Sterlin Harjo, Reservation Dogs

would like sing Colors of the Wind to me. You might remember this conversation I had in twenty twenty one with doctor Adrian Keane, a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, scholar and author of Notable Native People. We were talking about the erasiar and invisibility of Indigenous people. We agreed that there was a disconnect between the way Natives are portrayed on film and television and the realities of Native

and Indigenous life. What I love about movies and cinemas that like, you can create a world, and if you do it right, an audience will go along with you, and they go into your world that you've created, and they give themselves over to that. And already had a leg up because the world I come from is so unknown. That's filmmaker Sterlin Harjoe, a citizen of the Seminal Nation of Oklahoma. He's the creator and showrunner of Reservation Dogs. It's an FX series about a group of Native American

teenagers coming of age on a reservation in Oklahoma. I mean, like we only talk about the warriors and the heroes and stuff. It was like, you know, what about the ones that didn't do shit or they were scared, like the diet because their horse hit a gopher hole. You know, like like what about them? You know, like that's also a part of us. Harjo's other work, including award winning feature films and documentaries, has also largely focused on Native

of history, identity, and culture. In Reservation Dogs, he strives to portray fully realized Indigenous books in America, a departure from the representation that some of us may be all too familiar with. My name is Charlin Harjoe. I am filmmaker, creator, showrunner of Reservation Dogs, and I feel that representing the humanity of Native people is a solvable problem. I think the work that you're doing is very tangible when it

comes to stopping the erasure of a culture. Can you talk a little bit about how your work is encouraging that visibility. We just tell the truth, you show the good, you show the bad, because because that's what's missing is we haven't been seen as human and humans are good and bad, and we have to show those sides and also tell a good story first, and then you're gonna get the activism or the real stuff that we're going for.

Right Like, as long as I a good story, like that's the trojan horse, right Like, you tell the good story and you get in there. I feel like I know how to bring us into the rest of the world. I was so proud to be able to do it because I feel like I had known how to do I feel like I know how to do it, you know, because you know how it is, like like as soon as you're an underrepresented person gets to tell their story, they don't want to share the darkness, they don't want

to share the blemishes. They only want us to look perfect. They only want us us to be you know, everything, to look amazing and like, you know, like like there's no issues here, like because like it's it's the pendulum swinging, you know. I mean, like one of the best things about this show is the feedback I've gotten from the community, people from all over indigenous communities writing me and saying, men, like my kids are finally feel like they're seeing something

that represents them. Like I mean, my dad said the other day, it was like you've given them an identity again,

Like we can be proud. And part of that being proud, I think is just showing us as flawed, beautiful human beings and showing that we face death and that sometimes we can't handle life and sometimes we sometimes we are upset, and sometimes we're not good people, and sometimes we're really good, you know, and just showing that, letting people kind of relax a little bit and take a breath, and that we don't have to be these historical figures that that fought and lost or won for our land and like

and it was just kind of shaking that off and like a good blues song, you know, it's like what is the how do you strip it down to what it is? You know, It's like, yeah, without all the

fancy stuff, like what are we? We're human, you know, and like you try to tell that the truth and the and the and the and the light and the darkness with that, and I think that that's what makes a difference, and that's what gets people to identify with it, and watching the show, I felt that I felt, you know, watching a show like yours, watching a show like Rami Atlanta.

I feel like there's other shows where they're just showing humans of cultures that have been have been in America and a part of America for a long time, but showing them as human. But I think one of the most interesting ways that you did in a Reservation Dogs was that you have a bear. One of the main characters, Jeans T Shirt, teenage boy. He is talking to one of his ancestors, his grandfather uncle cousin, who explicitly states that he's not one of the awesome ones. But I

fought bravely. Well. I didn't actually fight. I actually didn't even get into the fight itself, but came over that hill real real good like. But then the damn horse hit a gopher hole, fucking rolled over and squashed me. I died there. He was just the guy who who died on his horse after horse fell into a hole. I thought, what's hilarious was all of that? The inspiration behind giving Bear this very regular ancestor to guide him totally. I mean, like we only talked about the warriors and

the heroes and stuff. I was like, you know, what about the ones that didn't do shit or they were scared die because their horse hit a gopher hole? Like like what about them? Yeah, Like that's also a part of us. And I think one thing that's important about

that character. I'm glad you brought it up is what I learned because we had a comedy group Dallas Goals, who plays Spirit, We had a comedy We have a comedy group and we would travel around and we really learned like what works for non native audiences for native

