I just had this thought while you were talking. If you look at any sort of platform or social network online, anything from Facebook to Twitter to YouTube to whatever, there is always a small minority of people who fucking ruin it for everybody else. Like like. Definitely. The threshold of the amount of bad actors required to fuck a platform is actually extremely small.
You really only need like 1 or 2% of people on any given platform to be total assholes and and and terrorists to ruin the platform for everybody else. And I, I get the sense that that is what's happened with the dating app is that there's just a small minority of people who are really bad actors who probably swipe on right on 2000 different people and then are just like sending Dick pics and like sending offensive shit. And, and it ruins it ruins the experience for everybody else.
And. We also have to remember too, like what are the apps actually doing dopamine, right? You're a reward drug. Like this is a drug. I mean, I my ass is on my phone and I'm like, this is going to stop. Like you don't need this. And it's like, and I don't even you know, like how many times will be like you close the app just to open it right back up like 4 seconds later. Like I've the amount of times I've done that without noticing is concerning.
And so when we think about the dating apps, what I also really see, and it's like, I'd be curious your thoughts because you joined before and you're not on them. The almost like fetishization. And I want to say, but like this proclivity of these digital relationships, right? Like it's just there's so much emphasis on like I want to be texting and why am I not seeing their name pop up on my phone and why aren't they contacting me?
I haven't heard from them that like I either get when people are like quick to make a plan. Like I'm that type. We talked, my partner and I talked for an hour and then he was like hey let me get your number. Like let's go to dinner. Done, great, let's do this off the phone. Met this person, yay. But there are people that'll go 2-3 months with texting every day or like I'll get rid of a week. We spoke every single day. We had 4 hour fights, Facetimes
and calls and blah blah. And then he told me he doesn't want a relationship. It's like, 'cause digital nonsense doesn't equate to that person. They're writing a check, but that doesn't mean they're cashing it. And I see that not much with the digital landscape is that I think the, the apps allow you to get into this fantasy, right? Like I was hurt. I would be walking down the street and all of a sudden you get the match and it's like your heart is racing.
You're like, Oh my God, is he going to message me? And then he does. And you're like, I don't know when we're going to go back. It's just as high. And then leave it to my brain. I'm already planning our wedding, right? I'm already going into like, he's been to Aspen. Oh my God, I've never been to Aspen. I want to go there. And then before I even met this guy, I, I have created this
entire fantasy. So we can't be shocked that you're so gutted, devastated when it doesn't work out, when you've already planned your wedding and then this person doesn't even show up for a date. Yeah. So I think that's just that that grieve, like the sensitivity to rejection. And I get it, Nobody wants to be rejected. But I also think, like, that is part of life, right? Like, we have to toughen up. When you used to go out and approach women, that would walk off. Fucking sucks fucking.
Sucks. Yeah, it was. It was rough. Yeah. The, the texting thing is really interesting because it's, it is, it's a fat simile of intimacy, but it's not real intimacy. It's like an imagined intimacy. And you get to, you get to create this drama in your head, but real intimacy is messy and uncomfortable and kind of awkward. And you know, yeah, it's not, it's not what you see in the in, in the romantic comedies or anything like that.
It's not glamorous at all. It's not, it's really not what I tend to notice, you know, people who kind of perpetually struggle with their relationships. There's there's, I don't want to call it childish, but it is childish. There's a childish attachment to just worshipping romance and and like prioritizing it above everything else. When actually, I mean, romance is great, don't get me wrong, like big fan of romance, but it's not. It's not even near the top of the totem pole.
My friend Britt Frank is a brilliant neuropsychotherapist and she always taught me the love addict, right? Like the person that's addicted. She's like their biggest fear is an abandonment. It's intimacy. That's why they're addicted to it because you can just bounce, bounce, bounce. But true intimacy for like you're saying, I didn't feel intimate with my partner, not even just physically, emotionally, because we were texting all the time and I was creating.
It's like I felt that intimacy because he said something to me. It pissed me off. I answered and he validated me and I was like, I feel so seen. I feel so comfortable with you. That was intimacy. I feel safe to express myself and say you're being an asshole. Please don't do that. And he said, you're right. I'm sorry. I owe you an apology. Thank you. That to me is that intimacy versus this. We're planning the fucking stars in the sky. And we're talking about all these things.
And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. They want you to go and meet their family, but you still have yet to know their last name. Like there is a grave disconnect. And it's easy, right? It's fun. You get to write this entire novel that's not going to actually come out. I never thought about that before. Like apps enabling love addiction for romance addiction. Like I could totally see that. But it was, that was why a big reason I got off of them.
I think more of what you're talking about where people wanted that digital relationship and there was kind of this addiction to it. And I was always just like, we would match and I'd be like, do you want to meet? I don't want to sit here and text back and forth. And so many of them. No, no, no, I want to text back and forth. I'm like, I do not.
I just don't want to do it. And then and then a couple of years after, just within the last couple of years, I guess I've seen like ads for, oh, here's an AI app to help your dating profile. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Don't even it changes. Your picture changes your relationship. It writes your profile for you. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? This is what people are doing now. You know what's next? Oh, no, no, you know what apps are coming out now?
Because we were like, my partner and I were part of 1 and it shifted and we were like, we're out. We're not doing this. It's writing. It writes the messages for you. And like, he's just funny. I remember I had a client and he was not, he's like in his 60s and he, oh, he loved to date his 20 year old. And I was like, oh Jesus, like the oh, shocker that this didn't work out. And so we were on a call one day and we're doing these like, can you help me do my profile?
And so the way I like to work is I like type it out and I kind of need to think and I'll send it over like, OK, this would be a good prompt. I didn't know he was just copying and pasting everything I did. And so it's this beautiful, thought provoking profile. I mean, I did a damn good job writing this. And then he like in the next session, he's like, you know, I, I don't understand. I'm having luck on the apps. Like I'm getting so many matches and I'm like, OK, can you show
me a couple of the messages? And it's like this beautiful prompt that the woman responded to and it's just hey, sexy. I'm like, Oh my God. And it's like that words you can, you can mask it, right? And it's like, I think what we also need to remember too, because I hear this everyday of like men just say what a woman wants to hear. And it's like, so you're that unoriginal.
You think that he just knows everything you, specifically me, Sabrina Zohar wants to hear because like, maybe you don't. And I think what we really need to understand is like, come home to yourself. I'd rather be rejected for me as I am then be rejected for this version that I am. That's not even fucking me. Yeah, I saw there was a Am I the asshole Reddit thread the other day and it, it was super
interesting actually. So it was a guy saying that he, him and his girlfriend, every time that him and his girlfriend had a fight, she would go leave the room, get on ChatGPT, basically describe the fight to ChatGPT and ask ChatGPT for rebuttals and like arguments against her boyfriend. And then she would come back 30 minutes later with this like perfect outlined argument with like bullet point explanations of all the reasons why he's wrong.
And he, he said he was like, I, I've asked her to stop using ChatGPT and our, and our personal arguments. And, and she, she says I'm being sensitive and I'm, I'm refusing to admit that I'm wrong and all these things that he's like, am I the asshole? I was just like, holy shit, what world are we coming into? I'm curious what were the comments? I didn't look at the comments, but I I that's the concern. For me is when the people are like you are the asshole and you're.