humor and what doesn't specifically wide audiences. You know what I'm saying, um like because you gotta almost give them permission to laugh when it's Native stuff because they want to be like so like oh I find the same thing with black humor, but continue exactly right, like you gotta you gotta like oh like like oh I don't want to laugh, like you know, you had to give

them permission a laugh. And it was it was a taking the stereotype that like if I were to say, like like draw me a Native American, like they wouldn't draw bearer, they would draw spirit. You know. It's a delicate thing, like trying to get people to laugh at things that they're used to not laughing with or about or anything, you know. So I think that that character specifically was kind of works as that mechanism. I guess. Tell me a little bit about how you got into film.

You know. I got into college and I was at the University of Oklahoma, and I took an intro to film and video studies with this Hungarian professor named Misha Nadelkovich, and his like love for cinema was so contagious. And it was when I discovered that it was a language was when I was pumped, and like that's when I

really got into it. It was like, okay, I like when I realized it wasn't just pointing a camera towards something, it was literally like telling stories with the camera and using cameras and shots too, and music and everything all the senses to tell a story. I just really, I don't know, I fell in love and I didn't look back. I was like, I have to do this, you know, And and it's sort of that sort of coincided with me discovering that I was a pretty good writer. I

think I was always a good storyteller. I just was not confident in writing. But it was in college that I discovered that I could, you know, with a little work, I could write. College is the time that we all become a lot more self aware. I think that was identified most with my blackness when I got to college and I began to kind of express it and everything that I did, you know, whether it was playing music, talking to friends, whatever, it was like I had to

express my blackness. As you were becoming more creative and writing and enjoying telling stories, did you find yourself having that same level of expressiveness when it comes to your indigenous heritage. Yeah, I mean, like it was there's two things.

I mean, like, on one hand, like I'd kind of grown up in this community and I was hungry for things like punk rock and indie rock, and like I was wanting to express myself through art, and I was discovering artists and cinnamon and all this stuff that had nothing to do with my heritage or background, and I really just kind of dove into all of that. But, like you said, a couple of years of that though, when I started applying myself and writing and wanting to

be a filmmaker. Then I was like, oh, but this

is the thing that's unique about me. And then and then it was like, oh, now, then I like discovered rediscovered who I was and everything kind of came from that lens after that, and I realized that, you know, a lot of people don't have the leg up that I had, Like I have this like I mean what I love about movies and cinemas that like, you can create a world and if you do it right, an audience will go along with you and they go into your world that you've created and they give themselves over

to that. And already had a leg up because the world I come from is so unknown that it was a little easier. I felt like to bring people into this world that they didn't know, you know. So after that, I'm very similar to you. Everything kind of filtered through that lens. When you're making discoveries about new things that you love that weren't necessarily a part of your culture growing up, for instance, punk rock, but there are things

that you're introduced to that you love. As you become more in touch with your culture, do you look for the connections between the thing that you love and your culture. Oh yeah, for sure. And you know I like hip hop, I like punk rock, I like rebellious music, and I think that Indigenous people, you know, we've always been in a bit of a rebellion. It's like, you know, it's like there was always something to fight for to this day,

and so I connect to that. And you know, the show is filled with punk rock and indie rock and hip hop, and like the opening as you know, I Want to Be Your Dog by the Stooges, and it's like, you know, one of my favorite things, definding ways to bring all of that back into my community, because I mean it's there anyway, but it's like, how do I show that and express it? You know, I did not know that that was That song was by the band

Red Bull. Yeah, come and Get Your Love, incredibly popular song. Yeah, yes, it was on I remember as they're singing it, I'm like, this is from the Guardians of the Galaxy. What significance does have here? And then at the end when you show the band playing it, I'm like, oh my goodness, this is all of those happy little connections. I imagine that that inspires, inspires you to do more work to say like see there, look at these connections, understand how

it all comes together. Oh yeah, I mean that was one of my favorite things. It's like kind of reclaiming red Bone. You know, it's like the world knows who they are, but they don't know where they come from and who they really are. And it was like, I want to show that in this unique way as this

in this episode. A lot of times native people are shown, we're only shown in the eighteen hundreds most of the time, you know, so trying to show us in a contemporary light and how you know, we're just as influenced by all these things pop culture like everyone is, you know, like from hip hop to movies to um to clothing, I mean like style, you know, we're so one of