Like no, no, no, what are we? I feel like I've my experience is that the the am I the asshole subreddit is like they're they're compasses usually pretty aligned. God, and there's some hope for humanity, but no, it's true. I, I see that every day of like even I've had podcast guests on where I'm like, man, your content's amazing. And then in person you're like, Oh, you don't actually know any
of this. Like you scripted the entirety of this, but you can't have an honest conversation with me where we're coming up with our own ideas. And that's that disconnect. And that's why my partner and I left the app we were working on. I was like, I want to teach you how to fish. We have got to stop just giving the fish because we're seeing it, you know, you start to look like Gen. Z is going to be that stops in 2027. That's officially like then
we're officially into alpha. And now what that means it's like, wait a minute. So we already are looking all right, apologize. Alpha is done in 2027 and then the next one. So already you're going fucking beta at this point or whatever is next, I'm assuming. So if we even just look at generationally, it's like, OK, millennials, right? We did a lot like there's the genome and the millennials. But then if I look between millennials and Gen. Z, it's a huge disconnect of
like, I don't owe you anything. I did a video that went viral instead of ghosting, say this. And it hurt my soul how many people were like, I'd rather ghost than get this. It sounds like HR And it's like, yo, dude, it's just a fucking blunt and direct. Hey, I'm not interested in pursuing this. Take care. I don't want to waste any more of your time. But that one girl said, why would I send that if I would be so heartbroken to receive that? Why would I want to hurt someone
else? And I was like, I'm sorry what? And it's just we are in, we're getting more and more fragile of this. Like I can't handle anything on my own, the Internet, someone else needs to validate me and we're getting further away from ourselves. I've used ChatGPT before. That shit does not know what the fuck they're talking about all the time. So if you're basing your arguments on. That ChatGPT is literally the average of all human experience, therefore it is mediocrity embodied so.
If we just put it in the code, it's. True, like if we, we rely on a crutch like that, then we want, we can't be surprised why human connection is becoming sparser because we're, we're attaching. We're not connecting. It's like, I need you. I don't want you. I, I have to have you in my life. It's fear, it's anxiety. I need this versus a connecting is like it's slow. It takes a minute. I need to know who you are. I need emotional safety, I need
intimacy, I need trust. And I think we've really gotten further and further from that because I mean, let's also be honest, I'm 34, I don't have kids. Not sad about that by any means. We are now in a generation where that's cool, right? I could be in my mid 30s and not have kids. But then we're between socio like what is the world and the Internet saying and the body count conversations and the red pill bullshit. It's like we have a lot of noise.
So if ChatGPT is where you're getting the sum of all the parts, I'm a little worried. Yeah, it it the point you brought up about the emotional safety ISM I definitely see that more in Gen. Z, but this prioritization of emotional comfort over anything else that this idea that if something is upsetting or hurtful or uncomfortable, then that protecting you from that sets priority above everything else. You know, fuck honest communication, fuck sharing your values, standing for something,
having integrity. If it if it makes somebody uncomfortable, then it it shouldn't be done. I, I think that it's just such a wrong way to approach life in so many ways. And I think relationships in particular, more than anything else in life, fundamentally requires discomfort, upset, being willing to upset somebody and be upset by somebody and be able to handle that maturely as an adult and not just like fucking fly off the handle.
And it, it, it worries me. I mean, this, this kind of this precedence of emotional safety ISM I, I, I see it having pernicious effects all across society in a bunch of different domains. But relationships literally can't function if you're not willing to be uncomfortable around somebody else. Like that is in many ways the definition of intimacy. Is 100. Percent being willing to be uncomfortable around somebody. Else yeah. And just be messy and ugly and
yourself, right? And be loved for that. Well, it's the same as like, there's this artist. I don't fucking know who these people are. I don't keep up with like the pop culture stuff. But she cancelled her tour because like she was having a she said my mental health needs it. And then when you actually look by like, what do you mean your mental health needs? Like it's your fucking job. You're a musician, like you need to go out.
And it was because she made a statement politically and people gave her backlash and she said, well, you know, it hurt me. And it's like, I'm sorry, what fucking alternate reality are you in that I could just say, well, I don't like what you said to me, so I'm just going to cancel my my into everything. And that's OK. And then you see the polarizing, some people attacking her saying, how could you do this?
And then there's people defending her saying, well, she's protecting her mental health, but then we have to look at where's the line, right? Where are we so disconnected from reality that we're like, what do you mean your mental health? And then when is it like, hey, I think you should prioritize your mental.
Health, right? I mean, there is, yeah, there is a certain point where cancelling your own job, harming your career, fucking over thousands of fans to protect your mental health is a sign of poor mental health. Like, like we. Need better advice as a
functional. Person doesn't protect their mental health by just like ending everything they're doing in their life and sitting at home on the couch and bed rotting or whatever, right And. It's like, and that's, and to your point is like, and that's relationships. Now, is this like, I don't want to deal with this, this is hard. I don't like it. I'm uncomfortable. And it's like, yeah, but that's how you grow.
I, I really feel like we've, we've overcorrected as a culture and, and that like, if you look 50 to 100 years ago, everything was like, toughen up, stop complaining, you know, just get on with it. You know, it's just like trauma everywhere. And people are like burying it, suppressing it, you know, pushing it down. And I think, I think we've gone too far to the other side today where it's like, I'm uncomfortable. I'm not going to go to work today.
Yeah, like it's hot. I'm just not going to go outside and you're like, what? Just go for the fucking walk. Like just do something 100%. And it's it's it bums me out because I think, and that's personally why I think like when I came out creating content, it was different, right? It's because I'm the first to be like, oh, wow. Oh my God, that guy treated you like shit. OK, what was your part in this? And it's like this. Well, what do you mean? My, were you blaming me?
Never said blame, never said shame, never attacked you for it. I'm asking for accountability because that's what for me, that's what changed my fucking life was when I stopped blaming my external. It's happening to me. You know what's happening for me, a girl, open your fucking eyes and start to see the lay of the land. Because if I didn't lose everything that I lost, I wouldn't have gained everything
that I gained along the way. And if I had stayed comfortable and stayed safe, I would probably still be living in my mold ridden apartment in Venice. Really, really sad. And probably health getting even worse. We heard all about the mold ridden apartment before we went live you. Guys are on this journey with me. That's another podcast. It does go back to the agency thing you were talking about, though. That's the main part.
And so I think, yeah, so we're landing on dating apps somewhere in between, it sounds like, even though we just shit all over them for the past 15 minutes. I think there's a, it's a blessing and a curse, right? Like I think you can win and you can lose, but I think ultimately at the end of the day, if I can succinctly say this, regulate your nervous system, do the
fucking work on yourself. And it's a, it's in addition to it's not instead of and too many people put everything on the app and it's like, yo, use it passively. Allow it to be on your phone like every other app that there is, but it doesn't define you. And I think that's we need to remove the importance we put on these apps for us to be able to interact with these apps appropriately. I, I wonder what a functional dating app would actually look
like. You know, the, the price increase I find intriguing because allow me to defend it for a second. It, it creates a barrier to entry, right? So a lot of the, the riffraff and the poor actors and the bots and everything, if it's 50 bucks a month, it's not going to be worth it for those people. Whereas the people who are way more serious and actually are going to put a lot of conscious thought into it, they'll probably be more likely to spend that much money.
I also just imagine that like some sort of universal catch all dating app probably isn't possible. Like you probably need to segment it in certain ways. So you need to segment people by communities or religious beliefs or backgrounds or, you know, whatever. That's why that niche apps I think are. Are well and but are you guys familiar with those are we dating the same guy Facebook groups. Oh yeah, I've. Heard. I was. Like let's let's just even touch on that. It's the same thing.
I feel about that is like when I was creating my dating app, we were like, I want to be intentional daters and people would write and go, well, you know, you shouldn't let people on there that like do this. And it's like, OK, but here's the thing. That's your perspective, right? This person did all these things and I'm like, but I could talk to 20 other women that maybe they dated and maybe that wasn't their experience. Who am I to say, Mark, you're
not allowed in? Nope. Because you're not intentional enough. And it's like, well, just because I said I want a relationship didn't mean I want one with Drew. That could mean I want one with someone else. Where is the line? Right? And so I think if we niche love the niche of like, hey, it's for this where it becomes blurry. Is this like same thing as those Facebook groups? I think I get it.
I understand why they exist. But I also on the other side have a huge issue with them because some people have lost their jobs. And it's like, why was he losing his job? Because you guys had a fight personally at home. And I think we, you know, when we're trying to control too much, like I think if we can niche it, like, listen, there's a sugar daddy website. Good go. That's where you go for this. When it comes to the dating apps, I think you're right.