our strengths is that we were able to adapt. Like for instance, in my community, UM, we have songs that are really important and you'll you hear them being sung at a funeral scene in the show, and they are hymns. And those hymns were there are a mix of like the style of singing was kind of brought here by Scottish missionaries and it was called line singing. Well, then

you had free to African slaves. Next to that, there were also a part of our tribe with the Seminal nation, but also lived in those in the same area in the southeast. And you know, all this style of singing emerges and you hear it Enslave spiritual as you also hear in these Muscogee Creek and Seminal hymns, and it's a style of singing that they call it line singing,

and you know, it's a way of worshiping. It's a way of kind of singing prayer, you know, and all of those cultures kind of have a mix of that. And I think that that's a beautiful thing. Like that's what I love celebrating that, right, Like I love talking about how our culture is intersect I think part of our survival has been adapting, you know. I think the same thing for you know, Black people in this country.

It's like part of survival is absorbing things and culture and claiming it for ourselves, you know, and like as or just like presenting it in a new way, you know. And I think that's something beautiful about the intersection of cultures us. It's about survival. I think I am I am a Black Christian. I've been in the church my whole life. My father's an assistant pastor. Like, I'm heavily involved in the church. And I do remember that funeral scene where they were singing, doing the line singing. I

was struck by that part. I was like, this is very, very familiar. And I think that's one thing about the show Reservation Dogs is that it's it's very familiar. As soon as it comes on and you realize that the main characters are are basically on a quest to get out of their little small town. I was like, oh, oh, yeah, this is familiar, Like I know this story. Yeah, everybody can relate to that, right, yeah, And I like that

you use that in order to make it familiar. But then you you slowly start introducing concepts that I didn't know about, which is an episode two. You immediately start talking about Indian Health Services and subtly making these little statements about it throughout What are you here for? Come to a fight bosting my nose? I got some good ones, and now tell your mom, no, I didn't. You shouldn't

either patient doctor protocol or whatever it's called. Tell me a little bit about what your intentions were by teasing out the lessons that that me is not non indigenous person would learn from watching a show like this. We all know what bad health care is, right, Like, my whole goal is to be very specific show this culture, be very specific about the nuance and the differences and the little things that details that make it real. But

it all has an undercurrent of your universality. And I think that those two, the combination of those two things are what make people want to come back and watch the show, because I think when we're like young and we're activists and we're you know, in our early twenties, we want to yell, you know, we want like a

bullhorn to yell. But you realize people don't listen when you yell, and if you want people to hear, you have to find the right way to deliver it to them, like making a podcast, right, making a podcast, making a show, but also making a balance of like where I don't feel like I'm you don't feel like you're you're getting a lecture, You're just getting little tastes of lessons of healthcare disparities in America and Indigenous communities through a really

funny episode that all takes place at the Indian Clinic, you know, where Bobby Lee is a doctor and like all of these things. Yeah, So I think it's like something that I've been this a needle I've been trying

to threat through from a whole career. Most people that have an opportunity, especially when it comes to underserved communities and minority groups that are underrepresented, especially in how in TV and film, you don't necessarily know if you're going to get another chance at this, So you kind of just have to, you know, set your path straight and whatever happens happens. But you guys get a season two, Do you have a plan for us to have a long term stay with reservation dogs or oh yeah, yeah.

My friend Taikytt helped open the door for me and then he was like all right, you know, there you go. And I was like I have to swing for the fences, like I'm gonna not doubt myself. You know, we all have that in our heads where where that imposter syndrome like should I be here? Like am I supposed to be here? Like do I deserve this? I mean, you know that's something I've always dealt with and you know, and I've always as a as a Native person minority.

I've always fought any sort of I don't hand me anything like, and I've never gotten manned at something that I felt was racist. I mean, I've been told so many times like this is too native, we can't fund this, you know, like I don't like Native films, don't sell or anything. I never let that get me, man, it just fueled me. I almost wanted the hardest path because it's in. It was in my head from a young age.