If we make this one-size-fits-all, everybody fits in here. It's like, well, they don't, but then I'm like, OK, how can we make this about more intentionality? OK, well, what if you're just have money and you could buy into it? And it's like, you know what, it goes back to I got to trust
myself. I got to trust my gut that if I see Mark on the app and I'm like, he paid on here, oh, wait, I'm not going to assume that he's here for the right reasons and I'm not going to assume that he wants me like that. I'm going to go and say, hey, it's just another way to meet somebody that might be like minded. I think you see what I'm saying? It's like we got to, I love all of these things. We got to also be put cognizant of how we're interacting with them too, because I think that's
90% the battle, yeah. 100% Yeah. Well, cool. Let's take a break. Sure, this podcast is powered by 1 Skin because let's face it, aging kind of blows. And if you don't want to look like you've been slapped around by a dirty old catcher's Mitt, well, a skin care routine is
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We do. We have one in particular from Lauren on YouTube and we've touched on a few of these themes already, so we can kind of tie this all together. I think it was a very long question, so I've edited it down. So Lauren, I hope we're. Haven't you noticed relationship questions or like small books? Dissertations and. That's especially through emails, but this one wasn't even a YouTube comment and it was pretty long, but it's a good one.
So Lauren says I'm 29 and have been single for six years after working through codependency issues from past relationships. Now my standards are so fucking high but I'm frustrated with the dating scene as most men I seem to me are immature or irresponsible. A lot of them seem to want a mommy, not a partner, and the few men that I have clicked with don't want long term exclusive relationships.
How do I stay patient and optimistic while searching for a genuine, compatible partner without feeling disillusioned? I think there's probably a larger question of expectations in here that we can hit on to. I was about to say now here, thank you for writing in and we appreciate all this. And I say this with love. There's a grave fucking
disconnect. Oh, all the guys that you like, oh, they don't want the things that you do, but yet these other people you're not interested in, there's a disconnect because that if you're what are you attracted to these people that don't want the same things as you, right? You've done all this work, right? And you're showing up like that. What questions are we asking on the first date? Are we gauging consistency?
Consistency doesn't mean for all my girls that this guy texts you every single day at the same time. That means reliability. Words and actions are aligning. So we really want to start to like zoom out a little bit. And for me, I would look and go away to have some holes here. But in general, how do you stay hopeful in things? It's like, OK, well, this is part of doing the work.
Like you had said earlier about like the mental health comment, when you do the work, you know, there's a lot of people that aren't and that you understand that it's not something personal. And that, yeah, if I'm going to be going out and dating, I know I might be something unique and different, but I also know that that person exists out there. And so I'm not going to be upset if it doesn't workout with these schmoes that I'm meeting on the Internet.
And I think that's that expectation management that we were also talking about of I get it, hey, it's frustrating. You can feel upset, like please have it be annoyed. But we also have to remember that doesn't mean that tomorrow you might not meet somebody. And so if you're disillusioned and you're going out and it's always, well, everybody wants a mommy cognitive bias, we have to start to look, what kind of buyer are you being then? And who are these people you're
going out with? To me, the the red flag is, is every man I connect with doesn't want to settle down, have a long term relationship and it's like, well, why are you connecting with those? Like what do you what to use your language? What are you shopping for right? Maybe you should try to connect with a different type of person. Well, usually too, it's like, let's think about it. Those guys that don't want the relationship. It's like, let me guess, he was charming, he was really lovely.
He was not super emotional, was a little bit more reserved. It's like, yeah, because this person does not want that, so they're not letting you in. And that's where I'd be like, what are you connecting on? Because are they really letting you in? But they're not being that vulnerable because they don't want a relationship. OK, so then. They're probably fun and exciting and they go to lots of cool parties and, you know, whatever. You know the type?
Oh yeah, yeah. I was like, I've probably been the type before. Too, but I was that guy for a long time. I tried to be. You. Know Andrew's like no well our. OK, simple question. Are expectations just too fucking high? Are they unrealistic? Are they, where are we? Where are we at with that? Because I think, you know, on on for men, it's like, you know, they're watching porn and they're seeing, you know, they're they think that's a relationship a lot of men do for
women. You know, the six foot 5 blue eyes finance guy. Our expectation is just completely out of whack right now. Well, we have such a thing too. Like when you have an expectation, you also need to fucking communicate that, right? Like you have to let, like, if I expect my partner to call me, I'm going to tell him that I expect that hey, I would need you to call me every single night, right?
Whatever, I don't know. So I think that's also The thing is we have these high expectations and then these high expectations are in an adult body and then the nervous system in the brain are in the baby brain. So I might have high expectations, but then I'm on a date with Mark and all of a sudden I go back to being a six year old who's talking to dad. And I can't ask for that. I can't ask for a need. No, no, I don't want to be too
much. OK, so you have these high expectations, but nobody can meet them because you don't know how to express yourself about them. Or the pendulum swings. We're so rigid. We're so like, if you don't do this at this time, the number one thing I hear, the number one fucking thing I hear everyday is it's it's not, it's just one text. It just takes 10 seconds and it's like, no, it's not. That's your expectation. Did you articulate to this person? Is that a non negotiable Nah?
I didn't think good morning was going to be something that was going to make or break your fucking life. And that's not how you're getting to know this person. What does it mean though? Those expectations are usually unmet needs because if I expect that Mark's going to text me. Sorry Mark, you and I are dating in this scenario and all right it's OK, but be be cute and so sorry to like if Mark and I are single. Again. Oh. God, we combined our. Podcast though this would be amazing I.
Didn't even mean it I'm. Sorry Sabrina, I'm not really looking to settle down anytime soon. Oh. God, you really are. Are those? Guys, you know we can go have hang out and have fun. Totally we couldn't like totally down to like kick it, just go with the flower right, But like I don't even fucker remember the point I was trying to make. But the horrible story is like, yes, if I expect expectations, if I expect you to text me every day, that's because I have unmet
needs. And if I'm not, if I'm not expressing that versus non negotiables, hey, I don't deal with inconsistency. I need reciprocity. I need fucking baseline of respect. I need these aspects. Those you cannot do without religion, politics, whatever. Everybody has their free. That's I think the difference. We need to understand our non negotiables and what are we not willing to settle for versus our expectations because you're like satisfy your own needs.
Yeah. I think one of the challenges for a lot of people is they're afraid to communicate the expectations because they understand that that's going to filter a lot of people out and they don't want to feel rejected. You know, it's like you, if you tell a guy, hey, I, I kind of feel like I want more communication from you. I'd love it if you texted me every day. And then he just says, all right, peace. You know, that feels really bad. And so I think people avoid that for that reason.
And then I think the, the other reason is just, it's people don't communicate expectations effectively. Like they, they, they'll say they communicated their expectations, but then it's, it's like a very blame, like what you're, you should do this because this is what I need. And if you're, if you want to be with me, you need to, to text me and do these things. And like that feels shitty as
the other person. Like there, there's like a a very important skill of communicating your expectations in a way that's like not judgmental, not blaming retaining responsibility for them. Like just, hey, letting you know, like this is important to me and I'd really love it if you did this and just leave the ball in their court and not have this like fucking drama explosion over. It what I hear a lot of, it's like self abandonment, right? I don't want.
No, no. If I say something because Mark and I are dating, if I say something to Mark and he like, walks away and leads, oh, well, then I'm rejected. And you're like, wait a minute. Being rejected by definition is being ridiculed or judged for who you are. OK, Well, that's a need. Let me ask you a question. Not you the hyper, the proverbial you. Let me ask you a question. When was the last time you expressed your need as a kid that you remember feeling like
this? Oh, well, when I would ask my dad, there it is. You're scared, you're self abandoning. Because if I take ownership and say no, no, no, no, like I can't ask that. And it's like, where did I learn that from? Who taught me that my needs are too much? OK, that was messaging I learned early on. And so that's what I mean by like we have these adult expectations in a child's brain and not to anyone. It's just really that going back into the amygdala and being
like, I'm scared. I don't want to say anything. So I'll just self abandoned and I'll do everything to be the cool girl because the cool girl is going to get him to like me. And it's like, Nah because it's one-dimensional. That's why the nice guy, nobody likes the nice guy. That's your personality I like. I find it so goddamn hot. Set a boundary, tell me no. I want you to stand. When my partner said no, I'm not going to text you. I was like, OK because. It's talk dirty to me.