My mom, I remember, we would get this. My tribe would give us a clothing voucher before school started, two hundred and fifty bucks to go to the mall and get yourself some clothing. And because it's tribal money, it's not untaxable. But you know, the people at Dillards weren't used to that, and my mom would just battle them and be like, no, it's non taxable. And if they made it sound like it was a handout anyway, my mom would be like, this is not a handout. This

is inheritance from our trial, you know. And so I always almost like subconsciously one of the harder, like like, yeah, be racist, Like I hope you don't understand what Native stories are because someday I'm gonna show you, you know. And I made all low budget films until this point. I mean, like you could have only made two episodes of Reservation Dogs with the budget of most of my feature films, you know. So when I got here, I was like, all right, I fought to be here. I

got nothing to lose. I'm gonna swing for the fences and see what happens. And I never doubted myself and I just went for it. And I think that that was key to having a successful show because I wasn't second guessing myself. I wasn't editing myself. I was just going for it. With the success that you're having with the show, how do you consider opening the door for other Native creators that maybe want to come after you? Do you have a plan for to have Do you

feel a responsibility to do that right? And if so, plan for that? I mean definitely. I mean, like I don't have the show without Taykott, you know, like like um him helping a friend down, and I've done the same. I mean, like every writer on the show, they're all Indigenous, and they're all friends. All of the directors were friends of mine that I wanted to give you know, their first TV shot or and one of them a directs TV already, but two others like it was their first

time directing TV. UM doing the same thing for the next season. UM. And then also I have no overall deal at ects now and part of that is me bringing okay, bringing in other folks. Yeah, so like that's honestly, like I think my favorite thing about what's happened is like I now get to help people with their projects.

And because I mean, for me, like how I always made my films and also how I made Reservation Dogs was it was not like a top down thing, like I don't like the hierarchy of Hollywood and how they usually do it. Like for me, it's just like you can't say that old Mike Sterling getting tracked. But like you know, I love the community aspect of it, Like I love like just how Reservation Dogs is kind of about a community. That's how I like making this stuff.

So with being with bringing in a lot more and working with other Native creators, you know, we're seeing kind of like an inflection point right now where the Native community is receiving a lot of artistic attention. These stories and perspectives have always been important, but what do you think makes them more important to tell in this moment.

Like with African American cinema and TV, you know, you had these moments like Boys in the Hood and things like that where it's like you're reflecting on your communities. I mean, like one of my biggest influences on the show was was Friday. Oh that's a classic ice cube Chris Tucker, nineteen ninety five. I love that movie. By all accounts, that neighborhood is supposed to be the ghetto and scary and dangerous, but it's you know, in Friday, it's like funny, Like it's not thriving, but it's like

a beautiful you know, it's a celebration. And there might be one house that's like an asshole lives in, but then the next one was like manicured and they're funny and whatever. You know, It's like, that's what I want

to do. Like literally, whenever I was designing the kind of the neighborhood of the of the reservation where they live, we looked at Friday, and we use more pastel colors and painted the houses and you know, like I think people's first inclination when I think of reservation is to make everything trashy, you know, because that's what we've seen

in the documentaries. I was like, no, Like there might be one house that has like a card in the yard or whatever, but then the neighbor's house is going to be manicured and there's gonna be flowers and stuff, you know, Like that's that's we're people, you know, We're in this moment that I see that I saw. I think with African American cinema, like Friday and all of that were like you had boys in the hood, You're

talking about problems within our community and everything. And then and then you move into Friday and it's like, oh, but this is a celebration. But also we're still talking about like our own issues, you know, like our own issues in our community, and we're talking about suicide and our own issues that we're facing. And it's not about how do white people save us, It's about how do we handle these problems ourselves? Like how do we address them? What is unique about the way that we address them?

And so I see us in this infancy in our storytelling and where we're at and where we can go is limitless from every angle. If our listeners want to get involved in help seeing more visibility within Native American arts and film communities, what can they do. Illuminative is a really good organization that kind of covers everything from education to entertainment to art. I mean like they really

cover a lot. And I think that that is My friend Crystal elcoh Hawk runs that and I think that I don't know that they're just growing and they're building, and they've really done so much in helping us be visible and also celebrating what's happening in Indian country. You know, follow him on Instagram Illuminative and they really give you a good broad sense of where you can go and who's all involved in the community. Thank you so much

for being with the Sterlings. Has been incredible. Thank you. Sterlin. Hard Joe is the filmmaker, creator, and showrunner of Reservation Dogs, and he's directed three future films, including Four Sheets to the Wind, Barking Water, and Mecco, and two documentaries This May Be the Last Time and Love and Fury. Season two of Reservation Dogs is coming later in twenty twenty two. You can find a link to his work and also Illuminative in our show notes. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank,

Research by David Jack, book by Lisa Dunn. Editorial support from Keishell Williams. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and our Executive producer is mio Lebelle. I'm Ronald Young Junior. Thanks for listening.