Because it shows where I'm like, you care about your mental health and your well-being and you have, no, you're not scared to lose me. And that is really fucking hot when it's like, oh, so you do want me in your life. You don't need me in your life. Boundaries don't keep people out. They protect what's in. If I set a boundary with Newmark, that's because I'd want to keep you in my life, not because I want you gone. That's. Kind of what you're saying.
I'd much rather you articulate and get fucking rejected for that and be like, great, I'm not wasting my sleep on an emotionally unavailable salmon when there's a bunch of other fish I could go try to catch. I like salmon. Do you? I'm not a salmon kind of girl, even though I'm wearing you're. Wearing salmon. You're you're you're quite salmon today. Yeah. In my, in my dating book Models, I, I, there's a whole chapter on rejection.
And a lot of guys have told me over the years that it it it's one of the most powerful things for them when they read it. And it's basically reframing rejection as it's not, it's not about you. It's actually kind of the world's way of sorting the right people in and out of your life. And so if you tell a woman what you want and what you expect and she disappears, she's actually doing you a favor. She's preventing, she's preventing multiple months of an
unhappy relationship. And when you start seeing it that way, then it, I don't know it, it took a while for me, but when I started seeing it that way, it was like, oh, this is actually a good thing. Like the the more I express myself and the more women just who aren't interested turn it down, the better my life ends up. Rejection is redirection. It really is. I couldn't agree more. How many times, even thinking of my career, how many times I've got, I said no to someone, said
no to me on something. And then when you see it, you're like, thank God that didn't happen. That was awful, right? Like I don't want to be part of this because it really is if we can empower ourselves of like, hey, I used to tell my mom I'm like, no, no, here's my thing. Either get the fuck in or get out. Don't block the door because I will happily open it for you and get you out. If I know like we talked to bring a full circle to it. You said earlier people don't
what they want. And so if I know what I need in a relationship and here, you know, I ask people the time, like, what do you want in a relationship? And they'll just go like, I want someone to do stuff with. OK, what what stuff is that? You know, like go out, OK, go out. Where does this mean you're going to go out with friends or just alone? OK, Do they have their own friend group? I don't know, I didn't think about that. It's like, well, that's the type.
What kind of life do you want to live? I knew with my partner, I want someone that cooks. I need someone that helps with access service. And so when he our third date, when he was like, Hey, I made you lunch because I know you don't eat, you better believe I was like, Oh my God, because I was so clear on what I knew I needed and wanted that I could see it. And I was like, there he is as opposed goes to flandering.
I mean, like, I want the spark. And it's like, no, the spark is just your phalanges trying to get away. It's blood rushing to your extremities. So you could run, but the problem is they're attractive. And so but like if you felt like you did with the spark with a homeless person on the street in LA, you'd be running, right?
So I think we it's just that that's really like the meat and potatoes of it is like fucking learn yourself, understand yourself, know what you want and need and then you can actually show up as that and you're not scared of losing people for it. For sure. Well said. Take up space. Yeah, love it. Sabrina, where can people find you? You got the podcast, You're on social media. Where can where can people find? You. Yeah, we're gonna have Mark on the Sabrina Zohar show, which is
the podcast. Make sure you catch that one. Oh, I can't wait. Yeah, you're gonna. I who? We're gonna get all the mail feedback on that and I can't wait. And yeah, Sabrina zohar.com or the Sabrina Zohar show or Sabrina dot Zohar on socials. You can find me. Cool. Cool, awesome. Thank you so much for coming. This is so much fun. Thanks for having me guys. The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Bernie.
It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.